There Are No Girls on the Internet - Facebook makes money off of harming girls: Stuff Mom Never Told You

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

Frances Haugen’s is just the latest former Facebook employee to blow the whistle on the platform’s harms. Bridget talks to Anney and Sam of the Stuff Mom Never Told You podcast about what Facebook knew and why whistleblowing is an identity issue. The Wall Street Journal’s Facebook Files: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-facebook-files-11631713039 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast. and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations

about what happens when the brain goes off course. Listen to Intercosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are no girls on the internet as a production of IHeart Radio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, This is there are no girls on the internet. We're back with a little hiatus update.

This time all about you test it, Facebook. Now, if you've been listening to Tangoti for any amount of time, you know that Facebook is the platform I love to hate. I think it's an evil company that is profited from destabilizing democracies and hurting already marginalized communities. Hate Facebook. Hate them, can stand them. And last week, we learned a lot more about just how aware Facebook is

about the harm their platform causes in our communities. I joined my friends Annie and Samantha at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You to discuss the harm that Facebook causes young women and girls, revealed in the bombshell Wall Street Journal expose, based on documents and data from former Facebook employee turned whistleblower, Francis Hagen. But Hagen is not the only person who has blown the whistle on Facebook's shady practices. And next week, we'll hear from Sophie Zhang, a former Facebook employee who blew the whistle on Facebook last year. trust me when I say you will not want to miss her incredible story. But in the meantime, here's my deep dive into Facebook's damaging impact on teen girls on Stuff Mom Never Told You. Hey, this is Annie. And Samantha.

And welcome to Steph Mom Never Told You, a production of IHart Radio. Today, we are so thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing Bridget Todd. Hello, Bridget. Hello, Annie. Hello, hello, Sam. I'm so excited to be here back with y'all again. Always a delight. We're so excited to have you.

because, as we were just discussing, you have brought to the table a topic we wanted to address. We knew super important. But we were like, we better wait for Bridgett, because Bridget, you have got more know-know than either of us do. You've worked with Facebook. You've interacted with these social media companies. You've just been a huge activist and very outspoken in this area.

And so so excited that we are talking about this. today. Yeah. And also, when we're talking about social media, I'm not going to lie, you're one of the people that I see the most of in all of my social media, whether it's Twitter, Instagram, typically more Twitter. And then like Instagram, I see your face and the amazing things you're doing. And I have to ask, I cannot figure out how you're doing everything that you are doing, because you are constantly on go. Like I see you in all the panels and all the conversations, all the interviews, everybody wants to talk to you, of course. But also, you live. What I am seeing to be my fantasy life in the travel? Like, is this your real life? Are you as fantastically living as I see because I'm quite jealous of all of the beautiful trips, all of the sunset pictures, all of the lovely sitting by the water pictures?

What is this life? What is your life, Bridget? I'm so glad you asked. This is actually such a good segue into the topic, which is that I think if you were going to check out my Instagram, you would be like, oh, this is a person who lives a phenomenal life. It's a lie. I mean, yes, I do the trips.

I do the travel. The last few weeks I've been traveling on the road, and I was in the Catskills right outside of Woodstock, New York, which is in my favorite places to go. And if you were just observing from social media, you would be like, wow, this person barely works. And when she does work, she's just like sitting on a stage and it looks lovely.

And then she's like going to the Catskills to her, lovely cabin. I posted a picture on Instagram of me in a hot tub overlooking, like rolling mountains and like very beautiful fall foliage. And to be like honest, I did spend a lovely week in a lovely cabin in the Catskills, but I was also working in the entire time. And so like, it wasn't really that fun. My partner was there and they were working in the entire time. The picture of me in the hot tub, the hot tub had broken. And so we had two good nights with it. And then when I was in it for that picture. I was like, oh, I don't think it's actually on. It's actually kind of cold,

even though I look like very relaxed. So, no, I mean, like, it's such a, like, curated greatest hits reel. And I'm so glad that you asked because I think it's important to demonstrate that, you know, Instagram versus reality, it's not always as peachy,

keen, rosy as it seems. I have to also put in the fact that not too long ago you injured yourself and you're still like just riding on with all of these activities that you're doing, including the fact that you are pretty much bossing it up everywhere and doing all of these interviews. Because I'm like, when does this woman ever stop? Does she ever stop?

Because I'm sitting in my own couch playing the sad phone game that I've been obsessed with while watching things on repeat. Aw. I do a lot of that as well. And it's so funny because we did our first live taping of my podcast. no girls on the internet in New York during that trip. And someone was like, oh, wow, you're back on your feet from breaking your ankle. And I was like, no, I just, I used my cast and my crutches to get on the stage and I changed my shoes.

So again, you would think that I'm totally healed. It's like, no, in actuality, I'm still in the cast. Yeah, I mean, that is such a great segue for what we're talking about. And this story around Facebook and particularly the damage that it does to young girls has, like, caught the national attention recently. The national attention. And, like, it was a skit on SNL,

and it's been funny slash sad to see these older politicians try to make sense of things like Instagram. Oh, gosh. Oh, my gosh. But it's just so much of what you bring in these episodes just demonstrates the real world damage and impact that we often separate or believe that the Internet doesn't have, but it does. So can you break down this whole thing?

