There Are No Girls on the Internet - Rerun: The moral panic behind “groomers” is an attack on marginalized people

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

LGBTQ youth and the people who affirm and support them are being attacked online. Alejandra Caraballo, Clinical Instructor at the Harvard Law Cyber Law Clinic explains why it should concern all of us. WE’RE DOING A LIVE SHOW in NYC and VIRTUALLY on 5/28! Get tickets: Tangoti.com/live  Donate to the Trevor Project: tangoti.com/trevor  Subscribe to Alejandra’s amazing podcast Queering The Law: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1949544 Follow Alejandra: https://twitter.com/Esqueer_ Find a BansOffOurBody rally near you: Tangoti.com/rally Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Say hello at [e-mail] See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. This weekend, a 22-year-old man entered Club Q, an LGBT nightclub in Colorado Springs, Colorado. He opened fire, shooting and killing five people, and injuring at least 19 others. He was subdued by Richard M. Fierro, a military veteran who was at the nightclub with his family, who tackled the gunmen, grabbed the gun, and hit him with it, while a trans woman, who apparently has been misidentified as a drag performer, stomped on him with her high heels.

This tragic attack on the LGBTQ community is just another escalation of the increasing climate of threats and violence against queer people, gay bars, and drag events all over the country. Because we are in the middle of a full-blown, dangerous moral panic around LGBTQ identity. Drag performers, queer people, and educators, are being smeared as pedophiles or being accused of grooming kids for sexual abuse.

And this comes as trans and queer people were already under attack. According to NBC, state lawmakers have proposed a record 238 bills that would limit the rights of LGBTQ Americans this year, or more than three per day, with about half of those bills targeting trans folks specifically. What's empowering these bills? In part, hateful online rhetoric, fear-mongering, and baseless conspiracy theories about trans and queer people. And when we first spoke back in May, months before the Club Q shooting, Alejandra Carabayo told me that we all need to be paying attention, because she says that the kind of escalation and violence like we saw at Club Q was only a matter of time.

My name is Alejandra Caravaggio. I am a civil rights attorney and currently teaching at Harvard Law School's Cyber Law Clinic as a clinical instructor. Alejandra has spent her entire life, building power for and with marginalized communities online and off. As we talked, she sat in her office at Harvard flanked by posters of historic power builders like Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson. So you are one of the first trans women of color to ever teach at Harvard. I guess my first question is, what has that been like for you? And how did you get here? How did you get to be doing what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, it's been surreal. I mean, I've been very fortunate.

I know you said one of, like, I was very fortunate to start at the same time as my, my dear friend, Anya Marino, who's working at the LGBTQ advocacy clinic. We started within like a day of each other at, you know, at the clinic. So we kind of both start at the same time. So we're both the first transomiment of color to teach at the clinic or at Harvard Law. I mean, it's been a quite an interesting experience. Like I've never been so close to like these kind of centers of power in this way. grew up in a very middle class, like Florida, suburb, like, you know, like Harvard just seemed like this, like,

pipe dream out there. And even then, you know, I went to Brooklyn Law School and I did three years of direct legal work doing immigration, family law with trans Latinx immigrants. And then two years of movement impact litigation at the Transcendant Legal Defense Education Fund. And then I've always been a bit of a tech nerd. So, you know, this kind of was a nice way to kind of give. myself a break. I kind of really burned myself out on movement work after five years, and especially during the Trump administration, it was just, it was a lot. So it's been great. My students are my favorite thing about teaching here. Like they, like, I think one of the things I always say is that, you know, law students come to school wide-eyed with a lot of hope and, and enthusiasm for the law.

And a lot of people, once they leave law school and actually practice law, become very jaded and cynical. And like, it's hard. I fought it, but in many ways, I've become very jaded and cynical about the law. And when I see, like, the next generation of lawyers and I get to work with them on projects and cases and really see, like, how they develop throughout the semester in terms of their legal writing skills and everything else, like, and just see, like, the passion of enthusiasm they have for the work.

and also just like the diverse backgrounds of the students that I'm teaching, all of those things. Like, it just, it fills me with hope. And like this, you know, right now, like, to a recording, like, I've been doing final evaluations with students. And this is like one of my favorite times because it's really an opportunity not just for me to help students improve, but like to help build them up. Because I have a lot of students that come from disadvantaged backgrounds that are not the typical, you know, what you think of, what do you think of Harvard? law and they are rock stars. And as like someone here who's like not typically represented, I feel like really realized the power of visibility, right?

