There Are No Girls on the Internet - Evan Rachel Wood’s abuse by Marylin Manson is a tech issue - STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

Episode Date: June 10, 2022

Evan Rachel Wood’s new documentary Phoenix Rising paints a horrifying picture of abuse she experienced by Brian Warner, also known as Marylin Manson.  Bridget joins Sam and Anney at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You to talk through why it’s also a tech accountability issue. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Actor and activist Evan Rachel Wood is among the at least 16 women who have come forward to make allegations of abuse against musician Brian Warner, who you probably know better by his stage name, Marilyn Manson. Now, the allegations are truly horrific. and Evan Rachel Wood says that Warner sexually assaulted her during a taping for the music video for his song Heart Shape Glass. Now, I joined my friends Sam and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told

You to talk through why this is actually a technology and platform accountability issue. Hey, this is Annie. And Samantha. And welcome to Stephom Never Told You, a production of IHeart Radio. And today we are thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing, fantastic Bridget Todd. Hi, Bridget. Thanks for joining us. Oh, I'm so glad to be here.

Thank you for having me. Always such a pleasure to be joining you ladies. Yes, and happy belated birthday. Yes. Oh, my God, thank you. Yeah, I had a birthday. I almost kind of forgot because it happened at a weird time, but thank you. Well, you were in the middle of your travels, right?

Yeah, I was in Austin, Texas for South by Southwest. Oh, yeah. It's not a bad place to spend your birthday, but it kind of happened very quickly and I kind of forgot about it. I was getting on the plane to go back home, and the person who checked my ID was like, oh, happy belated birthday. And I said, oh, that's right. I did have a birthday. Thank you.

Yeah, I think someone recently asked me how old I was and I, like, paused to think about it. Get back to you on that. But yeah, how was your South by Southwest experience? It was good. It was interesting. You know, it was the first time they had done it since COVID. It was cool. I have to shout out the fact that probably every other panel or like talk, like speech or talk that I saw was a trans person or a non-binary person really speaking out against some of the like horrific legislation we've seen in Texas.

And there were lots of women speaking out about like the horrible abortion legislation in Texas. So even though it was a little bit strange to be in Texas, I was, I left so empowered and engaged and like, leaned into the fight to, you know, really create change. And so I have to really shout out a lot of, you know, abortion advocates and trans advocates that I'm sure being in Texas was like tough for them. But I really have to shout out how incredible it was for them to make space to open up conversations about legislation that is harming their community. So it was good.

Yeah. I love that because I know, like, it's kind of so, difficult to be in an area where it's so toxic to you as a person, as a human being going through your life and then feeling like, yeah, you know what? I can't leave because I have to fight this. There's just that double whammy. But that is amazing to hear that such an event, which is an international event, was able to push forward that conversation. Absolutely. I really think like shout out to all of those people who, I don't even say, I might even like, I think they took the space for themselves. And I think that was the right thing to do.

do. Yeah, awesome. That's amazing. And we were discussing before this one, this is a topic that is so important that you brought to us today. It's a bit of a downer, but it's incredibly important. And I think like we're going to have a lot of, there's a lot of nuance with this that I appreciate that you brought to it. So what did you bring for us to discuss today, Bridget? Yeah, as you said, it's a little bit of a rough topic. So, you know, we're going to be talking about sexual assault. and, you know, domestic violence and abuse, so just know that going forward. So, you know, my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, is really all about the ways that issues that maybe don't seem like tech issues, issues that impact women and other traditionally marginalized people. You know, they might not be seen as tech issues, but they're very much tech issues.

And today's topic, I think, is a really great example of what I mean. So today I want to talk about the platform YouTube and their failure to remove a video of actor and activist Evan Rachel Wood being sexually assaulted. So it is really important to me, you know, as someone who makes a tech podcast and cares about technology and works in technology to talk about this and especially frame it not as kind of a, quote, celebrity story, which I've seen it really framed as, or even worse, as a quote, he said, she said, which is obviously not correct. Because that kind of framing, I think, really lets tech companies that are involved off the hook. I'm sure these tech companies like YouTube would love it if this story was not framed as a tech accountability story and was just to sort of, you know, celebrity story. But unfortunately for them, that's, I'm not framing it that way. I am framing it as a tech accountability story because that's what I believe that it is.

That's amazing because we literally were just talking about an episode which came out with which TikTok, I talked about the fact that they're allowing these really bad, like really misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates, essentially, and allowing it and saying it's not violating anything. It's just a joke. And it's kind of like, wait, where is the accountability? know you are allowing this rhetoric that people are just latching onto, which is so toxic and harmful and dangerous for women in general. So we need to have a conversation about why you are accountable for these things.

But I digress. Because let's hear about exactly what you're talking about, especially with Evan Rachel Wood. I know a little bit about it, but if you can just kind of go into that. Absolutely. So here's what's happening with Evan Rachel Wood. Basically, Wood has spent a few years now advocating for survivors of sexual violence and abuse. And when she's done this, she's often referenced her own, you know, heretofore unnamed abuser. But on February 1st, 2021, Wood publicly named her abuser in a message on Instagram.

