There Are No Girls on the Internet - Meet the woman who went undercover to infiltrate white supremacists (Live from Union Stage!)

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

After losing her job, Amanda Moore went undercover to investigate the white supremacists Making America "Great" Again.This episode was taped LIVE at Washington DC's Union Stage as part of Digital Void's Our Connected Future event.Read more about Amanda's story: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/amanda-moore-undercover-maga/Follow Amanda: https://twitter.com/noturtlesoup17Learn more about Digital Void: https://www.digitalvoid.media/   Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Say hello at [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Today's episode of There Are No Girls on the Internet was actually taped live from Digital Voids, our connected future event a few weeks ago. So if you don't know Digital Void, they are a great multimedia project that studies the way that the Internet and technology shapes all of our brains as humans.

And at their event, I was so excited to sit down with Amanda Moore. Amanda's story is fascinating. She worked in live events until COVID hit, and then she lost her job. Broke and struggling with how to get connected with financial services like unemployment, she did what anyone would do, created an alias, and went undercover into the world of white supremacists and far-right extremists for a year. Okay, so maybe not everybody would do that, just Amanda. Amanda fed stories to journalists that helped shine a light on the inner workings of the underbelly

of white supremacists. She was at the Capitol during the insurrection on January 6th, and she was at the Capitol, And the night that we sat down together at Washington, D.C.,'s union stage, the trucker convoy that started up in Canada, was actively circling around D.C. trying to create chaos, which I feel like it's pretty fitting. Now, Amanda's story is a great reminder of how much dangerous, difficult work of making our democracy safer is being done by women. So let's listen. That's my theme song. Remember me? I am Bridget Todd. I am the host and creator of IHeartRadio's. There are no girls on the internet, a podcast where we explore, oh, all right, I'll take that.

Yeah, this is a smattering of applause. I have to say, this is my first ever live podcast taping, so if I seem a little nervous, that is why. You know, on the show, if you don't know what it's about, we explore all the different ways that marginalized folks, so women, people of color, trans folks, queer folks, all the different ways that we show up or don't show up online. And, you know, a reality of this work is that time and time again, so much of the work making internet spaces safer, better, more inclusive is being done by women and other marginalized folks. And it is a work that is dangerous. It is personally costly. And we hardly ever recognize

that work. And that's one of the reasons I'm so excited to be talking to my first ever live podcast guest, Amanda. Give it up for Amanda. This is also my first live podcast experience. So we're in this together. We got this. So Amanda, you spent a year of your life being embedded with some of the worst sort of far-right extremist French folks, folks like, give us a few of the names of the folks that you were kicking it with. So here's the worst part is that you won't know their names, but they're busy writing legislation. But they are like former members of Patriot Front, Nidentia Europa, and other hate groups that you would recognize. So how did this, how did you come to spend a year of your life doing this. Take us back. How did this start?

So I've always had an interest in politics. I was raised evangelical. My parents are both Trump voters. And I was a libertarian until I was like 26, which is super embarrassing. And a lot of people that I knew in a libertarian movement ended up moving into the extreme far right. Some are in jail. Some are, you know, proud boys who should probably be in jail. some, you know, like I was very, I was not friends with Chris Cantwell, the crying Nazi from Charlottesville, but we knew people in common. And so I've always been able to, like, kind of move within that world. And my job was just completely belly up. I'm in live events. So it was, you know, it ceased to exist during COVID. I had a lot of free time. So I went to the Steele rallies. I kind of just walked to them

and, you know, recorded, whatever. And so that meant I was at the insurrection. So when I was at the intersection, I was like, oh, shit, this is real, and we're really going to do this now. And it kind of escalated from there without me intending for it to. Something that you write about so interestingly is, you know, we all know what happened here in D.C. on January 6th, but you actually talk about the way that the climate that was fostered at some of the earlier events and earlier rallies in D.C. You know, by people like the proud boys really did sort of lead to what we saw on the six. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, what were you seeing in the lead-up to what happened on the six at some of these events? There's a moment that will live in my mind for the rest of

my life. I was in front of the Supreme Court. It was December, the December stopped the steel rally in 2020. And this woman told me, I was almost assaulted at the November rally. And I asked her what happened. And she said she was walking back to the Trump Hotel and her phone and died. and some guys ran past her, and she just took off running. And that was it. That was the whole story. That was the story of her near assault. And it was incredibly strange to me at the time.

