There Are No Girls on the Internet - Janet Jackson’s trauma led to the creation of YouTube. And it says a lot about the internet

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

WE’RE DOING A LIVE  SHOW in NYC and VIRTUALLY on 5/28! Get tickets: Tangoti.com/live    You probably know about Janet Jackson’s infamous SuperBowl “wardrobe malfunction,” but did you know it inspired the creation of YouTube? Kimberly Foster, founder of For Harriet discusses how sexism and racism is baked into tech and what it means.   Follow ForHarriet on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/forharriet   [ In case you’re curious, Bridget’s favorite Janet Jackson song is “Together Again,” but her favorite Janet Jackson deep cut is “Again”  ]    Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Say hello at [e-mail] See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than add supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your

business. Call 844-844-I-Hart. Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is mental health Awareness Month and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I like was just so wanting to like be out of that phase out of my skin and I just like really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app, Apple

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then that There's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-HeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There are No Girls on the Internet is doing a live show at Caviot in New York City on Friday, May 28th. You can also attend virtually from wherever you're at in the world. We'll have super cool guests, a meet and greet, and a lot more. Go to tangoity.com slash live to get tickets. That's T-A-N-G-O-T-I-com slash live. and I cannot wait to see you there. Our bodies are open source software, right? Like, anybody can dig in, anybody can extract,

and it's just for the public good. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. I believe in the power of technology. I wouldn't make this podcast if I didn't. But I've also seen the ways that things like misogyny and racism are baked into the foundation of technology in the Internet.

And when so much of it plays such a big part in all of our lives, it's something we really need to contend with. And the early days of YouTube are a great example of exactly what I mean. So the story of how YouTube got started is actually a story about how a black woman's trauma would be the inspiration for an entire generation of streaming technology. It can tell us a lot about how we all show up online. My decision to change the Super Bowl performance

was actually made after the final rehearsal. and unfortunately the whole thing went wrong in the end. So you probably remember the Super Bowl halftime show back in 2004. Here's a quick summary of what happened. At a high point of a historic career that spanned dance, singing, and acting, pop music sensation Janet Jackson was performing at the Super Bowl halftime show alongside surprise guest Justin Timberlake. As Timberlake reached the final line of the song Rock Your Body,

which goes, gonna have you naked by the end of this song? He pulls off part of Jackson's costume, exposing her breast, to 150 million viewers for a fraction of a second. I remember the incident well, and the complete media firestorm that it created. Janet Jackson was the most searched person, per 2004 and 2005, and representatives from the television recording device TiVo said that not only was the incident the most replayed moment in the entire history of the device, but it also drove more than 20,000 people to subscribe to TiVo. Now, what I remember the clearest about this incident is Janet herself talking about how traumatic it was for her.

It's truly embarrassing to know that 90 million people saw my breast, and then to see it blown up on the internet the size of a computer screen. There are much worse things in the world, and for this to be such a focus, I don't understand, she told USA Today. This moment and our collective reaction to it, revealed a lot about intersecting issues that we sometimes have trouble talking about. Gender, race, sexuality, all unfolding against a media climate, ready and willing to publicly denigrate a black woman. To better understand this moment, how it led to the creation of YouTube and what it says about our current internet landscape for black women, and everybody, I turn to Kimberly Foster.

My name is Kimberly Foster. I am a writer, editor, Content creator, cultural, critic, a whole bunch of things. Kimberly has been unpacking Black Feminist Thought Online for over a decade with her digital community for Black women called For Harriet. You really have built your own lane using technology and digital media and the internet with For Harriet. And I know that this really came up at a time where there wasn't really a lot of spaces to get Black Feminist Thought online.

