There Are No Girls on the Internet - Joe Rogan and Spotify’s Big Misinfo Problem

Episode Date: February 4, 2022

Disinformation researcher Abbie Richards explains the big issues with Spotify platforming Joe Rogan’s misinformation. We’ll be back for our new season on March 1st! Support the show by buying merch: https://www.tangoti.com/store Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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wherever you get your podcast. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a podcaster who makes a podcast about misinformation, conspiracy theories, extremism, and how they impact marginalized people, I feel like it's time to weigh in on Joe Rogan. So in case you don't know, Joe Rogan's podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience, has a nasty habit of platforming misinformation and bigotry. Rogan and his guests have amplified lies about trans folks, women, climate change,

the list goes on. But right now, his misleading and incorrect statements about COVID are what's got him in the spotlight. Rogan brought on serial misinformer Robert Malone, who was already suspended from Twitter for spreading inaccurate information about COVID, to promote the quote, defeat the mandate rally in Washington, D.C. last month. Rogan discouraged young people from getting vaccinated, which is especially troubling given the average age of his listenership is 24 years old, and, according to data from Washington State, unvaccinated 12 to 34-year-old. olds are five times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated. Now, hundreds of doctors and public health professionals have published an open letter to Spotify,

who exclusively publishes Joe Rogan's podcast, calling the streaming company out for the way the podcast they produce has spread COVID misinformation and asking Spotify to establish a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on its platform. India, RE, Roxanne Gay, Joni Mitchell, and others have joined Neil Young in taking their content off Spotify. In response, Spotify released a pretty weak clarification of their misinformation moderation policy, which doesn't really do much to address the kind of misinformation that Rogan spreads on his podcast.

In a statement, Spotify CEO said, it is important to me that we don't take on the position of being a content censor while also making sure that there are rules in place and consequences for those who violate them. Now, in that statement, Spotify makes it sound like Rogan is just another podcaster on their platform, But he's not. Spotify exclusively produces Rogan's show and pays him have reported $100 million a year to do so.

So what happens when someone has paid $100 million to spread conspiracy theories, misinformation, bigotry, and lies? My name is Abby Richards, and I'm a misinformation researcher slash TikToker. Abby Richards is a disinformation researcher, science communicator, and a friend of the show. And she says that Spotify's misinformation policy leaves us. a lot to be desired. So, Abby, I'm so glad that you were able to join me today. I have gone kind of a while without talking about Joe Rogan, and I think it's time to talk about Joe Rogan. It's time. Well, first of all, just ask someone who is a misinformation researcher, what are your thoughts on his show, what he does? Like, what are your initial thoughts? You know, I don't

Love it. I'm not like a, I'm not a J.R.E. bro. I have just witnessed like way too much misinformation and general kind of bigotry and hatred on that platform to then go ahead and be like, oh, I just love how he interviews people. So personally, yeah, I'm not, I'm not a huge fan. Are you? No. It's so funny. A few months ago, before this Spotify issue was really in the news, I was at a hotel bar with my producer, Mike. And we were, I don't remember where we were coming back from, but we were getting a drink, and there was this very obnoxious guy at the bar,

like drunk, loud, obnoxious. And he was trying to really engage us in conversation, and we were sort of not having it. And I think for some reason we were talking about Burning Man, Mike and I, and this guy was like, oh, hey, I have a buddy who goes to Burning Man with Joe Rogan every year. And we looked at each other and Mike just went, gross. Why would you tell us this? Had no idea that we also have a podcast, basically, which I feel like is a little bit of like an anti-Joe Rogan, like a podcast where we talk about the dangers of things like misinformation, conspiracy theories, extremism.

