There Are No Girls on the Internet - Jeffrey Dahmer to Gabby Petito: Is it possible to make ethical true cr ime? BEST OF TANGOTI

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

What is going on with our obsession with true crime? From social media sleuths to conspiracy theorists, Jessica Dean—aka Bloodbathandbeyond—joins us to discuss what happens when the darkest moments of a stranger’s life become a trending topic.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just a heads up. This episode mentions violence against women and death. There are no girls on the internet as a production of IHeart. Art Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So some of you all might know that I am very interested in our national obsession with true crime content.

Now, to be clear, I don't have any kind of big problem with true crime. You know, I've consumed true crime content, and it's not like I think that you're morally superior if you don't watch true crime. But I do think that we should be critical of the true crime that we consume. because it can often be normalizing a whole lot of messed up stuff. Racism, copaganda, the works. And it can also not be particularly respectful to survivors, victims of violent crime, and their families. For instance, even though the new Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix series is careful to show the victim's point of view

and also pretty clearly cast the racist, classist, homophobic criminal justice system as the real villains, You know, for letting Jeffrey Dahmer get away with his crimes, even as his victims escaped and told police pretty clearly what was going on. So even while that might be a good thing, the families of the victims of Jeffrey Dahmer say they were never consulted about the new show and that watching it actually re-traumatized them. And people of color who worked on the series say it was a bad racist experience for them. Lifetime was similarly slammed for airing a film dramatization of the life.

and tragic death of Gabby Petito, who in August 2021 was killed by her fiance, Brian Landry, while they were traveling together on a van life journey across the United States. Gabby Petito was only killed about a year ago, and already Lifetime is putting together a movie about her tragic death. And it does raise questions about true crime and who gets to benefit from the stories and trauma and harm that real people experienced. Now, this is personal to me, Someone I was close to was murdered by a serial killer, and I hated watching the ways that people who did not even know her capitalized off her story and death. But is it possible to make true crime content that is actually respectful of survivors and the victims of violent crime? Let's listen to this conversation that we had about it last year.

When I was 21, a good friend of mine went missing. I'm not sure it's something I ever completely got over, and I still kind of think of my adult life. as divided between before her disappearance and after her disappearance. That's how much the experience changed me. Watching my friend's story be picked apart on Nancy Grace's true crime television show was one of the most surreal experiences of my life. I just remember how foreign the person that she was describing seemed to me. I didn't recognize my cool, funny friend at all.

By the time I found her body, I had stopped watching programming about her case altogether. I just couldn't keep listening to people's try to tell her story without her in it. This week, authorities found the remains of Gabby Petito, the 22-year-old woman who was documenting her travels to National Parks with her fiance in a van. Now, this story is heartbreaking, and it also feels really familiar to me.

Gabby's tragic story ignited social media. Now, many people were just legitimately trying to get the word out about Gabby's disappearance. But I was also really troubled by the kind of content that other folks on social media were making that included everything from baseless conspiracy theories to psychics claiming to have information about her whereabouts. Now, these weren't just random one-off videos that maybe got a handful of views here or there. They were going viral on platforms like Twitter and TikTok. And I just really didn't like it.

It felt like some people were gleefully picking apart this tragedy with no regard for whether or not it was actually helpful, ethical, or respectful. And I think that's because when it comes to the genre, that we know as true crime, in the kind of online conversation that it sparks, it can be easy to forget that they're actual people and actual tragedies. So what happens when the darkest moments of a stranger's life are turned into content? Jessica Dean, also known as Bloodbath and Beyond, has been making videos on TikTok about some of the less ethical aspects of the true crime community for months.

You might remember her from our episode debunking viral myths around sex trafficking. fed up with the ways that content creators talk about tragedy like it's a puzzle or just an interesting story. She's been using her platform to urge for more careful, respectful, and thoughtful conversations around crime. I want to say right up front that this is a tough conversation and I do not have all the answers. But I spoke to Jessica about what happens when true crime sparks a frenzy of internet sleuths and viral conspiracy theories and how we can all work to create ethical conversations about crime that can lead to actual systemic change. So my name is Jessica Dean. I go by Bloodbath and Beyond primarily on TikTok, which is my largest platform.