She wrote, the name of my abuser is Brian Warner, also known to the world as Marilyn Manson. He started grooming me as a teenager and horrifically abused me for years. I am here to expose this dangerous man and call out the many industries that have enabled. him before he ruins any more lives. And so a quick note for people who are listening, you will probably be more familiar with Brian Warner as his stage name as a musician Marilyn Manson. But I am not going to call him Marilyn Manson in this episode. And I have basically stopped calling him Marilyn Manson in general because I think it adds to this mythology that Brian Warner has created around himself. And I believe that he has exploited that mythology

to continue to abuse women. I'll talk a little bit more about what I mean later in the episode. but when I say Warner, Brian Warner, I'm referring to the musician whose stage name is Marilyn Manson, whose actual name is Brian Warner. And Evan Rachel Wood is not alone. Several women, including women who are not famous and don't have a public profile like she does, have made similar claims against Warner. So far, 16 women have accused Warner of sexual abuse and four have sued him for sexual assault. So, you know, I said earlier that people were mistakenly framing it as a he said, she said.

So even though that framing is not correct, even if that is how you were framing it, it wouldn't really be a he said, she said, she said, she said, she said, she said, she said, you know, 16 times. Yep. At the very least. Exactly. I mean, like, who even knows, you know, this is what we know about.

That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah. And I remember when this came out and when it first came out, this is kind of news. But it's recently I saw it come up again that, Warner is kind of pursuing a legal battle of his own against her. So can you go into more like what is going on right now? Right. So this, you know, we were talking about this when Evan Rachel Wood first named Warner as

her abuser back in 2021. But the reason why we're talking about it right now is because Evan Rachel would just released a new documentary, which you can watch on HBO Max, a two-part documentary called Phoenix Rising, that really chronicles her story. As you might imagine, it is a difficult watch. I watched the first part of it, and I had to take a break from the second part, which was watching last night,

because it's a little, I mean, as you might imagine, it's not the easiest watch. So just if you're planning on watching it, just know that. So the movie, it's interesting in that it starts ostensibly as a kind of Aaron Brockovich-style story chronicling Wood's successful campaign to pass the Phoenix Act, which is an legislation that extends the statute of limitations on domestic violence in California.

But during filming, when Wood published, names Warner as her own abuser, the film begins to follow that aftermath. And so the documentary really chronicles her upbringing, her work to become a, you know, survivor advocate and a domestic abuse advocate, you know, trying to pass this legislation and then kind of pivots when we see her publicly name Warner as this person who had abused her that she had been referencing as her abuser for so long in that work. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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That's 844-8-4-4-4-4. I heart. What's up fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about Defying the Odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he

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It's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of Survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you.

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on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I know when we were originally seeing all of this come out, because I remember seeing her testify before the name was coming out in front of the Senate trying to talk about the statute of limitations

and going into this whole conversation and how quickly after the fact she showed herself as the survivor advocate and she named him, how many people came behind her like, oh my God, this is why this is familiar, as well as in the fact when she describes some of the events that happened to her,

many women already came out because they had gone through some similar things, including how they met. So can you kind of talk about their relationship, specifically, Warner & Woods? I really like how you have framed that because I think that in her situation, so many other women spoke up and said, this was exactly what happened with me. He did this to me. You know, her, and I also think just her situation is really familiar to me. And I think anybody who has dealt with domestic violence, or sexual abuse by an intimate partner, the way that he operated in the beginning might be kind of familiar. So Wooden Warner met at a party at Chateau-Mormant when she was 18 and he was 37. They maintained a platonic friendship where Warner would talk to her about things like her favorite

books and her favorite artists. Then the two started to date. Now, she describes this as a kind of grooming and love-bombing situation where, you know, early on he was referring to her as his soulmate and really was making her feel like he was the only one who really got her, really loved her. Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate her from her friends and family, and that was the beginning stages of their early romantic relationship. And so at this point, you know, you might be thinking, you know, why would someone like Evan Rachel would get involved romantically with someone like Warner who was known for these shocking kind of, of gross antics on stage.

And that kind of really goes back to why I'm not going to call him, quote, Marilyn Manson. And I think that big part of that is because Warner's public persona as Marilyn Manson really helped him get away with gross abusive behavior in public. So if you were a young person like me in the 90s, you might remember that after the Columbine school shooting in 1999, Warner was legitimately unfairly blamed for the deaths of 15 young people after it was misreported that the Columbine shooters were big fans of his music and that his music motivated them in the shooting. At this time, politicians were lobbying to have his performances band,

citing these really over-the-top exaggerated, outlandish, untrue claims. Things like at his shows, that he would have his security guards spike the drinking water at the shows and give it to young kids in the audience, or that he was engaging in bestiality on stage or, like, ripping apart animals. Warner's legal team actually sent the American Family Association a cease and desist for saying that he encouraged kids to engage in violent sexual acts from the stage in the audience. And so none of that was true. And Warner countered these legit, unearned unfair responses to the threat that his music poses to kids by doing these sort of very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was able to portray himself indirect opposition to this outlandish onstage persona that these. politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing.

