There Are No Girls on the Internet - Nina Jankowicz was a right-wing target. Now she’s suing Fox News for defamation.

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

In the first episode of our miniseries Present Future, Bridget talks with disinformation expert Nina Jankowicz. After being appointed to a position in the Biden administration to combat disinformation, she was targeted by a right wing smear campaign that upended her life and impacted her family. Now, she’s suing Fox News for defamation. Are defamation lawsuits a new blueprint for how to combat harmful lies and harassment in the future? Listening to Nina's story, it's clear we need a change. New Defamation Suit Against Fox Signals Continued Legal Threat: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/10/business/media/defamation-suit-fox-nina-jankowicz.html IF YOU WANNA SUPPORT THE SHOW, GET MORE CONTENT BY SUBSCRIBING TO OUR BRAND NEW PATREON! Patreon.com/tangoti See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'll see you over on Patreon. Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right? A young woman who has authentically lived her life on the internet. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. In this brand new season that we're calling present future, we're looking to what's next. the future of tech, the future of discourse, the future of platforms, and the future of us. But we're starting in kind of a familiar place.

We've already spent a lot of time talking about disinformation. And I usually ask experts one question. So when you think about the direction of our media ecosystem and disinformation, are you hopeful? Like when you look on the horizon, are you hopeful about what's next? When it comes to the future of combating disinformation, more and more, we're seeing some targets of particularly heinous disinformation campaign. using the judicial system to fight back. E. Jean Carroll successfully sued former President Trump

for defamation after he claimed that her allegation that he sexually abused her was a lie. It wasn't, and a jury ruled against him. And Carol has said that she may even sue Trump again because Trump doubled down on that defamatory lie in a disastrous CNN town hall the very next day after that ruling. And after Dominion voting systems sued Fox News for falsely claiming that its voting machines through the 2020 election, Fox settled for $787 million, pretty much acknowledging that the network promoting lies about the election in 2020 was defamatory. And now, a new defamation lawsuit against Fox News may provide a signal about the future of telling lies for profit. Last year, one of the nation's leading disinformation experts, Nina Jenkowitz, was appointed by Biden

to head up the Disinformation Governance Board within the Department of Homeland Security to learn Turnabout and counter disinformation. And immediately afterward, Nina and her family were targeted with lies, threats, and harassment. All while she was pregnant. Days ago, Nina filed a defamation lawsuit against Fox News. Could this be the blueprint of how we curb disinformation in the future? Shortly after Nina was named to the governance board, I was scheduled to interview her about her book, How to Be a Woman Online, which chronicles online harassment.

but we couldn't because Nina had to retreat from public life after the harassment campaign against her got so bad. And strangely enough, Nina isn't even the first person that I've had to navigate interviewing while they were basically off the grid because of threats. And the continued sting of being silenced and not getting to do her work because of lies and threats was looming large when I finally did get to speak to Nina. So the first time that you and I were supposed to talk, we were not able to do the interview because you were at the the target of some pretty nasty, heinous harassment. So I have to start by just asking, how are you? I am doing okay now, Bridget. Thanks for asking. I mean, it is difficult to recover from something like what happened to me, which kind of upended my entire life and the career plan I had. And just kind of the short version, the TLDR of what happened to me is I was appointed to a

position in the Biden administration to work on a working group that was many. to kind of bring together bodies within the Department of Homeland Security that were working on counter disinformation. That working group was misconstrued in the press and mostly the right wing press as a Ministry of Truth that was going to have the power to censor Americans. Of course, we had no such power. Operationally, we had no power. We had no full-time staff except for me and no budget.

So I don't know where they thought we were going to do all this. But at any rate, it was totally misconstrued. my personal life and like my online presence and all sorts of things got dragged through the mud. I was eight and a half months pregnant at the time. And I ended up leaving the department not because of the harassment really, but because the department wasn't sticking up for me or for the work. And they ended up disbanding the working group and saying there was no need for it, which I think is laughable at best.

And so since then, I obviously have my baby. I've been kind of taking some maternity leave, taking time with my family, and have kind of been recalibrating what it is I want to do and how I want to show up and make an impact in the world. And after my unfortunate experience with public service, it's kind of bringing me to the conclusion that really the work that I want to do has to happen from outside of government, at least right now, at least with this administration. Wow. You know, I, where do I even start? I'll say it's something interesting to me that you wrote a book about how you survive online harassment as a woman and found yourself at a really weird time in your life, like at the target of that. And it reminds me a lot of like what I know about things like reputational smear campaigns where it's interesting to me that, like, the administration did not support you. It would have been, I would have expected, they obviously

respected your leadership enough to give you this position. And then to turn around and so quickly distance themselves from you is really telling to me. And I think that's one of the ways that reputational smears work. They want the target to feel isolated. And they want to make it seem that if somebody sticks up for them, that will be a bad look for them. So rather than supporting you, they just are like, oh, what's this distance? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I do have to say I'll give credit where credit is due. You know, Secretary Mayorkas went on the Sunday shows and called me like an eminent expert.

