There Are No Girls on the Internet - How extremists are taking over small town governments: Bedrock USA

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

In the fantastic new podcast BEDROCK: USA, reporter Laura Bliss uncovers how  extremists have been quietly building power at the local level, zeroing in on institutions like local school boards in small towns.    And while many of us are paying attention to national issues, it’s happening right under our noses.    LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE TO BEDROCK USA: https://www.bloomberg.com/bedrock-usa FOLLOW LAURA BLISS: https://twitter.com/mslaurablissSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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His name starts with the Donald. and ends with the Trump. But what about the extremist power grabs happening in our own backyards? Right-wing extremists have been quietly and successfully building power at the local level, zeroing it on institutions like local school boards and small towns. And while many of us are paying attention to national issues, it's happening right under our noses. I am the host of Red Rock USA, which is a new podcast from Bloomberg City Lab and IHeart Radio. And I'm also a reporter on staff at Blue Book City Live. In her podcast, Bedrock USA, reporter Laura Bliss uncovers how the far right is making

inroads and local government. So how did you become someone who covers the way that things like extremist ideology and conspiracy theories can really impact small town life? Yeah, so I came into this from a somewhat sideways path. I have been covering cities and kind of local communities for most of my journalism career. And so because I report on that local level on issues like housing and transportation and kind of local policy issues, I really couldn't ignore the way things like Q&N and other forms of anti-democratic rhetoric were starting to creep into my beat.

and this became especially true, you know, during the pandemic and I think really became hard to ignore, if possible to ignore, to ignore after January 6th and the capital instruction. I think we've all seen this at this point, this explosion in stories about school board battles, you know, waged by Q and nonbelievers, oathkeepers running for city councils, and kind of the bread and butter issues that local governments work. on stuff like the, you know, development proposals for news housing projects or light rail stations. Like even, even issues like these started to become, not every case, but in a sort of surprising number of communities I was reporting in kind of tinged by our just hyper-partisan and kind of an increasingly extreme political environment. And so this podcast, Bedrock USA, which is really about how far-right ideologies are reshaping local governments and kind of what local communities are doing about it really came out of that. But I also add too that I think it's

just really fascinating to look at the local level or to sort of use the local level as a lens into the broader issues that I'm talking about because, you know, when you are reporting in a small town, I mean, you're talking to people who are literally neighbors with each other. You know, and if you're kind of like a anti-government conspiracy theorist in a small town, and, you know, you just profoundly mistrust the person who is on your city council or you're, you know, railing against a school board member. I mean, that can mean going against your own neighbor or just sort of believing that your own neighbor is fundamentally, you know, unworthy of your trust. and so that just provides some really interesting kind of human drama that I am attracted to as a reporter and I guess someone who likes to tell stories.

And finally, too, I mean, this kind of like hyper-partisanship that we're talking about and, you know, ideologies that are infused with misinformation and conspiracy theories, it's just really a sharp contrast with the way, local government theoretically is supposed to work. Normally we think of local government as the institution that takes care of our least partisan issues, right? I mean, these are supposed to be the people working on keeping our streets paved and making sure the trash gets picked up and, you know, just the sort of bread and better issues that you think would be immune to, you know, ideologies like QAnon. And so just all of these kinds of these kinds of kind of dynamics at play just really drew me into this story. Think about the mundane everyday issues that come up in your community,

where the bus stops are, how schools are funded, what resources are available for what. Now imagine that a well-organized coalition of extremists could hijack the conversation around those issues and stymie any meaningful progress on them. While reporting for Bedrock USA, Laura found that the issues that you might have once thought about as not really that polarizing would be able to be. become hotbeds of extremist conspiracy theory. Yeah, I'm wondering, in your reporting, have you seen that we're reaching a place where these resources and these things in local government that you would think of as being nonpartisan are just also deeply politicized?

Yes, absolutely. And I mean, I think that's really one of the most interesting things about reporting on these issues in a local kind of government context is that we're seeing issues that are traditionally not partisan at all, or at least not partisan in the kind of traditional left versus right sides, really become politically charged by politicians or political groups, and taking on, you know, really kind of high political stakes in ways that we might not previously expect. And so, like, for example, one of the stories that we reported on

in the Bedrock USA podcast, which I really hope people listening to this show, check out, is a story of how, a proposal to build an opioid addiction treatment clinic in a small town called Squim, which is in Washington State, really drove the town apart into two camps. One side was opposed, and the other side was more supportive. And, you know, it's not totally unexpected that something like an opioid addiction treatment clinic would be controversial or have supporters or opponents. But what was really unusual is that, especially after the pandemic hit, one Facebook group in particular, it was against the clinic, very quickly aligned itself in support of various

