There Are No Girls on the Internet - Debunking “Trans Terror” Moral Panic After the Minneapolis Shooting

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Rightwing media often spread the myth that trans people are violent or dangerous — a false narrative with zero evidence. These “trans terror” stories persist online and in the news, fueling real-world harm against the trans community. In this episode, Bridget and producer Joey Patt unpack the origins of these myths, explain why they stick, and show how the false idea of “trans terror” makes everyone less safe.   A Trans Pilot Was Falsely Blamed for a Plane Crash. Now She’s Fighting the Right-Wing Disinfo Machine: https://www.wired.com/story/a-trans-pilot-was-falsely-blamed-for-a-plane-crash-now-shes-fighting-the-right-wing-disinfo-machine/   If you’re listening on Spotify, leave us a comment there! (Bridget personally reads them all!) or email us at [e-mail]   Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media  ||  instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc || tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc ||  youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are no girls on the internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is there are no girls on the internet. Something that should surprise nobody in America is that school only recently just started back, and already there was a school shooting at a Catholic school in Minneapolis, Minnesota, last week, that left an 8-year-olds and a 10-year-old dead and injured 17 others, according to the Minneapolis police chief, Brian O'Hara. The three weapons used in the attack were purchased legally, police officials said.

Now, I wanted to talk about this shooting with my producer, Joey. Joey, thank you so much for being here. Hey, thanks for having me on, Bridget. you know, regardless of it being sort of a less than not so great topic today. Yeah, and it's kind of coincidental because you and I had been working on an episode about the way trans people are consistently and unfairly blamed for tragedies or mass shootings or mass acts of violence online before all the details are even really clear. And so I was offline when this shooting happened and a friend pinged me and said,

oh, look at this school shooting. It looks like the shooter was trans. And I said, oh, I'm very online. I know what's going on here. You know, this is a familiar trope to me. It's a thing that happens after a mass shooting online. The internet circulates to say that the suspect is trans. And it turned out when more information came in

that this suspect actually was trans. Yeah, I had kind of a similar experience where one of my good friends works in, you know, broadcast news. and she had texted me and was like, well, she had texted like, you know, our group chat and was like, this happened. That was the first. I had heard of it and was like, oh, the shooter's trans.

And my immediate response was, oh, well, like, are they sure? Because, like, they say this every time. So, like, I don't know. And she was like, no, I'm literally looking at, like, the name change document right now. And I was like, oh, well, that's a twist. I guess if you say it enough times, it will happen. Again, like you said, coincidental timing. I think, like, obviously what happened, this is, like, terrible. And even backtracking a little bit,

something I was thinking about this morning or, like, when we were planning this episode was the fact that even when I kind of first heard, like, oh, there was this shooting that happened. Something that really, I think, struck me was the fact that I was like, it was almost the fact that I didn't even really feel like I had a response. Like I was kind of just like, oh, another shooting. Okay. Like this is so standard at this point. It's like really disappointing to see how much it's like I almost kind of felt like I was like expecting this. You know, like this happened so frequently at this point.

It like barely even like registered. But yeah, obviously this kind of complicates the situation. And, you know, glad we're talking about it, if anything. Yeah. So here's what we know about the. the shooter, Robin Westman, who police said died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound in the church parking lot after the shooting. I've seen it reported as a manifesto, but I would not describe a document like that using the word manifesto, because I think it gives the wrong connotation. I think

it's kind of like what people like this might want. But even in that regard, when I looked at what they were calling a manifesto, it really is sort of stream of consciousness, videos and writings, where she definitely fixates on violence, a real obsession with school shooters and guns, right? But even in her writing, she says things like there is no message and this is not about religion. It is certainly not the kind of online presence

that I think that anyone can really use to paint a clear portrait of a motive other than this is clearly a disturbed person who at times references the fact that she know she is disturbed. Like she knows she has these issues. She talks about how I grew up in a good family with a good support system. And yet, in every situation I've ever been in, and every school and every job I've ever been in, I've had these kinds of dark fantasies, right? And so I, it's, we don't really

have a lot of clarity on motive just yet. But what we do know is that as a 17-year-old, Westman filed a court document to change her first name to Robin. The document says that Westman, quote, identified as female and wants her name to reflect that identification. I also heard this morning that I guess they're also in her journal or in the shooter's journals there's maybe some evidence of this is somebody who like was considering detransitioning or like maybe identifies differently now which again I think kind of like further complicates this where it's like you know obviously like we're going to have to talk about the fact that she identified as trans at some point but kind of almost going back to what you said about the like stream of conscious videos and a lot of the other stuff that

as I come out about like her like fixation on school shooters and stuff like that. Like there's so much other things going on that very clearly I have more to do with the actual motive than whether or not this person is trans. But yeah, it does appear that at some point she did identify as female. She did change that to reflect like change her name and gender marker in some cases to reflect that. That's really good context. And I think adds credence to my sort of overall point about that.

this is that this just happened. You know, you and I are recording on Friday, August 29th. This just happened. And I think as investigators do their jobs, more will become clear. We might get more information. But I think it's the online rush to zero in on this one part of this person's identity to say, and that's why she did this thing. And I mean, I know the people who are doing that are doing it with intention. So I'm not telling that. I'm not saying anything. I would say that they don't already know that they're doing. But it just goes to show how we can't have a full conversation about what's happening with this tragedy. Two kids are dead. And I think that we owe it to those kids and their communities and their families and people who love them to have a full accounting of what happened here,

not just zeroing in on one tidy, convenient narrative, which it sounds like even that narrative is more complicated than the people who are boosting it would have you believe. Right. And it's like every time this happens, there's always, you know, the conversation about gun regulation and how like in gun violence and gun culture. And that also is also like always immediately like, no, no, no, no, we can't talk about that. And it's like, interesting that it's like, of all of the things that it's aspects of this conversation that we should be having, we're going to end up having to dedicate so much unnecessary airtime to the fact that this person identified as trans at one point, maybe still did.