I will try my best. There's a lot going on. So, you know, Facebook has had a rough. I mean, a pretty intense few weeks is a lot happening. And the thing I really want to focus on is the harm. specifically to young girls, like teenage girls, that is not the totality of like what's going on and like the last few weeks for Facebook

and really the last few months for Facebook. But if I were to talk about all the different harmful things that Facebook has done and is doing, you'll be here all day. So I really want to focus on the impact that it has on young girls and teen girls because, you know, I just think that like it's easy for teen girls and their experiences to be sort of sidelined or marginalized.

And so with all the different information coming out, I really want to focus on that. And so just generally kind of like what's happening and sort of why this conversation is taking place, the Wall Street Journal published a series of really bombshell exposés about Facebook called the Facebook files. It's also a podcast, if that's how you prefer to get your media. And it was all based on leaked data from documents from a company gathered by a whistleblower named Francis Hagan, who used to work in Facebook's now defunct civic integrity team. And that was the team that was really tasked with combating things. like misinformation and making sure that misinformation and disinformation did not like derail elections.

And so it's not surprising to me that they dismantled that team. And it's a nine-part series. And it pretty much chronicles Facebook's most harmful and troubling practices and behavior. From this expose, we found out things that like the fact that high-profile celebrity Facebook users are pretty much exempt from Facebook's moderation rules and that Facebook is aware that their platform is used to, quote, promote human trafficking. and domestic servitude. And so I would recommend that anybody

either read the entire series or listen to the podcast because there's so much there. It's like every new drop I'm like, wow, wow, and I'm somebody who studies and works on Facebook and the harm that they perpetuate. Right.

Right. It did seem to be like, oh wait, and what? Oh, wait, and what now? And it's interesting to me because I think, think we've talked about on the show, but just

in society in general, it's interesting to me when we make these jokes, but why are we accepting this as the reality? But one is, you know, Facebook is this place where it is harmful and you're going to get like your weird uncle giving you

some strange conspiracy theory. And we're just like, yeah, that's cool. That's what Facebook is. The powers that be were so like, yep, you know, it doesn't really matter because like you said that these issues that are impacting teen girls in this case are just seen as sort of frivolous or like they're being emotional,

like it's just social media, what's the big deal, right? Yeah, but apparently it is a big deal. And it has been making an impact, and Facebook did this, they knew it, and they kept going on with their platform, and they tried to hide it. But now that it's come out,

like, heavy sigh. Heavy sigh. So can you talk about the scope of the issue here? Yes. So as you said, I mean, like, something to note is that even though we're all talking about it and it's in the news, a lot of this information is really not new. It's stuff that we've known from prior research or just from like being a casual user of the platform. If you're a casual user or Facebook even, you probably might have suspected like, oh, Facebook might be making money off of causing harm.

And so this is really not surprising, but exactly as you put it, I think why this is news right now is that we're getting an insight into how much Facebook already knew about the harm that their platform causes in our society and how much they're trying to sort of downplay it. And so another reason why we know that this is not a new issue is that there have been Facebook whistleblowers in the past. Sophie Zhang, she's a former Facebook data scientist who uncovered abusive political manipulation using fake engagement. She found a series of multiple blatant attempts

by foreign national governments to abuse the platform on vast scales to mislead their own citizenry, which calls international news on multiple occasions. That's from her report. The summary of that is basically that accounts belonging to government leaders were using fake accounts to engage with their content

to make it look like it's more popular than it is. So if I'm a government leader and I put out, like, we have plans to do this. And then I have a bunch of fake accounts who are like, yes, we love this. plan. We love this plan. We love this plan. It's like building fake agreement for your policies. And so essentially that's what Soapy's saying uncovered. And, you know, Facebook has been allowing and profiting off of these harmful practices forever. So this is really not new. And I always

like to remind people that Facebook started because Mark Zuckerberg, when he was in college, created a website called Face Smash, which basically was like a way to rank the attractiveness of his female co-students, right? And so misogyny and attacks on women and harm against women, this is like not a mistake. It is baked into these platforms like Facebook from the very beginning. Zuckerberg will tell you like, oh, that's not true, that's not true. Like, I happen to build a website called

FaceMash that was shut down and then a few months later created a website that was pretty much the same thing called Facebook. Those are unrelated. Obviously, that's not true, but that's what he would tell you. And so, yeah, the fact that websites and platforms like Facebook are harmful to young women should not be a surprise because in fact they were created on that harm. That is a big part of why they exist in the first place. And reading this expose, it really gets into the harm that Facebook has done in terms of teen girls and young women. So trigger warning, you know, this talks about

eating disorders, suicide depression, and so that's something that is tough for you to hear about. unfortunately, that's a lot of what is going on. And, you know, this is really something that is kind of personal to me because, you know, I love the internet. I love being online and I always have. And when I first got on the internet, like, I'm old, so this was the late 90s, I had so many different kinds of experiences. Some of them were negative.

