There Are No Girls on the Internet - Karen Attiah, last Black columnist at Washington Post, fired for insufficiently mourning Charlie Kirk

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

In the wake of Charlie Kirk’s murder, the Trump Administration and their collaborators are prosecuting a widespread crackdown on free expression. Karen Attiah has been a columnist at the Washington Post for 11 years, and was the last remaining Black columnist at the newspaper until last week. She was fired, allegedly for being insufficiently mournful over murdered racist Charlie Kirk, but at this point her firing seems less about what she actually said and more about sending a message: dissent will be punished.  But unlike some people (looking at you, Bezos), she has no intention of backing down or going quietly.  Read the letter sent to Karen from the Washington Post's HR chief, informing Karen that she was fired: https://bsky.app/profile/karenattiah.bsky.social/post/3lzbpq3tzck2o SUPPORT KAREN! FOLLOW HER SUBSTACK: https://karenattiah.substack.com/ SIGN UP FOR KAREN’S RESISTANCE SUMMER SCHOOL: https://www.resistancesummerschool.com/   If you’re listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment there to let us know what you thought about these stories, or email us at [e-mail]    Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media!  ||  instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc/ || tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc ||  youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Tiana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I believe in the right to speak the Truth, even if it's uncomfortable. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. America feels like it is doing a speed run into full-on crackdowns on free expression in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder. MSNBC's Matthew Dowd was fired for saying something as basic as hateful thoughts lead to hateful words, which lead to hateful actions. He told Katie Couric this week that the network admitted his comments were Miss Kemp.

construed, but that they still refused to give him his job back. Late night host Jimmy Kimmel called out Maga for exploiting Kirk's death, and Disney caved to FCC pressure, firing him, only to whiplash less than a week later and announced his show would return this week. Jimmy Kimmel's firing got a lot of attention, and rightly so, but we need to make sure that black women, who are so often the canary in a coal mine for additional attacks on freedom of expression, are not ignored, because after 11 years at the Washington Post,

Karen Atteo was pushed out too. And at this point, I don't even think any of this is really about what people actually said about Charlie Kirk. It's about sending a message. Descent will be punished. Sadly, this is not even Karen's first rodeo. The last time that we spoke, her course on race, international relations, and media at Columbia University

had just been canceled, scrapped under pressure from the Trump administration. When we sat down to speak this time around, it was really clear Karen is still working to process all of this. But she's also not giving up without a fight. How are you? I know it has been a rough couple of days, a lot going on. Just how are you as a human? How am I as a human?

I sort of, I think I'm just like one big like adrenaline popsicle. I don't know what an adrenaline popsicle would look like or taste like. Um, it's just, gosh, I've gotten so much sort of support, um, questions. I'm still kind of processing the fact that I was let go from a job, a place that I've sort of called my institutional work home for the last 11 years. So it's definitely a hurricane. I am an adrenaline popsicle being tossed around in this hurricane. It feels, but I'm glad to be here.

I'm glad to, you know, spend some time kind of processing everything here with you. Yeah, the last time that you and I spoke, it was about resistant summer school, you know, the course on race and media that you developed after Columbia, pretty shamelessly caved to the Trump administration and canceled this super popular, well-liked class you've been teaching there. I kind of hate that this is a theme, but did that prepare you at all or set the stage for what ended up happening at the post? What's that shirt where some of where it's like, oh, you study the culture. I am the culture.

You know, I kind of feel a little bit of like, oh, you study cancel culture. I am the cancel culture right now. Yeah, obviously, you know, two sides of a coin. I mean, Colombia, obviously, being a place where I went to school, Columbia, I was a graduate student at the school of the International and Public Affairs, so it was always a dream to be able to give back to an extent in my capacity as both an alumna and a working journalist to give back to students there. So having that opportunity sort of taken away like that hurt, this one is deep with the Washington Post,

the opinion section. This was the only major journalism job I've had stayed there for 11 years. When I was hired to work in the opinion section, my job was to, well, not just write myself. I actually started as an editor, so to uplift other voices, especially voices I disagreed with. I did it all sorts of ranges of things. And so it really is, I'm still processing it. It hurts a lot. I was just doing my job. I was just same thing, talking about race and power in America,

which is what I was hired to do as a calmness. And to see this sort of 180 shift caught me off guard for sure. So did Columbia prepare me for this? No. Not. How could you be prepared for something like this? No one is prepared for something like this. I've been in my, you know, I've being in the journalism business, being in sort of public figure, being definitely a woman with opinions on the internet, much less a woman who's paid to give opinions on the internet comes with its fair share of critique and controversy and sometimes backlash. This time, the comments that I made in the aftermath of the

Charlie Kirk shooting, the shootings in Colorado, I did not experience much of any backlash. It was pretty tame. I've had some spicy takes. I know and I've had a spicy hot Cheeto take. this wasn't one of them. And if anything, I was extremely somber and lamenting the state of America. And somehow that trips some fire line, particularly talking about white men, I was not prepared for that because I've been doing my job. I've been prepared to do my job and talk about these things. I was trained to do this. So being punished for doing what I was trained to do, no, of course I wasn't prepared for that.

