There Are No Girls on the Internet - Jeffrery Epstein, MIT and the Grad Student Who Spoke Up

Episode Date: July 7, 2020

You might know that connections to convicted sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein led to the resignation of the director of the MIT Media Lab, Joi Ito, after a Ronan Farrow exposé. But fewer people know that Arwa Mboya, a Kenyan virtual reality programmer and MIT student, bravely called for Ito to step down before Farrow’s piece. Mboya talks about how the bravery and community of women and girls gave her the courage to take a stand. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to Intercosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against minors and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. You've probably heard about American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted in 2008 of procuring an underage girl for sex.

In July of last year, he was arrested on charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking. He was found dead in prison in August. In addition to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton, Queen Elizabeth's son, Prince Andrew, and credibly accused rapist President Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech world, despite being a convicted sex offender. On September 7th, Ronan Farrow published an expose in The New Yorker that found that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or MIT, had a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein that had previously acknowledged,

even as officials knew he was a convicted sex offender, and that the university went to great lengths to cover it up. Now here's just some of what Farrow found. Even though Epstein was disqualified in MIT's official donor database, the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted him about the use of funds, and, by marking his contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly and within the university. Epstein appeared to act as a go-between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump money into MIT. According to Farrow, MIT's efforts to conceal Epstein's connections to the university,

went so far that staff referred to Epstein as Voldemort, or he who must not be named. Whistleblower Cygney Swenson, a former MIT development associate, told Farrow that the lab's leadership made it explicit, even in her earliest days with them, that Epstein's donations had to be kept secret. Staffers knew about MIT's relationship with Epstein. Prominent faculty advisor Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest. After Pharaoh's piece was published, Joy Ito, the director of the MIT Media Lab resigned. is fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein, MIT is opening an investigation into its ties to the financier and convicted sex offender. The announcement came just one day after the New Yorker revealed that

MIT's Media Lab was attempting to conceal donations from Epstein. Now, there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein, but this story isn't really about him. It's about courage, community, and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes, and most people credit Ronan Farrow with bringing their full scope to light. But even before Rodin Farrow's piece was published, women in the MIT community spoke up, and we should honor their voices too. To the future, MIT's Media Lab, a place that follows crazy ideas wherever they may lead. We get to think about the future. What does the world look like 10 years, 20 years, 30 years?

What should it look like? The MIT Media Lab is an important place. CBS even dubbed it the Future Factory. And it's where technologists Otto Mboya knew she had to be. Yeah, I came here because it is sort of a place for misfits, the Media Lab. It is interdisciplinary

and has sort of the intersection of tech and art and design, and that was what I was looking for when I graduated from undergrad. I worked for a couple years back in Nairobi, when I'm from, and became a VR developer on the side, on top of my job and needed to, I was sort of like looking for somewhere to find myself.

And I'd heard about the Media Lab and how sort of civic-minded one of the groups was called Civic Media. And our motto is tech for social change. And I was like, well, that sounds like exactly what I want to do. Yeah, so I applied and then it worked out. Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community of strong, resilient women. And that upbringing has been a big part of how she showed. up to the world today. Yeah, for sure. I mean, my work is always about women and it's always about women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit more general than that, but I have worked in Nairobi my whole

life. I've studied away from Nairobi, but always try to bring back my research and the questions that I'm asking to home and the women that I've worked with in informal settlements in Kenya. But, you know, that's just my research, but how I approach studying and how I approach being in big institutions is definitely sort of inspired by how I was raised by my mom and my grandma, and I have like a thousand aunts grew up in something of a matriarchy, I would say. So yeah, for sure. So you were raised in like a community of strong, badass women? Yeah, and like really scary ones too. So you look at them with a lot of love and admiration, but also a lot of fear. Ottawa works with virtual reality.