You know, I was definitely in chat rooms doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing when I was young. But some of them were also incredibly, like, liberating and self-affirming. like, if not for having the internet in my bedroom in my like small Virginia town, I wouldn't have known that I was like, that I'm queer. I wouldn't have known,

like I don't know that I would be doing what I'm doing today or like even living the life that I am living today. Like that, like the internet is what allowed me to see myself and fully become myself as an adult. And I keep thinking like, this was 1999. And so the ecosystem did not exist to have billionaires. making money profiting off of my negative experiences and negative feelings. And I don't think I would have been able to use the internet as this tool of self-discovery

and self-affirmation had that been the case. And I really do think that, like, the younger generation, they deserve to have an online experience that is not a marketplace for their pain, for their negative feelings, and it does not incentivize them to be the worst versions of themselves. And I'm really lucky that I came of age when I did, when there wasn't a marketplace for my pain as a young girl. But today's generation, as these leaks really, really demonstrate, is really not so lucky. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite.

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So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it?

Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of ha, who.

Ha ha, ha, ooh. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune in a pod meets twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to Podmeets Twirl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers,

and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started in my car and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting, I was having panic attacks, I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression

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iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know we've talked before about things like SpawnCon and how these big celebrities, usually women, in this case, will try to sell these items that are all about being thin, usually, and what I'm thinking of. And if I had been young and I had seen that, and all these challenges people have about being super thin, I know for a fact that would have impacted me. That would have been something that I would have thought,

okay, this is normal. I need to try to do that. I need to look this certain way. And those messages were already strong without that. I just know for certain that it would. And I am someone who, the internet is, I love the internet. I think it's a beautiful place for a lot of things. And I know when this Facebook outage happened, people were like, well, you know,

on one hand celebrating, but we should also remember, like, you know, marginalized people who connect that way and also businesses that run that way, all these things. But it just has become so, for me, like I'm going to feel bad about myself if I engage in this. It's such a weird dichotomy to me because there's this one group of you see things that I really wish I had seen as a kid. So we're talking about people being able to find themselves and not realizing maybe there

is a reason why you are this way. Maybe that doesn't make sense that you're home. But there's a community out there that can see you, that knows you and feels what you feel. But at the same time, you have this other aspect. of this untruth, like you're talking about this fake persona of happiness that doesn't truly exist. And therefore, if you haven't reached that or if you don't try to reach that, then you have failed. So these two, like, vast differences is such a heartbreak to me because I'm like, yes, this is good, but this is not good. So where do we fall on this line?

Because I'm not going to lie. It wasn't until after that I saw all the notifications that all these things were down that I realized it was even down. I was like, oh, is that what happened? Okay, cool. I just assumed me being me, my technology wasn't up and going. So I moved on to whatever the next thing was. But this conversation that we have, when we see how much of an influence, that is the influence. There's no real middle ground, especially when we talk about the younger generations, about they're going to be influenced, whether it's the positive side that they're on or the negative side that they're on, they're on one of them. And I couldn't imagine what that feels like today, and I'm insecure as hell as an adult.

So coming as a teen, trying to really figure out who they are and feeling like maybe their home life isn't what they want or what they need or it's not healthy and then having to go to this spot to this space and you don't know what's safe anymore. And I think about that with my nieces and nephew that I'm like, oh, my God, this is what they're growing up with. And I see that level of like, how do we help them? but at the same time not try to pull them away from the world, make them naive and not be a part of the world.

Such a weird thing. Yeah, I mean, you just articulated such a tension that I feel as someone who loves social media, uses social media, but is really clear about these downfalls and these negative aspects of it. It can be used to find community, feel less alone, you know, build movement, but it can also be used in these incredibly damaging and negative ways. And I think you really put it so well, Sam, this idea of like, you know,

we know from this leak and from the Facebook, you know, Facebook's own words and their own data that platforms, their algorithms, really do incentivize, you know, the negative. And so you see more content that is polarizing or that makes you angry or that is insidiary rather than content that is like positive or affirming or that kind of thing. Like algorithms prioritize the bad. And I think that young people can have all different kinds of experiences online. Some of them good, some of them bad. But it's a problem when platforms incentivize the bad, right? When they traffic in the bad, when they promote and amplify the bad. So it's not just like a neutral experience where whoever is using the platform can decide if they want to gravitate toward experiences online

that are going to be affirming and good and, you know, all of that stuff, or bad and extreme and incidiary and polarizing when you have an algorithm that is prioritizing one over the other, which we know that they are. And, you know, it's, in putting together the research for this episode, you know, I'm an adult, right? I'm a fully grown person. And I struggle with insecurity. I struggle with, you know, self-image. I struggle with comparing myself to my peers. I struggle with all of that stuff. And I'm a fairly like confident, secure person. When I was younger, I, I'm so lucky that social media wasn't the way that it was now when I was younger. Like Annie, you were just saying, like, I know that that would have really been hard for me.

I know that I would have struggled. I know that I, that it just would have been a bad time. It would not, the internet would not have been a place of self-discovery. It would have been a place where I went to think about all the ways that I didn't measure up. And it makes me so sad that that is exactly the experience that we are allowing for young people today. Like, that is just like their experience of being on. line is one of, you know, feeling bad about themselves. And I hate that.

I hate that for them. They deserve so much better. Right. And, you know, as a person who, again, we've talked about this, is like being on the inside of seeing what that damage can do, being a part of a workforce that worked with at-risk teens, trying to hold people accountable. I can't imagine.

