There Are No Girls on the Internet - Preserving our Voices with Jocelyn Robinson

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

It’s a shame to think about audio of some of the most influential civil rights leaders collecting dust in a basement somewhere. Preservationist and audio producer Jocelyn Robinson has made preserving the audio archives at HBCUs her mission. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises. of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was finally. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that game seven, Mark keep coming to, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are no girls on the internet will be back with the new season soon. But until then, and in honor of homecoming, enjoy this special mini-celebration of women using technology to make change on the campuses of historically black colleges. We'll be back for our regular season soon. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. The Internet is ephemeral.

How can you archive something that happened on social media? Or something that existed completely online? That's actually one of the reasons why I created this very podcast. I saw all the ways that underrepresented communities contribute to the internet and technology, but I saw those same contributions being overlooked or forgotten. I didn't want them to fade away. Audio was a bit like that too.

Tape fades, hard drives crash, and pieces get lost forever. In the age of searching text, audio is that much harder to hold on to. But there's something magical about the medium of audio. Hearing someone tell their stories in their own words just hits differently. That's why it's so important that we be intentional about whose voices we preserve. Jocelyn Robinson is an audio producer and preservationist, and she has long-standing roots in the museum community. What if, she thought, we could survey the audio archives of the voices and stories housed at radio stations on the campuses of historically black colleges and universities, or HBCUs. So in her late 50s, she quit her day job, went back to school, and made it her mission.

Jocelyn served as the very first archives fellow at Dayton, Ohio's only national public radio station, WISO, where she produced Rediscovered Radio, a series built around WISO's Civil Rights Era Audio. Now, Jocelyn works with HBCUs to start a dialogue around preserving the audio at their radio stations. Her work gets grounded in making sure we preserve our stories, and in doing so, that we preserve the magic of audio. So how did you get into your work preserving audio at historically black colleges? In 2013, I took an audio production course at the local public radio station, and I just got bit by the bug. And by 2015, I had quit my day job and was producing part-time and teaching part-time. And I had always in the back of my mind had this idea. that I, you know, would love the thought of doing long-form audio at HBCUs because it's not something

that's typically taught in mass communications courses and programs. And when I was working initially, I used some archival audio from WISO that is mainly from the 60s and 70s into the 80s. And so it reflected the the civil rights era and also the movement into black nationalism, the peace movement, anti-war movement of the 70s. And I just became enamored of historical materials, kind of related to my background in the museum community. There's around 100 roughly HBCUs in existence today, and a third of them just about have radio stations. And I thought, you know, if WI.S. has this kind of material. It was also a college radio station initially at Antioch College in Yellow Springs. If that college radio station has such incredible material, and I mean it's

incredible material, and the voices of people who were significant from those periods are represented there, as well as the history of the local area and the college and the state and, you know, what was going on in the world. But I thought, HBCU, being the crucible of the civil rights movement in so many ways, must have some materials too. And so I had thought about it. And when I quit my day job, I went back to school and got a grad certificate in public history

with a focus on archives so that I would be knowledgeable about the archival process and about the materials and their preservation. And in the course of doing that, I kind of fell into a preservation activity that was initiated at the Library of Congress, the Radio Preservation Task Force. And that just opened up this whole world of people who were seeking out and figuring out how to preserve and use these materials all over the world. So I was aware of this world, but I became kind of immersed in it. And I became a member of the African American and Civil Rights Radio Caucus of the Radio Preservation Task Force and went to conferences and did presentations with this idea that wouldn't it be great if we could survey the materials at historically black colleges and universities.

And someday if I can find the funding for it, that's what I'm going to do. do. Justin got a grant from the National Recording Preservation Foundation to survey HBCUs about what kind of audio were housed at their campus radio stations. How tragic is it to think that an audio recording of Rosa Parks could be collecting dust in some campus basement somewhere? Well, Justin wanted to make sure these radio stations had access to the ability to archive their audio.

What I found was that radio stations at, most colleges are not necessarily included in the institutional records management or preservation efforts that the college normally takes on, and that it was an opportunity to connect the radio stations with the institutional archives on their campuses and at least get a dialogue going, if not get the institutional archives to take on the task of preserving the audio material So what was it exactly about HBCUs? Why did you feel like it was so important to be doing that work on HBCU campuses? Having sort of an intimate understanding of the challenges that are faced by HBCUs and also their importance to the American higher education landscape and to our communities. And there were times when, you know, teachers, doctors, lawyers, engineers were, you know, trained primarily at HBCUs.