And Jen Saki had some talking points to say at the White House podium about me. But when you're confronting the entire GOP lie and rage machine, it's just not enough. Like I was on every, I think 70% of Fox News hourly segments for like an entire week. and it continued for two weeks after that, too. Like, everyone was like, oh, it'll go away. Don't worry about it. It didn't because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right? A young woman who has authentically lived her life on the internet.

It's easy to think of people who work on issues like disinformation as uptight scolds. It's actually a misconception that I've encountered a lot in my work. But Nina's vibe is really lively and full of energy. And it lends itself perfectly to a platform like TikTok, where she made a cute video of her singing in a Mary Poppin style, about disinformation. Nina loves musical theater. Now, this is the kind of thing that anybody might try to do to connect on their issues with a new audience. But if you were watching Fox News, you would think this was criminal. They played Nina's TikTok over and over again and turned it

into an attack, not just an attack on Nina's work, but on Nina as a person. Part angry feminist, part frustrated karaoke singer, Janquitz is the last person who should be trusted with distinguishing between fact and fiction. Like there are videos of me performing musical theater. People like to make fun of that. I had a TikTok video where I was like trying to connect with a different audience by doing a parody of a Mary Poppins song. It was very tongue-in-cheek and very deliberately silly and campy.

And everyone was like, oh, my God, this is so cringe. It's not fucking cringe. I'm sorry. It's not cringe. It's exactly what I wanted it to be. And I'm not embarrassed of it at all, frankly. Like Tucker Carlson kept playing it over and over on his. show and it's like, thanks, Tucker. Like, now more people have heard me saying than I could ever have

hoped for in my entire life. But, um, but what you say is true. Like, I think like I wasn't close enough for the administration for them to want to stick their neck out for me. Um, and the work clearly wasn't important enough for them to like risk everything for it. And that's disappointing because what is more at the core of our democracy right now than how our body politic deals with information, right? Or disinformation, frankly. And so that was really disappointing. And it was also disappointing because the Biden administration made such a big deal about hiring women and people of color to political appointments and to the cabinet. And it's like, okay, if you're above a certain level, they're going to go to bat for you. But not if you're, you know, at the level that I am,

which frankly, you know, for the amount of attention that people paid to me, you'd think I was like God, but I was just a GS-15, which was like a high-ranking but not Senate-confirmed appointee in Washington with very little decision-making power. I wasn't like, you know, all-powerful in DHS. I had a lot of layers above me, which, you know, was illustrated by the way that the whole thing was rolled out. If it had had been rolled out more transparently the way that I had kind of asked for within the department, I wouldn't have been in as bad a situation as I would let's take a quick break another podcast from some

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Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies,

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They wouldn't let me, you know, speak up for myself, which again, if I were above a certain level, I would have been able to do that. So the whole thing was frustrating. And it also just kind of goes to show that, like, there's a lot of work left to do in our institutions, not just government, but, you know, in journalistic institutions, et cetera, for sticking up for people who are on, like, the public facing side of things, especially women and people of color who receive such outsized harassment online and in real life as well. Yeah. I mean, I, to prepare for this interview, I watched some of the clips, like interviews that you gave on shows.

I'm not going to say any names. There was one, I was like, this guy is basically being like, I heard this lie about you, thoughts. And it was like, yeah, it's not true. You know, like, I definitely think that it kind of pommeth me out that media, the people that we ostensibly should be able to count on to help people discern the truth. Really don't feel any obligation to do that. And in some cases, they inflame the tensions and lies and give them more oxygen and allow them to spread. when they should be in the business of truth spreading and debunking. You know, I've seen people say things like, oh, this board was going to have the ability

to, like, control what regular people say. And I've also seen you in interviews be very clear that if that were the case, you wouldn't be on that board because you deeply oppose that. Like, we're not trafficking in truth and honest statements. We're trafficking in lies and smears. And we're not going to get anywhere if that's how we continue to do discourse. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was so, why.

