There Are No Girls on the Internet - Is the #Girlboss era over? (with Jamie Loftus!)

Episode Date: August 9, 2022

Earlier this summer Sheryl Sandberg left Facebook and the tech and business world hardly noticed. This comes after Sandberg was branded the face of corporate feminism with her book Lean In.    She joins other "Girl Boss" women like Sophia Amoruso and Elizabeth Holmes in stepping down from their tumultuous companies. Does this spell the end of the #GirlBoss era?    Jamie Loftus, comedian, podcaster, and creator of the one woman show Girl Whom Is Boss sends up the Girl Boss era.    Follow Jamie: https://twitter.com/jamieloftusHELP Listen to Jamie's fantastic podcasts! The Bechdel Cast: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-the-bechdel-cast-30089535/ Lolita Podcast: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-lolita-73899842/ Ghostchurch: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-ghost-church-by-jamie-lof-95721611/   Listen to Theranos- Breaking the Glass Ceiling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufjvtdaKJDwSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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What would you eat if you had to start over? Real simple, poor man's, poor woman's food. Black beans, chicken. Rice, plantains. On the podcast Eating While Broke, I sit down with celebrities, entrepreneurs, and creators as they revisit the meals they once relied on and the moments that shaped their journey.

Named Best Food Podcasts at the 2006 IHeart Podcast Awards, the full season is available to binge. Right now, listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I feel like Girl Boss mentality, takes place in this void where systemic issues don't really exist, or they do exist, but they can be surmounted by one person. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

No podcast about women and technology could be complete without talking about the era of the girl boss. In the odds, around 2013, 2014, women were leaning in. girl boss in and hashtag hustling in traditionally male-dominated spaces like technology and entrepreneurship. So when I hear the word girl boss, I think of women like Cheryl Sandberg, formerly of Facebook,

Sophia Amorosa, who basically wrote the book on Girl Boss, her 2014 memoir and the Netflix show based on her life was literally called Girl Boss, and Elizabeth Holmes, who may have Girl Bossed a little bit too close to the sun when her blood testing company Theranos was revealed to be a scam. And I will admit, I had a bit of a girl boss era,

where I thought feminism was connected to me individually, kicking ass professionally and making a lot of money. Now, to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with women having ambition in their careers or holding power. That is all great. But the girl boss era really sold us ambition as liberation. It sold us on the idea that you could lean in and overperform your way out of institutional systems,

like racism, patriarchy, sexism, and capitalism. And more and more, I think we're seeing the flaws in that mindset. In her one-woman show, Girl Who Miss Boss, comedian and podcaster Jamie Loftus, takes on the Girl Boss. Her Cheryl Sandberg-style girl boss archetype is named Shell Gasoline Sandwich, and she's a toxic corporate feminist who's teaching all fellow girl bosses

how to use technology to steal data for fun, profit, and hashtag feminism. It's parts scuring, parts end up, and 100% hilarious. So I just finished watching Girl whom is boss. It is hysterical. And I want to start with a question.

Be honest. Before you did Girl Whom is boss, did you go through a girl boss phase? Um, probably. I think it's like, I've, it's hard. It's, it's, I kind of struggle with the term, especially because I've like messed with it so heavily. I mean, I don't know. I think you can describe a lot of, um, trying to make space for yourself where it doesn't exist as girl boss behavior. And then if you're a little disingenuous about it, that really turns up the girl boss factor. I'm sure. I've had girl boss moments over the years, not like ones that are, that almost kill people, but I'm sure that there's, I feel like, you know, we've all had our girl boss moments. And then you reflect on them and you're just like, hopefully they weren't, you know, publicly documented or anything. I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question. Have you? Oh, my God. I,

I mean, I wasn't starting any genocides in Myanmar or anything. But I was definitely had a phase where I was kind of, I don't know, like I read Sophia Amoroso's book, Girl Boss, when it first came out. Right. I definitely had this idea that it was, it was, I had absorbed this message that it was important to be a specific kind of working woman, like a, you know, woman who wore blazers. I'm like, you know, like I had this idea that you had to be a certain kind of woman to be successful professionally. And that how I was just normally was not that. And that I needed to like, I don't know if I would call it a girl boss era, but I was definitely like had absorbed a lot of maybe not so helpful messages about feminism.