So that means she has to be able to imagine worlds that haven't even been seen yet. It's a spirit that drives her, both personally and professionally. Do you think that that sort of work has helped you kind of imagine a future where things can be better than they are? Yeah, I think so. I would say so. I think I've always sort of had that in me before I started playing on VR and AI. And I think those projects are sort of things that are, already within me as opposed to things that have made me think a certain way. And I don't know,

I grew up just reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men, actually. Both my grandpas are fantastic men and have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya differently that I, yeah, I would say it's totally in me. And, you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even so much that I was, so when I was sort of talking against my director, it wasn't even so much that I was imagining a different future. It was more like this current present isn't, something is off, something is not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up is, if something's not right, you fix it or you say something about it, but you don't sit around and do nothing. As a grad student in the media lab, Ottawa published a piece in the tech, MIT's

student publication about the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it, she called for the resignation of Joy Ito, the head of the MIT Media Lab. Her piece ran weeks before Ronan Farrow would go on to echo her points in his New Yorker expose on September 7th. The only difference is Ottawa called for Ito resign. And after Pharaoh's piece was published, he actually did. Did you ever feel like people have an easier time taking the situation seriously when it's reported by a white man? I mean, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate Ronan pharaohs work a lot and we actually got to meet him and we kind of talked about this. But, you know, Sinia Spencer, she was the real hero of the story. I mean, she was the actual whistleblower. And

sometimes people treat me like I was a whistleblower when I didn't whistleblower when I didn't whistleblow anything. I just had the same information that everybody else had and sort of said my opinion about it. And for sure, I mean, even on the comments on my article, like, there were so many comments I had to do with my race and ethnicity and where I'm from, as opposed to, you know, not agreeing with me and my ideas. It was very much like, well, you're not from America. You don't know what we're talking about. And then Ronan Farrow writes this article. And of course, everyone just jumped ship. And, you know, I totally understood my director resigning after that. I was just more shocked of how many people said, oh, we were wrong after the article. Because to me, it's kind of, like,

Like, we already had that information beforehand. And people had made up those decisions, their decision to support him at that point. And it's only when a powerful, and not just white man, but a powerful white man writes about it, that it's enough to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings or at least their vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview where you described your meeting with Edo, where he basically said, I agree with all the things that you're saying, all the things that you say I did, I totally did. You're completely right. except I don't think I should lose my job over it.

Yeah. And there were a lot of people who felt that way, and a lot of people still feel that way, because he kind of was the heart of the Media Lab. And a lot of people depended on him for their projects, for funding, for, you know, other people were coming into the Media Lab for the first time under his leadership.

So it makes sense that some people feel that way. I think the Ronan Farrow thing was interesting. thing because we had that conversation one afternoon and then it was that same afternoon that Ronan Farrow's article dropped. So he, between our meeting and him resigning was maybe four to five hours, like really not much. Yeah. So, you know, it was overall like really shocking, but to me that's, again, a power thing. It's totally different situation. If one first year master's student who, you know, has no power whatsoever, says you should resign, and it's a totally different thing if Ronan Farrow comes after you.

And he has a lot on stake. It's not just his job at the Media Lab. He has a lot of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that I think must have been in his head to protect. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was that made him cave in at that moment. It's easy to think about marginalized people who speak up in these situations as being fearless. But Ottawa actually remembers being pretty scared. and doing it anyway.

She drew strength from the courage of other women and girls on the continent. The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom because she didn't want me to write the article. And I don't like disagreeing with my mom, but we just did on this particular issue. And she was coming from a perspective of fear or trying to take care of her baby that she was sent to America to study.

Like, you know, she was scared that something might happen to my degree or that I might lose my visa. or something and not be able to finish. But I don't know, I didn't have that fear so much. And I just happened to be reading a really amazing book called Beneath the Tamaran Tree, which is by Isha of CNN about the Boko Haram Bring Back Our Girls' Story in Nigeria. And then a amount of courage there was so wild that it just so happened that this is all happening at the same time. and I'm seeing myself as such a small player

and seeing the thing that I want to do is not that big compared to some of the things that these girls went through and some of the things that they fought for against literal terrorists. And I was like, okay, if they have this kind of courage to stand with a gun to their face and not change their religion because it's what they believe in, and if I believe in this thing,

then the least I can do is say it with my chest. You know, so that was how I was feeling. So I was actually feeling like kind of empowered, inspired while I was writing it. I sometimes describe myself as a radical feminist, but there's nothing radical about it. It's just that the word feminist sometimes seems radical to people. But I just am a product of so many amazing women that it's not shocking that I search for even more inspiration from other women on the continent or on the world. After her letter calling for Ito to resign was published, things got rough for Ottawa. So what was the climate like for you at MIT after you published your piece?