Again, yeah, still, story is still developing. This is something that I read like literally a couple hours ago. So who's to say what we'll know in a week? But yeah, there's just, there's so many different elements here. And I feel like I want to emphasize the point that it's like, we're talking about the fact that she may or may not have been trans. because we're kind of forced to have that conversation. That is a great way to put it.

We're forced to have that conversation and not have conversations about all the... I mean, a good place to start might be gun regulation. I don't know. What? No. And so the mayor of Minneapolis has been urging the public to avoid scapegoating trans folks

in the wake of this tragedy. The mayor said, quote, I've heard a whole lot of hate directed at our trans community. anybody that is using this as an opportunity to villainize our trans community or any other community out there has lost their sense of common humanity. We should not be operating out of a place of hate for anyone. We should be operating out of a place of love for kids. Kids died today. This needs to be about them.

And so kind of like what you were saying, Joey, it is unfortunate that the shooter's identity has been thrust in the forefront in this way to the point where we need to be even making this episode kind of debunking the way that people on the right online have been talking. about this because it really obscures the fact that these kids who were, you know, had parents who loved them were part of a community that loved them, that this should be about them. But because of the way that extremists have talked about this shooting and amplified narratives about this shooting and amplified narratives about other incidents in the past that had nothing to do with trans people, we are kind of forced to be debunking this idea about sort of trans terror. And so according to police, we don't even really. really know much yet today when we're recording this about the motive. But that does not stop

the FBI from labeling the shooting as both an act of terrorism and a hate crime against Catholics. And in like extremist MAGA online circles on social media, the term that they are circulating is the deepest of air quotes on this one, trans terrorism. And I've heard other iterations of it like trans Tifa, essentially this false idea that trans people, are more likely to commit public acts of violence that is constantly repeated online. Have you seen this? Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. I have, but trans Tifa.

This is the first time hearing of trans Tifa. Okay, I actually know. I was about to be like, I do believe the trans community could have come up with a better name than that, but actually, I'm not sure about that. Trans Tifa, though, that is, okay. God, I'm licking on what, who it was specifically that said this, but it was like some right-wing figure. They literally said something where they were like the trans terrorism that's like the most dangerous homegrown terrorism right now. And I was like, I'm so sorry. Have you met like a single

trans? I mean, obviously not because you wouldn't be saying this shit if you had. But I was like the idea of like this trans shadow terrorist group that's operating in this country. Like what the hell are you talking about? I don't know. It's ridiculous. Every barista in this country is actually a sleeper agent. Yeah, I mean, in their fantasy, every barista, maybe like everybody with blue hair or something is, yeah, it's like a sleeper agent that is just one bad tip away from going full joker or something. Truly, that is how people talk about the trans community online. I'm sorry, I think you mean the woker. I really want to take this seriously and not make jokes about this,

but I was reading through so much about this and I was like, oh, God, like, this is where we're at. This is where we're at. This is the, yeah. So none of this, I mean, I don't need to tell you. None of this is new. According to a report from Glad, social media accounts with a clear history of anti-trans rhetoric frequently and importantly, falsely, accused trans people of crimes, particularly mass shooting events before facts are known.

And so just like in this case, the day that the shooting happened, people were already circulating this sort of trans terror claim. But the fact is there is no evidence of escalating violence committed by LGBTQ people. And extremism and domestic terrorism experts told PolitiFact, there is no widespread threat of growing radicalization or violence from the trans population. Now, accusing folks from a small and likely vulnerable community of being responsible for mass shootings is just clearly like you're trying to dehumanize them, other them, demonize them, and generally promote fear around trans folks and non-binary folks.

And I think the important thing for folks to note is that we're talking about a situation where the shooter, it sounds like, identified as trans at one point or another. Oftentimes, this happens whether or not a trans person had anything to do with it at all. Yeah. This was also making me think about, I mean, again, before kind of learning this now, I expect that maybe they now don't identify as trans. Before learning that, I was thinking about the fact that it's like, the problem with so much of this, like, just idiotic misinformation around trans people, around queer people,

around gay people, is that, like, there's always going to be the one person that amplifies that thing. Like, I was talking to a friend recently about, like, all of the, you know, when right-wing weirdos want to be like, oh yeah, gay people are all like pedophiles or all predators. And it's like, okay. And then you can find like the one person to point to to be like, there like, there was a like director we were talking about where we were like, oh yeah, I remember like they came out and then it immediately was revealed that they were like a pedophile and all this shit. And it was like, it sucks because you're always going to be able to find the one person. But then at the same time, it's like, right, because people are just people and there's shitty people no matter what you

identify as like for that one like there's also a bazillion like straight people that are pedophiles or straight people that are going to do mass shootings when you look at the actual numbers most you know mass shooters most school shooters they are white cis heterosexual men so like but yeah but the problem is like at the end of the day you're always going to be able to find like the one person that is like doing the really bad thing. And, you know, it's easy for if you're trying to demonize a group of people, point to that one person as like representative of an entire group. This happens for literally every marginalized group. You know, this is like what's at the root of like, you know, Islamophobia and racism. And you could always find the one person to be like, see that that is what the problem is.

