There Are No Girls on the Internet - Candace Owens Wants You to Think She’s Changed. She Hasn’t.

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

What is behind Candace Owens’ rebrand? Bridget explains Owens’ new playbook to Anney and Sam over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You.   If you’re listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment there or email us at [e-mail]!    Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media! Many vids each week.   instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc/    tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc    youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventures, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we, too, can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

We need to talk about Candace Owens because, and I can't believe I'm saying this, is she kind of making a little bit of sense now? So last week on her podcast, Candice called out President Donald Trump. She criticized Trump's attacks on Harvard University, saying, I never thought I'd see the day where I'd be rooting for a university over Donald J. Trump and his administration. But I don't recognize this administration right now. I don't recognize what's happening. So at face value, it sounds like she's kind of defending free speech. And yeah, you might be wondering, am I actually agreeing with Candace Owens a little bit? But hold up. Don't get too comfortable because this is not a change of heart for Candace Owens.

It's a strategy. Candice Owens, I think, is rebranding. And like always, she's using things like outrage and celebrity scandal to do it. In this episode, I dive into how Candice Owens is leveraging lawsuits, like the one involving Blake and Justin Baldani. In the fallout of the film, it starts with us to pass. package her politics for a softer, maybe less familiar audience. It's the same noxious content just with a new coat of paint.

I broke down her playbook to my friends, Samantha and Andy, over at the podcast stuff Mom never told you. We're talking about the one, the only, Candace Owen. Speaking of villains. No, I'm just kidding. Am I kidding? We'll see. So, like, I should say up top, like, I am weirdly fascinated with her.

What do you all have thought is somebody who is on your radar? What are your experiences with Candace Owens? Or do you have any? Mine are negative. Mine are mostly negative. But I, most of most stuff I know is more recent. And I didn't know a lot of what I know we're going to talk about in here. But I will say generally, she's someone I'm very wary of and that have a lot of negative associations with.

I will say, yes, I do know of her, of course. One of the things that I immediately put me on high alert is that she is one person that my racist, Trump-supporting backwards brother has used as a token in saying, see, we love black people. Oh, that is like, that has probably been the experience of so many folks listening. And I guess what I want to talk about today might actually answer why that is, because she is someone that people in my life have, like, cited or mentioned or like, oh, I saw, I saw Candace Owens talking about this.

And I'm like, what? Like, why are you watching Candace Owen? Why are you listening to her podcast? So, like, I am, like, weirdly fascinated by her. She is somebody who has a legitimately fascinating story and, like, where, like, from where she started to where she wound up, I just find deeply interesting. I don't want to focus too much on her, like, personal background. there are some pieces of her early story that I do think are important context for like understanding

who she is and sort of the role she has gone on to occupy in the world. So Owens grew up in Stanford, Connecticut. And while she was a high school student there, she was like racially harassed in a pretty gnarly way. A classmate left her a racist death threat on her voicemail that ended up turning into like a pretty serious local scandal because it turned out the person, her classmate that left that voicemail did so in a group of students that included the son of the then-mare and future Democratic governor of Connecticut, Daniel Malloy. So it got, it was really, really blown up

until like a little bit of a scandal. Candace got lots of support from the local chapter of racial justice organizations like the NAACP. And her family ended up suing the Stanford Board of Education in federal court for failing to protect her rights, which resulted in a $37,500 settlement. After that, she goes on to study journalism at University of Rhode Island before dropping out. So this is really the part of her story where I have to be honest, I see some parallels between me and her. You know, we're both black women who were sort of early adopters of the internet to talk about things like race and culture and politics. Like me, for her, that seems to have manifested in a lot of like low hanging fruit posts about, you know, politics, like dumb jokes, like, you know, the early days of blogging about politics online,

it really was, dumb jokes was like, and like stupid memes were the lifeblood of that. And so in 2015, she was writing blogs making fun of Trump's penis size to give you a sense of the kind of thing that she was writing about. Which honestly is something I would, I wasn't doing that, but I could see myself doing it. Right. I would definitely chuckle. Yeah, if I saw it. So some people might be surprised to know that Candace actually started her career as like a public intellectual or a public opinion, have, or commentator, or whatever you want to call it, as a leftist, like a progressive. In 2015, she was writing this blog called Degree 180, where she wrote pieces criticizing conservative Republicans, writing about, quote, the bad, crazy antics of the Republican Tea Party.

Something that she wrote in her blog was, quote, the good news is they will eventually. die off peacefully in their sleep, we hope, and then we can get right on with the obvious social change that needs to happen immediately. So you really get a sense of her as someone who was this like young Obama era progressive using the early internet blogging and things like that to really put her voice and her perspective into the world. Again, something that like, frankly, I can really see myself in. This is surprising. It is. I guess I didn't know her origins. I just knew when she came out swinging on the opposite end. Yeah.

Well, what's interesting about that, and I can definitely speak from my own experience here, is that I connected with a lot of her early writing when she was still sort of like writing about the Tea Party and blah, blah, blah, blah. But certainly nobody knew who, like, she wasn't like a known voice or a known name, right? And I do think it speaks to the fact that like when she switched up

her ideology and her perspective and what she was talking about, she got so much more attention. Like I like, as a black woman leftist who talks about, you know, lefty stuff on the internet, we are a dime a dozen. Nobody is really paying that much attention. But when you do the switchup, you really become a much bigger name and you get a lot more attention and a lot more engagement. And I think it's a lot more lucrative to be a black woman right winger than it is to be

a black woman leftist. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. humor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odin Kirk, to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. The worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right?

That's the name. The Harvard Yardt Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me.

I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Tolodano. our podcast point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup,

he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. he has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying.

