There Are No Girls on the Internet - From Teen Vogue to Tech, 300K Jobless Black Women are a Warning for Everyone

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Black women are leaving the workforce and it’s a warning sign for the entire economy. From media to tech, more than 300,000 Black women have left their jobs in the last year. What’s driving this exodus, and what does it reveal about the state of work in America? Bridget speaks with: Anna Gifty, economist and author of the fascinating new book The Double Tax: How Women of Color Are Overcharged, and Underpaid, and  sociologist Marianne Cooper,  Senior Research Scholar at Stanford University's VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab,  about the economic pressures, pay gaps, and burnout pushing Black women out and why their exit should concern everyone.   Anna and Marianne’s Time piece: https://time.com/7315624/rising-unemployment-black-women-economy/   Get Anna’s great book! https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734115/the-double-tax-by-anna-gifty-opoku-agyeman-foreword-by-chelsea-clinton/   If you’re listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment there to let us know what you thought about these stories, or email us at [e-mail]  Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media!  ||  instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc/ || tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc ||  youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. It has been a rough time for layoffs across a diversity of sectors. We've seen layoffs in media. Here's what one producer had to say after being laid off at CBS. I just got laid off from,

my job at CBS. And every producer on my team who got laid off is a person of color. Every person who gets to stay and will be relocated within the company is a white person. Teen Vogue, once a bastion of political coverage for young people, laid off every black woman on their team before merging with regular Vogue. Not to mention tech, where layoffs have overwhelmingly impacted black women, who not even that long ago were being told by, social media that getting a cushy job in tech was the key to economic stability long term.

So, most of us are worried about the economy right now. But at the same time, we're also being told everything is fine and that the economy is booming. So it feels like something isn't adding up. So maybe it's time to look at one of the only economic indicators that actually tells the truth, black women. Because if you want to know how healthy the economy really is, look it up. We're the canary in the coal mine. When things start to crack and layoffs start to hit, when wages stall, it shows up in our numbers first. So when you see a spike in unemployment among black women, that's not just a statistic.

That's a warning shot. And in 2025, that warning shot has already been fired. More than 300,000 black women have left the workforce. In a piece for time magazine called Rising Unemployment Among Black Women is a bad sign for the economy, Anna Gifty, author of the new book The Double Tax, and Marianne Cooper, senior research scholar at Stanford University's VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, are sounding the alarm about black women's economic realities and why all of us should be paying attention. So I have this sense that we're not being told the full story when it comes to the economy. We're being told

the economy is great, no problems, it's booming, yet everyone I know is worried. How can we get to a more complete story. It has been a repeated pattern over time that black women are the canary and the coal mine. They're the first to let us know that there may be something about to go down in the economy in a negative direction and that very often those warning signs are ignored. And so Anna and I were seeing that play out. But yes, it can be it can be really difficult to know what's happening, which is why you go back to historical patterns. And when we went back and really looked at everything, we saw that black women right now are,

it's really troubling. Even in recent times we've seen sort of an uptick in black women's unemployment or black folks' unemployment and then seeing some sort of economic crisis follow. It's been interesting. I've been following the discourse on econ Twitter, which has essentially become econ Blue Sky, where, you know, Carms are trying to figure out, right?

Like, you know, are black folks actually the real canary in the coal mine? Because they say it's not in the data. We're not seeing that. But I would argue it's because the folks who do ask those types of questions, their analysis is not really lifted up in the mainstream discourse about the economy. And so when you kind of ask the question of, you know, are we being told everything? I would actually argue that people are providing answers to better understand the economy as a whole, especially as it relates to marginalized groups.

But some of those answers are quite frankly not being amplified. And that's because of who's actually providing those answers in the first place. I feel that that's always tail as old as time. It's not that nobody is providing this information or doing this work. Just about anything you can imagine, there is somebody who has made this their life's work. The problem is that conversation might not be amplified. And frankly, it might not be getting to the people who need to hear it.

most. Right. Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's another point that Anna and I have talked about as we're working on this piece is, you know, historically black women, like with the Great Recession, you know, we were seeing foreclosure rates go up among that group in particular. And even kind of in the 2006 to 2008 period, you know, rising, you know, problems seeing bills, all of those things, but all too often, even the scholars and the economists at the time who are flagging that, it gets overlooked by the mainstream, however you want to define that mainstream media, other things. And what's bad about that, first of all, it's leaving black women in the eye of the economic

storm, but it also means that we lose the opportunity to intervene more quickly and start to prevent this widening economic downturn. And so I think that the pattern, social patterns don't just happen. They're not just accidents. And I think it's just a larger reflection of how black women are ignored and overlooked more broadly in our society. Even this discourse that we're having right now is quite frankly to me and many other Black women who study these topics really surprising, right?