So we have some of these leaked documents. that I know, and I've seen a few tweets and articles talking about how these women specifically have felt threatened and are feeling at this point, even now, like, oh, this is dangerous. I've come to dangerous grounds. But with this happening internally, people have had to know, how has this allowed to happen? What are they saying inside of this company that they're like, eh, whatever? Like, how are they even trying to frame this? Yes.

So let's get into that. So one thing to note is that a lot of this pertains to Instagram, but it's important to note that Facebook owns Instagram. They take a lot of steps to try to conceal that fact, but they're the same company. And so here's some of the findings from the Wall Street Journal Exposé. Since at least 2019,

Facebook has been studying the impact of its platform on younger users. Their research has repeatedly found that it is harmful to a large portion, especially teen girls. Here's a direct quote from a slide from an internal Facebook presentation in 2019. We make body image issues worse

for one in three teen girls. In another presentation, they internally said, 32% of teen girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse. Another slide said, teens blame Instagram for increases in the rate of anxiety and depression they feel. Their reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups. And another leaked study found that 17% of teen girls

say their eating disorders got worse after using Instagram. And, you know, so this is from their own internal documents and this stuff that they knew that they talked about with each other. Facebook also internally is aware of the link between their platform and things like depression and suicide. According to their internal studies, of users who reported suicidal thoughts, 13% in the UK and 6% in the U.S., traced them back to Instagram. Another transatlantic study found that more than 40% of Instagram users who reported feeling unattractive said that they began feeling that way on Instagram. And about a quarter of the teenagers who reported feeling not good enough said it started on Instagram. And again, this is not really like news news because studies have been showing that Instagram is like the most negative platform for teens for a while.

In 2017, a study by Young Minds and the Royal Society for Public Health showed that Instagram had the most negative impact on young people's mental health of all the social media networks. And, you know, if you're thinking something like, oh, well, maybe this is just a social media problem, maybe all social media platforms are bad. You know, yes, all social media platforms have their negative. aspects, but these findings were specific to Instagram. And so that's really because Instagram is one of the only platforms that really sort of encourages what Facebook calls, quote, social comparison. And so it's this thing where it's like you are feeling pressure to compare your life to someone else. And so think about a platform like TikTok, right? Like that's a platform that is really kind of performance-based, right? It does not invite comparison the way that Instagram

does. And so, again, like, I have definitely had times where I wake up and I scroll Instagram and I see all my peers and their seemingly perfect lives. And I put my phone down and I feel like crap. You know, even as an adult, it's so easy to succumb to this pressure that you have to be perfect and have to, like, show your best moments. But I think especially for young people who are so impressionable, you know, it can really morph into things like depression, self-esteem, eating issues, food issues. And we should not just say, be accepting that. Like that should not just be like the cost of those young people being on social media. It should be imperative to create a social media experience that does not profit off of

these terrible harm to our children, our kids. Right. And I'm not going to lie. It makes me want to scream. Like what's the point of doing all this research? Obviously they wanted to know, but they haven't really fixed anything. They haven't helped anything. As in fact, when we talk about SponCon, the whole idea is like they bring on people. They They sponsor people who make it look easy. And it takes incredibly hard to tell what's real and what's not because half the things is like, this is definitely ad. But is it? Because they push it forward and say this is the ideal situation.

These people's lives is what you should seek. And therefore, we're going to give you some help by you can allow you to buy these things to meet that standard. It's such a weird thing because they push this. It's a part of their narrative. Oh, absolutely. Like, the expose showed these internal, like, Slack conversations and whatever the Facebook internal Slack version of Slack is. I can't remember what it is. But you have people at Facebook talking about these studies and these findings being like, oh, like, isn't that the fun of Instagram, you know, comparing yourself to other people and seeing how, like, the 1% of, like, really hot people live? Like, you know, I thought that was like the whole point. And the way that they talk so callously about it. But like, oh, yeah, isn't that what people want from our platform to constantly be comparing themselves to unattainable, airbrushed, filtered versions of a reality that could not possibly exist?

And just like their inability to see how harmful that would be. You know, I remember when I first realized how often people are using filters and FaceTune and things like that on their pictures. Because I would see these women where it's like, how was it possible to have a waist that thin and a butt that nice. Like, how are you standing up and walking around without falling over? It doesn't make sense. And I was like, oh, it's not real.

It doesn't actually look that way. And let's not talk about the fact that most of these people are white women or white community. And so let's talk about being a person of color, really being ashamed of being a person of color and realizing, oh, it's still the standard. To be white, to be small, to be, you know, young, this is the standard that we should be attaining to, thank you. One more time of something that I can't change and be. Absolutely. Isn't it interesting

that when you use what platforms call beauty filters, on a non-white face, the beauty filter pretty much translates to like, oh, you made your lips and nose thinner. We basically made you look white. And it's like, oh, well, so what are you trying to say? Like, what is really, what are you trying to say? I don't know. I have a feeling you and I are

in the same boat because oftentimes these filters, I'm like, nothing changed. I don't understand what's happening. You can't like my dark brown eyes to be blue on what is this? And literally being confused about how they look that way. And I was like, oh, these are for white people. Yes. Okay.