Let's talk about that because you have really spoken about how there's some misinformation really floating around online about what exactly happened. So set the record straight for us here. I read the letter that you posted from the post on your substack. Bullshit, in my opinion. I will just say that's my take of what they said. But tell us what exactly happened. What is the post saying? Yeah.

So in the actual letter that I got, I know there was a lot of sort of. of assumptions, rumors, circulations. You know, when you say on the aftermath of the Kirk shooting, people were looking for, I only had one post where I mentioned Kirk directly by name, and it was a characterization of his views on black women. There was a quote going around, I think, from the nation that, you know, Kirk had said black women, black processing power, had then got updated to, you know, he was talking specifically about Joy Reid and certain prominent black women, but nevertheless, this is someone

who is long characterized black women, particularly professional black women, interestingly, as not being deserving of the job. That was the only time I referenced Kurt. What the post took issue with, and should I read it myself, is that the better, is that the better approach. I was accused of gross misconduct. Let's see, let's pull the letter up right here. So, Karen is from the head of HR. I'm writing to inform me that the post is terminating your employment effective immediately for gross misconduct. Let's see here. They said your postings on blue sky about white men in response to the killing of Charlie Kirk do not comply with our social media policy.

For example, you posted, quote, refusing to tear my clothes and smear my ashes, smear ashes on my face and performative mourning for a white man that disposed violence is not the same of violence, end quote. And this is the second post they are making an example of, quote, Part of what keeps America so violent is the assistance that people perform care, empty goodness, and absolution for white men who espouse hatred and violence. The, end quote. The post says basically that social media postings be respectful and that it's prohibited to disparage people based on their race, gender, or other protected characteristics.

So basically, me doing my job, talking about, not actually talking directly about Kirk. No. Rather about a pattern, documented pattern of shooters, whether it's mass media, mass shooters, whether it's politically motivated violence, aka domestic terrorism. The facts and the data are,

there, the overwhelming perpetrators of this crime are white men. I think if you pull out a gun and shoot someone, that is a violent act. Every single post I referenced white men, I said violent white men. And somehow the post is interpreting what I'm saying as to be that I'm being racist against white men. I never said all white men. I never even said most white men. I very specifically said those who commit violence

and espouse hatred and violence. I don't think that's an inherent characteristic of white men, but maybe the post does. I'm sure we will see their reasoning soon enough. But yes, that is the real stated reason I was fired as a race columnist, race, gender, human rights columnist, because I mentioned white men. It almost kind of sounds like an insult to white, that the post is sort of insulting white men because you said violent white men. That's who I'm talking about.

And they're saying, oh, that's an insult to white men everywhere. And I was like, well, what do you think about what? Like, it's sort of a revealing way to put it. Don't you agree? I don't know what was going to do it. I was very clear. For me, as a human, as a writer, words mean things. I put the, what's the, I'm thinking back to my grammar.

My grammar days, the restrictive relative clause, meaning this is a subset of a demographic that has been documented by the FBI, the National Institute of Health, research after research and study after study. not only of the carrying out of these crimes, but also of the media coverage, the tone, the framing, the angles, when we find out that the perpetrators are white men, right? We get the sort of, he came from a good home. He was an all-American boy, you know? There is a very, very, very specific

and small group of humans to do those sort of things. You know, so anyone can go back. That's why I posted the letter and let people judge for themselves. And that's why I left up my social media postings. I still stand behind what I said because it was the truth I was doing my job. This is reflected in data. Again, you know, I'd be... I'm still stunned, honestly.

I'm still... I don't know. My job is that words mean things. I don't know why the post has decided that that's not what they're going to do. And, you know, in my post, anyone can go back and see that I was actually, you know, referencing more so lamenting the empty rhetoric we have around political violence, the thoughts and prayers, that this is not who we are. the political violence has no place here.

