There Are No Girls on the Internet - If a Congressman is racist and nobody reports on it, does it make a sound?

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

After Georgia Congressman Mike Collins tweeted in support of frat guys harassing a Black woman with racist tropes… nothing really happened. Popular Information's Judd Legum explores why we need better stories about our democracy, the intersection of media complacency with corporate money, and what's at stake. UPDATE: Congressman Collins feels the heat: https://popular.info/p/update-congressman-collins-feelsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. As much as I wish I could kind of ignore it, yes, election season is upon us. We're about 130 days out from the November election. And as it approaches, I'm actually really wondering whether or not we can expect that same kind of empty, horse race, political coverage that doesn't so much inform as it does treatise. elections as a game, not something, you know, foundational to our democracy with big consequences for all of us. It's one of the reasons why I read Popular Information, a newsletter about democracy for people who give a damn. And as all of my election-related anxieties are coming to a head,

I sat down with Popular Information's founder, Judd Legum, about where we're at and where we might be heading. So Popular Information I have to tell you is one of my favorite newsletters. The About page, says, you are not a spectator and democracy is not a game, but so much of what is written about politics treats you that way. What do you mean by that? I just think so much of the coverage of politics is premised on the idea that citizens are sort of mini political strategists. And you should think about how, in sort of a meta way, of how your views might influence someone else's views and the implications of that rather than thinking about what are the things that are important to me what do I believe in what do I want to see the future like and what's

the best path you know we we've we've abstracted politics so much that I think we've forgotten what it's really about at its core that that's that's my that's my fundamental belief that's such a good point, I agree, but it's so sad. And I think you're right that I see that in the way stories are reported or covered over and over again, that sometimes when I read them, I think, like, what are the values here? Like, like, I do feel that we've sort of lost our way a little bit in terms of how we are trying to engage people in these larger stories about our democracy and our country and our world and what their role is at this, right? Like, I'm just not invested in these conversations about democracy and things that are so important in these kind of

gamified ways that are like, well, this team said that. And so your reactive response should be this. Like, I feel like it really minimizes what's at stake here. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just for example, like one of the big topics in the news is the Trump's criminal trial, which has been going on for a few weeks now. And so much of the coverage is focused on, well, how are his supporters feeling about it? How is it impacting the presidential race? And is it, if it's not impacting the presidential race, maybe it was a mistake to bring the case. But there's very, there's much less coverage on what is the fundamental conduct at issue. And should that be legal or illegal? And if it's illegal, should it be punished?

That's the core question and the politics of it are something that we're going to find out about in November. But we spend a lot of the time, like so much of our time between now and November will be spent just trying to predict exactly what's going to happen in November. And most of that will just be wrong and wasted time. I mean, that's what we do before every election. It's so true. I wonder, have you ever, have you seen like polls that indicate that a lot of citizens aren't really motivated by things like, oh, protecting democracy or fostering democracy that I wonder if we've sort of got, if we're sort of like giving people what they want in a kind of way that's like, oh, people don't care about, you know, was this against the law or not, or is this threatening democracy or not? They care about something else. And so these stories that are reported in this particular kind of way, are sort of giving them that thing that they want, which is like they don't care about things like protecting democracy necessarily.

That's not a motivating thing for them. I think that it is true that sometimes people, and I think the polling reflects this, are less concerned about issues, whether that's democracy or our precise policy on taxes, or other important issues than they are on some of these more kind of cultural or personal questions. But I also think that it's too much of a cop-out to just say, well, people are only interested in these things, and we're just giving people what they want.

Because what people are interested in and what they think is important is dependent on what they're reading and consuming and learning about and how they're gaining and understanding of what's important and what's not important. So for me, as somebody who writes and is dependent on people thinking they are interested in what I am writing about, I am of course interested in what people are interested in it and what they think. But I'm also, equally interested in, is there a topic that I know people are probably not yet interested in, but can I figure out a way to explain it and to present it to them in a way which they will become interested in it? And I think that from the perspective of the media is an important role