And so as he was being demonized by these people and sort of them making up these outlandish exaggerations and claims about him, he was able to really present himself as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable person. And one interview that really sticks out to me, if anyone has seen the documentary Michael Morris Bowling for Columbine, there's a sit-down segment with Marilynne where he says things like, oh, the young people who perpetrated the Columbine shooting, what have been the moment? been safer had they purchased my CDs, you know, rather than buying guns. And so he can't, I remember specifically, he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy. And it really

created this, I don't know, this sort of portrayal of him as someone who was being unfairly maligned. And thus, some of his other behavior was really able to go unscrutinized because it was so clear he was being unfairly demonized for this behavior that he never actually engaged in. Like, he wasn't actually spiking the drinking water at his shows and having sex with animals on stage. Right. And I know we're going to get into this more later because I have a lot of thoughts about all of this.

And as I said, you do such a great job of, like, there are a lot of nuances to this conversation. But I remember I listened to Marilyn Manson when I was really young. And I had a friend who was, her parents were really conservative. And they no jokes showed up at my mom. house and yelled at my mom for letting their daughter listen to it. And it became such a point of, it like it didn't have to become this point, but it became such a point of like, oh, you, you conservatives don't get it. You're trying to like hold me down and you don't understand. And like, I feel so outcast and you'll never get it. And it, it, it, their kind of outrage made it

into a bigger thing than it would have been. If they had never said anything. Oh my gosh. I had the same exact experience, right? So I was a kid, I was in junior high, I had a heyday, I'll say. And, you know, I was like an alt-y. I wouldn't say I was like a goth kid, but I was definitely very alt-ty. And I totally had the same experience.

I ate up this idea that he was being unfairly persecuted. And I, you know, felt like I was being unfairly persecuted as this, like, weirdo, alt-y kid as a junior high student. Never mind the fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening. That's just like how I felt because I was a teenager. And I think he really, really used that exact thing as a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior. And honestly, I agree with you.

I, you know, I listen to Warner's music a lot as a youth. And I really, really liked him. Like at a poster, a Marilyn Manson poster in my locker next to a prodigy poster to give you sense of how old I am. Remember prodigy? Oh, yeah. I think that, like, I listened to all different kinds of music, but the only music that had this kind of over-the-top exaggerated, like,

climate around it was Marilyn Manson. And so that fed into the idea that he was being unfairly persecuted. At the time, you know, I don't know if people remember what it was like to be a young person after Columbine. If you were, like, a little altie or if you were all black, it did kind of feel like, you know, the powers that be were cracking down on who you were in the aftermath of that shooting. And so I think that had there not have been such a backlash to the music, Warner's music would have just been another in a mixed bag of stuff that I liked. You know, I liked Prodigy. I liked Spice Girls. I liked so many different things. But because of this over-the-top response to his music, it pushed me that much further into this kind of, I don't know, dangerous.

vibe where he gets to position himself as unfairly persecuted and anybody who doesn't like him or his behavior is just, you know, doesn't get it and doesn't get you edgy teen. Edgy teen, I like it. Well, I will say I was older than y'all. So I'm like, yeah, I wasn't, okay, never mind. We're not going to tell you the time frame of this. But I do find that interesting that we have this conversation because absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying, this is this, kind of that whole time frame around the Matrix, as well. well as video games and blaming all of these things, but also how they like to over demonize, kind of like how it's happening with Q&N and when we talked about sex trafficking and that

they are doing so much theatrical things that make no sense that is overshadowing the actual problems that are happening and therefore exactly like taking attention away from the true crimes or the things that are so horribly wrong because it is being overshadowed by the caricature of accusations merely for a platform, merely for politics. And it's so obnoxious because, yeah, because of that, Marilyn Manson got this credibility for being misunderstood, A, as you had already said. And then also, he's able to use that now as a part of his defense today. But I know we're going to be able to talk about that in a minute. Absolutely. I mean, and then also, I mean, like, what you just said, isn't it interesting how the American Family Association and all these politicians

were trying to banish shows. We never did much about guns, though. That was just like, we had the conversation about violent video games, The Matrix, black clothing, trench coats, Brian Warner, but not the guns. So it's exactly what you just said of kind of an intense overreach

that reaches to the wrong cause, I guess, and then lets the real cause just go unanalyzed. Yeah, and I think that something that's been on our minds a lot lately is, this idea of consent and how our environment is really set up where true consent for women is almost impossible. And this situation being such a grooming situation where you have this person coming in who's much older

and who is showering you with attention. And I was saying recently on an episode, like, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I was raised to be this way. But like when I was 18 and people would cat call me, I'd be like, flattered. It'd be like, good. Oh my gosh.