And that's one of the things that distinguishes a historically black college from a predominantly white institution. So to me, they are precious. They are sacred ground. And they are in their communities. And, you know, here in Ohio, we're a bit isolated. But as I got to know my counterparts at other campuses and got to know their institutions, you know, and realizing how important they are to black people in this country

and particularly in the southeast, they are hallowed ground. And anything that took place there is worthy of not just preservation, but also honoring to look to it as an example of resilience. I don't know that we can even imagine those of us who do not live in the former Confederate states what life was like and how our institutions, our churches, our communities, but especially centered around our historically black campuses were refuges, places of, you know, where the intellect and ingenuity and creativity of black people could shine and thrive. And, you know, that's an important legacy to honor.

And with audio, it's such an intimate and, and, you know, emotionally charged medium. And I think that, you know, finding materials, which is very difficult, radio is ephemeral. And not a lot of recordings were made at times. Making recordings was expensive. You know, a quarter inch tape was expensive. The playback equipment was, you know, expensive.

and maybe few and far between at times. That changed, you know, when cassettes became more prominent. But certainly when it was real to real, you know, that's a big bulky machine with a big bulky tape. So, you know, to try to find anything. And also, you know, the thing about radio stations is that they often change format when the license changes hands. And what happens is whatever was happening before kind of gets swept up and thrown out into the dumpster. So to make sure that anything that might be of significance at an HBC radio station is, you know, found and preserved is kind of, that's a mission for sure. Audio is a special medium.

That intimacy is one reason why I became a podcaster in the first place. hearing someone tell their story is just different than reading it in print. Through her work, Jocelyn preserves this intimate magic for future generations. I often wonder if people listening to two audio producers talk about audio production is like boring. But I have to say, when you talked about the intimacy of the medium of audio, like that's what made me fall in love with it. And I'll never forget my grandmother, she's now passed away. she is from Charlotte, North Carolina, and she is a, you know, black southern matriarch of a big southern family. And the University of North Carolina reached out to her to do this archival project where she sat down and talked about her life with a researcher.

And I had read clips of this before, and I really enjoyed reading it. But one day I found the audio of her telling these stories. And something about hearing her voice was so different. You know, I had read what she had said before, but hearing her say it in her own words, I just have always felt that there's something intimate and magical about the medium of audio. Just, you know, it's so intimate.

It's in your ears. And it just can hit you in a different way, I feel. And I don't know. I guess I've always, when people ask, you know, why audio? I never really have a good answer, but I think it just always comes back to that intimacy. Well, one of the things that creates that intimacy, if you think about it, is that if we're thinking of other media and we're thinking of especially of visual media, what you see is what is in the frame. What you see is what the person who made that image, or whether it's moving or not,

but what the person you're seeing, what the person that made that image chose for you to see, what they curated for your eyes. And with audio, I tell people, you can't use Photoshop on audio. You cannot change what you hear. Microphones are dumb. They're not smart. They pick up everything. So what you hear is what was heard.

You hear all of it. You hear the train whistle in the background. You hear the sirens. You hear the birds singing or the crickets chirping. And so not only do you hear all of that, you hear the emotion in someone's voice. You hear them take a breath and think about what it is they're about to say. You hear them choke up. You hear them laugh.

And you hear it all without a filter the same way that, you know, that, you know, that with a visual, that image is curated. So I think that that's what creates that sense of total experience, even though it's just coming through your ears. And there's something about that vibration that, you know, it's on a vibrational level, you know, that even in a recording, even in a facsimile, you can feel that vibration.