And she said, you know, she had to be like maybe 50. And she said, I marched the Pro Bowies last night until 2 in the morning. And you might recall the Pral Boys, like, staff people when they were doing that. So it really, it really just struck me that she was so afraid of everybody here. and everything in the situation of just being in this liberal wasteland where we're 94% for Joe Biden, you know, that she thought that walking past her was almost assaulting her. And later that night, I was in front of Harry's after another stabbing. And we, like, I watched all the proud boys line up, and they started marching and chanting,

and Alex Jones was like giving us this pep talk, you know, know, 1776, 1776. And then the probably sort of like going off in groups of eight to ten as though they were like going off to war. And so like grandpas are like telling them good luck. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your service.

And they're just walking around downtown D.C., like terrorizing whoever they see. And it's, you know, it's so described from reality. But there was this, it felt like a coordinated campaign to make everybody who flew here and came here from out of town. Whether they were from a real city or from, you know, like the middle of nowhere, it didn't matter. So just feel like everybody here was against them. And this is Antifa. You're all Antifa, 100%.

You know, if you're here physically present, you are like an Antifa super soldier. And so just, you know, seeing that coordinate effort was bizarre. Yeah, it's something I like about your work is that it really grounds it in this idea that D.C. is a city where people live. and that I think that for a lot of people, D.C. is an abstraction. They don't understand that people actually live here. And I have lived here most of my life. And, you know, I still have friends

from different cities who would swear that in 2020, D.C. burned to the ground and, like, ceases to exist. I'll be like, oh, how are you out there in D.C.? And I think that your work helps us see that this is a real city. People live here. It's, you know,

and so I really appreciate that. You know, when you think about how people report about extremist movements and these extremist figures, what is something that folks leave out? What is something that you wish that people knew about how these groups actually operate? I think there's a lot of coverage of what the final result is without a lot of coverage of like that lead up. When I first wrote about my experience in January 6th and the lead up to it and talking about people feeling like they were targeted just because they were like a Trump supporter

within D.C. and not just targeted for people to be like, you suck, go away, but, like, targeted for, like, actual, like, violence. A lot of people reached out to me and were, like, I had no idea it was like that in D.C. You know, like, a lot of people didn't realize that Bowser told us to stay home. Our mayor told us to stay home and to not go out, to not counter protest. And she told us that three times. And it's, you know, in my opinion, it's possible that, like, January 6 could have possibly not happened if more people had left their houses in November, December. And I just think, you know, something is missing because I am, like, I've also lived most of my life here. And if I can see that failure and a lot of these journalists who are writing about this,

they live here. And why can't they see it? You know, I don't know. I don't know if it's like an outlet issue where they're not allowed to publish something like that. But there's a lot that goes on, I think, within the way that movements are organized, when people get pushed back, they get really upset. I mean, look at these truckers now. They're, literally like crying because people are giving them the finger. And I am someone that the truckers told to smile actually on the side of the road. So, you know, I think like that component is missing, like how these extremist actions affect people before it becomes violent crimes and like the situations in which they live.

And just how people interact. Another thing, like, I'm just like continuing to go on and on. But like another thing that I've noticed is that for me, you know, I spent COVID, you know, flying around the country, like hanging out with some of the worst people, but, you know, we were hanging out. We were at bars. And that camaraderie and that sense of companionship that a lot of people were missing in 2020 and 2021, you know, we weren't missing. I mean, I was deeply missing it because I hated everybody around me, but everyone else is having like a great time. So I think, too, like that's been underreported a great deal. And I don't really know why,

because to me it seems pretty obvious. You know, if you're going out every weekend, and you're having a blast and COVID isn't real, of course, you know, you're going to want to like adopt whatever you believe to the people that are around you. You want to fit in. Yeah, that's something that you write so compellingly about is this idea of the camaraderie and the relationship building.