I have desirability. That means I have value. And that put me in some unsafe situations. So this, I hate this. I hate that she was young and there was this older person that she respected and she was getting this attention. And it's just absolutely predatory, absolutely praying on her. Yeah. I mean, I can really identify.

I'll just say that. And it's one of those things where you don't necessarily realize it. until you're older. And I mean, it applies in this situation, too. I want to be careful about how I speak about this because it is part of the conversation. But when Evan Rachel Wood was in a relationship with Marilyn Manson early on, and keep in mind, she's 18, she's very young. I remember very clearly her in interview saying, like, oh, people need to stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed. And I think it's easy for people to say, like, oh, well, now we're supposed to believe her when she says that she's being, that she was being groomed or coerced.

Well, she was 18 when that happened. She was 18 when they met. Like, you're so young. And so it's completely tracks with my own personal experiences that you might not have the world experience or just the life experience or, you know, your own understanding of your place in the world at 18. It might take a few years for you to look back on that and say, hey, I was being coerced or, hey, you know, I was being groomed. hey, some things happened that shouldn't have happened. And I didn't have the language or the voice yet to say, I don't want this to happen. And I think that's one of the reasons why this story is one that needs to be told because I think that's all of our.

I think that's so many of our stories. It's so common. I think it's completely unfair to use that as a reason to not support survivors, not listen to survivors because it is so common. Right. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite on humor. me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast The last point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julie. it's random. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live.

This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. and making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill,

and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder

and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of, deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think that big portion of this conversation is that the early sexualization of young girls point blank is part of this problem because I know a lot of this conversation when Evan Rachel Woods came out in her acting career, she was 1314 and came out with this big indie

film that pretty much talked about young women growing older real quick, trying to survive and thinking the way to survive is to be sexual and grown. Like that was the whole basis of the movie, which that's a whole conversation in itself. But because of that, because of things like that, that's where she came into the 18-year-old and no one, no one listening to the fact that this is grooming. Like, I don't care if she's legal now, which is a bullshit term, that whole barely legal bullshit that I really want to punch everybody in the face every time they say. it. That's that conversation is really sexualizing these young girls and telling them they are

of more worth because they're acting grown, because they are finally in their way of being a woman and finding out and not having the support and understanding or people even letting her know the whole concept of consent and why that is a big conversation that needed to be had way back when and because of that feeling trapped because she is being told this is what you put yourself in. You knew what you were getting into, which is the formula of of all of the victim blaming, which we see today, that has not gone away that for some reason is used by everyone, not just men, women all between you,

because it's so hard to let go of that internalized misogyny of saying, but you knew. Absolutely. And she explicitly says that in some of the things that experiences that happened to her that we'll talk about in a moment. Like she explicitly says exactly what you're referencing that, you know, she had internalized

that she was meant to just go along with whatever. And that was, that was like what she was. that was like what she was supposed to do. And that is something that I think that we all internalize. And we have to sort of, like, I know that I have a lot of unlearning to do around, you know, like saying no when something doesn't feel right or when, you know. And for me, it has been a lifelong process. And so it sounds like for her, she had to learn that as well.

And as you said, I mean, it starts so early. And 18 really is so young. You know, she talks about how when she first met Brian Warner, she said that she really liked him and what he stood for and she wrote in her journal that she thought that he was the hero and the spokesperson of misfits. And it just really does sound like he did a very good job

of making her feel like that was true, that she maybe felt like a misfit and that he was an advocate for people who felt like they didn't belong and that he really used that persona to continue to abuse women and girls pretty much in public. There's this great piece in the Atlantic

that sums it up nicely called Marilyn Manson told us what he was. It sums it up very nicely. They write, If we believe Wood and more than a dozen women who have accused Manson of abuse, then a strange twist is that the aftermath of Columbine

seems to have enabled Manson to become what Wood's brother describes in the documentary as, quote, a wolf and wolf's clothing. The hysterical invented accusations leveled at Manson then, that he molested children on stage, killed animals, underage fans with liquid ecstasy,

minimized other things that might have been happening in plain sight. But they also allowed Manson to detach his artistic persona from himself and allowed others to infer that anything offensive he did was just performance art, winking commentary on America's hypocritical and immoral core. And that to me really sums up why I'm not comfortable calling him, quote, Marilyn Manson, because, you know, inventing this persona and saying that it's performance, art should not be a way to avoid and excuse accountability for your own abusive behavior. And I believe that's what the Marilyn Manson persona has allowed him to do.

Right. Hello, Kanye West. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. I mean, it's all part of the same, like, fucked up abusive ball of yarn, right? Right. Genius.

Artistic. Like, it's, I could talk a day about this, but it's all like two sides of the same messed up coin. Well, that's, I mean, I'm referencing that. Kanye literally is hiding a little bit behind Brian Warner by bringing him on stage and putting him as like, he's an ally because we're the one in the same. And you're like, yeah, you are. That should tell you something. Yeah.