It sucked. I mean, the very next day or the day after I published this article, like a website comes out saying, we support jury eto. And it's signed by like, you know, pretty much like every professor at the media lab. And it's signed by all, you know, my colleagues. leagues and all these people. And it's a direct response to my one article. And so, you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting, you know, some not nice comments, but I was able to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it really highlighted to me how fearful people can get when you speak

the truth or when you say your own truth. Because for me, a whole website springing up with, like, it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because one, student wrote an article is shocking to me. And that student has no power. Like, I don't know why there was so much fear or so much anger or so much defense. Because nobody else, there was lots of articles about it. There was lots of articles that were very nonpartisan and saying what happened. But nobody asked for him to resign, to resign except me. And it's almost as if, like, that one statement or that one article was like a wave through the media lab and everyone was like pushing back as if what I said might sort of break the whole media lab or make it fall apart.

And some people till today think it's my fault, like for sure. And, you know, there's nothing I can do about that. And I'm not going to sort of try to pander to those people. But I don't know, it just showed me, it really taught me the power of words. We'll be right back after this quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

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Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, You only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard herds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt Yardt. They're open.

Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me. Seem funny.

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Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Agency. The ability to know that we're the experts in our own body.

On the podcast, cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. I wholeheartedly think, you know, you hit 30. You shouldn't have to share one with anybody. Mm-hmm. From navigating friendships and healing to setting boundaries and prioritizing your mental health. These are real honest conversations. We don't always get to have out loud. Totally unreasonable with different parts of life, right?

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her space on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. By establishing financial relationships with respected organizations like MIT, Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection, and most importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got the protection of that kind of power, it can be hard to penetrate. Power, powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money. All of it makes it harder for people who exist outside of that power

to speak out about bad behavior. Why do you think the Media Lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? Do you think it was just the money and they didn't care where it came from? Or do you think it was something else? I know that some people knew and some people didn't know. So I can really only speak for the person that I know for sure knew, which is Joey. And the rest, I don't know. And, you know, he wielded a lot of power in this lab.

We do know for a fact that there were people who, including my advisor, Ethan Duckerman, who spoke out and said that this is not a good idea and said that we shouldn't take money from Epstein and they were ignored. I mean, the hard-cold truth is that money is power and there is a massive incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're going to get power by ignoring them. I think the other thing to remember with the EPSC in situation is that he wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I think a lot of the money that was an MIT report just came out on the funding issue. And we found out that Joey was actually trying to secure a much bigger part of funding for his own venture capital funds. So huge incentive to ignore what was sort of on the surface. And then the other thing is just, I don't think men get it all the time.

Like, I don't think, I sometimes, I really think that some people thought that it's just not that big a deal. Because they have no understanding on what that relationship, even in and of itself, but without money, means for the victims of Epstein. We have no idea how this consolidation of power represses the victims and silences them. It almost sounds like Epstein was trying to use his money to kind of create this cover so that if anybody ever tried to call him out on his actions, he could just be like, oh, well, look at all these powerful, influential men I surround myself with. In some ways, was really smart because he didn't actually have that much money. He wasn't a Bill Gates, but had enough to sort of know the right people and actually build a social circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen. And it was so strong that everybody wanted to be a part of it. And it was Epstein's name that you had to know to get sort of in that circle. Ottawa still thinks highly of MIT.

