There Are No Girls on the Internet - Part Two: The Online & Real Life Harassment of Marginalized Elected Officials

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

In the conclusion of this two part episode, Bridget continues her conversation with journalist and comedian Francesca Fiorentini to talk through the midterm elections and how online harassment keeps women from succeeding in elected office.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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844-844-I-Hart. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world, like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Welcome back to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. So this is the final installment of our two-part episode with Francesca Burrentini, where we look at the ways that harassment online keeps women, particularly women of color and black women, from being able to run for and hold public office safely and how that impacts our democracy more broadly. So in our last episode, we talked about some national leaders like Kamala Harris. And in this episode, we're zeroing in to look at some specific women in

local public offices and the harassment and abuse that they faced just for trying to do their jobs. So, you know, we're talking about Harris, but I want to make it clear that when comes to women who are running for public office, it is not always like flashy candidates with well-funded campaigns who are like running for a presidential administration. We're often talking about women running for like local offices, like school boards in their community or county commissioners. So I want to talk about a few examples of what I mean. The first is Tammy Sawyer. We'll actually hopefully hear from Tammy Sawyer in her own words later in the season. But I want to talk about her time as an elected official in Memphis. So Tammy Sawyer got her start in

activism. She felt called to public service watching the acquittal of George Zimmerman during the murder of Trayvon Martin and the grand jury decision not to try Darren Wilson through the death of Mike Brown. She became a pretty visible figure in the movement for Black Lives. In 2015, she organized a visual in honor of Tamir Rice at the Health Sciences Park in Memphis. If you've ever been there in the last few years, you know that it had a statue of Confederate General and Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard, Nathan Bedford Forrest, the namesake for the movie Forrest Gump. Fun fact. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. In 2017, Tammy Sawyer organized the hashtag Take Em Down 901 movement, which led to the statute being removed. In 2018 of August, she was elected to Shelby County Commissioner for District 7 in Memphis. So she was just, like, visible figure in the movement for Black Lives, but that thing that elevated her to the public stage also made her a huge target for white supremacists. Things came to ahead in June when she was doing a press conference at this park during the actual removal of the monument. So here's a little bit of, like, weird backstory. Through this,

like, very weird compromise, the group, sons of Confederate veterans were responsible for hiring and overseeing the construction project to remove this Confederate statue. It sounds like they never wanted this statue to be removed in the first place, and the team that they put together and hired to remove it seemed to reflect that, right? This team that they had was obviously not thrilled that these statues were coming down to say the least. Yeah, that's an interesting contractor. Yeah. Sons of the Confederate

veterans, like a Confederate statue enthusiasts. You know. I don't fully get it. No. Is there no one else

who can take down the statues? It's just the same people who put them up are also the people who take them down? That's the compromise. It has to be fair.

So the crew hired to take down these monuments, they ended up putting Confederate flags all over the job site It sounds like they intentionally covered this like Black Lives Matter mural with bricks while working just like petty shit, right? Just like petty stunt shit. That's how they were doing this for whatever reason.

I don't fully get like why or hell this happened, but petty stunt shit. So a member of that crew hired to remove the monument is a man named George K. Rack Johnson, who is the founding member of a group called Confederate 901, who has a history of like showing up in places where Confederate monuments are being taken down. They were the group, if you remember the group that was protesting a Confederate monument being taken down on Ole Miss. That was them. I found this very interesting. A piece in the Clarion Ledger says that the group is mostly white, shocker, but they do have a black member who led one of their marches in Memphis. So like, yay for inclusion.

Something else to know about this guy is that in addition to being a founding member of this Confederate group, he loves Facebook Live. and here's what he had to say about his own presence in Pittsburgh, North Carolina, on Facebook Live. Today, I was like, I want to go to Chapel Hill. I want to go to Pittsburgh. I want to go to where they've already removed the monument, you know? And honestly, yeah, I was looking to stir the pot. But, hey, they've been stirring the pot for a long damn time, and I'm about ready to make my own batch of stew, you know. Ugh.

All right. So that's him. I know something about that phrase. I know. What are you doing? You want to eat people? Yeah, it's literally what you're saying. What?

That was my understanding as well. Yeah, it's a very weird, gross analogy, and I don't like it at all. And so this is the person who is hired to be part of the construction crew to take down this monument. But to do it in the stuntiest way possible in Memphis, where Tammy Sawyer has led this campaign to remove these monuments. And while Tammy is trying to hold a press conference at this park, Johnson stands behind her marching back and forth holding a Confederate flag. He uses racist insults toward her. He sings the Confederate anthem Dixie as he's trying to speak. My God. Here's a little clip of what it sounded like outside the Health and Sciences Park in Memphis

that day. Media, they continue to threaten my life. I didn't threaten your life. When they continue to do all this, you say they're going to be my life. that you have it on record and they waved their racist confederate symbols behind. Remember. Okay? I came out here to give you all a statement and say that this was a powerful moment.

I was going to connect it to the Kosovo's a communist moment. I was going to connect it to Memphis Massacre. You know who else has been called a communist? They called Martin Luther King a communist. They called Neer Communist and Communists. They called the Black Panthers Communists. They called the Black Panthers Communists. James Baldwin.

was called a communist. And you're a communist. James Weldon Johnson was called a communist. And you're a communist. Muhammad Ali was called a communist. Make sure you get a picture of the man who just went into my life. The man who just said he was going to lay hands on it. And then make sure you go down there when they're arrested.

And remember that I do this by myself. No one comes with me. No, no security. All this coward's standing behind. So sad. Power. That's what these people are. They're cowards.

They're cow. So you said you were going to beat my ass. I'm right here. Hide behind the kids. Come beat my ass. I'm not going to be like if you was a man. I'm more a man than you are. Why more gentlemen than you.