I mean, and that's kind of like, not to go off on a tangent, but like even that concept alone is so harmful in tech. And it's so common. Like they just came out with a new iPhone a couple weeks ago. And they're people, I don't have it. I still have my old janky earlier model iPhone. But apparently this is the first camera that can actually take these. pictures of people with darker skin.

And part of me is like iPhone has been out since, what, 2007, and y'all finally realize that people who are not white exist. And for so long, if you were somebody who didn't have, like, light skin, to get a decent picture of yourself on an iPhone, you had to be meticulous about your lighting and your angles. And if you weren't, you came out like a shadow blob monster. And it's like, wow, finally, after all these years, y'all have developed a technology that can just take my photo

and have it not look wild. Right. So I can't imagine. I have a feeling that if we looked at the percentage of young teens of color, the numbers would be higher for those who are completely marginalized within that community of seeing like, oh, I really wish that I was not my ethnicity. You know, just going beyond that, that how, yeah, Facebook is racist. Like, let's just add that to the caveat of not only are they sexist, not only are they sexist, not only are they, fat shaming. Not only do they have all of these things, but yeah, they are racist as well because they have, again, the standard of the white man who, yeah, to me, he is the villain in this

story. Oh my God. Mark Zuckerberg is the villain, but also it's he's the villain, but also Cheryl Sandberg. Like, there are so many villains in this story. And I don't know how Cheryl Sandberg has not been able to be like the public face of villainry here, but it really is like, these people are knowingly making lots and lots of money off of the pain and harm and sometimes the deaths of our children. And it's just, when I intellectualize that, it's like, how is that okay? How is it okay that like people are getting rich off of harming our kids? It's for all the different ways that we talk about, you know, protecting children and protecting youth. It's like, here is a clear way

that our kids are being harmed. And not just that, people are making money off of it. Right. And we've just internalized it, like, that's just how it is. And it's completely unacceptable to me. Yeah. Agreed. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, N.L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the

IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two. combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live.

This is David Egelman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, We're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic.

And making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder

and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the Eye Heart, Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast.

We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor.

I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was... Yeah. Just because we... Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion of the 50th season

from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of... Ha, who. Ah, ha, ooh. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune into Pod Meets Twirled

for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twerld on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaking of the villains, Zuckerberg, what are they saying publicly? Like, are they, have they made any promises of change, anything at all? So this is where it gets juicy, right? So, like, all the different harmful things that they do, we kind of knew about that before.

It's new to know how much they knew in terms of their harm. But they also say a completely different thing publicly than they do internally at Facebook. And so when Facebook's founder, Mark Zuckerberg testified before Congress in March, he said, the research that we've seen is that using social media apps to connect with other people can have positive mental health benefits. So all of these leaks show he knew that wasn't true. He knew all these different ways that his platform and his product create harm. And it seems to me, you know, I'm no lawyer, it seems to me that he was actively misleading both Congress, lawmakers, and the public about what he knew. And we all know, you know, Facebook has a history of really not being honest.

Again, if I were to list all the different examples, we would be here all day. But one that I have like personal firsthand knowledge of is remember back in like 2016 when all these different publications were pivoting to video, well, basically like that was based on Facebook really deeply exaggerating the metrics of video. And so they were like, oh, video is the thing. video was getting so much more attraction than any other kind of medium. And so at the time I worked in media and so many of my coworkers, so many of my colleagues all lost their jobs at media companies because Facebook overinflated and exaggerated the metric of video content on their platform.

And so again, I'm no lawyer, but like that's a lie. This would not be the first time that Facebook has misled the public and others about what's happening at their company, saying one thing when they know another thing to actually be true. And I remember that time in media. Like, Facebook made it so difficult to, like, I left media because I just felt like media companies were capitulating to whatever Facebook said. And so if Facebook said it's video, if you didn't do video content, you basically knew

that you were going to get fired. If Facebook said, like, we were just catering to the whims of this massive company. and it became so impossible to do that work. And so, you know, an entire generation of journalists face such instability and chaos because Facebook misrepresented their own findings. And so according to Hagan's legal team, Facebook executives, including Zuckerberg,

misstated and omitted key details about what was known about Facebook's and Instagram's ability to cause harm. And her attorneys also allege that Facebook violated the U.S. securities laws by lying to investors. And again, like, I'm no lawyer. no expert on this particular part of it, but like, when you say one thing in, when you're

testifying to Congress, when you know another thing to be true, that seems like a problem to me. I don't know. I mean, I think that's lying. I don't know. I think so. I think you're right. I know when it comes to like stocks and stuff, that is really, really bad. And you will get arrested and fired because, yeah, you just made up in order to pretend like you have made profit in order to make more profit. Exactly. It is really wild to me. And it's one of these things where I feel like,

I don't know if it's capitalism or just like a nuance of living in a country like America where some things are lies and some things are true. And I think that we kind of accepted that like, oh, well, of course a big business has to like misrepresent a few things in public to make a buck. And it's like, wait, no, stop. Is that really how it should be that we should just, allow that like it's okay for businesses to behave in this manner that is literally killing kids to make money is like I feel like this whole Facebook conversation is a good place for a hard

stop of what we will allow businesses to do without any kind of accountability. Right. And that's been a piece of this conversation is when people talk about regulating Facebook or how could we potentially deal with this problem, people have brought up other industries and what they have done, correct? Oh, absolutely. So after all of this Facebook stuff was going down, Adam Masseri,

the head of Instagram, who, I have a lot of feelings about him. I won't get into it now. But like he does someone who, because he runs Instagram, I feel like tries to have a kind of quirky public persona and it's like, well, your platform is killing kids.

