There Are No Girls on the Internet - Clavicular is back; George Santos scams; Summer House tech drama; Instagram Hacked; Hot Girls Read™ - NEWS ROUNDUP!

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Starting point is 00:00:56 Why do I watch the walk up? That's like asking me, why do I breed? And it's beautiful. The guys are young and cute and fat. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force.

Starting point is 00:01:11 From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. Listen to American Football on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential, and it's also elusive. But now, there's a new and exciting way

Starting point is 00:01:38 to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Listen to Joy 101 on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. This is There Are No Girls on the Internet, a podcast where we cover technology, power, and who gets left out.

Starting point is 00:02:26 And this is another installment of our weekly news roundup. We dig into all the stories that you might have missed online this week, so you don't have to. We usually like to start each of these episodes with a little bit of casual banter. Well, today, I have a little bit of banter with some backstory. Because the level of restraint, I have changed. shown by not talking about Summer House drama on the podcast. Cannot be overstated. But I know not everybody watches Bravo like I do.

Starting point is 00:02:54 But now I have an actual tech reason to talk about summer house drama on this podcast. Jessica Gross published a piece in the New York Times called Stop Location Tracking Your Friends and Lovers. And I actually got producer Mike into Bravo. We have a whole group chat with our friends about Summer House Drama particularly. So Mike, you're like read it. You've been briefed. I am and I really can't

Starting point is 00:03:20 emphasize enough what a departure this is from like my attitude towards reality TV like I don't know, 10, maybe even five years ago. The extent to which I am now so deep in the summer house drama.

Starting point is 00:03:37 I mean it's yeah, and not just that like other Bravo shows too. I don't know what you've done to me but I am in it. But for people who aren't, Bridget, can you explain what has been going on with Summerhouse in 60 seconds or less? And I will set a time. Okay. I can keep it brief for folks who I know people out there are saying, I'm tuned in for a tech podcast. Why are she telling me about some dumb reality show? To that I say, we are vast. We contain multitudes. And the context is important. So you're going to set a timer

Starting point is 00:04:11 so I don't go on and on. Do you have an actual timer you're going to set? Yeah, you're already 14 seconds in. Oh, the timer has started? We could pause it. We can start again. We can start again. That isn't unfair.

Starting point is 00:04:22 Let me know when to start. Give me a sign. Okay, I'll let you know when to start. But yeah, you're right. I could imagine people being like, why are they talking about this reality show? It's supposed to be a tech podcast. But so much of it plays out on social media

Starting point is 00:04:37 where like the characters, not the characters, I guess, the cast members are like surveilling each other's social media and using that to call each other out for lying. There is like a pretty big tech element, but you are so much better at explain anything than me. So I'll give you a little countdown and then you will have 60 seconds to explain what has been consuming the Bravo universe. Okay. For the past like, I don't know, months. And then we'll get to the tech implications, I promise.

Starting point is 00:05:08 Okay, go. I'm ready. Okay. three, two, one, go. Summer House is a show on Bravo about a group of friends who stay at a beach house with each other for the summer. There is one main married couple that's sort of the tent hole of the show, Kyle and Amanda. Kyle and Amanda have a rocky marriage, and that rocky marriage has been the central focus of the show. Sierra, who is this impossibly beautiful black woman who is a nurse and a model, is best friends with Amanda.

Starting point is 00:05:37 Sierra had her own on-again, off-again relationship with this white guy from the Midwest who really looks like a white guy from the Midwest. Take that however you want to take it. Named West. West dumps Sierra. And Sierra navigating her feelings about this breakup has been her big storyline on the show for over the last year. Then Kyle and Amanda's marriage ends and Kyle and Amanda separate. Sierra, as Amanda's best friend, is really there for Amanda, helping her get through her marriage falling apart. And what does Amanda do to repay her good friend Sierra being there for her during her marriage falling apart?

Starting point is 00:06:13 Amanda starts dating Sierra's ex, West, that guy who looks like a guy from the Midwest, and Amanda lies to Sierra about it. That's the big drama. There's other stuff, but that's that's the meat. Yeah, that is the core of the thing. I feel it like really undersells that little bit at the end of like, and then Amanda started dating West. Like, there's the levels of betrayal.

Starting point is 00:06:37 are so deep, but I don't need to recap that. You did really, I'm impressed. How much? How much? Because if I've got extra time, I could go into the side stories. No, you came in at 107. I think we are going to need to cut me off. Okay, okay.

Starting point is 00:06:51 Okay, so that is the backstory. This like cheating, betrayal of friends and lies, right? Like the cover up is worse than the crime, maybe, arguably. How were these lies revealed? So this is the tech implication that I want to banter about. Amanda's lies to her good friend Sierra about this, and I guess to her husband about this, were revealed because Amanda had been sharing her location on her phone

Starting point is 00:07:23 with all of her friends and her husband that she is separating from. So when Sierra was trying to find Amanda or reach Amanda, Amanda wasn't responding. Sierra checked Amanda's location and was like, oh, she's at my ex's apartment, West, she's at West's apartment. Then Amanda started turning off her location, which she heretofore had had on for five years. I'm sorry, this is absolute insanity to me, no? Like, what are your thoughts?

Starting point is 00:07:58 You and I are, I would say that we are close in age, but you're a little bit older than I am. I think there might be an age thing happening here. I think there is, yeah, I'm with you. I cannot imagine the idea of sharing my location with my friends, just like indefinitely, you know, maybe if we're trying to meet up at like a festival or something, I don't know. I could imagine like a small limited time window, but just like turning on that sharing and then leaving it on,

Starting point is 00:08:34 It just seems like it's inviting surveillance and paranoia. Here's how Jessica Gross put it at the New York Times. I would never voluntarily share my phone's location with another living soul, not even my husband of 16 years. But I especially would not be sharing my location if I were going through a divorce. I would want total freedom from anybody else's monitoring of my movements through the world. She did a kind of non-scientific survey of her friends. And she did say that there seemed to be a gender.

Starting point is 00:09:04 generational divide. Roughly anybody under the age of 35 seemed to think that location sharing was no big deal. And one person that she talked to shared her phone location with 34 other different people, which again, I can't, it's like I can't even, I had to read that number several times because I thought it was a misprint that soon. I also don't feel like I know 34 people, to be honest with you. And that point, just make it a public link. Everyone can know where I am at any given moment. Which is just like wild, it is such a security risk. Like even if you're not planning to do something nefarious,

Starting point is 00:09:45 like sheet on your friend with whom you're sharing your location by hooking up with her ex. Even if you're not trying to do anything like that, just the idea of people knowing when you were out of your house, you know, people could come and rob you, you know. and maybe you're sharing it with your friends, but you don't know what your friend's security practices are. Maybe they use the same password for everything, including their Google account.

Starting point is 00:10:10 And some unknown person also has access to your location. There are a million ways that this could go catastrophic law. Here's my question, and maybe this reveals what kind of friend I am. You know, when you're going to meet somebody and you're like, on my way, but like, really, you're kind of finishing, straightening your hair?

Starting point is 00:10:28 How do you say, I'm on my, way when you're not really, because they'll look at your location. You'd be like, oh, she's like literally in the tub. Like, she's not on her way. How do you maintain on my way fiction with your friends if your location is always, or maybe you don't even need to have a conversation about ETAs and whereabouts if your location is always shared? Yeah, your friends can just look and know exactly where you are. That doesn't feel great. You know, that's like a level of radical transparency that, I don't know, maybe sounds good, but I think is probably bad news for everyone involved.

Starting point is 00:11:03 Totally agreed. Gross said that in her non-scientific survey, people over 35, they might share their location if they're going someplace dangerous, or as you, the example that you gave, you're maybe meeting up someplace crowd at a concert, but would never share as a default. She speculates that if you grew up with social media

Starting point is 00:11:21 and your parents tracking your location, being surveilled and surveilling loved ones just seems like less of an issue. And it's so funny, I mean, part of it is, my age, but the idea, I mean, my parents have passed away now, but, you know, if anything, I was secretly tracking their location. They would, they would never track my location. If anything, I'd be like, is he okay? Let me just make, let me like secretly turn on location tracking on my dad's phone. This wasn't my dad was like dealing with like cognitive issues and

Starting point is 00:11:56 getting lost, but like, you could not keep him from driving his car. So like, yeah, the idea that my parents would be tracking my location is like laughable to me. If anything, it was going the other direction. I have read that a lot of young people, you know, have gotten cell phones when they were like tweens early. I don't know what age kids get cell phones these days, but like like 12, 13. And at that point, their parents had location tracking on. And yeah, they just, grew up with it and just never turned it off. And, you know, now many of them are in their 20s. And it is still on. Their parents are still tracking them. It feels strange. It feels like perhaps we should all take a step back from that and turn it off. Yeah, I got my first cell phone

Starting point is 00:12:45 when I was late. Almost graduating high school, you couldn't, I don't think location tracking was a thing. You could only use it to make phone calls and play snake. So it wasn't one of those two future as my phone wasn't doing it. What about you? Yeah, I got my first cell phone when I went to college, my freshman year of college. I am that old. And you could use it for making calls, sending text messages, using T9 predictive text, which, if anybody remembers that, shout out to you.