When I first got into podcasting, I was very self-conscious because I was very new at it. And so I would try to edit my audio to make it seem as though, you know, I was just the most well-spoken person. I never, you know, used a filler word. I never stopped and restarted. I never had to catch my breath. I never, you know, cleared my throat while I was thinking. And it's funny because those are all the little markers of somebody figuring something out in real time. And that's actually why you listen to audio.

you get these unfiltered, unedited moments that aren't photoshopped, like you said. And I think the more that I, when I realize that the reason why I like audio is because you get to hear the crickets chirping and the this and then that, and allowing those little nuances to stay in my own audio, it really just, I feel like it all clicked for me. It really helped me in the craft of audio storytelling. I think what it does is it helps us stay in touch with our humanity. You know, even if it's, even if something we're listening to is highly produced, you still get that sense that, you know, you're hearing it.

Hearing and listening are active, you know, sorts of things. It's that you're not passive. You have to pay attention. You know, you have to let your brain absorb, you know, what's being heard and make sense out of it. So, I mean, I think there's a humanness to audio work that really, you know, kind of transcends the fact that we are using these highly technical and, you know, technological tools to, to preserve it and, and, you know, disseminate it. More after this quick break. Another podcast from some SNL

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That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Let's get right back to it. So do you have a, maybe do you have an example of like a favorite piece of audio that you have found in your work or one that stuck with you? Um, wow. That might be a big question.

That's a big question. You know, I spend so much time, um, listening that, I listen to a lot of things. And, you know, I think that's what I love about the archival audio, actually, is that it transports me, you know. It takes me back to a place. There is a, I think it was probably a Pacifica-produced interview with Maya Angelou that just, you know, still knocks my socks off.

And it's, it's, it was part of WISO's collection because back in the day, folks used to swap tape. So it was a tape that ended up somehow in WISO's tape library, but was produced at, I believe, at WBAI, if I'm not mistaken. So it was, it was, you know, from, from years past and she sings on it. She not only speaks her poetry, but she also sings a spiritual. This is Uprising. Up next, the late, great Maya Angelou. It's in the reach of my arms, the span of my hips, the side of my step, the curl of my lips, because I'm a woman phenomenally, phenomenal woman, that's me.

If you listen to it, again, and you know, as we were just saying, you hear everything in her voice. You hear her life in her voice. You hear the black experience in her voice. It's just, yes, it's transportive. It's transcendent. So transformative. Yeah, that's one of my favorite pieces of audio for sure. According to the women's audio mission, a nonprofit that trains women engineers and producers,

less than 5% of the people creating the sounds, music, and media that make up the daily soundtrack of our lives are women or gender-non-conforming folks. And as a podcaster, I know that our audio landscape definitely skews white and male. But it also tends to skew young, a dynamic that Jocelyn, who quit her day job to train as an audio producer in her late 50s, challenges. So what was it like getting involved in audio production as a woman in her late 50s? Well, what I felt like I was bringing to the table was a lifetime of experience. So the technical part of it was not a big stretch for me. And in fact, the first time I sat down with Hindenberg and started to edit my own tape,

I was in the zone. I was in the flow, I mean, almost immediately. So I'm a musician. You know, I've done other creative pursuits in my life. And it was, you know, I recognized pretty quickly that I was doing something that was filling my heart and soul in ways that other things I had been doing was not. So, you know, so that part of it came pretty easily. And then because I was working in some community-based, you know, production areas, it wasn't really an issue so much that here was this person who in her 50s just, you know, just starting out. And I had a lot of success pretty early on because I was doing work that I knew.

I had a series called Rediscovered Radio in which I took the archival audio at WYSO and used it to make short pieces, short documentary pieces that aired on the radio station during the drive time shows, so during morning edition and all things considered. So I learned to work with the NPR clock almost right away. I was doing interviews as well as contextualizing the historical audio and putting it all together. And that the first, I did two seasons of it. So, you know, I've done dozens and dozens of them. So I got to work at the craft like hands-on, already producing for-air material that, you know, was, you know, the kind of production work that I think you don't necessarily get to do even as a young person. I was the producer of this series.

I was able to take the maturity that I had from the other parts of my life, plus the fact that I'd been this high-level administrator and I know how to get things done. So I didn't have a lot of downtime or, you know, when I jumped into it, I really got to jump into it. So there was that, but I have seen what I would consider ageism in the field. And in fact, that's a conversation that we're having at air right now about what that looks like. And not only for people newly entering the field and a pivot, you know, in their careers, but people who have been in the business for many, many, many years and have weathered all its changes as it has progressed and are finding themselves. now getting boxed out or overlooked for something younger, new, or fresher kinds of things.