And I've actually been on the podcast before. I'm excited to be back. I'm so grateful that you invited me back. And I guess today we're talking about true crime. Yes, we're so glad to have you back as a friend of the show because I honestly can't think of a better person to help me unpack all of these feelings I've been having about true crime content. You know, I'm not really a big consumer of true crime content myself.

and I know that you've been really vocal about some of the problems with the genre on TikTok. And I guess I just feel like it exploits a very real anxiety that women have that tragedy is lurking around every corner. And I always really take issue with content that exploits and plays on our anxieties when it can also spark real-world behavior like amplifying conspiracy theories

or mobilizing internet sleuths who try to solve crimes without necessarily stopping to ask if it's actually a useful precedent. So I guess my first question is, What are your thoughts on all of this? What are your thoughts on true crime? And why do you make videos trying to amplify the ways that true crime can be really unethical? Yeah. So I think it's important, like right off the bat to save myself a little bit of headache later, that I want to be clear that not all true crime content is the same, especially on TikTok. There are some creators of true crime content that I find make at least what I would consider more palatable and what I think is more genuine content. But a lot of my videos I had made in the past were kind of hyperfixing. and really shining a light on some of the rougher stuff that you can definitely find out there. And so, like, with that out of the way, I think it's probably important we talk about some of the more problematic,

popular stuff that definitely goes viral. I find things ranging from true crime accounts that are dedicated to, like, frosting cookies. Like, I think they're a professional baker, and they'll be frosting cookies while they talk about some poor woman that was brutally murdered by her boyfriend, and they kind of make it, I don't want to say lighthearted, but it definitely has a very lighthearted atmosphere about it. Like, oh, look at me decorating this cute little cookie of a puppy. And it feels to really take away from the seriousness of the situation. I've also found accounts that are dedicated to somebody, you can find it on Amazon, somebody published like a coloring book all dedicated to different types of serial killers.

And I think they tried to advertise it as some sort of like educational material because I think it gives like a little blurb of each serial killer on every page. But it's also still a coloring book, so it feels a little morbid. And oftentimes these people who are making these videos, they'll have themselves talking over these videos, and the attitude about it just seems very off. They've got this very lighthearted, almost fun, ha ha, crazy how this happened 10 years ago, kind of attitude about it. And it's always been driving me really crazy because not to get into too many specifics about it, but as somebody who is actually pretty close to a very high-profile case. If I saw somebody making content about that specific high profile case, I could not be

disgusted. So I can't imagine that people who had an even closer connection to these high profile cases that are covering might come across this content and how they might react or how that might make them feel. And it's it's truly unfortunate because I often hear kind of as a reaction to that is like, oh, they wouldn't see it. Well, I saw, I've seen several videos related to the case that I have a connection to and they don't make me feel great. And I think it's really important that we remember that especially if a lot of true crime content creators will come with an attitude of respecting the victims and trying to bring awareness to situations, especially if they're potentially ongoing. But that's kind of hard to, that's a hard pillow to swallow when you also look at their content. You're like,

if I were the person affected by the situation, I would not feel comfortable with how you're covering the attitude you have or just the atmosphere of the content in general. So, that was the big driving factor for me to highlight some of the more nefarious parts of the true crime community. And I always want to make sure that people understand that, like I said, not all true crime, not all true crime content is the same. And it's really important that we help uplift the content that is more ethical and is speaking more politely about it. But one of the biggest factors in that is highlighting the worst parts and the kind of instances we want to be avoiding. Absolutely.

And I'm so glad that you brought that up. You know, I think that it's so important for people to remember that you're talking about actual people and like their trauma and the and like their community members who are left behind to like pick up the pieces. And, you know, I think I think there was like a really, frankly, tasteless shirt or something about Jeffrey Dahmer. And I think it was your TikTok where it was like, that wasn't that long ago, you know, the family members of his victims are very much still alive.

And like you think they don't have social media. You think that it's so far-fetched that they would see, you know, tasteless, crass shirts that people are selling with like cutesy little slogans on them. I think it can be, I think when I see true crime content that clearly does not take into effect that account that you're talking about real people who, some of whom can, you know, as you're, as you said, like, will see the way that you're talking about their loved ones who were no longer here and like the worst most dark parts of their experiences and just sort of being so callous about that really doesn't sit well with me. Absolutely. That was kind of my

tipping point and not to like get too much of my own personal life but the reason that the Jeffrey Dahmer shirt really stuck out to me is because I actually currently live in Milwaukee and that Jeffrey Dahmer was from Milwaukee. So I don't know if it was the proximity to the crime that kind of made me feel this way, but seeing shirts that made very lewd, sexual, and very humorous jokes about it, I was like, why, why, one, are you comfortable selling this? Like, the excuse of, oh, it's just dark humor, learn to take a joke, it can only carry you so far. And you can sell that shirt. I'm not going to stop you. But I am going to remind you that these people were human beings and that Jeffrey Dahmer predominantly targeted gay black men

and he killed and sexually, violently sexually assaulted children, I'm going to remind you of that. And you kind of have to live with how that makes you feel because that's just reality. And I think that helps snap a lot of people back into like, oh, this might not have been great. But there are people who are inevitably going to just use the it's dark humor, get over it, excuse, regardless.