And that sort of thing, again, in the context, not just of Charlie Kirk's shooting, but we had another shooting that day. Yeah, in Colorado, with a right-wing extremist, suspective perpetrator. No one's really talking about it. No, who knows the names with those kids? I'm sure plenty of people do, but who got the national vigils, the mornings, death threats on their behalf? not those kids in Colorado.

So in my mind, I'm taking that as a holistic picture of where we are, not only when it comes to gun violence in America, but when it comes to who do we give care and attention to. Yeah. As those, as the victims, who do we rhetorically sort of demand mourning from? Speaking of mourning, on Sunday, there was a public event honoring Charlie Kirk. They called it a funeral, but it looked more like a political rally.

Pyrotechnics, Trump on stage railing against Biden and his other political opponents, claiming without evidence that Tylenol causes autism. And even talking about a federal takeover of Chicago for Charlie. And that's when Trump mentioned Kirk at all, because as over the top as the whole thing was, Charlie Kirk honestly kind of sounded like an afterthought. And honestly, it wasn't hard to think that Jimmy Kimmel and Karen had been right. The whole spectacle seemed less about grief and honoring someone's legacy and more about politics wrapped up in the language of mourning.

Something that really sticks with me about your post, the post that the post quoted in the letter, was that it seemed to me, I mean, I understood the point that you were making clearly, right? It's about excessive mourning and the expectation of excessive emotionality. Who gets that? And I don't know if you saw, they were calling it a funeral, but I'm going to call it a rally. I don't know if you saw that yesterday.

After watching that spectacle, it is difficult to disagree with that characterization that you laid out in that post. That, I mean, I don't think anybody could watch it and not say, this seems excessive.

The funeral that was held, really, when I watched it, your words were echoing. It was looming large, I was like, oh, Karen really called it. This does seem excessive. Hashtag I was right. Mm-hmm.

You know, even before the funeral, right? Like, even I think, I think even right after my termination letter came through. And again, like, I, hmm, I did not even, I posted that on Blue Sky. No backlash, you know, really people were like, okay, yeah, you know, maybe a little bit of, oh, shouldn't you give more space? But largely, I just went on my, with my day, and maybe about, yeah, I mean, 12, 13 hours later the next day, I miss a phone call from the post, and then within minutes, like notice of termination, right? And then I think I see later, either the afternoon or the day after, it might have been the day after, I saw a post from Nancy Grace. I think this is once they identified a suspect, an alleged suspect in Kirk's murder,

rep Nancy Grace, all of a sudden starts talking about, you should pray for this man. Right? Something like that. The switch up was so like a switch was flipped. Olympic gold medal. I know. The energy with which they were able to do that pivot could power a thousand suns. like I was right.

Because again, this is a pattern. It's not just me. This is a pattern. This has been documented. It's documented about America. This has been documented about the disparate treatments. So, of course, you know, not going to be surprised what, you know, Sunday has turned into. And when I say part of normalizing this espousing or,

of hatred also means absolving Charlie Kirk's shooter. We remember the cries for blood and we would get them. If only he was the leftist. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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Somebody! But there's so much more to me than me. I'm an actor. I'm a comedian, and recently I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice.

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Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network available on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside.

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Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. Over the weekend, investigators announced there was no evidence linking Charlie Kirk's suspected shooter, Tyler Robinson, to any left-wing groups, despite the administration's pledge to crack down on left-wing groups in retaliation for curse murder. And when the suspect was finally named, the governor of Utah openly expressed disappointment that it wasn't someone they could easily demonize. Instead, he admitted it was one of ours. For 33 hours, I was I was praying that if this had to happen here, that it wouldn't be one of us.

That somebody drove from another state, somebody came from another country. Sadly, that prayer was not answered the way I hoped for. Remember what the Utah governor said that he was, the suspect wasn't what we were hoping. It turned out, it's just a homegrown white guy. not even just hoping, but he was praying. He was praying to God. He was hoping that it was a divine act of God that the person would be someone that they could easily,

more easily go actor, someone from another country, someone who was not one of us, right? So documented when the shooter, when shooters have been documented to be white men. This is just a representative of the pattern that I was talking about. The absolution, the sort of, I've already seen the headlines, all-American kids for Tyler Robinson. So, yeah, I'm just sitting there and I'm like, called it.

Called it. And I lost my job for that. I know in the scheme of things, this is not the biggest deal. I don't want to spend too much time on it because I understand it's not a huge deal. But, you know, in media, I have been part of layoffs, part of, I've been, you know, in a media, you see some things. And I do feel that it matters how an organization chooses to let you go. There's a way, nobody likes getting let go.