And I think that is like the thing that makes me nervous about this. Absolutely. I was thinking the same thing, but you put that so well because I definitely feel this as a black person where I have to be the representative of black people everywhere. Right. And so it is dehumanization in that you, it's what you are not judged by what you do, your behavior. You are judged and scrutinized by the behavior of others. And so, you know, and it's interesting to me because as the research shows, and we'll talk about it in a moment, but the research just could not be clear. that the majority of mass shootings are, as you said, perpetrated by white cis men. That is just a fact. And I don't think we have a culture that demands that white men writ large need to answer for the behavior of the men who are largely behind

these instances of mass violence. Yet I think that when you do have, you know, one-off, marginalized people who unfortunately do things like this, the entire group is judged by those one-off people's actions and behavior. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's when you have any sort of marginalized an entity, you are always not seen as an individual. You are seen as a representative of that group versus like if you are, obviously if you're a cis white man, but honestly, like anybody, like I'm somebody who like, I'm white. If I do something stupid, nobody's going to be like, see, this is proof that like white people are like that. as a trans person if I do something stupid

that will probably be seen as oh see y'all are crazy but it's like yeah like it is like if you have any sort of marginalized identity you are kind of seen as exemplifying that community where if you are part of the kind of more privileged side of that you don't experience that

you are seen as an individual you're seen as you know these like lone wolf shooters that nobody knows why it happened again it feels like I feel like I've had this conversation so many times because it's like it is the same story. I think it's just like right now we're having this again because this really is one of the first really prominent stories where it has been like a trans person that is been at the center of this. And the point I want to make about this is that this is identity based disinformation. It might not look like it.

It might not be the kind of thing that traditionally disinformation researchers would call out as disinformation, but the way that trans people are baselessly blamed and connected to tragedies, mass shootings, instances of mass violence, that is, to me, identity-based disinformation. And I see it over and over again. And I would be willing to bet that if you spend any time on social media, you have probably seen this kind of thing play out online already, because there is a particular image that I can see it in my head of a kind of person with blonde, shaggy hair holding a rifle that often circulates online, claiming that it shows the perpetrator of whenever there's a shooting or a tragedy or an instance of mass violence. And it claims to show this person who the comments say

is trans. But it is actually a very well-worn image to the point that it's almost a meme. It's an image of this guy, Sam Hyde, who is an extremist comedian and YouTuber. He has his, we can do a whole episode on him. There's a lot to say about him, but that's just that's who it is. kind of also like taking a wider look at this issue, I do think it's really interesting that that photo is a cis man. Yeah. Because like I've seen that photo a million times too and I'll be real. Like I always kind of just assumed it was some random trans person until like listening to the episode that you did with stuff. Mom never told you about this where you talked about this same image. And I think it just goes to show again like taking a sort of wider look at what happens when this sort

transphobic rhetoric becomes so normalized is it's like, oh, you see somebody with long hair and you're immediately going to be like, it is narrowing the gender roles again. Like if you were looking at all of this through like a very transphobic lens, it's like, yeah, we're going back to these like very, very strict gender roles where like you can have a cis man with long hair and use that image to be like, see, they're trans or they, you know, the way that these people are going to say it is going to be like, they think they're a woman or whatever. I'm not saying that I agree with that rhetoric.

But it's like, I don't know. I find it kind of cis people, I think, like, if you want to make it about yourselves, if you really want to, like, not have to human, whatever, like, think about the fact that it's like all of this bad rhetoric is going to come back to just make gender roles more strict and more restrictive and just bad for everybody regardless of, you know, whether you're trans or cis or whatever. Don't even get me started on this because this is the drum that I beat. This is a tantal.

but it's a drum that I beat all the time. So as you said, if you are someone who doesn't give a fuck about the humanity of trans people, and you're like, I only care about me, and that's your orientation, fine, okay. I don't share that orientation, but got you. When you get into a place where you are so strictly policing the gender of other people along this very narrow understanding of gender, that shit always comes back around, right? Exactly. It is especially disappointing to me when I see this from other people.

black cis women who will say like oh well you know where they will say they will say things that are very transphobic and I always think like nobody who is cisgender gets transphobically compared to men like black cis women that is like when you want to when people wanted to insult Michelle Obama the go-to insult was oh she's really a man she looks like a man da da da da if you can't see the clear line from policing the gender of other people to that shit coming back around to you, I don't know what to tell you. And so if you're someone who doesn't care about the humanity of trans folks and are only caring about yourself, when you, I mean, it's like Beyonce said,

when you play me, you play yourself. When you, when you play those games, it comes back around to us. And so exactly. I just have to say that. Like, it is, it especially hurts coming from other cis black women because I just know that like our gender is so scrutinized. The way that whatever we've got going on with gender, wherever we're at, that is so scrutinized. And it's like, why would you want to participate in that kind of climate for somebody else?

When you know what I'm saying? It's just, yes. I'll move on. Yeah. No, absolutely, though. I mean, it's, yeah, and I, not to go on too much of a tangent, but like literally every issue where like trans-movia is through the conversation about sports right now and like trans people's participation in sports, it's like that is. maybe the most obvious way we're seeing it come back around and like also hurt cis people. But it's like, yeah, like, just because you're going after us as like your top target,

like, y'all are next. Yes. This is not. If we get to the point where we're starting to police people's gender like this, it's not going to stop because it hasn't. We've seen this. Like, we've been seeing this for years now. And it's insane.

We're at the point where like, yeah, again, there was that story a couple weeks ago about like a cis woman who like was being sexually her brass in like a buffalo wild wings bathroom because the like server didn't believe that she was like quote unquote really a woman and like it was like yeah there should be a wake up call to the rest of you if you really like do not care about us at least care about yourselves i don't know let's take a quick break another podcast from some s nl late night comedy guy not quite unhumor me with robert smigel and friends me and whole hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter.

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since high school. Now a redacted amount of years later. We're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips, wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drink. Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a bogo. Well, then you got it. Do you want a white collar or something here? Just take it. What are y'all doing? Microphones? Are you making a rap album? Oh, I would. Come on.

