There Are No Girls on the Internet - Elon Musk is buying Twitter. Here’s what it means for marginalized folks on

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

In this EMERGENCY EPISODE, Bridget sits down with producer Michael to discuss the news that Twitter’s board accepted billionaire Elon Musk’s 44 billion dollar bid to buy the social media platform and what it means for traditionally marginalized users.    Learn more about UltraViolet’s quest to build a feminist internet: http://feministnet.com/   Subscribe to our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Want to support the show? (thank you!) Buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Just want to say god dag / Բարեւ Ձեզ / hello?  We'd love to hear from you! [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I know whether it's on Twitter, someplace else. I know that our voices will endure because our voices can't be silenced. They're too powerful. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We were all ready to go live as an episode today, but we had a little breaking news on Monday that I really wanted to talk to you all about. So this is going to be a little bit of a different episode. After much back and forth, Twitter accepted billionaire Tesla and SpaceX founder Elon Musk's $44 billion bid to buy and take over Twitter, subject to a shareholder vote following Twitter's board's approval.

And as somebody who makes a podcast about the internet and social media and technology works to make social media platforms safer specifically for marginalized people. And as also just someone who uses Twitter, I have a lot of thoughts and feelings. First, you should know that Twitter is kind of a mess for people who are not straight white cis men. Ultraviolet, the Gender Justice Organization where I work with a great team of campaigners to try to build a more feminist internet, found that a third of women under the age of 35

and 70% of LGBTQ adults report being harassed online, and 61% of women, compared with 48% of men, characterize online harassment as a major problem. And Amnesty International found that black women were 85% and women of color in general were 34% more likely than white women to be targeted for online abuse. So, yeah, it's a real problem.

And I gotta say, I do not have a ton of confidence in Elon Musk's ability, intention, or frankly, desire to correct any of this based on his track record. So let's take a look at that track record. Tesla has faced lawsuits from current and former staff for sexual harassment and racism. Women workers at Tesla faced nightmarish conditions of rampant sexual harassment, according to lawsuits.

And a federal jury in San Francisco ordered Tesla to pay Owen Diaz, a black former employee, $136.9 million because of the racial harassment that he faced there. The state of California is currently suing Tesla for allegedly trying to silence thousands of black workers who complained about dealing with racism

while working at Tesla. One especially heartbreaking account from a number of black employees reports that they were moved to the back of the plant whenever Musk would visit the facility. So what does all this mean for women, people of color, and LGBTQ folks on Twitter? I sat down with my producer Michael to discuss. How you feel about this Twitter situation? What were your initial thoughts about Elon Musk buying Twitter? So I have to say, I kind of got the whole Elon Musk buying Twitter thing wrong. When I first started hearing reports that he was thinking about buying Twitter, I thought for sure

Elon Musk just really wanted that to be something that was in a couple of rounds of news cycles. I did not think he was actually going to buy Twitter. I was so convinced that this was just going to be something he talked a big game about, just like other big things that he's talked about, like donating money to the UN to end world hunger, which he never did, even though he promised that he would. And I was wrong. You know, I really thought this was just going to be talk from a billionaire to show that he could buy it if you wanted to. And I was incorrect. What was going on in your life when you first got on Twitter? I know that you are pretty prolific on there. You've been on it for a while.

What was that early experience like? Oh, the early days of Twitter was such a different world. It was really fun. I don't think we knew what it was. I, there's a kind of phenomenon on Twitter where black folks find each other and connect over jokes and communal laughter and shared experiences. I think there were just a lot of opportunities for joy in the early days of Twitter that I don't think I've really seen a lot of since those early days. Like the day that those two llamas got loose, Llamas on the loose, where everyone was tracking those llamas and then, you know, the days of the dress. My favorite ever day on Twitter is the day that a, I think it was Yahoo News, tweeted about Trump wanting to have a bigger Navy,

but they accidentally had a typo and they used the N-word N-word Navy. And it was a great day for jokes on Twitter. It was, it was just really fun and it was, it felt low stakes. I think it felt a lot lower stakes that it's felt in the last three or four or five years for sure. Yeah. But you're still on there. So what role would you say Twitter plays in your life now? Oh, I am on Twitter now purely because I sort of have to be, I think. It's not something that I really enjoy being on. but I feel that at this point in my career, I have to be there to find, it is a quick way to find out what's happening in the news

and what's happening in the world around you, what's happening with elected officials and world leaders. I feel like it's sort of, I'm there kind of by necessity, not for the same kind of like recreation or a reverence or community building that once was so, such a big part of the experience of being there. You know, my time there is much more, I tweet when I got a tweet,