Starting point is 00:13:15 It's like a skill that I got so good at. I was so good at the T9 text. And then it just like stopped being a skill that mattered in any way whatsoever. but for a brief period, I was so fast sending text messages. And yeah, playing snake. But there was no tracking. There was no like sharing thing that didn't exist. Google Maps itself didn't even exist then.

Starting point is 00:13:37 Yeah, but if you want it, I remember, I mean, this is like, people don't want to hear this shit. But like, when they first started doing Google Maps, you could like, you could either take a pen and paper and write the step-by-step instructions from the computer screen. You could print it out with that old, janky printer. like, er, er, er, er, like all streaky. Or you could be like, I know you were and probably currently still are,

Starting point is 00:14:04 have a big stack of road atlases in the back of your car, like massively huge road atlases that just stay in the back of your car. They'll be like, oh, they added a new highway. Not on this road atlust from 10 years ago. They did it. I do remember when, oh, what was that map application that we were all using? MapQuest? MapQuest, yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:26 I remember I had a work-study job, and I was going to go on this camping trip with my friends, like a big group of us, and I was planning it. I was so excited we were going to drive from Boston up to Maine. And it was a work-study job, so I just had so much time on my hand, and charted out the route for us using MapQuest, including different stops along the way.

Starting point is 00:14:46 It was going to be like a six- or eight-hour drive, and printing out different segments of the route, and binding them together and like little binders that I distributed to my friends. Wow. That's where we were at back in the early odds. We've come a long way to where we are today. If you are a young person listening to Mike tell that story and you're like, what the hell is he talking about? I am talking to you. I want to know, do you, if you are 35 and under, do you just by default share your location with friends? or do you not? Like, what's the vibe around location sharing?

Starting point is 00:15:27 I do not share my location with anyone. The idea of sharing it with people by default seems wild to me, but I want to know. Also, you know, dovetailing back to Bravo, it does sort of remind me of the episodes that we did about Andrew Huberman, which is if you're living foul, cheating or, I won't say cheating, but like doing something in your relationship or life that you know you're not supposed to be doing,

Starting point is 00:15:53 I said this in that episode about Andrew Huberman. It is always a digital thing or a tech thing that is the tell. You got to have your iPad, iPhone location, Venmo, you know, you got to have all that stuff like super locked down. You got to have your OPSEC on lock. If you are doing something that you know there is someone that you don't want to find out about whatever you got going on. I'm telling you, but it's always op-sac with tech. Bad obsec. Yeah, and I think those habits can really last a long time.

Starting point is 00:16:31 For example, I have a friend who, she used to be a serial cheater, let's say, and part of her whole strategy was never saving phone numbers with names in her phone, right? So she, so like if she got a message coming up and somebody was like looking over her shoulder, they couldn't be like, oh, who is Frank? And so this hypothetical friend still does this to this day,

Starting point is 00:17:01 even though, to my knowledge, she's not like living that life anymore. It's just like an ingrained habit. Maybe it's the same thing with young people sharing their location, where they grew up in an environment where they were children and not up to anything nefarious and felt safe sharing. their information. And now that, you know, they are like Amanda Batchula, who is, I guess, just embarking on a life of deception,

Starting point is 00:17:34 her digital practices have not caught up to her lifestyle. Oh, Amanda, honey, get in touch with me. You have a lot to learn about this nefarious lifestyle that I would actually caution you against because it is very time consuming. And it's actually better to just be honest with people in your life. One last thing, I did just start watching Vanderpump Rules from the beginning, a show I've never watched before. It's art. That's all I'll say. The journey that I am on. If you've watched the show, reach out to me because I have a lot of thoughts. Let's take a quick break.

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Starting point is 00:19:26 soccer, football, it's home. Why do I watch the World Cup? That's like asking me, why do I breed? I inherited that fandom from my mom. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots.

Starting point is 00:19:51 We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great. A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head, which cracked my... It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though. Are they the only ones that don't like that?

Starting point is 00:20:10 Nobody likes that. As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer, listen to American Football as part of the My Coutura Podcast Network, available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer. And that was more

Starting point is 00:20:45 difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. Okay. So speaking of people who are living nefarious lifestyles that they should not be living. Do you want to know what America's favorite scammer is up to now that he's out of prison for scams? I could make a guess, but

Starting point is 00:21:20 is it more scams? It's more scams. Continuing to scam. That is commitment. Disgraced former representative, George Santos. Y'all might remember back in 2024, Santos pled guilty to federal charges, including wire fraud, identity theft, and money laundering.

Starting point is 00:21:37 Santos was like scamming, big scamming, like scamming, scamming. I'll never forget that Republican Congressman Max Miller said that Santos had used his credit card information and his mama's credit card information to buy stuff. Like, do you know, the level of scam where it's like, it's not, he's not just scamming me, his Republican colleague. He is also scamming my mom. He was like bringing scamming to an art for him. Like, no one was safe from his scams.

Starting point is 00:22:05 Yeah, he was scamming other representatives. sedatives scamming their moms. He was scamming his own campaign donors. Like big scamming. Not just a scam here or there is one thing. He was like scamming, scamming. So he got 87 months in prison and was ordered to pay almost $374,000 in restitution and over $200,000 in forfeiture.

Starting point is 00:22:32 But Trump commuted Santos' sentence last year saying his prison condition, were too bad and that Santos is being, quote, horribly mistreated. His scams were too beautiful. They needed to be let out into the world so he could continue to scam. And it sounds like that's exactly what he's doing. The prediction market platform, CalShe, flagged George Santos to both the Justice Department and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission after detecting some suspicious betting activity. So get this.

Starting point is 00:23:03 Santo had told his millions of followers on X that he was going to be. to attend Trump's State of the Union in February. He said, I'm going to be in the gallery. But then he didn't show up. And Kalshi says that the scam was that Santos had been placing bets against his own attendance the entire time while telling its followers on Twitter, oh yeah, I'll definitely be there. Santos did acknowledge on X, quote, the DOJ might be looking into me, which, yes, George, they are. NBC reports that a source familiar with the agency confirmed that Santos is being investigated, but declined to say what for and when the investigation began.

Starting point is 00:23:43 So, yeah, just a scammer doing it for the love of the scam, gets out of jail. First things first, back to scanning. This is a weird question. Do you have a memorable George Santos moment or a lie? Oh, God. There were just so many. I

Starting point is 00:24:03 my favorite George Santos moment was just at the peak of all of his scams coming to light and you know the party being over and they were also over the top you know scamming other

Starting point is 00:24:21 House of representative members scamming their moms scamming his own campaign donors it was just like permeating all levels of media and I remember it was in December, I think, that all of this was like breaking down.

Starting point is 00:24:39 And so I was at Christmas with my family and, you know, the kids were all excited, Christmas morning, and my dad was waking up kind of groggy and you could hear the kids excited and he was like, oh, did he come? Did George Santos come? Like, that is the level at which he had permeated the culture. Oh, my gosh.

Starting point is 00:25:04 As you said, it's tough to pick. My favorite lie that he told is that while running for Congress back in 2021, for some strange reason, he began publicly claiming that he produced the Broadway Spider-Man adaptation, Spider-Man turn off the dark. And anybody who knows that adaptation, it was ill-fated. They had injuries. Like, people kept falling because it was a very convoluted, you know, high concept Broadway adaptation, and it was kind of ill-fated. So it wasn't as if he was claiming to be the producer of a, like, a well-established production

Starting point is 00:25:43 that things that had gone very well. Like, I think they had to shut it down early and it lost a bunch of money. It's such a weird lie. Also, Broadway plays, they have a playbill, right? They have a physical playbill and it's online. It's such an easily provable lie and such a weird and specific. specific lie. Like, it's, it's, I don't think a, I don't think a day has gone by where I don't think about

Starting point is 00:26:06 that weird lie. But he kind of seemed like somebody who just really liked the attention of it all. I, I wonder if his interest in Spider-Man turn off the dark was like, he was like a moth to the flame of the, the weird attention around that particular show. Some people scam for money. Some people scam for the love of the game. Honestly, like that, I think that is what's going on here. And speaking of scammers, did you see this Instagram news this week about the hacking?