that gets overlooked too much about the process of shaping what is important and what isn't important. Not in a hectoried way, but can you present a story that people might not have been aware of it? If they are aware of it, they would be interested in if you tell it in a compelling way. And I think that you do this in a very particular kind of way because there are so many stories that come across my news feed or whatever about wrongdoing, like XYZ person, public figure, elected official, whatever, has done something bad or wrong. And something that an angle that you take that I really appreciate that is, okay, well, this was a bad thing, whatever, whatever. But what are the, let's peel back the layers. What are the corporate forces

that are supporting this person? And are they aligning with their stated values or pledges or whatever that are out in the world? Like, like, who are actually the forces that are propping up this person to do X, Y, Z, bad thing? That's something that I think that you do better than almost anybody out there. And I wonder, how did you come to sort of seeing stories in this way and taking that framing? Well, for better or for worse, I've been looking through campaign finance reports since I was, I think, 18 years old. I'm 45 now. So I've been doing it for a long time. How did this become something that you were into?

Well, I just, one of my first jobs in politics was in the research department at the, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. There were about five or six of us there, and we had one computer that we shared, but you could print out, you know, one of the things you would do at that time was create a book. And by, they still talk about books in the research world, but they're no longer physical books. But at that time, it was a physical three whole punch book. And, you know, one of you, what you would do is just print out all the campaign finance filings for that candidate and their opponent. And, you know, things have changed quite a bit. But the role of corporate money over those decades has become more and more important.

And I also think that there are, especially the way in which we've sliced and diced some of these congressional districts and just the way demographics have shaken out, there's people who are in districts where they're basically never going to lose. They're not competitive. There's not that many competitive districts these days. There's not that many competitive states these days in the presidential election. But everyone or almost everyone to one extent or another requires kind of the buy-in or relies on the buy-in from major corporations and other people who do have a desire and a need to be viewed as. as taking broadly acceptable positions on social issues for the rest of the world. And so that's a way to bring a level or some semblance of accountability to those politicians.

Or it should be. It's not always. But at the very least, I think the first step is understanding, you know, yes, there's this kind of. Congressman Mike Collins, who is saying extremely racist things online and praising people who are engaged in the ugliest, most disgusting racial stereotypes you could possibly imagine. If you were trying to come up with the worst one you could, you wouldn't go too far away. But he's not just existing in a vacuum. he's backed by these, you know, major corporations, American Airlines, Delta, all sorts of folks who not only would you think reject this, but really present themselves on a corporate level as being champions of, you know, equality and treating people fairly and equally.

And in both their business as far as attracting customers and also their recruiting, you know, bringing in the very. best employees have a real interest in being viewed as somebody who welcomes, you know, all sorts of people, regardless of their race or anything else. And so, yeah, you can kind of, I think it's useful for at least at the start for people to know what's going on, where the money is flowing, and how that assists some of these more radical forces that have taken a pretty prominent role, you know, in our political system. So I got in touch with Judd after a pretty upsetting moment earlier this summer. You might remember it.

On the campus of University of Mississippi, sometimes called Ole Miss, a group of 30 to 60 pro-Palestinian student protesters gather. The group is multiracial. And a group of counter-protesters who are mostly white men, two of whom are wearing red, white, and blue American flag overalls with no shirt, are taunting the pro-Palestrian. Palestinian students. The white students encircle a black woman. It's journalism student Jalen R. Smith. They make monkey noises at her and scratch their underarms while chanting like an ape. One calls her Lizzo. They shout, lock her up. It's heartbreaking. And as a black woman who

came of age protesting for lefty causes like ending the war in Iraq in the heart of the deep south, North Carolina, I was Jalen. And those white southern frat boys taunting and jeering at her. Well, I knew them too. It's like it's been 20 years and nothing has changed. And that video actually hearkened back even further for me to the days of civil rights sit-ins and bus boycotts across the South. Two male students were kicked out of their frat by Delta Theta, and a lot of people rightly denounce their behavior. But not Georgia Congressman, Republican Mike Collins. Mike Collins tweeted the video of the protest. making monkey noises at Jalen, saying,

Ole Miss is taken care of business, that business being pretty obvious racism toward a black woman. He tweeted that in May, and it is still up today. And Collins didn't really even seem that bent out of shape when he got pushback. When people called out the fact that the young men in the video that he reposted, glorifying their behavior, are being blatantly racist toward a black woman,