And we just kind of have to live with that. But, I mean, if reminding people helps, I'm not going to be upset by it. Yeah, I mean, how would you, if you were wearing, happened to be wearing one of those, like, awful tasteless shirts making, like, making a joke about Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes, imagine, like, bumping into, like, a family member of one of the victims, like, you better be, like, what, I wonder if these people would be how they would feel about explaining, oh, it's just a joke, it's just dark humor,

to their face, that they actually came in contact with these folks. I think that, like, perhaps it can feel like you're so removed from these people, like, they don't even necessarily seem like real people whose feelings or whose perspectives you even need to take into account. It really just rub us me the wrong way. Yeah, there was actually a, I believe it was a bar. I don't want to say it was a restaurant. I think it was just a bar in Milwaukee. It's a really historical building.

It's very iconic. And they actually got in a lot of controversy a few years ago. They were running like a Jeffrey Dahmer, Cannibal-themed tour in the city of Milwaukee. And somebody had mapped out that they were only maybe like three or four miles away from Dahmer's old apartment. It's since been demolished, but they were like a stone's throw away from it. And it took so much public pressure to be like,

the family members are still in this city. They probably drive past your bar. Why would you do this? And the amount of public pressure it took is pretty sad, but eventually they caved. And it kind of really helped the city, Milwaukee reelback and be like, okay, maybe we shouldn't have Jeffrey Dahmer-themed food and drink and tours

and make all these board games and all these. these things. Like it really helped kind of put that into perspective. So I hate when you kind of have to lambast or you have to put one figure on a like on a pike to be like, look at this terrible thing. Because like this is a business. I still, I don't want these people to go jobless. But in an instance like that, sometimes it does take publicly shaming one large group of people to get the rest of the people to realize like, hey, maybe this isn't cool. Yeah. That's so interesting. I mean, I want to switch gears a bit and talk a bit about the case that I feel like is really just taking off on TikTok. The tragic situation happening with Gabby Petito.

By the time this comes out, you know, I know the last update that I saw was that they had found remains and they were consistent with her, but it wasn't clear if it was or not. I want to say right off the top of the conversation that, you know, what happened to her is a tragedy. I, you know, I don't know the specifics of what has happened, but, you know, it's tragic and horrifying. And, like, my heart goes out to her family and to her community. And I guess I wonder, you know, I'm sure you've seen them too. all of these very, it almost seems like every time there was a new update, I was seeing new TikToks on my for you page. Some of them were just sort of like by the book, like, here's what's going on, you know, just like news update. And like, I didn't really have a problem with those. But then I would

see these other videos that almost seemed kind of gleeful or like excited. I can't even really describe it. It would be like, you would think they were talking about like a new episode of a show they like, but they're actually talking about like the like disappearance of a young woman who is a real person. And I can't really explain the why I, I just like really was surprised to see this. And I was surprised to see how much it took hold. You know, I'm a bit older than you. So I remember when Natalie Holloway went missing, I was in college. And it was. was like the around the clock coverage of her disappearance, people were like, oh, well, it's because she is a pretty white girl. And, you know, there are so many different, you know,

indigenous black and brown women who have gone missing in the same area that certainly have not gotten the same level of, you know, attention that this case has gotten. And that's not to take away from the fact that I'm happy that people are, you know, really motivated to find her and that they're, like they're talking about her case. But I can't up but wonder, like, is there a way that people can talk about this situation that just seems kind of ghoulish to me? Absolutely.

You're hitting on all of the points that I've been trying to get across on my TikTok. So like you said, just to make sure that we're all clear, like we are very happy that Gabby was able to get the social media attention that she did get. And I think it can, to an extent, it can highlight the power of social media because there were so many posts out there being like, hey, this young girl is missing. Here is her name. Here is her face. Here's a couple of identifying markers. And this is where she was last seen. That's such critical information, especially if you're in that area. This is a little bit more unique because it kind of had like a transnational. Like it was two states very far away from each other.

But especially if you're local, that can be really useful. Somebody who happens to see a TikTok about this girl who happens to see a piece of critical evidence like how we actually experienced with this case that is so crucial and that's so important i never want to downplay how important that is but at the same time it has this is such an intense boomerang effect that starts to come back around and we did see so many videos of people with just outright the wrong attitude uh very like you said gleeful, almost giddy, very excited whenever they could be the first one to break the next piece of information, which was usually just purely speculation with nothing to back it up. And it, I don't know how to word, but I'm going to say.