I remember, I had forgotten until you just mentioned that he brought him up on stage during his Jesus tour. And, you know, I think it was meant to be like all of these malign people who don't understand our genius. And it's like, you're right. I don't understand your genius. I think it's abusive. Yes, yes. And I think you're hiding behind that. to get away with it, and that's a problem.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. This is his thing. In interviews, Warner pretty much is open and in public about some of the abusive behavior that he has put wood through. You know, in a pretty notorious spin interview, he talks about how he fantasized about smashing her head with a sledgehammer or how after they broke up and she stopped taking his calls, that every time I called her that day and I called her 158.

times. I took a razor blade and cut myself on my face and on my hands. But then later, he is able to say, oh, well, I didn't really mean those things, or I didn't really feel those things. I didn't actually do those things. I was just playing a character. And I believe that that excuse allows him to skirt accountability for his actual behavior as Brian Warner. You can't say that, oh, that was just me playing a rock and roll character who is Marilyn Manson when you have an actual partner who is accusing you of abusing her. Yeah. And, and, it's really terrifying because we're also seeing this in politics where I'm seeing politicians being like, oh, well, that was just a joke and you didn't get it, right? Like, doing that same

sort of thing. And that's been, that's been really damaging. And also I, again, I grew up listening to a lot of punk rock and emo of the, like, 2000s, early 2000s. And we were just talking about this, like a lot of the lyrics in that, which is a lot of men singing about, like, pretty much hating women and blaming them for their sort of violent actions. And then, and also the TikTok thing you were talking about, Samad, it's the same thing. We're seeing it again, like, being like, no. I mean, that's just who I am.

That's my art. That's how I expressed myself. You took it too seriously. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. Maybe this is because I'm older now. I'm going back and thinking, like, wow, I was listening to music that was like, there's this brand new song where he's like, have another drink and drive yourself home.

I hope there's ice on all the roads. And it's like, that's pretty, like, I was like a very young person screaming along to lyrics that were pretty dark. And, you know, I'm someone who like, I love, I love music and I think people should listen to what moves them. But we should also be a little critical about whether, like, what that was. And if that was okay, there's actually a TikToker. I can't remember her name off the top of my head, but she goes back. replays kind of like screamo punk bands from or you know from that era and unpacks the ways that they are really unfair to women and it's like oh wow i that i had no idea that i was

basically singing along happily for an anthem that's like about disrespecting women and i'm a woman you know right i mean annie and i've been talking about this for a lot while about the romanicizing of abuse as if it's something like that that is should be be a part of your relationship and not understanding. This is really not good. These like the constant phone calls, not great. The, the, I'm going to kill myself if you don't love me back. Like these whole level of like, oh my God, what is happening?

And we've allowed that to be because somehow we've allowed that to be romanticized in our head is this is true love, right? Like this is what it means to be in love to want to die if we're not together. And then going beyond that for men, but like, if I really want you, I have to show you my power, my power means me hurting you maybe or someone else for sure in order to show you that I am the man who can protect you, quote unquote, in so many different ways. And like kind of this whole other trope that we've allowed to be, yeah, that's just men, being men. This is, this is normal. This is good, right? And no one really questioning until after the fact of realizing,

oh my God, there's so much trauma here. Why did we think this was okay? Yeah, I completely agree. we should really be asking the question about what we depict as romantic. And I think something that you said, I can't stop thinking about is that it starts so young. Like, how many of you all remember when if you're a girl and then maybe a guy, a guy when you were a kid pushes you on the playground and some adult somewhere is like, well, it's probably because he likes you. That. Like, you know, like, we should not be, it happens so early that we,

make it okay when quote unquote affection or love is actually abuse. Right. And we should really be asking questions about it. Honestly, one of my go-to-movies that I kind of tease about all the time is rather tooy. And recently,

like there's a scene in it and I was like, oh my God, why did we allow this? In which the rat comes through the roof and you see a couple fighting with a gun, it goes off and he's like, oh my God, and goes back, and they're kissing and making out. And he just laughs and shrugs and walks off. And I'm like, is that okay? This is a Disney.

Wait. Like, we're not even going to talk about how people are really upset about periods, but this is okay. This scene has made it. But, you know, like, this is that level of, like, it literally was just a blip in the screen of a very G-rated movie, and it's romanticized. It's like, oh, but they just love each other.

Oh, that's just one of those with one more couple like that. You know how marriage is, how you sometimes you argue, you get out the gun, then a minute later you're kissing. A gun goes off and then you forget about it. Everything is fine. But that's the thing is like, what are we teaching? I mean, I don't want to be one of those people like, but what is this movie teaching? But like that is, it's become so normalized in these conversations that women really truly,

young girls really truly think this is the epitome of being a woman. This is the epitome of being in a relationship. tough times means he hits me, but I forgive him. Like that's that conversation until you realize, oh my God, I couldn't see it until I left and until I figured out talking to other women, how it was not just him loving me that this is him controlling women in general. Exactly, exactly that. Yeah, gosh.