Collins put out kind of a tepid statement. saying, quote, frankly, I did not believe that to be the focal point of the video shared at the time, but I recognize that there certainly seems to be some potentially inappropriate behavior that none of us should see to glorify. And that was kind of it. Collins is not in danger of losing his seat in Congress anytime soon. And it was like, that was that. You know, with little chance of any kind of electoral repercussions, it kind of felt like the media just moved on and didn't know what else they could possibly say about this incident.

except Judd. For popular information, Judd looked into what corporations and businesses donate money to Collins' campaign. And he found that a lot of them had made these big, flashy public pledges not to use their money to fund divisive candidates. And a lot of them talked big, public, flashy games about things like diversity and inclusion. So would they be pulling their funding from Congressman Collins? Not so much. So talking about Collins, you know, I have to say like the videos and the imagery coming out of Old Miss, it hit me on a really kind of visceral level. Like I was thinking like, oh, we're going to see these images in history books or something. Like that's the level that I felt those, those images and videos elicited. I don't, well, you know, when, you know, already they're put out by this guy who himself has written for like white supremacist, media outlets. Then Mike Collins is like, oh, old miss is really taking care of business.

What was the reaction after Collins tweeted this? Well, I mean, I guess it depends on in which, in what group. I think that there were some people who were online, who were certainly outraged by it. You said, you said you, but you think that you might see these images in a history book. It was almost as if we were watching a history books. Like you felt like you were watching something from the 50s or something like that. Like, it's hard to believe that this is a, this is a scene of, of life in a college campus of any sort in 2024, as opposed to, you know, 1944. But I think, and again, this goes back to where we started the discussion of how so much political coverage is driven

by what might be the implication in a future election. So the fact that Mike Collins has a very red seat and oftentimes I think doesn't even attract a, I mean, he's in his first term, but that particular district doesn't always even attract a democratic challenger because people don't want to waste their time. Then, therefore, we're not really going to spend time scrutinize it. My view is, no, this is something that's, you know, outrageous and let's look into it. And let's look into who this guy is and who's backing him because the implications are much greater than one congressional seat. Meaning if this becomes, you know, an acceptable level of discourse, you know, that things, things full. I don't think things are going to go in a good direction from there.

I can't imagine how things would end up going in a good direction. So that's really what's motivating. That's really what's motivating me. But I think the overall reaction, you know, from a sort of a media perspective is, is relatively muted, I would say. I would say it's, you know, relative to what's happening. Maybe I'm being naive and listeners are going to be like, wow, what a Pollyanna. but I was genuinely surprised how it does seem like this story kind of petered out.

And I think it is exactly what you're saying, that part of it is just like, well, there's no real implications for a future election here. So what else is there that we could possibly talk about if that's the case? And I was genuinely surprised to see how little traction it got, which is one of the reasons I'm making this episode because I don't think that's appropriate. But yeah, I think it goes back to what you were saying how when we have this dynamic that treats politics and democracy as if it is a game. And if the stakes are one way, there's not even really any point of even engaging on some of these issues that really go back to like right and wrong. And what kind of discourse do we want to have from our elected officials and what kind of discourse is unacceptable?

We're not even really having those conversations in a lot of cases. Yeah, and I think the other part of it that I think about sometimes is that it's a very short-sighted view of the political discourse, meaning, yeah, there might not be implications in Mike Collins Congressional District right now, but politics can change pretty rapidly. You know, it was it wasn't that long ago 2008 when all of the major Democratic candidates, all of them opposed same-sex marriage, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Barack Obama, you know, and you almost forget that that happened, and you couldn't imagine it happening today. Like, you couldn't have a Democratic presidential candidate who opposed the same-sex marriage. People would be like, what are you talking about? Like, this is some sort of bizarre land. But it was really, you know, 15 years ago that that was not only something that could happen, but it was essentially table stakes because people thought that anything else was too radical,

not all people, but the people who were running for president. at that time thought it was too radical. So yeah, Mike Collins might be able to get away with this today. He can pretty much say whatever he wants, but we don't know what the future holds. And I don't think that that should be an excuse if there is something that's worth, you know, exploring and unpacking and worth people's attention from covering it. So that's kind of the, I'm less concerned about, you know, what are the immediate implications of this story and more about what's important, what's not important. And let's just start there. And, you know, things will shake out in ways that are are unpredictable, not always in a great direction. You know, it'll be things go in both directions.