So when I saw that the lead story in the New York Times was, you know, featuring the work of Cotica Roy around 300,000 black women leaving the labor force, this is not something that would have been a headline even two years ago, right? And so there is sort of this shift now that we're starting to see around at least black women being seen as important to the economy. And, you know, our position being acknowledged as something that's meaningful to have this country moves forward. but also, you know, how our job market moves forward, how our labor force moves forward, et cetera. And I think that that's actually a good thing

that we're starting to have this conversation out in the open. And I'm really glad that Marianne and I have been able to contribute towards that discourse as well. So it's great that people are talking about this issue more. What do you think has made people pay more attention to black women's economic realities and what it means for all of us? Why are we suddenly seeing headlines about this?

I think folks are just realizing, wait a minute, that's a problem. I would also say to that the speed at which Black would have exited the labor force is very concerning to a lot of people because at least to me and Marianna and I have had a conversation about this, another way to reframe this discussion is 300,000 breadwinners, 300,000 taxpayers, right? So we're not just talking about this random minority women group over there that's not really relevant to our overall. economy in our society, we're talking about people who contribute actual dollars to the GDP of this country. What I like to say is, you know, whether or not you think black women are human is quite literally irrelevant, because at the end of the day, the economy is still going to take my money. It sure will. It sure will. So I'm not, I'm not going to go ahead and benchmark on

your bigotry because your bigotry ignores reality. Yeah, I mean, to build on on some of those themes. I think the other dynamic that's happening is that our government is telling us that these issues are not important anymore. And the going after and banning certain words, pulling funding on certain kinds of studies, I think there is a societal pushback to that, which is to say, actually, I'm going to want to know more about those things. So when, you know, when women and racism and those kinds of words become targeted by the government and essentially effectively trying to silence any research or discussion on those things. What that can do is say, huh, why are they trying to do that and putting the idea into people's minds that maybe we should

know more about this? So I think there's that that's part of the story as well. And then, you know, we're living through a wild moment historically. I mean, the pandemic, we're not that many years out from the start of it. And it during that time with the she session and that black women were hit, you know, one of the hardest, the groups that experienced, you know, some of the biggest shocks and unemployment. And so that story is not that far off the radar either. So I think there's several different factors that creates the market and interest, if you will, in all of this. And it's frankly great to see. And it is a change. And you really spoke to something, I think, is super important, this idea of, well, you can, you know, go along with this administration, not see race.

I'm putting that in heavy scare quotes. Not think about things like gender, DEI, whatever, whatever you want to say. But it's like that Beyonce quote I always come back to you and you play me, you play yourself, right? And so if you buy into that, you're just going to end up being in the dark about what is happening economically in your own household, regardless of whether or not you're a black. black woman, regardless of how you feel about black women personally. First of all, we love Beyonce in this household. So thank you so much for quoting our good sis. I will say, too, you know, I'm seeing a lot of folks being like, you know, I hate D.EI.

I don't like diversity. I don't like. And the gag of the matter is maybe this country is becoming diverse whether you like it or not. Demographically, we are headed towards a more diverse country whether you like it or not. Gen Z was essentially half minority, half majority, right? Majority white. Gen Alpha is now majority minority. And the generation after that is going to be substantively majority, minority rather than just majority white. And I think that it's just irresponsible to not be considering other groups because

dealing with their inequalities makes you uncomfortable. It's irresponsible, right? Because at the end of the day, these are right. real people. These are real lives. Folks are trying to make a buck. Folks are trying to make a life. They're trying to make a living. And so it's in nobody's best interest if a segment of our population is not, you know, reap reaping the fruits of their labor or not benefiting from the economy that they're contributing towards, right? It builds resentment, but it also, quite frankly, it's kind of stupid, right?

So people are like, oh, like, I'm so sorry. People, I'm trying to be polite. I can't. So it's like people are trying to say like, oh, you know, why do we have to care about those black folks? Because those black folks make up 12% of your population. Let me put it like this. If 12% of your body wasn't working,

do you think you would be functioning right now? Absolutely not. All right then. And I rest my case. Well, and just that we won't have, you know, there's there's all these these forces that are coming together to shape, to shape the dynamics that Anna's laying out, but that we won't have enough people.

I mean, we already know that with the lower, you know, lower birth rates and things like that. And so we're going to need, not just that our own population has become much more diverse and especially in the younger, you know,

now I think we're gen alpha is on the scene. But we will need immigration. There is actually really no way that we'll be able to sustain ourselves economically in terms of innovation and just jobs that need to be filled. So, you know, dealing with questions around, you know, race and ethnicity and, you know, immigrant status and all those things. And it's not going away despite people maybe wanting it to go away. Both of you have referenced this idea of black women as these canaries and a coal mine when it's, comes to the health of our economy, we have talked about how black women and the health and well-being of black women is an indicator. Like, we talk about it when we talk about, like,

the health and well-being of the internet, how black women are treated on these spaces really does say a lot about the overall safety and health of these spaces. But when it comes to jobs and the economy, what does it look like in practice for black women to be these canaries in the coal mine of the health of the economy? So I'm a disciple of a wonderful framework that's been coined by Janelle Jones, one of my dearest friends in the economic space. And it's called Black Woman Best. Black Women Best basically argues that the best outcome for black women is a better outcome for everyone else.