Nobody likes having, like, being fired. But there is a way to do it that I think signals whether or not this is respectful. And I do think it matters how you're let go. you gave the post 11 years of your life and they fire you in an email, you know? It's not even, I think that not even having a conversation with you before sending that, which is really doesn't sit right with me. I know in the scheme of things you're probably not tripping off of these little details, but something about it is like, that's a choice.

There are ways to do, there are, somebody made a choice to do it that way. Yeah, well, and not just that. I mean, as I said in my substack post, I categorically reject those charges in that letter. I think that it was a breach of their policy and responsibility to me. I think it was a breach and an abominable breach of basic journalistic standards, right? That we are being told to uphold. and this is what I would have said had I been given the right to reply.

So yeah, of course, all of these things, all these things matter. And yeah, I mean, this is a place, not only that I gave 11 years to, but for me, my path into, not only into journalism, My sort of career actually started in freedom of expression work. I was a press freedom analyst for Freedom House, actually.

My full right scholarship is on looking at freedom of radio speech actually in Ghana. So journalists and people being able to express themselves in the conditions, the economic and political conditions that they work under was actually something that is sort of deep at the core of what my work has been even before I started as a professional journalist. And this is why the Washington Post, part of the reason why Washington Post hired me is because I had these commitments to these principles. Keeping those principles at the forefront of her work has not always been pretty. In 2017, journalist Jamal Khashoggi began writing for the, Post under Karen's editorship. Just over a year later, CCTV cameras captured him entering the Saudi

consulate in Istanbul. He never came out. With her long career of defending press freedom, Karen became the guardian of Jamal's legacy. The post devoted its entire op-ed page to his final column, delivered to Karen by his assistant the day after he disappeared. In her preface, Karen wrote, the post held off publishing it because we hope Jamal would come back to us so that he and I could edit it together. Now I have to accept that is not going to happen. This is the last piece of his I will edit for the post. This column perfectly captures his commitment and passion for freedom in the Arab world,

a freedom he apparently gave us life for. I will be forever grateful he chose the post as his final journalistic home one year ago and gave us the chance to work together. So for a lot of people maybe who've followed my, career as an opinions editor, I was the editor of Jamal Khashokji, who was murdered for expressing himself in the Washington Post, murdered by Saudi agents. And I put my safety on the line. I had to get personal security. I risked a lot, gave up a lot to advocate not only for Jamal, because I realized advocating for Jamal, helping to put the Washington Post as a symbol of how it should treat

its writers, how it should stand behind its writers, even when it's hard. The Washington Post became a symbol for that, and I very much was tied into that. It hurts my heart. I'm stunned, and I'm frankly befuddled as to now my connection with the Washington Post. not only has been severed, but the relationship has now been inverse, that I've been punished, eliminated from their ranks. For being the journalist, I was trained to be in that, doing the work I was paid to do. So it's almost, you know, as if, you know, obviously I did not lose my life like Jamal did.

but basing the same sort of pressures that Jamal did is just a chilling reminder of where we now find ourselves in like careening towards the abyss in terms of press freedom. Because again, it's not just me. You know, I just, I got fired two days afterwards or so or a week afterwards. It was Jimmy Kimmel. Before me, right, or at least before I went public, Matthew Dow. from MSNBC. So I realize this is part of a climate of chilling of free speech, of critique.

I'm not just chilling. I mean, this is beyond canceling. This is a certain sort of cruelty to it. You know, it's not just cancel culture. They're using the FCC to Jimmy Kimmel. They're abandoning process with me, right? This is a really

chilling and scary moment for the... I was just doing my job. I have just been sticking to the values that I've always had for the last 15 years of not only my professional life but my personal life that I believe in the right to speak

the truth, even if it's uncomfortable. And it's sad that the Washington Post has decided to put itself on the wrong side of history and despite when it seemed like just a couple of years ago, it seemed really invested in being on the right side of history when it came to silenced and challenged journalists now. I don't know. Yeah, I remember. So the version of the post that you just described when they were really championing your work to support free expression, expression of journalists, protecting and

standing up for journalists, I remember that. And looking back now, it feels like they were dining out on an agenda that you were setting. And it's just the way that they, I know it's a very different post today, but does that feel kind of hollow now? They were more than happy to align themselves with your work. The work where you were like putting your safety on the line in very real ways.

And then also, I remember just so clearly that you would say, this should be a warning to everybody, right? He was a legal U.S. resident, right? And we still, you know, they never found it. body, like the way that you were signaling that as a call to all journalists and the importance of the need to protect the re-expression of journalists, I think the Post was more than happy to make that, make your work their mission. Does that feel kind of hollow now? That's a good question. I'm still processing. It's like, wait, what was real? What wasn't?