I would love to know how that came to be, like how you came to be this this woman who kind of made your own lane having an opinion on the internet. And what does it feel like to be such an early originator of black feminist online discourse? Oh, well, first of all, that's so nice. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. I think I've always been obsessed with the internet ever since I can remember. We first got on the internet when I was in kindergarten. And my mom is an engineer. So she was so pro-technology and so pro-computers and exploration. She actually gave me my first HTML book and is like, have fun, go crazy. And so ever since I was in elementary school, I've just been like, what is this? And I learned that you can connect to people and create your own

spaces and create your own websites. And as I got older, I was like, oh, wait, like, I can have my own magazine. I can have my own website where it's all my thoughts and I have complete control. And so I was all in on that in my teenage years, blogging and on the message boards and all of that. And then I went to college and I developed a very strong political ideology. In college, I discovered black feminism. And so I wanted to figure out a way to meld my obsession with the internet, my desire to share my unique viewpoints and my own Kimberly owned space on the internet with this burgeoning political ideology that meant a lot to me. And so I came up with the idea for Harriet, which would be a black feminist digital community where black women who thought

like me, because of course all black women aren't progressive, all black women aren't feminist. I wanted to create a congregating space where we could just talk about our lives and our experiences and our politics and the trials and tribulations, especially as a straight woman of dealing with men, you know. And so junior year in college, I launched this space and there's been no looking back since then. You were at Harvard, right? I was. Did you see someone who looked like you doing this? Like, it would have never occurred to me in college to build my own space online using the internet for other black women who felt like me and had my same perspectives. Was there, did you, because there just wasn't really anybody doing that. The only thing

I can think of is, um, Cadesia from living single having her own magazine, but we didn't really see that. Was there something that made you think like, oh, I can do this or this is a pathway for me or were you just blazing your own, blazing your own trail? Oh, I'm so glad that you asked this question, because I always say that citation, is a fundamental part of a black feminist ethic. So I'm so excited I get to shout these people out. So when I first decided that I wanted to make for Harriet, I was starting to creep into black feminist spaces online.

And they did exist. There were a couple that I loved, the feminist wire, which was a great collective of black feminist scholars in the academy and the Crunk Feminist Collective, which was another assembly of black feminist women, who were academics, my viewpoint I felt like was a little bit different because I was still so young, I was still trying to figure it out. And I wanted to create a way to bridge the critical,

path-breaking work that these women were doing in the academy, which I mean, I was still in college, with some of the pop culture stuff that I love, which is some of the normal, everyday experiences of women who maybe wouldn't necessarily identify with feminism but knew like, this shit is fucked up. Like, we gotta do something else. YouTube was initially started as a dating app where users could upload videos of themselves talking about what they're looking for in a partner,

but it wasn't really working. Co-founder Joide Kareem told South by Southwest that they actually had to find women on Craigslist and offer them $20 to upload videos of themselves to YouTube. But even with that cash incentive, people just really weren't interested. So the co-founders had to go back to the drawing board. Janet Jackson's Super Bowl performance happened in 2004. And about a year later, YouTube's co-founders were talking about wanting to watch it again, but they couldn't. Back in 2005,

there was really no way to watch the incident or really any online content on demand online, because this was before streaming video and also predates what we think of as viral videos. Unless you happen to be recording it on TiVo or on an old-school VCR, there kind of wasn't a way to see it. Kareem told USA Today, they thought, wouldn't it be great if people could see and share the video of the incident whenever they wanted? And with this, the desire to see and share

and consume Janet Jackson's breast on demand? YouTube was born a year later. I'm a Janet Jackson super fan. One of my first concerts. And so one of the things that people, I think, don't really know a lot about is the way that this one traumatic moment in her life really did shape

a lot of what it means to show up online. And so you talked about the way that YouTube was really inspired by her wardrobe malfunction at the Super Bowl. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So I too am a Janet Jackson stand. Shout out to

my mother when I was 12 years old. She took me to see the All for You tour, which actually was a little risque. It was some risque parts in it. But I'm so glad that She did that because it completely just opened up my mind and just made me just hone in on Janet as the originator, the queen of pop, do not debate me. And so I was really excited for the two-part documentary that she had a hand in because she's been so

historically private. And of course, I watched the documentary and then there's all of this commentary about it. And that commentary led me to go down all of these little rabbit holes. and learn more about the incident, nipplegate. And so I read, I mean, I watched the New York Times little, is it a, you know, those little, I hesitate to call it a documentary. It's like an exploration of the incident, watched all kinds of YouTube videos, listened to podcasts about it.