I think the way that Janelle and Angela Hanks have put it along with Kendra Bozarth is if the economy is working for black women, it's more than likely working for everyone else. And I think the way to frame this is, you know, think about a Venn diagram. but each circle represents a different group within our society. Black women are dead center of the overlapping circles in our society, right? We're working class, we're middle class, sometimes we're poor, we're highly educated, we have student debt, we're breadwinners, from mothers, we're caregivers, right? We serve a very important economic role amongst women in our society, specifically, black women. women have the highest labor force participation rate, meaning that we work, quite frankly, the hardest

within our labor force, within our job market. And so when we think about policies, especially economic policies, dealing with sort of the job market, the labor force as it pertains to black women, black women are really telling you about a lot of people's different experiences in one fell swoop, right? Because if we are a dead center experience for, our current society, especially amongst those who are most marginalized and who face inequality, then what's happening to us is probably giving you insight to what's happening to the white guy who's also struggling with the job market, or what's happening to the Latina mother, who's also trying to make ends meet. And so it's important to pay attention to what's taking

place with us, as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak, because of these overlapping experiences that we encompass in our own lived experience and in our own identity. But I would also say too, that the Black Women Best Framework really argues that black women are the tie that lifts all boats. And so in the book that I wrote, the double tax, I basically say that what black women are currently experiencing right now is the double tax. This compounded cost of racism and sexism, which like I said before overlaps with all these other experiences that people are dealing with. But what I say is that if you don't address these individual costs, that these, Black women, women of color, are dealing with day to day.

They become societal costs down the line. And another way I would visualize this is what happens to Black women first in terms of the canary and the coal mine is almost like your neighbor's house catching on fire down the street. You see it's three houses down. You see the smoke. You smell the flames. And you saying, I'm not going to pay attention is like you going back into the house and being like, I want to go ahead and watch another episode of Love Island.

that's crazy. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Because at the end of the day, if that fire catches the next house next to you, guess whose house is about to go up to flames? It's about to be your house. So it's your best interest to ensure

that the whole neighborhood doesn't catch on fire because that house was on fire. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk, to David Letterman,

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Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action. with stories told by the people who live them.

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If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile,

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Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full

year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. Okay, so we've been using that phrase

Canary in the Coal Mine. When we talk about how harms often pack black women before they go unchecked and harm everyone. But it goes so much beyond that. Because it's not just that everyone should care about what happens to black women economically, because if we're struggling, everyone else is about to be struggling too. It's also that we are real people with real lives and real families and real stories who are also a really big part of our economy. There is no economy without black women. Black workers are an important demographic, just like every other demographic, because there are people in our society.

And so it's whether or not they're the canary in the coal mine, and it's sort of, and people actually, you know, reached out to me after the piece saying, you know, it's just, it's not only because they're the canary and the coal mine that we need to care, right? So it's, it's to Anna's point that we need to make sure that everyone's able to contribute in the economy in ways that are, you know, secure. and with dignified work and all of those things. But the other ways that they, this group, when historically marginalized groups often are the first to be hit,

black women being, you know, in recession after recession, really like they're the first hit and the hardest hit. And that's the other thing is we can look at, okay, whose unemployment rates are going up? How quickly are they going up? How long are they unemployed? Like, how hard is it to find another job? And it does provide like a window into likely what's about to happen to other groups as this kind of the economic squeeze spreads across the larger economy.

But the other thing I'd say I was thinking about this morning is worry. And I think worry is an interesting way of seeing into an economy where, you know, it's dynamic. It's hard to exactly know what's around the corner. But the survey that we found that showed that we write about in the article that showed, like, I mean, I was pretty shocked by the statistic, which is that there's been a massive increase in the percentage of black women who are saying that they're worried about or have said that economic conditions have worsened over the last year. So in 2024, it was 40%. It jumped to 87% in 2025, right? So that's massive. More black. women are worried right now about routine and rising bills than at the, you know, then at the early part of the pandemic. So to me, I think, you know, this is a group that, you know, it's kind of like, here we go again. And I feel like groups that have experienced this, they're, they're faster to see

what's happening because it's hitting them and more people in their community. They're connecting the dots and they're seeing things. And so as sort of an arbiter around like, what is happening and how bad could it be? Like, this is the group that I see. has seized things the clearest. So the worry was also made me, made me pause. I think that they're seeing it exactly as it is. The last time we saw an uptick in black women's worry was right at the very beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic. So you're saying that black women like me have not been this worried since the early days of the pandemic back in 2020? That seems bad to me. We were working on this post for a while and I was at a conference and I was in a hotel room and I was like looking at all this stuff and I it was just like, whoa.

I just, I like remember the moment that that kind of connected in my brain. I was like, oh yeah, no, this is, you know, I mean, it's always hard to know again because things change and the economy is so it can be fast moving. But I think that this group is telling us something that's really important and we need to pay attention to it because, they're almost always right. Right at the very beginning of COVID, I remember seeing Black women's unemployment shoot up to 17%. I think it was 16.8% according to Economic Policy Institute. And, you know, we also saw that the recovery

from the 2008 financial crisis was way slower than people were expecting, right? And so Black women were, quite frankly, the last group to recover from that crisis. And that, again, speaks to the experiences of other people who have overlapping experiences with black women that were also suffering post-2008. And so, you know, I think that Marion kind of hit the nail in the head.