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I'm not a killer. I love this team and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. So we're talking about what happens when trans people are baselessly blamed

for instances of mass violence or tragedy online. So in 2023, a fact checker and journalist named Bill McCarthy described that whenever you sees a mass shooting, his heart does not just sink for the victims and their families and their communities, but it also sinks because he knows that other completely blameless people will be falsely accused of being the killer

with their pictures splashed all over the internet. In a piece called mass shootings, the other innocent victims, McCarthy really shed light into this where after a mass shooting in Nashville, that picture of Sam Hyde, who is not trans, was misidentified as both being the perpetrator and trans. McCarthy writes, shortly after police said they responded to a shooting, I opened Twitter and ran a simple keyword search.

Nashville shooter identified. According to dozens of results, the city's officials had already singled out a perpetrator. It was a trans woman named Samantha Hyde, the post claim. Now, that image, at this point, it's, I mean, I think of it as a meme, but like, it actually did originate as a meme on 4chan. So when a shooting happens or a tragedy happens, it's like a meme to circulate this image of Sam Hyde and say that it's a suspect and that they're trans. Internet users have been trying to trick people into believing that Hyde was behind so many tragedies over the years. There was also an attempt in that Nashville shooting to pin the attack on Clara Sorrenti, a trans activist and video game streamer that people might.

know as Keppels, who folks might recall we did an episode on this kind of a while ago, was forced to flee her Canada home after being targeted by an online harassment campaign. It's not just Nashville. After the Uvaldi shooting in Texas, this photo of an actual trans woman named Sam, so not the cis comedian named Sam, different Sam, actual trans woman, was circulated on social media, claiming that she was the perpetrator. She had to actually post an image of herself saying, like, hey, I am alive because the shooter in that attack, was killed by police. And, you know, I have to say, like, I've never even been to Texas.

I live in Georgia. I mean, the way that people have to prove to strangers on the Internet that they're not involved in these crimes when they had nothing to do with it, I mean, I just can't imagine what that would be like. But that has not stopped these claims from going viral, from harming innocent trans people. And then also just creating this false idea, I would say intentionally so, that trans people are linked to violence. and are dangerous.

Yeah, I mean, like you said again, it's all just part of this narrative of trying to paint this picture of trans folks as dangerous as like, it's somehow, you know, like it's because of like, quote unquote mental illness. It's, these are coming from folks that are ready to see being trans as like, again, like quote unquote mental illness,

not as like a real way of identifying. And plenty of cis people are mentally ill and somehow that's never like, I don't know. Again, it is just, it's scapegoating. It is like a convenient excuse to say like the problem isn't like the fact that we live in a country that just has a deep history of violence that like we have had, you know, problems with gun violence that like gun regulation is just kind of like non-existent in this country. It's like no, no, no, it's this specific thing that we also don't like for other arbitrary reasons and it's just easy and convenient for us to tie them together when that's not what's happening. of the time. So this actually brings me to something that happened in DC, where I live, which was the plane crash that happened earlier this year. There is a great piece in Wired that will link in the show notes that folks should read. A trans pilot was falsely blamed for a plane crash. Now she's fighting the right-wing disinfoam machine. It was published earlier the summer

that really unpackes this issue in a great way. So in January, there was this deadly plane crash in D.C. where a helicopter crashed into a plane. Both of them landed in the Potomac River. 67 people all died. It was a very dark time in DC. I remember folks might know this that I work part-time for a DC-based podcast called Citicast DC. And DC is a pretty small community. And so the way that this really just loomed large at a time when DC was our, we continue to be going through a lot. But at a time we were going through a lot was really rough. And I think what made it even rougher was that, and I promise I won't get on my DC soapbox, but because people are so used to disrespecting D.C. and discounting D.C. and not thinking of D.C. as like a real place where real people

live. It's just like a seat of national power to a lot of people. I think the way that this was a hard tragedy for our local D.C. community to take was really ignored. And I think that's why Trump and his administration really felt okay. Literally, I mean this literally, They were bodies still in the river while these people were lying about what happened with this plane crash. Right. And I think that one of the reasons why that was okay is not just because these people are ghouls, which they are, but also is because people in D.C. are not seen as real Americans or real people the way that other parts of the country are. So, you know, it really sucked. And as much as it was a dark time for D.C., it also became a dark time for this woman. named Joe Ellis, who is a transgender National Guard pilot, who was falsely blamed for the deadly DC crash.

Now, to be super clear, Ellis was not involved in this at any capacity, was just simply not involved. However, a few days before this crash, Ellis published an essay about what it's like being a trans pilot in the National Guard. So this and this alone was enough for right-wing influencers with millions of followers across the internet to baselessly, her of being responsible for this crash. So basically what happened is that Ellis wrote this piece called Living to Serve, Living as Myself, a transgender service member's perspective, where she describes

growing up in a family of service members and then joining the Virginia Army National Guard in 2009. In her piece, she describes sending an email to her command, giving them notice that she intended to start transitioning under the current in-service transition policy that policy has since been rescinded by the Trump administration. And she talks about how when she gave them that notice, she was met with overwhelming support from her team. What's interesting about this piece, it's just an interesting side note, is that it's clear that she's trying to debunk some pretty well-worn myths about how trans people get all this

free stuff. Like because she was in the military, the military is paying for all of this stuff. And she was like, oh, no, no, I paid out of pocket for all of my, all of my care. I paid for it all. So even in that piece, I feel like she's struck. Do you, do you ever hear this that like trans people get so much free stuff? Which I'm like, where is this free stuff? Why am I not getting any of it?

I mean, yeah, any sort of trans health care related thing, people hear it in their like free health care. And it's like, nobody said free. Like it operates the same way every health care thing in this country operates, which is terribly. You know, like this is what really like pisses me off. especially when we talk about, again, kind of a tangent issue, but I don't know where these free handouts are. If somebody knows, if somebody could get me like some connections, please let me know. I love free stuff. So I, this is, it is another example of like, unfortunately, like the right wing just thinks that like the left is way cooler than we actually

are. Like, yeah, I wish Joe Biden was like a communist who was just giving people free trans health care, but that was absolutely not what was happening. And yeah, and yet here we are. What's funny about this is that you can convince people online, especially when it comes to gender reforming care for minors, you can convince people, like, it's like a common sense and just the ability to think for five seconds goes out the window. People will say like, oh, there's doctors who are, you know, mutilating toddlers. And I, swear to you, someone once told me that they have heard a story where a doctor had given a boob job to like a five-year-old. And I was thinking, like, I cannot believe you believe this.