It's frustrating to see that kind of content because you're always going to have that on the internet, no matter what you're talking about. There's always going to be people when you have the entire world at your fingers who take things the wrong way. But these videos were going viral. And I think that's one of the biggest criticisms I've got and one of the biggest pieces of backlash I've got is why are you fixating on these total rando crazies who have no followers? And that's not the case. I'm highlighting videos that have had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views, yet somehow it seems like nobody's calling out the tone. And I think it really speaks to the larger point of TikTok is a platform you can go viral on very easily. It is very easy to make content. The bar for entry is set in incredibly low. And so you have people who are by far, far from professional journalists making this kind of content. But then at the end of the day, they want to be put in the same category as journalists. And they're like, I'm just breaking the news. I'm just trying to spread awareness. Be like, okay, now you're starting to march in this territory of professional journalism,

yet you're not holding yourself and nobody's holding you to remotely what could be considered journalistic standards. And like any journalist who puts out a story that's absolutely crass and inappropriate. They're going to receive backlash. If these TikTokers want to be held in the same regard, they should be prepared for the same exact backlash. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite.

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I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of my Cultura podcast network available on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I saw one of the videos where somebody was referencing L. Woods, you know, that scene at the end of Legally Blonde where L is able to be like, oh, because of her, you know, her perm. She couldn't have been in the shower

because her curls are intact. And it was in reference to a Instagram picture of Gabby with blonde hair with like her roots had been done so her roots were not dark. And again, I think that referencing, I love legally blonde. I think like referencing yourself as an L. Woods type

or any reference to that, to like a comedy when we're talking about a missing person. I think it's just not good. It's a terrible taste. It's just in bad taste, you know? Exactly. And I think like, I remember back during the Boston bombing, at that time I was like very

active on Reddit and Redditors were so convinced they had found, they had like solved the Boston bombing. They thought it was this guy who had gone, who had gone missing his family was looking for him. And they were like, oh, the pictures are the same. And it turns out it was not true. Like it was just, they got the wrong guy. this family who was already suffering from their, you know, their family member being missing had to go through this process of being like, he's not the Boston bomber. He is missing, but he's not the Boston bomber. And it was just a case of like, they got the wrong person. They, they, you know, internet sleuths just didn't know what they were doing. And so part of me, I mean, this is where it gets kind of complicated and I don't necessarily have, this is just my opinion. I don't necessarily have the like right answer. I'm just, I just have a lot of questions.

I saw on Twitter someone saying like, oh, well, there's too much emphasis on some of the unsavory aspects of the true crime TikTok community. But they're over, they're glossing over the fact that like Gen Z TikToker, like young women and girls broke this case open and, you know, they really cracked this case. And part of me is thinking like, A, I'm not sure if that's true. B, when you glorify internet sleuths, you also have to take into account that internet sleuths have like ruined people's lives, got the wrong person, you know, just gotten it wrong because they're not actual, you know, investigators.

There's people on social media or on the internet. And I also, I mean, I don't know how I felt about that. She basically said that the reason why people are being so hard on these TikTokers is because they're mostly women, like young women and girls, and that we don't like young women and girls. And so it's just sexist. And I thought it was an interesting sort of devil's advocate position. I'm just not sure I agree. I just think that like, it's unsavory. And I don't find it unsavory because it's women and girls doing it. I find it unsavory because it's not a good thing to be doing, I guess. That was a pretty big reaction that

I've been seeing online is TikTok cracked this case. These internet sleuths were the ones who did it. had a very similar air to, I hate to be referencing a Netflix show in this specific situation, but it's terrifyingly accurate, is the show, don't fuck with cats. It was this case of this woman who had zero experience, had no idea of really what she was doing, but fell down this rabbit hole and ended up actually solving a very complicated, pretty much dead end series of murders. And that was very impressive. And it's kind of scary because even that woman has come out, and said like, hey, this was purely coincidental. Please don't try to mimic what I was doing.

Like, I didn't know what I was doing. I could have gotten really hurt. I could have accused the wrong person. This just happened to work out perfectly. And so it's really frustrating to see the people on TikTok who are now, I don't want to say taking credit, but are definitely patting themselves on the back for having cracked this case. And which, as far as I understand, at least when we're recording right now, what the case was is that the biggest piece of evidence they received to help find this poor girl's remains.

a few days, or just yesterday, wow, time is weird. I was just yesterday that she, there was some like van life YouTubers who made very similar content to Gabby, who had seen all these stories online about how Gabby was missing and then realized they happened to be in the same national park as her at roughly the same time. And they had a bunch of unedited raw footage from their trip that they were going to put up on YouTube. So they scrubbed through all this unedited footage and realized that they actually found, like, clear shot of what was Gabby's van.