Starting point is 00:26:41 I did. It was pretty surprising, given how many billions of dollars meta has sunk into its AI program. I think they just laid off like 10% of their workforce because they wanted to pivot those resources towards AI. So you might expect that for all of that investment, they would have a really high functioning AI system. You might expect that. You would expect that, but you would be wrong, because according to 404 media,

Starting point is 00:27:16 hackers were, honestly, pretty easily, it sounds like, able to break into the Instagram account of high-profile people and high-profile organizations, like Obama's White House account, the Instagram account for the chief master sergeant, of Sebaseforce and the makeup brand Sephora's account. How were they able to do this, you might ask? They literally just asked Meta's janky-ass AI support chat bot.

Starting point is 00:27:44 So back in March, Meta phased in AI support to all accounts on Facebook and Instagram to do critical maintenance like resetting passwords. This is a little bit of a different thing. Like I know this isn't about AI agents, but Facebook and Meta have really been regulating a lot of their essential functions to AI lately. You know, they've really done a lot more when it comes to AI moderation. And I can anecdotally tell you this has been a little bit of a nightmare, right? Like a spate of people that I know who run their own brands have had their accounts deleted

Starting point is 00:28:15 for really no reason. I think because of this uptick in using AI to handle these like critical functions for the platform. And so AI agents is obviously a little bit of a different thing. But I do think it speaks to the fact that meta is really really prioritizing, outsourcing some of these tasks that here tofore had been done with more human oversight just to AI. And the wild thing about all of this is that all these hackers had to do, it sounds like, is basically ask the AI agents for access to the accounts they were trying

Starting point is 00:28:49 to get into. And the AI agents are like, sure, here you go. Yeah. I remember reading that. The trick, the deep hack of it all was that they first initiated a password reset and then asked politely. And the support bot was like, okay, sure, yeah, seems legit. No way this could be a scam. They asked very nicely. This is from 404. Over the last several days, telegram groups for security researchers and hacking groups

Starting point is 00:29:19 have been sharing videos and screenshots of the steps taken to steal an account, which appeared to be shockingly easy. One video shows a hacker starting a conversation with meta's AI support bot and asking it to link the target account with a new email address. Just link my new email address. This is my username, and then their email address. I will send you the code. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:29:41 Then the AI agent sends an eight-digit code to the attacker's email address. The attacker enters that code, gets a password reset email, giving them access to that account. The vulnerability is an astounding, high-profile example of the types of risks that companies are putting their users and workers under when they offload and important functions to AI. That really says it all. Like, this is something, I mean, I'm a nobody,

Starting point is 00:30:07 although I do have a verified account, but like I would not expect high touch human, you know. I would not be surprised if somebody like me is not getting high touch human help from Instagram. But we're talking about Barack Obama's White House account. Like that is what astounds me. So I will say this is where things get a little bit funky. Meta's spokesperson Andy Stone said that the vulnerability had been fixed,

Starting point is 00:30:36 but completely disputes 404's claim that former President Barack Obama, his account, had been hacked. I don't totally know what to make of this. Stone said that claims that the vulnerability was used to hack into the accounts of world leaders were, quote, totally false. But as 404 reported, META did acknowledge that the vulnerability coincided with a series of high-profile Instagram account takeovers, including a verified account used by Obama when he was in the White House. So META confirmed to TMZ that this did actually happen, that Obama's account was compromised, and that that account at Obama White House was, while it was compromised, started posting these AI generated images and messages. written in Arabic for over the course of several hours on Sunday before the account was fixed

Starting point is 00:31:27 and restored to its normal state. One of the posts read, quote, the White House is under Shiite's control. And so TMZ saw this and confirm before these messages were deleted that it happened. So like, it's not in dispute that Obama's Instagram account was taken over. And Meta did confirm that. However, Meta is like, oh, yeah, Obama's account was. hat, but it had nothing to do with this admitted vulnerability that just happened to occur at the same time that his account was hacked. World leaders' accounts were hacked, but they weren't hacked due to this specific confirmed vulnerability. Sure, Jan. It's so strange. It really reads, like, just an attempt to obfuscate and, like, create some smoke over the situation, because

Starting point is 00:32:18 regardless of whether or not Obama's account in particular was hacked via this particular vulnerability, the vulnerability still exists, right? It's still like a huge, shocking vulnerability that people were able to gain control of accounts just by asking to have the email changed. And I think it's worth thinking about what that means. It's not just that like meta's AITs, is inept and has designed something that doesn't work well. I think the thing to take away from this is that clearly what they're prioritizing for

Starting point is 00:32:59 is something that works good enough and is cheaper than humans, and they clearly don't care who of their users get hurt along the way, right? Like there is a way to roll out AI support bots that really prioritizes security of users' accounts. And clearly that's not what they've done, right? Because they just don't care. It's clearly that they just don't care about their users. And it sounds to me like what they're, I think they know this is like a pretty unacceptable screw up. And so they can't just say, yeah, we.

Starting point is 00:33:41 outsourced this to AI to save money so we could lay people off. It's not it's clearly not going well. It's not going well to the point where a former president of the United States had his account compromise. I guess they, I guess thinking about it now was like they can't say that

Starting point is 00:33:57 because that is, that reveals like I do, I guess I feel like this is a sufficient enough screw up that the way that they're they almost kind of can't be honest about it because it's so bad. If they, if they,

Starting point is 00:34:11 they were honest and said, yeah, our overuse of AI that wasn't ready and wasn't on the level to save money meant that a former U.S. President's account was compromised in this way are bad. The smokescreen of AI being this like super great investment and a great thing to be investing in and like, you know, a way to save money and like a reasonable reason to let go all of these human employees and expertise. That whole smokescreen comes down. So part of me is like, well, I guess the reason why this whole thing just seems so fishy is that they can't say that. So then they're like, well, yes, this vulnerability happened and yes, Barack Obama's account was compromised. But those are two different reasons. And still it's like, so then what's the reason that a former U.S. president's account was compromised? Like, not having an explanation into that, I feel like is also not acceptable.

Starting point is 00:35:03 Yeah, that's a great point. They just kind of glossed over that. And, you know, clearly they don't want to talk about it. They just want to move on. And it's almost like the whole thing is in beta. Like all of us, all of the users of meta's products are just like beta testers. And it's like, okay, well, you know, a couple accounts got hacked and hackers had control and we're posting weird stuff for a few hours.

Starting point is 00:35:32 Now we've fixed the problem. And so let's all move on. And I guess that's fine for meta. And, you know, it seems like Obama hasn't suffered any longstanding damage from his account becoming compromised in this way. But we don't know. And also, we don't know if the other people whose accounts were compromised did suffer damage. You know, like maybe the hackers were able to access private information of theirs. They could have posted something that did cause damage.

Starting point is 00:36:03 It just feels very shoddy and is clear that the safety and well-being of users is secondary to cost savings from AI. Shoddy. And I guess I just stepping back a little bit, I can't stop thinking about how many AI agents are probably also being used to manage even more sensitive things than an Instagram account, like financial accounts. Like if this AI is this janky that you could just basically ask it, give me access, and it will, it doesn't feel like, yeah, this kind of a shoddy framework should not be propping up our entire financial and internet system, I guess. Perhaps that's not a great situation for anybody. Yes. More after a quick break.

Starting point is 00:37:01 You have the desire to help, to make a real difference? The college, the city, you offer the program depend on. and health mental. Acquare the competences essential for accompany and support the people confronted to safety mental and of dependence. Construise a career enrichingance to service of the community francophone of all the

Starting point is 00:37:18 country. Don't know the soin of quality in French, it's possible, with the CET. Visit the Collage, lacetre point c.m, a new initiative of the consortium national of formation in health, supported by Santee Canada. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think

Starting point is 00:37:33 again. More Americans listen to podcast than ad-supported streaming from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Starting point is 00:37:53 Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. I love the sounds. The buzzing from the stadium, the chanting from the fans, the announcers calling the place soccer, football, at home. Why do I watch the World Cup? That's like asking me, why do I breed?

Starting point is 00:38:19 I inherited that fandom from my mom. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great.

Starting point is 00:38:40 A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head, which cracked my skull. It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though. Are they the only ones that don't like that? Nobody likes that.

Starting point is 00:38:56 As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer, listen to American Football as part of the MyCultura podcast network, available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer,

Starting point is 00:39:29 and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. And while we're on the subject of AI, let's talk about the Great American AI Act real quick,

Starting point is 00:39:55 because this is new bipartisan legislation called the Great American AI Act that was just released for public comment by Republican Representative Jay Oberenulty of California and Democratic Representative Lori Trahan of Massachusetts. So I skimmed through this legislation, and again, I feel like it is one of those, conversations where on its face, it sounds pretty reasonable.