We've seen that, we've seen that too. I think, I think when Obama was was elected in 2008, there were a lot of people saying, you know, the demographics of the country are changing. you know, Republicans are never going to be competitive in presidential elections and et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, that's clearly, you know, not the case. So it's not that, it's not that things are always just going to get improved, but things are always changing and changing in ways that we don't, we can't always predict. I think it really behooves us to take a long view of the landscape. I feel like we're so, at least for me, I feel like having a very short, term, narrow view of things is encouraged and just in the news cycle that we're in. Social media

moves so quickly. And it can really behoove us to step back and take a kind of a longer view of all of this sometimes. For sure. For sure. And I, you know, honestly, that's one of the reasons why I like writing a newsletter as opposed to before when I was editing a blog. And it's just because I write one newsletter a day. So that means that there's a whole bunch of stories that occur during the day, then I know people will probably be interested in, but they'll either already know about or will sort of just be old news by the next morning. So you have to try to pick something. I mean, it's not exactly long-term thinking, you know, as opposed to spending five years writing a book. But it's a little bit better, you know, that you have to think of something that

does this have a, you know, is this still going to be worth thinking about and talking about, you know, in the morning? And I think that's a, I appreciate at least having that, that perspective and that check on myself. Because I think it is, it is tempting to think about, well, what's going to attract people's interest in that moment. And that that is what drives a lot of our, a lot of the discourse. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk, to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

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Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. This is something I feel viscerally, because I make this podcast. Sometimes there really is this pressure to just be reacting constantly, just putting something into the feed that responds to the thing that everybody is talking about. You know, just adding your take into a sea of however many takes are already out there. It's tempting. But does it really make us any smarter or more informed? You know, I think there's

got to be a better way. And Judd does too. I really appreciate that. You know, as somebody who makes a podcast, Our show comes out twice a week. And so many of the stories from the beginning of the week, I'm like, oh, everybody's talking you about this. By the time I'm ready to put an episode out about it, it just feels like more chatter. Like, everybody has already got their takes out. And I guess I think there's a temptation to add to the chatter of like, everybody's talking about this.

Let me do an episode about it. But then you don't get to give these stories a little bit of breathing room and be like, well, what's going to be the story that really does have longer term implications? it's so easy to just crank out reactions and content, but it is harder and I think more valuable to really spend some time being like, well, if people have one story that they're going to pour over today, what story should that be and why? I think you're really doing some of that foundational work of nourishing people via media,

which I think is so important and done less and less these days. Yeah, and it's difficult, but it's to try to think about that. Like what are something that is not getting a lot of attention that might get attention if people just knew about it? But the reality is there are so many stories, so many important stories that are untold today. Because you've had with, you know, Google and Facebook and others sweeping up all the local advertising revenue. You've had a really hollowing out of local journalism, which used to be, you know, there might have. been 10 people covering a state house, you know, in Maryland or wherever. I'm from Maryland. So that's what I'm bringing up. But, you know, it's a similar story at every state. You might

have had 10 people and now you have one or you might have had 50 people and now you have five. And that just means there's so many things that are going on that people don't, don't know about. So it is important when you can to try to, in my view, or at least, what I try to do is to try to find things that I think are are flying under the radar a bit because I think more and more that's what's happening. And this and the desire to kind of pile on or it's safer to write about, you know, it's safer to write about Trump, for instance, you know, because everyone's interested in it. And there's nothing wrong. I mean, he may be our next president. It's not, there's nothing wrong with that. And it's appropriate to be interested in. It's,

and who's the next president, but you know that there's going to be kind of a baseline level of interest. You also know that it is going to be difficult to break new ground because there's so much that's already been said. So I think that there may be more opportunities in down the ballot, in localities, in states where really important things that are happening that impact people's lives, but are not getting that same level of attention just because of where we are, the dynamics of political media. Don't even get me started. You know, not that long ago I was working for an advocacy organization.