Like he could not have picked a worst way to try to impress us. Oh, yeah. I mean, your podcast is literally, there are no girls on the internet. And Joe Rogan is literally, we have no girls on this show. Yes, exactly, exactly. So, you know, what did you think about seeing all of these high-profile folks from Neil Young, India Ari, now Roxanne Gate, removing their content from Spotify in reaction to their, you know, really unwillingness to do anything about the misinformation that he spread so often? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's great. I think it's been surprisingly powerful. I wasn't necessarily expecting it to have as big of like a, a. ripple in the in the water as it did what were your thoughts on their I'm not even going to say that they renewed like it just seemed like they were saying like oh we do have a COVID misinformation policy but it wasn't for me I didn't really feel like it was the kind of policy that you would

expect a platform of that size to be putting out you know in now the what second year of a pandemic yeah you would expect it to be a little bit more coherent and thought through and in the fact that it took all of this pressure to get the tiniest bit of transparency into the existing policy that they had is, it says quite a bit about how reluctant these platforms are to be transparent about their policies. And then, so really what they did is they published their existing policies, which I'm going to also say, like, weren't, they were quite lenient to the point where it seems as though you're able to say that like the vaccines cause death, but just as long as you don't say that they were designed to do so. And, you know, they don't really cover wearing masks. And they don't cover

a large, large range of medical misinformation that Joe Rogan has spread on his show. Great to see the transparency, but I would like to see more coherent and thought out policies. And then in addition to that they just like said they were going to put content warnings on misinformation, which isn't really shown to be effective. Like I don't consider that a solid strategy to combat misinformation, especially not when you're literally funding that misinformation yourself. Again, it seems to illustrate to me that Spotify is kind of hoping that folks won't ask too many questions about the nature of the relationship they have with Joe Rogan because I I feel like it's one thing to put content,

it's one thing for Twitter to put a content warning on a user's tweet, right? To say like, oh, well, this is you know, this tweet contains inaccurate information. It's another thing for Spotify to invite Joe Rogan to exclusively make content with them, pay him handsomely for that content, be the only place where you can find that content, and then kind of pretend like, oh, we can just put a content warning on it. That's the, as far as we can go in terms of dealing with it. Like, that seems like the bare minimum to the point where it's almost meaningless. It's almost nothing.

And, you know, I do think that they're kind of hoping that people won't ask too many questions so that they can continue to treat Joe Rogan like any other individual content creator that they have on their platform, as opposed to what they actually are, which is like his publisher, I think. Yeah. Did you see the leaked speech published a few hours ago where the CEO went into a whole spiel about whether or not they are a publisher or a platform? And it's like, I mean, even as if you were just a platform, you still should have some

responsibility for what is on your platform. But you also are specifically funding, like sponsoring this platform. particular content on your platform. So you might not have editorial control, but you still have some liability there. I think that the statement they released was very much like an attempt to make the problem go away, just really hoping that this inaction looked enough like action that everybody would wave their hands and be like, oh, that's fine, I guess. I have seen a lot of toothless tech doublespeak in my day that. that really means nothing. That was really, that was like the Mona Lisa of toothless tech,

meaningless, double speak PR, right? Like, let's say a bunch of things. Let's, let's sort of say, like, we're listening. We hear you. Definitely make a nod to free speech. Say, like, make a nod to the fact that you're not going to cave to other people's voices. It really hit all the marks. And I do. I agree with you. I think that they're kind of hoping that this problem will sort of go away on its own or that like Joe Rogan put out that video statement. They put that a statement. I think that they're hoping that that's going to be enough. You know, The Rock has chimed in and said, like, perfectly put. Like, let's have to be on your show soon, Joe Rogan.

And I think it's just, I think for me, it's really depressing because I believe that Spotify is reestablishing a precedent. And that precedent is that if you are, like, there is a market for lies. Like, if you tell lies and spread misinformation and extremism, there is a market for that. And so I think the question we need to ask ourselves is like, are we comfortable with our media, our media landscape really handsomely rewarding and amplifying lies for profit? And I think it's, it's done so much to make our media so much more toxic. Absolutely. And you think about how Joe Rogan really promotes controversial figures. And of course, he claims he doesn't intend to do that, but like controversy brings in eyes and ears.

And like it's quite clear that Rogan has a history of platforming people who promote misinformation, promote bigotry, climate change denial, a lot of transphobia. Like so much transphobia. It's and it's not just like allowed. it's being paid for, like, for exclusivity. Like, Spotify was like, we want this and we want you to be special so that you attract more users to our platform. Like, they, he serves a role there to bring more users to them and make money for them. And they are fundamentally profiting off of that kind of controversy.

And I'm very frustrated. It is frustrating. And, you know, you brought up a good point. obviously the conversation that's really been in the news right now is COVID as a COVID misinformation. But I guess my question is, I have listened to a lot of Joe Rogan show. I know that the transphobia is is so alarming. Like the amount of lies about trans people that that him and his guest traffic in is pretty appalling. The climate denialism, you know, he did apologize for this.