It's not just that, you know, black women are kind of a warning signal for what's happening with our economy and beyond, but it's also that this is a part of our economy, right? So if a part of our economy is on fire, we need to put that fire out. And that means that we need to pay attention to those worries that they're expressing and that we also need to ensure that the policy solutions that are on the table are essentially accounting for that.

We've seen, you know, Congresswoman Ayanna-Kressley really call for that by specifically addressing the Federal Reserve Board Chair Jerome Powell. And I think that we need more congressional leaders, local leaders, and statewide leaders to do the same. I'm so glad you brought up that point, that it's not just about, you know, job numbers. It's also the important piece that Black women are often the first to get hit with a crisis and then the last to experience the recovery from that crisis, what does that look like and what is the impact been? Well, it doesn't look good, right?

I mean, it's really concerning. I mean, the other thing as, you know, I was doing the kind of work on this piece was just, you know, the point that black women were still losing jobs when the Great Recession was declared over. Like, how do you declare it? a recession over when people are still losing their jobs in sizable numbers. So yeah, and I think

what it does is it that it shows how hard that this group in particular gets hit, but then how little is done to actually kind of support the group that is struggling the most. And why is that? And then what the concern is over time is that certain groups are less left worse off and worse off and worse off, creating, you know, this kind of effect that makes it even harder for black women to get back to the other point about black women best. Like my understanding is that, you know, we were barely back to a point for black women where their employment was had returned to where it was pre-pandemic. Right. So now it's like this kind of churning happening. And it's very difficult for people to kind of get security, have any social mobility. And again, that has implications not just for those groups, but for our economy overall.

Black women hold a very important economic position in their communities and in society at large. So we know that quite a few mothers are breadwinners in their house. I don't know the number exactly. But black mothers, I believe 69% of them are the breadwinners of their household. So let's think about that for a second. They have people relying on them. Kids, grandparents, relatives, sometimes family friends. And so if you're losing income, because you're dealing with cuts to the federal

workforce, cuts to industries where you're disproportionately represented, it's not just hurting your pocketbook, it's hurting the economic future of your household. And I think we need to really contextualize what role black women, especially black mothers, are playing in their communities. They're upholding their communities. They're strengthening their communities through their dollars through what they're able to invest in with their dollars. And so what happens when those dollars disappear? Entire communities are impacted. It's so interesting.

I had an event yesterday in D.C. And someone I'd ask a question about, you know, how are black men affected by what's happening to black women? Well, black men are in community with black women. And oftentimes, black men are being supported in some way by black women. And so if black women lose, black men also lose. Black children also lose. But also black men, black women, all these different communities are in different places across our country.

They're not just, right, in a black neighborhood. They can be in white neighborhoods. They can be in mixed race neighborhoods. They're in different class levels. So we're not talking just about, you know, this single neighborhood. group in this vacuum and this silo, we're talking about 12%, 7% in some case for black women of the population. What happens when 7% of the population can't meaningfully contribute to our economy? The answer is simple. Our economy shrinks and those communities suffer. I mean,

there's simply no way forward without black women politically, economically, socially, family-wise, community-wise. We just, we don't get to where we're going without including us. Clock it. Exactly. That's right. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged.

One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined.

So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think Iheart. streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves,

their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions

everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi,

we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going from the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile,

that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Let's get right back into it. I was raised by an incredibly high-achieving black woman, and honestly, was a little intimidating. I always heard people call my mom a superwoman because she never seemed to drop a ball. She did everything and did it flawlessly. But what I never really saw as a kid was the cost of all that. Mom never got to rest. She never got to stumble. She never got to just be. Yes, black women are extraordinary, but we're not superheroes. And we shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have to do it all and prove our strength every single day just to survive.

Because no matter how determined or brilliant you are, you can't fix a broken system by yourself. And you can't truly thrive inside one either. I wanted to get more into this because, you know, I'm a black woman. I was raised by a black mom. I do think there is a cultural attitude that, oh, we'll figure it out. Black women will always figure it out. We'll do what needs to be done. But you can only do so much when you are up against these forces that are very clearly systemic

and institutional, right? You can't, you can't, like, black women are, we are strong, we are talented, all of that. But like we can genuinely only do so much up against forces like this that are so ingrained and so systemic. Yes. You can't individual your way out of, you know, systemic inequalities. I think it is a important like and and I think a lot of groups have these like cultural narratives of how to cope with really terrible stuff and really terrible times. And it is, it does, I think, foster resilience and hope. And those things are important. But it is not the answer to, you know, inadequate policy.