He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.

We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was actually reading about this recently. is the shadow of Gamergate when it comes to the internet and how it looks today and how it's still, like, the impacts, just the fallout of it is still here. And that was a part of Candace Owen's story. Oh, yeah. So I am like you, Annie, Gamergate and everything surrounding it is my Roman Empire. It is the thing that keeps me up.

I did a whole series with Cool Zone Media about how GamerGate and just general harassment against women and women of color and minorityized people, you could draw a direct line from that to like our political and social climate today. Like this is the stuff that I am like making a stringboard about and being like, and then this happened and then that happened. And then 10 years later this happened. Like, this is my white whale. And Candace Owens was really like this was a GamerGate was really sort of. like, well, she describes it as like a radicalizing moment for her. So in 2016, when Gamergate was in full swing, Owens launched a Kickstarter for a project she called Social Autopsy,

which she described as a way to catalog the abuses of trolls and cyber bullies online. The Kickstarter for this project is still up today. Here's a little taste of Owens describing it in her own words. It takes a nanosecond, a mere push of a button to share our ideas, opinions and emotions across the world instantly. But for every cat meme your best friend tweets at you, or for every I miss you comment your grandma leaves on your Facebook wall, there are literally thousands of instances of hate speech being circulated online.

Because when communication happens through a screen, and when moments are experienced through a lens, a terrifying extraction takes place. The age of technology and social media has slowly disintegrated individual accountability. the consequences of which are devastating. So that should give you a little bit of an idea of what I mean. It's interesting because it really feels like a time capsule from a different time. You know, like hearing Candace Owens talk about how bad things like Hates Beach are and how it's dividing us is like just very interesting.

Yeah. Throw off. Like it's like, wait, what? Same person? Okay. No. So the plan for social autopsy was basically it was a project meant to like de-anonymize online commentators and then connect them with their real-life names and then real-life employers.

And it's funny because this is still an argument that people make when they want to restrict the internet today that like all the problems that happen on the internet from harassment to child exploitation material, all of that could all be solved if you needed like your government ID to access the internet. And so it's funny how these ideas, there are people pushing that concept today. And even, I mean, like, some people who are well-meaning,

but in my opinion, incorrect, are still pushing that idea. And so it's funny how some of these ideas never really die. They're just recycled. Like Candace Owens was talking about this in 2016 and here we are in 2025, still talking about it.

Yes. Yes, we are. But, oh my goodness. Speaking of things we're still talking about, another thing we've talked about a lot on this show, another thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, is the radicalization that can happen online. And Candice Owens kind of talks about this.

This is sort of her experience with Gamergate. So when she, exactly that. So when she came out with social autopsy, pretty much everybody hated it, right? Like, it was like a universal digital boo. or like thumbs down. And one of the people who was like really not into this idea was Zoe Quinn, whose name you might know if you know about GamerGate,

because she was someone who was pretty viciously attacked in Gamergate. So after all of the backlash from this project that Candice tried to put out into the world via Kickstarter, she herself was doxxed and harassed. And Candice actually blamed Zoe Quinn and other feminists for this harassment and started saying so publicly. You can probably guess who. who loved this and like seized on it. That's right.

People like Milo Yanopoulos, people who were promoters of Gamergate and like doing the harassment of Gamergate really hyped up Owens' claims that, yeah, it's the feminists who were the ones who are doing the actual online harassment, not, you know, these gamer bros and like right-wingers. It's actually feminists who are the bad guys here. And this event, Owens credits with her turn from progressive to being what she calls a red-pilled radical.

She says, quote, I became a conservative overnight. I realized that liberals were actually the racists. Liberals were actually the trolls. And so, Annie, you're exactly right that, like, she describes this as, like, an overnight turning point of her going from being a progressive who was collaborating with the NAACP and writing about how awful Republicans and Trump and the Tea Party Republicans were to, like, overnight waking up and being like, no, it is liberals who are the real. real enemy. I have so many thoughts because I don't remember, I was not a part of the GamerGate world.

Like I did not understand what was happening out there in the internets because I was case managing and like groveling in my own. Like, oh, everything is worse. But like her being docks and all this, because I'm sure just as many like people who were feminist and who were victims of GamerGate and such, there were more probably jerks out there who were like, no, we were definitely against this idea and harassing her because they don't want their name out there, which was what she was trying to do, right? So she just picked a group like, no, it's definitely, after she got so much support. Totally.

So my understanding is that like, and if folks listening are like, I was there to remember, as far as I know, this was like feminists having good faith disagreement. with Candace's project, and then Candice probably pumped up by some of these, like, right-wing bro gamer guys who were behind a lot of this harassment. And, like, we have all the receipts for that, probably pumped up by some of them, just, like, just, like, assumed that these feminists were the ones behind it. So, like, as far as I know, she, this was not a documented thing. But, you know, certainly, like, I was, like, pretty in the mix on the internet in these days.

certainly this feud between Candace Owens and feminists like Zo Quinn about Gamergate was something that like got her name into the conversation in a way that I don't think it had been before. And for a lot of attention seekers, not that she is, I don't know this person, I don't know Candace Owens in real life, but if this is what we're seeing, negative attention is just as good as the good attention.

Yeah, so it's so interesting that you say this because she's not someone that I would take at her word. I guess I'll put it that way. Like, I don't know how reliable of a narrator she is. However, when she says, like, oh, overnight, I realized that feminists were the real enemy and the people that I should be aligning myself were people like Milo Yanopoulos. I don't think that she's outright lying. But I think that what she's saying is probably a lot closer to what you've just said, Sam,

that, like, what she realized was like, when I was just a feminist online, I didn't get a lot of attention. but when I started publicly beefing with these other feminists, I was getting a lot of attention. These right-wing extremist types like Milo Yanapolis, who had huge platforms, started paying me more attention and giving me more support, giving me more engagement. And like, I think there's something to this idea that, like, I wouldn't necessarily say that she changed her ideological ideas.