Like just even being visible here means like, you know, students that come and tell me things that like they probably can't tell to like their 70-something year old cis white male professor, right? That just doesn't get it. And so that is just really huge like that visibility. And I think also like I take it to the next step. Like I have my Sonia poster behind me or my Sonya portrait. I also have, you know, I just like drew a Puerto Rican flag,

Judge Jackson and Marcia and Sylvia Rivera, and then, of course, Pedro Albizu Campos. I call it like my wall of power. Yes. I love it. I would be so beyond stoked if I came to college or came to law school and you were my professor and I was in your office looking at your wall of power, that's incredible.

Yeah, because you don't see these faces typically in the law school, right? Like you see a lot of older white folks, like, you know, famous alumni, stuff like that. It's rare that you see, like, people of color and, like, in that way. And it's like, I can point that we have two Supreme Court justices, one who's an alumni of the school. And Berraibiso Campos, who a lot of people don't know about, but he was the Puerto Rican independence leader, supposed to be. be the valedictorian of the class of 1921 of Harvard Ball School as an Afro-Latinx Burinqueno. And, you know, Harvard couldn't at that time, like, stand having an Afro-Latinx

man be the valedictorian so they've withheld his grades to keep up to delay him graduating so he wouldn't be valedictorian. But, you know, I have him here and I am working to make sure he is more visible on this campus. Yes, carrying that legacy. I love this. I guess one of my, one of the questions I'm so interested to get into is I know it has been a hard time for trans folks. And I think something about the Elon must news was that much harder on a time that's already been very difficult. So I want to like acknowledge that. You know, what is Twitter, the experience of being on Twitter on social media been like for you as a trans woman? Yeah. I mean, it's been it's been something else.

So I've been on Twitter for like 12-ish years, but I didn't really use it. I mostly just kind of had a Twitter to just check every once in a while, whatever was trending. And when I started running for city council, which I ultimately did not win, obviously. But when I, you know, I started heavily using Twitter as an organizing tool and as an ability to connect with others in a political way. And I really started building up a following like two years ago. I had like 100 followers on Twitter. And now I'm like at 16,000. So it's like it's ballooned.

And that experience changes, right? When you're an anonymous account with 100 people and you just kind of interact, like nobody really cares, right? But the minute you start getting a following and you start getting a lot of engagement and stuff like that, like the experience changes. You really start getting singled out. for people that if you like like for instance on Monday like I criticized Elon Musk buying Twitter and called it like called in a question like a lot of the things that he does are that come off as very like white supremacist like him flashing the okay symbol on SNL him having like a segregated workplace at Tesla his parents having wealth invested in an emerald mine in apartheid era South Africa I mean, I'm always just skeptical of any wealthy white person from South Africa.

Like, like, major red flag. Major red flags. Yeah. Like, yeah, you know, the family's wealth is built on colonialism, like explicitly. But, you know, things like that. And then, you know, just a history of transphobic jokes and statements on Twitter. And, you know, I think, like, calling you to question that. And my God, I got, like, hate mail on my personal work email.

which like that almost never happens. And like I had to go private because like I was getting not just bombarded because like I have my notifications filtered. So like if they don't follow me, I don't see it. You know, so like people can go at me all they want and do what ratio, whatever the hell they can. I don't care. Like I don't see it that way.

But what ends up happening is I do have my DMs open. So I can usually tell when something is going sideways. When I start getting a ton of actually hate DMs, And those get filtered as well, right? So it's just like message requests, so I don't even see them unless I like specifically go. Like it doesn't even send me a notification. It just like it's just when I'm checking my messages. So I may check them like once a day or something like that.

And yeah. And like flooded with messages on Monday. And it was just like a lot and it was overwhelming. And I was like, you know, I'm taking this private. And the only other time I've gotten that dog. child was when I criticized Joe Rogan. There's something about these like white men that just like drives others to just go to all these lengths to defend them.