I put it out there. If anybody has anything to say about it, I probably am not going to see the replies. I'm not hanging out in Twitter trying to have conversation and engage because frankly, it's just not that pleasant of a place to do that. It just doesn't feel like a fun place

to spend time in that way. And everything, even low stakes, things on Twitter feel very high stakes. One thing I find myself doing is intentionally engaging in like very low stakes Twitter conversations specifically to try to like recapture some of that old feeling of what it felt like when you could actually engage with people on Twitter about things that you maybe didn't agree with. Somebody tweeted something recently that was, what's your cancelable coffee opinion? And I was like, oh, people who drink black coffee don't actually like the taste of black coffee. They're just trying to look grown up. They're just pretending to like

the taste of black coffee. And it was actually very fun to have people kind of get gently spicy with me about not agreeing with my strongly held, but very low stakes opinion. And it's being able to engage in that way. We don't really get a lot of opportunities on Twitter, it feels like, to have those kinds of low stakes back and forth with people. But that used to be the norm. Yeah. It can feel very high stakes. And it's nice that you got out of it fairly unscathed with your clearly incorrect opinion about black coffee. Okay. I know you drink your coffee black. I know that you don't actually really like it. I've seen you put cream in it sometimes. Sometimes it's bad coffee. We don't have to get this is it. You know what? You're canceled. Yeah, all right, well, just like everybody else who's canceled, I'm going to go on talking and asking some more questions.

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And we're back. One of the absolute best things about Twitter will always be Black Twitter. It's one of my favorite ways that we show up online. And with Elon Musk taking over, I'm a little worried. In a piece for the L.A. Times, Erica D. Smith spoke to Dr. Meredith Clark, who studies Black cultural movements on social media like Black Twitter. Dr. Clark said, I don't think you're going to see the same sort of replication of a Twitter-like climate or black Twitter on another platform.

I don't think you'll ever get that lightning in a bottle back, but I do think that you'll see black people doing what we've always done. And that is bend communication and other technologies to our needs and our will and find ways to thrive in those various areas of the Internet. So what is black Twitter? Okay, I'm so glad to ask. So this was like what, it's still, it's still, I don't want to make it seem like a thing of yesterday because it's still very much a part of the experience on Twitter. But Black Twitter was this beautiful, collaborative vibe on Twitter where black folks really found each other and connected over just the shared experience of being Black folks.

And you know, blackness is so rich. It's so multifaceted. Being black is not a monolith. But those differences really allowed us to connect on Twitter in this completely interesting, exciting new way. And honestly, I think it's not surprising that there wasn't like black Facebook necessarily or black Instagram. Certainly there are lots of black users doing amazing stuff and building amazing communities on those platforms. I don't want to suggest that that's not happening. But Twitter is such an instantaneous kind of platform that you can be engaging in real time in this way that feels sort of collective. And it just felt like, you know, the call and response ethos that I feel like is so part and parcel to our experiences. And so, yeah,

it just was, it just was this like very interesting, exciting, collaborative network of black folks bonding over just the experience of blackness. And so I think a lot of times when we talk about what the black experience is, we're talking about trauma and hard stuff, and that's definitely part of it. But Black Twitter is also about connecting over jokes, over creativity, over, yeah, just the shared joy of bathing in our identities, bathing in our blackness over Twitter. So how do you think that might be able to? changed now that Elon Musk has bought Twitter, and why do you think that?