I think that what she realized was like, oh, if I align myself with people on the right, that comes with attention. Again, this is just my opinion. I don't know her, but that's my sense. Like, I don't think that she's outright misrepresenting this shift, but I think it's not necessarily about an ideology so much as it is like, oh, like public spats and rage bait and like spectacle gets me engagement and attention and that can translate to dollars. Oh, right.

I can play this game. That's my. sense of what's going on here. I mean, it sounds like she was finding a brand. And we, like, she is a brand. Whether or not we want to admit that's the case, but she is a brand. And she's starting to hone in on this brand. And she's going to go for what gives her the most success.

Yeah. And this was successful. Like, once she starts doing this, you know, and she starts promoting right-wing viewpoints on YouTube, she had a YouTube channel called. red pill black, which like, I got to say is actually like a pretty good name. Like I got a credit where credit is due. It's like I get, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I, I like, I, I, I like, is like, I, I like, like, making turning points USA, who's just like big right wing media entity. And he hires her. So at this point, Candice goes from, like, a little no-name blogger,

blogging about lefty politics that nobody's ever heard of to like making huge viral videos that are getting so much attention where she's doing things like dismissing the 2017 white supremacist Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville that left Heather Hire dead. Alex Jones invites her to co-host some of his Info War shows. And again, like, keep in mind, these, I know they seem like fringe media entities and in some ways they are, but they get so many viewers. Like Alex Jones, at his height, was getting tons and tons and tons of eyeballs. She starts doing stints on Fox News.

So, like, that's a little more mainstream than Info Wars, right? And in 2021, she joined The Daily Wire with a ton of fanfare. Like, this was a huge deal. She ends up moving to Nashville. And when she does that, the state even introduces House Joint Resolution 350, a resolution in the Tennessee government to congratulate Candace Owens on relocating to Tennessee for work at the Daily Wire that reads, quote, whereas Ms. Owens has earned the admiration and respect of millions of Americans

through her activism in support of President Trump as a black woman and her perceptive criticism of creeping socialism and leftist political tyranny. Imagine moving to Nashville and it's such a big deal that like the government of Nashville makes it an official like proclamation in Tennessee government. And if she steps outside of downtown Nashville, she's going to get threatened. For sure. I feel threatened outside. I felt threatened in a lot of places.

But like, yeah. So, and as a person who was the only Asian person in a crowd, the tokenism is so loud. Yeah. I mean, that that proclamation, like, oh, like we're proclaiming that she's great because she's a black woman who likes Trump. Like, I mean, add to things like, this is one of the reasons why I think a lot about Candace Owens is like,

a kind of seductive quality that can come with being a person of color who is being uplifted as like some special thing, right? Some special one. And it's such a trap because I don't want to be anybody's token, right? I don't want to be anybody's like, oh, like, this is a black woman who's doing X, Y, Z. But I understand the seductive lure of that. And so, like, I don't know, I guess I almost sort of see Candace Owens as like a fun house mirror version of myself. Like if I were someone who was really moved or swayed by being uplifted because of these things that make me tokenizable, I can sort of see liking this.

And so I sort of see a lot of like of my shadow self in Candace Owens, I guess I should say, does that make sense? I probably sound... No, yes. No, I think I understand it. Because, like, my younger self, my younger self seeking desperately to be white, seeking to be accepted by white people. So when I, in high school,

not understanding the depth and depravity of white supremacy and how dark it is, like sitting there arguing, no, not arguing, but agreeing with my racist brother about the fact, yes, affirmative action is so awful. I want to earn it. I don't want to be, you know, giving special treatment because of my race,

and that's not the case at all. That's not the conversation at all. But because of what I've been fed, and the minute I said that, and he's like, see, she knows, she's Asian. Like, he literally said that out loud in being so proud of me for understanding white supremacy.

Like, in that way. But wanting to, like, liking that moment, now I look back with shame, but at that moment, I was like, yes, I'm one of you. Yes, exactly. It's so seductive. And if you, like, I was the exact same way

when I was younger. And it's like nobody likes feeling excluded or like the other or like they don't belong. And so in those glimmers where you do feel like someone is saying like, see, it feels good. And I think it's like doing the work of training yourself to really see those moments for what they are and not like being pulled in to the good feelings of like, well, this, I'm getting feedback from my brother that's making me feel accepted and that he sees me and whatever, whatever. but like, you know, you really have to do the work to be like, well, is this actually what I want to be seen for? Right. You know? Right.

I don't want to agree with you. Now I understand what I'm agreeing with. This is completely wrong. And against humanity. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with

They're between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group.

The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Frank. on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Huber me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

Plus, only IHart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeard. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reade. Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got to do that.

the ball like after you go through a training camp with that Isaiah you figure it out real quick get your ass up and down the court and you're gonna get the ball so listen to point game on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts you can have opinions you can have like a strong stance and then there's your body having its own program i'm dr mya shunker a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our

relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us LISICs. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if Candace Owens is pulling the best grift of all time and just taking all the conservative money. Like if that was the end story to this, I'm like, if anybody deserves the Republican conservative money, it's a black woman.