Think about it for five seconds. God, that was like back when the, all of the Target stuff was happening. Like, this was last year, I think, where people, there was like, they were like, they're selling binders for children at Target. And it was like, but like, toddlers don't need binders. You don't have boobs until you hit puberty. Like, I don't think about it. Like, that doesn't any sense. It's one of those things where if you thought about it for five seconds, it falls apart completely. If you just thought it through, just think it through. Sometimes I just want to tell these people, just think about it for the most idiotic claims. But yeah, this is what I'm saying. When it comes to moral panic around, especially like gender affirming care for minors,

you could convince them of anything. There's like not, there is not anything that is too far gone for these people to believe. You know what it is. I mean, I think the thing that I keep about back to and like thinking about the story too is like at the end of the day none of this is coming because of like logical assumptions like the hard thing is like I think it's really easy to fall into the trap of like wanting to like take the logical sign and be like here see here obviously all this stuff none of this is coming from like a place of logic this is coming from the fact that like they want to find a scapego they can say whatever the fuck they want and like just speak it into being true for people's like the way that

people see the world. I think it is important to talk about these things. It's important to emphasize the fact that like this stuff obviously isn't true because I do think like at the end of the day the people that are probably like the most, you know, the need to hear these things are like the parents of trans kids that maybe are like nervous about the fact that it's like yeah, obviously like we live in a very transphobic world. Your kids are going to have to deal with that. You're going to have to deal with that. But it's like helping them not get sucked into these like conspiracy theory rabbit holes. But like at the end of the day, the people that are that really truly believe this stuff that are saying these things, like, there's no way to debate them into admitting the truth, you know?

No. It's the whole like Ben Shapiro brain rot thing where he's very like, oh, like, debate me on this, whatever. Like, it's like you can't debate them. They just, they have their worldview. They know what's going to get them the response they want. And they're going to say that regardless of whether it's true or not. Yeah, it's not like, you can't debate with somebody who is committed to misunderstanding you. There's no, there's no point in it. And so with this woman, Ellis, so that's kind of a good segue into what happened with her. So after her piece was published, Ellis woke up to messages from a friend warning her that she had been named online as the pilot who killed innocent passengers in this deadly crash. So at first, Ellis was like, oh, this is just some sort of

mistake. Somebody has mistakenly connected me to the crash, probably because of that essay of describing what it's like being a trans pilot from Virginia. And this, this, this accident happened near Virginia. So when she logged on the Facebook, she sees both messages from friends that are like, oh my God, are you dead? Like, I heard that you were involved in this, this accident. Are you okay? And hateful, transphobic messages from people saying that they knew that she had been involved in this crash. So here is what happened. Right wing influencers were boosting lies that Ellis was involved in this crash on X, Matt Wallace, who has over two million followers, put out a post saying, that a trans Black Hawk pilot had written a letter about depression and gender dysphoria

the day before the crash. He went so far as to suggest that it was some kind of a trans terror attack. There's that phrase again. That post blew up, got almost five million views before he deleted it. Then Anne van der Steele, who was a pretty well-known QAnon personality with a very big following, jumped in and pushed the same false claim. Now, she eventually posted a retraction and it would not be an episode about transphobia online without mentioning Elon Musk. Musk's chatbot on X at Grock falsely named Ellis as the pilot, which only made this rumor spread faster. So before long, Ellis's name was trending as the second most talked about topic on X with more than 90,000 posts about her. She eventually had to put out a proof of life video on social media to reassure her community that she was not dead and to push

back against these lies. So after she published this, Matt Wallace, one of the people who initially pushed this claim, I will give credit where credit is due. He did update his post to say that Ellis was alive and not responsible for the crash. He did also shift blame to a different account. Wallace said that the account on X called fake gay politics, which has since been suspended, was where this claim originated. He said, this is apparently the first account who reported what we now know it's false. It seemed credible because Joe Ellis wrote an article calling out Trump's trans military ban only a few days ago. And of course, he goes on to misgender her in this post saying that he had been wrong about her causing this deadly crash in an act of trans terror,

because apparently the man just can't help himself. Yeah, I mean, they don't, they don't care at the end of the day. They don't see us as human beings. They don't see us as legitimate. So, yeah, I am curious if it's supposed to be this fake or this account that was suspended if it's like fake gay politics or if it's like fake and gay politics like is it fake politics about gay people

or is it politics that is both fake and gay? But you know I it's just like this is the world we're living and God. This reminds me of I what's this last? I can't remember this was last week or two weeks ago, whatever. Anyways, there was a

story we did in the news roundup recently about the Chris Formo getting got by an AOC like AI video where she was like talking about Cindy Sweeney or something. I don't know. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And like his response was basically like, oh, I guess it was AI, my bad. But also it seems like something she would say. And maybe we should talk about that. And it's like, so you're just saying, but like I believe in my fantasy world. This is true. So I think we should we should be mad at her about like it's like this thing where they're like but it it seems like something that would happen so it's an issue yeah any but it's not happening any any random thing I make up you need to be held accountable for yeah I made it exactly in Matt Wallace's follow-up

tweet being like well you know as you were saying it sounds like something she was talking about being depressed and you know da-da-da-da I actually read her article and it actually doesn't she talks about being depressed before she was able to transition. But in it, she describes like getting a lot of support, feeling that she has a good support system, being really happy, da-da-da-da. I think, I mean, it goes back to what you were saying about this default assumption that anybody who is trans or gender non-conforming is automatically mentally ill, depressed, deeply unhappy. Because her piece is very much her describing that she feels really good, feels really solid, wants. other people to feel as good and as solid as she does.