One of the worst days was when I woke up and I, I mean, it was just like three weeks of hell, but I woke up one morning when I was still at the department and Bill Maher had on his show the night before just spread an absolute complete piece of BS about me. The czar Nina Jenkowitz says she'd like some committee there within this governing board with the power to, quote, edit Twitter and add content. Oh, you mean like what Twitter is? That's what Twitter is. Somebody says something and then you add context. These are not bright people in our government. Okay.

An anonymous account online that had been for weeks going through like all the videos of me ever posted to the internet. They had taken a clip from a conversation that I had with a bunch of librarians in the state of Georgia. and it was back from January 2021. They had taken it completely out of context and made it seem like I had kind of floated this idea of editing people's tweets. But what I had actually done,

and if you watch the entire kind of conversation, it is clear, someone asks me, hey, Nina, I just heard about this thing on Twitter called Birdwatch. Can you tell us about it? And for your listeners that might not know, Birdwatch is a program that allows people to add context to things that are trending on Twitter. So, like, let's use Ukraine as an example. In the Ukraine war, if people are claiming something that's trending, like Russia was

responsible for this attack or Ukraine was responsible for this attack, people who are, you know, trusted individuals can get access to this Birdwatch platform, which is now, since then, open to everybody and just add some context and say, okay, okay, here's a link to a news article. Here are the facts in this scenario. It's kind of like a built-in fact-checking platform. I was not super familiar with it at the time, but I was like, I don't like this because I don't want users to be kind of the ones that are doing Twitter's work for it. And I had this long, involved, nuanced answer that I went on for five minutes. He chopped one minute of it up, and I assume it's a man because, like, let's be honest.

Yeah. So I don't know, because he is anonymous, but I think it's a man. He chopped one part of it up and just put in his tweet, Nina wants to edit your tweets. And this one absolutely viral. Reputable reporters were being like, what if this is true? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Bill Maher, without any ounce of fact-checking, whatever, goes to his huge audience on his late-night show and says, Nina Jenkowitz and the disinformation governance board want to be able to edit your tweets. And it's just like, first of all, it's a stupid idea. Like, no, I would never ask for. for that. And second of all, like, it's not, no one tried to do any bit of fact-checking at all. If you follow the video back to where it came from, you can find out that actually, that's

not what I said at all. And it was not just Bill Maher, but other journalists who, who, frankly, were just recycling this disinformation and not doing their due diligence at all. And it is disinformation, right? Disinformation just isn't about cut and dry fakes or falsehoods. It's about misleading information. And there was a lot of misleading information present. about me. In fact, I just got some more abuse and threats this week because somebody on Fox mentioned me and I was like, huh, what's this uptick about? And I found that Greg Gutfeld had talked about me in a segment recently. And so one person wrote to me on Facebook and said that I should be thrown in jail for spreading lies about President Trump. And it's like, it's interesting how they

want to censor me, right? But they're not okay with other people censoring them. And that's never what I wanted to do in the first place. It's just so circuitous and crazy. Anyway, I'll stop that. thing now. Yeah. I mean, does it, do you find that it comes in waves like that where it, the harassment sort of stops and then somebody will mention you and then you're like, oh, an uptick and then down is that, is that kind of how it trends? Oh, 100%. And it's always interesting to find out what the kernel is. So like for the first probably seven weeks or so, it was just pretty constant, especially the first three weeks. It was just constant messages, constant DMs, constant tweets, people trying to friend me on Facebook and Instagram and whatever I had to lock my Instagram and

accounts because there was personal stuff on there that like I was comfortable with like the level of public figureness that I had before people seeing that. But now with people doxing me and calling my mother and sending me letters to my home, like not as comfortable. So, so there was that. But then, you know, the craziest thing was the culpability that I think some members of Congress have. And I actually wrote a letter to Josh Hawley and Chuck Grassley because they continued this kind of, or like continued perpetrating this harassment of me. And I felt like calling them out for it

because as members of Congress, particularly as senators, they're supposed to be like the more serious deliberative body, right? Here's Josh Hawley. And your priority is setting up a board and hiring someone who has gone to TikTok to talk about stopping speech she doesn't like who has mocked voters, supporters of the last president,

that has been your priority. To say that your priorities are misplaced, I think, is a dramatic understatement. And the time has come, I think, Mr. Secretary, for you to resign. And Josh Hawley on July 18th, so two full months after I had resigned to the day from DHS, he brought me up in a hearing on drones, for some reason. There was an acting assistant secretary from DHS, who I used to work with, who was there. and he spent half of his time, half of his allotted time, questioning her about my hiring two months after I had resigned rather than talking about, you know, unmanned aerial vehicles, right? And so I was just incensed by this because it matched with an uptick and harassment I got. So I sent them a letter. I posted it publicly and both of them just doubled down on it rather than saying, you know, we're sorry for the harassment that you and your family are getting at this like, you know, special time in your life.