far-right ideologies around stuff like masking and vaccines, as well as lies around the 2020 election results. And so I think what's so fascinating and scary about that dynamic is that it not only reflects kind of a broader or political landscape where everything is partisan, and everything is kind of a left versus right, you know, cultural issue. But also that this particular local opposition group on Facebook actually became a pathway for radicalizing some people. There were people in this town who were initially drawn into this group

to discuss the local clinic issue and discuss, you know, why they were so opposed to it. But then by virtue of being in this online space, were exposed to more kind of radical ideas. And I'm not just talking about masking and vaccines, that that's definitely worthy of, you know, our conversation. But, you know, by 2021, I was looking at this Facebook group and seeing people, you know, post in support of stuff like, or posting in support of sovereign citizen groups, which sovereign citizen, it's kind of a ideology that falsely promotes the idea that people living in the United States can be exempt from U.S. law. And this is kind of a movement that's been linked over many decades to numerous acts of political violence. You know, you mentioned that someone being opposed to an opioid treatment clinic in their small town, that's not terribly surprising.

I can imagine somebody having that kind of response. But then on an online platform like Facebook, that kind of gets mixed in with anti-mask stuff, you know, maybe QAnon stuff, election denying stuff. I guess my question would be, how do these things all get kind of wrapped up? You would think that these things would be very disparate, but they all sort of travel in circles. And so like any one conspiracy theory kind of comes along with multiple harmful conspiracy theories, it seems like. Yeah. I mean, I think a big, just part of the dynamic you're kind of asking about is, you know, just boils down to the people who are posting. right? I mean, we saw in this particular example in SQUAM, Washington, this opposition group was led by a woman who had actually tried to run for a state legislator position previously. And she was Republican and sort of carried what became, you know, increasingly pretty extreme views on stuff like masking and vaccines. And also the 2020 election And so her, as well as others in the group, you know, use that space as a forum to post about these other topics and post misinformation and, you know, links to YouTube videos that spread lies about stuff like the 2020 election or Anthony Fauci and, you know, these kinds of hot button, you know, topics that became major drivers of misinformation and including QAnon, right, which we're seeing, you know, has not died.

I've just seen in the last couple of weeks, you know, Donald Trump increasingly embracing, you know, Q&OND slogans and kind of Q&N related memes, even as a number of really disturbing acts of violence linked to Q&N are also going up. So anyways, to answer your question directly, I think it really mostly boils down to, you know, just the sort of then diagram of people in these kinds of forums. you're going to have people who are already sort of holding more extreme views and already are kind of linked to these networks related to conspiracy theories and sort of misinformation networks. And then they're just exposing a wider kind of group of people to those ideas who may have entered that space for different reasons to begin with, right? Yeah, actually, I talked to one researcher who had studied this particular Facebook group that I'm talking about, Squam, Washington. And he was actually able to find an example of one Facebook, or one group member, I should say, who, you know, literally moved from, you know, in the time before she joined this Facebook group, from being like a Bernie Sanders supporter to, you know, posting in support of the sovereign citizen movement, which is this very far right. kind of ideological movement, like I mentioned, that promotes this very dangerous and false idea that, you know, you can, you can, you can be sort of exempt from U.S. law if you apply for

this basically fake set of documents. Again, and this is something that's also been linked to actual political violence. So this is a, so it's just a really scary example of how local issue that traditionally we're sort of outside this normal partisan dynamic are now becoming avenues for radicalization. The normal avenues of talking about what's happening in your community become open. They're being exploited and manipulated in a way that you can't even have the conversation about your school board or your potholes or your garbage because those conversations are being so easily manipulated by bad actors. Yeah, and I think actually that touches on a really

important point and another, I think, important or another reason that paying attention to these kind of like local forums is so important, which is that normally we don't pay attention to them, right? Like local government is the level of government that on average, you know, we know sort of least about, which is ironic because in some ways it has the most direct-in-pirect. pack. Like we all care if our trash gets picked up. You know, we all care about the potholes on our roads and our local school systems, but, you know, we just sort of take for granted that those things are just going to happen on their own. And so we tend to pay a lot more attention to, you know, national politics or even sort of our state level, you know, political issues than we do to

what's happening in our city council meetings and school board meetings, you know, until now, because these issues are becoming so much more kind of inflamed and extreme. But I think he sort of hit an important point, which is that, you know, folks who are exploiting, as you say, that level of ignorance, you know, in which most of us exist around our local government, you know, people are aware of that. And so they're, you know, getting into these beatings where there isn't necessarily a lot of scrutiny or a lot of awareness in the general public. and, you know, taking advantage.

Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business.

Think IHart. streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaders to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action

with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them

going from the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladecki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile

that means the world to me and that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level at this scale like being able to fail in front of the entire world like I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's

about showing up even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. At our back. It's easy to stay red in on issues at the federal level.

You know, who's running for president and what they stand for. But if we're being real, I'd be willing to bet that a lot fewer of us are as dialed in to issues happening at the local level. And we probably should be, because from county clerk's offices to school boards, these issues can really have profound impact on our day-to-day lives. Laura says that extremists exploit our tendency to not always

be so invested in local politics. And when we aren't paying close attention, they can swoop in and take over. Yeah, that's exactly what I was excited to talk to you about next. So can you describe what you've seen in your reporting about how folks have been able to really amass political power at the local level, really in kind of a sleeper way. Before you know it, you're like, oh, folks have really done a successful paragraph of our local government? Absolutely. So Bedrock USA really tells the story of two communities in particular. One of them I've already mentioned, it's Squibb, Washington, and the other is Shasta County, California, where the story is really ongoing, but played out in a pretty dramatic fashion, especially last year in 2021. And Shasta County is a

very conservative pocket in Northern California. It's a few hours north of Sacramento. It's always been a pretty deep red bastion. But during the pandemic, we really saw how, you know, folks on the further right end of the spectrum really took advantage of some of the dynamics we've been talking about, you know, just the fact that people don't normally show up to their, you know, county board of supervisors meetings to sort of hear what's going on, but some people with pretty extreme political views did.

And so just to sort of illustrate that a little bit more, a group of far-right, sort of ideologically aligned folks, including militia leaders, you know, State of Jefferson supporters. State of Jefferson

is a movement to have a chunk of California, and a chunk of organ basically secede, it's a kind of conservative secession fantasy movement, you know, as well as anti-maskers and just kind of all around disaffected, you know, conservatives who were sort of radicalized by the pandemic. All of these folks banned together, you know,

during COVID to recall a conservative Shasta County supervisor. So the county supervisors and justice, it's basically a city council, but at the county level. And by successfully recalling this person, which they did, and install kind of one of their own, they were actually able to shift the balance of power in this conservative county so that now, you know, the board is controlled by a majority of pretty far-right individuals and, you know, who have done things like, you know, early and earlier this year, you know, repeal the local state of emergency around the pandemic and insist that, you know, county board meetings be conducted in person rather than taking place over Zoom to, you know, mitigate, you know, pandemic risk.

And also, you know, more worryingly, fire the county public health director, excuse me, the county public health officer. And there's actually been this sort of alarming exodus of very high profile county officials who oversee the Department of Health and the county CEO, I believe. But there's been this really kind of worrying exodus of high-ranking county officials who are experts in their field, you know, and who really are responsible for just keeping this level of government running in the kind of like day-to-day functioning way that most of us would expect. And so this is a movement that's really alarmed quite a number of residents in Shasta County. But again, in some ways, as you've been saying, like it is a reflection of just the overall low level of engagement that, you know,

most of us have when it comes to what's happening in our own backyards. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad that you're spotlighting this because I do think that it's just really easy. to get super fired up about who's in the White House, who's in the Senate, who's in Congress. And I mean, I think we're all, I'm guilty of it. I just think it's like very easy to focus on these bigger conversations and elections and races and really overlook what's happening on your own block and your own neighborhood and on your own street. And so, like, one, I'm really glad that you're spotlighting that because it is really

important. And I guess my second question would be, you know, should we take the reporting that you've seen in Bedrock USA as kind of a wake-up call as to why it's so critically important that we stay engaged and checked in at the local level as well as the national and federal level? Absolutely. I mean, I hope that is one of the sort of take-home messages. And I will say that, you know, local officials who are, you know, working in some of these communities where we reported would even say that, you know, silver lining might be too optimistic of a, of a first raise, but, you know, that they are glad, you know, that there is more attention being paid to the work that they do, you know, as a result of these movements that are, you know, otherwise extremely harmful, right? I mean, these are movements, again, that are fueled by misinformation about stuff like, you know, from conspiracy theories like Q and on to election denialism and other just sort of misinformation systems. But that they are