I guess I'll say that. Yes. Yeah. I feel like they're like early, I don't know, like when I was like exposed to like early, I guess third wave feminism, you're, it just felt like this illusion of control. Like if I act a certain way and I. do certain things, then I will be an equal, which like ignores literally everything. And it didn't work. And so then I think I kind of exited that area and like read a book or something. I don't know.

So if you had to define what a girl boss is to you, how would you define it? I think that there's different levels of it. I feel like as time goes on, it's a blanket term that doesn't, you know, it can apply to a lot of different behaviors. For some people, it's literally just a woman who has power, which I think is kind of a slippery slope that, you know, misogynists have co-opted it and refer to any behavior of any woman with any semblance of power or influence to be girl bossery. I don't think that's the case. I'm completely fine with women holding power. Like, that's great in some cases. But girl bossery is basically, I think, like, taking on the language of feminism to lift up yourself or a harmful institution as an individual with, like, no collective interest in anyone but yourself.

And so I feel like good examples are your Elizabeth Holmes'es, your Cheryl Sandbergs, who are like lifted as this example of like feminist wind. But then you look at what they're doing and it's, you know, upholding patriarchy and appeasing male billionaires. Sorry, that was a long definition. No, it's perfect. I was going to say, I was going to add to your list of girl bosses or your shell gasoline sandwiches. Yes, she's bad. That woman especially, like, I just, I don't know how she is still just like out and about. It's absurd. So how did you come to be someone who was like really skewering this idea of the girl boss and what it's come to mean in our culture and in our landscape? Like, why was this something that you really wanted to poke fun at and build commentary around?

At the time, there wasn't like a ton of discussion around it. And what, like, kind of originally piqued my interest in it was I was really, really into the Elizabeth Holmes story. And I feel like I'm wondering if you've had this experience too where, like, there would always just be like these lists that would be released kind of on like clickbaitier websites that are like women who are changing the podcast or like changing comedy. And like sometimes, you know, like my podcast, the Begdell cast with Caitlin Durante, like, we would appear on the same list of people that I'm like, now hold on. I cannot believe that we are doing the same thing. And I'm, I'm upset that we're on the same list because this person is clearly just selling something. You know, like, so it was, it was, you know, kind of a selfish frustration I was having. And but realizing like, okay, we are using a lot of the same language, but it's to like attempt to accomplish something really different. And so I don't know. And then when I looked into the term more and then into tech specifically, I read a few different books to like get that show kind of off the ground and give it a level of specificity that I wanted it to have. And yeah, so I sort of just took it from there.

Oh my gosh. The thing that you just said, I mean, I don't want to, this is, I'll just say, I completely identify with those lists of, you know, like, oh, women in podcasting you should know where not to put the kind of podcast that you and I make on a pedestal, but like I'm not really selling anything. I'm not selling courses. I'm not selling coaching. I'm not selling like a workshop. There's nothing that I'm trying to get you to buy. I'm trying to curate thoughtful conversations about culture and the way that gender shows up in culture. And I often, I get a little bit, like, oh, well, like, no shade to them, but we're just doing very different things. And I would not call myself, like, I'm, I'm not offended when I wind up on those lists, but I'm like, oh,

I feel like we're doing very different things. Like, the show that I'm making is different than someone who is making a show that is, like, you know, by my course that teaches you how to do whatever, or, like, my coaching seminar that teaches you how to do whatever. I just feel like it is an example of how, like, narrow. women are viewed where it's like you don't see lists like that for like men that are changing the podcasting game they're like put into genres and categories. Maybe because people are like listening to their work a little more carefully and taking it more seriously. I don't know. That's such a good point. And I think you know, you mentioned Elizabeth Holmes. I was obsessed

with her story. I watched every episode of the dropout. And one of the things that I think that her story really shows us and I think that your that your show really does a good job of like scuring this. You know, one of the things that a gasoline sandwich talks about is like, oh, I will teach you basic feminism and how to use it to commit crimes against the poor. And I think there is so much truth to this where we have this tendency to, I don't know, like put women and the work that we make into these specific categories and boxes that are not always helpful and not always thoughtful. Jamie and I are both captivated by Elizabeth Holmes.