And they sent that to the FBI. They had posted online about it too. The FBI followed up on that, went back to the same exact spot. And that's how they ended up finding her remains. So that's one of those instances of like the story being on social media and blowing up as big as it did truly did help in that specific instance. At least bring that tip to the proper authorities who were then able to look into it and identify what it actually happened. but that doesn't negate the insane amount of problems that come with those same exact internet sleuths. And it's truly frustrating to see the same people that two days ago were conspiring that Gabby was actually a serial killer and that she was murdering other people and is now on the run or another conspiracy I had seen is that she was just doing this all for attention, are now very quick to jump in the pool of people who magically cracked this case.

and that's so ungodly frustrating. I cannot put into words how angry that makes me that the same exact people who were claiming she was doing it for attention are ready to say that they're the ones who found her remains. That's, I mean, I can only imagine how frustrating that is. And yeah, the shortlist of completely baseless conspiracy theories I saw people saying on TikTok doing it for attention,

she was killing people. Her, I guess, fiance or partner had to be guilty because he liked Fight Club. Another serial killer who, another serial killer might have been responsible. Like, I don't know that there's any kind of like link. They were just like, oh, there's another, you know, another couple was murdered around there. Maybe it's the same person. You know, just, I feel like when you traffic in just like baseless conjecture to them, be doing a bit of a victory lap, it just seems very incongruous to me. Like, I've seen the same

thing that you're talking about where people are now kind of like, I don't want to say taking credit, but really being like, wow, my videos just wildly speculating, they really helped. And I'm not, I'm not sure if that's the right takeaway here. Exactly. There's, I don't want to name drop anybody on a podcast because I don't want this person receiving a ton of hate. But there was one individual on TikTok who had made over 40 videos about Gabby in less than six days and was very quick to boost any of these random theories. Anytime anybody through speculation her way, she would immediately boost it, make a video about it.

And a lot of her videos were getting hundreds of thousands of views. And she is now the impression I'm getting is she's like, we did it, guys. We got Gabby Justice. Now let's go after the next person. Like, let's just keep going down the list of missing persons. And I was like, this is not a healthy way to go about, like, helping. Like, there's nothing wrong with being like, I want to help bring awareness to missing persons, especially kind of circling back how you said there were a lot of black, brown,

and indigenous people that do not get the same level of attention. That can be a really well-intentioned attitude about how you present yourself online. But you were very lucky about how this Gabby situation played out. Because, like you said, with the Reddit situation, all these boss and bomber conspiracy theories that they had going on, it did not end well. And it's not unreasonable to assume that we could have a very similar situation on our hands if the internet through mob justice, vigilante justice, whatever you want to call it, starts to all jointly come to the conclusion that somebody who's potentially innocent in a situation is then so aggressively harassed online

that they're possibly driven to do something unthinkable. It's rough to think about that that could happen and how ready and how excited people, especially on TikTok, are right now to do exactly that. Yeah, that's a really good reminder. And I think part of me, like the part of me that's interested in why humans do the things they do, I can understand why people almost seem excited to piece together what happened in this situation. It almost seems like it's like a puzzle or a game. And I can understand why it makes people feel very validated to be like, oh, we are crusading for justice for this young woman who is not here to fight for herself. Like all of that feels very noble. So like, I want to be clear that I can really understand the reasoning behind why people get, why people act the way they do when it comes to this kind of thing.

I really can. But I think that those kinds of feelings can be. sort of intoxicating. And when you're intoxicated on a feeling, when you, when you feel like you are, you know, crusading for justice, I think that sometimes, you know, the bigger picture can get missed and you can sort of like miss exactly what you're talking about. What happens if somebody's wrongly accused? What happens if you're actually making, you know, an investigation work? Like, what if you're actually impeding an investigation by whipping up so much social media frenzy? So I'm happy that in this case, it seems like it might have gone okay.

But I don't want that to make it seem like, oh, it's good to have a social media-fueled, you know, mob justice-style internet sleuth frenzy. It's always going to end up okay. I feel like that's a really dangerous precedent. Exactly. And especially talking about just like the possible implications of something going this viral. like the O.J. Simpson case. That was one of like the most iconic high profile cases. And because it was covered on literally every inch of the news, every magazine, every newspaper, it was absolutely everywhere, that actually dramatically impacted how the courtroom played out. Because how can you find a jury

of impartial jurors when every single person has heard about this story and every single person has come to their own conclusion. So I can imagine. imagine that if I pray that Gabby finds justice and we figure out exactly what happened and this potentially leads to somebody being tried in court, the more viral this story is and the more conspiracies that are popular, the harder it's going to be to find a group of 12 people that don't already have their own opinions. Absolutely. I have to show you something that so I don't know what your Facebook feeds look like, but I know that mine has just been any little update on this case, a new story. And so I'm