In, you know, in my day job, a lot of it is thinking and writing about conspiracy theories, how people get wrapped up in them. And a big part of it that we don't really talk about is the relationships that, you know, I know I have friends from high school who are deep into Q&N, and a big thing about it is that, like, they are in their day-to-day lives. Maybe they're not being supported. Maybe they're not being told that they're smart, that they're smart. Maybe they don't feel very smart on a day-to-day basis. And now someone is telling them, not only are you smart, you're seeing something that no one else sees, you're smarter than everyone around you, and how seductive that is.

And so, I don't know, I think that your work really helps us understand that so much of extremism, and why people get wrapped up in it can really be about the relationships and the camaraderie. Yeah, yeah, thank you. I mean, you know, I was raised evangelical, and, like, a lot of being raised evangelical is being told, like, you know, something nobody else knows, and you have to tell everyone so they understand. And, you know, like, people don't believe the rapture is going to happen. But when it happens, you know, you'll be up there in heaven, and everybody who ever laughed at you will be down here. And I see a lot of that, especially within the Q&N community.

There would be times people would talk to you within Q&N. I'd be like, oh, am I eight years old again? I'll be back in church. Is that what this is? Because it feels like it. So yeah, yeah, I think that sense of we have figured something out that nobody else can. We've cracked the code. And, you know, we're having a great time while doing it is so important to understanding

why is this happening. Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of those things that's maybe different. to acknowledge because it's a little bit complex. You know, you mentioned earlier when we first started talking that some of the names of the far-right extremists that you were embedded with during this time in your life, we wouldn't know their names. And I guess one of my questions is, are there ways that you see these fringe movements and

fringe leaders finding their way into more traditional mainstream right-wing politics? They're writing legislation and they work at foreign embassies. So I think they're there. Damn. Like what can you really say to that? Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving. for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only I-Heart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think I-Hart. streaming, radio, and podcasting.

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May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and your 20s, they can feel like a lot. On the psychology of your 20s podcast, we unpack the anxiety, the overthinking, the heartbreak, the identity crisis, all of it that comes with being in your 20s. Because if you've ever thought, is anybody else feeling this way, they definitely. are. I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. Oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I like was just so wanting to like be out of that phase out of my skin and I

just like really regret not living in the present more. Each week we break down the science behind what you're going through and give you real tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out. They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So, you know, when you were doing this work, when you were embedded with these people,

did you ever have a time where someone said something to you and you almost slipped and you almost like, what was it like? like to be embedded with these people. You know, you've got far right fringe people blowing up your phone texting you for a date, stuff like that. Like, what was that like? And did you ever have a moment where you almost slip? Somebody said something to you that was so out of pocket that you almost were like, I'm going to let this whole ruse fall by the wayside. Yeah, but it's like so stupid. I dealt with so much for so long. And my first undercover thing was in November of 2020.

And then in August of 2021, I flew to Portland, Oregon to go on a date with a former member of Patriot Front, who, again, is helping write legislation. And he was like, there's going to be a fight. BLM and Antifa are going to fight the proud boys. and we'll have a picnic and we'll watch it. And I was like, is this like the battle of bull run? And he was like, that's the spirit. So I flew out and the whole thing was a bust because the proud boys ended up going into a Kmart parking lot

and then tear gassing themselves. So we couldn't have our picnic. But we did spend eight and a half hours in his minivan talking. And we were also like walking around. in Portland and we were walking by some tents and he started talking about homeless people and I was like, oh my God, this is like, it's so humiliating and embarrassing and I just, people can hear you talk and I wish that nobody could hear you talk. And he was like, you know, the homeless, they could really be good for us. Because when I was at January 6th, I noticed all of the homeless people had American

flags on their tents and I was just like, you fuck an idiot, we put those there. I couldn't believe that this man actually thought people who don't have homes went out and bought $300 Trump flags and put them up on their tents. And it took me like a minute to recover from it because it's just like how do you, like what about Trump's policies made you believe? But like people who don't have homes are like, that's our guy. And he was like, yeah, they'll fight because they believe in the cause. I'm like, I don't think that's true. And my response was so aggressive.