And if you watch the Hulu show The Dropout, you'll recall that when investigators were closing in on her and her Theranos scam, Elizabeth Holmes initiated a pretty brilliant PR push to throw off the heat. She said that she was only being attacked because she is a prominent woman in technology, which I'm sure was at least partially true. And that the whole thing was just one big sexist smear. She created a campaign called hashtag Iron Sisters to celebrate strong women like her

who are breaking the glass ceiling. And it kind of worked. If you search Twitter, there's still very earnest hashtag Iron Sisters tweets up right now. And honestly, I get it. I think this was a time when it was easy to look at a woman succeeding and say, that's feminism, whether what she was doing was a scam

or actually hurting people. On the dropout when Elizabeth Holmes is, like feeling the heat, she makes that campaign Iron Sisters that really highlights like, oh, you know, we're women who are who are in technology and trying to shatter the glass ceiling. As if just being a woman in technology who has a job in tech is like in and of itself an act of feminism, in and of itself an act of like solidarity or something like that. And the way that that is used to kind of like not really look too deeply at the work that is actually being created, I don't know. I feel like your show does a really good job of demonstrating the ways that we have allowed, I don't know, conversations around gender to really keep from really looking too hard about what's actually being done.

Thank you. Oh, that means a lot to me. Thanks. Yeah, I don't know. It's, yeah, with the with the show, it's like, I don't know. I was hoping that it would like resonate for people and try. to like make light of how frustrating and kind of like predatory that trend feels or Atlanta especially felt a couple of years ago before it was like um now I feel like there's like a pretty like what's the word of looking for? Robust. Oh my God. A robust public discussion around it. But it just felt nice to like connect with audiences about how frustrating it was. In the same way, way where I'm like, I've been feeling bad for the last two minutes being like, I didn't mean that like podcasts, women's podcasts that are trying to sell you lifestyle choices like are, you know, better or

worse than what you or I do. But then it's, I don't know. I feel like there's this weird pressure to support every woman doing everything, even though it's like, well, you know, wouldn't true equality mean you could kind of call bullshit on some behavior. I don't know. It's so, it's so, it's So weird. I still like struggle with it. Yeah, it is a struggle. And I hear you, I don't want to make it seem like I'm like absolutely no shade to creators for whom that's their thing. But I do think like, I think we, because we live in a capitalistic hellscape nightmare society, there is an inclination to any woman who is making money. There's an inclination to be like, oh, well, that's feminism. That's a win for feminism. Even if they're making. money in a way that is like predatory or harmful to others. And I think that we, I'm glad that we're moving away from this, but I think in like peak girl boss era, feminism was sort of sold to us as like, I'm allowed to do anything, even if it hurts people, and that's feminism. And when you criticize me, that's the opposite of feminism. And I'm, I guess I'm glad to see that we're sort of

getting away from that because I think that was actually like not great for women. A lot of things can be true where it's like, I, you know, Elizabeth Holmes and Cheryl Sandberg absolutely used their status as feminist symbols to, like, shield themselves against valid criticism. And also, people were sexist towards them at different points in their career. And, like, both of those things are true and worthy of discussion. And it's, you know, not fair that they experienced discrimination, but also, like, using that. And using like having experienced something like that as a shield for discussing what you've done to harm other people with far less power than you do is like how is that helping anything or moving anything forward? Like it doesn't.

So Cheryl Sandberg is, you know, kind of like, well, you know, people were sexist to me early in my career and still sometimes now. so I don't need to talk about the genocide I had a part. You're like, that's just, that's not right, babe. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand

how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world, fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story.

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So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast. How hard can it be with the Adamani Areva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How high can it be getting naked at 50? with the new guy.

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as part of my Cultura podcast network available on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. The thing that really turned me on a con. concept of the girl boss was watching powerful women who were complicit in questionable companies or behavior enjoy this kind of unearned goodwill simply for being women. Like for a long time, people wrote about Cheryl Sandberg, formerly of Facebook, in a way that suggested that she couldn't possibly have a hands-on role in some of the more evil things that Facebook was

responsible for because of her gender. And that completely flies in the face of reality. Because Sandberg was personally responsible for some pretty messed up stuff at Facebook. She publicly defended and apologized for Facebook's role in facilitating a deadly genocide in Myanmar. But her bad behavior went beyond Facebook, including allegedly using her position at Meta to personally pressure a media outlet to kill a negative story about her then boyfriend, Blizzard Activision CEO Bobby Kotick. Now, the story was about how she was about how a woman had taken a restraining order out on Kotick, who we know would go on to be accused of sexual harassment