I feel like we could go. We need a venting session. We need a podcast where we just invent because I'm like, yeah, let's talk about how we're not allowing for consent and all this stuff. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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Listen to Pod Meets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So I know we're not going to go too deep into this, but could you go kind of briefly into what Wood says about what Warner put her through? Yeah, the list of abuses that he put her through are truly horrifying. I honestly don't want to, like this is why I couldn't finish the documentary because it's a lot. So I don't want to spend too much time on it because they really are sickening.

But among them are the allegations that Warner, who Wood says collected Nazi memorabilia, so just a really great guy, would whip her with a Nazi whip. And would, her mother is Jewish, and she was raised Jewish herself. And so this is obviously really messed up. She said that he also deprived her of sleep, forced her to drink his blood in a blood pack where he also drank hers, raped her while she was sleeping, forced her to take drugs, and a lot more. Of the abuse, she says, I felt my brain changed.

I felt it almost calcify, and the world is never the same. And it's just the list of, and I should also say that the kinds of things that she says that he put her through, other women who also dated him say the same thing. And so it's a lot of the same kind of stuff. Like other women that she talks to have said that he branded her or like carved things into their body. Like it's horrifying allegations. And so I should mention that Warner, he denies these allegations. And he says that Wood has been contacting and coercing women into saying they were abused by him. He is currently suing Wood and her Phoenix Rising contributor Ilma Gore. According to time, he is accusing the women of a, quote, conspiracy, in service of which they supposedly, quote, secretly recruited, coordinated, and pressured prospective accusers to emerge simultaneously with allegations of rape and abuse against Warner. Yeah, I find it interesting that we have like 16 women at least coming out. Mm-hmm. Around the same time. and we're, as a society, it seems so much more ready to be like,

but there's this video of her at 18 saying she was into it, right? So it's all lies, she manufactured this whole thing. And he is downtrodden and once again, the one that is getting unwarranted. Exactly. Women don't make this kind of stuff up. This idea that they would be simultaneously trying to come together to come up with these lies about him. Why?

Like, who would do that? Who would want the kind of scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of this kind of abuse? Who would welcome that into their lives? Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures. People don't make this kind of thing up.

Like, it is so rare for people to make up allegations of this kind of abuse that it just, let alone 16 different people. It just like, it just doesn't cold water. It just isn't the way it works. And again, probably more than 16 that's coming out. But the conversation is too that the actual events and abuse were so similar to each other. Even the Game of Thrones actress I play Esmei Bianca, I think is her name.

She had similar stories to wood, like being deprived of food, being electrocuted. There are so many things. It's like, this is beyond just maybes. And I do remember that he had one partner who actually was like, that didn't happen to me. and people latched onto that story so hard. And it was kind of like, but that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean it just negates the entirety of the story of who he is at this point in time.

And I can't stand this because it also comes back to the point of demonizing these women and shaming them in every way possible, taking any work of art they did. So as actors who may have portrayed a nude scene at any point in time, see, she's a slut. Obviously, she knew what she was getting into. this whole level of conversations where they just completely try to discredit someone based on this and really feeling like obviously these women are doing it for attention when it actually hurt a lot of their careers. Evan Rachel Woods for a long time was out of so many things, out of projects because of the trauma alone. Yeah, so he did have a ex-partner say he was always nice to me.

And I'm not going to discount what she's saying. But as we know, you know, someone being nice to you doesn't mean that they are never abusive. to other people. And so people absolutely latched onto that. And you're absolutely right that it certainly has not helped the careers or the trajectories of the people who are speaking out. And it's just like that's not how it works. Like people don't lie about this kind of thing. It does not help it hurt Evan Rachel Wood to come out. She risked a lot to come out. And this idea that, oh, they're doing it for attention. Who would want this kind of attention? Right. Who? Right. And also let's talk about the fact that Warner is not in jail.

Exactly. He's thriving. He was on a damn Kanye West show. Ugh, I hate it. I hate it. So you might be wondering, well, okay, in what way is this a tech issue? And so there is one specific incident in the abuse that Wood talks about that I want to focus on right now.

And that is the music video for Warner's song Heart Shape Glasses. That music video features Evan Rachel Wood. She was in that video when she was 19. years old. And he kind of casts her as a modern-day Lolita because apparently the story goes that she was wearing these heart-shaped sunglasses at the party where they met. And in, you know, Lolita wears heart-shaped sunglasses in the book. And so in the documentary, Wood says the music video, we were doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. And she goes on to say,

it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video. I didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to say no because I had been conditioned and trained to never talk back, to just soldier through. I felt disgusting like I had done something shameful and I could tell the crew was very uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do.