Oh, yes, Tammy. Yes, Tammy. Remember that. Audrey Lord once said, they will kill you and say you like me. I'm not going to let him kill me. But if he does, you know who to go fine, right? Y'all know where to start. So that's really where things kind of come to a head.

And honestly, it's hard to watch that because I really feel for Tammy in that video. You know, she's just trying to do her job. She obviously has to respond in this moment with, like, grace because it's happening in public. And you don't want to give these people any fodder to be like, oh, she deserved it. You know, you can't really respond the way that you might want to because of all the negative stereotypes that women deal with that we talked about earlier. And, yeah, I just, I really feel for her. Like, I feel like it's palpable to see that she's dealing with this alone.

And, and, like, Tammy, Tammy was actually on my podcast, The Bituation Room a while ago before this. And she's the most lovely person. Like, she's so wonderful and just, like, warm and thoughtful and fierce. And you can, and clearly it comes across. But it is just funny that, like, yeah, the Confederacy has been reduced to a sad man. on a random Tuesday with nothing to do with a tiny little flag and his little, you know, his AirPods listening to whatever the fuck he's listening to waving his flag behind a woman in doing a press conference.

Like Robert Ely would be so proud of you, sir. Oh, God. Like, keep the flame alive, you idiot. Like, you want to lose again the fuck. You fucking lost the Civil War, bitch. Like, I'm sorry. I'm just like, you can't get over the fact that you goddamn lost. and you want a stupid monument to your loser-ass, you know, civil war hero?

Shut the fuck up. Fun fact, the show The Golden Girls lasted longer than the Confederacy, so maybe we should have monuments to that, you know? Yes, we should. Sophia deserves her own monument. I, as an Italian woman, believe Sophia is our queen. No, yeah, that is, it's just so sad. It is.

And so after this interaction, Sawyer filed charges against him. and said that, you know, he threatened her. During the investigation, it is revealed that that same man, after she filed those charges, went on Facebook Live and read her address out loud. Here's a little bit about how she explains what went down after the incident we just heard. Because he went on Facebook Live with a friend and offered out my address and actually emailed out my address to people telling them to send me cotton and other gifts and show me who was in charge in this country and, you know, threatening that after January 24th,

after court, that Memphis and me were going to face a reckoning. Because of those actions that came to light this weekend, the judge was forced to allow the case to continue. But the judge is also from Dyer County, and he did not want the case to continue. And he lectured Mr. Johnson and told him, you have a great. lawyer. You know, why did you open your mouth? You know, don't ruin a good thing. He told him, son, don't ruin a good thing. And so I already see where this is going. Wow, that is incredible that that was what was discussed. And so, so what, nothing left for you here? I was in court.

And when I attempted to speak, the judge told me that I don't address him. I could talk to the DA. This is the same DA that never called me, interviewed me. And actually today, when the case was continued to be set for trial in March, said I'll now have to look at this case. I have to be honest. I hadn't looked at it because I just knew it was going to be dismissed. So this is a six-month-old situation that went viral that was covered on your show and many others. And the DA is telling me he's never looked at the file. And now he's going to have to look at it.

There's still a motion to dismiss from the defense that will be heard on March 31st. So, yeah, you can sort of get a sense. that like, it doesn't sound like anybody whose job it is to give a shit gives a shit. She's an elected official. I believe she's still currently the commissioner, Shelby County Commissioner. No, she was at that point, but no long, she's not like today. Right. Yeah, so at that point, she was still an elected official.

And this is how they were treating a pretty clear, like, problem, you know? And also keep in mind, she was a county commissioner, right? It's not like she had a well-funded security detail or like endless funds to dedicate to the kinds of like security that someone would need in a situation like this. You know, after this man made a show of having her address and a clear intent to cause her harm. And so Tammy had to fundraise for her own security. I should say full disclosure, I do work for a organization that did help her fundraise for her security details. So like I should add that. It only makes us like you more, Bridget.

Okay, good. I don't want someone to like find that and be like, wait a minute, conflict of interest. I mean, and I love Tammy and I admire her work so much and like, you know, it is what it is. Like I can't believe you would cover this story. That is, wow. I mean, it's like, you know, we saw what happened and it just felt like nobody had her back, right? Like she shouldn't have to, it shouldn't be this barrier and this cost that just she alone has to show. shoulder. It's not like county commissioner is this like lucrative, cushy thing. Like,

she shouldn't have to just like shell out to have to have security because some Confederate maniac has a B&ISB on it. Like I thought it was completely acceptable. Yes. And it's indicative of the fact that most people who run for elected office and who get elected are themselves wealthy. And they're usually white dudes. And they have generational wealth or they're independently wealthy, whatever the case may be. And, and they're, And they can afford a security detail. But again, as you've discussed and laid out, mostly when you are a white man in office, you do not face those kinds of threats the way women and women of color do.

And it goes from, I mean, from Tammy to AOC on, you know, on a federal level, I guess, or in Congress, you know, AOC saying, we need security. And this is after January 6th, right? This is like, we need better security in and around the capital. and it seems like that's only reserved for people who, like the speaker, or people who just privately funded themselves. And who's got the money for that? I mean, this is ostensibly, these should be public servants,

and this is the mint, just the least we could do for them. Exactly. And if we're saying we want to have a representative democracy where lots of different folks from lots of different backgrounds can be public servants, that should include people who, I'm sorry, can't afford. toward a private security detail. It shouldn't this be for wealthy people? And I feel like we are creating a situation

where the only people who can reasonably and safely hold public office are people who have independent wealth to pay the astronomical costs that are involved with security and online and offline security. And so I think it's a real problem. And, you know, I should say, like,

with the Tammy Sawyer situation, the charges were eventually dropped against the person who was harassing her. You know, it sounds like Tammy felt like this case was not handled seriously. Right. She talks about how the judge was like really paling it up with the defendant, who she says was harassing her.