So I can't really eat. I hear that, right? Like, it's smart. I mean, it's not smart. It's like it feels like a betrayal, but for her on her individual level, coming in and being tokened to be on these multi-million dollar shows, because, you know, we know that Alex Jones made a lot of money from his hatred. We know that we've seen it. He talks about it. We know Charlie Kirk as well. Her coming in and taking their money is kind of like, you know, I don't hate it for you. Like, I hate what you're saying. Yeah. So I used to think, and again, this is my opinion. don't know her like that or anything. But like, I used to think, like, certainly she's playing these people. She doesn't believe this.

Now I don't know. Now I think she's like a true believer. But like, I go back and forth. And again, it's one of those things that, one of those reasons why I find her so deeply fascinating, right? Because like, like, as a black woman, I am tempted to like project like, well, certainly this is some sort of a, I mean, it is a grift. Don't get me wrong.

It is like, for sure, a grift. Like, she grifted. Can confirm. But like I, it really made, it really prompts me to look back at myself to be like, well, why am I like, why, like, am I low-key rooting for her? Like, what is this? Right, right. Like, you're the, like, you're not my favorite, but you're not the worst worst.

Exactly, exactly. I can't figure out where you are in this, in this spectrum. But, you know, on top of all of that, as we were talking about in Nashville being like, if you go outside of the city escape and no people don't know you, you're not going to get this love that you think you're getting from this very, again, white supremacist patriarch that you are representing and are trying to play for. Like, all these things, eventually, they're going to turn on you. Well, that actually happens in her story.

So, you know, when she's working at Daily Wire, you're thinking like, you know, she's got this huge gig, probably making a ton of money, should be smooth sailing. But there is a huge, messy public fallout just a few years later. So she's working at Daily Wire. Last year, there was this public fiction between Candace and Ben Shapiro, one of the founders of Daily Wire, the network that Candice used to be on. Now, it's not 100% clear exactly what caused attention between the two, but at least publicly, it seemed to be some kind of a reaction to the situation in Gaza. Ben Shapiro is Jewish, and Owens has said a lot of anti-Semitic stuff. Like, even before October 7th, she was going hard doing things.

things like defending Kanye West, but things really seem to kick into high gear with her anti-Semitism on October 7th. Now, it is important to make a distinction here that she's not, like, criticizing the actions of the Israeli state. She is getting into stuff like blood libel conspiracy theories, which is this anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that Jewish people drink blood for power and, like, other deep, deep conspiracy theories, right? Like she said that Judaism was a, quote, pedophile-centric religion.

that believes in demons and child sacrifice, and that people are waking up to the fact that pedophiles are in power. So she is saying some, like, truly out-of-pocket wild stuff. And then things start taking kind of a bet toward her employer. She wrote on Twitter, quote, no one can serve two masters. You cannot serve both God and money.

To which Ben Shapiro, comma, her boss, replies, Candice, if you feel that taking money from the daily wire, somehow comes between you and God, by all means quit. Now, I gotta say, like, I don't find myself agreeing with Candace Owens or Ben Shapiro much, but I kind of feel like Ben Shapiro kind of has a point here. Like, this is her boss and she is publicly getting into spats with him on Twitter. Not a good look.

Yeah. Could have maybe done that a little bit more privately. Yeah. Like, send an email. But like, that's the thing about Candace is like, Candace wouldn't be Candice if she did this privately. Candice wouldn't be Candice if she avoided this. Like, her career got a jumpstart from spectacle on Twitter.

So like she, that is like her bread and butter is like spectacle on social media. So it gets absolutely messy as hell and it's all public. Owens claimed that Ben Shapiro had, quote, been acting unprofessional and emotionally unhinged for weeks now and said that Shapiro crossed a certain line when you come for scripture and read yourself into it. I will not tolerate it. She goes on Tucker Carlson's show saying that Ben Shapiro was attacking her using ad hominem attacks. She then tweets that she wants her and Ben Shapiro to sit down and have a discussion moderated by this podcaster Patrick Bette Dede. Ben Shapiro was having none of this. And again, I can't say that I blame him like challenging your boss

to a debate, a public debate on Twitter, it's just like not a good look. So when she was like, debate me, bro, Ben Tepiro tweeted, Candace, I can see why you'd want to hide behind a moderator, particularly one who said we should rename our company, quote, the daily Jewish wire just yesterday. No, one-on-one Monday at 5 p.m.

We can sit down and have a healthy debate like adults and we'll live stream it on X and YouTube. Take it or leave it. So they're really going back and forth. And I got to give a little side note here. For what it's worth, this is just like my personal opinion as somebody who has been around the block and worked in media for a really long time. The reason I am not saying that the actual root of their disagreement was Israel or Judaism like 100% is because I just smell some kind of a contractual dispute here. Something about the way that they are going back and forth reads to me like Owens maybe had like an influence.

flexible ironclad contract that maybe she felt like she could make more money on her own and that she had to get out of this contract or vice versa. Maybe Daily Wire wanted her out. Something about the intensity of the public escalation with her boss just suggests to me that something else might have been going on. Again, this is just my sense. I don't have any inside information. It just seems like a lot to be doing. It just seems like a lot to be doing. But again, this is Candace Owens we're talking about the very definition of doing the most on social media, but that's just my sense. I feel like it's one again,

the fact that they work so hard on like the conservative right wing side that knowing that one person being Jewish and the other person being a black woman, I'm like, they're not on your side. They're like, they just are just like wanting

you to find it out. This is what they want so that they can retain more power. But you two, I mean, it's just is it ironic? I don't know. Or is it just sad? Listen, Sam. I was like watching this like get them like like I was like let him fight like I was my nose the asses love in every minute was like faving every tweet reading like you know how it used to be on