But the backlash she faced for speaking out against Joy Ito showed her that things are not always as shiny as they look from the outside. I think the Media Lab, you know, it's hard because I love this place. Like I've had a fantastic two years. I've learned so much. grown so much and I wouldn't change it for anything but I think this experience has just been such an example of that because it's so shiny on the outside like it's so glamorous it's everyone wants to be here but that doesn't that doesn't mean that we don't have issues institutional issues of power and race and class and all these other things that might make the play sound not so amazing

do you think that there should be more scrutiny on other powerful men who had like financial entangle with Epstein. I feel like a lot of them have sort of been able to skirt public scrutiny and public question asking about what exactly their dealings with this person were. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think, you know, from the out, I mean, because I can't speak for much more than MIT, but I know, you know, even Harvard had relations with took a lot of money from Epstein, but they just declined to even talk about it. And so it just, they sort of took the mom path and everyone forgot about it, whereas at MIT it was so widely talked about. And Epstein's network is so extensive that going through every single man who interacted with

him or a woman for that matter, actually, who interacted with him and took money from him and what they knew and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I don't know how to do that. But there should be a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether we isolate individuals within them or not. And I think that also has a lot to do with who's willing to speak, who's willing to come forward with information because when we don't know anything, all we can do is speculate and they have power and that doesn't really work.

So, yeah, I don't know. I feel like everyone should be held accountable for sure, but it's, I don't even know where you start with Epstein. You know, I almost wonder if this is part of the deliberate strategy of Epstein's, getting his money in so many powerful places and hands and institutions that untangling it almost seems kind of impossible. Yeah. And I'm a firm belief of nothing is impossible. But, you know, there's such a close link. And I'm not saying that anyone who took his money did anything more than that. But there is, you know, especially with the people who are closer with him, there is a link with those people and victims, you know. And I think right

Now what needs to happen is that the victims' narratives need to be centered, you know, and the people who have been hurt by Epstein need to have space to say, you know, this is how it was hurt, this is how I'm feeling, this is what I need to recover, and sort of if they feel up for it, these are the people who hurt me beyond Epstein. It's hard to admit that people and institutions that mean a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior. Joy was a beloved figure at MIT. And that made it that much harder for the community to reckon with the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered up for an abuser. Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and inspiration and resource to the media lab students and faculty that people didn't want to believe that, you know, he had done this thing that they didn't agree with.

And it was much easier if we just said, okay, hash-hash, let's sweep it under the rug and move on and pretend like this. happened. And so I understand that to some degree, but, you know, the world is like constantly changing. And I think if you're sort of always that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies, like it's always, it always comes from the bottom up. Like, it's always that change in institution is never going to happen by the people who, for who the institution is working. And the media lab was working for me. It wasn't, you know, I was having a great time. But I didn't have the same feelings about the director that most of my naysayas had. You know, I wasn't actually giving up, I don't know, funding for a specific project

by calling him out. So in other ways, it was easier for me than I, you know, I get why it was easier for me than other people, but for a place that calls itself the future factory, for a place that prides itself in imagining and creating the future, literally, the standard has got to be higher, and it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective, but from a human perspective, too.

So this is where it starts to look like the Academy Awards. So first I want to invite up the winners of the $250,000 Disobedience Award. The second largest cast prize at MIT, I would say, after the Lemelson Award for Innovation. So Tarana Burke and Sherry Marte and Bethann McLaughlin. With this award, we are recognized, their leadership and dedication in amplifying the voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment,

fomending positive change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance in the face of oppression and apathy. Thank you very much. In 2017, MIT started the Disobedience Award, a yearly award given to people in tech who speak truth to power. The award came with a $250,000 and no strings attached prize. In 2018, it was awarded to Me Too creator Taranaburk, Beth Ann McLaughlin, and Chera Mark's as representatives of Me Too and the Me Too and STEM movement that highlighted people speaking up against sexual harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass orb,

and in a particularly disgusting piece of irony, because of his financial contributions to MIT, convicted sex offender and serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award that same year too. I know you're infuriated now, but this is where the story gets a little bit brighter. My friend Sabrina Hersey-Esa is the kind of person I hope that you all have in your lives. Mangtor doesn't really cover just how impactful she's been in my own life.

She's a human rights technologist and the founder of Be Bold Media, and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women or speaking truth to power, even when she gets shit for it. Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she did read her story. A friend of mine sent me a link to Ottawa's op-ed in the MIT student newspaper, and when I read it, I thought it was so, at first I thought this was so beautifully written. And it was written from a place of love and leadership. And clearly, this was a voice of someone who cares deeply,

not just for women and children, but also for a community. Then I saw the arc of how her op-ed was being received in the MIT community and in the broader technology community. And that is when things started to not sit well with me. In Bridgett, our shared women in technology community, I saw Ottawa's op-ed being received as like, this is a brave call for a student. But it also, I saw a lot of echoing of helplessness from very powerful women in technology and a lot of ringing of hands and a lot of, oh, what do we do now or I feel hopeless?