And when the judge was like, oh, you know, why did the don't go on Facebook live? It wasn't because he wanted Tammy to feel safe. It was because he didn't want that guy to make his case that much harder to have him be dismissed. And so when the charges were dismissed, Tammy wrote on Facebook, she said that even though the judge called his actions pathetic, he could not identify a reasonable level of fear on her part. And so I would actually argue that that like weird, I know, it's so fucked up. And like, I think that weird vibe, that tightrope of like, I have to show public grace kind of creates this impossible situation where it's like, oh, well, you can handle it.

Like, you're a black woman. It's as like part of showing up and being a visible black woman. You're not afraid, whatever, whatever. And I think that's part of it. It's this impossible situation that we face. You're used to it. No, imagine if she had freaked out in that video. Imagine if she'd gotten angry, right?

It would have been used against her. The homie would have, that other dude, the dude would have used it to file charges against her, right? And you know that would have flown. And this judge would have loved that. He would have loved that. He was just waiting for her to go off on him. And she didn't. She had to keep her cool, which is asked of marginalized people all the time.

because when you raise your voice, somehow that is a threat. But yeah, I think the other thing I was going to say and this is a terrible comparison, but when it comes to the justice system, it's just right there for the taking. Like, you know that rape victims

their cases are not taken seriously often if they don't quote unquote fight back. Right? So, and in this case, oh, she wasn't afraid. She wasn't afraid because she didn't raise her voice or she didn't run. She wasn't physically running at the time.

So therefore there was no fear. Like, what are you talking about? This is all about surviving. And it just, I mean, you bring up such a good point about the ways that we really just failed survivors and made survivors walk a really impossible tightrope in public. And it's just really fucked up. And, yeah, it makes me very sad. And today, Tammy Sawyer is no longer in public office. she is pursuing a PhD, and don't get me wrong, like, she is still doing great things.

Like, we will hear her, I am so sure we're going to hear her name again, like, just because she's no longer in public office, I don't think this is like the end of her, the end of her road by any margin. But I do think that we should acknowledge this, like, added burden that she was forced to carry because of her identity, you know, pursuing charges against somebody who gave out her address and encouraged people to harass her. And it's like, we, rather than taking the time to really reflect on that or acknowledge that, we just move on. We're just like, oh, yeah, like it just feels like a footnote as opposed to something that is a real marker of our democracy and how unwell our democratic system is right now. It's also, it reminds me of like,

she was working with Black Voters Matter when I had her on. So she also has done incredible activism. And you're totally right. We'll continue to do so. It reminds me of like women in comedy, you know, where it's like a lot of male bookers will be like, like, well, look, I would put more women on my show, but, like, they're not any good women. I don't know any female comics. It's like, number one, you're blind, and there are tons of amazing women, female comics. But also, it's like, yeah, look at the industry writ large. Like, look at the culture of comedy in a lot of ways. We don't have HR. There's not, it's like a not a safe space specifically for women and for women of color. The comedy space just isn't, you know, right?

And it's the same thing with elected office. You're just like, well, you know, we love to have like some kind of quota or have like more women in office, but just they don't run. And I think Republicans are so guilty of that too, you know, because it's like they have what, like three female senators? It's like the lowest in internationally, I think the U.S. Congress is one of the least representative bodies when it comes to gender. And so, and like, and it's just like, well, we'd support them if they would run for office. No, they run for office. They just get torn down. I mean, I'm also thinking of someone like Katie Hill in California, right?

Like, they get torn the fuck apart. So, yeah. Yeah, and it's funny that you, I mean, not funny, but what Katie Hill went through was a sex crime. Like, she was the victim of a sex crime by an ex-romantic partner who was like, be, like, harassing her. And yet, it's like, we just allow, we just have a really fucked up culture

when it comes to women. I guess I'll just say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All I can really say. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

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Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin and rising hockey star, Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't.

Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs, Gabby Thomas, and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile,

that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win. more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can, like, I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. So I want to talk about one more elected official and her experience in public office, Kea Morris.

She made history in 2014 as Vermont's only black woman lawmaker. Her husband, James, grew up in Bennington, Vermont, and she went to college in Chicago, but relocated back to Vermont to become a lawmaker. Her career was very short-lived because it was completely derailed by online harassment and violent threats by self-proclaimed white nationalist Max Mish. Mish was kind of known as like a violent... His name is Max Mish? Max Mish.

Max Mish. Dude, white nationalists have the dumbest names. They really do. They really do. Match-mish. Mish. I don't know. I'm just like, that is the stupid.

Anyway, sorry. It's like a Mickey Mouse name. That's a made-up name. It's so stupid. So he's kind of like no, like a known violent asshole. Side note, he looks exactly like whatever you're thinking that he looks like based on the behavior I'm not to describe. I can tell you that you're right.

Whatever you're thinking, yes, that's what he looks like. Very red-faced. Super red face. You got it. You got it. So Mish, he pled guilty to both first-degree aggravated domestic assault and disorderly conduct as a hate crime. So he has this like, he doesn't have a great, like, he's like a known shithead, I guess. So he's been through a lot, is what you're saying.

Yes, he's just a real victim, you know. And so Kia, when she supports a gun safety bill, she starts to experience animosity from gun rights advocates in Vermont because of her support of this legislation. Now, many legislators and the governor were targeted with, like, angry, male and messages over this law. But the kind of content that she gets is very different because she's a black woman and the only black woman in the legislature.

So, you know, she's not just getting like, oh, we didn't like that you support this bill. she's getting frightening, horrific, racist messages, particularly from Max Mish. Max starts sending her these, like, racist memes on Twitter and elsewhere about her support for the bill. Kia says that she gets an uptick in the intensity of this kind of harassment after a columnist for the white supremacist website, the InfoStormer, posts about her reelection and starts tagging, like, residents in it. The Info Stormer. Sorry, I had to give that a moment. I know. I feel like it's like.