Twitter you could like go to like show show more to see like I was like I need to start from the beginning I was eating it up the novel and again like obviously Candace has hit on something because like these this public spectacle these public spats even with her employer they do generate engagement. Like she's, she's, she's not new to this. She's true to this. Like, she's been using this kind of thing to get negative attention to boost herself for a very long time, and she's very good at it. So that seems to be like the red line here was when Rabbi Shmuli Boutich criticized Owens for her defenses of Kanye West. Owens then liked to tweet asking the rabbi if he was, quote, drunk on Jewish blood again. A few days later, Daily Wire,

and Candace Owens officially ended their relationship with Owens tweeting the rumors are true, I am finally free. Just there's so many things that I like, there's so many things to this level of conversation that, yes, it is just like the song Francesco Ramsey did with like that lepers would eat your face or you know,

like they didn't think of the, you know, and I'm like, yeah, but at the same time, with the way she ended, it does sound like it was a whole play to get out. I just, I mean, like, I don't know, but like, she had to, like, there is no way that Candace did not think that, like, she was putting her job at risk, right? So I just do not buy that she was like, I'm going to be, I just, these are my convictions and I can just say what I want and it's free speech and it'll be fine. There is no way. Like, I just, if anybody listening has the real tea, I just can sense there's something. else here. And it just, it gives contract dispute to me. That's all I'll say. So this is where the

story gets interesting to me because she kind of fell off of my radar after this. I was like, oh, I guess she's out at Bailey Wire. Hadn't really heard much from her. I guess she's like doing her thing. And it wasn't until I was trying to make sense of the dispute between these two Hollywood A-lister's Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni that she popped up on my radar again. So I got to give a big PSA. This is not meant to be a definitive breakdown of what is happening with Justin Boldone and Blake Lively, which probably could be like its own episode. It is not a situation that I have followed super closely.

So I am like not the right person to dig in on all of that. I don't have any kind of like take or anything like like I like it's just not a it's not a, it's not a situation that I am super read in on because it's a little bit like complicated and I can't quite follow it. But that dynamic where I'm like, oh, I don't really know what's going on, but I'm sort of like casually trying to find out. That is actually how Candace Owens got back on my radar. So do you all know what's happening between Blake Lively and Justin Baldone's is something that's like Ben Ayl's radar? It's been against my will?

Literally today I was like, thank God I haven't heard anything about Blake Lively and Justin Baldone. And then you send the outline and I was like, oh, here we go. I feel like everything I've learned about it has been against my will. I'm like, why do I need to like, it's just like not something. I don't know. It's just like not. I mean, in the end, because they were trying to compare it to the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard case, which I'm like, yo, back off.

There are so many things that the implication of that alone makes me think I don't want to take this seriously because it's not to that level. We have this conversation because, like, we spoke very quickly before it blew up to this, like the very beginning of the conflict, mainly talking about how domestic violence victims and survivors really were offended. by the way that the movie, which is the center of this controversy, was portrayed. And then how the ad marketing went for it and made it all girly, these good times, all these things.

That they were like, this is really kind of offensive. Like this entire language of something that is very serious, and people have taken very personally and have like a lot of familiarity with and trauma with. And then it felt like flat. Especially, like, with how it is now, especially because it's no longer about the movie. No.

But, like, it was, we took a small take on that and why romanticizing domestic violence is such a problem in Hollywood and just in our environment in general. But, like, this was way before everything happened. And the back and forth and back and forth, I will say there's a lot of disdain for, like, lively on my feed. Again, I did not choose this. Okay, so it's so funny that you say this. I have experienced the exact same thing. So if folks don't know what we're talking about, if you are like Annie blissfully unaware of like what is going on, it's a situation that's like a little bit complicated and it's ongoing. But it's actually like a pretty interesting story and it does include a lot of things that I am interested in, like how celebrities use social media, how easily social

media platforms can be like weaponized for or against a specific person. Email correspondence where people make themselves look terrible in writing because they clearly do not expect these emails to be like in a deposition or in the New York Times. That is my personal favorite thing. Nothing. Whenever it's like, oh, we have the emails. I'm like, I'm going to read every single one of them. Like, please continue to put your wrongdoings in emails and in writing so that I might know they can read them later in a deposition. So like, I do think that folks should like, if that seems like the kind of situation that you are interested in, like, it is a meaty situation. So, like, definitely listen to podcasts about it or whatever.

But for our purposes, a quick and dirty summary of what's going on is that Blake Lively and Justin Bledoni were in a movie adaptation of the popular Colleen Hoover novel called It Starts With Us. In December, Lively filed a legal complaint against Paldoni, accusing him of sexual harassment and starting a smear campaign against her. Now, he strongly denies that and has sued in response. Both camps are releasing information like text messages and emails and, like, videos and voicemails to make each other look bad. So the case has turned, I mean, kind of similar to the Johnny Depp Amber Heard thing.

It's one of those situations that has turned into like an ink block test that changes depending on what version of the story that you buy. In version one, Blake lively was being sexually harassed on set by this like fake feminist male ally who was actually an abuser. in version two, Blake Lively is like this egomaniac who is using her star power and like A-list celebrity network like her husband, Ryan Reynolds, from those Deadpool movies, to control the narrative around her being a nightmare on set and steamrolling everybody else on this project. So, Sam, like you, kind of similar to the Johnny Depp and Amber her thing in some ways, I think depending on what silos of the internet you are in, you might be algorithmically being given. in the idea that the public sentiment leans one way or another. Like on TikTok, for whatever reason, my TikTok algorithm thinks I hate Blake lively and that I want to see like lots of videos like pouring over every nuance of the ways in which she is a fraud, which is not true. She's not someone who like I spend really any time at all thinking about. But it's interesting that like

the algorithm thinks like, oh, this is somebody who hates Blake lively. Right. I agree. For some reason, I am getting all of the tea on all the awful things that Blake Lively is and all the people who hate her and why they hate her. I'm like, I have never once. I don't know if I've ever seen a Blake Lively movie. I don't think I have. If I... Sisterhood of the traveling pants? No. Okay. That's usually the one people know, like that or I will say, say whatever you want about Lively. The movie A Simple Favor slaps. She's great in that. Did you get the tea on how much they hate each other on that? What? Because that's what on my feet do.