life. I had a six week old at the time, right? We're sorry for this harassment. We're going to condemn the people who have been sending you threats. We're going to continue our oversight duty as senators, but we're going to pull back from like our focus on you. Instead, they both doubled down. And so I think this is a really sad kind of situation that we find ourselves in in America where there are people who are, again, supposed to be setting the tone and example for the way our discourse works, tacitly, if not overtly and deliberately engaging in harassment campaigns against people on the other side. These things have life or death consequences. And I'm not the only one to have gone through this stuff, right? We see senators in the GOP endorsing like lips of TikTok or whatever. And

those people are literally like engaging in stochastic terrorism campaigns that are about to bubble over into real life, right? They're going to have real life consequences for trans people. and in some cases already have. We're just in this really precarious situation, and I feel like we need some accountability, and it's just not happening. I don't know what it's going to take. We've gone through a pandemic that's had public safety consequences for the nation. We've gone through, you know, an insurrection. We've gone through protests that have been based on, to some degree, disinformation that have bubbled up into clashes, that have killed people. I'm thinking of Kenosha, right? And like, what's it going to take before we come to our senses and either elect

people who care about the truth or like start to have some laws governing what you say online the same way that we do on the street? I think people forget that free speech in America is not absolute, right? Like if people were saying these things to me or to anybody who gets harassed online on the street, you'd be able to get out a restraining order out on them. You'd be able to call the cops, but the internet is like this ungoverned and ungovernable place. And I think that's that's kind of scary, given how much we live our lives on the internet these days. Yeah, I mean, I think about this all the time of like, what is it going to take? What do you think is the answer to that question? Like, do you think that anything would rise to the level where people will be like,

gee, we need to do something? You know, I thought that maybe we were having that call to action moment last fall when Francis Howgan released her whistleblower documents and there were these, you know, series of hearings on the Hill and people were so shocked about everything that she was saying, that it was confirmed, you know, this is what was happening to children, this is what was happening to different populations around the world, this was what was happening to women. And then, you know, that just kind of fizzled out. Like maybe it moved the needle. Maybe maybe senators now and members of the House are a little bit more wise to what was being said. And she did come from a nonpartisan perspective, which I think was important to kind of diffuse

the polarization of this debate, which shouldn't be polarized at all, right? This is not a polarization issue. This affects human beings. It affects our democracy, no matter what political party you're from. But there doesn't seem to have been kind of that momentum fulfilled there. And I hope that we can pick that back up. But after my experience, I'm pretty pessimistic, right? Like, it is really depressing to me that millions, literally millions of my fellow Americans

have come into contact with me and been told to hate me because I'm young, female, and had the gall to take a job in my area of expertise trying to help my country. Right? I was not motivated by politics and taking that job. And in fact, prior to everything that happened to me, I used to say I would take a job working for a reasonable Republican who wanted to work on the issues that I wanted to work on, whether they were, you know, Russia or something about disinformation online. I don't think I could say that anymore with a straight face, right? Because of the lengths they went to ruin my life. And that was deliberate, right?

You said something about smear campaigns before. it was explicit that people were saying, we want to make her toxic to the Biden administration. And I just think that's really, it's un-American, frankly. So I don't know what the answer is to your question, Bridget. I think we're in a really bad situation, and I don't know what it's going to take. And I fear what it's going to take to wake everybody up. Do you think that you would have gotten the same level of hate and targeted violence, like online violence against you, had you been a man? No. I think not at all. I have to

imagine. No, no, right? Because like, first of all, I think Tucker Carlson even said something point blank. It's like Taylor Lorenz and the Nina Jenkowitz's of the world that I hate the most, like educated white women who think that they, educated young white women who think that they can tell us what to do or something like that. And it's like, I'm not telling you what to do, but the fact that I exist and that I'm like putting myself into a sphere that you existed is what bothers you, right? So no, there's that part to it. And then the fact that I'm, I was young and also pregnant, like people talked about my, my family status constantly. On Fox, they said things very famously about like, how could Biden hire her when she's about to go on maternity leave?