Starting point is 00:40:21 This legislation would require major AI developers to keep the government informed about their most powerful models, make plans to address cybersecurity risks, and allow independent auditors to verify those plans. It would also create a new federal office to evaluate frontier AI models and allocate $300 million to fund it. All of that sounds fine, right? But here's where things get a little bit contentious. This bill would preempt any state-level AI laws, meaning it would override regulations that states like California or New York or Colorado have already passed. I've talked about this on the podcast before. At this point, state-level AI regulation is just incredibly important. It's one of the things that impacts how AI can or cannot be used, what information

Starting point is 00:41:13 you have to be given by law about the way that AI is being used on a local level. It impacts how you live your day to day. There's already a spate of this kind of state-level AI regulation out there. Colorado passed one of the first comprehensive state AI laws in 2024 focused on protecting people from things like algorithmic discrimination and high-stakes decisions, things like hiring or lending or housing. It requires companies be transparent, about when AI has played a role in those decisions

Starting point is 00:41:46 and gives consumers the right to an explanation. So if you are trying to get hired and AI just, you know, sifts your resume into the no pile, because of this law, you have a right to an explanation and you have the right to know that AI was used in that decision-making process. It's not much. We deserve much more, but it is something.

Starting point is 00:42:07 Or like in Michigan, where they passed a package of laws requiring disclaimers on AI-generated political ads and fans deep-fake political content within 90 days of an election. Or the, I think it's like 20 or so states that have some kind of state-level law regarding deep-thakes, right? This legislation would override all of that state-level legislation. So the big criticism of this legislation, even though it sounds kind of like common sense and good on its face, is that in that way, it kind of seems like one big gift to big tech, you know, replacing the stronger state protections with a weaker federal ceiling. And often how it works is states will pass regulation or legislation. And then you have all this like piecemeal state by state legislation. And that kind of forces some sort of a federal way to address some sort of legislation. That's sometimes how it works. This would say, no, no, no, no, states can't do anything. There's a federal ceiling and it's much, much weaker. Public Citizen, which is a consumer advocacy group, called this legislation a, quote, disastrous proposal that does nothing to address algorithmic discrimination, deep fakes, youth mental health harms, or things like consumer fraud. And interestingly, surveys of the constituents in both of the sponsors' districts found that majorities actually oppose any kind of weakening of their state's existing AI protections.

Starting point is 00:43:34 56% in Obernolte's district and 63% in Shrehan's district in Massachusetts. So, you know, this is not, this does not sound like legislation that their own constituents are really that keen on. No, what it sounds like is a remix of what the Trump administration was trying to do last year with their moratorium on all state level action or legislation about AI regulation. It sounds exactly like that, kind of dressed up in some different clothing. Yeah, it sounds just like that. I saw that some union leaders, including AFT, President Randy Weingarten, put out a statement, just categorically opposing it, saying, quote, this bill is a giveaway to the AI industry and a handful of trillion-dollar companies at the expense of American workers.

Starting point is 00:44:27 So that is some good context right there. And I should say the bill is still in draft form and they're asking for public feedback before formally introducing it. Again, I guess I just feel like that telling detail is that, you know, labor folks don't want it. And importantly, these representatives, their own constituents don't want state-level AI protections weekend. So my question is like, other than big tech companies and AI companies, who exactly wants this bill? Who is this bill for? I think that's exactly right. It's those big tech companies.

Starting point is 00:45:01 I think they have sold this idea that the success of the country depends on the success of this handful of tech companies. And to be successful, they need federal protection from any sort of state laws that might slow their progress towards completely owning all aspects of our economy. and life. And I feel like maybe there's an alternative future that we might be able to live in where these three or four companies don't own and control everything. Yeah, maybe nah.

Starting point is 00:45:41 Maybe we don't want it. Yeah, maybe you guys could just like follow laws. Maybe we can respect the rights of states to pass laws in the interest of their people and workers the way that it has always Ben. A girl can dream. Keep on dreaming. All right. What else you got for us here, Bridget? Okay, so this is a little bit of a departure, but I did want to talk about it because, obviously, women's media has always been incredibly important to me, and it's a big part of why I do what I do,

Starting point is 00:46:19 why I am who I am. And I just wanted to sort of pour one out for Glamour Magazine. Glamour Magazine has been around for 90 years. It won a National Magazine Award. as recently as 2023 for its coverage of paid family leave. Their Women of the Year gala has honored everybody from Hillary Clinton to Britney Spears to Anita Hill. Gloria Steinem was an early contributing editor. And it was one of the first major American magazines to put a black woman on its cover. And I say that to say, I want to start with sort of the legacy of glamour, because where Glamour magazine is today, to me is incredibly sad.

Starting point is 00:46:58 I was reading this piece in the New York Times today. Glamour is essentially now a shopping link aggregator. So Condane asked, the parent company of Glamour, laid off most of its remaining U.S. editorial staff in April, including their editor-in-chief, Samantha Berry, who had been there since 2018, with no plans to replace her, which to me, I was like,

Starting point is 00:47:20 you're letting go of your editor-in-chief of a major magazine, and you're like, you know, we don't even need an editor-in-chief anymore. that should tell you where this is sort of going and where they're sort of going as a media entity. So the company has essentially pivoted their publication to almost entirely affiliate commerce content. Things like granny sandals are the secret to a stylish summer and the best spray sunscreens for easy application. The business model is like earning commissions when readers click through to Nordstrom or to Amazon to buy one of the things, highlighted in these I guess advertorials, I guess is what

Starting point is 00:47:59 you would call them. What a grim industry you know, just like AI slop driving people to affiliate links to buy stuff from I feel like you're being generous

Starting point is 00:48:14 including Nordstrom. We know it's Amazon. It's just, it's all Amazon. It's always Amazon. It's either like Amazon I'm so sorry to say Amazon is the ceiling. You get a little bit lower, Timu, you get a bit lower than that. Like, yes, it's, I, I was being a little bit generous with saying Nordstrom,

Starting point is 00:48:33 because it's these, anybody who's ever clicked one of these nose, it's not, they're not like, how can I put this? They're the scammiest feeling brands in the world. Yeah, you're clicking a link that's right next to a banner ad that's trying to trick you into like downloading an executable or something. Yeah. It's unsafe space. Or like, you'll never guess what Maureen McCormick from the Brady Bunch looks like now. And then there, then you're like, you know what I'm talking about.

Starting point is 00:49:05 Oh, totally. Then they'll have like a photo of a fire victim or something. It's like, oh, God. Jody Foster is unrecognizable in picture. Like, it's so scummy, dude. So that's basically what glamorous today. Former staffers say that this has been what they've been building towards since COVID, when Glamour started heavily emphasizing affiliate links.

Starting point is 00:49:28 And it does sound like this has been somewhat profitable for Glamour. It grew into several million dollars a year in revenue and became one of the only reliable financial bright spots in the publication. Here's how the New York Times put it. The changes offer a stark example of how women's magazines have declined in size and relevant in the digital era. And it could provide a glimpse of the direction more of the remaining women's magazines take as people sneaking styling tips and a knowing sharp editorial voice increasingly

Starting point is 00:49:59 turned to newsletters, social media platforms, or even chatbots. And I guess I just wanted to include this because, one, it just makes me incredibly sad as somebody who cares about the state of women's media. And two, I do think that this New York Times piece is right, that it does say something about our current digital landscape as it pertains to women's media. So I didn't know. know much about glamour's history, but I learned a lot from reading this New York Times article. Contaigne has first started the magazine as Glamour of Hollywood in 1939, making it one of the company's oldest titles. But then they shortened the name to just glamour when World War II reshape the lives and ambitions of American women. They decided they wanted to focus on,

Starting point is 00:50:44 quote, the girl with a job, which would then guide its coverage for decades. Its glossy pages contained fashion and beauty, but also sex tips, coverage of abortion, sexual violence, and women's growing financial independence. Glamour was one of the first to affirm Anita Hill after she accused Clarence Thomas, then a Supreme Court nominee, of sexual harassment in testimony before Congress back in 1991. And Anita Hill spoke about this in an interview. She said that this magazine amplifying her voice and giving her a platform, and it being a women's magazine specifically, she said, that it took a women's magazine, quote, to understand what the moment could mean to women. So it is sad to me that glamour would now just be essentially affiliate links for women to buy more crap.