I did see an interview where, who is their co-star in that? Anna Kendrick, right? Anna Kendrick, where they were asking her about Blake Lively. She does have a very weird response. Apparently they hate each other. That's what I've understood. That's what they're telling me, because they don't ever show up together on the red carpet. So when I say my feed really feeds into the fact that I must hate Blake lively when I don't know this person.

And like, not that I know any celebrity like that, but I'm like, But I've never at one point have I looked her up or like she's not on my feed. I don't look her up on my like searches. I guess the one time it was for that it ends with us. Damn it. Every time I research something for the show, it messes me up. But anyway. Yeah.

But yeah, no. That is, I'm like, I guess we really don't trust Blake lively. We being a TikTok. Yeah. My TikTok, FYP. The same as you, like, I was trying to get to the bottom of, like, what was going on with this Justin and Blake thing. And one of my cousins, who I would, like, lovingly describe as a normie and that she's not, like, super online. She's not, you know, deep in the depths of, like, extremism or anything like that, like, the way that I am.

My cousin is like, oh, there's this black girl journalist who has really been following the story and breaking it down. We will tag you so you can figure out what's going on. And that journalist was Candace Owens. And I was like, what? I could I could not believe that my cousins who were like not at all. Like there are not people who are like pouring over the minutia of what's happening on the internet and extremism the way that I am. Like they're pretty offline.

Whatever. Like I was like, how did you even get Candace Owens on your radar to be like listening to her podcast or watching her YouTube? And the reason is because she has introduced herself to a brand new. subset of listeners and audience by covering this Blake lively thing. So her coverage very clearly takes an anti-Blake stance. As the cut put it in a piece called Candace Owens has gone mainstream, quote,

The right-wing commentator's coverage of the Blake lively Justin Boldenie case has reached millions of viewers. Owens' podcast was hours and hours of analysis of the case. Deep dives into court filings, tabloid news stories, even Ryan Reynolds' recent appearance on Saturday Night Live, Life's 50th anniversary special. She's really been able to go in and pinpoint discrepancies in some of the things Blake Lively has said, rather than having us go through it on our own, one listener says.

Though she recognizes that Owen seems to have a pro-Baldani bias, she doesn't care. Candice is urging us to look past the fact that this is not a feminist issue at all, that it's about getting justice for whoever is being wrong. She's uniting the left and the right. So, I mean, it's just like, it is, I mean, on the world, one hand, it seems surprising that this, like, celebrity story would be the thing that, like, would galvanize an audience of mostly women and introduce Candace Owens and who she is and her ideologies and all of that to a new audience. But on the other hand, like, that's pretty

much exactly what they do, what they did at the Daily Wire. Like, nobody was more obsessed with celebrity than people like Ben Shapiro. They loved, like, taking down woke Disney, woke Star Wars. Like, he had a big feud with Meg the Stallion. and Beyonce, like, just because it's negative doesn't mean it's not fandom. It's just like going in the other direction. Right. Actually, we knew we need to say he had a one-sided be fluent because they did not. Like, it just makes me laugh.

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You know, the other part of this with as much as my algorithm wants to show me all the anti-Blake lively stuff, as well as all of the controversy, because yes, I would get updates about the SNL thing about how everybody snubbed Ryan Reynolds. I was like, did they? Okay. But like, interestingly, I did get a lot. content, not from Candace Owens, but other creators reminding me, and everybody listening, that Candace Owens is a right-winged fanatic and that they need to be wary of the information

she's giving about this specific case. Yes, so I think that's, like, why I wanted to make this episode. This is a general reminder of who Candace Owens is, and like, we all love celebrity gossip. I know I do, but, like, let's just remember who she is and the source and, like, she might want to rebrand herself, but let's just keep it at the forefront of our minds who she is and what she's about. And like, she really has exploded in popularity from this coverage. You know, it's been attracting a lot more viewers beyond her normal right-wing extremist base like you were saying, Sam. It's like Normie's like my cousins, my cousins who might not have any idea who she is. They just think she's an entertainment journalist. All of this has meant

explosive growth and engagement for Owens. Here's how the cut put it in that piece. Since Owen started covering the Lively Baldoni case, her YouTube channel has exploded in popularity, allowing her to attract a much larger fan base than the audience of hardcore conservatives she has amassed over the years. Each episode about Lively and Baldani racks up at least 1.5 million views. In the past month alone, Owens has amassed more than 450,000 new subscribers on YouTube, and her total video views have quadrupled since this time last year, according to data from the analytics platform Social Blade. Over the past three months, her audience on YouTube has also started skewing 65% female, according to data provided by a spokesperson, a marked shift from her past

fan base. So this has all been great news for Owens and where her audience used to be like men, you know, like probably like your brother, right? Like right wing men. By covering this story, she's really attracting a lot of women. Oh, my stomach kind of hurts. It is really interesting that this came in with GamerGate. as well because like we were saying, Gamergate was such a mess, and there were so many men who would be like, see, this woman agrees with me,

and I hate it because sometimes I'm like, I just wanna have a conversation about why I don't like this game, and now you've made it into this woman agrees with me. And now you're using it to attract more women to be like, see, We are correct and you are wrong. And so when you see things like this, where she started out with mostly men,