And because I'm like from here, you know? Like, I'm not like the docile, like, trad wife. Like, nobody's falling for that trick. And I was just like, no, that's so stupid. Literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like, no, this is not. We put those flags there. And he's like, are you sure?

And I'm like, I live there. Like, yes, I'm sure. And like, that's the thing that broke me. But it's weird how you're able to like, compartmentalized things for so long and then something so stupid. I mean, that's like, like I wouldn't be very clear. Like I, like the same guy, the first night I met him, he asked me at a Turning Point USA event, which is supposed to be a mainstream conservative event, he asked me, what would you, you know, do if you were rural of America? And I didn't want to

radicalize anybody. So I always erred on the side of like kind of dumbing it down. Like, I don't know, I'm just a stupid, blonde idiot. Ah, that's so cool. Like, what would you do? And he goes, I'm thinking like a friendlier Nazi Germany. Oof. So that did not break me. What broke me was this idea that you really thought these people had bought these trump flags

and decorated their tents. They're just so stupid. And so, you know, it's weird the things that like just dig into your brain when you're doing it because you're able to like, or I mean, obviously not everybody, but like I was able to just push so much aside and then that just like,

so, you know, that's really the, only time. Another time a guy told me, conservatives won't have phones anymore. They're going to take away our phones. Team Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, it's coming. And I was like, do you want to tell me more? And you pointed at my phone. And so I recorded everything. I had like a second iPhone, my old iPhone, and I had a wireless mic I put

in my bra, and the receiver was the iPhone. And you pointed it at my phone and said, your phone could be recording right now. And I was like, oh! But that's a little less, you know. serious. But I did almost be myself. It was very, very underwritten. Oh, my God. You're like, oh, well, that one was a freebie. Oh, that'd be so crazy. My phone. Oh, my God. Did you have moments like that? Like, I can only imagine this work was legitimately very scary at times.

Yeah, I mean, it probably should have been more scary. I feel like I should have been more worried. You know, I was docs. I was docs in Fortan, and I was, like, doing like, Q&N, stuff and I was doing like fascist stuff. And so like, you know, like literal Nazis, right? And the QAnon people figured me out from 4chan and went all around their telegram. And I was like, okay, but like I'm supposed to go to this event in Florida. And we're having a hotel room party with three Hungarian fascists and six American Nazis. I could probably still go. My friends are like, no, you really, please don't go. Please don't go. And I'm like, but I think I can go. So, you know, I did not have the

wherewithal, I don't think, to judge, because I was going to go, I was going to do it. So, you know, I think, yes, like a normal person would have been like, I'm flying to Portland, I'm going to go on this weird picnic date with his Nazi, I'm getting in his car now,

we're driving 20 miles away, I should be worried, and I was like, well, this is great, what are we doing? Where does this come from? That attitude you just described of, like, not being afraid and probably maybe most people I would be afraid most people will be afraid but where do you think that comes from in you that you didn't have that fear? I mean it's all I've ever known you know my dad um my dad's pastor uh he believes races people from the dead I went to a

QAnon event at my dad's pastor's church um so it just you know it's like comfortable it's it's not it's not scary or foreign or like a concept that nobody, you know, that I don't understand. To me, it just is. And that's why it was so easy for me because I know the language and I know the culture. You know, I broke my arm halfway through. It sucked. I had to like tell my surgeon. I was like, she's like, we get you in for surgery on Monday.

And I was like, okay, so actually, are you familiar with the concept that, uh, Hillary Clinton is a pedophile and eats children, and only Donald Trump can stop her. And she was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, well, I had to go to a Q&O event. So we can't do surgery. So I delayed surgery for like two weeks to go to this Q&O event. People were praying in tongues on my arm. And like, most people I feel like could not handle that.