It is not the answer to, you know, the double tax, for example, of the, you know, the compounding nature, racism and sexism. And so I think, you know, for a long time now, for so long there's been calls for policies to address the real obstacles to, you know, black. women employment or mobility or opportunity. And it just, you know, it's, we have eras where it feels like there's a lot of progress. And then, you know, as soon as as some things start to shift, I feel like it comes back down hard again. And that is, again, reflective of how black women are in the eye, the economic storm because they are so, so marginalized. I love what Marianne said there. You can't individual your way through sort of these economic crises and inequality

we're at large. And that's always been true, actually, I feel. Right. Like just across time, movements of people, lots of people have pushed our society forward. And I feel like, you know, if I have to give like a very practical piece of advice to people who are listening, especially black women. if you have a union in your workplace, I need you to join it like yesterday.

Okay, so like, please join your union. You can join your union as a grad student. I know we love school. So if you want to go back to grad school, right, make sure you join your grad school union. It's extremely important that you're protected because what Marianne is saying is so true.

And also what you're saying too is speaking to, you know, our shared lived experience, But the reality is like the labor market, the job market, more specifically, fundamentally undervalues women's work and even more so undervalues black women's work, despite all of the sacrifices, all of the hours, all of the effort that we put through, right, or put forth. And so it is sometimes up to us collectively to fight for each other. because, you know, I hate to say it like this,

but no one's coming to save us. They never have, right? Oftentimes, when we throw ourselves a lifeline, we actually end up saving everybody else. And that's all to say that, you know, of course, other people need to be involved in the process of making sure that marginalized groups like black women are not falling behind. But can I be honest with you?

I don't really trust people. Sorry. I don't. I'm so sorry. Marianne knows this, right? So my dissertation, for the sake of the current climate, is talent development and acquisition. But what I really study for those listening is it make it really, really hard for your boss to be racist,

to be a baby. That's what I do. And the way I do it is, you know, I go by this saying, if you want to be a bigot in your bathtub, be my guest. If you want to bathe in the bubbles of bigotry, have a great time.

okay the moment you step outside i'm gonna be right there holding you accountable every time every time you open your door there's gonna be anna time about so so you're gonna be a bigger today not on my watch not on my watch take it back to the bathtub take it back to the bath exactly right take it back to the bathtub and so i think the way this is all to say we underestimate the power of accountability especially as a collaboration And this is not like cancel culture, but it is to say that as researchers, Marianne and I are researchers, as people who are just who have platforms like yourself, as folks who are just on the internet and just walking around, we have the power to say, no, actually we don't like that.

You know, and we saw this kind of unfold across the world in South Korea. When that guy was trying to take over it, they said, no. Now, they just happen to have a population that knows how to fight, right? But that being said, they said, no, we're not standing for this. And they literally took to the streets. And I think that we have that same spirit within us. And so if you don't think that the world should be unfair, unjust, and unequal, you lock arms with somebody who believes the same thing and you fight together.

That's how you move things forward. It's hard to put into words where we are right now. It's very scary. It's we've had times in the past that are seeming like they should have stayed in the past that it just feels like a new fascist era. But every day, like I keep thinking to myself, all we have is each other. That's right. That's really all we have.

because if the laws are changed or they're not, you know, they're not enforced or, you know, anyway, I just think all we have is each other. And it's, you know, collective action is so powerful. And that's really how to the degree we've been able to save ourselves, that's what that's been, is collective action, social movements. And I think it, you know, at a granular level, like what this looks like is, you know, when people lose their jobs, either because of the economic forces or because they're targeted or, you know, they posted something and, you know, they're fired for it. Like, I think it's being much more intentional about how you are going to have other people's backs. What does that look like, you know, that sort of mutual aid approach? But I just, it's, you know, we always have had moments of this, but this is, you know, we always have had moments of this, but this is,

on a scale that is, at least in my lifetime, I haven't experienced it. So anyway, I just think we have to be there for each other. And that's, you know, what does that mean? But I think it means like if you have a job to give someone, give it. If you can give money, give it. If you can be a source of support for someone, give it. But it's, you know, and this is going to be a multi-year. We're 100%.

Hopefully only a few. Yes. We're laughing to keep them crying. Yeah, that's right. Don't I know it? That's right. I want to double click on that idea because, so I live in Washington, D.C. And one of the big things here, as you both probably know, is the, just the massive scale of layoffs.

So, you know, layoffs in government. I think that good, stable government jobs have been the backbone of economic stability, at least where I live here in D.C., the Mid-Atlantic region. and we saw a lot of black women kind of career civil servants or like long-time government workers really being pushed out of these jobs. And I cannot help but get the idea that there was this sense that, oh, well, those black women didn't really deserve those jobs or they weren't unqualified or they were just taking a white man's spot. Is this?