And I came away feeling differently. But really what struck me was how the furor over this. incident, the desire for people to see Janet Jackson's exposed nipple inspired these in like science, science of technology to like create this technology so that people could watch it like YouTube, right? So the founders of YouTube were like, hey, we need to create a platform where like people can see this lady's boob on demand. And then they're like, okay, well, let's dedicate our resources to creating this platform where people can see this woman's boob on demand, despite the fact that her entire life was derailed because of people's desire,

you know, like the simultaneous desire and repulsion from her boob. I felt like that was really interesting. And of course, YouTube blows up and it's now, what is it, the second largest search engine in the world. And then Netflix, you know, the founder of or one of the heads of Netflix was like, oh, okay, there's a, there's a market for streaming. So let's go all in on the streaming market that YouTube proved was viable. So all of this comes from the desire, a very distinct desire for people to see this one particular moment that ultimately derailed Janet Jackson. since career and changed her life. And it's so unfortunate for me as Janet Jackson stand that it's

almost like you can't even mention Janet without talking about Nipplegate when in reality she's so much more than that. But of course, as black women, whenever there's an opportunity, we're always going to be reduced not only to our most humiliating moments, but we're going to be reduced down to our body parts. And so I thought it was really important to note that that moment created these technologies that now we're spending all of our time on. Yeah, I think that you put that so well. And I do want to note, I think that when people want to disrespect and denigrate Janet, they always say, oh, she did that at the Super Bowl because her career was in the gutter

and she was just trying to get people talking about her. If your career is in the gutter, you're not performing at the Super Bowl. Like her career was massively successful way before that, you know, this idea that she was like a nobody who was just trying to get attention. And it's something I hate when people say that because it's just so verifiably false. I mean, this is the thing, and not to get me off in my Janet stand bag,

but I'm so glad that that documentary highlighted the number of records that Janet Jackson broke throughout her career. At one point, she had the biggest, she signed the biggest recording deal ever for a woman in pop music ever. Black, white, like, other ever. She was it.

There was like, she had two albums where there was like six top ten singles. Like, this is a huge artist selling out concerts all around the world. Like, it's easy for us to forget, particularly when it comes to black women's accomplishments, how enormous they are. But Janet was it. And so, yes, I so agree with you that the idea that she was. that she was somehow floundering or that she had to do this

because she needed money or attention or whatever. Like, she was the spectacle. Like, she was it. Sorry, I had to go off on that. No, I'm right there with you. You know, why do you think that it is not... Like, you were talking earlier about how things like Netflix and YouTube, there are websites that we use,

or technologies that we use, they're commonplace. We use them all the different. time. Why do you think the way that a black woman's trauma was sort of the foundation for these things that go on to be so ubiquitous in all of our lives? Why is that erased? Why do you think that's not a common knowledge? I think because black women's bodies, in particular, and our traumas generally are seen as public property. There is generally a sense of entitlement. Like we should just be happy to give these things over to sacrifice them that they are, you know, like our bodies are

like open source software, right? Like anybody can dig in. Anybody can extract. And it's just for the public good. And so there's no, like you mentioned, thought given to how is the person you're extracting from being harmed by this? In Janet's case, and obviously historically, I mean, that goes, that's centuries old. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel,

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's IHeart Advertising.

You can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.

Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, The hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything. Here, the Nick Dick and Poll show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Kugler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer-director. Who do you think he is? I don't know.

You meet the, like, the president? You think it goes to the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president. Those law crusette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at life.

It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time.