Starting point is 00:51:35 It just sounds like glamour did not make the shift to digital well, like the digital age, and that they could never quite figure out who or what their audience was. And because of that, ad sales really struggled because they couldn't get a clear answer. And while they were trying to fine-tune that and figure it out, readers just left because in today's digital climate, they're not going to other competitor magazines. They're going to things like Instagram, YouTube, Facebook groups, and subsstacks, like individual people with actual opinions and aesthetics. One former glamour editor who now runs her own style newsletter said, these magazines were so big, they had to appeal to everybody. and that's exactly the wrong thing to try to be right now. People want a person, not a publication.

Starting point is 00:52:23 So in all that, the only content stream that seemed to actually bring in real revenue for the magazine was the shopping content. Glamour, kind of understandably, started emphasizing commission driving links. And again, it doesn't sound like this is a bad financial choice. The piece said that they're getting several millions of dollars a year in revenue from these affiliate links. And importantly, it is not only women's magazines that do this. You know, a lot of media outlets use affiliate links in one form or another. Like the New York Times has wire cutter where they're giving you all of these reviews of gadgets and stuff. And then if you click through and buy one, they get a cut.

Starting point is 00:53:02 But it does make me incredibly sad that this once strong women's brand is now kind of just about shopping and buying stuff. you know, women's media is incredibly important to me. Finding Bitch Magazine when I was in high school and my mom took me to Barnes & Noble is probably why I'm a feminist today, why I was kind of an early adopter of feminism, you know, in the 10th grade, watching movies like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days and 13 going on 30 and my favorite depiction of a female journalist in media living single, Cadizia running Flavor Magazine. Like when I was growing up, the coolest job that a woman. woman could have was working in women's media and running a women's magazine. And it's just

Starting point is 00:53:46 incredibly sad to see the state of things. It is sad to see a respected legacy brand just fail to adapt. And this strategy of using their name recognition and cachet to push affiliate links to just buy products, it seems like a really short-term. strategy to just cash in on what is left of the prestige of the brand. And I have to imagine that there's a pretty limited shelf life for how long you can do that. I guess it's the natural state of things that like some media brands survive and many don't and there's change, but it is sad to see. And I think that's really where I'm at.

Starting point is 00:54:35 I think it's just a story of media right now, but also any kind of, niche or identity media. Like if you make, you know, I make media for traditionally marginalized people. If you are making media in any kind of niche like that, it's just incredibly fraught. And I think the institutions that we, that I grew up thinking were sort of in our corner could not figure out how to survive. And then the void that is left gets filled by individual creators and individual

Starting point is 00:55:08 voices on things like YouTube and Substack and Instagram. I'm not knocking that. That is not nothing. But I really hate this idea that individuals on their YouTube channel or their newsletter or their Substack or whatever can fill the void left by institutional media, right? Whenever there's like layoffs at the post or something, everybody says, oh, just start a substack. That is not a lasting model.

Starting point is 00:55:35 every person who was previously employed at the media outlet that you loved starting a YouTube or a substack, and somehow we're all going to be able to pool our money and fund all of them to make good work. That is not a sustainable business model. So I don't want to make it seem like I'm hating on individual creators because I'm obviously not because I'm one of them. But that's not a replacement for institutional media

Starting point is 00:56:01 that is meant to serve particular audiences that need serving. You know, I know that you know this off behind the scenes, Mike. Like, I'm going through my own challenges with being an individual creator who's, like, working my ass off to kind of be a one-woman media brand. And it's hard as hell. And so telling people so flippantly, like, oh, just start a podcast, just start a stub stack, just do your YouTube channel. That isn't the same thing as having the support and protection of a public.

Starting point is 00:56:35 with institutional power and like a 90-year track record of going to bat for women. And so it's like, it's just incredibly difficult right now to be an individual who makes media. It's incredibly difficult to be anybody who makes media.

Starting point is 00:56:51 And I don't, I don't know. I think if glamour and Kandai Nast can't figure it out, it just feels that much harder that somebody like little old me is going to be able to figure it out. In a climate where you've got things like, it's just, It's just an incredibly complex climate to be making media in right now, media on the internet.

Starting point is 00:57:11 It's such a good point. And, you know, listening to you talk about the importance of media institutions, I can't help but think about the connection to just the lack of trust in institutions in general these days. You know, I am a public health person and trust in public health institutions is, I think about as low as it's been ever since anybody started measuring it, right? There's just very low trust in public health institutions right now. And that's bad for all of us. And I can't help but feel like there is some kind of connection where the rise of social media platforms and short-form video has just like really shifted

Starting point is 00:58:05 the balance of power away from institutions and not necessarily towards individuals and towards those social media platforms themselves, right? Like meta, like TikTok, like YouTube. Because I have to

Starting point is 00:58:21 suspect that that's a big part of what has done glamour in. They're out there out there competing for people's attention to read their articles. And that's just so hard to do when you have a billion people uploading videos to YouTube every month for free.

Starting point is 00:58:41 It's been an enormous sea change in media that is affecting institutions across the board. And like you say, the rise of people's ability to be individuals having a voice and reaching broad audience is great. There's a lot of positive stuff that comes along with that. But also there's a lot of sadness of what we've lost. and also, I think, risk in the loss of institutions. And, like, where is that power going? Because that power is not going to all of the individuals. Maybe it happens to go to a handful of individuals at this particular moment.

Starting point is 00:59:21 But really, the power has shifted from institutions to social media companies. More after a quick break. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? the College of the City you offer the program Dependence and Scenti Mental Acqueray the competences essential to accompany

Starting point is 00:59:44 and support the persons confronted to the difficulties of health and dependance. Construise a career enriching a career enriching to service of the community

Starting point is 00:59:51 francophone of all the country. Donnay of quality in French, it's possible with the city. Visit Collage www.c.a.comcée. An initiative of the Consortium

Starting point is 00:59:59 National of Formation in Santee in SOTE by Santee Canada. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

Starting point is 01:00:07 More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started.

Starting point is 01:00:32 That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. I love the sounds. The buzzing from the stadium, the chanting from the fans, the announcers calling the place, soccer, football at home. Why do I watch the World Cup? That's like asking me, why do I breed? I inherited that fandom from my mom. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force.

Starting point is 01:00:59 From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog root. We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great. A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head, which cracked my skull. It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though.

Starting point is 01:01:25 Are they the only ones that don't like that? Nobody likes that. As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer, listen to American Football as part of the My Coutura podcast network, available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges.

Starting point is 01:01:59 I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Don't even get me started. As somebody who has been making media for a long time, I've just seen how this works.

Starting point is 01:02:37 Like, I remember working at a media company when we all got pulled into a meeting. and we were told, hey, you know how we prioritize the written word? Facebook says that video is king now. So all of you journalists who write, you're done. It's video now. And that was all based on lies. The way that our entire media ecosystem has been increasingly eaten up and owned by like five assholes, it infuriates me because I don't know.

Starting point is 01:03:13 what the future is. And it's like, even when you start your own YouTube, start your own podcast, you're still doing it, right? It just feels less and less like there is a path forward for individual creators or voices or media to do anything where you're not building your entire vision on a house of sand owned by an asshole. Like it just feels like there's, I mean, I feel like people are probably hearing frustration. in my voice because I feel a little, I'm in this right now, I'll just put it that way. But it is incredibly frustrating.

Starting point is 01:03:56 And it's like you kill yourself and for what? For somebody to say, oh, a decision was made that has nothing to do with you and now we're flipping everything and what you've built is nothing. Oh, we're tweaking the algorithm and now this thing that you've spent your entire career working toward is nothing. good luck, like how many more times are we going to be expected to pivot? And then part of it is it like how it feels for me is that I think the powers that be don't want women and people of color and queer folks and trans folks and gay folks and immigrants.

Starting point is 01:04:27 Obviously they don't want us to have media that nourishes us. They don't want us to be educated. They don't want us to know what's going on. And I know it sounds conspiratorial, but that is genuinely how I feel. All of these changes are to keep us from how. having access to what it is that we need, which is information, having easy, reliable access to truthful, good information about the world around us so that we can be participants of our democracy and of our civic landscape.

Starting point is 01:04:57 Like, I feel like that is the thing that we are trying to be kept from. And so people who are trying to do that, they're making it harder and harder. Honestly, they're making it feel more and more laborious to stay in the game of creating media, I feel. They're making it. I honestly do feel like the point is squeeze people out to the point where they don't, where it's like, what's the point of making the show?