But when he said that leftists were the one setting wildfires. fires out in the West, right? Like things like this. I guess my question is, why do you think that it's the COVID misinformation specifically that really sticks when we talk about this issue, but the lies that he tells about trans people, the lies that he tells about climate don't seem to stick quite as much. Because in my perspective, those things are also medical misinformation and public health misinformation. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of systemic inequality behind it. I think it's, I'm happy to see that we are having this public conversation about his medical misinformation on the platform, but it is fundamentally really limited to COVID.

And it does seem like people are more motivated by the pandemic than necessarily racial issues or trans issues. And I think that speaks to what the public fundamentally cares about. And I hate that. We are up against so much when it comes to inequality that we really have to, when it comes to an issue that pertains to marginalized people, we really have to shout for people to hear us. You really have to scream for people to hear us. And I think that COVID, you know, I think it's easier for some folks to see a demonstrable untruth about COVID, like, oh, young people shouldn't get vaccinated and say, oh, that's a problem. But not, but see the way that Joe Rogan will tell a demonstrable untruth about trans people. Like he has said that trans people do not experience

real discrimination. They bring it on themselves. That's demonstrably untrue. I think that there's something that makes it easier for folks to respond when it's about COVID. And it's just easier for it to go unchecked, unacknowledged, or for maybe people to say like, oh, that's just his opinion or, you know, I think that it shows how much further we have to go in terms of helping people understand that misinformation is often identity-based, that's often racialized and gendered in this way. And it's really, really harmful, like real world harm, the same way that COVID-health misinformation is. Yeah. And I mean, and we think about how a lot of this criticism started was with, like, doctors and scientists and science educators who already had existing platforms and are already,

you know, exist within this realm of privilege and having their voices elevated, which is great. I'm happy to have doctors and scientists' voices elevated. But I do think it speaks to just how their voices are treated as, you know, more worthy of attention than necessarily. large groups of marginalized people who have been speaking out against Joe Rogan for ages now. Oh, that's such a good point. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear you. your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-Eyheart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without

Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stopped by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass,

get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp

with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother,

and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a pyramid. An apazal chin here you do. So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast. How hard can it be with the Adamia Riva,

where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex?

Dating at 45. How hard can it be getting naked at 50 with the new guy? That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be?

I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. feminists, black women, queer folks, trans folks, they have been saying for the longest, and also me personally as a podcaster, I've been saying like this Joe Rogan's, like, his shtick is harmful. And I feel like people didn't listen and it's Taylor's oldest time. Like, folks don't listen until it's kind of everyone's problem. That is something that we talk about extensively on this show. But I also think there's this idea that I think that Joe Rogan really perpetuates that he's just asking questions. or, you know, he says like, oh, I'm not a doctor, don't take my advice, or, you know, my guest says this, and I don't know enough to push back. And as someone who makes a podcast, I know that that's not true, right?

Like, I'm not an expert on a lot of things, but I decide who comes on my show. I decide, you know, who to platform. And it's just this kind of feigning of ignorance that I feel is so powerful, but so frustrating. Yeah. I go back and forth on whether it's famed or whether he just really is like that much of just an idiot who's just fallen upwards and upwards and upwards into having podcasts where for some reason people listen to him talk for three hours. It's like I can't really tell because it's such a. perfect excuse to be like, well, I didn't know, you know, how was I going to know that when I had this guest on that I booked and supposedly should have researched what kinds of things they were going to say before platforming them and, you know, maybe listen to the edit of my podcast before

I posted it? All of those very basic things that I do for my TikToks, I would expect him to do for his world's largest podcast, but apparently it hasn't occurred to him that he has any responsibility. Yes. Oh, you just put that so wonderfully. I think that's one of the reasons. I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm just crapping on another podcaster, but it's something it's very frustrating to watch.