We storm the truth. They're like putting a bunch of words into like an AI generator or something. And it's like InfoStormer, that's going to be it. Like you mean Daily Stormer? No, we're like a breakaway of the daily stormer. Who even is that? Exactly. Infoformer.

It's so ridiculous. And so in a 10-page report published by the Vermont Attorney General's Office, it outlines almost 50 instances of threatening behavior where her or her or her family or her neighbors called the police. And so first, it's like... In Vermont? In Vermont. You guys.

And it's funny because you think of Vermont as like a progressive state, but, you know, it's like this shit happens, you know? Mm-hmm. It's not just Bernie building a fire endlessly and the coat factory. Or like wearing mittens. Exactly. It's Vermont. It's more than mittens.

That should be their slogan. Yeah. that's I mean that's what max Mish wants like they these guys must be so mad that Bernie like put them on the map as like The governor of Vermont is a Republican Yeah it's one of those states right

It's one of those sort of like It's kind of a Max Mish state You know it's a Mish Mish It's a Mish state It's a Max Mish of ideology Their governor's I think he's his Phil Scott And he's like this is like his fourth time

Right and it was the one issue that Sanders like Clinton was to the left of Sanders on because there's so many gun enthusiasts in Vermont. Yeah. And Sanders was, I mean, I think now that's like, I mean, how many mass shootings has there been since 2016, right? So even now, I don't think he can hold that line. But it's been the sort of one gray area where he was like had to appease the gun folks in his state. Yeah, I get, I mean, like, honestly, researching this episode, I get it.

I was like, oh, I don't think I realized how fervent gun ideology is. I live in D.C., so, like, there's gun crimes here, but, like, individuals don't have the same kind of connection to it. And when I was researching this episode, I was like, oh, wow, like, I forget how different it is in different states that, like, it's a real issue. Right. It's, they're all arming up for the imagined crime, whereas, like, D.C. actually has a little bit of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the kinds of messages that she's getting from Max Mish are just racist, garland. You know, go back to Africa, so the only place that you'll be safe, that kind of thing, right?

And so in August of 2016, she files a complaint with the FBI where she says that this guy and his associates are harassing her on Twitter. But as online harassment often works, it doesn't just stay online. It bleeds from Twitter and Facebook into her offline life. On Election Day, she's doing a campaign event at a polling place, and she sees this guy, Max, there staring at her and weirding her out. Then somebody breaks into her home. they stole about a hundred of her husband's neckties and littered them across a cemetery in her home which is very weird.

It's like a very weird thing. So can you imagine them getting together and be like, so what should we do? You know, should we like, should we put like a horse in her bed like in, you know, Godfather? No, no, no, no, no. I saw this one thing on like the Lifetime channel.

We're going to do the neckties. The necktie thing. Pete, I don't know if we should do the neckties. No, trust me. We're going to do the necktie thing. it'll be, it'll be crazy. We just put a little necktie on every single gravestone. It's such a weird, specific, like, way to fuck with somebody.

Yes, so bizarre. You know, it's like a, it's like a snowman, but of headstones. And you put in, you know, we're going to get the corncob pipe and the carrot nose and then one of their neckties. It'll freak her out. I mean, probably mission accomplished. Yeah, she was completely freaked out. Also, her home was vandalized with paintballs. But then we're going to bake her a pie.

So one hot piping apple pie. Yeah, a lot of mixed signals from these are answers. Yes, yes. A house nearby that has a ton of her campaign paraphernalia on their windows gets a racist mailer shoved under the door. And then her babysitter reports that a man in a car outside of her home is recording their house. So just like, just like, weird skin. Like weird scary shit that maybe does not, like I kind of see whoever is doing this. It kind of seems like they're trying to operate on like a level of like it's enough to freak you out but not enough to be like, you know, the kind of crime that the police would take seriously.

Like I feel like they're really walking a line of like it has to be scary but not scary enough that like somebody in power would take this seriously. But that's sort of the tricky thing with harassment generally, right? And with like crimes, whether they be, I mean especially sexual crimes. Like is that gray area? And it's the sort of, you know, I know it's overused, but that microaggression, but this is obviously much more than that. Like the micro, the stalking, right? The harassing and harassment. It's like, well, did he enter with a gun?

Did it? Like, no, buddy, there's a car outside. Someone's filming me. And it's just like, and of course, cops, not the most empathetic, not the best at dealing with some of these. The warning signs, which, by the way, is really. just, hey, do you have a history of DV? Yeah. Then you should have someone tailing you at all times because likely you're going to do some other shit to somebody else. And you probably shouldn't have a gun. And you definitely shouldn't have a gun. Like just some common sense like,

yeah, if you've been threatening your domestic partner, maybe let's not get a gun in the mix. Like just, you know, so the police, it sounds like don't really do anything. Like they don't, when they, when somebody breaks into her house, they don't like take finger. fingerprints or whatever. She gets a restraining order against him, but it only lasts for one year. After the restraining order expires, Max Mish, contacts her again on social media, writing on Twitter, you will never silence me. Every time you attend a political rally at the four corners or another local venue and I'm aware of the event, I will troll the hell out of you and other subversives there. Maybe I'll bring a friend or three with me to stop pushing social justice

on your nearly entirely white constituency in Bennington, Vermont. Go back to Chicago if you want to engage in social justice warrior bullshit, we will continue to fight against you and your efforts to make our town and state look more like your mongrel son. Ooh. They're pretty fucked up. Like, not good. And so I understand why she was like terrified and unnerved. But unfortunately, the attorney general declines to press charges against this guy,

explaining that in this case, the online communications that were sent to Ms. Morris by Max Mish and others were clearly racist and offensive. However, the First Amendment does not make speech. sanctionable merely because it is objectionable. The question here is whether the messages and contexts were communicating a serious expression of intent to harm Ms. Morris or her family. Yeah. It sounds like.

Yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Yes. Yes. Yes. The fact that a number of the messages were directed at her in her role as an elected official raises the issue of whether they were intended to express political opposition through the use of hyperbole and insult as noted in the case above. Therefore, there appears to be insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges.

under Vermont law. Oh, that's such bullshit. I mean, that's such bullshit. Because that's, that's basically like, well, it's open season. You know, and here we are in a moment where it's like, oh my God, someone protested outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home. Like, how dare you? You know what, we really need to beef up security on white men in power. Like, or the Supreme Court is just being targeted. Like, no, these are the stories that happen all the time on a local level. People have been harassed for decades and we don't hear it. Gabby Gifford's got to get shot in the head and we still don't have security details for elected officials. I mean, it's just how many more instances do you need? And it was so perfect. It's like, oh, okay, we know who we choose to protect. We know when people

raise the alarm. It's when fucking Ted Cruz gets trolled a Yankees game. And then it's like, oh my God. Yeah. And it creates this like really obviously false frustrating both sides, narrative. of like, oh, they both sides do it. And it's like, well, someone running in chalk outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home is different than, like, breaking in the Nancy Pelosi's home and hitting her husband on the head with a hammer. It's like, those are not analogous.

So, like, let's not pretend that they are. Like, I hate this vibe of, like, I think that political violence and threats against elected officials is like a, should be a nonpartisan issue. But I hate this on this vibe that, like, we have to be completely disingenuous about which side is doing it

in a way that it's like much more fucking and scary. Yes. So case closed. They're not going to press any charges against this guy. There's a press conference where the DA is announcing that he does not intend to press charges against Max Mish. After the DA speaks about freedom of speech, Kia gets up to the podium to speak. And guess who comes in? Max Mish. He's wearing a Pepe the Frog shirt. And you can hear everyone's reaction when he enters. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. it makes miss this entered in the press conference why is this allowed why is he now allowed I guess

and we have to listen to everybody but we don't have to put up with him I have some question to make if you realize what he's done all these cries is not acceptable in many so we're here at one side of the store I want to say something too please So I'm happy to take other questions. Other than that, Alex, federal civil rights violations that could be pursued. We don't believe so. The U.S. Attorney. So we, this is not saying.

With that, with that, I'm going to conclude the press conference, unless there are other questions. I'd like to say this is the question. As a political opponent who was accused of being a Nazi myself, myself, I think we're hearing one side of the story. Oh, my God. So this is failed lawmaker Kevin Hoyt. Kai is politics, and I was called the Nazi.

I was called the white supremacist. You probably are, my guy. Obviously, racism exists in Vermont state. It's like hate, right? It's like all these things that it's crazy. We don't want these things, but they're part of our fabric of society. I question to what degree, though. I call bullshit on Ms. Morris.

I think I'm a criminal. Okay, so you kind of get the idea. Wow. Also, FYI, Kevin Hoyt is like, if folks are interested, he's his own, like, weird guy who folks, you can look at them up if you're interested. But it's so funny that he's like, I was also unfairly called a Nazi, and I think we should let him speak. It is just wild, right? Like, complete pandemonium, onlookers use their jackets to try to block Mish. It's this big dramatic scene, but not to Max Mish to him.

It is all a big joke. free press, I am a troll. I like it. I like this. Like, it's just funny to him. And so I would have to play a little clip of him responding to the free press. Because I can. Yes, you can. Absolutely. But that's why we were holding up our coats so that people of color don't have to see that hate and we're surrounding you and we don't like it. It's vile. It's vile. Yes, you have the right to put the shirt on, but I have the right to tell you that it's hateful, it's cruel, and it's vile. I see.

I mean, you can cry about all you want. I don't can't. I'm not crying. I'm pissed. It's Max. Are you intentionally being provocative? That's what you want. Yes.

Why are you being provocative? I like trolling people. It's fun. God, I'm so over that concept. And look how much attention he's getting for doing it. So he's clearly, he's clearly, just someone who likes to like like this is a joke to him

I don't think that he's any of this is serious to him I think it's just a joke Oh my god if mommy issues The fucking Pepe shirt I'm like Ugh Just like mom issues in a person You know like um it's because I want attention Because I didn't get enough as a child

And no one will play with me And one time they ditched me in the sandbox For like the volleyball court And I didn't know how to play volleyball And uh you know it's just like it's like Oh my God go to therapy bro go to therapy people like again what is it what will it take and i think that's the woman who's like yes i have the right to also you know stand in front of you and call you hateful

she was excellent and then she points out that the media is going to the provocateur and saying which is just a really funny statement i mean i don't no disrespect to local news but like or the free press but like it is very funny to be like are you being intentionally provocative. Like, yeah. Like, what is the other answer to that? No, in my heart of hearts, I do believe that white people are a superior race. Like, huh, interesting. Expound on that. You know, like, what's the other answer? Yes, he's being provocative on purpose. Does it has to do with his fucked up ideology? Doesn't even matter. Yeah, and asking him about that with a camera, with a bunch of camera crews in his face, like, sir, are you intentionally being provocative? Are we,