I actually thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Poll show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. I've seen the ways that misogyny and massagin noir, the way that sexism and racism intersect to oppress black women specifically is baked into technology. And it's not surprising to me, given how many technological innovations were inspired by sexism. For instance, back in 2003, a Harvard University student named Mark Zuckerberg made FaceMash a social media platform to rate women on their

looks. Here's what Zuck himself had to say. I'm a little intoxicated, not going to lie. So what if it's not even 10 p.m. and it's a Tuesday night. The Kirkland Dorm Facebook is open but on my desktop. And some of these people have pretty horrendous pictures. I almost want to put some of these faces next to pictures of farm animals and have people vote on which is more attractive. The site was taken down by Harvard, and a year later, Facebook was born. So we already know the world is full of things like classism, ableism, sexism, racism, and all the other isms that keep us from being free. And it's really tempting to be hopeful and think that technology won't just replicate these harmful oppressions. But Kimberly says it takes intentional unlearning

and vigilance to really see how these systems show up and intercept. And if tech leaders are unable or unwilling to do this work, they'll just end up creating technologies that recreate these same harmful systems. I believe misogyny, specifically massagin noir, like shout out to Moia Bailey, is baked into the foundation of so much technology and so much of the experience of being on the internet. And I really see this idea that YouTube was founded on this trauma that a black woman experienced so publicly is a great example of that.

Do you agree with this? What do you think about that? I think that the foundations of our society are built off of misogy noir. And because people are not doing the work to actively unlearn it or to actively wrestle with it or deal with their biases that it creeps into every facet of our society. And despite the fact that people who work in technology will leave themselves to be particularly progressive and forward thinking,

of course it seeps into those worlds as well. And so if we're not having conversations constantly about, hey, you are perpetuating misogy noir right now. It's just going to be there. I mean, it's baked into the cake. It's baked into our psyches. So yeah, it's pretty, this is depressing, but it feels like an inevitability because most people aren't doing that work.

So you see technology as kind of amplifying and elevating this massagin noir that's just already in society. And so when you build something online or when you use technology to build something and you don't intentionally work to dismantle that or unlearn that or unpack that, you are simply baking that same massagin noir into whatever you're designing. Absolutely. And it's massagin noir and all sorts of other bias. This is homophobia, transphobia, classism. It's all of that. We're just, it's easy to ignore if you don't have to grapple with it every day.

Yeah, and I, I mean, I feel like I see this. I'm like you. I love the internet. I grew up on the internet. The internet is, you know, my hometown in a lot of ways. And I am not really on it like I used to be. I'm not on social media like I used to be. And one of the reasons why is that I just see the ways.

that disrespecting black women, fat women, queer black youth will always be a winning strategy on social media. This is one of the more exhausting parts of showing up online as a black woman. Putting us down will always drive engagement because platforms are built without intentionally interrogating and unpacking things like racism and sexism. And even more broadly, if you've ever felt like you see more negative, divisive, extreme more inflammatory content on your feed, rather than positive, thoughtful content.

You are absolutely right. Researchers at Harvard analyzed 140,000, 358 tweets and found that negativity was about 15% more prevalent than positivity, and that negative tweets engaged more users. And a similar Yale study found that social media platforms like Twitter amplify expressions of moral outrage over time because users learn the language of outrage gets rewarded with an increased number of likes and shares.

And I see this a lot on Twitter. where people will tweet inflammatory things specifically because they know it'll be hard for the rest of us to avoid engaging with it. I see it in the way that like if you follow some of these accounts on places like Instagram where they'll have a post where it's like a picture of a black woman or particularly a picture of like a black queer child, right? And they'll post it knowing full well what they are doing, knowing full well that that is going to drive engagement. And it has this kind of the sheen of plausible deniability where they're not saying anything. They're simply posting a picture of a queer black child and, you know, asking people what they think. And I find that to be such an indication of the ways that social media platforms and digital platforms will always be able to count on disrespecting and denigrating marginalized people for engagement. And in fact, that engagement is incentivized and it's baked into the experience of using some of these platforms.