I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses. That was the first crime committed against me and I was essentially raped on camera. And so, according to Wood, the music video for heartshed Saped Glasses is actually a video of her rape, and that video is available, not to mention monetized on the platform YouTube as we speak.

Anybody who wants to go see it can look it up. And so Warner's campus, they deny these allegations, and they say that Wood was coherent and involved in the planning of the video. They say, of all the false claims that Rachel Evan Wood has made about Brian Warner, her imaginative retelling of the making of the Heart Shaped Glasses music video 15 years ago is the most brazen and easy to disprove because there were multiple. witnesses. So they maintain that the scenes in that video were actually simulated. However, Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video shoot under the condition of anonymity who corroborated

Wood's claim, saying, I do believe that there were some moments of actual intercourse. And so that, for me, is really how this becomes a tech issue and a tech accountability issue, is that according to Wood, YouTube is promoting housing and monetizing a video of where she says she was being sexually assaulted. And frankly, I'm inclined to believe her. And so the question is, what is YouTube going to do about this? Are they going to just allow a video of a sexual assault to be on their platform and continue to profit off of it? I would say if that's the choice they're making, it's pretty questionable. Yeah.

I'm afraid to ask, but is that the choice they're making? I, you know, YouTube, they quickly took the video down and then they made a donation to anti-rape organizations. Oh, wait, just kidding. They didn't do any of that. They basically, so there's a change.org petition with over 50,000 signatures calling for YouTube to remove the video. And Evan Rachel would share this petition. And they pretty much have signaled that they're not going to take it down. Their spokesperson, Jack Malone, says, we're monitoring the situation closely and will take appropriate action if we didn't.

determine there is a breach of our creator responsibility guidelines. And so this is really why I see this as a tech accountability issue. You know, YouTube like most online platforms, have community guidelines that users have to follow. And according to those community guidelines, content that includes,

quote, non-consensual sex acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their own stated community guidelines. The community guidelines in terms of service says that a user can have monetization suspended or have their entire channel terminated if their behavior away from the platform harms YouTube users.

And so to me, it seems pretty clear. They have publicly stated that their community guidelines prevent non-consensual sex acts or unwanted sexualization in their content. And here we have a video where Evan Rachel Wood says this is exactly that. And yet they're continuing to host this video and profit off of it because we know that's how YouTube makes their money. It's from advertisements that are on the content hosted on their platform.

And so, yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting people to only grapple with this as a, quote, celebrity story, not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence to what they say their community guidelines are. And, you know, I really take issue with that. I really have not seen a lot of folks in the tech community talking about this story as an example, a really clear example of YouTube, I think failing to create a reasonably safe. environment for its users and just for the world. Right. And out of curiosity, because I don't know much about how YouTube works, not tech savvy. Is Warner making money from this as well when he gets all these views? Oh, that is a good question. I actually wouldn't really, I'm actually not totally sure if he specifically is making money from these videos being hosted. But I do know that he has a YouTube account.

And so just how monetization works, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not able to say one way or another, but I wouldn't be surprised. I check. to see if the video was still on the platform before we started this talk. And, you know, right before the video played, there's ads. And so I can imagine, I wouldn't be surprised if he is making money from that as another income stream. And yeah, I guess that's really the crux of why I wanted to talk about this, is that this is what happens when women and other traditionally marginalized people are not really meaningfully centered and reflected in tech. It allows, one, platforms to harm us and make money from our harm and be able to do so without any kind of real

accountability. And two, it allows for, there are so many tech publications that are missing an opportunity to spotlight this as a tech issue in terms of the harm that YouTube is allowing to be spread on their platform. Right. I mean, that's the whole big conversation. is that who is making money off of someone's trauma and this is absolutely what is happening is they're making money off of it and giving views and giving credibility to the abuser once again as a musician and this is such a whole other conversation of like you have a responsibility in making sure that people are not continually retramatized and or being harmed by your content and yes if it is your platform you are responsible point blank exactly and I also think you know you

They're in their community guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if there is a confession or a conviction. YouTube is owned by Google, right? Google is one of the biggest companies in the world and how things work in the platform accountability space. When a huge player in the space does something, it creates pressure for other people to do things. And so if Google was to do something, that would create the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow suit because big platforms really do set the tone. And so I believe that a company like Google, who owns YouTube, should be able to say, we don't need to wait for Brian Warner to confess that he, you know, sexually assaulted Evan and Rachel Wood on the side of this video.

We don't have to wait for a legal conviction. We are Google and we can set the standard for what is it is not appropriate on our platform. And a video of someone being sexually assaulted is not appropriate. I believe that they're really just throwing up their hands and saying, not our problem. Call us when he confesses. Call us if there's a conviction. We're going to just ignore this

and hope that you do too. I think they are absolutely just abdicating responsibility. And guess what? You don't get to do that when you're fucking Google. When you're a huge company like Google, you have a responsibility

that is very, very powerful. And you don't get to just say it's not our issue. We're going to wait for the courts to figure it out. We're going to wait for him to confess when you're Google. That is so irresponsible. and it sets up a dynamic where other platforms can follow suit.