And I know that so many people who make content, whether it's TikToks like you or podcasts like me, they put so much. effort and craft and care into it. And so hearing like, well, I don't even listen to them. I don't even prepare. I don't know what I'm going to say before until I say it. It's like, wow, we really are having different experiences when it comes to creating our content. Something fundamentally different is happening here. And I think part of the reason why I almost buy his act of just like really being that ignorant is I think that like he is somebody who just would never have ever.

been affected by the sorts of misinformation and hatred that he allows on his platform, and therefore he doesn't have any understanding of why he needs to have responsibility. Like, I could maybe understand if he, like, really smokes as much weed as he does seem to, like, how he could end up in that position of just like, I don't know, I just like, listen, I just listen to other people talk and post it. But like, you have a responsibility. And if you don't, if you refuse to take that responsibility seriously, then like, why do you deserve to have the platform that you do?

That's such a good question. And platforms, they do come, like, even if you have a small platform, it comes with responsibility. And I think that's something I've been so frustrated about in this conversation. I was doing like a news interview about Joe Rogan and Spotify. And it was a little bit of an adversarial, like the interviewer, definitely was more Team Rogan than I was. And he kept asking, like, isn't this censorship? Like, isn't this cancel culture? And I kind of couldn't get my head around how we got to a place where asking for someone that has a massive platform that is listened to by millions of people

that has paid $100 million to make something. Asking for really basic fact-checking or basic, you know, editorial standards is equated to censorship. Like, I don't know if you read Roxanne Gay's amazing piece in the New York Times today about why she's pulling her podcast from Spotify. She said, there's a difference between censorship and curation. When we are not free to express ourselves, we can be thrown in jail or even lose our lives for speaking freely. That is censorship. When we say as a society that bigotry and misinformation are unacceptable, that people

who espouse these ideas don't deserve access to significant platforms, that's curation. We are expressing our taste and moral discernment and saying what we find acceptable and what we do not. And I feel like we've kind of lost the thread in a way that really benefits people who spread misinformation that the second that you're like, wait, well, we should expect better than lies and bigotry and extremism. Immediately there's going to be a choir people who are like, that's censorship, that's cancel culture, that's bad. Yeah, I am so glad that you read that quote because if you didn't, I would have. It was such a good piece.

and I really highly recommend that everybody go read it. It's really interesting that this has, it's really interesting, but not at all surprising that this has been turned into some effort to cancel Joe Rogan when that was never really what anyone has asked for. First of all, define cancel. I can't. But like, we were asking for misinformation,

policies and for those to be implemented and transparent on the platform, and like, yes, Joe Rogan's podcast should also follow those policies. I don't think anybody is saying, like, he should not be allowed to ever speak again. He should be thrown in prison. Like, nobody's saying that. Like, I don't think anyone even has a problem with his stupid getting high and having comedy podcast. I'm very pro getting high. Yeah, I'm also pro getting high. Like, if you want to get high and talk to your dudes about wrestling, Joe, go ahead. Like, I just don't need you high speculating about vaccines being gene therapy. Like, just, just, I'm not saying don't have a career doing this. It seems like for some reason, some people find you very entertaining. So go ahead. It's, it's just the,

the lies and the hatred that I feel like we could avoid. I think Roxanne Gay's piece put it really well that people who are trafficking in lies and hatred, I don't love it, but okay. I think those people are always going to be there. They shouldn't be the loudest voices in the room. They shouldn't be the most well-paid voices in the room. They shouldn't be the most amplified voices in the room. And when they are, I feel like that's when we really have a problem because it just takes up so much oxygen from the room. Like, we don't really have the space to have the substantive, thoughtful conversations that we could be having

when the person with the loudest megaphone is just screaming nonsense. Yeah. And, like, you're never going to be able to make every shitty opinion go away. But those shitty opinions don't necessarily, like, deserve giant platforms and to have access to like every ear in the country. Especially like for people who are vulnerable to those sorts like sort of bigotry and misinformation, if you are somebody who's vulnerable to that and then you listen to Joe Rogan

because maybe you really look up to him. Like and then you're fed lies and racism and transphobia. Like he's, that, that's predatory. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL. Night Comedy Guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Run a business and not thinking. about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-Ehart. What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows, without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid.

He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to a point game. on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a perimenopausal chin here you do. So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast.

How hard can it be with Deanna Maria Riva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that Ness was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45.