And I just feel that the way that that is talked about is with such disregard. and it almost, it almost is like, it's like a sneeringness about these women who really have been doing so much to keep our government running, doing sort of thankless, probably unglamorous work. Is this something that you all have seen? Yes. So, you know, what I love about the double tax is that it really validates black women's experiences and women of color more broadly. But I think a lot of people will play in our face and say, you know, like, you're not really qualified for this, right?

or, oh, you know, that person only got in because they're a DEI higher or whatever. But we know from the data, right, is that black women experienced the highest turnover, the lowest promotion rates, and are more likely than any other group to be labeled as low performers in the workplace. This is work by Elizabeth Lino Sanaz Mabasri

and Nina Roussa. We know this. This is the data that's speaking. We also know that when it comes to promotions, this is the work of Marianne Cooper and the woman in the workplace report, I love citing this work in the book, that for every 100 men who were promoted

in the workplace in 2024, on average, 81 women were promoted. Black women, it was 54, the lowest promotion rate amongst all women groups. And so, you know, it's interesting. I look at these stats, and then I look at the black woman

I know. And I think about the ones that dot their eyes and cross their teeth, which is mainly most of us, quite frankly. Yes. Yes. Because this is the reality, there's very little room for error. Very little room for error. I know a little something about feeling like there's very little room for error because black women, especially black women in positions of power, are not really allowed to make any kinds of mistakes on the job. So we have to cross our eyes and dot our teas. It's just a reality of being black women in the workplace because we know that it comes with a ready-made attack that you're only there in the first place because you're a DEI hire.

And we also know that it won't take much for us to be on a shopping block. Wanted an example of a super qualified black woman being mischaracterized as unqualified? Just look at Lisa Cook. So currently what's happening in the news is you have very prominent black women being attacked by the administration in a number of different areas. But let me maybe talk about the one that I know the most. So Governor Lisa Cook is a name that is now a household name.

I love that for her. I hate the reason why it's a household name for right now, but, you know, her work is very brilliant. So Governor Lisa Cook is an economist, a macroeconomist, one of the best, I would argue, in the profession. And she currently occupies a role at the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. For those who are like, I don't know what that is.

Does that affect me? Yes, it does affect you. And what that is, essentially, is the group of economists that manage the group of economists that manage the economy, right? So these individuals ultimately make the call on interest rates, which I know folks have heard about. Because if you're going to get a loan to buy a house, you're looking at interest rates. If you're going to think about, you know, inflation, you're thinking about the grocery prices at your local grocery store. And so these are the individuals who are making those really important decisions that reverberate not just through our economy, but through the global economy, right? So it's not that what's happening here is just happening here.

It's actually relevant for the UK. It's relevant for what's happening in Ghana, right? Because everybody is looking to the U.S. about how our dollar is going to be affected, essentially, by the decisions that the Fed makes. So what's happening right now is this woman is being attacked, this black woman is being attacked. this black woman is being attacked. And a lot of people are saying, you know, she was unqualified. Unqualified for a position that the president of the United States appointed her for. Let's just state that fact, right?

The president, Biden, appointed her to this position. Let me tell you something about Dr. Cook. Probably the most qualified person to ever serve on the Fed ever. I'm not even kidding. This woman, I'm going to rattle off and then I'm going to make my larger point. Went to Oxford. Went to UC Berkeley. Went to Spelman, made history as their first Marshall Scholars.

Worked the White House. Worked to the Treasury. Worked on the Council of Economic Advisors. Was appointed to a presidential transition team to lead the very group she's now a part of, right? She's worked at four out of the 12 Federal Reserve Banks, not including her current position, which would make it five. So she's worked at at least a third of the regional banks that contribute to managing our economy. She has advised people in Asia and Africa.

I'm looking at the phone with shock because, guys, I'm confused. I'm looking for the lack of qualifications. I can't find anywhere. Here's my point. My point is black women. People look at us. They see our skin. They see our hair.

They see our brilliance. And they have to trick themselves into saying, there's no way that person can be all those things at once. A lot of these people who are saying, you know, black women are not qualified, what they're really saying is diversity is at odds with merit. There is no way that something can be meritocratic and you can also be black. There's no way. But what the data suggests is very clear.

The folks who get a leg up, if we're spilling the T, it's not us. We actually get a leg down. We get a leg down. Y'all don't hire us because we're black, but we still show up to the workplace anyway. Y'all don't admit us because we're black. But 43% of the white students at Harvard in 2019 were admitted off of nothing related to merit.

They were either related to family members who donated. They were either children of staff or faculty, or they were athletes, which we know from past scandals, that that's another way to get certain people into the door. This is not to say that even though the stack is built like a wall against us, nobody can take away the fact that we are objectively qualified. And that has always been true. I'll hear preaching a sermon.

Yeah, I mean, it is always interesting to notice when the meritocracy narrative is you know, unleashed and then when it's not. And it, my own kind of thing I often think about when this topic comes up is that with the women in the workplace report stuff. So this is a collaboration between McKinsey and Leanin.org. And we just had our 10th report last year. And it's, you know, each year there's tens of thousands of employees to do the survey and we have a lot of data.