and misconduct by staffers. So Cheryl Sandberg, the same woman who wrote a book telling women to lean in to overcome the toxic sexist workplace boys club and was branded the face of corporate feminism for it, was doing so while personally hurting women. I think Cheryl Sandberg is such an interesting example because something that I think is particular to her and some of the other, you know, people that you think of as girl bosses is that, you know,

when people would criticize Facebook and all the horrible things it was responsible for globally, you know, genocide, disrupting democracies, all of those things, I feel like Cheryl Sandberg was able to enjoy this unearned vibe where, because she's a woman, certainly she must be the, like, mature adult in the room who is trying to rein in the likes of, like Mark Zuckerbergs and the other tech bros. Like she's one of the good ones. She's trying her best. And I think that that, and I see that also with like Ivanka Trump, that certainly she must be

the voice of reason who is trying to like rein in all the men around her who are causing harm. And I feel like they really used this unearned goodwill that came from being women working in situations surrounded by powerful men to excuse examination of a lot of their own behavior. and things that they were frankly really complicit in. Like, I know for a fact that Cheryl Sandberg had a pretty big hand in a lot of, like, harmful stuff that Facebook did, harmful stuff that other tech companies did. Like when Cheryl Sandberg was in a relationship with Bobby Kotick, the CEO of Activision Games,

and actively helped create, actively helped squash stories about his bad behavior, including, like, alleged sexual misconduct. Yes. And so it's like, that. That is you being complicit in, like, behavior that hurts women. And so just kind of like letting that behavior go unchecked because you're a woman working at a male-dominated environment. And of course, you've experienced sexism, which is not okay.

I think they were really savvy in using a lot of what you were just talking about to avoid critical looks at their own active bad behavior. Absolutely. That's – I don't hear that. example brought up very much. You're totally right. I kind of forget about that where it's like, you know, at that point she's actively oppressing people and like women specifically about that, you know, and her whole, like her whole book, the whole idea was like, you know, lean in is just like, well, women aren't being paid like equally or treated well because they haven't asked, which is like,

it's just so wild that that was a book that came out and was like widely accepted as the 10 years ago where she was just like, yeah, it just like literally has not occurred to your boss to pay you equally. And you just need to like buy a blazer and march in there and say, guess what, Buster? I talk to someone and you need to give me the right amount of money. Like and and that's not like completely useless advice. But I feel like girl boss mentality takes place in this void where systemic issues don't really exist or. They do exist, but they are like, they can be surmounted by one person. Right.

Yeah. I don't know. It's like a nice, it's a nice, I get why it's a nice kind of thing to buy into. And I think for like, it sounds like, whatever, like Cheryl Sandberg is like a privileged cis white woman. So it is going to be easier for her to surmount what's in front of her. But it just like is, I don't know, it's like this kind of like bummer fantasy that it feels very like late 2000s where you're like, yeah, I guess that that makes sense that everyone was so pumped about that. But, you know, now we can't, now Roe v. Wade doesn't even exist. So. Yeah. It's funny.

It's wild. Yeah, it is wild. And it's like, it's so throwbacky in a kind of way because I just did a podcast episode about Lena Dunham. And I was like looking at like, well, what was a cultural? and political and social attitude of like 2013, 2014. And it was a different time. Like, I, and it's funny, I go back

and look at my Facebook page back that and like, I was definitely on some like, Beyonce, Leslie Noop. Like, I really, my understanding of what being a feminist was, it has really evolved. And I look back that and I'm like, yeah, I thought

it was like, Slay Queen, like, you know. Right. It wasn't very useful to me or anybody around me. Like, it felt good. And I understand why. It just feel good. Yeah, it felt good.

And I understand why I gravitated toward it. And like, I get it. The same way that like when someone is like, oh, just march in there and put on a blazer and tell your boss you want pay equality, why that advice feels good. Even if it's like, well, some things are institutional. Some things are systemic. Like, you can't lean in individually, you know, you can't lean in out of like something that's institutional. But yeah, I just think that we really. culturally, we're on a journey to figure out how feminism could be actually useful in our lives.

And like, in what ways it maybe wouldn't be so useful? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Gosh, I feel like we should, there should be some sort of like empathetic reckoning around like the feminism that existed 10 years ago. Because it's like embarrassing to look back on for me. Like I look at like, I was like, oh, she was really trying. She was really trying to figure stuff out. It was basically a miss across the board. It was like a lot of Leslie Nope, a lot of like, I don't know, like, just that era where it definitely like had its part in moving us forward. But you look back on it, you're just like, man, what was I getting at there? And it's kind of a relief.