and then she's attracting like all of these women, I feel like it's worth asking, why do you think this took off for her, this story? So one, I will say that, like, K-Nus actually is pretty interesting, to listen to. Like, I don't agree with what she's saying, but she does, like, even when she was a progressive blogger, she does have, like, a point of view and a clear voice. And I think that really comes through in her coverage of Blake lively. You know, she has this way of speaking that

signals to you, like, oh, this person is really breaking it down. It's the same reason why things on TikTok, things like story time or, like, I'm spilling the tea, really holds people's attention. I think that Candace really does know how to do that. One, I think the second kind gets at what you were saying, Annie, that we just love massagony. And I think if that massagony can be laced with, like, a threat of conspiracy, it's even better, right? Like, social media platforms are always going to amplify things like massagony or massaginor or racism or transphobia. I think all of that is just baked into what it means to show up on social media. And I think Owens really, in a savvy way, takes that a step further by breaking all of this down, like,

She's explaining a conspiracy, right? So she's not just saying, like, here's my take on Blake Lively or here's what's going on with the Blake Lively case or, you know, here's why even like, here's why I don't like Blake Lively. She has this tinge of like she's uncovering this dark truth about this successful woman to take her down. Like, of course that's going to take off. People love that.

So the fact that she's not just giving information about Blake Lively, she's doing it in this way that's like, let's go back. through 15 years of footage of her speaking and dive through the minutia of everything that she's said on camera to highlight the discrepancies to show what a dark, twisted person she is. Like, of course people are going to love that. And I think that one of the reasons why people like conspiracy theories is that it really does allow for, like, fantasy and world building to become part of this coverage, right? Like, Candace's coverage of Blake Lively is wild because she is a truly wild person.

And so if you're someone who is just like wants to get the brain rush of like going down a deep rabbit hole whether or not it's true or whether or not it's like made up, that's going to be enticing for you. You know, as Owens herself puts it, she does not follow a quote, traditional style of reporting. That's putting it pretty lightly. She will amplify rumors, right? Like she once even read a letter that she said was from Ryan Reynolds's acting coach from when he was 12 years old. And that acting coach allegedly said, Ryan Reynolds. was obnoxious as a 12-year-old. Like, there are side characters and stuff.

Like, she really fleshes out this world of what she's saying. Is it real? Is it accurate? Who cares? Of course, people are coming to hear that tea on a story they're invested in. Right. I feel like, though, like this is definitely in her alley, in her wheelhouse, in that this fees into the Hollywood demons kind of trope as well as, like, her response to the Me Too movement.

I know, like, she was definitely anti-feminist in that movement as well. Like, this kind of all fees into that perfectly for her. Yes. So I think that's another reason why this has taken off, because I think that, like, there is something inherently inviting about the power of, like, taking a contrarian stance on something. Like, after Me Too, lots of women got engagement by taking a contrarian stance. Ironically, Blake Lively praised both Woody Island and Harvey Weinstein.

that last one is going to be interesting to note for later. So I think there is this attitude where, like, going against convention, if there's a convention that says we automatically got to support the woman in any situation, it probably makes people who are turning to Owens' as coverage and her breakdowns feel like free thinkers who are going against the grain and, like, willing to take an unpopular opinion, which feels good. Like, it feels good to think of yourself in that way, which then obviously connects to some of her more, like odious stances about trans people and women and Jewish people.

Like, if you, if you can get people introduced to the idea that it's like good to take an unpopular opinion when you're talking about a celebrity that people don't like, imagine how then you can walk them down to be like, and also don't you not like trans people? And also don't you think women to not have jobs? And also don't you not like Jewish people? Like it's like kind of all coming from the same place. Yeah. Um, okay.

So she's very engaging and she, it's sort of like, you know, here's some celebrity gossip. Let me give you this conspiracy theory and also kind of this hate on the side, right? But it's been very successful, but has the new audience changed her stances at all? That's a great question. According to Owens, she has not really changed her views despite her rebrand. She says, in terms of my perspective, I haven't changed anything. I've been anti-Meetoo since long before it was cool. When it comes to the...

Which, like... Oh, that's... What? As, like, feminist media makers, do you think, like... I just am so curious about that take of, like... First of all, just the assumption that, like, it's cool to be anti-Me2 right now. I mean... I don't know.

I just have a lot of questions. This is definitely that whole, like, red pill level of women trying to... to be the, I hate this term, but like the pick me, like, it's now cool because the boys like me. Like, it doesn't want it sounds like. Most women who have been through these processes or her survivors would never say. It's so. The level. People, not even just like survivors, people with conscious, like, like that in general, that's not a, that's not a statement you want.

That's not a winning statement. It's not, that's a good way to put it. It's not a winning statement. And when it comes to the success of the content that she's made around Blake Lively, Candace says that she thinks her new fans, especially the ones coming from the left, have, quote, just kind of gotten wise to the fact that maybe women lie just like men. And do you want to know what her next big issue is going to be, like after she moves on from Blake Lively? She's already signaled to what it is.