So like, I don't really care about your quirky socks, but that's either here or there. Basically, after all this went down, he went on the podcast recode and offered a really terrible, but also very telling analogy in response to all of this. He said, we know that more people die than otherwise would because of car accidents, but by and large, cars create way more value in the world than they destroy. And I think social media is similar. So that analogy is wild for a couple different reasons. One is just like, cars, at the car industry, we know that industry is incredibly regulated by, federal and state governments, right?

Like, I got to take my car in every so often to get it inspected by the state, and they have to tell me if it's okay. You know, your car has to have seatbelts, this, that, and the third, that are all, you know, dictated by the state. And we know that, like, the auto industry had to be basically forced into adopting safety measures

that they knew would save lives. And so I hate this analogy, but if that's the analogy he wants to use, then it sounds like what he is saying is like, oh, we need to be heavily regulated, so that we don't harm people the same way that the automobile industry is, right? It's like, what's funny is that when he brought that up, the person who was interviewing him was like, oh, well, you know,

the car industry is very regulated. And he was like, well, you know, we're open to regulation, but we can't have too much regulation either. And it's like, well, what do you want? You just want to be able to harm people for profit with no regulation whatsoever? I'm like, take my analogy, but don't really take my analogy. Thanks. Right.

Right. Also analogy often used in comic books and is always turned around. So this guy clearly doesn't know his X-Men. Right, exactly, exactly. I feel like once you make that analogy, you're opening yourself up to so many, like, you know, gotchas and like brick walls.

It's like, why even go over there? But one of my favorite folks in the disinformation space, this amazing researcher from the Shortenstein Institute at Harvard, Dr. Joan Donovan, she's like one of my heroes. she actually has a much better analogy, which is Big Tobacco. So we know the big tobacco companies, they knew internally that their products caused cancer, yet they misled both lawmakers and the public about it for a very long time. And that's why we had the master settlement agreement in 1998,

which led to some accountability for the tobacco companies, misleading the public about the link between tobacco and cancer. And so Facebook is kind of doing the same thing, misleading lawmakers in the public about the harm that they already have demonstrated that they know their product causes. And so I think that's a really useful analogy because, yeah, like, should a company

be able to mislead lawmakers in the public about the harm they know their product causes to make money? If you agree that the big tobacco company should not have done that, it seems like Facebook is doing something very similar. Right. As in fact is doing something just as similar

in that the old school campaigns for tobacco were directed towards children in saying, like, look how cool you are if you smoke. And women to be thin. Yes, yes. It's honestly, like, when I heard that comparison, it blew my mind because it's the same thing.

Marketing toward young people, marketing toward women. Like, the way that Facebook and tobacco companies have harmed these specific marginalized groups, groups that don't always get a lot of attention or have the biggest platforms, you know, women, young people, It is so similar. And I think that's something that really, really gets me about this whole thing is that, you know, Facebook, we know now that Facebook knew how harmful their product was to young people.

And yet, they continued to try to market to young people, push it to younger and younger audiences. I think on Smitty once before, I talked about how Facebook had had plans to roll out a version of Instagram specifically for kids, knowing that their product was already so harmful to young people. and they continued to court younger and younger users. Like straight up, Facebook does not care if kids are being hurt, harmed, killed, whatever, if it makes them more money. And internal documents showed that they have plans to market to kids who were 10 to 12 years old. They called 10 to 12 year olds a valuable but untapped audience. And another report suggested that Facebook should look into a way to leverage play dates to drive growth among kids.

you know, it is so vile that they knew that their product had such a harmful impact on this young demographic. And yet they continue to discuss how they could spread that harm to kids younger and younger. Right? Because like, you've got to be 13 to get an Instagram account. And they were like, well, you've got to be 13 to have an Instagram account. But 10 to 12 year olds, we really got to figure out how to harm them too. And they're doing it for money. They're getting rich off of it. I swear it's a skit.

I've seen the skit before. about this, like trying to. I don't know if it was like suits or something, but we haven't gotten to the toddlers yet. So how do we market it? So it's like diaper formal wear was like the key. And I was like, what is happening is this real life? It's an onion article, S&L skit come to life.

And I think it's also hilarious and sad that you did. You completely talked about this whole idea that Instagram had of trying to get younger audiences essentially and younger buyers. And you talked about the fact that y'all went in, it was like, hey, bad idea. And this was even before these reports came out. Yes. And, I mean, if they already knew their product was hurting young people to just try to further get that lock on younger and younger communities, it's just, I mean, I think it's just evil. Like, that, like, I think that Facebook is an evil company.