I don't know, to like look back 10 years and be like, wow, things really have moved forward, like, considerably. Because it's like that, it's like stuff that you'd barely recognize now. I don't know. Like it's or something that is like kind of widely recognized as like, this is fun and this like feels nice. But this isn't like productive. But it felt like we were really, you know, doing something at the time. Oh my God. It really did. Like I guess I thought like if only I bought enough.

notorious RBG crap on Etsy that like we would really like we would really get somewhere. Yeah, yeah. And it's like all unethically produced. It's just like stuff we weren't thinking about at all. Like it's just oh my God. Yes, the notorious RBG.

Look, I just last year had to finally like, I kept like hiding it throughout my house, but like the I'm with her. You're just like, Jamie, what are you doing? you're a socialist. Get it together. What? Um, so I am, I am, you know, I'm glad that we've moved forward with that. I was literally hiding it. Like I was like it was, I was like just, just, I don't know. And then if that's the kind of thing, not me explaining what I did with my Hillary Clinton tank top, but I'm like, you can't really donate this. No one wants this, right?

Yeah. I don't, but I donate it and maybe they lit it on fire. I don't know. But, um, just wild stuff. And even like in terms of like being able to speak on harassment and abuse like this time 10 years ago, because I was in, I was in college 10 years ago and there was like no public discussion around harassment. And like just, I don't know, things have really changed a lot. And it's like, we actively live in hell, but I try to remember like we know how to talk to each other about living in hell now, which is kind of, um, I don't know. Maybe that's like very little comfort, but it is, it does feel like an improvement. It does. And I was just thinking about this when I was prepping to speak to you today. Like, I do feel like most people have, like, unless you're like deep in an MLM, I feel like most people have been like, okay, maybe the girl boss era was not super helpful. And we've kind of like left. I feel like we've kind of moved. A lot of us have moved beyond girl boss hustle, grind culture. And I think I see.

in a lot of the ways that like all these people that we think of as like OG girl bosses, Cheryl Sandberg, Elizabeth Holmes, Sophia Amoroso, they have all kind of, I don't want to say like had their downfalls, but they've, they're no longer a prominent part of the public conversation anymore. And I wonder like, what do you think that means that so many of the OG girl bosses are now kind of fading from notoriety? And Elizabeth Holmes was like, might be going to jail. So, you know, there's that. I, I think so. I forget she's not in jail, which is, God, the age of Coachella Liz is so fascinating. I just, what can I say? Okay. So, I mean, I don't know. I honestly, like, I got so burnt out on

Girl Boss Culture doing that show that I haven't really tracked very carefully, like, what the follow if that is, because I do, like, again, doing that, even doing that, like, dinky little show that I loved doing, but it's like, you know, I was performing that show in a storage unit in Scotland for a month. So, you know, you're like, it's like, you're seeing 100 people a night. But there, and, but there were some people that would, you know, come up to me after that show who genuinely were like, you know, I really enjoyed it. And, but like, their takeaway was like, women in power are disingenuous. And you're like, well, that is, I think, the little bit of danger that's introduced by the girl boss criticism and sort of that wave that I feel like is also dying

now. It's just like the gigantic amount of media. And now it's like the girl boss is kind of a stock character that people are getting sick of because like you're saying, they're kind of fading from the public eye. But I think like I think it's it's good that like women who are you know taking on the language of feminist and the tools of oppressors like that that is something that is like completely acceptable and normal to to be able to call out. And I think that that makes room for a lot more I mean, I think that makes room and sets a standard for just like leaders in general of like, you can't just throw your, like, your womanhood in my face and say that this she'll do from critique.

And that's like not okay. And it's publicly kind of accepted that that's not okay. And then the other side of that, I feel like is still like misogyny, still alive and well. I'm wondering, like, has the girl boss era and all the very valid critique that's been made of women like this, have other women come into power in their stead? Have people been more, like, and has it been diverse at all? Like, or is it just kind of another crop of white women who are like learning like, oh, I can't do that. I can't do that. I can't do that. I can't do that. But here's how I'm going to kind of innovate leveraging the. the tools of oppressors against other people. I don't know. I don't feel optimistic about it, I guess. Yeah, that's something that I really struggle with. It's like, I definitely see the vibe of like people thinking that critiques of Girl Boss means that like you're critiquing any woman in power that, oh yeah, women who have power are disingenuous. They're awful.