glad that, you know, people are showing up to, let's say, the elections office in Shasta County. My producer and I were there in Chaston County in June to report on the primary election that took place there. And there was a group of folks, you know, who were associated with the recall movement and who held pretty far-right views taking issue with the results of the election. And that is extremely damaging. And at the same time, it meant that the county elections office had more people paying attention to the way the system runs. I think what it really comes down to is the fact that we need more people who are paying attention in good faith, right, who are paying attention to the system and making sure things are going well, you know,

with the belief that democracy should continue. Because unfortunately, you know, many of these groups are looking at what they're. happening with a, you know, pre-determined belief that what's happening cannot be trusted. And so, you know, all the observation in the world, you know, are unlikely, is unlikely to sort of stem that, that disbelief, unfortunately. I really saw that deeply, just just the profound, profound level of mistrust in some of these people who have imbibed the kind of electionized that were so prominent in 2020. But anyways, this is all just to say, You know, we do need more people paying attention in good faith.

Because if there's anything I learned from this podcast and, you know, going deep into the, you know, halls of local government and the people who make these, you know, small bureaucracies work is that democracy really comes down to people. And it's about the trust that we place in each other. And on the local level that literally comes down to trusting your neighbors and trusting to people, you know, you go to the grocery store. with and trust in the people you hand your ballot to. And we do need that trust to work. And we also need oversight and people paying attention to ensure that, you know, that trust is earned. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to ask you about that. What role, I mean, it sounds like mistrust and the lack of trust in general is really the thing that is the problem here, right? Like, what role do you think that a lack of trust in our institutions has played in all of this?

Oh, it's profound. I mean, it's definitely profound, and it's, it's not new, clearly. I mean, you know, mistrust in government, particularly at the, at the federal national level, you know, goes back, you know, decades, if not to the founding of our country in some ways. But I think the sort of level of mistrust in local government is actually somewhat new, because for the most part, you know, people tend to place more trust in the sort of people and institutions that are closest to them. But we are starting to see that really kind of degrade. And I think the pandemic played a just a huge role in kind of accelerating this crisis of mistrust, you know, because of how, you know, our local leaders and state leaders and national leaders

handled the crisis. And because of, you know, the way online platforms, readily spread and kind of supply misinformation and conspiracy theories to sort of give people, you know, alternate explanations for what was happening. And that's a huge problem. And it's not just in government. It's also in science. It's also in media. And I don't see that profound distrust going away. And, you know, this is a huge problem that every community needs to be confronting on some level. And so, you know, again, I'm kind of hopeful that there are, you know, folks at every level who are, you know, trying to get engaged in that kind of good faith way.

But, yeah, this is something we're going to just continue to see. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. week my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group

perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts

than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people.

people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout, Kate Martin and Rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks

like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs, Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladecki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Let's get right back into it. So I want to switch gears a little bit,

you know, so much of what you have covered on the podcast has been pretty, dark, but one of the sort of silver linings is that people didn't take this sitting down in these small communities. They actually organized to resist the takeovers of their communities by these extremist factions. Can you talk a bit about how they were able to do that? Absolutely. So, yeah, the community there is in Squib, Washington. And so this was where, okay, we were talking about earlier. there was this opioid addiction treatment clinic that was proposed. It really drove the town in two and the opposition group became this kind of like forum for almost radicalization. And part of the story too is that, you know, while people were kind of asleep at the wheel, so to speak,

or not paying a whole lot of attention to what was happening on their city council in this small town. A guy was elected to city council and eventually became mayor. who was a professed supporter of QAnon at that time, who actually was posting with the Q&ON slogan, where we go when we go all on his Facebook page, and who eventually would go on the local radio station in the small town and kind of advertise Q&N and encourage people to go, you know, look up YouTube videos that promoted this dangerous conspiracy theory.

And so when that happened, it kind of in all around the same time as the big controversy around the clinic hit, you know, people really freaked out. I mean, not everybody, right, because the mayor did have the supporters for sure, particularly in this Facebook group. But there was a group of citizens in this community that came together and said, you know, this is where we draw the line, basically. And so they sort of set their eye on the upcoming city council election. and they formed a group, which they called the Good Governance League, and it was a bipartisan effort. There were folks on both sides, political aisle involved, including other city council members, one of them was a Republican. And they campaign together to say, you know, we, you know, the people of Squim, you know, care that our government runs on facts.