And so it's great. It's so much data that we really can see some very interesting patterns. But what I have noticed over time is that we periodically have this question like, you know, do you want to be a top executive or, you know, senior leader or whatever? And what I've noticed from an aspirations standpoint is that black women have higher aspirations to senior leadership than white women. And black women's aspirations are similar to those of white men. But when you look at the pipeline, so you look at from entry law,

all the way up to the C-suite, what we see is white men are the group that becomes over-represented over time. So they start out, you know, at entry level, they're like something like a third of employees that by the C-suite, they're over half. And so, and then so for black women, it's sort of, it's, it's, they start out and then they're, they're underrepresented at each, each step up in that, in that pipeline. And so my larger point is like, we either, there's sort of two ways to look at that in terms of understanding it. You can either think that white men are smarter and work harder than everybody else or something else is going on.

And we have now, you know, many decades of social science research showing us that there's something else that's going on. And these are the biases that are in all these different kinds of people processes from hiring to performance evaluation to other things. But the idea that black women are not as competent as other groups of people is to what Anna was speaking about, there is no room for error because you have this higher bar and people are watching you. And so the women that do get through, and particularly the women of color that do rise up through an organization or a field or whatever, they're usually better than everybody else because they have to be. Clock it. Clock it.

So it's an interesting phenomenon that we can still, though, have such a strong narrative that somehow all of these people, in quotes, which usually is code for, you know, folks of color, particularly women of color, somehow are holding positions in which they are not qualified for, have not worked hard for, and just do not deserve. The data shows the opposite. I think, which is also why there are attempts to stop collecting the data. If you want to hide or ignore a social problem, you just stop collecting the data. I mean, you could also manipulate the data, which I'm also worried about. But in any case, this is the idea that somehow the black women holding jobs in federal government were there because they didn't deserve to be is just untrue. But they, again, because of those massive job cuts to the federal government, because black women held. a higher percentage of jobs there,

they got hit really hard in that. And we'll be still as that continues. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. But they're open to change. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Human me! I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

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That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source. the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

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And for more, Follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards.

If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeke. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me.

And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

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Let's get right back into it. If you encounter a black woman in a high-up leadership position, nobody gives us anything. So just know that she not only clearly deserves that position, probably, frankly, deserves to be higher. Like, nobody is more qualified than a black woman. woman in a leadership position because of how good we have to be to be led in the door at all. Do you think they would do like this idea that black women are being given positions they don't deserve but are not qualified for? It's just it's almost funny to me as someone who's been in the working world for most of my life. Yeah. It's it's well, you know, it's sort of like that

bitter. It's like funny, not funny. It's like it's just it it blows one's mind. Right. Because and the way that so many people actually still hold that belief is, it's, yeah, it's just, it's a lot. But that's how I feel. I mean, that's the whole thing about deep in the start of the administration, DEI and, you know, the pilots and stuff like that. And I'm like, no, it's like anytime you're looking at a pilot, surgeons, whatever, that, you know, again, because of the higher bar, because of the racism and sexism, because you've been continually discounted, you know, mistreated, all those things, the people who make it to the top in those roles, who are members of these historically marginalized groups, they are, by definition, the best of the best. So I'm actually always happy when my pilots are DEI folks. Yes.

And Anna, I wanted to ask you about this because I know the book, the double tax, what I love about it is that you're not just sort of laying out the facts and the figures of the situation. It's also conversations and stories. What have women that you talked to for the book told you? The women I've spoken to, well, let me be honest. I spoke to some women. We had a team of women who spoke to women. So, you know, who we spoke to, they confirmed everything that we're talking about right now.

Right. And I think that's kind of why I had to bring in the data. Because it's not like we haven't been having this conversation. This conversation has been long had for so many years. And I think, you know, when it comes to black women who are just trying to make it to the top, the title of this chapter is called The Broken Rung, which is inspired by the Women in the Workplace Report. What I argue is that, you know, women in general are climbing a ladder with rungs that are more further spaced apart. But for women of color, especially black women, those rungs are broken.

What do I mean by that? I mean, as we climb to the top, it costs us something. It always seems to cost us something. I can be very practical here and say, it might cost us our hair texture. You might not be able to rock as many braids, which is why I think, like, Deschanda Duckett is such an important form of representation right now.

She rocks braids in her Fortune 500 speaking circuits, right? Which I think is very, very important. But I think there's a lot of nuances that I want to introduce here, if we're really getting into it. We spoke to black women about, you know, what are the challenges that you deal with in the workplace? Marian might not be surprised by this, but some people listening might be.

You know what they said? They said, white women. Now, we're laughing because we know that's he. But I think it's important to bring this into the forefront because I think that, you know, we've been talking a lot about comparing black women to white men and how white women are absolutely overrepresented in the highest paid professions. By far, the data supports this. This is data from the Center from American Progress. I believe they make about at least 52%

of every single one of the top 10 highest paid professions as of 2019. But when we kind of dig into the actual workplace experience, a lot of times women are interacting with women. And this is where the double tax can also arise, where I say in the book, white women are navigating the patriarchy at work, right? You're still dealing with sexism. You're still dealing with gender inequality. This is why we need sort of the fortifying ERGs, if you will, the employee resource groups

to assist as we're moving through the workplace. But black women, well, black women deal with the patriarchy too. and they also deal with white women. And what I mean by this is that there are some white women in the workplace, according to black women that we spoke to, that shared that, you know, when they're just trying to do their job, their question, right? So they're getting the question of competence from white men,

and they're also getting the question of competence from white women. And what's interesting is that study I cited a while back with Elizabeth Lino's and co-authors, what they found was if there's a higher share of white women on your team as a black woman, you're more likely to leave the organization in addition to white men. Wow. So it's not just that white men are driving the turnover of black women in the workplace. It's also white women. And that's what our story is corroborated.