And it's like, because it's against the law to discriminate against someone. because of their their parental status. Not to mention that like there was the opposite side of the coin with people saying like, how could anyone impregnate her or like, I bet she's infertile after this one? Like it was just like, why is this even something that I'm being talking about? And men absolutely never get that stuff. And in fact, if they're found to be cheating or philandering, like they're celebrated for that. And plus, you know, there was the stuff about my looks and weight gain during pregnancy. Men were like enlarging pictures of my chin, which had some pregnancy acne on it. God forbid, it's not something you can really control. They were talking about my weight gain.

Like, then after I gave birth and the New York Times took a picture of me for a, for a article they did. The first thing a couple of guys said was that I had big boobs. And it was like, well, yeah, I'm breastfeeding right now. One guy actually was like, imagine if she, what she did with those boobs was, I think they used a different word, obviously, was feed children instead of spread lies. And it's like, funny, you should mention that. But it's just like a man would never, right? And they say all the time, oh, we get the same sort of stuff. And it's like, no, like the worst sort of sexualized something that somebody could call you is a dick, right?

And that's not so bad. It's certainly not calling you Joe Biden's cum dumpster, which is one of the many things that people have said to me. Yeah, it's so upsetting. And I also feel like when it comes to women, when women are harassed, it's not just them. It's their partner. It's their mom. It's their kids. It's, it's her family and the people around her. And so it adds this extra layer of, I don't know, like something you have to think about where it's like, well, do I really want to engage in like this public line of work? Because I don't want my partner to be harassed. I don't want my kids to be targeted. Yeah, 100%. And a lot of the women that I've interviewed in the course of my research for my book, as well as the research I've done on women in politics, they bring that up a lot, especially women of color. So for women of color, often what will happen is they'll get doxed more frequently than white women or their families will be threatened. So one woman in a focus group that I did was, I mean, this just really stuck with me. She said, you know, we don't, we will often get. messages that say, oh, we hope your son doesn't end up like Trayvion Martin or things like that. And it's just like, I mean, especially as a mom, but I hope that that resonates with anybody. Like, it's clearly a threat, number one. And number two, like, what a horrible thing to say. It's just like layers upon layers of intersectional abuse. And that's where the platforms, I think, really fall short.

they'll see something like that and AI certainly won't understand the intent behind that. And even if you write a little note to Twitter or to Facebook and say like, look at this, this is racist, violent threat, they're not going to take it down because it's not, it doesn't say like explicitly, I want to come kill your son or I hope someone comes to kill your son. And I don't know. I mean, I think we have a long way to go there. And certainly as women, as you say, it's not just us. It's our families. It's like I had to call up, you know, my brother who shares the last name with me and hope and say, you know, I hope that the boys, your sons have their social media

profiles locked down. Like, what a heartbreaking conversation to have to have with a bunch of teenagers who probably want to do the exact opposite, you know. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy. Guy not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group

perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasts. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think Iheart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-Eight-4-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back.

Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levin this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life.

Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. I keep reading these articles about how historic numbers of women and women of color and black women are running for office, which is great. But I know the reality is that they have to have this extra layer of consideration, not to mention extra expense of thinking about, you know, online and digital security in these ways and in real life security in these ways. And it really, do you feel like we're in a situation where that is just,

the cost of wanting to be in public service for these folks? Like, we're just like, oh, yeah, like, you have to factor that in when you, if you want to run for office or be a public figure or really just engage in civic life and civic discourse. Unfortunately, it is the cost, but it absolutely should not be the cost. That should not be normal. We shouldn't just roll over and say, if you're a woman or a woman of color or disabled woman or a trans woman in politics, that, or in public life writ large, that you have to spend all this extra money. I mean, let me just list a couple of the things that I pay for. I have an anti-doxing service that scrubs my personal information from the internet and that of my family.

That's a couple hundred dollars a year. I have, we had to upgrade our home security after everything happened because, again, we were doxed. If we ever decide to move from the house that got doxed, we'll have to probably pay a lawyer to put our home in a trust so that that doesn't happen again. Let's see. I also pay for block party, which if your listeners haven't heard of it, is a really good tool for basically anybody dealing with online abuse. It will auto-mute people interacting with you, and you can have kind of different levels of sensitivity for the replies that you want to get through on Twitter. You can also block people if they've liked or retweeted an abusive or threatening tweet.