And when Trump was in the White House, we definitely leaned on that when we would send emails out to our list because every subject line got to be like, what's Trump done now? Trump is terrible, Trump is doing this and that. And rightly so, like, all of that stuff was true. But when Trump left office, it was so, we had like leaned on that so hard that it was like we had trouble engaging people or getting them interested when we didn't have Trump as this like singular bad guy figure to use. And it kind of made me think like, we really sort of lost the plot here. if we can only talk to our community, our people, when we are pointing to something horrible that Trump has done, legitimately so. But like, there's got to be a better way to engage people politically than that that, like,

actually speaks to their values or, you know, a shared future we want to see together. That's not just, like, you know, pointing to him as a bad guy. It's something that I really think that some of us might have used as a crutch for a bit. And now we're sort of like, oh, well, the media legacy. or the media landscape that that has given us is really not so great. Yeah. And at some point, you know, Trump will go away. I'm not sure what that point will be. But at some point that will happen.

But that won't be the end of his style of politics. And he wasn't the beginning of his style of politics either. You know, we had over many years the development of the Tea Party. and one, you know, what Trump does very kind of effectively, a lot of the time, at least, is degrade confidence and trust in institutions. I mean, that's that's, that's the whole game, ultimately, you know, whether it's saying Barack Obama was really born in Africa or saying the election was actually stolen or saying all the prosecutor. who are going after him are corrupt. I mean, it's about undermining institutions, but that process did not start with Trump. I mean, this is something that has been funded at a very high

level with the Tea Party and with other groups. And once Trump, you know, kind of exit stage left, it will continue. It will continue. And there may be people who are, who were even more effective at a kind of rallying support around some of these these topics. So I do think it is a mistake to present the problem as one of a specific personality. And what other thing that I'll just, since I'm on a little rant here, one other thing that I'll say is, I also think it's a problem that what is now considered a moderate pundit is actually some of the most conservative people on pretty much every issue who don't happen to like Trump stylistically and his his style of politics. So they're anti-Trump, which is fine. But politically, they are not moderate. And if we come out of this,

if we come out of this and the example is, you know, that Bill Crystal or whoever, you know, all these folks who have kind of, you know, are very, you know, some people become anti-Trump and then they, they come back and they're pro-Trump. again, but there are a group of people who are pretty consistently pro-Trump, but that does not make them moderate in any way. It just means that they happen not to like Trump. It is so true. And it really, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier of like, I don't know, when I think about where I was politically and the political landscape in like 2007, 2008, some of the people that I feel like I'm being told like, oh, well, that's a moderate voice. I just can't believe where the ships have fallen and where we are in terms of political discourse

in this country right now. It really terrifies me. And yeah, I just, I don't, I, when I think about where we will be in the future, I genuinely don't know. I think it's, it's really wild how some of the most extreme voices and names out there, we kind of are meant to be like, oh, well, they're not a trumper. So they're kind of on the right track. And it's like, no, they really aren't. Like, what has happened to our landscape here? Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see how that shakes out.

You know, we're either five years away or a few months away from the end of Trump. I don't think he'll have another run in him after this if he were to lose another time. But either way, you know, there'll be, they'll be a new dynamic. And to be honest, I'm looking forward to it because I think it as somebody, you know, I mentioned that, you know, I've been sort of involved in politics in one way or the other for most of my adult life. And I think that the moment we're in now is definitely one of the most exhausting moments because I just feel like the dynamics have not changed for so long. Like what's what's interesting in and kind of invigorating is when you get sort of new dynamics, new figures on the scene, new issues at play, new kinds of debates. But today, you know, we're engaged in a lot of the old kind of debate. So it can become a little exhausting, but it doesn't make it.

of course the stakes are still just as important. So you kind of soldier all. But if things do change one day soon, I won't be too upset about it. You and me both. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

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Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star label. Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you,

but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladecki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world, Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning.

It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Given the kind of reporting that you do, what role do you see corporate money and corporate funding and corporate support having in where we are today? Like when it comes to Collins, like who, who, who, what brands and what corporate entities are some of some of the folks who are supporting him right now? Well, I think when you when you look at it, a lot of his supporters are major corporations that are based in Georgia, which is not. So you have folks like Delta Delta Airlines.