We should critique them. And that's not really what you're saying. And I do, I want to be, because I think it's so easy for critiques of women with power to just veer into being. grounded in sexism and misogyny because like our society should not hold power. Exactly, right? But like I also think that like, you know, I think that like leaving behind this sort of disingenuous girl boss vibe, at least in my own life, like I think of myself as an entrepreneur even though like I'm pretty shitty at it. But I think it maybe can open up room for I mean, I'm trying my best. But like I used to. I used to. to think that I had to be a certain kind of woman to be a successful entrepreneur.

And now I'm realizing that all of those like very narrow, like, ways of thinking were not serving me. And what I really need to be thinking about is like making room for leadership that feels good. It is aligned with who I am and my own values. And in like figuring out ways that I can lead in ways that make me feel good, get the work done, and uphold my values of how I want to treat people and that like having those be like very narrow narrowly defined by

gender is not useful to me. I don't really think it's useful to anybody. And it's like we have the challenge is finding out like how we lead with our values and not how we lead along like very narrow buzzwords like girl boss. Right. Oh, I love that. Yes, I totally, I totally agree.

And I hope that that is like I hope we're, I hope, I hope, I just want more people to be like you, Bridget. I, uh, yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, like leading with your values and like, I mean, because I don't know, like, I fuck up. Like, no one is going to be perfect 100% of the time, which I feel like also was kind of a part of the girl boss ethos was like, there is no margin for error. Um, but like, yeah, just taking a look like an honest like at what you're doing and like,

just gut checking yourself. I try to, I try to do that as much as possible where you're just like, okay, who is this for? Like, does this have a purpose? And sometimes if the answer is just like, this is just a goofy, weird thing I want to do. I'm like, okay, well, that's not hurting anyone. I'm going to do it. But yeah, just like gut checking the potential impact of stuff you do, which is like, I feel like that's more becoming, uh, like, uh, like, uh, like, go-to question for not just people making stuff, but people who consume stuff as well, which I think is good. I like it.

More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business.

Think I-Hard. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-8-4-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin. Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the

lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got to. at the bar like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventures, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner lands. and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges.

Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it.

Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Cheryl Sandberg left Facebook back in June, and she left with barely a blip when compared to the splashy fanfare that accompanied her hiring at Facebook, her books, and her successful branding as a capital W working woman. We saw the same thing with other girl boss types, like Sophia Amarosa and man-repellers Leandra Medine,

who all left their companies. So is the era of the girl boss officially dead? And if so, what comes next? During those especially tough years early on in the pandemic, I saw so many women turning to aesthetics like the that-girl aesthetic that prizes self-care and wellness. or at least the idea of it. But will an aesthetic ever really be the thing that saves us?

Will the revolution come in a matching workout set? Looking onto the horizon, now that we're sort of moving away from Girlboss, what do you think, do you think there's an ethos that might replace it? And is there a way that that ethos might be, you know, not something that is just sort of buzzwordy and co-op-y? Because now that we're all kind of like being like, okay, hustle, grind, is not maybe the move. I see all of these things like, oh, like paying lots and lots of money for the idea of self-care or like, you know, on TikTok, like the quote, that girl aesthetic or like the slow life aesthetic.

I guess I like that those are coming into style, I guess, but I still wonder if like it's just another kind of buzzwordy thing that will be co-opted and ultimately used to like further marginalize us or further harm us. Like, I feel like, do you think there's a way that we can expect better from these ethos that, like, that they might actually serve us? Yeah. I mean, I feel like as much as is possible. Like, it's just talking to people in real life and, like, having conversations outside of the Internet, like, which, again, 10 years ago, I really felt, like, you know, feminism and, like, all of these, like, all of these, like, like systemic problems that I did not have really much understanding of at the time. Like this is going to be something that's going to be worked out on the internet. The internet is a useful tool for this stuff.

I don't like, I don't, I feel like a little differently right now. I feel like obviously there is like incredible community building that happens on the internet. And I don't want to like take away from or be reductive of online communities. But I feel like, yeah, for me, like sometimes when your algorithm is like feeding you certain stuff and you're like, I mean, I felt I resisted the skin care. Like you have to spend hundreds of dollars on skin care or you don't love yourself. Like kind of vibe for years. But then finally during lockdown, I caved and I like got a bunch of goopy, not actual goop, but like bought a bunch of sauces. And, you know, it's like, now I love myself, which, you know, not true.