I don't understand. They don't need to be defended. They have Elon Musk is a richest man in the world with 85 million Twitter followers. Joe Rogan has the most listened to podcasts in the world at like $200 million. Like he's got to be fine. He doesn't need a person. army to defend him. Yes.

Have you ever seen that meme where it's, it's like the Simpsons meme where it's like Elon Musk, you know, valid criticism and like internet weirdos diving in front of the bullet to save him from any kind of valid criticism. I feel like Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, there are two men who really, I feel like people must search on Twitter for their names to be like, yeah, like someone criticizing him, not on my watch.

And if you notice a lot of people who start criticizing Elon Musk or even Joe Rogan, what they'll do is they'll misspell his name. Like I've seen, like on my subsequent post, I was like using the name Melon Husk. Because like they would, but they literally, that's what they do. Like how much of a loser do you have to be to sit there and search the name Elon Musk so that when you see negative criticism, you dogpile that person and you like attack them? Like it's just, oh, it's just. Like ridiculous. Like get a life, get a job. Do something.

Definitely sounds like the behavior of someone who calls themselves an advocate of free speech. So for sure. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between between songs banter.

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We've seen increasing attacks on LGBTQ folks using the label Groomer. According to Research for Media Matters, on Twitter, the number of tweets with grumer-related language increased by over 60% in April, with over 870,000 tweets and retweets compared to nearly 545,000 tweets in March. Now, grooming is a serious thing. It's used to describe the actions an adult takes to build a relationship with a child that makes that child more vulnerable to sexual abuse. And today, both online and off, extremists imply that LGBTQ folks or those who affirm LGBTQ youth are actually pedophiles who present a dangerous threat to children. It's a resurgence. It's a resurgent. of a well-worn tactic of extremists.

In the 70s, anti-gay activist Anita Bryant ran the Save Our Children campaign aimed at repealing a local Florida ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. And a key component of her campaign was suggesting that gay teachers were a threat to the safety of kids. And it's not just fringe extremists.

Mainstream Republicans have passed legislation attacking marginalized identities like laws criminalizing trans youth or Florida's don't say gay bill that puts vague restrictions on talking about sexual orientation and classrooms. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' press secretary, Christina Pushaw, described the legislation as, quote,

the anti-grooming bill, tweeting that if you did not support the don't-say gay bill, quote, then you're probably a groomer or at least don't announce the grooming of four-to-eight-year-old children. Honestly, it is not difficult to see the influence of the Q&on conspiracy in her comments. And it should not be surprising to find that this moral panic has accompanied a wave of violent in-real-life threats

against LGBTQ people? It's already been kind of toxic. I think there's definitely been a vibe shift since February that I've noticed. And it's been on like anything I've ever seen, the kinds of attacks on LGBTQ people, specifically labeling LGBT people as groomers and pedophiles. Like I never thought that would like happen in that way. And it's just absolutely gross. Like it's one of the grossest things I've ever seen.

And so we saw, like, in February, like, lives of TikTok, James Lindsay, some of these, like, right-wing trolls, Jack Pasoviag. And eventually got all the way up, you know, and then what really changed was Desancis' press secretary, Christina Pusha, labeling the don't say gay bill is an anti-grooming bill. And, like, that was the first time we had, like, a government official put the imprimatur of, like, you know, this is a government message that, like, we're, you know, if you oppose don't say gay, you're a groomer kind of thing. And it was terrifying. Like, like, I think for pretty much all the trans people I know on Twitter, like, it's like blaring red siren, like, this is getting bad. Like, this is going to lead to people getting killed.

And we've already seen someone walk into a bar in Brooklyn with kerosene and set in a gay bar and set it on fire. Just like two days ago, someone threw bricks through a Pride Center in Burlington, Vermont. And this comes about two weeks after, I believe her name was Feather Fern, was murdered in Vermont, like a trans woman. And the person tried to initiate like the trans panic defense. And so like we've already seen that. And like the attacks on like this gay couple on an Amtrak train in California being called pedophiles and child stealers because they adopted two kids. Like it's just horrific stuff.