How high can it be getting naked at 50 with the new guy? That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of my Cultura podcast network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's get right back into it. We can't deny that he, people like him. He's very popular. He has a huge audience. And I think part of the reason why that is is sort of the same old story when it comes to misinformation. I think that bad actors and people who traffic and misinformation, information, they find groups of people who feel, who are or feel overlooked or, or, um, underserved. And so whether it's a Spanish speaking population that doesn't have enough Spanish

speaking news outlets and so bad actors know like, oh, we will give you lots of news. It'll just be lies. I think that Joe Rogan maybe really taps into a group of younger males who do feel legitimately unseen and unlisted to and like no one is speaking to them. And so I think that he has been able to shine a spotlight on these folks and make them feel seen and heard and validated in ways maybe other media sources like legitimately maybe are not. And so I wonder like what do you think about that? Like why do you think he has such a big listenership? Why do you think he's so popular? And what does it say about our media climate? I definitely agree that he must be serving some He's serving and meeting some emotional and psychological need for this largely male audience who listen to him.

I think that from when I've listened to his podcast, there does seem to be this focus on masculinity, either implicitly or explicitly, masculinity is often highlighted. There's a lot of gender anxiety. I think that when cis men are confronted with the reality that gender isn't as binary as they were told it was, that there can be a lot of backlash and that they will just kind of try and root even deeper into the gender binary and quote traditional masculinity. So I see that a lot in his podcast. And I do think like he's meeting that need, right? Like he's just like your funny older brother who's like getting high and having chats with other funny guys.

So he's got to be meeting their needs in that way. We had an interview with Ifoma Uzoma, who used to work for Pinterest and was a instrumental person in terms of getting Pinterest to ban medical misinformation. Something that she told me that really stuck with me is that nine times out of 10, people who were pushing medical misinformation on Pinterest were selling something, whether it was a supplement or something. or something, some sort of like alternative something, and they were like making money. And so I know that Joe Rogan owns a supplement company. I know that his supplement company advertises on the podcast when you go to the Joe Rogan Reddit, people are asking a lot about it. I feel like it is obviously in his best interest to have a generation of young men feel intense

anxiety about what it means to be a man, masculinity, and then also sell supplements that purport to make you more virile, make you more masculine, make you more of a man, whatever that means, I think it's a very clear relationship to me why someone would be interested in having their listenership feel anxious about the sort of gender issues you were just speaking to. And it always bums me out because I always just wonder, what if that same generation of young men were, had access to a platform that was as popular, as accessible, as, I guess, engaging as they find Joe Rogan. But instead of leaning into lies and anxieties around gender, they were being given thoughtful, substantive, interesting, you know, opinions and takes about gender that

were not also trafficking in lies and extremism. What if that was what they were being fed with? Would they feel the need to buy supplements? Would they feel the need? Like, would they feel as anxious, would that nourish them more? Right? Like I, I guess when I think about this information, I think about the massive sort of missed opportunity to really nourish people with good content and good media, because I truly believe that everybody deserves good media, everybody deserves the truth, everybody deserves accuracy. And it makes me sad that so many people, they choose something else. Yeah, not only are they, I mean, they don't choose it. Like, they not only are they choosing it, but it's being really promoted to them and fed to them as,

you know, this is the most popular, so it must be good. And I think so much disinformation, I mean, as you said, like, they're selling something. And a big tactic of encouraging people to buy something is to make them feel as though they are, they need it, right? Like, they are wanting, they are lacking something. And one way to do that is make them feel anxious, right? They're lacking masculinity. They don't have enough vitamin whatever they're selling on that particular episode. And we see it with like Fox News, right?

Like they prey on vulnerable populations, highlight these deep anxieties that they have, and then feed them disinformation, just to like increase those anxieties. It doesn't help for our polarization problem at all either. Like it's an absolute mess, but people profit off of it. Yeah. I think that's something that really gets to me that it absolutely adds to polarization. And we have so many big issues facing us as people, as a society. And if we're all being fed extremism and lies and more and more polarized and people are profiting off of that, we're never going to be able to come together with a a substantive conversation about these issues. We're always going to remain polarized. And I,