I will say, though, there were and happened and still remain journalists at that paper who stand ten toes down on these values just as much as I do. This is a question for leadership and for our owner, frankly. And I, you know, credit to, he's now past rest in peace, but Fred Hyatt, who was the editorial page editor who hired me, who very much, even though we disagreed, on many things. And he really modeled what it looked like to be a thoughtful but courageous journalist and stand up for writers.

He'd written and reported from some of the most undemocratic places you can think of. And my sort of aligning human rights, journalistic freedom very much was inspired by him at the Post. He was honest. I remember when I told him that Jamal was killed, even though he had never met Jamal. Fred Hyatt burst into tears. That was real.

That is who we had. To me, that was who the post was. Fred Hyatt is gone now. Not gone. He still influences me. I still try to live up to his sort of instructions and example. yes, so clearly I don't think all white men are bad. Fred Hyatt is one of the biggest influences of my career.

I cite him so often. He is his words that as an opinion journalist, we get to write. We aren't limited to just writing about the world as it is. We have an obligation to write about the world as it should be. I think about that almost every day. And so to me, you know, I think of, you know, the Post-Dorany institution is a gathering of people at the end of the day, really. And so, you know, obviously it's a mixed picture for me, but I still hold on to what I learned about how to be a fighter for other writers because of the Post, because of people like Fred Hyatt. even the former publisher, Fred Ryan, they went all out for Jamal, for Jason Rezaian,

the Freedom Journal. I think that was real, yes. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right?

That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open to change. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged, one erection. Listen to you. Humor Me with Robert Smygel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me.

I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is out of last. that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by,

like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that, That man, hell get to flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jared Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet. Help! Somebody! Please! But there's so much more to me than that. I'm an actor.

I'm a comedian. And recently, I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to man.

If I'm calling you, even if you're on your phone, let it ring twice. One ring is too scary. Cream of chicken suit. Hey, cream of chicken soup. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura Podcast Network available on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time.

You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a perimenopausal chin here you do. Let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be with the Adamaniarriva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be.

Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How high can it be getting? I make it at 50 with the new guy. That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try.

So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it.

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos bought the post in 2013. At first, the scuttlebutt was that editorial wouldn't change much. But Bezos did not hold to that for very long. Let's talk about the current owner of the post, Jeffrey Bezos. Living in D.C., you know, he owns my local newspaper. He owns where I get my groceries. He owns where I get my health care. Kind of feels like he's taking over more and more of my life.

But I remember when he bought the post, he said that he wanted the opinion section to champion personal liberty. You know, he wanted columnists to be provocative to, to, to, he wanted, you know, opinions and takes that people might not always agree with to be published. What changed? I don't know. Because that was the marching orders you just described were the marching orders I heard in person from him himself.

So, well, I think everybody, it's. It's been clear, even in my firing, that there's been a change, a profound one. And I think, like I said, I mean, there's still, like, going to be a time and place where so much more of this will be addressed in my case. So hashtag stay tuned, hashtag watch the space. But I can say this is a really chilling moment when we're thinking about not only this client, this climate, excuse me. I think now, for me, I mean, I've always been

interested in sort of media ownership and media policy and media laws and the fact that so much of our media is owned by such a small, small, small group of people, right? Not only our newspapers, but TD networks. I mean, look at our social media platforms. We have a concentration of power here that has always been a recipe for, you know, he's not almost been a great sign

for our media ecosystem, right? But that being said, I mean, the hope one has when being, you know, employed by particularly a very well-resourced organization is that you'll be able to do amazing journalists and you'll have folks who will have your back. Right.

And so I suppose, you know, we're just, again, just in a bigger climate. It's bigger than just me. I mean, again, they got me, they got Jimmy. They got Jimmy Kim. Right. I think this is a bigger sort of climate in which is becoming increasingly dangerous to speak your mind. And if like, I'm not exaggerating. If we want to hold on to democracy, the very basic.

of the rest of our sort of rights and human rights is the ability to even speak and call out a problem, identify a problem, so that we can fix it, coalesce to organize it, so that we can open people's imaginations and minds to address it so that we can even have the so-called debate they claim they want to have, right? Unless they're talking about something else other than quote-unquote free speech and debate. Is it really free speech and debate that they really want? Because you need actual free speech and you need journalists to be able to do their jobs,

to be able to collect and report on and to provide framing and commentary on the world for people so that there can be an honest debate. But if what you're actually looking for is power and rhetorical domination, that's a different conversation. conversation. But, you know, it's just, it's, it flies in the sort of general logic of all the folks who are saying personal liberties, free markets, none of those can be achieved without free speech. Point one period.