But to begin, I'm just like, yeah, it's just literally it's like being back in fifth grade. This is normal, right? And so I think my upbringing really helped make it not an issue for me. So I know when you were embedded with these far-right extremists, I was seeing reporting from, I think, Mother Jones, based on your sourcing. And, you know, I really want to underscore that it is so difficult for traditional journalists to really get a firsthand account of what's happening in a lot of these spaces. And, you know, I think, was it a Trump donor who was screaming white power? I saw a video. That was your video. So I guess my question is, when you were doing this process, project, did you find that people were, or news outlets were excited to work with you? Or was it, were they more kind of, you know, like, oh, this, I don't know if we can publish this. Like, this is not what we want to publish?

Like, what was the vibe like around outlets reporting, the things that you were sourcing from being embedded with these communities? I heard from a lot of editors. This is extremely cool. Also, highly unethical. so come back when you're done. Wow. People did not want to work with me.

Individual journalists were okay with it. I mean, Zach knew. I watched Zach get kicked out of an event with Corka in Tyson's Corner. So, you know, like I would message people who were at events that I was at. And, you know, obviously I grew up here, so I do have friends who were journalists. But, you know, by and large, everybody was like, this is very neat. But we literally cannot pay you to write about it unless they're going to be. going to write about your with your real name attached.

It's like, well, guess what? The whole time it's undercover. I went by Frank on Twitter with a picture of a turtle, so people assumed I was a man, which was wonderful. But yeah, you know, people didn't want to mess with it. And I tried to rationalize, I was like, oh, yeah, it's unethical because, like, you can't wear a mask. Like the things I went to, if you wore a mask, if you wear a mask, you're a journalist, you're

out. But, you know, that's not really what it was. It's just lying to Adansi is unethical. which is wild to me. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert.

Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-Eyehart to get started. That's 844-8-4-8-4-I-heart. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself.

We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more.

Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network. on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and your 20s, they can feel like a lot. On the psychology of your 20s podcast, we unpack the anxiety, the overthinking, the heartbreak, the identity crisis, all of it that comes with being in your 20s. Because if you've ever thought, is anybody else feeling this way, they definitely are. I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. Oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when.

There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase out of my skin. And I just like really regret not living in the present more. Each week we break down the science behind what you're going through and give you real, tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out. They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to The Psychology for your 20s on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So if you've ever wondered, I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast, that I have great news for you. We just launched our brand new newsletter where I'm going to be writing about things I'm paying

attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I promise we will never spam you. You can subscribe to our newsletter at tangoity.com slash newsletter. And it's going to be like a useful newsletter, I promise. You can also support the show by checking out our merch store at tangooty.com slash store. Let's get right back into it. So I read one of your pieces where you talked about how in the beginning you would just show up to these events and you didn't, I mean like you were, you're a blonde woman, you know, you're not asking too many questions. a lot of people just assumed that you were one of them.

And I think that's so interesting that I think that the way that your work relies on being white and also your gender, that I think a lot of these people are just like, oh, this white, blonde woman is hanging around. Certainly she's one of us. Certainly she can come to the next event with us. Certainly we should introduce her to so-and-so and, like, move her along the ranks. And I think it's interesting how you basically just didn't challenge that. You let them run with whatever assumption that they were going to have.

And that's what got you so deep into the middle and into the mix with these extremists. Yeah. Yeah. Some of my friends who are not white would always comment. And I'm like, you know, you can do it too. But it's like a real commitment to the bit because it's going to be like, well, my granddaughter says I'm racist, but you're here. So let's take a picture.

It's like, oh, it's a good thing I never had to do. You know, I was never intending to, like, have a personality undercover. I just went to CPAC and I was like, well, I'll just record some stuff. And, you know, I was like, like, whoever, like, whatever lefty, like, podcast, they can't go. And I had sold stuff to other podcasts. So it was like, going on, just recorded. And then this guy came out to me and he was like, hey, did you want to help recruit Matt Gates to join our organization? And I'm like, what?

you know and just no questions asked just you're physically present you look like you belong so yeah just come on come on be with us it's wild i mean this is you're almost inspiring me this is like just show up and just assume people are not going to ask questions and it might work out you know it's almost kind of like a like a confidence thing i think you know when you think about scammers like your annelves of the world and things like that i think a big part of it is just sort of assuming that people are going to be like, oh, she looks like she belongs. It's fine. Yeah. I mean, that's literally, so like I said, I work in live events. And there is a, there's a place that hosts events in Columbia, Maryland. And I realized about eight years ago,