in Washington, D.C., right? I'm not anywhere near where this happened. On my local Fox affiliate, Fox 5, D.C., I'm going to show you this picture. I don't know if you can see it through the camera. And the headline says, Rainbow appears where authorities

discovered body believed to be Gabby Petito. A rainbow appeared in the area where authorities earlier Sunday discovered what they believed to be the body of Gabby Petito in the Grand Teton National Park. And part of me just thought, like, It's very clear to me that any new angle, they are going to get as much eyeballs,

and they're gonna use this story to get as much eyeballs and clicks as possible. Like, if it's an actual update on the case or an actual update in her disappearance or, you know, something like that, sure. But part of me was like, who, like, you're, like, you're, like, writing an article about a rainbow appearing, making it, like,

I just really had a problem with that, story and I was like, wow, they really are any new angle. They are wasting no time to make sure that gets in our feeds because it's almost like they're, it felt like they were feeding this frenzy or this appetite for new content about this case. And it didn't matter if it was actually a breaking update. It didn't matter if it was actually like relevant to the case. Personally, I don't think a rainbow appearing in the sky is necessarily going to be relevant to this case or even like timely local information from my local news source here in D.C. but the fact that they were like surfacing this to me, I was like, well, they really are just trying to have a steady stream of content related to this.

Not just important breaking, you know, information about it, but just like anything. Like, oh, here's what the weather was like when they found her body. Yeah, that's a rough one. And that even marches kind of back into the territory of a lot of people who say, how are these online internet sleuths who just report every five seconds on the newest update, whether it's true or not, any different. local news stations and there is an argument to be had for like news stations tend to have this problem too they tend to milk stories for everything they're absolutely worth but that criticism of them is out there and public and maybe it's not getting enough attention and it's not getting enough people talking about it as it deserves but that doesn't make the people online who don't even have remotely any

professional experience in this free from that same amount of criticism to say like oh he did it too is not get out of jail free card from you also being held liable for some of the content some random person on the street might make and I I tend to get a lot of criticism in the game of like hey this isn't my day job I'm just making random videos on the internet why are you mad at me and I totally get that I'm somebody who makes random videos on the internet too I didn't plan on having a quarter million followers I still have a day job and it's I get it but if you're going to keep that platform, prepare for the criticism. That's just, that's what's going to come with it.

Yeah. That's such a good point. And I think like it reminds me of something else I learned from your video, from your, TikTok about this is that like sometimes particularly on YouTube, but I do know on TikTok as well, you know, your TikTok can be monetized. Your YouTube can certainly be monetized. Part of me was like, is this just people kind of like making money off of someone else's trauma and someone else's pain and someone else's tragedy?

Like, you know, I can understand the incentive to like report on every little thing, be the first time report on a breaking thing, no matter if it's true. You know, every little speculation, make a new video about it. If you are trying to, you know, gamify that to get more eyeballs because it leads to more money. I mean, that's definitely, we know that is how some of these platforms work. Absolutely. And comparing, not to do this for a second, but to compare the amount of money that you can get between platforms, TikTok is one of the, lowest paid social media platforms. So as far as like raking in the cash, TikTok's not necessarily the best way to do it. But that doesn't mean that you can't make money on TikTok. I am no longer

monetizing my content. But when I did have monetized content, anytime I broke a million views on a video, I could get anywhere from like 50 to 200 bucks, depending on how many comments, how many likes, how many times it got shared. So if you go back to like what I was saying, there was a girl with over 40 videos and all of them had hundreds of thousands of views. You start doing the math that can add up really quickly. And that's not to say that people's content doesn't have value and you shouldn't be paid for your work. But especially if you are being paid for your work, you should be held to higher criticism. Because now, hey, you're making money off of this. If you want to just report on exactly what happened, I can't fault you for doing that. And I'm not necessarily mad that you're

making money, but as soon as you start getting into the conspiratorial, the speculative, the outright wrong information, then, hey, I'm going to remind you you're making money on this. You should probably try to be ethical about it. There was one girl in particular who she's since taking her video down and she has apologized, so we'll give her credit for that. The girl who popularized the theory that Gabby was actually a serial killer, that's horrifying. And I cannot imagine her family seeing that.

I feel bad even mentioning it on a podcast, but that happened. spread that conspiracy theory. And she took her video down, but it's still all over Twitter. It got millions of views. She probably made a decent amount of money on that. And it's like, okay, I understand you're sorry. In hindsight, you feel bad, especially after they found her remains. But you still made money on that.

It'd be kind of nice if you donated it. I don't know. That's just me. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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But there's so much more to me than me. I'm an actor. I'm a comedian, and recently, I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike! I'm a comedian! I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff rant and recommend some of the most legally

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Hi everyone, I'm Cheryl Strait, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside.