Oh, really? Because we're still in the middle of this. The lawsuit hasn't been such. But okay, what is it? She's got plans. But she's already looking to, I mean, like, it's not going to last forever. She's already got a sense of, like, where she's going next. Her next big issue is going to be championing Harvey Weinstein, the disgraced filmmaker

that really did kickstart the Me Too movement. She's been interviewing him by phone since 2022. Here's how the Hollywood reporter explains it. Candace's takeaway is that while Harvey Weinstein is an immoral man, he's also a victim of the justice system. Owens, a long time and persistent critic of the Me Too movement, of which the Harvey Weinstein saga served as the watershed, noted that, quote, I've always had faith in our court system, and now that's beginning to change. Now I'm wondering if our courtrooms have been politicized. I love that it's Harvey Weinstein being convicted that she's like, are the courts

not on the money? I, I'm sure there's some of the serial killers that she should represent as much. Like, this is, okay, to be fair, she has, she has her fingers on the pulse in that knowing this is going to drive up attention. Like, she is going to get the publicity that she wants with that. Like, how bigger could you go outside of being, like,

I'm going to go dig up Hitler and interview him and tell him I miss him? Like that's the, you know? I mean, she agrees with you. She said that she's putting out a series called Harvey Speaks. And when asked about it, she said, quote, it will explode the world. That's a direct quote. Oh, my gosh. She's a businesswoman for sure.

Yeah, we all have that to look forward to. I mean, again, like, she's sat like, I cannot deny that this is smart. Like, I don't, I don't agree with it. I don't think it's good. I don't think it's good for the world. But, like, I think she has her finger on the pulse of what is actually going to be projects to put out that will capture people's attention for better or for worse. And I think, like, she's really got something.

She's, like, cracked into something. Yeah. For better or worse, indeed. She has. And, you know, every time we talk to you, Bridget, we always talk about how the algorithms and so many of our social media, uh, pushes this content up, uh, and how we engage in it. So she's figured it out. She's figured that out. And I think you're exactly right. And I think like that's the so what of this story is that,

you know, Candace has so many other things going on. Like she's pivoting into other kinds of programming. She's branding out and doing a book club for paying subscribers and a fitness program. And I think that I do, I believe her when she says, that she's not, like, rebranding. I think rather she is trying to rebrand her followers, these new followers, many of whom are just, like, women who are interested in this scandal. I believe that the point is for them to be walked down a pipeline that includes her other extremist attitudes really using this Blake lively celebrity scandal as the hook.

And I think because celebrity stories, especially ones that involve women, are so often just, like, considered fluff. So a lot of people who care about, like, extremist content or ideology might not be paying that much attention to how these stories that you might see on Us Weekly are tapping into those ideologies and unleashing those ideologies on a brand new audience. And so I think that's especially concerning when you're talking about things like celebrity because, you know, when I'm reading celebrity scandals or, like, reading Us Weekly, I might not be primed to have my, like, BS detector on and up because it just is like you think of it as a less charged

space. And so I think that it really can be more dangerous because it lends itself to people being more susceptible to ideological content they might not be expecting without even realizing it. And like, I think it's very easy for Candace Owens to go from like saying Blake Lively is lying to like women lie, to women can't be trusted to like women should not have jobs, which I'm not just like pulling that out of nowhere. That is a stance that Candace Owens has explicitly advocated for that women should not have employees. that they cannot be trusted with work, despite herself, obviously being a working woman. So, like, basically, you just can't trust her.

She's not someone that you can trust. Don't let her rebrand as a celebrity journalist fool you. If somebody tags you in a video of hers to be like, oh, she's really breaking it down, just remember that she is trying to soften what it is that she advocates for and believes in. And, like, we shouldn't let her do that. We should really remember who she is and what she's about because she's made it very clear. Right. I mean, she's definitely on the same lines of what we've seen as a new generation talking about young men on podcasts and how they've been able to influence young men.

Like, this is coming in as influencing young women. I mean, just today I'm seeing a lot of content about how the younger generations are being red-pilled, as they would say, which is fitting here. And things like the soft live content being a beginning for a lot of young women, not realizing. that we're getting that kind of brand. We've talked about that with self-care. We've talked about that with yoga and the clean lifestyle type of thing. How that easily becomes a pipeline for the conservative right-wing community. And this is kind of that big story, except we see her branding and we know who she is.

But if you don't know from jump her stance, this is definitely a worrisome tactic. Because we know things like true crime and celebrity gossip. Like it's geared towards young women. It's geared towards women in general. And they also spend a lot of money. And they spend a lot of time in it investigating and taking part of it. So it's really worrisome. Like it is comical as we were talking at the beginning.

Like what is this to very concerning and understanding that when we let this stuff go, like you were saying that this is fluff content. But in actuality, it's feeding into a conservative ideal that becomes mainstream. And it's usually really dangerous. Yeah. So when people are like, oh, I just want to listen to my true crime podcast. I don't want to get political or I just want to read about celebrities. I don't want to get political. I hate to break it to you. All of that stuff is political. All that is all political. And like,

it is, it can be harnessed to shift attitudes of people who are being like, oh, this is not political into more extremist ways of thinking. And so if you are a savvy consumer of media or a savvy consumer of anything, whether it's true crime content or celebrity content or yoga or wellness content or any of that, we really got to be primed and thinking about the ways this content can be so easily weaponized to spread a certain ideology that we might not want to get mixed up in. Absolutely. Every time you come here, Bridget, I'm like, we have 15 million other topics we need to talk about. But thank you.

Thank you, as always, for coming on and taking the time. We love to have you. where can the good listeners find to? Well, you can listen to my podcast on IHeartRadio called There Are No Girls on the Internet. You can check me out on Instagram at Bridget Marie in D.C. And yeah, we'd love to hang out there.

Yes, and go do that, listeners, if you haven't already. You can find us. You can email us at hello at StuffoneverTold You. You can find us on Blue Sky at Mom's Stuff Podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff Whenever Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have a T-Public store and we have a book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, executive producer

Maya and a contributor, Joey. Thank you. Thanks to you for listening. Stuff One Never Told is production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, you can check out the Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your favorites. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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