And still he says, oh, she's describing, you know, she sounds depressed. She's like, you know, it just, I think it really comes back to that underlying assumption that nobody who is trans or non-binary could also be happy, stable, you know, you know what I'm saying? Exactly, yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting because I think like even 10 years ago, obviously there are still families and places where this probably is also the rhetoric around gay people, But I'm thinking like 10 years ago. I am so many friends now that grew up with this sort of rhetoric about gay people

that were like, oh, if you're gay, you're going to be unhappy and depressed versus like now as adults. I don't know. Like, again, I'm lucky where like I live in New York City. I am in a fairly like progressive environment. But like, listen, I am depressed. I have depression. That is nothing to do with the fact that I am gay or trans or whatever.

that I know plenty of cis people that are depressed. I know plenty of... Most people I know these days are depressed because we live in a really messed up world right now. But yeah, it is like also like, yeah, shocking. If you are living a life that is like not authentic to yourself, if you are unable to be your true self, you're going to feel depressed.

And if you're in a place where you're able to transition, you're able to be the person that you really are, like on the inside, obviously you're going to feel better. You're going to feel happier than you were before. And it is like, yeah, if you go back and read that actual article that she wrote, that's what she's talking about is the fact that it's like, at the end of the day, all of what these people want is for trans people to just stay in the closet and stay as their assigned gender at birth. And it's like, great, that is, you're creating these like depressed, just like,

like the things that you think are going to happen if people transition. that's just what's going to happen if you continue to stay repressed. You're going to, not, you know, the terrorism part, but like the people are going to be depressed and miserable. And like that is what leads to suicide in a lot of cases. Not the fact that people are trans, the fact that people are not allowed to express themselves and to be like the person that they are, you know? Exactly. It is oppressive systems and lack of access to meaningful support systems that makes people unhappy. and makes people unwell and this idea that like, oh, well, and again, but trans people and queer people should not have to, I mean, yeah, let trans people be

depressed and sad. Like, they should not have to be like, oh, I'm super good. I'm super good. Because nobody is super good all the time. But what creates dynamics where it's not, it's not, it's not transness or queerness that makes people depressed. It is lack of access, lack of resources, lack of support. Like, we've created a system that allows us to blame people for,

for the things that our system denies them. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel,

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to be? The idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group.

The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You know me? I need some joke. to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows, without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series. because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup,

he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying.

He running up the court, licking his fingers while he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, I say, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the bomb. So listen to Point Game on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix. So we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges.

Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world, fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it.

Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. So we're talking about Joe Ellis, this trans pilot who extremists on the internet, falsely accused of being responsible for the deadly plane crash in D.C. earlier this year. Figures like Matt Wallace accused her of waging a trans terror attack, even though she had absolutely nothing to do with this crash. So from this point, Ellis'bush, basically went from being unknown in public to being somebody who felt like she could not even go

out in public because of her for fear of her own safety. She told the New York Times, my life was turned upside down at that point, adding that her employer sent armed bodyguards to protect her family and that she started carrying a loaded weapon as a precaution. Forever, I'm known as that trans-terrorist, she told the Times. So we've talked about this in a few other episodes of the podcast, but when online right-wing influencers, individual influencers, spread lies about people, we're seeing more and more that the people that they defame are fighting back via defamation lawsuits targeted at the people who spread demonstrably and hurtful lies about them. And so that's exactly what Ellis did. In April, she filed a defamation

suit against Matt Wallace saying that he was behind a destructive and irresponsible defamation campaign. The lawsuit against Wallace filed in the U.S. District Court of Colorado was a way for Ellis to seek damages for the harm that he caused her reputation, privacy, and safety. Ella said that Wallace has not counter filed, and the lawsuit was filed by the Equality Legal Action Fund, which is a group of volunteer attorneys and advocates who help members of the LGBTQ community fight online defamation. It does sound to me, like when I looked into this,

that it might be a little bit of a tricky gray area legally to individually sue an individual online influencer for what they've said about you. Parents of kids who died in the Sandy Hook shooting did successfully sue Alex Jones for defamation after he repeatedly claimed that the shooting that killed their kids was basically a hoax. And folks might remember that Dominion voting systems got a $787 million settlement from Fox News for claiming that their voting systems during the election were rigged against Trump.

So there is some precedent for suing businesses or business entities for defamation. But that's a little bit different than these one-off individual influencers on Twitter who spread damaging lies about people. And, you know, I hate that the only recourse for this kind of thing is suing people and taking it to the courts. But especially for marginalized people, there has to be some kind of accountability for this. There has to be some sort of like cost for spreading these kinds of damaging lies because these kind of lies can hurt people. You know, we've talked about Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss, the two black women in Georgia who were vote counters who Trump and Giuliani baselessly said that they had rigged the elect. they were hiding votes and rigging the election for Biden.

People showed up at their house and tried to force their way into their home to make a citizen's arrest because of that. So like, this is not something that just happens online. This translates to actual real world harm where people are putting their lives at risk because of the lies people spread about them online. Yeah, totally agree. I mean, it's, I wish there was another, like, like, I wish there was something that could have. happened before having to literally sue these people. But good for Joe Alice. I hope that that case goes in, you know, her favor. But yeah, it really, I think it's important to emphasize the fact that it's like, this isn't just like, oh, I'm getting a bunch of hate comments online. You can just

turn your phone off and not pay attention to it. It's like this is affecting people's like actual livelihood. It is affecting their ability to exist in public. And that should not be happening because that shouldn't be happening to anyone, but it's hard enough to exist as a trans person, as like a person of color, as a queer person, as anybody with any sort of marginalized identity right now. Like there shouldn't be an extra layer of being this level of like a target. And I hate that this is such a commonplace thing now because blaming trans folks for incidents that they literally had nothing to do with is not an isolated thing. The fact-checking database claim review shows that since 2022, there have been a dozen incidents where a transgender person was wrongly blamed for a tragedy or violent incident.