It's like you're providing, the answer is clearly yes, and you are providing him the exact thing that a provocateur wants. A platform. Yeah. And this is, and I think it's important to remember, I believe 2014 or maybe 15, but kind of when the media was lending a platform to people like Richard Spencer, people like these sort of, you know, Nazis in suits or sort of, you know, and on the cusp of the election of Donald Trump, effectively saying, maybe we need to listen to Nazis a little bit more. And now that they've made their message a little more cuth and digestible, you know, hey, they're not hateful. They just believe we should live in separate communities for people of color and white people. There's nothing hateful about that. I mean, just the mind trick that I think white nationalists pulled on the media,

and the media in turn pulled on us, we're seeing that in a microcosm in this example that you brought up. Yeah, it. infuriates me. And I will never forget this. There's a, there's a, and I like the publication for the most part, but like there's a Mother Jones piece where it's like, oh, the dapper white supremacists walking through town, like, that I feel like it's like burned into my memory of like, what are we doing? What are we normalizing? What are we glamorizing? What are we giving a platform? And the thing that fucks with me is, I worry that we learned nothing. I worry that when I look at like how

the media is covering somebody like Ronda Santos, for instance, I worry that we have learned nothing. The media has learned nothing about what kind of hateful bullshit ideology they will amplify and normalize despite the fact that he's like criminalizing trans youth and shit and like putting, you know, putting immigrants on buses and shit. Like rewriting history books. It infuriates me. The way that this kind of like horse race kind of political. coverage is going. I see us poised to do the same thing again where I see these memes about like

Rhonda Santis is tall or like things like that where I'm like, yeah, he's also like a hate monger. Can we talk about that? Right. They're just so desperate to move on from Trump even though they're not. I think there's just this, I mean, that's like our political system is such, especially the, and the media's like following of the political system is so reliant on the idea that there are two rational actors. Obviously, we have all of two parts. parties in this country. Yay. And they're both rational and they're both great and we can level with them. And, you know, it's a balance of powers. And it's like, no, it's not. It's bullshit. One side doesn't believe in a balance of powers. They believe in authoritarianism. But yeah,

you're absolutely right. I'm, because it is exactly that. Ronda Santis is the buttoned up Donald Trump. And Richard Spencer is the buttoned up David Duke. Right. And so as long as he's not openly saying he's a member of the KKK, it's all good. And we'll, even though people Hiled Hitler in his little, you know, like hotel speech when Trump won, that's fine because he's in a suit and he's got a nice haircut. Yeah. God, I want us to be better. We deserve a better, we deserve better media that can, like, tell a better version of these stories that isn't so harmful. Like, I'm exhausted because I know we're not going to get it. Yeah. And also, there's enough on the Democratic side. Like, there's enough

we got a lot of, like, conservative Dems. There's tons of drama on this side. Talk about those folks, but anyway, I digress. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and

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world. Like, I can do anything. I can, like, I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. So while all of this was happening to Kia, her husband James was in very poor health and he had to have open heart surgery. So I know, like, this should have to be stressful for her. And so perhaps not surprisingly, 10 days after she won the Democratic nomination for a third term as state representative, she announced that she was dropping her campaign and packed up and left town shortly thereafter for her family's safety. She, this is really sad.

Like, she talks about how her son, who at the time was seven, saw the threats that she got, like saw them and like understood them and had questions about them and was so scared that he tried to build a panic room in their home out of his closet. And so like, it is scary and sad. And after she left town, Mish was quoted as saying, I won. I did it. So yeah, just a real piece of shit. Good for you, asshole.

I hope it's given. You know, he's still unhappy. Isn't that crazy? I think he's still unhappy. It's still insufferable, that's for sure. This is the threat of equality. This is what, I mean, I love it. Like, you want social justice.

Like, what are you talking about? This is a predominantly white state, a predominantly white electorate, a predominantly white, you know, whatever, state body. Like, in no way is she trying, again, by her mere existence, her mere existence and the threat, the supposed threat of one day there could be equality. One day there could be two Kia Morris's. Oh my God.

Like all of two black women in their legislature? Yep. And then it'll be all over. I mean, we'll still have the power white dudes, but it'll feel like we don't because someone's going to quote Audrey Lord to us. Or what? Or like someone's going to like want to create a program for black youth in our state. Like, Christ.

So this story does not end there because if you're thinking, wow, it sounds like officials didn't do a great job of taking the situation seriously or investigating it. You would be right. After Kia left office, she filed a complaint with Vermont's Human Rights Commission in 2019 alleging discrimination by the police department and the town of Bennington. An investigation found that the Bennington Police Chief failed to disclose relative information about her harasser to her, including his possession of high-capacity firearms and details of an interview that they did with his ex-wife, where she expressed concern for Kia's

safety. The investigator recommended that the commission find reasonable grounds that the town of Beddington discriminated against her on the basis of race and color, and the town had to publicly apologize and agreed to pay her $137,000. So, yeah, they didn't properly investigate it. They withheld information that, frankly, she should have been informed of. And they just, like, didn't take it seriously. And when online threats and online abuse are not taken seriously by people with power, dangerous things can happen. It can get really, really scary.

And honestly, like, I am grateful that she, it didn't come to, like, actual physical violence. That, like, you know, it didn't wind up like that. But it so easily could have. Oh, obviously. And it's like, and, I mean, essentially she was paid to kind of go away. You know? Yeah. Yeah, there's a settlement. I would argue it's very low. But it's just like, well, that's the cost of doing business and attempting to be a black woman in the state legislature. Like, or in leadership. Bye. Like, anyway, sorry. It's, and I think it's also interesting because you see, again, there's like, it's a white people problem. Like, I'm reminded of W. Camel Bell's like, you know, come get your boy when it comes to Trump. And it. It's in terms of what happened to Kia. It's like it's not a Kia problem.