You have folks like Coca-Cola, and then some of the other national, big national groups who are based elsewhere, AT&T, Verizon. And one thing I thought was really interesting about Coca-Cola, and this, of course, goes back to its kind of history in Georgia specifically, which is one of the central places where the civil rights movement kind of was played out. and Coca-Cola has always had kind of a forward-looking perspective on those issues. And I think really, you know, for a whole variety of reasons, it's based in Georgia. I think it wants to make sure that it can attract, you know, the best black talent, the best talent overall, but particularly a lot of the talent are going to be black people. And so they've been pretty forward looking. And they actually in 2021 pledged and said, we are not going to give any money to people who are making these kind of outrageous comments on racial issues. Like that is our pledge. And it fits in with a lot of the other stuff they've done. And you don't want to, I don't want to diminish the fact. that they have done a lot of important work in this regard. But the thing that I find

disturbingly cynical is that Coca-Cola and the other corporations too never really want to be held accountable or follow through on pledges like that. They want the sort of PR win, and they definitely want that reputation, but they also want to stay on good terms with somebody who is a congressman from their state, who they may need to get a meeting with or might want to be able to bend his ear a bit on an important issue. So, you know, that's where I see a much larger role. if corporations are really serious about this. I mean, that's the whole thing with, you know,

whether you want to call it ESG or DEI or whatever acronym you want to call it around corporate social responsibility is there's a lot of criticism from the right. But the reality is most of this is just talk. Many corporations are saying a lot of stuff. They have a whole fancy website about, you know, what they're going to be doing on climate in 2045, but they're not doing anything now. You know, now they're going in the wrong direction. So that's, I think, you know, we'll have to see how that, that, how that plays out. There's a reason why it's a political battlefield right now is because it's important.

and the right has come back and is trying to make it politically unpalatable for corporations take any kind of position on political or social issues. Yeah, I mean, given all that, like, given that we're seeing things like DEI and like inclusion efforts, even the mildest, the most toothless things being attacked and kind of made, politically reactive in these ways, like, where do you see corporations and brands landing? And in some way, like, does it matter where they land? Because, you know, I have to tell you, I've taken, like, a tour of the Civil Rights Museum in Atlanta, which they have an entire Coca-Cola wing. And the person who was giving us the tour was from Coca-Cola and was, like, very proud to tell us what a big ally Coca-Cola was in the civil rights movement and how important

that economic flexing was to the civil rights movement and all of that. And like here in 2024 having them be like, well, we made this pledge, but what are going to do? Like it is very disappointing. But I guess stepping back, like, do you think these brands are going to really be engaged? Is it all just talk? And on some level, like, does it matter? I think it, I mean, I think, again, it's the short term and in the long term. I think short. term, there's very little in it for brands right now. And that's why you sort of see a retrenching. The most dramatic thing we saw happen was after January 6th when you did see a lot of corporations pledge to stop donating to the members of Congress that voted against certifying the election.

but quickly we've also seen most of those companies rolled those back or they did it for a year or two years and then they said that was enough and now we're going to donate to those companies again, donate to those members of Congress again. Because the reality is that right now the political environment is pretty, it's pretty evenly split. Maybe it's not completely evenly split, but you don't, if you want to appeal to everyone, you know, it's pretty easily. easy to make people upset. But I do think that there's a broader trend where people are much more conscious in their consumption. Maybe not right now about the politics of the companies who are producing the products that they're consuming, but people are much more interested, for instance, in, you know, if they're buying broccoli, like where that broccoli came from. They're much more interested today than they were 10 years ago. They're much more interested in how their t-shirt was

produced. Not everyone, but many more people than were produced. And I think that if people are starting to engage in those kinds of questions and think more critically about those kind of questions, it is a natural next step and certainly a step that some people, although maybe not a critical mass of people, are taking, to think about what role is this company playing in the political issues that I care about. How are they using their influence? Because there is a path where the companies sort of take a step back and say, we're not going to do anything. We're not going to donate the politicians. We're not going to engage in lobbying. We're just going to focus on making our widgets and selling our widgets and we'll let other people worry about

politics. That's not really where they are right now. where most companies are right now is they will support people in power because they want access to power. And I do think that there is a point in the foreseeable future when a critical mass of consumers say that that is not good enough and that I'm going to shift my consumption to corporations that either stay out of it or corporations that more reflect my values. So I do think that this process of at least at the beginning kind of maybe just exposing the role that corporations play in politics, you know, may lead somewhere.