After the tragic deaths of Minnesota State Representative Lessa Hortman and her husband who were assassinated, Donald Trump Jr. said, quote, the radical transgender movement is per capita the most violent domestic terror threat in America, if not probably the entire world. And that shooter was not even trans. I think that was the quote I was thinking about earlier. I was like, I know there was something where somebody was like the most violent domestic terror threat. That was like, whoa.

Really? Are we sure about that? Yeah, no, that's crazy. That literally was like a right-wing attack that happened. Very explicitly and clearly. And after two people were killed in Wisconsin, Alex Jones, who really should. not be lying about anybody publicly tweeted, if the statistical trend continues with this tragic event,

there's a 98% chance the shooting is trans or gang related. If it's another trans whack job or gang shooting, it should be out of the news in less than 24 hours. So it should go without saying that this is all a complete lie. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of crime, not the perpetrators. This is from Wired. Research shows that trans people are four times more likely to be the victims of violence compared to cis people. According to Glad, between May 2024 and May 2025, there have been at least 26 injuries and one death reported among trans and gender non-conforming people, a 14% jump from the previous year. Meanwhile, claims that trans folks are behind mass shootings just does not add up. Per the gun violence archive,

there have been 4,400 mass shootings in the past decade, of which fewer than 10 known suspects were trans. That's 0.11%. And we know that things. like far-right extremism surpasses terrorism committed by others. This is according to political fact. And it needs to be said that these groups do tend to engage in violence that often targets LGBTQ people

and promotes LGBTQ views. So making the targets, the people who are the most targeted of this kind of domestic terror, flipping that around and being like, oh, they're the perpetrators. It's really blaming people for something bad that they're already at the center of.

Yeah, people actually don't. know this, but the, uh, Lee Harvey Oswald actually used she they pronouns, uh, that you covered this list.

Kidding. I'm not even, honestly, I feel like we're like two steps away from somebody transvestigating. Like, yeah, like a deep dive. But this exactly,

exactly like why you were saying. I mean, Glad has a lot of really great studies. Um, you know, shameless plug for a second. if you want to learn more about violence against the transcommunities, you should check out another show that I work on that's called After Lives.

Our first season was about this woman, Lailene Polanco, who passed away at Breaker's Prison due to kind of a series of just things that should not have happened, situations she should not have been in, largely because of the fact that she was a black trans woman. But something that we talked about in that show that we did a lot of research around was this idea that when you look at the way that trans people, the few instances of trans people being portrayed in like TV and film, even before trans people became the scapegoat for mass shootings and this kind of thing, the way that trans people were portrayed as like murderers and criminal, like, looking back at like silence of the lambs and stuff like that, where there's like this whole history of trans folks being portrayed as violent, being portrayed as like unstable. when it's like, at the same time, we are disproportionately, and particularly trans women

and particularly trans women of color, are disproportionately be victims of this kind of violence. And it is sort of like, again, pulling back, it is frustrating to have to keep having this conversation and have to keep being like, no, we are not the ones that are doing this. When it's like also at the same time, our community is being targeted in this way

where like people are dying. People are like being murdered. People are like anti-trans hate crimes. Like those anti-trans hate crimes are happening. People are dying because they're trans. And at the same time, like the way that trans people are oftentimes like portrayed by these like right-wing groups, but also in a lot of like mainstream entertainment, it makes it appear as if we're the ones that are doing this violence. It's so true. And I wish I could say that we have moved that we have moved.

Because, like, you go back and watch movies, like, pet detective and not to, like, spoil the movie, but... I, okay, that one's funny, because I've never actually seen that movie, but I feel like every, like, trans mask person at some point is, like, I look, like, Ace Ventura and Pet Debt. And it's, like, at the same time, that movie is so transomboving. And it's funny, because we have not, like, we, it's... I wish I could say that we had moved beyond that, that, like, portrayal from, like, 1992 or whatever. But you're right, we really have it when you look at the way that, and you're right, we really have it when you look at the way that, And I guess it's why it's so important that work like your work with After Lives, you know, it's very important that we have depictions of trans folks in ways that are thoughtful and loving and real.

And our, yeah, we need the work that you all are doing. Thank you. Yeah, I get shapeless plug, go listen to Afterlimes. Works very hard on that show. But on the tangent, just about France people in. and how were portrayed both, like, in news media and entertainment media. I think there was, there was an interview with Jing Sponsoon recently where she was talking about, like, she, like, play, she played, like, a villain in, like, Doctor Who recently.

And she was talking about, like, being, as an actress, like, getting to play roles where she is, like, a villain as a trans person and how, like, it's almost kind of liberating because it's, like, she's able to, like, kind of regain control of that narrative. Like, it was sort of, she was talking about the fact that it's, like we're all like villainy so much all of this stuff is put on us and it's like almost kind of fun to be able to like twist that around and get to play you know into like being like an evil character that is nothing to do with being friends anyways tanz it has nothing really to do with this

but yeah i think there is something to be said about the fact that it's like the stuff that we consume shapes the way that we think about people and that means you know that means news media that means entertainment media that means these that means twitter you know yeah that means social media and that is why these sort of things are dangerous. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged.

One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined.

So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast's Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows, without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series

because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night bases on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball, like, After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things.

I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventures, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world fighting for our lives.