We're coming into this world, fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it.

Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm on this kick lately of like, if you have a platform, even if it's a platform where you're not expecting to go viral, maybe you don't have that many followers and you just, you say something and you're like, oh, now I've gone viral. Platforms come with responsibility and like, it is your responsibility to be a good steward of your platform and not just use it to spread baseless conspiracy theories,

particularly that are that harmful to the family of someone who has gone missing. Like I just like, it's just completely irresponsible. exactly and it's it's really sad and it kind of ties back into before this whole gabby situation happened because I don't want to linger on that too much because it's kind of a larger conversation about true crime but I was making a couple of videos that like you had said before this had all happened a few months ago talking about like just some terrible things in the true crime community I was finding on the internet and kind of going back to like oh the Jeffrey Dahmer t-shirts or like the serial killer merchandise these coloring books books. These people are outright making money off of people's tragedies. And I think that's a lot more black and white, ethically irresponsible than somebody who's making content that kind of just talks about an active case and an active situation. So I like criticizing them for how they make their money more because it's a lot more like, hey, maybe we shouldn't make a coloring book of a child reddeter.

Yeah. I mean, I am going to say, if you're making coloring book. glorifying a child predator, you're an asshole. Like, I'm not going to say it should be illegal, but you're an asshole. Like, the jury is not still out. If you're making, if you're selling shirts that say, cutesy little slogans about Jeffrey Dahmer, you're not my kind of people. I'm not going to, yeah, so completely agree with you there. And I do think it is much clearer.

Like, if you are using your platform to make content about true crime and you're monetizing them, okay, like, I, I have questions, but all right, but it's so clear when you're like, oh, yeah, I mass produce coloring books. I produce T-shirts. It's such a clearer. I'm glad that you compared the two because it's such a clearer example of, like, harm, I guess, like, making money off of someone else's tragedy. So in your take, you know, if you are someone who wants to make true prime content or, like, just generally, like, content that raises awareness, how can you be sure that you're doing that in a way that it's respect. and ethical.

So I think that was a question I had for myself for the longest time, especially because when I started putting out criticisms, it wasn't necessarily like the most poignant criticisms. It was honestly kind of me rambling like, this is kind of messed up. Why does this exist? And then I had a lot of people asking me like, oh, well, if this isn't ethical, what do you consider to be ethical? Is there a way to ethically consumer produce true crime content? So I've spent a ton of time mulling that over.

And it's actually been kind of helpful because there have been various true crime creators who have reached out to me and been like, hey, I've seen your content. I would 110% agree with you. I don't like that kind of stuff either. I'm trying to change it. Can I get your support? And I've been very hesitant to boost any one specific true crime content creator on my own platform. But I have seen people who I think are doing it in a slightly better way. I've seen a lot of, like, the most common form of true crime content is through a podcast.

We've got things like my favorite murder, last podcast and left, all those incredibly popular podcasts. And there's a lot of smaller ones out there that right now they're really trying to break through that focus entirely on victim advocacy. They talk about police reform. They talk about prison reform. Like, they're truly not just talking about, like, hey, it's crazy how Jeffrey Dahmer, like, murdered a bunch of people a couple decades ago.

That's not the entire episode. They're talking about, hey, Jeffrey Dahmer did. murder a lot of people a few decades ago. Let's talk about why that happened, what failings happened with the police, and why none of that has changed yet, and why Milwaukee really needs to get their stuff together. And I think that angle of the content of what systemically allowed this to happen, what created this environment where these things occurred, and what is still occurring in our society today, and how can we fundamentally change things so that these things do not continue, I think is some of the best true crime content out there.

And I think it does have a genuine aim to produce change. So I genuinely love that kind of content. And I have overwhelmingly seen that that content is predominantly produced by people of color because they have that much more detailed in-depth perspective. So pretty much any true time content creator within reason who is a person of color, I've immediately felt a stronger attraction to the content they make because they tend to have that heavier focus on that aspect. I am so glad that you said that because, you know, in thinking about it, I know that I'm not

a huge consumer of true crime, but the content that I do consume, I think it's got to be content that is comfortable critiquing systems and particularly systems of power and asking questions about how these systems fail victims and survivors. I know that so many true crime podcasts will just repeat what police officers say or just repeat police reports verbatim. And it can kind of become this kind of copaganda where they're just like, oh, well, the police said this, so that's got to be true. And I think good, true crime content really has this opportunity

to not just take the police at their word, not just take these systems at their word, but instead critique these systems and ask questions about how they really do fail victims and survivors every day. And so I want to be asking questions, like what systems works to fail Gabby and all the other missing and murdered women and girls out there? Like, how are we supporting victims and survivors of domestic abuse?