And I feel like, yeah, it's just talking with my actual friends in real life, I feel like usually clarifies a lot of stuff really quickly in a way that I find really comforting and life-affirming. Because it's so easy for, I mean, for me, I'm like also, when it comes to things that are praying on myself, esteem, I'm extremely gullible. And so stuff like that, like I am very, very susceptible to fall for no matter how that's, I mean, which is kind of like, I don't know, I wonder what your kind of opinion is on this stuff. Because it's like, I get so annoyed with myself because I'm like, wow, I like spend so much time trying to like understand how these things work. And I still, when it praise on my self-esteem specifically, I fall for it immediately. And I'm like, oh my God, yes,

I'm horrible. Wait, I'm bad. I should, I should buy this product. Um, so I just need to, yeah, like gut checking with a real life community and just talking to each other outside of like algorithmically dictated conversations, um, feels like what's been helpful for me. Oh, I feel the exact same way, especially during COVID, like lockdown, I can't tell you, I would be ashamed if I could tabulate it all up, I would be ashamed to tell you how much money I spent on like matching workout sets, yoga stuff, skincare, green juices. Like, I just really was like, I understood that I was not happy. And I mean, who was happy during, you know, when COVID first was like, who was happy during that time? But I understood that I wasn't happy. And I was trying to fill that

void of unhappiness with more crap that had been targeted to me on Instagram. And for a while, it really was like almost pathological. Like, I would see a picture of a woman, you know, doing her daily routine. And it looks so great. And it was like, I have to buy everything that she has. And maybe that will make me happy. And it really was just like, yeah, I'm in a, I'm in lockdown. COVID is happening. I'm miserable like everybody else. And I need to, like, nothing I can buy is going to fix that. Like, I had to like, like actively work to turn off whatever was in my brain that would make me hit by when I saw a targeted, you know, algorithmically generated Instagram ad for something that was promising me,

this promise of having a happy, fulfilled, wholesome life that I was so yearning for. Absolutely. And it's like, and also it's like, looking back on that, you're like, how lucky were we that we got to like sit at home and obsess about stuff like that? because, like, everyone's experience of lockdown was so wildly different. And yeah, I, it's, I don't know. I, I, it's a mind fuck. And I look back at times like that and times like that, literally the end of the world,

times like that, the plague. And feel like, it feels almost like a different person. And that was like us two years ago. It's just, yeah, it's wild. It is wild. And I'm happy that we're able to have conversations about how we can get someplace more meaningfully productive, I guess, and not just rely on algorithms and buying crap and buzzwords that will ultimately get us, I think, further away from where we want to be.

Yeah. Yeah. And just like, I don't know. Like, yeah, and I think like just trying to have empathy for each other and like talking, I don't know. Like I have found a lot of, I guess like just like a lot of comfort and it feels like a productive discussion. But also it's like not every discussion has to be productive. Sometimes we can just talk. And like that's great too.

But the incredible pressure and stress there is right now to understand everything that's going on all the time. And I feel like it's like during the girl boss era, the pressure was very much like you need to. I'm kind of thinking of the like Gia Talentino essay about like optimizing yourself as a woman and becoming like the optimal woman and everything you do is productive and serving this higher. purpose of like moving forward in the world. And even as sort of that has become less of a popular mindset, even though it's definitely not gone because, you know, capitalism is still a thing. I feel like there's kind of a flip side of that where, you know, the world is like metaphorically and actually on fire. And there's so many things going on. And there's like this pressure. that is like reinforced by the internet to like know exactly what's going on,

have a completely well articulated opinion about it, like a plan of action, like all of this stuff for like 500 like just there, it's impossible. And I feel like being able to talk to people about the existential stress of that without, you know, going towards like nihilism and not being like, well, I'm not going to do anything.

But just like talking about just being more comfortable. I don't know. I'm trying to be more comfortable saying, like, I don't know. Or like, I don't know much about that. Or am I making sense? I don't know. Like, oh, absolutely. Like, giving yourself space to be like, I'm still working on that. Or like, we'll see. Or I'm not sure. Like, not every kind of, like, we, I do think that we have, like, the internet has given us this pressure to be experts in everything and to have it all figured out. And we should really be pushing back by giving us, giving ourselves space in grace to be. You know, not experts and not have it all figured out and not have a good action plan. And that's okay too. Right. Or just like, yeah, with some stuff it's like, oh, I don't. I mean, right now I'm thinking of the January 6th hearings because of when we're recording this. But like, I'm like, I don't have a strong opinion on that because I haven't watched it yet.