I could go to any event I went there if I parked at employee parking and wore khakis. Because I had done that for years. You know what I mean? So just like, yeah, I belong here. Like, what's your question? I don't know. Yeah, it's like, you know, when you go to an event and it's You look for the person with the clipboard because that seems like they're in charge. They've got a clipboard. You know, you can just like bring a clipboard anywhere. They'll let you in pretty much. I guess one of the other questions I have for you is do you think that being a woman,

like do you think that you would have been able to do this in the same way had you been a man? Do you think that your identity really helped you? Yeah. So obviously, like, when I got, when I got docs, you could see like the tree of people, like a fin as they realized. and it was like one guy realized, but he wanted to sleep with me. So he, like, didn't tell the guy who also wanted to sleep with me, but, like, he told his other friend, you know what I mean?

So, like, you could tell. I could tell over, like, the course of, like, six weeks of, like, who, like, blocked me and, like, you know, went, you know, out of their, like, out of their mind, like, trying to, like, hide everything from me. I think it gave me a very easy pass, and it made people trust me more. And I also didn't have to prove stuff the way I would have had to prove if I was a guy. you know like my personality was always the same i was just like the racist fascist version of myself you know like bizarre oh me but i i was like it's too much to turn off my personality so everyone i

like kind of vived with was you know from chicago or detroit or boston you know they weren't i wasn't like hanging out people from alabama or kentucky because it's just not who i am like you know that wouldn't have not again not going to be a trad one wife. And they like, it made them, you know, just kind of, kind of let things go a little bit more. And I would always pretend to not know what stuff was. And like, if I was a guy that might not have made as much sense, but I was a woman and we are naturally stupider. So it was, you know, like much easier to do that. And I think, too, if I had been a man, there would have been a man, there would have into maybe a little bit more vetting of me, I literally used my real name. Like, I used a fake

last name, but not by much. And I told them, like, I was Amanda Lilly. My name is Amanda Moore from Annapolis, and I'm from Alexandria. And I used to live in Annapolis. And there's like public record of that. And nobody ever, they were like, oh, yeah, no, I think she's hot. She's great. Everything's great, you know? But if I had been John from Annapolis, they might have looked into me a little bit more. You know what I mean? And they just let it all go. They didn't care. Wow.

I love you using their own biases against them. Like weaponizing their biases against them. Love it. So one of my last questions for you is I know that when you went undercover in these movements, you know, were out of work. I also worked in live events before the pandemic. And so I was also out of work. And you were going through the same frustrating, fucked up-up-ass process that I was going through,

which is trying to get unemployment, trying to figure out any kind of like services or support for myself after I lost my job. And, you know, I read that you really, that that kind of radicalized you much farther left when you realized like, wow, the pandemic is hit and all of us are just kind of on our own and our government has kind of abandoned us. And so I guess my question is, and I felt the exact same way, my question is, are there ways that you see a parallel with that in some of the people who were in these extremist movements because I would have to imagine that those people feel the same way that their government has abandoned them, that they don't have any real meaningful recourse in

terms of civic engagement. And that is, but obviously that has pushed them in the opposite direction. But I'm wondering, do you see a parallel there between your experience of being abandoned in the pandemic and their experiences as well? You're the first person to ever ask me that. Oh. Yeah. usually people ask me what advice do you have people going under cover and I say don't do it

and a lot of it is that you know if I was going to become a neo-fascist races like that ship would have already sailed by now given the way that I was like raised right and I if you look at the guy who's like running

the trucker convoy right now Brian Brassy he was he's a trucker but he was doing stuff for music tours like zizi top i think so he was in the same boat as us and a lot of what he attributes to what he's doing now is his son his son passed away about six months ago and also losing work and like i get it right like i lost my job because i'm mixed income which means you're part w2 and part 1099 i got a hundred dollars a week for unemployment, which is, D.C. is the lowest unemployment of replace every in the country. So I really understand what Brian is going through. I did not decide to lead an

insurrectionist group terrorizing residents of D.C. You're welcome. And he did. And something that I think also scares me is that a lot of the movement on the right right now, especially with people under 35, is populism. And so I see exactly. how someone could have been in my exact position and also be a white person who was raised in some type of Christianity. And it'd be like, yeah, this is extremely appealing, you know? And I think, yeah, I think it's