So, you know, I think because I work with historical materials and I have a certain amount of firsthand knowledge of some of the events and so forth, you know, it has served me really well. But, you know, I also have found that I need to push my, my, my, skill set and my my my producing chops, I have to just keep pushing it beyond that so that I'm doing work that is, you know, topical and, you know, again, new and fresh and, you know, keeping not just myself, but listeners engaged with what's going on in the world. So, yeah, I've just been really fortunate. It was all kind of a perfect storm of goodness. That's the best kind of storm. Yeah. You talked about ageism and how, I don't know, I guess I feel like we have this very pervasive

culture where we're obsessed with 30 under 30 lists and people who are sort of young and successful. And that's a great story. But it does just, it does discount. the wisdom and the skill set and the experience that comes with age. And I feel like we are so obsessed with youth that we can overlook that, yeah, if you came to audio production in your 50s, that would mean that you would come with an entire skill set, you know, of, and like many years of experience. And I think that because we're obsessed with youth, we don't allow for that to be as meaningful and as good of a thing as it really truly is. Oh, no doubt.

And a lot of that is very cultural. And, you know, I mean, one of the things that I have been working with lately has been community-based storytelling projects. And much of that is focused on gathering and preserving and sharing the stories of elders. And going back to, you know, a cultural mindset in which the wisdom of elders, is held in high esteem. And that is very much a traditional communities hold elders in high esteem.

And trying to move back toward that, I think, is very important. But work with oral histories and with interpreting some of the, say, for instance, interpreting some of the events that some of the historical audio might be representing is, you know, who better than someone who was actually there and who experienced it, you know, in their own lifetime. So, you know, really honoring the voices and the stories of elders as part of this work and finding that, you know, many of those elders are quite capable of, you know, producing and being, you know, active participants in that story gathering and that storytelling. So, you know, that's, I think, really important work, but, but truly it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a

cultural thing in the U.S. for sure. It's not quite as, um, I think, uh, you know, intense in other places as it, as it really is here. It definitely is a, a cult of youth in, in the U.S. and, um, you know, I, one of my favorite things to, to tell people is like, there's this old Richard prior bit where the junkie and the whino are talking. And the junkie says something to something to him of the effect. It's like, you old fool. And the whino says, boy, you don't get to be old being no fool. I love that. I love that. I have to tell you, I mean, I hope this isn't like too much information, but I'm speaking to you today from my brother's condo in Richmond, Virginia. And I live in Washington, D.C. And the reason why I'm here is because our father had an unexpected health emergency.

So I'm here so that I can take care of him while he's been in the hospital this week. And he's on the upswing. He's doing much better. But when I brought him in on, when he came to the hospital on Monday night and he was not doing so well, all I could think was that I wish I had brought my recorder so that we could have a conversation so that I could. I could hear his stories and get them on audio. That was all I could think was, God, I wish I had my recorder. God, I wish I had my recorder so that we could have, we could, you know, have a conversation because I often worry that, you know, we all love to have our elders in our lives. And then when they pass on, we would like, it would be, how meaningful would it be to be able to have an archival of those stories in their own words?

It was all I could think was like, I hope I haven't missed my chance to get his stories on audio. That was like the number one thing in my mind. Never leave home without it. That's what I'm learning. That's a producer trick. I mean, and sometimes I'm like, why am I hauling this stuff around? I don't use it. It's here.

But I have a bag that I love that has my kid in it. And I just make sure that if I'm going, going to be someplace where I don't know what's going on necessarily that it's in the car. You know, I just take it with me everywhere. But the other thing is, you know, you have a recorder probably, you know, in your back pocket. And done right, you can capture some pretty decent audio with a smartphone. own. And so in a pinch, you've got something right there that you could use. And, you know, StoryCorps has done a marvelous job of making it possible, you know, democratizing the whole

notion of preserving stories. And their interface for recording is really, really good. But you can get a pretty decent recording if you have an iPhone with voice memo. So voice memos is a, you know, perfectly good recorder. On this podcast, I try to, what I try to do is sort of create a kind of audio archive of underrepresented people and their contributions to technology, to digital culture, to internet culture, specifically because I feel those things can be kind of ephemeral. They can, you know, the internet changes so quickly and people forget about what came before. And so, I wanted to chronicle some of this. What would your advice be to make sure that more underrepresented communities and voices are having their stories included in records and archives so that we know they existed?