I think they are making money by spreading harm to younger and younger folks. and it's just vile. But I think it's also kind of telling them because it kind of leads me to believe that Facebook might not be as powerful as we maybe once thought. You know, young people are not really into Facebook. They use Instagram a lot more,

but like regular Facebook. Facebook is where you go to like see your weird old aunts like nonsensical Facebook posts or your dad's, if you're me, my dad's Facebook post that just says the word test. Like it's like not where you're going to have cool experiences. And the fact that they think,

build the need to lock in and market to younger and younger audiences, kind of makes me think that, like, maybe they're not as big as we think they are. They don't have as much of a hold on certain demographics as they might need to, right? And so, like, social media companies that are doing well don't need to aggressively find all of these little scams to lock in younger and younger users. And we know something about Facebook is that their MO is kind of, I don't want to say stealing, but like, adopt. things from other platforms that are more successful with younger users. And so when Instagram rolled out stories, like disappearing stories,

that was essentially them copying Snapchat, which was very popular with young people. When they started doing reels, that was essentially them copying TikTok, which we know was very, very popular with young people. And so the fact that they are doing all of these little things to lock in younger and younger users might actually mean that their business model is suffering because they're not getting new user-based. they would need to keep their platforms relevant and that if they have an older,

an aging user base, that model is only sustainable for so long. And it also means that maybe they're kind of against the ropes and we might actually get somewhere in terms of creating accountability for the kind of harm that we know they are spreading and mitigating further harm, which I hope is accurate.

I hope that like the fact that they're doing these like increasingly more desperate ways to court increasingly younger audiences means that they're not actually as powerful of a tech bohemist as we might have thought. Right. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com.

Hey, everyone. It's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show.

I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Yeah. Just because we... Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion

in the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of... Ha, hoo. Ah, ha, ooh. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune into PodMeets Twirled

for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to Pod Meets Twirled on the IHeard Radio app, podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety.

I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting, I was having panic attacks, I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety, and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder.

and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Recently, we have seen, you know, these bombshell accounts and this whistleblower in Congress testifying,

and it seems like this is an issue that as touch people across all lines and people can relate to and not care about, want to do something about. Is that a correct assumption? Oh, absolutely. And that's actually one of the things that kind of excites me and gives me a lot of hope, is that there is actually rare bipartisan support for the idea that something needs to be done about Facebook. Democrats and Republicans are actually very much united with the idea of regulating Facebook.

After this Wall Street Journal expose came out on Capitol Hill, Hagan testified at a hearing of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation, Subcommittee on Consumer Protection, Product Safety, and Data Security. Phew, that's an awful. And at this hearing, after she testified, her testimony was amazing. But Republican Senator Jerry Moran of Kansas told the subcommittee chair of Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat from Connecticut, that they should put aside their partisan differences to tackle this common goal of reigning in Facebook. And they agreed. They agreed that they had more similarities than differences on the issue and that the differences they did have were very, very minor. And so Blumenthal said this about the testimony.

If you closed your eyes, you wouldn't know if it was a Republican or a Democrat. Every part of the country has the harms that are inflicted by Facebook and Instagram. And I think it is really heartening to see an issue where everybody's on the same side. It doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat. that everybody can agree that our kids should not, there should not be a marketplace for the pain and the harm of our children and that it needs to stop. And honestly, I think they're exactly right.

We should reject this idea that it's just okay for companies to be making profit off of hurting our kids. Our kids deserve better. I don't really care what happens to the finances of a Mark Zuckerberg or an Adam Waseri or Cheryl Sandberg if it means creating a safer ecosystem for our kids. children. I think they deserve it. I mean, let's be honest. If they stopped making money today,

they'd be fine. Better off than most people. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. But yeah, I find it interesting that this is that conversation. This is the one thing that's tied everyone together. Because, yeah, I think if you go to either side when it comes to the controversial or even

the conspiracy theory level, one thing you can agree upon is that the other believes that the other is out to get them, and giving misinformation because of these social media. Oh, my gosh. That is so true. And it's actually, like, in working in, like, tech accountability,

that's something that I always find kind of funny is that, like, hardcore conservatives believe they are being censored on Facebook. Super progressive lefty folks believe they are being censored on Facebook. You've never seen that meme where it's a black hand and a white hand, like, like, shaking hands, and they both agree. It's like, everybody kind of agrees. They don't like what's going down on. Facebook. It doesn't matter what side you're on.

We all agree we don't like what's happening on Facebook. It feels good to be united against a clear common enemy. Speaking of tech accountability, I mean, we wouldn't know about a lot of this, even though

we had kind of known, but we wouldn't have had the hard data and facts, if this whistleblower hadn't come out and taken that risk and determined for herself. Like, the people need to know this. Oh.