I think it's like an underreported thing because people feel like, oh, if you've got unemployment, on the right, people say, oh, if you got unemployment, you made more, you know, than you would have made working. It's like, I did not. It's not true. I lost my home. Like, that's definitely not true.

And on the left, people are like, well, you know, like we helped you. And it's like, did you? I don't feel very helped. But, you know, I'm not, I'm not a racist asshole. And I don't think you need to be like that like mindset, but you have to kind of, in a way, be open to it. And I can see how hearing stuff from the populist, you know, definitely drags people that way. I want to be very clear at the upper echelon is not like this other than Bryant I think he's actually like an anomaly within this I think most of the people who are leading things are you know kind of set for life and if they want to have 2.5 kids and might pick a house and a wife that stays at home they can have that um but I do think a lot of the like rank

and file people are people who were in a position like me or you and you know just different priorities whether your priorities are yourself or whether it's the greater good for people in general that's really it's helpful it sounds very scary but also kind of hopeful in a kind of way like I guess I guess it kind of gives me hope that people can be reached some people can be I don't know is that how you feel I think that if I truly believe with all of my heart that 48% of this country were like neo-fascist racist I wouldn't be bother having this conversation I'd already be in London like bye um you know I think I think a lot of people, it's really hard to wrestle with, right?

Because you have to be like, I see why you went a little racist, and I see why you are a little anti-Semitic, but like we're willing to still work with you. Like, you should not work with the fascists or like a literal Nazi, but like the general population. And it's like, it sucks. It sucks when you can't. Like I couldn't buy food. Like my clients were like from Australia, we're like sending me money because you're like, I cannot believe all America is like doing you guys, right?

Like, it sucks. It's suck to lose my home. It's hard to sleep on couches and to like stay with my mom. You know, like I'm 33 years old. It was awful. And I can see how, you know, if whatever, like, I see how you get there. And if we're willing to, like, talk to those people and be like, actually, the people who are obstructing unemployment. You know, my dad tried to tell me something about how great the Republicans were.

And I was like, actually, dad, Bernie Sanders is why I'm not like. literally have not killed myself. You know, like, he's why I'm getting this extra $600 a week. Like, what are you talking about? You know, and if people, if we can, like, reach people and make them realize that, you know, I think there is hope to, like, pull people, you know, to the left. I think a lot of people just operate within their own self-interest. And I think, you know, we look at them and we say, oh, you're voting against your self-interest.

But in their minds, they're not. And if we can show them reality, and if you have, I just always always, you know, I just always, feel like if you don't believe that, like what's the point? Because it's half the country. Why bother? Yeah, I think that you put that so, so nicely. You mentioned London earlier. I have two final questions. Where can folks follow you? And what's next for you? Do you have any updates or news that you can share maybe question mark? So you can follow me on Twitter is where I'm most annoying. So Twitter. That's not true. You're one of my favorite Twitter follows.

Thank you. So Twitter, TikTok, or Instagram at No Turtle Soup, 17. And then next to me is that I am hoping someone lets me write a book. And if they do that, I'm going to London to write it because I can't write it here. I'll just drink too much and hang out with my friends too much. I'll never get done. So I got to go far away. I know like eight people in London. That's way fewer people than I know here. I think it's a good bet. Beautiful. Amanda Moore. Well, thank you so much for bringing so much of yourself to this conversation. If you want to tune into more conversations like this, check out my podcast. There are no girls on the internet on IHeartRadio. New episodes drop every Tuesday. I am Bridgeton. This has been amazing.

Thank you for hanging with me for our first podcast taping. We did it. Yeah, that's right. We did it together. There we go. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangodi.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode.

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