Yeah, it's an incredibly toxic cycle. The Internet, largely in social media platforms in particular, are fueled by outrage and abuse. Abuse happens. We see it. We experience it. We're traumatized. And then, of course, people are outraged. And that is the engagement circle, you know?

So it's abuse after abuse after abuse. You're trying to scold somebody, express your distaste, express your scorn, and you're typing your little fingers away. You might even, you know, this is a thing that I'm not sure we've reconnected with. Like, you're reposting abusive content to say this is abusive. So it just travels further and further.

And the outrage fuels the comments and the response videos and the posts. And we're all really and truly in a very, a horrible, I think psychologically really damaging cycle with how these platforms are set up. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I used to, when I first got on TikTok, I used to follow a lot of creators who their whole thing was, and no shade to these people. I'm not saying that like they're bad people, but it just wasn't for me. their whole thing would be, you know, look at this video of someone being racist. Like, like, and, you know, I guess I just, and I would engage with these videos, but they would leave me feeling so empty and so bad and so sort of distrustful.

And it just reinforced this idea of, you know, I can't trust. When I go outside, I can't trust people outside. I can't trust my neighbors. Like, it really fueled something kind of scary in me, I guess. And it made me realize I want more. Like, I want more from platforms. I want to be offered more than outrage and abuse and disrespect and denigration. Can't we have better conversations and better experiences online?

It seems like maybe we can't anymore. Oh, I know people hate the phrase safe spaces. I know that that's become kind of like a boogeyman like the word woke has. But I do think that increasingly people are trying to, forge spaces where they're not going to be inundated with trauma and awfulness and abusive content all the time. I think that is one of the reasons why platforms like Discord have blown up over the past 18 months. I know for me, I spend a lot of time on private communities like the Patreon community, which is hard, right? Because I understand

And you're always erecting barriers when you are putting things behind a paywall. But for my own mental health, for my own well-being as a public person who has experienced so much abuse, I just have felt better by saying, okay, I'm just not going to have this conversation out in the big world, out on the big internet. We're going to keep it on the discord. We're going to keep it on the Patreon where maybe I'm not. I can't trust all of the people who are there because, I don't know, some bad actors make it in. But there's some filters.

And I feel like that's increasingly what's happening. People are moving from the open internet, open platforms to Facebook groups, to discords, to patrons, to private communities. Yeah, I've definitely noticed that. I mean, I still have a Facebook. I barely use it. And the only reason that I am there at all is because of private Facebook groups. It's the only thing that keeps me there. And it's so interesting how we have really moved toward kind of like thinking about our internet experiences and spaces as more like campfires.

Like, oh, we're going to curate who comes. We're all going to have this shared interest. And that's what we're going to gather around as opposed to just, you know, public forums, anybody come on in. And, you know, I know that you've talked quite a bit about this idea of scale and the way that, that trying to grow things to be the biggest, biggest, biggest thing kind of will always be at odds with feelings like care and intention. And so it seems like one of those things where it's like, if you're doing something behind a paywall,

yeah, maybe it'll never be the biggest community with everybody there where you're making tons of money. And maybe that's okay. Maybe being able to have a little bit more intentionality around the communities that you build and have a little bit, little bit more of control over it in that way. Maybe that's okay and maybe not, maybe going into building these spaces with a goal that is not making them as big or as powerful or as lucrative as they can be. Maybe that's okay. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned incentives earlier and really the

incentive structures for everybody, including creators, are so messed up. And so I agree with you that there are things that I'm just not going to do anymore. I'm not going to make the video about, look at this horrible thing that just happened. Look at this black woman being abused. Let's be, I am not in that space anymore. It's just too harmful to me. Like, I just, I can't deal with it anymore. But I understand that so many creators, they see that that's where the engagement is, which means that's where the money is. And it is already so difficult as a creator, particularly as a black creator to make a living.