abuse and violence, how are we making sure that they're protected and actually do have support? Are we creating a climate that leads to folks like this to be more vulnerable in these kinds of situations? Like, I want to know what systems failed these victims and survivors of violence and crime so that it's not repeated and we can actually learn something to make systemic change that leads to less tragedy and less harm overall. Exactly. And I think another aspect from the racial issue that I think doesn't get highlighted enough,

at least in the white spaces that I tend to find myself in a lot, is that content creators that tend to have an incredibly heavy focus on white victims is something that needs to be seriously reevaluated, especially when we're talking about national news coverage. I know that a lot of people will make the argument that in Gabby's situation, she was a social media influencer, so that had a bit of an effect on how disgust her situation was. but we cannot ignore the fact that people of color, men or LGBT individuals do not get this kind of coverage.

People who aren't conventionally attractive do not get this kind of coverage. And podcasts that go out of their way to highlight instances like that or just not necessarily podcasts, but content in general, that goes out of the way to highlight those who are less likely to get coverage in the first place. I hate to say it, but just what everybody knows about Jeffrey Dahmer, just about everybody knows about Ted Bundy. they may not know the finer specifics, but is it necessarily worth your time to go into that kind of content over a 10-part series when you could be spending that time possibly talking about an active missing person who could really use a bolster in voice and a fresh reminder to their local police department that people still care and people are still watching and just giving the facts of what's up, making sure that people are aware, like, hey, this is the individual looks like this is where they were last seen. It'd be really awesome if people didn't forget that this is still a problem. because those marginalized individuals never get that kind of attention. Oh, absolutely. And actually, you know, I've seen recently folks making that criticism of the Gabby Petito case.

And so I've seen a lot of true crime contact creators sort of, I will say like trying to respond to that. So they'll be talking about Gabby's case and then be like, oh, that's similar to this other case that involves a person of color or a, you know, a non-white victim. or an LGBTQ person. And I'm here for it. Like, I'm like,

if you have a platform and that you can use to get the word out about these cases that are not getting as much attention, I think that's great. But I can't help but wonder, like,

why weren't we doing it all along? Like, why did it take that nudge of like, you know, there are, there were 710, you know, missing and murdered indigenous women and girls in that same area. Talk about them as well.

Like, I'm happy that folks are boosting this because I think, I think, you know, it could really, like, revive interest, you know, but I just have to ask, like, why did it, perhaps we should be interrogating why it took a nudge, why it took that, that kind of, that kind of line being sort of like in the consciousness of how we're talking about this case to make that, to have folks that are making a true crime content start generating awareness about these other kinds of cases. Exactly. And I do, uh, very pessimistically, of fully expect that once the coverage of Gabby kind of dies down that this conversation might die and anybody who's willing to keep that conversation going and not letting people forget, well, I think that is the biggest uphill battle, I think is absolutely noble. Like, I hate that a woman had to be put in that situation and had to get the national coverage she did to get people to talk about it again. But there have been people of color talking about this the whole time. And nobody was ever listening to them. And it's so

frustrating that the only time they get the microphone, even if it's for a short period of time, is when something tragic and horrific happens to a white woman. Like nobody, nobody deserves to happen. Nobody deserves to have happened to them what happened to Gabby. And it's frustrating that the consequence of that is this is the only time that people who have been focusing on that issue this whole time finally get to speak. Because they will be immediately shut down. as a, why are you making this about race? And it's like, I, it's, it's been about race this whole time. I've been talking about this whole time.

A white woman passing away tragically doesn't change what I've been saying. Jessica, I think you so much for your work and your perspective. Like, I wasn't really sure what to expect from our conversation because I just had a lot of thoughts and, like, feelings and having trouble just even like processing them. But, you know, I find that your work really helps me articulate my own thoughts and helps me process, you know, in highly charged times, helps me like process and reconnect to like what I'm actually thinking. So thank you for your work. Where can folks follow you? And what are you working on these days? So right now I have a hodge project content. I still do make

a lot of trafficking awareness videos and I talk a lot about trafficking misinformation. That is on my TikTok at Bloodbath and Beyond. And then that is my handle on all other socials. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts.

American soccer is about to explode. The World Cup is coming. Ramers sending on to Ernie Stewart the chip. I'm Tab Ramos. I'm Tom Boe. On our podcast, Inside American Soccer, you'll get the real storylines, the biggest decisions,

and the truth about the U.S. national team. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals. Listen, Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tab Ramos on the IHeart Radio App Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hiring. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that Game 7, Marquis keep coming to him. He's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the I Heart Reef.

radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Strayed, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we, too, can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart, radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.