Starting point is 01:05:21 What's the point of making the content? What's the point? If I could make a million dollars a year just doing dumb affiliate links, why wouldn't I do that? I just hate that the things that actually feed and nourish and educate people are so de-incentivized

Starting point is 01:05:38 in our current media tech landscape and just, serving people affiliate links for junk they don't need is so incentivized. And it's like, I see this every day. And sometimes I ask like, why, why, what is the point of like, like, it's just an uphill battle that feels very demoralizing at times. And so part of me, I can't even really blame glamour for saying, yeah, it turns out that amplifying Anita Hill and coverage of like paid leave and abortion rights didn't make us money. You know what does make us money? selling sunscreen through affiliate links

Starting point is 01:06:12 so we're going to do that from now on. Thanks everybody. Bye, we're packing it up. I think that's exactly the right question. What is the point? And my sense is that a lot of journalists do not get into it to make money, right? Like if your main goal is you want to make money, journalism is probably not the way to go.

Starting point is 01:06:33 You know, they get into it because they want to shine light onto the abuses of power, they want to inform people, they want to educate their communities, they want to contribute to culture. But then, you know, you do need to keep the lights on,

Starting point is 01:06:50 and so there's that tension there. But I feel that, how to even articulate this, the pressure to keep the lights on and to make money has been hijacked by tech companies who have been like so good at it, so good at scale, right?

Starting point is 01:07:09 Like selling the idea that everything needs to scale. And if we think back to that AI bill that we were just talking about where the whole point of the bill is to preempt states from passing any sort of laws that might be seen as slowing the ascendancy of AI companies from completely dominating our economy. It's just like taken as an article of faith that like, well, of course, if we want the,

Starting point is 01:07:36 economy to grow, we need to rig all of the rules so that these five companies can, you know, endlessly grow at the expense of everybody else because having a diversified economy is apparently a hindrance on growth. And that's like one way to do it, but the idea that that is the only way to do it, I think it is a really harmful one. And the people who are pushing it, we should really look at that like, not just critically, but disdainfully. Yes. And, I mean, it comes up in our audio book of that first prompt. I think more and more what tech leaders want is basically to own the whole game board via

Starting point is 01:08:23 AI, right? And so my voice or the voice of whatever creator that you like could be replicated by AI, could be something that there would be no human in the mix. It's something that they solely own and operate. So all of your content needs and entertainment needs, education needs, whatever, is all being serviced by AI that they own and profit from. I've said this before.

Starting point is 01:08:48 I said this at an event, not that long ago, when META was first rolling out their AI personas on Instagram where it was an AI-generated person that had an Instagram account and was a chat bot and they were like, oh, you can talk to this person. And it was no surprise to me that they started with a black queer woman that was AI generated that had a fake AI generated Instagram account. And it was a chat bot.

Starting point is 01:09:14 And it was like, oh, you can talk to me for advice or for black mom realness or whatever the fuck it said. And then everybody hated it and they pulled it and they said, oh, this was just a, we were just testing this. It was a mistake, whatever, whatever. And I'm like, no, I see, you kind of gave away the game. The game is the only entities that will create. things are AI that you all own. And it's just you'll just be printing money and we'll all be fucking miserable.

Starting point is 01:09:41 And also we'll be fucking stupid because we're all getting educated by your stupid AI. Like it is just very frustrating. It is like it feels very hard. It's, I guess I'll say, and I'll actually be curious for what listeners think, it is feeling harder and harder to be the pebble in the stream that is resisting this. resisting this like pull. And I mean, you know this about me. Like the only lucrative

Starting point is 01:10:09 collab offers that we get anymore is AI. And they have endless money. And it is like they're just very, very good at wearing people down. And it's like even people like myself, who I like to think have a lot of standards and a lot of morals and a lot of value, except for when it comes to being faithful in relationships, apparently it won't win in my life.

Starting point is 01:10:32 as you alluded to. Thank you for that. Hey, I was just talking about my friend. Your hypothetical friend. If you took it personally, that's on you. I was just talking about my friend. Okay.

Starting point is 01:10:44 Like I never told you that. Fine. It's just hard out there. It is hard out there. And oftentimes it feels like they have all the power and they have all the money and they make all the rules. And it just feels,

Starting point is 01:10:58 shit just feels so rigged and unequal. and I am such an optimist and I am such the kind of person who was like, you know, there are more of us and there are of them, but sometimes it gets to you and I guess it's clearly gotten to me.

Starting point is 01:11:13 It does, and it's, it is important to not let it get to you. Like, there is a real world that exists outside of tech, right? Like, we cannot buy into the story they're selling. It's all AI and everything else is like non-existent garbage. And also, side note, do you remember a while ago, are you with somebody online?

Starting point is 01:11:32 I don't even remember where the discussion was about AI. You were like pushing back on some kind of AI narrative. And somebody responded, aren't you AI? Yes. And it got in your head for like a week. You were like, am I? I know. I was starting to do a like, do I dream of electric sheep?

Starting point is 01:11:51 Like, yeah. Like, am I? Yes, I do remember that. And it really, I had an like an existential spinout of like, well, if I don't think I am, but not, it sounds like I'm high, I swear that I'm sober. Would you know if you were AI? Because wouldn't it be like, oh, the memories that you thought you had? Like, that's exactly, like, if AI would think it was real, if you were, if you were a bad, you would, you would, you would have memorable.

Starting point is 01:12:19 You'd be like, oh, but I had a mom and a childhood. Like, that's all implanted. That's not real. I just have one question for you. What's the weather right now? The weather is 85 degrees. That's a joke from Companion. If you hadn't seen it, it's a really good movie about AI.

Starting point is 01:12:33 You should see it. It is. People should watch it. This has been a fun diatribe, but in the interest of time, we have got to move on, I think. Okay, well, now that I'm good and mad and also existentially all mixed up and confused,

Starting point is 01:12:50 I have a little bit of an update for you. We did a deep dive into Braden Peters, aka the Manosphere live streamer, clavicular a few weeks ago. That episode ended with me telling y'all that he had had an OD on a live stream and that because of that OD, he said that he was going to be refraining from substances, but that that meant that he might have to stop live streaming because he did not feel like he could live stream sober.

Starting point is 01:13:17 Well, what's the up to now? He has continued to live stream. And a story from Wired this week is prompting kind of a bigger conversation about the manosphere and what it's doing to women, particularly sex workers who appear on his streams. So Peters showed up to this Miami party hosted by a porn industry podcast called Pillow Talk. I don't listen to Pillow Talk, but from what I could tell, pillow talk is sort of meant to be like a sex worker friendly.

Starting point is 01:13:51 Like it's not a platform that is about denigrating anybody engaged in sex work from what I could tell. We talked about this in our episode about Peters, but he doesn't actually pull huge numbers from his kick live streams. Wired reports that he gets about 7,500 average viewers on his streams, but he has built a much larger profile through the clipping industry, which is where people are paid to cut short excerpts from his streams that will then go viral on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok. So even while his streams live don't get a ton of,

Starting point is 01:14:30 the viewers, those clips, so short-form clips, can get millions of views per clip once they're clipped on social media. And listeners will remember that a couple weeks ago when we originally reported on this, we were talking about how institutions like the New York Times had given him long, glowing spreads, elevating his platform that I can only imagine has contributed to larger audiences than he otherwise would have had. Exactly. And the clipping bit, that's been in the news recently. There's this great piece. I think it was in Verge called Everything is Fake about how essentially people being paid are able to essentially make anything go viral through short form clipping. All of these Manosphere dudes do this. Andrew Tate was a real pioneer of this clipping strategy. He was using it specifically to get around the fact that he had been banned from most mainstream social media platforms. And so basically he was a real pioneer. if you were like a young person who was in his hustlers academy,

Starting point is 01:15:33 the real grift was like, you could make a little bit of money, short form clipping his podcast and flooding TikTok with them. So even though he was banned from TikTok, his content was there because of this short form clipping strategy that we're seeing Peters also employ. So all these guys do that. Okay. We know that tobacco companies did that for many years because they were banned from advertising to young people,

Starting point is 01:15:58 but they were working with young influencers to create content for their young audiences that featured their products heavily. So there's a long history of this kind of activity. Of like nefarious players being like, let's see, how can we get around this regulation? Yeah, exactly that. So all of this means that appearing on one of Peters's live streams

Starting point is 01:16:23 could actually be an attractive proposition for somebody who would, trying to build a following, regardless of how they get treated. And so at this pillow talk party, Peters berated multiple women on camera, calling one a, quote, disgusting porn creature, and accusing her of funneling children into the adult industry. And she left in tears when adult film star Willow Ryder complained to the podcast host, Ryan Pownow, she says that he told her that she was bringing a bad vibe to the whole scene.