It's a everybody else problem. And you see like, you know, some of the white, you know, officials or police officers, folks around. And I think it's like, you know, you guys are the ones who have a lot of work to do. It's a you all problem. It's not a Kia problem. So how is this systemic? And, yeah. And also, when are we going to get to the idea that once everyone is liberated, once there is equality, that will

mean, or once the most marginalized are liberated, it will mean liberty and equality and freedom for everybody. Sorry, I've got to practice that part before I run for president. Yeah, I mean, I would vote for you tomorrow. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks. Hell yeah. So these stories are obviously heartbreaking, but I also think they show the true cost of, to all of us, of what happens when things like online harassment and abuse just go unchecked. And we know this. this kind of harassment keeps marginalized people from running for office. You know, I'm sad to say that I think a lot of people will hear about the experiences of women like this, and they'll be like, oh, well, that is just the cost of being a public figure deal with it.

But we deserve a political landscape where, like, this is not just the cost of wanting to serve your community, especially when that cost is so much higher for the most marginalized among us. Absolutely. I mean, I think that, I think with the latest midterms of the fact that, like, young people came out in droves and that you had the squad growing with a lot of young folks and specifically young people of color we will stop normalizing this kind of crap and because there will be just more of it

because there will be more women in office there will be more people of color in office which is a good thing but then this is the crap that comes along with it and so it's like not to mention the fact that younger generations are God I mean from middle school dealing with online harassment from peers from randos

like it's just gone or the days of random AOL chats and me logging in being like, I am blonde sexy lady. Hello. Sorry. I'm just talking about how I was on the internet as a kid. That's how I was too. I was like,

yes, that's how I was too. Right, right. And you're like, now it's like, oh no, there's consequences and everyone's using their real name and like people are stalking you and what, what? Not that that wasn't happening then. But so I feel like, especially since young folks are also more internet savvy and online harassment savvy and experience it.

We will arrive at a point, Bridget, and you will be vindicated in all of your work in this show and everything that you've been sounding the alarm on, I know we will be vindicated, but it's just going to take a while. It's going to give us like a decade, which is too long, but I feel like we will arrive in another point where this shit is just not as normalized. Yeah, I actually agree with you. I think that, like, you know, we've seen historic numbers of young folks, women, people of color running for office in this last cycle. And I just think that we are different. I don't think that we're going to tolerate this.

And I think that we are going to hold people with power, whether it's legislators or policymakers or tech leaders. We're going to force them to, you know, do what they can to create a situation where this isn't the norm. because this is not a functional democracy. This is not a healthy democracy when this is how the political landscape and the media landscape that people are trying to compete it. It's just not healthy. It's not a functional democracy.

And I think young people are smart enough to see that. Totally. And our Senate and our Congress are old. I mean, you guys remember, you remember when Zuckerberg testified like a few years ago, and it's like you got senators being like, I'm Mr. Zuckerberg, what is? the five stand for in Wi-Fi?

Because I think Y is wireless. Well, what is the five? You know, just like, you're like, and Mrs. Zuckerberg, could I, what is my password to my Amazon account? Like, the most Luddite-ass Senate, right? And that's going to change. And I think when that change, as we slowly change it, yes, we will hopefully have more protections.

Yeah, it's so frustrating. watch those hearings where it's like the people who are in charge of making our policies around technology. Like I forget who what lawmaker it was, but was like, will you commit to ending CINSTA? And what is the fuck are you talking? Like, what are you saying, sir? Like, what are you saying? And these are the people like, I mean, it also, it also starts with getting like more young people in office because like we just, I mean. Yeah. I was just going to say, and surrounding them too, you know. Like, like, uh, supporting. Like, get an aid. You know. You know, ask the staffers.

10% of Senate is made up of men named John. That's like a real thing. Like, spelled two different ways, but 10% of Senate are John. Yeah. It's a solid name when you're born in 1929. Yeah, when you're a white guy who watched the moon landing, yeah. You know, that's... And so, you know, when it comes to these kinds of attacks and harassment that we're seeing,

Something I think is really interesting in telling is that it seems like the goal of these attacks is to really destroy marginalized candidates their resolve and to get them to internalize this abuse that is directed at them. This is from the folks who did the study at the center for democracy and technology that these candidates felt very strongly. The point of this kind of harassment was to just get them to internalize and accept the oppression that they face as women of color and just drop out. of politics. And so you see that that has an incredibly like silencing effect, you know, and unfortunately,

and the research bears this out that these kinds of threats do keep women from running for office or just sort of engaging in public life in general or civic life because they're smart enough to see the way that other women are treated. They see the way that law enforcement and media really do nothing or make it worse. And they're like, no fucking thanks. I don't want to deal with it. You know, just this afternoon, Nancy Pelosi announced that she's ending her career in politics on the heels of that horrific hammer attack against her husband, who not only was attacked, after being attacked, elected officials on political figures like and Elon Musk spread homophobic conspiracy theories about the attack, joked about it. And part of me, it's like, I can

understand why she's just like, I'm out, you know? When a woman runs for office or is a public figure and she is attacked, it is never just her. It is her partner. It is her kids. It is her parents. It is her community. And I can understand why women are just like, Like, you know, the cost is just too high. I don't want to put myself or my family at risk to run for public office. And so I'm not going to do it or I'm going to check out of it. I can understand that. And so I think if women can't run for public office safely, then we will never have a truly

representative democracy or a functional democracy in general. You know, the author of that report said a lack of representation means that we lose the important insights and solutions to public policy problems that women of color will bring. we will all suffer if everyone does not have a seat at the table. And I could not agree more. Like, it is not just about the women who are attacked and targeted. All of us lose out when we don't even have a shot at a landscape where people can safely serve their public through running for office. Absolutely.

I mean, look, I'm not the biggest fan of Pelosi, but I do respect the hell out of her. And what I will say with people like her and also people like Clinton, I wish they would do what Monica Lewinsky has done. And I think that's part and parcel, the fact that Monica Lewinsky is a little younger. But like taking her the public, the scrutiny, the harassment, what she was put through, and using it to actually try and change the culture. And I think that Hillary and Nancy Pelosi come from more of a generation that's like you got to like go, you know, basically shut up and get along. And like whatever it is, like get along to go along. I'm really terrible with any kind of idioms today. but you guys know what I mean.