Well, particularly with podcasts, there are a number of people who are developing podcast archives. And seeking those folks out is, important, but also public libraries are undertaking some audio preservation. We work with the Green County Public Library here to preserve some of the digitized material from the WISO collection, which includes oral histories and so forth from the civil rights era. So making sure that you, approach your existing institutions to be able to make sure that they're including your materials in their collections as a member of that community, I think is an important thing to do. And I think that that's something that archivists as a profession are looking at more of

knowing that they are gatekeepers for cultural materials and knowing historically what that has meant, which has mean in which, you know, white supremacy has created barriers to that material being collected and preserved. So, you know, there are many, many archival projects and archives that are, I think, opening their collecting, you know, policies to, to write wrongs that have been perpetrated in the past. So I think it's a changing situation, but certainly, again, you know, the HBCU community is a place where our stories are important and are considered, you know, worthy of preservation. And once again, I can't sing the praises of something like a community-based project that I'm

doing at West Dayton Stories, which is working with the African American communities in Dayton, Ohio to collect and preserve stories, or what StoryCorps can do with community-based projects. They have a whole tutorial that can teach an organization about how to collect and gather stories and preserve them through the StoryCorps at the Library of Congress or through their own means in the libraries or what have you in the community. So, you know, there's that. But I think part of it, too, is there's an understanding, you know, that materials are somewhat ephemeral themselves, you know, magnetic tape deteriorates,

color photographs fade, you know, film sticks together and can no longer be played. even digitized. And the whole digital environment also is not permanent. If you have materials that are preserved, so you think, on a hard drive, and that hard drive fails, that material is gone forever. So, you know, digital preservation is as a whole world unto itself. And, you know, look for libraries. often will have, you know, little preservation workshops for families and individuals, and sometimes there's a lot to be found there. But then there are some wonderful websites that have, you know, material that people can read to figure out how to preserve their photographs or preserve their old tapes or what have you.

And the Library of Congress has a really good website for that. So, you know, there's information out there. But it really does help to talk to somebody who's in the know. And oftentimes that's, you know, somebody you can find at your local library. I love how oftentimes it always comes back to libraries. Like we forget what a resource they are. Oh, they're so important, you know. Yeah, they are community touchstones for sure in many communities.

And, you know, it's really one of those places where civic life can, can take place. And that's their charge and that's what they're there for. So it's not just a repository for books and reading material, but there's so many other things. And today's libraries are places where there are makerspaces and they have podcasting studios and they do training in podcasting or audio or oral history gathering and all of those things. So, you know, they're really great resources for all of it. Yeah. I mean, you're a great resource too. You've really created this model of how institutions can be thinking about preservation and how all of us can be thinking about preserving the stories for our own families

and our own communities. So the next generation can learn from them and we're gone. So to that end, what do you hope that people say about your work 100 years from now? Well, I hope that for one thing, that the HBCU materials are still available and accessible to students and researchers and community members to tap into, to know what life was like in some respects before, you know, the civil rights movement was able to turn a tide of experience for black people in America and what happened throughout that and then beyond. And, you know, if you don't pay attention to history,

you're doomed or repeated, of course. And that's something that I think we're realizing today that we are experiencing because we haven't paid good enough attention. We haven't paid attention well enough to what's happened in the past and what's been done in the past. And that's an important thing to do. So, you know, 100 years from now, I wanted to start with the HBCUs, but I'm also hoping that the model that we set through the projects that are about, you know,

about preserving radio material from historically black colleges and universities. It was a model for others to follow and that other marginalized and, you know, others whose voices have been left out of the American dialogue have a template to follow so that they too can preserve their voices. Our voices and our stories matter. Preservation isn't just for institutions. We should all be thinking about preserving the stories in our communities and our families for future generations to come.

Don't let them fade away. We hope you enjoyed this special celebration of women making change at HBCUs. We'll be back with more There Are No Girls on the Internet soon. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis keep coming to him. He's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Wilfredel from PodMeets World.

And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. Again, we are experts. Listen to Podmeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.