you know, I believe that we are better when we are coming to the table with accurate information to have, to base our conversations on. And it makes, like, there are people out there that are profiting on us not doing that. Absolutely. Well, because the whole idea is to uphold the status quo. And they're profiting off of people being unhappy in the status quo or, you know, not understanding why they don't have the wealth that they were promised they one day would or the power or happiness that they were promised that they one day would. And none of this media empowers anybody in their lives. Like fundamentally, it's there to increase anxiety and to keep them powerless in the face of tremendous inequality. Like, this is not helping to, you know,

unite the lower class? What? Yeah, I love how you put that. It is not, it's media that is not empowering. And yeah, I feel like everybody deserves to see themselves reflected in media. Everybody deserves to feel empowered by media. And I, I guess that's like a fundamental belief. And I hate, like, it even pains me to be having this conversation about Joe Rogan because I know there are men that make better content that will never get a tenth of the attention that somebody like Joe Rogan would get, would never get a tens of the funding like somebody like Joe Rogan would get. And yeah, they just continue to take up the resources and the oxygen in the room. I literally hate, like, I am really happy that this conversation is being had and that we are finally

kind of like holding Spotify accountable. But at the same time, it's drowning out other conversations. I mean, even on Spotify, they were talking about how internally, employees are unhappy because they weren't able to, like, actually promote Black History a month podcasts that they had planned. So in a lot of ways, even in his scandals and criticism, Joe Rogan is drowning out other voices. And that is also very frustrating. That's so frustrating. So, Abby, how do you see this? Like, where do you think we go from here? I'm constantly trying to make the point that this is not about anyone, creator or just about Spotify. These issues are really systemic and institutional and they go so deep.

Like, where do you see this going from here? We're at this moment where we're having this national conversation about lies for profit and misinformation. Where do you see it going? Or where do you hope it goes? Yeah, those are two different questions. I really, really hope that this can somehow be a lesson to platforms. That they should not be sponsoring people who spread lies in hatred. Like, fundamentally, that seems like a pretty simple takeaway message. It's like, just don't financially reward them. Don't facilitate their own growth by literally giving them millions and millions of dollars

to be controversial and cause, you know, uproar. from lives. Like, that's not helpful. And I really hope that, you know, this dissuades companies from directly sponsoring it at a bare minimum. And then going forward, I'd like to see platforms also, you know,

because platforms also profit off of this. Like YouTube still profits off of Joe Rogan's videos. And I'd like to see platforms also doing more to limit their reach and limit their ability to grow an entire platform and make millions of dollars by using this old and timeless formula. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that we'll never change until we make trafficking in lies unprofitable, trafficking in extremism unprofitable.

Like, and I'm not even someone with, like, I don't, you said earlier that there's always going to be people, be people who have shitty opinions. I agree, but we don't have to give the microphones and a million dollar check to have those opinions. No, absolutely not. I think that that's really, that much more succinct to them what I said. Yeah, trafficking in lies should not be profitable. Like, I don't know why this is somehow a radical take. Yeah, like how bad, like, we're pretty down bad when it's like, oh, that, like, that, like, Like, trafficking and lies shouldn't be unprofitable?

You cancel culture, censoring. Yeah, it's bad. I am just a radical lib because I don't think you should get to make money for being racist. Okay, I have one more question for you. I know that you are a prolific TikToker. Have you seen this trend where women use the TikTok face filter to add a beer? onto their face and then they pretend to be male podcaster. Yes, I love it.

You are a man of high value. It's so funny. I love it. I feel like it cuts across race. Like, we, I mean, I think that, honestly, part of the conversation is I think that a lot of us are just like sick of men, like, sick of men's voices on podcasts. Like, you know, it's, I think the tide is turning. Yeah, I was really relieved to see that because I, I'm just having.

happy to see some criticism of the way that men hold space in podcasts. Even if it's in the form of satire, I think that's still super valid criticism because it's just so obnoxious. Ooh, girl, that will be a whole, we'll have to do a part two because that would be a whole other topic. I can talk for hours. I can talk for hours. I will just say, I agree.

Stop letting men have podcasts. Stop letting men have podcast challenge 2022. Just, we're asking for one year of no male podcast. That's it. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Abby, thank you so much as always for helping to shed light on these issues. Where can folks keep up with your amazing work?

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And they can, as always, find me on TikTok at Topology or on Twitter at Abby. ASR or Instagram at ABESR. I really need to get all the same username, but it's on my TV list, I promise. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com.

You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of I-HeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

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