I mean, to that point, when I saw that you were being let go at the post, I was sort of waiting because I'm thinking, well, third, certainly in two days time, I'm going to get a one-on-one sit-down on a mainstream news show or something. I was sort of like waiting to see, like, who's going to get the first interview? So I was even more shocked when I heard that you said, really no mainstream press reached out to you that the first interviews that you did were with podcasters and independent press. That's actually why I got in touch because I was like, certainly you're, you are going to be booked full of interviews. I saw it in an interview with, I think, Jim Acosta, you said that this was a sign of the Times for mainstream media, that nobody was reaching out to you to talk about this. Nobody wanted to really talk about this story from mainstream press. What do you think that says about where mainstream media is at right now? Yeah. So I'll clarify. So there will be, there were people who definitely like reshout. I got media like sort of the mainstream media inquiries. But as far as sort of the deep, Prime time, TV, major network, like anchor one-on-ones to be able to really unpack this, not as sort of two-minute sound bites, I mean, we were the ones trying to pitch, like,

hey, can we take, like, no major takers for the TV, the TV anchors. So the first ones that I actually sat down with after two or three days of trying was Thorn Lemon, in a cafe and eating scrambled eggs. And he was in genius. I saw the little clip you put at the short. Here's a little taste of Karen talking to Don Lemon over scrambled eggs at a diner. The fact that you're the first one to sit down with me and we're just sitting in a cafe is like a visualization of the path, at least for me, that I've gone,

being pushed in front of the world for free speech and protection of journalists and freedom of expression when my writer was killed, I got the SAR mainstream media treatment, and it's hitting me that whatever new journey this is going to be for me in terms of defending the right to express yourself, that you and I are sitting here eating scrambled eggs. There are a few who reached out, but they wanted the sort of ensemble, and I get that that was their thing, but I was like, no, this is going to be big, and this is all before Jimmy Kimmel. became an issue. So yeah, Jim Acosta was one of the first to reach out, substackers actually. And it just, compared to how I was sort of pursued by the major TV networks, again, this is TV, when Jamal Kashchchi was killed,

compared to, like, wow, trying to almost like people to have, to have me on air and especially, you know, being the last as the last full-time black opinion writer left at the Post in Washington, D.C. Which for folks who don't know, so I've lived in D.C. my whole life, that is crazy.

You know, the Post is global, but it's also my local hometown paper. It is the paper that has been on my front stoop of my apartment every day for the last, I don't know, 10 years. DC used to be called chocolate city. It's like it's no longer a majority black city, but it's a heavily black city, especially against the backdrop of a of an increasing hostile takeover of D.C., which we are all witnessing, to have no black opinion columnists left is crazy. There is no other way to put it.

Like, it boggles my mind. It truly is, it just doesn't make any sense. We are in the upside down. Yeah, exactly. So amongst that backdrop, and a lot of these folks, No, I mean, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but it was just telling that maybe for this story, which, again, this is against the backdrop of people being doxed, people for their comments on Charlie Kirk. Again, Matthew Dowd being fired by MSNBC for very tame, also tame comments on Charlie Kirk. the threats coming from to Charlie Kirk's not even his fans but from the administration

over this I'm not I'm not even it's just that has been is the climate this is being used to purge to fire to punish you know who they deemed to be

their quote unquote you know enemies yeah so I'm not the only one. I just happened to be, again, before doing Kimmel happened to be a pretty high profile prize deer they got. But yeah, it was just also telling that,

I don't know, it felt it's been feeling liberating, to be honest, be able to speak more freely with independent media, people who are building their own audiences and platforms. And to me, I'm like, wow, is this really the sign of the times, particularly that I'm sitting down with Don Lemon,

who once had his own prime time show. That was also canceled by CNN. And Jim Costa was pushed out of CNN in 2018 because of shit that went down with the Trump administration. Like, you have a little club. seems like. We've got a little rebel alliance building right now. Being, uh, being, uh, being forced out some of us more dramatically than others. I think mine is pretty dramatic. Um, but they've

been the ones to, to embrace me, like, wholehearted me and like, not just have me on, but just to say like, Karen, it's going to be okay. It's going to be all right. Like, and I've been really, really, um, just as a human, uh, grateful for that. Um, because, um, I don't know, as I told Don Lemon and I'll say it here, like, especially not just what happened to me, but in Jimmy Kimmel's case, the FCC getting involved. Again, for me, as someone who's studied media policy, not just in the U.S., but around the world, and studied tactics being used to science and media, this is cold, yellowish, yellowish, like orange. Like, this is, this is bad. This is me. This is bad.