as a result of using Block Party. I've blocked quite a few people because I don't want to, I don't frankly want to interact with anybody who thinks it's funny to like delight in one of the worst things ever happening to me. So I mean, already that's like a couple hundred dollars a year and for freelance journalists or for people who, you know, are working in nonprofit jobs or things like that, even government jobs. Like the government certainly, did not compensate me enough for what I went through. Let's just say that. And, you know, I, I am lucky that I was able to have enough savings to cover that stuff. But there was a time not so long ago, a couple years ago, before my first book came out, where, like, I wasn't paying

taxes because I wasn't making enough profit to be paying taxes, you know? So it's real. The cost is real and it is not fair. And we need to make sure that, especially in journalism, that when freelancers are being hired, that they're being compensated adequately and that they're covered legally by the publishers that they're working for, that any institution, be it academic, government, nonprofit, et cetera, they're covering their employees as well because the way that you feel safe to speak up is knowing that people have got your back and they've got your back in a material way, not just like, you know, a philosophical way. Like, of course we, of course we support your right to free speech. But when push comes to shove, they're not going to, you know,

pay for you to relocate if you need to or pay for a lawyer. All that stuff is super, super important. Yeah, that's something I see a lot of, like, particularly in newsrooms where, you know, if a young woman journalist is being targeted or threatened, I don't know. I think that we're just starting to have a conversation about how newsrooms can be supportive. But I think for a long time, it was just like, good luck. And also don't talk about it publicly because it will make us look bad. So just suffer in silence and be isolated and get no support and turn that shame inward. And we will continue to function business as usual. I think that like, what you said about cost, material cost is such a good point. And I think back to like, when I

was a freelance journalist, I made no money, right? I was like really barely getting by, like scraping by and to be expected to shoulder this burden that my male white colleagues will never have to shoulder. It's just not fair. It's not equitable. No, no, not at all. And like, then on the government side, too, going back to the whole thing about like Biden, you know, making a commendable effort to hire people of color and women into his administration, I think, and I've said this to people in the administration since this happened to me. Like, not only do you need to be prepared to stick up for those people, but there's probably some conversation that you need to have with some people a certain level or above saying,

like, okay, here's the types of things that might happen to you. Like, let's make sure that you are protected. Let's make sure that you can put in a registration or a like deregistration request to the county to get your name off of the documents for your house because you're a public official now. Like, yes, in my mind, did that cross my mind as like something that might happen? Sort of. I hoped that it wouldn't. I didn't think it was going to be as bad as it was. But like, probably everybody in our polarized environment who's going into government should get that kind of counsel. Anybody going into public service, not just at the federal level.

I mean, look what's happening to election workers, right? It's the sad truth of the time that we live in and the tactics that people are using to try to get their way. But it takes a toll. And like without loved ones, without friends who have been helping me go through my replies and, like, helping me keep track of the mentions of me on alternative news streams and things like that. I mean, I don't know what I would have done. Probably just, like, completely retreated from the online space.

And that's exactly what it's meant to do, right? It's meant to push us out to silence us. And I'm not going to let that happen. I'm glad there are people around me who don't want that to happen to me. But not everybody has that. Not everybody has that monetary psychological support that is so critical to getting through these difficult times. And they're happening to more and more people. It's great to want to elect women, support women, hire women.

But you also need to be honest about what those women will face and have an understanding of what you're going to do to create the conditions for that woman to thrive because you can't just be like, yes, support black women, yes, like more women, this and that. But then like once they get to the place that you champion them to get to, they are on their own for this highly charged attacks that they will face because they got to this position that you said that you wanted them to be in. Like it has to be a fuller conversation about what it looks like. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I don't know what, I say this a lot. Like, in, future positions, whether they're in public service or not, like when I'm being interviewed, what will I say?

Like, will I be like, and if X, Y, and Z happens, what are you guys going to do? Like, I feel like I'm going to run this trust deficit for the rest of my life. And I don't know that a lot of organizations are going to have a good answer, but, like, can I, in good conscience, go into that sort of environment if I don't feel either like I've got somebody supporting me or a group of people supporting me, or am I going to have the authority to be able to make the decisions that will create those support systems for other people. I don't know. And it's hard for me also to encourage young women to go into public service after what happened to me. I've been giving them the advice like, if you want to do it,

you should do it, but just recognize what's in the realm of possibility, unfortunately. So speaking of that, you know, the book, How to Be a Woman Online, what advice do you have for women who are just trying to exist on the internet? You know, you mentioned earlier in our interview that you were really attacked for being a woman who has lived your life and had social media the way that we all have. And they created a cost for that. They dinged you for doing something that in 2022, we all do. And so I guess my question is like, what kind of advice do you give for women listening who want to participate in civic and public life are also on women online? You know, what do you say? Yeah, it's a really delicate balance.