I see what people are doing when they're doing that. I'm speaking from a place of extreme privilege when I say, I can opt out of doing that stuff now because I've built up such a strong, supportive community of people who are saying, Kim, I value your voice. So I want to be in the community where we can talk more intimately about things that sometimes they are traumatic, sometimes they are hard to deal with. Sometimes we are going deep on misogy noir and all sorts of other

oppressions, but there's fundamentally an ethic of care in all of those conversations. I am so conscientious about how I facilitate those discussions, how I participate in them, who was brought into them. And that's really not possible when your only your only goal is to get bigger when your only goal is to get more views more followers more eyeballs everybody is coming to the conversation and a lot of those people are coming to it with malice and i feel so much empathy for the people who are stuck in that cycle because the internet is just not created for people to thrive and take care of their mental health.

That is so true. And I should just say the research is very clear that most social media platforms really do amplify and incentivize, you know, extremist content, inflammatory content, outrageous content that is negative over content, that is thoughtful, that is nuanced. And so I think what you just described, it's like a cycle where platforms are, have, have incentivized that kind of content and they're making money off of it. And it just keeps us all, you know, like you said,

stuck in this cycle that is not prioritizing care. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest,

S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Sighter, Idle help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll, hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life

makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.

And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air. So much. so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything, and me pretending like everything was fine.

He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car, and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him. Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So if you've ever wondered, I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast. That I have great news for you. We just launched our brand new newsletter where I'm going to be writing about things I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more.

I promise we will never spam you. You can subscribe to our newsletter at tangoity.com slash newsletter. And it's going to be like a useful newsletter, I promise. You can also support the show by checking out our merch store at tangoity.com slash store. Let's get right back into it. How do you think we get to a place where platforms and online spaces are not built on things like disrespect or, you know, outrageousness or being inflammatory or abuse, but can actually feel like care, you know, like the space that you've built? Or should we just be focused on, you know, building our own shit, as I know that you are a big advocate for? Man, people ask me this all the time. I think that one good place to start, this is a beginning and not the end, is I think that platforms need to be very serious about paying creators better, giving out money, giving out grants, paying creators. I mean, even when they do start to offer these incentives, like Instagram now has,

started offering incentives for reels and content and all of that. It's so little money or it's so there's no rhyme or reason to how you get paid and how much you get paid. If there was transparency around that, I think that that would be really, really helpful. But honestly, I don't think that we're ever going to get equity or anything that even looks like justice from any of the platforms that we have right now. I think that the C word is coming. Capitalism and the goals

and desires of these platforms are irreconcilable with the goal and the need for content creators, specifically marginalized content creators to take care of themselves, to be able to take breaks, to not have to exploit

every single abuse in offense. I just don't see I just don't see the possibility for that at this time. I think it's like tear it all down and try again. I mean, that's so often the answer when we ask these big questions, recognizing that it's systemic, it's institutional, right? It's like we need completely new paradigms and new systems. There's something that, you know,

I definitely advocate for people, particularly marginalized creators, but really anybody to take breaks when they need it from the internet, all of that. But you can't take breaks. or like self-care your way out of something that is structural. And so I think sometimes it's an unsatisfying answer that like, oh, yeah, we need to burn it all down and start again. But that's the answer. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to bullshit people, right?

Like, I understand that Twitter is always going to be about trying to optimize profits for shareholders. I understand that meta is always going to be about trying to get the most advertising and dollars trying to get the most screen time, right? The most daily active users, that's not going to change. So we just got to be honest about what we're working with here. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com.

There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer. and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,

rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from Iheart Radio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase out of my skin and I just like really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests, like Amelia Clark. When, like, young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever. My first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that. David O'Yello. I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion.

or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. Dennis Leary, Gaten Moderato from Stranger Things, Tena Monsu, Camilla Morone, Carrie Kenny Silver, and more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.