I am concerned. I will say this. I've had a lot of feelings over the last, I don't know, six hours or so since the announcement happened. If I sound exhausted, it's because of that announcement. I know that Elon Musk does not have a great track. record when it comes to amplifying, protecting, supporting, championing, marginalized voices. I'm an optimist when it comes to technology and to platforms through and through. I would not make this podcast if I was not an optimist when it came to technology. But I can't ignore the facts that speak for themselves. I believe that Elon Musk oversaw an environment at Tesla that was sexist.

that was racist. This is not me saying this. Courts have agreed, right? And so I've heard reports where black Tesla employees talked about how when Elon Musk would personally come to Tesla, they knew that they had to physically hide, physically get to the back because he was so disgusted to see black faces in his factories. And so all of that tells me that this is someone that maybe cannot be trusted to have the kind of intentionality that would be necessary to foster marginalized voices on the platform. And already Twitter, we know, has a lot of work to do in terms of championing those voices. And I think it's so sad because as I explained before, we are the lightblood of what makes social media great. Like, like, we are black

creativity, black labor, black talent, black hustle, black grit. What would any social media platform be like without us? And not just black folks, black folks, trans folks, queer folks, all of us. What would a social media look like without us? It would be nothing. We fuel it. I want to make sure that the people who run these platforms actually see that and are intentional about making sure that that is fostered because it's real. It's, we have a real, we have really materially benefited these platforms. And I just feel like the idea of being asked to show up on a platform owned and operated by someone who has proven himself to not have a great track record when it comes to things

like race and gender, I feel like it's difficult to imagine me showing up with the kind of joy and creativity and spark that we once had. And that's not to say that, you know, Twitter has had its problems, but I just have a real issue with someone like Elon Musk buying Twitter almost as a lark. And I also want to say that I believe really, really deeply in the power of people who are traditionally marginalized. Like, black folks, we are so skilled. We are so skilled, at being given the worst and making something out of it, making lemonade out of lemons, right? And so when you think about the spaces

that we have really had to fight to carve out for ourselves on platforms like Twitter, that is because of black creativity and black hustle and black grit and needing to carve out these spaces. And so, you know, I don't know. All of that is to say, I don't think that one person, Elon Musk, is stronger than all of our creativity and voices combined.

And that spirit that we have to carve out our spaces, which we've always done. We did it before and we'll always keep doing it. So, I mean, I don't know. I really, I'm not, I'm concerned. I'm very concerned about how this will bode for traditionally marginalized people who are already marginalized on Twitter. But I also know that I believe in us. I truly believe in the power of our spirit and ingenuity to always be there, carving out those spaces and really taking the space that we need to show up in the way that we want.

I guess it speaks to the resilience of all humanity, but have fought to take space and make space when it's not given. And it's impressive and powerful. but it's also got to be so frustrating and tiring. And, you know, why does it have to be that way? Like, why does it have to be such a bite? And you wrote a really thoughtful thread earlier today about the likely consequences of a new Twitter without community standards.

And that would be a more dangerous and hostile place for marginalized people, especially women of color, who are often targets of coordinated attacks designed to silence them. And in the comments, I saw a bunch of trolls saying things like, oh, if you don't like free speech, just say so. And it was such a reductionist comment. But so I just wanted to ask you, like, you know,

how do community standards protect free speech? So I think the entire conversation about free speech, we are having the wrong conversation, right? Like, when we talk about free speech, we're talking about whether governments can suppress people's speech. And we do have a real free speech problem in this country, full stop. But I think that the way that we have allowed the idea of free speech to be debated when we talk about Twitter moderation, I think is really doing it a disservice. However, if we're going to talk about free speech on platforms like Twitter, I think that when we talk about things like content moderation, we should also be clear that we're talking about all.