Like, we, right. And it's like, it's like, no, I don't think, I think we're done with that. And I think that young women and all people are done with the like, no, you have to shut up in order to appease these systems and halls of power. It's like, no, you don't. And so I hope that Nancy Pelosi in her, because she's not going to rest. This woman's never going to rest until she's dead. Like, she's going to keep on working. And I hope she uses, you know, her time to try and not cut the.

ladder from out underneath her, but help young women also accelerate and succeed in politics as well. She hasn't got a great track record with that, going to be real. She jumped on a little bit of the anti-squad, anti-Illhan Omar, you know, calling Ilhan Omar anti-Semitic when she totally was not being anti-Semitic. So, Nancy, you know, I hope you do better. Thank you for your service. I agree with you. Like Monica Lewinsky is she's my white whale podcast guest because I think the way that she has turned something that was like meant to silence her and belittle her. She turned it into a platform and she really changed the conversation about online shaming and online harassment and online bullying. And I respect the hell out of it.

Monica, if you're listening, please call me. You're my white whale guest. She did that TED talk about the price of shame. That's right. And she has a really good documentary called 15 Minutes of Shame. on HBO Max, which everyone should watch all about online shaming. But yeah, I agree. I hope that this becomes a kind of situation where women are not expected to suffer in silence and have a kind of like poised face because, you know, it doesn't serve anybody. And it's funny because in an interview

I listened to with Kia, she was asked, she said that so many people were like, you should just ignore this. You shouldn't stoop to their level. You should just ignore it. And I'm so glad that she didn't ignore it because it started a conversation about what is and is not acceptable in discourse. And, you know, if you ignore it, it just festers and gets more empowered. And so the advice of just saying like, oh, rise above, you know, go high, don't go low, ignore it. You're too good to respond. I don't think that advice is really serving anybody, particularly if you're marginalized or you're like a young person who's coming up on this like online next generation. Yes, absolutely. And I think it's why a lot of people who are harassed incessantly often post those DMs or that harassment or the, you know, air the voicemails that, you know, people like A.O.C. or Honomar got. Or Primalajapal, who I believe was threatened as well. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, more folks need to understand this is a daily occurrence before we actually like take it seriously. And whether or not Pepe La Max Mish,

understands it. I mean, he's not getting paid by anybody, but he's absolutely part and parcel of this system designed to like, yeah, keep women and people of color out of any kind of decision-making process over their lives. Exactly. And I'm so glad that you put it that way, because this was my whole intention behind this podcast, is that it's so easy to think that when someone is being targeted in this way, it's individual. And certainly it has individual impacts, of course, but it's also institutional. It's also systems. It's also, you know, power structures that enable it or, you know, amplify it or profit off of it, right? And so we need to start picking apart and calling out all of the systems that make this kind of harassment a viable thing for people

to do and break those systems and say, we're not going to tolerate this. If you want to engage in this kind of discourse, we're not going to amplify it, we're not going to incentivize it. You're not going to be able to build a platform off of it, and it's not going to be effective. You're going to pay $200 for that DM. Yes. Honestly, I would accept some like harassing DMs if I got $200 every time it happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to give me $500. But yeah, say whatever you want to need to say to me.

SJW, cool, whatever. Cutching. Exactly. It's like a cameo, but for hate. Yes. Ooh, you need to like pitch this to some venture capitalist, Fran. But that's the whole thing. The irony is exactly what you're saying.

which is these platforms already pay for, they get that stuff for free. They're the ones making money off of the hate. It's going into their pocket. And it's like, I would say, I mean, like, I would argue that marginalized people, we are absorbing the hate to make tech leaders more money. And we need to break that system.

It's the externality of capitalism. And that's the thing. What if Google was like, listen, Bridget, if you get trolled, I'll give you $200 every time. like every hateful tweet. That I might, I'd be like, that's, that'd be a good solution. And it would certainly incentivize them to, you know, fix the problem, which is all we're asking

for. And I guess this is my like overall point, you know, we, especially in the Democratic Party, we love our slogans like, support black women, yes, trust black women. Like, I have a trust black women shirt. And I am all on board for, like, championing the leadership of black women. But we can't just say, you know, support black women. not also being honest about the unfair, racist, sexist, attacks and harassment that they will probably face when they get into these leadership roles that we, like, are vocally supporting them for. And so we need to be creating the conditions so that those women that we love to champion also have a chance at an equal playing field, that we're not just setting them up to be knocked down to have to, like, you know, abandon their office and leave town because of harassment and threats and garbage.

Amen. And we didn't even talk about Katanji Brown Jackson, but my mind went to her as well. Yes. Coming soon. Coming soon. Oh, yay. Okay. Great example. Coming soon. Good, good, good. Awesome. That is all I have, Fran. There is like no one else that I would rather have dug into all this with than you. And I appreciate you taking the time after you've, you know, had so much going on. So much going on. Babies probably. It's been two hours. Time to feed. yet again. I'm going to go soak my aching nipples, guys. That's as you show. TMI deal with it.

We need to support women much more. But yeah, Bridget, this has been awesome. And, I mean, awful, but also, like, people like you're like, oh, yeah, there's hope. There is hope. You make me feel very hopeful. And where can folks follow you and what you're up to? Yeah, dude, follow me on all things at Franny Fio.

F-R-A-N-I-F-I-O, and then the Bituation Room is a podcast. It's also a live stream every Tuesday, 1 p.m. Pacific, 4 p.m. Eastern on YouTube and Twitch. Yay. Internet hate machine is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Coolzone Media, check out our website, coolzonemedia.com, or find us on the I-HeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy,

Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app,

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