And when I read Ottawa's op-ed, I felt the opposite of hopeless. I felt hope. I felt, oh, if this is what someone could say with so much to lose and so much on the line, then anything is possible. And then I saw it absorbed in the broader public conversation around Epstein and MIT. And I saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed at her. I saw Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem instead of, a blessing. And I was not okay

watching that. I saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like if she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa. I saw a lot of hate being spewed on Twitter. I saw, so the further the rings of influence went out, the more I saw

this woman's brave call of public leadership being received how most black women who are moral, who practice moral courage, in public spaces being received, and I was not okay with that. And you know me, and you know I've walked through fires in the past,

where that was the arc that played out, and I knew I could not in good conscious say that do nothing and be okay with that or say nothing and be okay with that. More there are no girls on the internet after this quick break. from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh,

you only got in because your parents made a huge, donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

Since you guys are middle aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not think. about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart, streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the

lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man,

hell get the flying. He run up the court licking his fingers why he got the ball. After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to point game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Agency, the ability to know that we're the experts in our own body. On the podcast, cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. I wholeheartedly think, you know, you hit 30. You shouldn't have to share one with anybody. Mm-hmm. From navigating friendships and healing to setting boundaries and prioritizing your mental health. These are real honest conversations. We don't always get to have out loud.

Totally unreasonable with different parts of life, right? Like, oh, have all three meals and make sure you're mindful during all of them? Absolutely not. During one meal, I'm standing. I'm standing and handing my children food. Because healing, empowerment, and resilience aren't just ideas. They're practices. And this Mental Health Awareness Month, there's no better time to pour back into yourself.

Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. Even though they had never met, Sabrina was inspired by Ottawa's actions at MIT. She remembered all the times in her own career that she's put out against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it. Speaking out takes guts and leadership. And Sabrina couldn't rewatch the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right. even as Ronan Farrow was praised for doing the exact same thing. And while his reporting was a big part of why Ido stepped down,

it wasn't Pharaoh who was risking his personal safety by speaking up. It was Ottawa. The thing about this that really struck me was not just the vulnerability of her visibility, like when she did step up and speak out and say something, she was met with not even no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger. but the invisibility of her leadership when a white guy says the same thing that she said, and he's not even a part of the MIT community,

his safety, Ronan Farrell's, his safety was never in question. And I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern of someone outside of a community and institution with prestige being validated as a legitimate voice. I didn't want my silence to be complicit in continuing that pattern. Sabrina thought that Ottawa should get some kind of recognition for her actions at MIT. That's when Sabrina got the idea for the bold prize. MIT has this thing called the Disobedience Prize.

It is a $250,000 cash award, no-strategist attack, given to social change leaders who speak truth in power and practice moral leadership and ethics. And I thought MIT has no right to say what ethical leadership looks like if they are letting this man stay in this role, if they're letting this happen to young black women in their community. So I was like, hey, I have a voice and I have power and I can do something and I can say something. I wanted this young woman to know that I see her. So and then I was like, you know what, why don't I give you? award. So I was saying, would it be okay if I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you? And she was like, that would be really sweet. Thank you so much. I wrote a letter that you see on boldprice.com

where I said that, you know, I do not know her, but I admire her courage. And that I wasn't okay watching a young black woman speak up and lead with courage and not only not be seen, but also be harmed for it. I think if we need to, there's the world as it is and the world as it should be. And if we want to build the world as it should be, then we need to reframe what leadership looks like so that when these events happen, people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors, they're seen as the future and they're seen as world builders. So I wanted to use my voice and my power and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from blame to leadership, from the world as it is to the world that it should be.

And that it is not just her right to speak out to protect women in her community, but also it's within all of our abilities to speak out and do the same thing. The other piece that I was, that did not sit well with me was watching really powerful people that we both know, not recognize their own power in agency. So I want, I believe in the power of invitation. And I don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice or ignorance, but the fact that an opportunity for them to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there. So I decided to create it.