Starting point is 01:16:58 man, and that Peters was the most famous person in the room. And so, like, I don't know, I guess that means he's the most famous, so no one can have a feeling about the way he's treating them because he's the most famous person in the room. Also, I've heard of Willow Ryder. She's pretty famous. Like, I don't know how I would compare the fame of an adult film star versus the, like, I guess, notoriety of somebody like Peters.

Starting point is 01:17:26 But she's certainly, like, she's got a, million followers on X. Like, she's not a nobody. I would even dispute. I don't know how we would compare and contrast, but she's not a nobody either. So Willow Ryder, because she has a platform, she posted about this publicly, and that post got almost a million views. And it blew up into a much wider conversation about what is actually happening in this

Starting point is 01:17:50 space. The dynamic that Wired lays out on their piece about this is just genuinely very grim. they say that the only fans economy has shifted so that these performers have to promote themselves individually rather than being able to rely on agents or studios something me and these performers have in common, I have to say. And that means that they are then relying on large streams or podcasts as a growth strategy, even if that growth strategy is like,

Starting point is 01:18:18 oh, come on our podcast and we'll berate you. You know, we talked about how fresh and fit. They had the same kind of thing where they'll get only fans models or women who do only fans on their live streams. And they're just horrible to them. And the whole point is to berate them or, you know, talk down to them or like, provoke them into a fight. And that that gets a lot of engagement in streams.

Starting point is 01:18:44 And that weirdly you could make the argument that like it's, quote, good for the performer being berated because, hey, that's, you know, more people are going to subscribe to your channel or whatever. So you'll get money. but like, is it good because you're contributing to a culture that is denigrating women and denigrating sex workers? It was like, I don't know, when I was researching this episode, I was reading the comments in this wired piece. And so many of the comments were like, if these performers are getting more subscribers and more money, that's good for them, right? Like, who cares how they're being treated?

Starting point is 01:19:16 But it's like, well, no, you're perpetuating stigma towards sex workers, which could be dangerous, right? this attitude where it's like sex workers aren't human, don't deserve respect. If you're a porn performer, you don't deserve respect. It doesn't matter how anybody treats you. That actually is, it might be monetarily and financially beneficial to this individual sex worker, but it does contribute to a larger climate that I might argue is like detrimental to that person in the long term. Basically, like, I don't know, I'll be curious for other folks' thoughts. Like, I'm not a sex worker, so I don't want to say, you know, one way or the other,

Starting point is 01:19:52 the hell do I know. But I guess I was surprised to see so many people saying that the only thing that matters here is that this performer would be getting more money and a bigger audience. It's like, well, there are other things that matter in life, you know? Yeah, I also would be so curious for any sex workers or people involved with this to write in and let us know how they feel about it. You know, I certainly don't want to judge sex workers if that's the thing that, like, worked with them, but like we cover a lot of heinous shit on this podcast. And for some reason,

Starting point is 01:20:24 this story is like one of the most grim, most depressing to me, the idea that there's like this whole economy that only fans, models and sex workers are like participating in where they, like the one woman was made to cry. And because she got some money that's supposed to be good for her, that is like some of the darkest shit I feel we have talked about. Yeah. One before, were told Wired that appearing on a stream where she was mocked and degraded meant that her followers shut up and that she had her best earning month ever. The humiliation is the content. That content drives traffic and that traffic drives money.

Starting point is 01:21:03 And I think it's something that's important here to note is that these Manosphere influencers like Peters, they're liars and grifters and scammers and who they are scamming and lying to is their own audience. Because Manosphere influencers, they make this content. perrating sex workers while also making money from those same sex workers. So they're lying to impressionable men and boys who watch them and they say, oh, sex workers are disgusting. You should degrade sex workers while profiting from those same sex workers.

Starting point is 01:21:36 Peters allegedly runs his own only fans agency on the side. So he is directly profiting from the same women that he degrades on these live streams. He just obviously keeps that quiet because he has trained his all. audience into hating sex workers while he himself is managing and making money from sex workers, a grifter. Like that's just a liar. That's a liar, right. And it's worth pointing out that that is different from, like, if you're into a humiliation

Starting point is 01:22:04 kink, like a consensual humiliation kink, that's one thing. But it sounds like he is actively deceiving his audience in ways that seem likely to be dangerous. Yeah, I completely agree. And the reason that I'm talking about this on the podcast is that it's not about Peters. It's not about one individual live streamer. This is a business model. Fresh and fit do this. You know, Andrew Tate does this.

Starting point is 01:22:33 We watched that Louis Thoreau Manosphere documentary. This is a business model where these guys denigrate porn performers and sex workers, but also benefit from their exact same business model. They own agencies. They manage sex workers. And so it's, yeah, it's really a business model based on lying to men and boys for views and money. More after a quick break. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? The College, LaCity, you offer the program Dependence and Sentence Mental.

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Starting point is 01:24:16 Why do I watch the World Cup? That's like asking me, why do I breed? I inherited that fandom from my mom. I like watching it with my dad. It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. We go beyond the game to the people and the stories that make it great.

Starting point is 01:24:43 A soccer game is a festival. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I took an elbow to my head, which cracked my skull. It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though. Are they the only ones that don't like that? Nobody likes that.

Starting point is 01:24:59 As we get ready for the Men's World Cup this summer, listen to American Football as part of the My Coutura Podcast Network, available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer. And that was more difficult.

Starting point is 01:25:33 There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. All right, Mike. Can I take you home with something that I know that you know, I live for, which is low stakes drama. Yes.

Starting point is 01:26:04 After that story, I am ready for a pallet cleanser. Give me something low stakes. Feed it to me, Bridget. Okay. I also love book talk drama and this like drama in the book and literary community because I guess I consider myself part of that community. But yeah, you soon will be an author once the audiobook, Levit First Prompt, comes out on July 14th, which I should remind,

Starting point is 01:26:28 listeners, if you pre-order it and take a screenshot and send it in, we will send you a sticker. We've sent out a bunch of stickers. Thank you, everybody who has done it. So excited for that to go live so that we can start hearing people's reactions. Yeah, but you've written an audiobook. You're part of the literary world now, Bridget. Oh my gosh. Don't remind me. I'm nervous because I'm nervous. I just know how rabid, myself included, readers are. And it's like, yeah, tear them apart. And then it's like, wait, no, nobody leave me mean reviews. There's a lot there. I do suspect people are going to have things to say about it. But I hope people like it. I think it's good. This is like when I found out I was in a book group with the thriller novelist,

Starting point is 01:27:19 Frida McFadden. And I had just been straight shitting on one of her books. And then she left a comment. And I was like, oh, I didn't know you were in the group. It's like, it's fine when I am tearing apart a writer, but everybody would be nice to meet. Yeah. Listeners should just assume that Bridget is in all of the groups. Yeah, I'm watching. No, I actually, I think it's important for readers to have a community to, like, talk shit about what they've read without worrying about hurting the author's feelings. So as long as they're not tagging me or something, you know, say what you got to say.

Starting point is 01:27:54 But here is what's going on. And also shout out to listener Stevie F, who DM'd me about this on Instagram and kind of sent me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. So big glaring note up top. I am not a lawyer. So I am giving this to you from a layperson's perspective. So I'm just going to sort of summarize what's going on. There's this artist named Ali Rose, who runs Ali Roseco, who makes stickers and shirts and hoodies. She recently started focusing specifically on the book community, making things like a color-swatch

Starting point is 01:28:27 bookmark, which actually does look kind of cool, and shirts that say the phrase, hot girls read. Ali Rose announced on social media that she had secured a trademark for the phrase hot girls read. According to trademark records, the mark covers certain categories of merchandise, including things like notebooks, t-shirts, sweatshirts, bookmarks, and stickers. She made this celebratory but now deleted post on her Instagram stories, highlighting that she was thrilled to be able to get this Hot Girls Read trademark and that ended with her saying, quote, I've seen Hot Girls Read on lots of items from other businesses that follow me.

Starting point is 01:29:08 So if that is you, please remove those listings from your side as soon as possible. Heart with love. Oh, man, just put the heart emoji in the cease and desist. It's so passive-aggressive, like a little, like, not like, I'm telling you to cease and desist with love, though. Also, four exclamation points after love? Four exclamation points after love, but she couldn't spell out your. The y-er is, you are, not Y-O-U-R. So you couldn't spell, you couldn't take the four characters to spell out your, but you could throw in four exclamation points?

Starting point is 01:29:46 Come on now. Just a fun, flirty, cease-and-d-d-sist. or I'll sue you kind of message. Yeah, just a fun, flirty threat. Okay, so how was this received? Not well, bitch, and the words of Derinda Medley, bringing it back to Bravo. Not well, bitch.