I will get her out. I will do it. There's just been other existentially looming issues on my mind. I haven't gotten to that one yet. And I don't want to feel embarrassed or ashamed that I didn't, you know, watch the five, like how many trials of the year have aired on television this year? Yeah, I guess I don't know if that makes any sense. But like, yeah, I just and I feel like usually when you say something like that, there's, you know, a couple people who will be like, oh, Okay, cool. Me either. It's not. I, because it's impossible. It's like, I mean, for some people, I mean, I know that there's a select few that are just like extremely good at staying on top of stuff. But it's, it's impossible to be a person that and be completely on top of everything all the time. It doesn't, you know, like the attempt, I think is important. And we should know as much as we can. But the whole idea of like curation and like,

Not only do I need to know everything, but I need to be able to speak to it in the most, like, it's like, okay, give yourself a little bit of space. Give yourself a little bit of time. The world will still be ending tomorrow. I have a good friend of mine who has done a lot of work in, like, active war zones. And one of the things that she says is to keep your peace, you have to limit the amount of news that you can sue, that you actively consume and just trust that you, if it's something big that you really need to have. on your radar, it will find itself to you because it will. Like if there's something that you actually need to know, like knowing every minute detail of each January 6th commission hearing, all the major players, that will bring you peace. And it actually might not even make you better informed. It will definitely make you anxious and it might even keep you up at night. And so just

knowing that like the broad strokes, just trusting that the broad strokes of what you need to know will reach you and it probably will, that's like a key to keeping your peace when things are falling apart and on fire all around us every day all the time. Totally. Yeah. Okay. That is,

you just like said it all in one sentence, what took me like an hour to like circle around to. But like, yeah. Like as long as, you know, I have like a few news sources that I trust. And I'm like, okay, I do trust, you know, the people working at X news source to tell me what I need to know in a way that isn't, I don't know, like, so much of the way that news is presented to us now is performance.

And it's sometimes feels, I feel like shame and like embarrassment for like not being able to engage with it in real time. But then I just have to remind myself, like the, I don't know, like the ramifications of what is being said and what is being said and what is being. shown and decided are incredibly real. The way they're presented is performance. And so, like, how can I, I need to be able to engage with the results. I have to be able to engage with understanding who is this going to affect. Like, what is there anything within my power that I can be helpful with or like, you know, just sort of sorting that out when any existentially stressful issue comes up, which it feels like happens every other day. But the way it's presented is so, I don't know, it doesn't feel productive. And it, like you're saying,

like it keeps you up at night and it feels bad. And you don't need to engage with the circus to understand what the result of the circus is. You know, I don't, I like, I'm not explaining it very well. But I'm trying to like develop a healthier attitude towards that and not feeling a shame for not wanting to watch a four-hour broadcast of, you know, MP4 is of the most horrific shit ever. Yeah. Can you tell us a bit more about LolitaPod, Ghost Church, and Becdellcast? Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah.

So I have a couple different podcasts that I've worked on, my weekly podcast. which Bridget has been a guest on before is called The Bechelcast. It's an intersectional feminist look at everyone's favorite movies. That's with my friend Caitlin Durante on IHurt Radio. It's my favorite. I really love doing it. And then I've also done a couple of solo podcasts that are more investigative and they're all like limited series.

And those are the ones we were talking about were Lolita podcast. which is a 10-episode examination of the book Lolita and kind of how it was wildly taken out of context by the whole world. And then my most recent one is about American spiritualism, which is like a movement that started in the 1800s that encouraged people to talk to the dead via seances. And it's called Ghost Church. I went to this community of elderly psychics in Florida

to do some research and looked into the history of the movement. And there's a lot there. I really enjoyed doing it. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Dodd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their Between Songs Ben. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was finding.

You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game. Game 7, Mark keep coming to you. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you eat if you had to start over? Real simple, poor man's, poor woman's food. Black beans, chicken, rice, plantains. On the podcast eating while broke, I sit down with celebrities,

entrepreneurs, and creators as they revisit the meals they once relied on. and the moments that shaped their journey. Named Best Food Podcasts at the 2006 IHeart Podcast Awards, the full season is available to binge. Right now, listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans.

I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human