Maybe I won't be doing this work long enough to see it, but it might, it's not hard to imagine a world where, you know, people are paying much closer attention to these kinds of issues. Well, to that end, you know, in your newsletter piece about what happened at Old Miss, I noticed that You know, you're like, oh, popular information reached out to AT&T, Verizon, Coke, didn't hear back. How much of this work for you was like being willing to ask the, ask the company an annoying question? And then being like, I'm not going to answer that. Like how much of this is just being like, well, you said XYZ publicly, what's the deal?

Where do you stand now? Spend a lot of time doing that. And it is sometimes frustrating. and you don't always get an answer or if you do get an answer, it's sometimes it's no comment. And I do think that people are much less likely, people are much less likely to weigh in now than they even were in 2021. Because there's been a concerted effort to try to present this idea that corporations have gone woke and they're guarding against the other side of it. So, yeah, that is a big part of it. But I also think it's, you know, important work.

I mean, we were the first people in the newsletter, it was the first place to report that any companies had decided to not to stop donating to the members of Congress who voted not to certify on January 6th. And it's because, you know, we sent out the, you know, inquiries to 177 companies, I think, for the first issue. And we heard back from four of them. But those, that four turned out to be, you know, fairly significant and helped create a dynamic where other companies filed suit. So I think it's important to ask those questions. And I think sometimes even when you don't get an answer, it's important to know, it's important for the companies to know that it's getting

written about and it's going to be, and it's going to be discussed and talked about. And I know that companies do pay attention to this kind of reporting. And that's one of the reasons why I stick with it. The other reason is I know that a lot of readers appreciate it. And a lot of readers are looking for that information. It's probably not the first thing on the top of everyone's mind when they're in the grocery store or whatever they're doing, going about their day. You know, people have, you have to remind yourself when you're working in a political space or the media space that people have other things going on. They've got

jobs and lives and kids and all sorts of responsibilities. And so they're not always going to be focused on this stuff. But, you know, for the people that are or or might be, you know, establishing this factual record, I think is, is worth some time. I think popular information has completely changed the culture around how we think about who is funding what and our role in it and all of that. So I completely agree. And I guess one of my last questions is for folks who are listening who are like, I'm so checked out on this. I don't even know. Like, how do you stay engaged and not just sit out all of this, sit out your democracy, especially when things are so exhausting?

and everything seems so exhausting to keep up with. Well, I think that's a tough question because I think it is difficult enough to kind of keep your own life on track and your own life in order. Sort of taking in all these external things that might not be happening in your front door is difficult. And I think it's actually okay sometimes. I know this is maybe like anathema to people who work in the political space, but it's okay sometimes to like check out and just focus on yourself. But I do think that the progress in politics or things that are more can give you some hope don't usually come in the form of this one sort of dramatic event.

where everything is fixed again and everything is good again. That's not the way that it works. But I think that things that can impact even one person's life or just having someone feel like they're more understood or more valued, that can be really important. And that's what I, you know, try to try to focus on. And so I think if you're feeling like what you're doing doesn't matter or it's just pointless to be engaged, you know, your contribution might just be explaining the importance of, you know, let's say expanding the child tax credit to one person. and getting them to, you know, maybe just under, maybe not even change their mind, but maybe just understand that issue and why a lot of people rely on it and why we have,

you know, a lot of kids who are still living in poverty in the United States, that can be, I think that's, that's like a contribution that you can feel okay about. You know, it doesn't have to be that, you know, you've, you've passed a major piece of legislation because that's something that anyone really can do these days. So that's, I think when I'm thinking clearly, I think that's the kind of thing that I try to focus on. And I think probably the right, the better attitude. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com.

You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,

rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Other podcasts from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything.

I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

And every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the... biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlic. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicalife Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multimillion dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud.

But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encourage. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Thank you.