All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's get right back into it. We really can't talk about the mechanics of how trans people get falsely linked to violence without talking about the media apparatus that facilitates it. One of the biggest parts of the story is that the way that they have really built an effective media apparatus where these claims might start in more fringe pockets of the internet like 4chan or some random extremists Twitter page, but they then pretty quickly get boosted by right-wing politicians, media figures, and even bleed into mainstream media where they just become part of people's conscious. Like they just like become as part of how people understand trans folks. And then it's all made worse by the fact that social media platforms have really,

mostly all of them, loosened whatever rules they did have that prevent people from, really being ugly and horrible to trans and queer people, right? Like earlier this year, Facebook loosened rules around hate speech and abuse. LinkedIn recently changed their policies. It's a little bit of a complicated thing, but it does seem that they are making it easier for folks to misgender and dead name people on LinkedIn of all places. No, yeah, that's that, like with that, I was like, are you kidding me? Like, LinkedIn?

Like, what? It's not. First of all, the people who use LinkedIn, like, it's an actual social media platform. like that to me those are the people we should be concerned about like that's a sign that something is something's going on um but like like I don't know I was like I I check LinkedIn when I absolutely have to like I was like this is literally just how I show what my job is I don't like this has nothing to do with I don't know come on LinkedIn I can do better do better. LinkedIn is like, yeah, I don't, I, I want to do, I could talk all day. I have a lot to say about LinkedIn.

I'm a LinkedIn hater. Same. I will, you know. So all of this becomes a bigger problem when you look at how algorithms amplify harmful content. And platforms like Facebook and X have really just scrapped fact checking. There's not really meaningful fact checking happening on these platforms anymore where people could push back and say, hey, this person is not a trans terror suspect or whatever. And like I was saying, you know,

all of this just becomes another system that dehumanizes trans people, justifies violence against trans people who are already targets of violence as we talked about, you know, continues to dehumanize trans people. And I think it kind of goes to what we were saying earlier. Like, to me, the whole thing really shows just how eager people are to use anything, even if it is outright lies to paint trans people. people as mentally ill or violent. And it's like they're trying to build a world where trans people never just get to exist

as their selves, whether that is someone who is depressed or sad or happy or a meaty villain or whatever. Like you never get to just be who you are. Instead, they're being like constantly held responsible for not just what other trans people do, but for things that never even actually happened in the first place. This kind of reminds me. I was talking with a friend recently about, like, because again, like, I, I'm looking up for like, I, I have a pretty solid, like,

trans community where I am and, like, queer community. And I was talking with a friend recently about how we were, like, it's always annoying when, like, we have, like, stupid, like, interpersonal beef with people that also just happen to be, like, trans or queer or whatever. And being, like, yeah, like, they suck. They did all of this stuff. I don't like them. But also, like, at the end of the day, we're all being attacked.

right now. So, like, I hope that they, you know, like, I don't want them to get hate crimes. I don't want them to get, like, I hope that none of this awful stuff happens. Like, it's like, oh, great, I have to defend the worst person I know because we're all being attacked right now. And it's like, I should be able to just be a hater in peace. That is the biggest crime here. But, no, but yeah, it really is like, trades people are such a, like, small portion of the population, even if we weren't. Who cares? Like, even if we weren't, because that's something people always, like, emphasizes.

Like, oh, it's such a small percentage of the population. But it's like, yeah, we're just people. Like, it doesn't affect how, like, how someone else is presenting, how somebody else is identifying how they're living their life has nothing to do with you. And, like, we're at this point with politics where it's like, this has, like, so much of the noise is just this kind of stuff because it takes away from, like, the actual.

issues in it. Again, like, people have died. Like, there are two children that are dead right now. There's gun violence in this country has become so normalized that, like, I heard school shooting at the top of this kind of when this story was breaking and, like, barely batten an eye over it. It's just become that normalized. That should be the thing that we're talking about, but we're not. We're getting roped into these, like, arbitrary conversations that have nothing to do with, like, the larger issue here. Whether this person was trans or not, not the fact that they identified as trans at one point. Clearly there was other stuff going on.

Like there's so many other things that should be the focus of the story. And unfortunately, that's not what it's going to be. Well, actually, no, apparently it's going to be. I saw something that like, because like Fox News is now like, oh, the left is mocking people for saying that we should pray for blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was like, no, the mayor of Minneapolis just said, like, don't say thoughts and prayers. They were literally like praying.

This is insane. Like, I don't know. Yeah. We are in some dark times, but Joey, I really appreciate you being a light in these dark times. With all of your thoughtful work, where can folks follow you, listen to what you've got going on, tell us all the things. Yeah. So if you want to listen to other things that I've worked on, you should definitely check out After Lives. Like I mentioned, our first season was about Lely and Blanco.

who is a transgender woman who passed away at Rikers Prison. We go into a lot of the systems that led to her death because she really should not have died. There are so many things went wrong that should not have happened. And then the second season, we took a little bit of a different route. It was about Marshby Johnson, whose 80th birthday was recently. We definitely recommend checking that out

if you're interested in queer history or just kind of like, I will say, tangent as a queer person as a trans person I think like and as somebody who's also like just kind of like a history nerd I find it really comforting to look back at these like stories of these like trans trailblazers like Marsh B Johnson and the like looking at stonewall looking at what actually happened looking at like how people rallied around people in the AIDS crisis I think that gives me a lot of hope to be like we're going to make it through this at the end of the day like our community is stronger

Ben, like, the people trying to take us down are. We're going to make it through it. But, yeah, check out After Lives. You can also hear me occasionally on Stuff Mom Never Told You. I did an episode back in June about being non-binary and some of, like, misconceptions around that if you want to listen. And, yeah, if you want to follow me online, you can find me. at Pat not Pratt. That's P-A-T-N-O-T-R-A-T-T.

That's my handle on Instagram and Twitter. I barely use Twitter anymore. I think it is also my Blue Sky, but I honestly don't even think I have the app downloaded anymore for Blue Sky. But yeah, yeah, find me online. Woo! Follow Joey on all the places.

Thank you so much for listening. I will see you on the internet. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangodi. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

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