I, for sort of the corporate media, corporate media. This week, you know, you'll see me around a bit more, you know, doing the rounds. But, yeah, last week, that was, that was, that was chilling. I'll say that. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group.

The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because you're, Terrence made a huge donation.

The group. The yard herds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business.

Think IHeart, streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's IHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the I. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jared Adano.

You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet. Help! Somebody! Please! But there's so much more to me than that. I'm an actor. I'm a comedian. And recently, I've become quite the helper myself.

And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hippocrat, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike! I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff rant and recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to man. If I'm calling you, even if you're on your phone,

let it ring twice. One ring is too scary. Cream a chicken suit. Hey, cream. Cream a chicken suit. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura podcast network

available on the IHart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a perimenopausal chin here you do. So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast.

How hard can it be with Deanna Maria Riva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How high can it be getting naked at 50 with the new guy?

That one's kind of hard, you know? Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. I'm curious what you think about this. I actually don't even think it's about Charlie Kirk. I think that's a convenient excuse and convenient timing for the post to chip away at the last messages of what the post used to be before Bezos took over to push. out voices that the administration doesn't like.

I also think it's, you've alluded to this, but just so folks really know, we spent so long talking about cancel culture and what we're really talking about is like, oh, a private company parted ways with somebody that they had worked with them or like took them off of their social media platform. This is the administration using the power of the FCC, you know, to set the agenda of hiring and firing based on what is going to be friendly to the administration. It's just, I just, I can't help it feel all the conversations that we had about free speech. We all had to entertain that for so long.

When it actually is an administration using their power in this way, I just don't feel like we're having the conversation that really aligns with the, with the alarm that you have just set. We're not having conversations that matched reality, you mean? Correct. Yes. That's a perfect way to put it. There you go. That's why I used to be in opinions call. I'll just do it in other ways. Gosh, let's just say things are bad and they can't get worse. I have said for a long time, both internally and externally,

that this is a time for people to really organize Dan together. Shout out to the Washington Post Union. I know basically as we speak, they're raging war for me inside, right? So, again, when I think of the Post, it's not just about post leadership. Like, I know my colleagues are, they've phrased,

they've condemned some of firing, they've issued a statement, you know, there are processes that are going on, that, you know, I'm, I'm a long time proud union members. This is why unions are important. Right. That being said,

how can I do this without being, how can I talk about reality without being super cryptic? Look, like, shit is getting real. And it's getting real, like, real fast. I am deeply worried about America about this country. I am profoundly worried for not just journalists, particularly black journalists. I do not see it as a coincidence that Bridget, as you said, and in D.C. in particular, as this administration is literally trying to like forcibly recolonize this place,

military occupation, literal checkpoints where people are having to feel like they need to carry around their papers, where the Supreme Court has basically said that racial profiling is okay. I do not see it as a coincidence that these folks have taken out the entire line of black opinion journalists at the Washington Post. Opinion journalists, for those who don't know as different than sort of quote unquote regular reporters who are just thought to stick to the facts and the who what one wear wise of things and all of that. opinion journalists we get to go beyond that still use facts but go beyond that to say this is what this means and this is why this matters and this is how we should prepare we get to say this is right and this is wrong if i was still there at the post i would be saying what is happening to dc right now what is happening to to journalists right now being taken out this is wrong and this is scary

and this is a historical warning i teach this in my class for race and media that I'm already seeing the patterns that I teach about that have led to unspeakable moments in history. Okay? So I am saddened that the place that I spent 11 years of my life defending press, not only press freedom, but trying to do my best to get America to be, I don't know, in a better place that we find ourselves here. We find ourselves in this place where I'm not sure how we get out of this. Okay. But what I can say is the old ways won't work.

The old institutions have shown us who they are or who they're choosing to be in this moment. And this is where, you know, one uses all levers. And like I said, there will be a time and place to me to use. use different levers of, you know, accountability and telling my side of the story with everything. But for now, it just, it just feels like a brink sort of moment. And, you know, the example of sort of that I've been preaching for a long time, people power, no one's coming to save us, y'all. It's not going to be the billioners.

It's not going to be the politicians. It's not going to be, like I said in my last column, Barack Obama. Who, by the way, came to my defense? I saw, like your last column was sort of a critique of the way people are talking about Obama. And who is who, like, he was like, oh, what happened to her is awful. Right. So that was like the before time. So basically the last political focus column that the Post allowed me to do before they fired me was a critique of Barack Obama.