of the traditionally marginalized folks who have been pushed out of social media because of black content moderation standards or poorly applied content moderation standards or not transparent content moderation standards. It's not often white conservative men who are being pushed out of these spaces. It is people who are traditionally marginalized, right? It's black women, it's sex workers, it's activists. Those are the people who are being pushed out of these places when content moderation is badly applied, is misapplied, is applied without transparency. And so I really want to change the conversation. When we talk about free speech on platforms, I want to make sure that we're also including all of these marginalized people who

we have just decided don't deserve free speech on platforms. And that they're not going, their stories are not going to be part of what we talk about when we talk about free speech. And so I think that's one of the traps of it when we, allow this idea of, quote, free speech to be the thing that animates our conversations about social media platforms. I just want to change the conversation entirely. And by the way, Elon Musk talks about how he's this free speech absolutist bullshit. Tell that to the employees of Tesla that he has fired for talking critically about Tesla. Tell that to the employees that he's cracked down on for talking about things like unionization. This idea that he is some big champion

of free speech, a free speech absolutist, that's a farce. He would love it if that was the dominant thing that people talked about about him, because it creates this false binary where he is on one side and he is a champion of free speech and everybody else is on the other side and they are enemies of free speech. And that is not even just an oversimplification. It's just not true. But it is such a self-serving framing that I can understand that that's why that's the framing that he always leans back on and his supporters always lean back on. But just because it's convenient, doesn't make it accurate and it is inaccurate. Yeah, I know you do a lot of work in platform accountability, often focusing on Twitter in particular. What does this do change in ownership

mean for that work? TBD. You know, if I were working at Twitter, I would say when we announced this change, people, our user base, are going to have questions. I would have been ready with some answers to those questions of what this would look like, what this means for you as a user. The fact that they, the only information that we got was these like very vague statements from Musk saying like, oh, I'm going to have free speech for Twitter unless it's spam. Well, who decides what's spam and what's not? How will that be moderated? Like the way, the way that it only leans on vagaries and no specifics, I think it tells you all you need to know about the way that the people in power at Twitter feel about us, their users. I don't feel like they, they feel

like they owe us any kind of answers or accountability or transparency. And I want to be very clear, we're talking about a platform where world leaders put out statements, where elected officials put out statements. When I needed to figure out where to go to get a COVID test, I checked my local DC mayor's Twitter account to get that information. We need to acknowledge the ways that Twitter really does function as a kind of public utility. And given that, they can't be so callous with these kinds of changes without being a little bit accountable to us, the people who use them. And I think it's very clear that they don't feel they need to be accountable to us. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, that's like Elon Musk's whole thing. He's not accountable to anyone. He just does his own thing because he's rich and powerful enough to do that. And it seems like so many of his fans just love that about it. As much as I am worried about the changes that are to come for marginalized people on Twitter, I also just, like, want to step back and say, isn't it kind of messed up that a billionaire can spend $44 billion to buy one of our largest communication platforms just on a lark, just for fun?

Like, isn't that a problem? Like, I really feel that illustrates that something is sort of deeply wrong when that can happen and that we don't even know, you know, you know, what the impact will be. And I also think, like, the way that so many people, particularly marginalized people, have had to adapt to use things like Twitter, to build community, to build movements. Like, think about all the movements that marginalized people have built using Twitter in the last 10 years. Black Lives Matter was born from platforms like Twitter.

Me Too was born from platforms like Twitter, right? the concept of Black Girl Magic, born on platforms like Twitter, I think that we really have to see the way that one person being in charge of this, kind of maybe without even really thinking it through, can really have a deep and lasting impact on our ability to create change and community going forward. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad, supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program.

I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and your 20s, they can feel like a lot.

On the psychology of your 20s podcast, we unpack the anxiety, the overthinking, the heartbreak, the identity crisis, all of it that comes with being in your 20s. Because if you've ever thought, is anybody else feeling this way, they definitely are. I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. Oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to like be. out of that phase out of my skin and I just like really regret not living in the present more.

Each week we break down the science behind what you're going through and give you real tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out. They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I know firsthand that navigating our connected digital lives also comes with navigating all kinds of complicated issues. Like, for instance, what do you do

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Let's get right back into it. So what sort of things are you going to be looking out for as this transition takes place? You know, it is like indicators of which way it's going to go. Well, the biggest thing that people are talking about right now is whether or not Trump will be reinstated. I want to make this really clear. Just today, Trump said that even if Elon Musk invited him back to Twitter, he would not come back. I want to say that loud and clear that he said that on Monday, April 25th, 2022. So if he ever does come back, you just remember that.