So I've interviewed people who run the gamut of like they've kind of kept a lot of their personal stuff off the internet to like people like me who are super, super online, right? and I still have no regrets. Like, I, again, that TikTok video still not embarrassed of it to this day. The things that people were making fun of. It did numbers. Like, you're like kind of prolific on TikTok. Well, I've had to lock it down now. I don't even do it anymore.

But I'm trying to get into Instagram Reels. It's hard. It's hard for a millennial like me. I'm like, what is this? But, you know, like, I don't regret any. of it, but I also recognize that it's not for everybody. And so I think there's a delicate balance. You have to draw that line for yourself. The thing that I encourage everybody to do is no matter how you're going to interact online to understand what's going to keep you safe, tech-wise,

and op-sec-wise. So, like, don't post pictures of you in front of your house or, like, at the bar you frequent, right? Like, it is so easy for bad actors to geolocate you. Look what happened to Keffels where she was docks a second time just based on the pattern of the hotel sheets to the hotel she had fled to with her cat, right? Like, we have to be extraordinarily careful. But if you're posting things not in real time, like have a little bit of a lag. If you're not posting from the same location and giving away, like, clues to your pattern of life, that's, much better online practice for pictures and videos and things like that. When it comes to IT security, just a couple of easy fixes that are kind of set it and forget it for everybody.

Make sure, you know, you're using two-factor authentication, complex passwords and a password manager. If you're traveling to dangerous countries, like authoritarian countries, basically, you'll probably want to have like a burner phone or a burner laptop to make sure that your comms are secure. Using a VPN is a good idea when you're on, you know, more open Wi-Fi and not on your home network. Things like that, I think, are just really important for people who might be targets of hacking or other kind of cyber harassment issues from doxing to cyberstocking. All of that's super important for you to keep in mind. And that, knowing that I have that extra layer of security, like, makes me feel more empowered

to speak out. And then beyond that, cultivating a network of people who get what you do and who you can go to when the going gets tough. And that's harder than it seems the first time I dealt with online harassment, which admittedly was nothing compared to what I went through this spring. A lot of my friends and family didn't get it, right? Like they were like, ah, just ignore the trolls. Don't feed the trolls. Don't go on Twitter. And I'm like, but my life and my work is on Twitter, right? You're, you're basically asking me to not work and not put myself out there. And I think once they understood that, then I had a little bit more support. But frankly, the people that I rely on most when this stuff is going on are the super online writers and folks who are kind of in my sphere

that understand how this stuff works. And so cultivate that community for yourself. I think that's paramount, frankly. And I hope that everybody's able to do it. And if you ever need anything, you know, shout out, reach out. I'm happy to help listeners. And of course, you, Bridget. it however I can. I know you had written me a note when when the shit was going down and I appreciated that. That stuff goes a long way. So if you see everybody else going through stuff, be an active online bystander, you know, report stuff, send them a note of solidarity. All of it matters. Yeah, I think that's such good advice because I think these kinds of attacks, they are meant to make the person feel isolated. And so just knowing that like, I'm not isolated, people see what's happening

to me and they support me is so key. And it's interesting. I was at this gathering for people who work in the conspiracy theory space. And one of the questions that they asked early on was, you know, what are some of the particulars of doing this work? And almost everybody said some version of my partner, my friends don't really get what I do. And so I am carrying around a lot of like very specific baggage that the people around me can't even necessarily. really unpack or understand or even really see. And I really felt that. It was like, yeah, you are dealing with some particular stuff that is so specific and can be so heavy and ugly and hard. And you're sometimes just dealing with it in a way that feels like you're alone.

Yeah. And even when people do reach out, you know, and this is not their fault at all, but like still, to this day, people will say to me, you know, I'm so sorry for what you're, what you went through. Or like back when it was all happening, they'd be like, is there anything I can do? And like, the answer is no for the most part. Like, with the exception of your close friends, just like coming by with food and like trying to take you out of it, watching some trashy TV or something like that, like, there's not much that people can really do besides listen. And even then, you're talking to them about it.

And all they can do is like nod and pat you on the back unless they've gone through it too. And so again, that's why those very specific networks of super online people were really. really important to me when it was all kind of happening. But that also brings me to another important point, which is therapy is so important. Without my therapist, I definitely would be kind of lost. And she has done a really important kind of reminding me that like what you went through is not normal and it's okay to still feel kind of shitty about it. And, no one's expecting you to have recovered from it already. Like you're still allowed to have feelings about it and be mad about it and be sad about it and

frustrated. And that's been really important. And I have a whole section in my book about like the role that that has played again, even before the worst harassment that I've dealt with and some resources for folks who maybe can't afford therapy because it is the way our insurance system works here is totally stupid and like paying out of pocket is ridiculous and difficult. But if your insurance doesn't cover it, there are options for you. If you're on a campus, a lot of universities have good mental health services.