None, I mean, of Barack Obama. But again, I'm always interested in social discourse. So I was watching the social discourse and everybody's watching things go, like, going pear shape real fast, going south real fast. And I saw a lot of commentaries saying, Barack Obama, where are you? Barack, stop podcasting and stop shooting hoops and come and save us. And I was just like, y'all need to chill out, honestly, on two levels.

First of all, like, yes, Obama was, is. an amazing articulate president, but like nice speeches aren't going to save us. Two, he's out of power. Three, let's look at his immigration records. Okay. So what exactly are you all asking for right now when this man had the moniker to Porter and chief and appointed Tom Holman, not only appointed, but gave him in presidential medals. So anyway, all of that I laid out in my piece and, you know, facts, data, but that was my opinion. The Obama folks reached out and they were like, ha ha, we liked your title. emotional support president. That was funny.

But here's what we didn't like. This like, this, this. And I was like, okay. I disagree. I still think there's a, like, I think these, I think entire families being locked up is objectively terrible.

I think under your administration, children having to represent themselves in court is objectively terrible and set our country up for seeing what we see today. What did they say? We didn't wear masks though. I'm like, Okay, so it looked better.

But you're like, okay. And that was the extent of the, that was debate, in my opinion. And we went on about our lives. No one was calling for me to be locked up. No one was calling for the post to be fined to be taken off of air. And now a couple months later, Obama, the president that I criticized very publicly coming to my defense. Obama's not coming to save us. Institutions aren't coming to save us.

Billionaires aren't coming to save us. And one of the last questions I wanted to ask you is that, you know, I have been an admirer of yours for a long time. I followed your career. As somebody who is in media, I look at you and I think, like, if my career and my background looked like yours, my parents would have been so happy. You know, Ivy League education, working at Columbia, winning awards after award after award, working for the post. And, you know, you essentially, how I would put it in my community is like you did everything right, right? Like all the things that you're supposed to do to get accolates, to get respect, to be taken seriously. You did. And in the end, we're here. And so I guess I feel, you know,

institutions and connections to institutions aren't going to save us because they will always protect themselves and power. And I think what happened to you just really shows that. Are you feeling that way at all? Yeah, I definitely went through my moments where I was just like, wow, I did everything right. I went to the fancy schools. I went to Northwestern. I went to Columbia. I went to the best of the best schools. I gave up.

I worked for free to have radio internships just so I could break into the business. And also, like I said, putting my safety on the line to advocate. For Jamal, winning awards for that, all that to come to being fired by an email and being accused of that I am a risk to the Washington Post after putting my life on the risk for the Washington Post. I mean, what I would say to that is like you cannot be defined and find your worst and really anything external, right? And I've come to peace with that.

I do not regret living a life that's been by my values, been my rules. I sort of have grown up. I started at the post when I was in my mid-ish 20s, late 20s or so. So I was quite young, and I was quite young having the responsibilities that I did. But I did them well. I was a badass. I still am. And no one's going to take that away from me. Like the work, all of it speaks for themselves, for themselves.

Awards are not. Trudeau are not. So I suppose this is a lesson for everyone, but particularly, you know, women journalists of color and people talk about imposter syndrome and all that stuff. I know what your values are and live those out. that's the real reward. That's the real kind of, like, I can honestly say, like, this is my path, that this has been,

you know, the start to something maybe even more beautiful in which I'm actually more free to really be myself, actually. And, you know, like I said, I had the time of my life at the post, but, okay, maybe the best is yet to come. But again, this is not the end. This isn't going to stop me. This is only just going to make me like hotter and more badass. What can I say? I'll be all right. But, you know, America, like, the empire is collapsing, but I'm still like, my look glasses still popping. My hair is still. You know, I'm still going to write and no one's going to, I've always said that as long as I have a pen and paper, I'm still going to write. Like, so if anything,

I don't have a shadow over my head anymore. There's still much to come on this case, but I am looking forward to what comes next. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from Iheart Radio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joey Dardano, and on my new podcast, Hope from a Hippocrat, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with thoughtful solutions. Scyke.

I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to me. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from a Hypocrite Wednesdays on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The story I told myself can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast Deeply Well with Debbie Brown if you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole. This podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to Deeply Well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, everyone.

I'm Cheryl Strait, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called My, Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we, too, can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be?

I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate mid-Lyheart. life's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered conversations from night sweats to futas to scheduling sex. Wait, what sex? Is it just me or does every woman my age want to look at Pinterest instead of having sex sometimes? They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.