He said that he, even if he was allowed to come back, he would never come back. Well, so we don't have to worry about it because, I mean, it's not like he would ever lie. It's not like he lies or anything. Yeah. So I think like I'm really looking out for that because I think as people really saw what like when when Trump was de-platform from Twitter, it really took a lot of his power away. And we saw the ways that Twitter as a platform was so useful to his rise, so useful to him being able to spread what we know were violent conspiracy theories and lies and chip away. at trust in our democratic process. And so if Elon Musk welcomes Trump back,

I think it's entirely possible that that will help Trump win re-election. And so it's like things like this. It's like we really need to think about what could be the consequences of this. You know, I also have, you know, already, I think the ADL put out a report to just today where they were talking about how extremists and people who have been depleted,

platformed from Twitter for being too extreme or for spreading conspiracy theories or for spreading violent rhetoric, they're ecstatic. They're so happy. They're like, oh, maybe I'll be able to come back. They're going to reinstate me. But I think that that is really, I mean, it sounds really scary, but I'm so interested to see how it shakes out because, as we know, platforms like this, whenever extremists and bad actors are like, oh, we're going to go start our own social media platform at Trump's social or at Gab or whatever, it never really takes off because you can't have a platform that's just full of trolls and bad actors, right? Trolls need somebody to troll. It's not fun for them unless there's people who don't want to be bothered that they can bother. That's like a big part of it.

And so if all of these people come flooding back to Twitter and people who don't want to be bothered stop showing up there as much, I'm really curious to see what that will do to Twitter because, you know, bad actors need someone to bother and harass in order for it to be sustainable for them. So are you hopeful? I will always be hopeful about, you know,

I believe in the power of the internet, the power of social media, and the power of people who want to be there to be forces of good to make those spaces good. Am I hopeful? Yeah, I believe in us. I believe that black folks, women, queer folks, we will always find a way to make something out of nothing. We will always find a way to make a way out of no way. And so I am hopeful in that I know that this is, whether it's on Twitter,

someplace else, wherever, I know that our voices will endure because our voices can't be silenced. They're too powerful. One billionaire South African cannot drown out our voices, even though he probably wishes that he could. Him and his billions of dollars will never be stronger than us and our voices. And I'm hopeful in that. I believe in that. Okay, so maybe you listen to that whole thing and you're thinking, who cares what happens on Twitter?

Well, what happens on Twitter is not just a tech issue. Cantering things like harassment and disinformation on Twitter is a racial and gender justice issue, but it's also a democracy issue. Because we know that if we're going to have a functioning democracy, a democracy where we can make meaningful progress on some of the biggest issues facing us, like health care, voting rights, abortion rights, and climate justice,

we need to have a functioning digital media landscape where everyone can fully participate. Without that, there's just no hope. And we cannot do this while our digital platforms are cesspools of disinformation based in sexism, racism, misogyny, and hate. So we already know that disinformation and online harassment disproportionately target and impact people

from underrepresented backgrounds. But what does this really look like? Well, it looks like existing fractures and tensions in our communities being exploited. It looks like lies about our bodies being codified into dangerous laws. It looks like racist, sexist lies about women in politics. And having a digital media ecosystem ready made to amplify and lend credibility to those lies. Lies that we know undermine all women of color.

And let's keep it real. Black women are overwhelmingly targeted for disinformation and online harassment campaigns. And the research makes it very clear that this persistent threat has a silencing effect on all of us. It pushes us even further into the margins. It keeps us from doing things like running for office, or even just expressing our opinions online. It undermines public trust at our leadership. Now, the goal of this kind of thing is to get us to check out of our democracy

and to just shut up. And we cannot allow this because increasing civic participation is a crucial step to advancing all of our issues and restoring a functioning democracy. And we cannot have that if we don't have digital media platforms and landscapes where all of us, including those of us who are traditionally marginalized, can show up safely. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi?

You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast, is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us, Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall, as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests.

Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a married man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King. Recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise,

the drama, the alliances, and the T, everybody's talking about. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human.