We are going to refashion the disobedience. prize and we're going to make it the bold prize. And I called it the bold prize for three specific reasons. One, when Ethan Zuckerman first announced his thing, that's when I was like, someone should give him an award. The second thing, in Ottawa's piece, she uses the phrase, I stand by my advisor, is Ethan Zuckerman's her advisor. She wrote, I stand by my advisor and his bold decision to step down. And I was like, oh, that word bold. And then three, when I was in a situation where I was speaking out, again, sexual misconduct and racial injustice, one of the people who were complicit in covering it up

had the audacity to call me bold. And I thought to myself, yeah, you know, I am bold and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were. MIT's Media Lab is called the Future Factory. But do we even want a future designed by powerful people that would look the other way when it comes to abuse? What kind of future would that leave us with? the choices that MIT made to enable Epstein and be complicit in covering for sexual predator,

those were deliberate decisions and choice that were made outside of a moral compass. And so to somehow envelope that into, like, they get to be leaders on what ethics look like, And not only just what ethics looks like, but what the future can be in a whole. I don't want a future imagined by people who participate in systems like that. So I want to build a future with leaders like Ottawa who not only make choices to do the hard, see something hard and do it anyway, but are willing to absorb the blowback that comes with it because it's the right thing to do. through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over $40,000 for Ottawa

as the inaugural recipient of the Bold Prize. The average donation was $75. I was just so in awe. I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. But not just because, I mean, this was a stranger and not just any share. She was a back woman as well. And had just somehow like seen my pain from far away

or seeing the struggle and was like, I need to do something for this woman. And so that was the true, like, prize for me. It was like how many people came together to support my voice when I had felt for a long time that I was on the outside of things. I feel just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say, I'm one of the fun. I'm one of the donators of that. Oh, really? Oh, thank you.

You know, I agree. I thought the idea that Sabrina, who has been a really powerful force in my own life just personally, would reach out to you like that. I thought that was so beautiful. And it really goes back to what you were saying at the beginning of our interview. about sort of being lifted up by this community of black women and lifting them up as well. Like it's just, it is really special. And I think it was important for me, even though, you know, you and I had never met, it was important for me to let you know that people out there hedge are back.

We were rooting for you, like, watching what you were doing. Like, your bravery and your courage reverberates, you know. You never know who is. You never know who is going to be seeing what you did, and that's going to be the reason why they speak up. Thank you. Yeah. I think that's also been another, like, big thing that I've gained is you just never know

whose life you're going to touch or who, like, where your words will reach. And there's been so many, like, random people who are, you know, saying what you're saying, like, oh, you gave me the courage to do this or you gave me the courage to write this and to say this and whatever. And I've been like, okay, like, this can be a movement. Like, the bold prize can be a movement. Like, it can be something that people aspired to get. I didn't have a vendetta against Joey, like, personally either.

So it wasn't like I won him fired or to resign and would only be happy once that happened. Because clearly this issue was deeply structural within MIT as well. So I felt vindicated after, like, maybe, you know, time after when, you know, with the bowl prize and with the letters of support and, you know, by people encouraging me to, like, keep speaking my mind. But we still have so much work to do, like, as an institution here. What's your advice for other women about speaking truth to power even when it's tough?

The first is I really think it is a lonely process and it isn't easy. I've, you know, I learned that firsthand. And I think, this might sound like kind of. mythical, but I think drawing power from others before you do what you need to do is so important because you're going to need so much energy to keep going and to not backtrack in what you said because people don't agree with you. And so like if that's reading or if that's talking to actual people or if that's listening to Lizzo, like literally drawing power from other women in history and time because there's so many who have done the thing that you want to do

is so important, it gives you stamina. Institutions like MIT are powerful, but so are women. So is community. Women being in community with each other and lifting each other up and inspiring each other to speak our truths, well, that's powerful enough to create new systems. And women can envision bolder futures and brighter realities when we come together. There are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Had. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. For more podcasts from IHeart, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day, head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the Iheart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast

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This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Wilfredel from PodMeets World.

And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. Again, we are experts.

Listen to Podmeets Tworl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.