A lot of states also have either groups that you can go to or like low-cost therapists you can access. And then a lot of therapists have sliding scale fees as well so that folks who are on lower income can access those services. And I think it's really important. And there's this stigma around accessing mental health. health services, but push yourself to get over that hurdle because it's a great resource to have. Absolutely. And I guess that brings me to one of my last questions of like, you deal with a lot. You deal with a lot. What keeps you, like what brings you joy? What makes you happy? How do you, how do you reconnect with Nina and recharge? Like what, what, what, what does that cup for you?

That's a hard one because my life has changed so substantively since all this happened, like literally four weeks, three weeks before I gave birth as like when I resigned from the government. So I'm a totally different person, not just because of like my entire life outlook changing, but because I'm a mom now. So like hanging out with my kid, love that. And it truly is a life-changing experience to be the sole source of food and like protector of another human being. I'm really lucky to have, you know, a great husband who is an amazing dad and has been an amazing partner through like something he definitely did not sign up for when we got married 10 years ago. That is for sure. So spending time with them has been great. Connecting with nature.

So I love hiking and I've just started getting back to hiking post-pregnancy. So getting back outdoors has been great. Travel really kind of fills my cup and like experiencing different perspectives. And I'm also a huge music fan and theater fan. And that has been somewhat dampened during the pandemic because of large gatherings. And I haven't been able to do a show since pre-pandemic. And it probably won't happen for a while now that I have a young kid. But, you know, enjoying the arts, experiencing that, connecting with other people that way, I think is something that's so special.

And that's also, you know, not to bring it back to the abuse and make it sad. But that's one of the things that's most peculiar about, like, the abuse against me, people saying, like, she's a theater kid. As if, like, I'm sorry, is that a crime? Like, also musical theater is one of our, like, uniquely American exports, right? Like, it's a way that America contributes to culture around the world. And I don't know. Are these people seriously telling me they've never enjoyed a musical in their life? If so, like, whatever.

Girl, musical theater kids, like, theater kids make the world go around. If we didn't have theater kids, there wouldn't be joy in the world. Thank God for, like, enthusiastic, like, young people who enthusiastically enjoy things and make things. And you know what? Like, it's, it's, I'm tired of. of this narrative that it's uncool to be happy or enthusiastic about something. Like, yeah, I'm a nerd. And I'm like, totally okay with that. We should all wear that proudly. Some people nerd out about cars. I nerd out about lyrics from musicals and music and like, you know,

to each their own. That's the beautiful thing about America, right? And so anyway, I've gone off on a tangent now, but those are the things that keep me happy. Also, like, I do identify with what Hillary Clinton said about the worst times of her life where she just, she focused on the work. And so I have been absolutely wholeheartedly, probably too much throwing myself into the work since I've been back from maternity leave. And I'm really committed to building a better internet, whether that's an internet free from disinformation coming from Russia or an internet that's free from nasty abuse coming from right and frankly some far left wing men on the internet. Well, I'm so grateful that we have you in this work. I'm glad that you seem like you're doing,

that you've got your people, you've got your community because Lord knows we need you, especially right now. Well, thank you, Bridget. You know, I think you got me on a slightly more optimistic sunny day. There are definitely days where I'm dropping F bombs left and right and hate everyone. But no, I'm here. And my message to everybody who's going through this or might go through this at some point is like, don't give one inch back. And I'm not giving an inch. I'm going to go a mile ahead, though. Nina filed her defamation lawsuit against Fox News last Wednesday.

She can't get back what they took from her. But maybe her lawsuit and others like it will change the math for big networks that traffic and lies and disinformation. Thanks for listening to the first episode of Present Future, brought to the last. you by their No Girls on the Internet. Next week, I'll be interviewing author, activist, and OG Twitter personality, Mickey Kendall, who built her platform on the early days of Twitter.

We talk about what it was like back then, how it changed, and where she sees the Twitter community going in the future. And I have to make one more plug for the Patreon. I'm really excited to use it as a way to connect with all of you, and to share exclusive interviews and writings with the patrons who support the show. Just go to patreon.com and search for there are no girls on the

internet. And as always, I would love to hear from you at hello at tangoody.com. Let us know what you thought of today's episode and what kind of stories that you'd like to hear during the rest of this season as we investigate this weird, present, future. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

It's a production of Iheart Radio and unbossed creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

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