So it really is irresponsible, cowardly, and also just harmful. And again, they're making money from this inaction. They're continuing to just let this video rack up millions and millions and millions of views that are being made from a video of someone being sexually assaulted. And let's also point out that it's a video, not the entire artist, not his whole genre of music. like one video, that was the request. It shouldn't be that hard.

Exactly. And I guess I just, I mean, yeah, it shouldn't be this hard. And I watch so desperately to believe that a different world for survivors is possible. In the scheme of things, so small, asking for one music video to be removed, in the scheme of things, what is that? You know, I feel like that is such a small ask

that a survivor has clearly, made and they're just able to say no. I want to believe in a world where survivors can expect more. Survivors can expect dignity and respect and to be listened to and meaningfully centered. And I believe Google has a chance to do that, that they're just giving away. Right. And it's exactly what you were saying that this is a question of believing women, respecting women. Let's say it was consensual just for the sake of argument. And she's like, I don't like this because whatever happened beforehand in this relationship, it was traumatic.

Please take it off. That should be enough. That should be enough without having to regurgitate the same experience and tell them exactly how it hurt you, which is also traumatizing. It shouldn't have to be that we have to put on a fanfare for someone to believe that we are in pain. Point blank. Yeah.

I mean, we shouldn't have to scream just to be heard. You know, into this week's episode of my podcast, there are no girls with the internet. We talked to a survivor and an advocate Alison Turcos who was sexually assaulted in a lift. And she talks so eloquently about how she is expected to regurgitate the most traumatic, painful thing that happened to her over and over and over again

and that we create a world where that is supposed to be the pathway for survivors to get justice. And I don't think that survivors, A, owe you their stories or B, should have to relive this pain just to get anyone to do something. YouTube has the power. They could decide to take this one video down tomorrow. They take things down all the time

for all different kinds of reasons. And I believe that making a survivor retell her pain in this way to then do nothing. It's just survivors deserve better. Survivors should be able to expect better. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's an excellent point

because as someone who used to like upload YouTube videos a lot, They get taken down all the time because the music was too close to other music. So it's like we're clearly, I've been thinking this whole time as we've been talking about this, the messages that young girls are picking up from witnessing this, from a celebrity that they see, and this is the response that she gets. And, you know, we care more about copyright infringement than survivors and how that influences you and what you think is normal and what if you're going to report, which again, that is very personal. and complicated and does have a lot of fallout often,

but also just this idea of men getting this kind of genius artistic card and the women that they've left behind, this path of trauma that they left behind that we've determined is okay because we've got this art out of it and that's what it takes. And I've done some work in acting before and it is very, you will get that messaging hardcore, where it's like, but this is going to be great and this is going to launch your career

and this is what it takes. This is what you have to do because it's so competitive. And oftentimes it's just like an excuse to take advantage of you and then you'll never hear from them again. God, like if you were an, so that's how it is in a lot of entertainment industries.

Let's say that you were an accountant and someone was like, well, Joe is a really gifted accountant. So you're just going to have to put up with him sexually assaulting you and physically abusing you and treating you horribly because he's just a really talented accountant. Uh, no.

And it should be the same way across industries. There shouldn't be these huge carve-outs for men to get away with abusive behavior and have that abusive behavior be repackaged and sold back to us as genius. No, I completely agree that whether you are a musician, an actor, or an accountant, there should be some clear standards for how you are expected to behave. And, you know, a music video. is a workplace. You know, that's, it has a crew,

it has people who are paid to be there. And, you know, there's just no excuse for that. And I'm unwilling to accept that that's, you know, the marker of genius or that we have to put up with men's, powerful men's bad or abusive behavior to get great art. No, I'm just unwilling. That's unacceptable to me. Agreed.

Agreed. I can't wait. We got to have a venting session on one of these. I need it. I mean, obviously I need it. I feel like we all do. I can feel it in me. Well, in the meantime, thanks so much for bringing this topic to us, Bridgett, giving it the nuance that it deserves.

Always appreciated. Where can the good listeners find you? Well, I would love it if you listen to my podcast. There are no girls on the internet. Not all of our conversations are about heavy, sad issues, but we would love to have you listen. You can check it out on this very network, IHeartRadio. You can follow me on Instagram at Bridgett, Marie, D.C.,

or on Twitter at Bridgett, Yes, and definitely do that. And we can't wait to talk some more, Bridget. Maybe we got some other things in the works coming up. Very exciting, very exciting. So look out for that, listeners. If you would like to email us, you can. Our email is SepediaMovStuff at iHeartMu.com.

You can find us on Twitter at Momv Stuff Podcast or an Instagram at Stuff Wonder Have Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina. We love you, Christina. Yes. And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Underver Told you's production of IHeartRadio. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the AheartRadio app,

Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories

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