They banded together and say, what we care most about is that our city council, runs on facts and that, you know, our city council members are not, that our city council members are paying attention to the issues that affect us and not to, you know, conspiracy theories that are prominent at the national level or, you know, these kinds of national level political trends that are reshaping our country. We really want, you know, our local leaders to focus on local issues. And so that was really the message they campaigned on and they endorse a number of candidates for city council. And I have to say they didn't really do anything particularly novel, right? I think what was so striking about this story is that, you know, they just deployed the tactics that

organizers have been using for decades, you know, if not forever. They went door to door. They, you know, talked to their fellow neighbors about what was going on in their town. They just kind of spread awareness about, you know, what the mayor was all about, what he was saying. I know, they sent emails, they wrote postcards, just these kind of traditional methods and they were successful. And so I do

think that that is a encouraging story about, you know, just pretty regular people, you know, drawing the line in the sand around the way they wanted their government to work and kind of what that meant for the local democracy and they did something

about it. But I do think that, you know, just looking at some of the tactics and methods they use. I think that could definitely be repeated in other communities. Well, yeah. I mean, that brings me to one of my last questions for you. Given all that you've reported on with Bedrock USA, are you hopeful for the state of democracy, for the state of politics and the way that decisions get made and progress gets made in small towns? Am I hopeful? It's a tough question. You know, I think, I think we, we're We are in a really scary spot right now.

I mean, we have a significant proportion of our voting public, you know, who still question the 2020 election results, you know, who are likely to continue to question the results of elections moving forward based on beliefs that are just not rooted in fact, right? I mean, we saw this in 2020. We are seeing it in local elections moving forward, and we're very likely to see it during midterms. And that's really scary, you know, at the national level and also on the local level, because, again, like,

a lot of us just aren't paying attention. You know, local media outlets have been drained of their resources to cover a lot of local elections. And so there just isn't going to be, you know, as much coverage as there should be of, you know, election deniers harassing election workers, for example, or, you know, pressuring local officials to, you know, perform unnecessary investigations or even throughout election results potentially. I mean, it's all things that, you know, we saw play out to sort of different degrees in the 2020 election.

I think we are going to continue to see that happen. And so, you know, where that leads, when you have a populace that does not accept the results of a sound election is, I don't know if you can call it a democracy anymore, right? So that is really scary. I think that, you know, based on my reporting, you know, where I put my hope, I suppose, is, you know, in groups of people who do, you know, decide to come together around a common belief and even, you know, faith that the system can work and that it should work and that it can be better. And also just in some of the local officials I met who, you know, are continuing to do their jobs because they believe so wholeheartedly in that system, that they're just continuing to do their jobs under really, really challenging circumstances, you know, in communities. like Shaston County, where there are just a lot of people who do not trust the work that,

you know, election workers do or some of the, you know, county officials who, you know, run the health department, for example. And they're harassed, you know, and they're, they receive threats and they are, you know, doing their jobs in the face of just really serious threats to the work that they do. But they're persevering. And, you know, I'll say that this kind of environment is really discouraging to a lot of people who might otherwise consider that kind of work, but it's just, it's so important. They're literally keeping our kind of system running. So some of those folks give me hope, but I think the overall picture is definitely scary. Oh, I mean, I find this time and time again, it's the people that make, the only thing that gives me

any hope in covering any of this is the people. Like the people working together coming together will always be more powerful than the dark forces I choose to believe. And so that's the only way I have any hope about any of this at all. Yep, yep. I mean, and I think it's kind of, it's like, it's obvious, but it's also kind of profound, right? I mean, as I tried to sort of say this earlier and probably was pretty inarticulate, but like, that is really the, like, not so profound but kind of profound conclusion that came to in this whole reporting project is just that, you know, we think of democracy as like this abstract institution and, you know, this, this, like, hallowed set of processes and kind of rituals that it's just supposed to happen. And, and, and, you know,

democracy sounds like it's a building or something or like a, like a physical structure, but it's people. I mean, literally it comes down to the people who are, counting the ballots and and running, you know, polling locations and, you know, literally tabulating votes at the end of the day, right? And of course, it's also the people who we elect to represent us, but it is people. It really does come down to people and whether, you know, we can and do trust those we have put in positions that, you know, ought to be worthy of our trust. But I completely agree with you. I think we have to be looking to each other because that's all we have. It's all we have is one another to sort of make the system work.

Where can people find the podcast and keep up with all your work? Absolutely. So Bedrock USA is available anywhere you listen to podcasts. You find it on Apple podcasts, Spotify, on iPartRadio or on Bloomberg.com. And you can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Ms. Laura Bliss. Got a story about an interesting thing. in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive

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