Yeah, so, like, the importance of whistleblowers for this whole conversation. And I know that's something that you have talked about before. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm so glad that you brought that up. I, so obviously, this is, like, bombshell news, and I'm so glad that folks are discussing it. But it is so important to not lose sight of the fact

that whistleblowers are really, especially in tech, are really important. On my podcast, there are no girls on the internet. We have a series highlighting women of color, whistleblowers and tech. And it does not surprise me that so many whistleblowers are women and women of color. And I think that it is so important to support them and to highlight their stories. One of my favorite tech whistleblowers is, again, one of my like heroes, Ifoma Uzoma. She blew the whistle on gender and racial discrimination at the company Pinterest and just actually passed groundbreaking legislation in California.

to free the victims of racial and gender discrimination at tech companies from Non-Disclosure Act. So if you signed an NDA but you were the victim of discrimination, you previously, it could be sued if you talked about that experience. But because of this legislation, the Silent No More Act, she is actually freed victims of discrimination up to talk about their experiences. And so, you know, I would encourage everybody to, you know, you can listen to the series that we have on whistleblowers, but also in addition to listening to Francis Hagan's testimony,

make sure that you read about Sophie Zhang's story. You know, I mentioned Sophie Zhang earlier. She was a former Facebook employee. She's a trans woman of color who was a previous Facebook whistleblower. And she deserves so much praise for the work of identifying harm that Facebook was doing when she worked there, working internally to try to mitigate it. And when that did not work, speaking up about it after she left. And, you know, whistleblowing is scary, thankless, dangerous work, and it's often the work of women.

And I think that it's work that becomes even more dangerous, the more marginalized you are. So if you're a woman, it's more dangerous to be a whistleblower as a woman than as a man. It is more dangerous to be a whistleblower as a woman of color than as a white woman. And it's more dangerous to be a whistleblower as a trans woman than a cis woman, right? And so whistleblowing is not this like gender neutral, race neutral, identity neutral thing. It really does take into account our identities. And so, you know, I've already seen these attacks on Hagen that are like, oh, she must just be a disgruntled employee. Or she doesn't really know what she's talking about.

Like in their response, a Facebook comm person was like, oh, well, you know, she never had any direct reports. She didn't really worked on this or that, you know, really trying to minimize her experiences and her voice. or saying that she's just doing it for publicity or for money. And it's like, people do not do the scary, thankless, dangerous work of whistleblowing because they want to get a check, right? Like, it is incredibly destabilizing to your entire life. And often, like, your family life to blow the whistle like this. And so I think it's important that we remember that there are women and women of color

who risk so much and take on such a huge personal cost to get us this. information. And I think we owe it to them to do something about it once they do. And this story, just what you were saying alone, reminds me of the Google employee you had brought to us as well in that same, like, they just want to discredit instead of acknowledge the problems. And so many are used to discrediting women and women of color and women who are marginalized in the LGBTQ community. Like, it's just such almost by the playbook, when, you know, it comes to the misogynist, racist ideals of the U.S., that unfortunately, it still kind of works. Yes. I mean, exactly. Like, the situation at Google was Timit-Jabrew, like, she, I think that it's,

for a lot of women and women of color, we're already seen as margin, we're already marginalized, we're already seen as, like, perpetual outsiders. And so when we speak up, when we practice public courage and public morality and say, like, this bad thing is happening and it's not great, it's, we shouldn't be happening. It's so easy for people to do it. discredit us, the crap on us to say, like, oh, they don't know what they're talking about. And I think, like, it is so important that in the face of that, that we support women who speak up. It's because, you know, it's just, there's already a, an attitude waiting and ready and willing to suppress their voices. Absolutely. And I thank you so much for bringing their names to our

attention and for bringing this topic to our attention. And do you, want to. Are there any resources you want to shout out? And also where can the good listeners find you? One thing I want to note is there are some organizations and initiatives that you can follow if you're interested in knowing more. So you can always check out my work at Ultraviolet. We are a gender justice organization and feminist organization that is really working to keep gender at the forefront of tech harms. You can go to we are ultraviolet.org to find out more. And the Kairos Foundation is actually putting together a campaign asking folks to log out Facebook this November. And so if you're if you're someone who's thinking like, gee, I don't

like what I'm hearing about Facebook and I want to do whatever I can to divest from Facebook a little bit more, check out Kyros' campaign this November about how you can do that. And yeah, if you want to hear more conversations about women, whistleblowers, and just women in tech who are trying to speak up and trying to practice moral courage and trying to act as the conscious of tech platforms in the tech industry. You can check out my podcast. There are no girls on the internet

where we are having conversations about what it means to practice that kind of public courage and public bravery in tech. So we would love to have you. Yes, definitely, definitely go check it out. It's amazing.

You can find Bridget online. It always feels so weird when you're like, does social media platform problems, but find me on there if you would like. Yeah, I mean, pretty much. I watch every, like, tech accountability organization right now, an activist and organizer right now,

is going through the same thing of like, well, I hate Facebook, but I'm on Facebook. What do I do? But if you want to follow me, you can follow me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in D.C. And on Twitter at Bridgett Marie. And you should. Thank you so much for being here, Bridget.

It was a pleasure, as always. Listeners, if you would like to contact us, you can. Our email is Stephanie and Momstuff at iHeartmew.com. You can find us on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told You or on Twitter at Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina. Thank you. And thanks to you for listening. Stuff One Never Told You's production of I Heart Radio.

For more podcasts or My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite chips. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments.

If we didn't talk ever again, I was fine. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis coming to, he's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love.

This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast. And for Mental Health Awareness Month, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety.

I started living in my car and then my car got stolen. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I did a podcast, I wear my sleep mask. I like where this is going.

So if you guys will indulge me. That's right. The incredibly talented and hilarious will fair. On an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We got two. I'm ready to go right up to present day.

Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.