And I think this kind of puts us in a little bit of an awkward spot, right? because a lot of times when we're having these conversations about women in the workplace, we don't really talk about race. Have you noticed? I have noticed. I've noticed. We don't talk about race. And it's interesting because it's interesting derogatory.

Let me start there. And say that we're missing stories that are really important because what's happening to the black woman in the workplace at some point will filter through to the white woman. because who becomes expendable is relative. You get rid of all the black women. It's just going to be the next group that whoever is empowered thinks is expendable. And oftentimes that is white women. And so I think that it's incumbent on us

to have very honest conversations about the difference in experiences that we have as women. One of the big reasons why I love this book, why Marianne, by the way, was one of the experts all in the chapter that I'm talking about, so this is all not new to her, right? It's because it really forces us to reckon with whether or not being a woman is a monolithic experience.

And what this book basically says in bold print and into a megaphone is it's absolutely not the same experience across the board. And we need to have a lot more conversations about why. There is no single story of women. And we lose a lot by trying to just say if there's, you know, womenness and women that. It's like there are vast inequalities among women themselves by obviously by race and ethnicity, but also by social class and also by age, I think is another one that is not talked about enough. And so just, yes, we need to have a more, I think there's so much variation.

we need to have that be part of the conversation rather than thinking that there's just like one one experience because it's just it's it just overlooks, it ignores a lot of different stories that are unfolding and obscures, I think, the stories that are most important to tell. And it just speaks to the way that black women, our experiences can really get lost in,

if we're not having these intersectional conversations about what's going on, that really highlight, like, what it is that we're dealing with, what it is that we're up against, and how those are all playing out. Exactly. Yeah. So the piece kind of ends with you all saying that, you know,

these early warning signs are only useful if listened to. Let's not miss the one black women are sounding yet again. So what does it look like to actually hear and respond to this warning that you all are pointing out? I mean, I think one thing that a lot of black women of comments have said is like, we need to first and foremost even know that the warning exists. And that begins with this aggregating the data. So I think local and state leaders who have access to data about the labor market,

who are paying attention to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, dig into how different groups are being impacted by these job cuts, by what's happening with sort of these slashes to industries that are disproportionately affecting black women. I think it also means really thinking about why it matters that black women in particular stand to lose the most at this time. Black women are breadwinners, right? They're moms. They're individuals who are just trying to make a living and make a life, as I said before.

And I think using black women as a benchmark for your policymaking is extremely helpful because it says, okay, black moms are under pressure right now. let's go ahead and design a program locally or statewide to ensure that we can support moms that might be in similar positions, right? Or black young folks can't find jobs right now. Let's see if we can, as a university, maybe extend the career services beyond just, you know, you know, folks who are current students and maybe have a more robust programming to ensure that our alumni can transition smoothly into the job market. So it's saying you see that certain groups

are sending up a smoke signal. And I would even say they're running in the opposite direction of something that is headed their way. And you have a choice. Iva, you can run alongside. This is a running joke, right? Because every time you see a black person run,

you're supposed to run too. That's usually the case, right? But you see a black person running. You see a black man running in the other direction. And instead of being like, oh, she's a fool for running. The sun is out. Things are great. and you decide, I'm going to pull out my picnic blanket and read my book.

You should ask her, why are you running? What are you running from? Right? Because oftentimes she has a vantage point that you can't comprehend or maybe you don't have the perspective to see. And in this case, going with this metaphor, she's running from a tsunami that's coming her way. And so she's going to try her best to get to safety. But one thing you got to know, this is the double tax. Come on, metaphor, is that she's got to anchor on her.

her ankle, right? Something at weight on our ankle so she can't run fast enough away from it. But if you who has not that weight, not that pressure, not having to do with racism and sexism at that level are also heating the warning, you can go into town and tell everybody else, hey, we got to prepare her to this and da-da-da-this. And so by the time she gets there, she's not swept up in the storm. So I think that's the way I would say we meet this moment. we don't ignore, you know, what's taking place.

And we don't stop at just saying, man, they're a warning signal. And then we don't heat it. There's no use in hearing the alarm and not acting on the emergency. If there's an emergency, we need to do something about it. Otherwise, we all stand to lose much more. Yeah. I think that sums it all up. And if we ignore this, I think it will be back on our heels pretty quickly.

here. And if we get in front of it by actually listening to black women, we could prevent a lot of pain for everybody, but particularly for black women. So it's just too many times black women's experiences in the economy, but otherwise have been ignored. And it leaves, you know, almost everyone worse off as a result. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite.

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