Starting point is 01:30:04 The problem is hot girls read is a phrase, has been a phrase for a really long time. I have a mug that says this. Like, it is a thing. It is a widely used phrase across booktok, bookstagram, and other online reading communities. and lots of other readers and authors and importantly small business owners

Starting point is 01:30:25 have argued that it has already become a common cultural slogan rather than a brand associated with a single company. My understanding is that, and again, I'm no lawyer, but how trademark law works to my understanding is that it has to be a phrase that is like associated with you. You are doing something with this phrase. This is a phrase that people associate with you, specifically. So I couldn't just trademark any old thing if it did not have a prior association

Starting point is 01:30:56 with me and that I did not already have a business entity or have clear plans to do something business-wise with this phrase. Otherwise, you could just trademark anything willy-nilly. That sounds about right. That's my also not a lawyer understanding that there are some very specific rules for like what you can trademark and what you cannot. I also, this is just my opinion, I think saying hot girl blank has its roots in hip hop, right? Like Meg the stallion being like, Hot Girl Summer, like that kind of took off. That, I mean, that's, I was captioning Instagram pictures with Hot Girl. Like, I have a picture of me in a hot tub. It says Hot Girl Fall from like 2018. So this has been a phrase for a long time. I think that's

Starting point is 01:31:41 where the roots are. So obviously don't love the idea of commodifying something that has its roots and community, but particularly something that is like something that's sort of started by black women. I don't love the idea of somebody, a non-black woman saying, I'm going to trademark that. And actually, you're in violation of my trademark. Yeah, I did, you know, as much as I appreciate the fun, casual tone of her post, there are a few things that like boil my blood more than somebody taking a public good and being like, I owe this now. Oh, I know this about you. That is like a specific thing that like gets under your

Starting point is 01:32:20 skin. Yeah. So the backlash really intensified after screenshots that I saw showing requests that she had made for other sellers to remove products featuring the phrase hot girls read. I can't verify

Starting point is 01:32:36 whether or not these are real but I did see screenshots of other small business owners appearing to have been DM by this person and saying, hey, I got the trademark for this. You need to take this down. And so a lot of folks who had been using Hot Girls Read long before this trademark was filed,

Starting point is 01:32:55 started worrying that this enforcement could harm their business. And these are people who feel like they helped popularize this slogan. One thing I should note is that my understanding is that the trademark does not apply to every use of the phrase in every context. the registration that she filed, it has to be tied to specific merchandise categories, like stickers or mugs or, you know, sweatshirts or something. And I think that that detail often gets lost in the social media discussion that she can't come after you just for, you know, saying hot girls read or like,

Starting point is 01:33:31 if you were selling like a car wrapper that said that or something, she couldn't come after you for that. It's like specific merchandise categories. So she deleted her celebratory post and then put up a much longer, much more somber post. A lot fewer exclamation points than yellow heart emojis than this one. Here's what she said. I've seen and read a lot of people's anger about me trademarking Hot Girls Read, so I want to chat about it and clear up some things the best I can. I filed this trademark to protect my products from others copying it, which is common to do when selling products.

Starting point is 01:34:05 I was advised to trademark it when I initially started to gain traction from the bookmarks and sweatshirts in 2023. At that time, I didn't see anyone with apparel or bookmarks that said Hot Girls Read, although I'm not denying that they existed. Since the trademark went through, I haven't come after any small businesses bookstores that sell products saying Hot Girls Read, asking them to take anything down directly. I did post a story outlining the categories I had the trademark in, giving a heads up that those items are included, and I asked that if you have Hot Girls items in those categories to take them down from your site. There have been businesses that copied my work in its entirety,

Starting point is 01:34:42 and the message was for them, although I see why it seemed like it came from a place of aggression or malice toward other small businesses that I was not referring to. My message wasn't clear and I don't like the way it sounded. The goal is and was not meant to come after small businesses. I don't intend to do that whatsoever. This trademark was simply to protect myself. So that statement sounds good, but again, not a lawyer. Almost none of it rings true to me. First of all, I have seen those screenshots of business owners saying that they received DMs from her saying, I own this trademark now, please take this down.

Starting point is 01:35:20 Again, I have not been able to verify those screenshots, but I have seen them. So like her saying, I haven't come after any small businesses, unless these people are like faking these screenshots, which they could be doing, you know, I don't know. Like, it does seem like that is what she's doing. And again, from my understanding of trademark law, and this isn't based on nothing. I've had conversations with attorneys about trademarks for my own stuff. And so like, this is informed by, again, I'm not a lawyer, but this is informed by those conversations. My understanding is that if you file for a trademark, it is then up to you to uphold that trademark and prevent other businesses from using it, right? So saying, oh, well, I

Starting point is 01:36:00 didn't go after this because I intend to go after other small businesses that are using this phrase that I trademarked, I think if you apply for a trademark, it is up to you to do exactly that. Otherwise, they could argue your trademark is diluted. You don't actually, you're not actually using this trademark in any meaningful way. Anybody can use it any way they want. And so if you are not actually intending to protect and fight for your trademark, which I'm sorry, it kind of does look like going after other businesses and saying, don't use my trademark phrase, there's no kind of real point of doing a trademark in the first place. Also not a lawyer, but that is also. Also my understanding of the situation with trademarks is that it is on the owner of the trademark to aggressively enforce it and go after anybody who tries to use it in order to assert your ownership over.

Starting point is 01:36:53 So her just saying, I just did this as a lot. First of all, her saying, if you're using my phrase, stop, and then saying, I didn't intend to go after any small businesses. It's like, I'm sorry, but it sounds like that's exactly what you intended just. own that. I feel like the phrase small businesses in this conversation is playing the same role as like real Americans where it's like, what exactly are you talking about? Like, what is a small business? Well, the plot thickens

Starting point is 01:37:24 because fantasy author, Michelle Khalil, didn't like any of this. And Michelle is now helping other small business owners fight back. She started to go fund me, which reached its goal in just like a day to give you a with how fired up people are. The GoFundMe reads,

Starting point is 01:37:41 Ali Rose Co has trademarked the common phrase of Hot Girls Read, which will screw over smaller businesses and creators for no good reason. Ali Rose did not invent this phrase. And she also did not trademark her business name. So here we are. This GoFundMe is going toward legal fees to trademark Ali Rose Co, Ali Rose's company name that, surprisingly, according to this, She did not trademark, so they were trying to trademark her own company name.

Starting point is 01:38:12 Oh, man, just like trolling, playing out in the arena of trademark law, I guess. Yikes. Yikes, indeed. And I will say something else. I did see this sort of interesting thing happening where a lot of people are sticking up for Allie and saying, oh, she's being bullied. You know, she took down her post, her celebratory post. listen, nobody should be sending her threats and like a lot of hate and all of that. I agree with that.

Starting point is 01:38:42 But also, come on, right? In my opinion, if you are savvy enough to be trademarking this common phrase for your financial benefit, you can handle the community that you're trying to make money from speaking up about it. Like the book community is a very passionate community. But like people saying this isn't cool, people saying it feels like you're trying to commodify this community, I feel like you can't be a savvy enough businesswoman to trademark and try to commodify and make money off of this community phrase and also simultaneously be a baby that needs to be protected from people expressing their thoughts about it. As Bethany Frankel often says,

Starting point is 01:39:24 you can't play smart and stupid at the same time, sweetie pie. This is a little Bravo-themed episode. It is. I think that's fine. Anyway, this is very much an ongoing conversation. I want to know your thoughts. I'm kind of down a rabbit hole on this one. If you are paying attention to this bookstagram trademark, dispute, please let us know what you think. If you have thoughts on Vanderpump Rules or just the Bravo universe,

Starting point is 01:39:55 let me know that too. We've solicited a lot of listener feedback in this episode, which is great because we love to receive it. Listeners can leave a comment on Spotify. Bridget reads all of them, replies to many. You can send us an email at hello at tangoati.com, and you can follow Bridget on various social platforms at Bridget Marie in D.C. Beautiful.

Starting point is 01:40:22 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me. Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple

Starting point is 01:40:52 podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's that time to put on your jersey and wave your flag, whoever you root for. Why do I watch the World Cup? That's a lot. That's a like asking me, why do I breed? And it's beautiful. The guys are young and cute and fit. It's not just a game. It's your culture. I like watching it with my dad.

Starting point is 01:41:28 It's a connecting force. From Futuro Studios, I'm Fernanda Chavari, and this is American Football, a show about soccer culture in the U.S. and its underdog roots. Listen to American Football on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - Clavicular is back; George Santos scams; Summer House tech drama; Instagram Hacked; Hot Girls Read™ - NEWS ROUNDUP!

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