And this is directly as a result of the toxic online discourse. And because of this, like Twitter has generally tried to do the right thing. But anytime it's specifically around trans people, anytime they try to make it better for trans people, the right-wing echo sphere just goes into overdrive. Like they just, like it is like they feel like it's their constitutional right to go on private companies' websites, to harass trans people.

It's really not surprising to me that Twitter has emerged as this new battleground for the so-called culture wars. Traditionally, marginalized people use Twitter to carve out power and a voice for ourselves. We built movements like Me Too and Black Lives Matter on Twitter. And I think the idea of marginalized people building power on Twitter

is incredibly threatening the people who have traditionally had all the power. For instance, Elon Musk said that he was inspired to buy Twitter after the right-wing parody sites, the Babylon B was suspended for refusing to delete a transphobic misgendering Admiral Rachel Levine, who was a trans woman and the Assistant Secretary for Health for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And, like, that's what we saw, like, we saw what was reported, right?

The Babylon B being suspended for its joke about Dr. Levine was supposedly one of the last straws for Elon Musk. And so, like, they push the envelope, they push this hatred, And then when a site tries to step in and say, like, this is leading to violence, this is causing harm, they, you know, cry free speech or whatnot. But what it really is is they want the freedom to bully. Right. Like, because if you want to say, like, I hate trans people. I don't believe they should exist.

You can say that to the cows come home, right? Like, you could just go on a street corner and yell it. That is free speech. The government cannot stop you from saying that. You can scream it out of a corner. You can write manifestos. You can like do it. Write a novel how much you hate trans people.

Knock yourself out, right? But a social media company is different. They are not under those obligations. And people fundamentally do not understand that. The problem is, like, if you make a social media company hostile to people, you're not going to stay around very long. Like, we've seen what sites with no moderation are like, 4chan, H, A, Chan, A, Koon, you know, all these sites. they don't have advertisers.

No typical person goes on there because it is filled with racial slurs, anti-Semitic slurs, homophobic slurs, just the worst of the worst. It is literally filled with actual Nazis, like posting Nazi means. So like, we know what that looks like. And so at some end, like Twitter has to engage in moderation.

And it really what it is is like they're trying to use transatlantic Use trans people as a wedge to basically destroy a social media site for daring to protect trans people. The way that I see it is that, you know, in the last five, ten years or whatever, social media platforms, I would say all of them, but really Twitter is like a special platform. People who have been traditionally marginalized have been able to, you know, have a little bit more of a voice and have a little bit more power that institutionally we didn't really get. get to have. And I think that that's maybe one of the reasons why we're seeing this Twitter be this big battlefield right now because I think people who are threatened by that, people who are threatened when they see, you know, people who have traditionally had a harder time making their voices heard, get those platforms, get those voices. And even if a, even if a platform like Twitter does

the bare minimum to make their platform a little bit hospitable to these voices, that feels very threatening or threatened, yeah, that feels very threatening and therefore they have to sort of go out of their way to remind folks, no, this platform needs to be hostile toward people who are traditionally marginalized. I want that status quo back or I can say whatever and they can't say anything. Right, right. And like, it's like the classic saying, right, when all you're accustomed to is privilege, equality feels like oppression. And that's very much what it is. Libs of TikTok is a Twitter account run by Shia Raycheck with over 1.2 million followers that basically exist to spread lies and fear about teachers grooming children. The account is called

public schools, quote, government-run indoctrination camps for the LGBTQ, spread outlandish lies about LGBTQ youth and teachers, while also singling them out for harassment and abuse. It's also become an influential piece of right-wing online infrastructure. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis his press secretary, Christina Pushall, said the account truly opened her eyes on the state of LGBT education in schools. I think one of the most illustrative issues of this was TikTok. Like, what it is, it's all about fundamentally power. And it's power to make sure that the in-group maintains power in society and the out-group is

minimized. And in this case, the in-group is mostly white conservatives, mostly white conservatives, mostly white supremacists and others and fascists. And then what you have is the outgroup is like queer LGBTQ people, people of color, women, others, and like they want to marginalize. And so what ends up happening is, is like you have TikTok, right? So like TikTok, or not TikTok, lives of TikTok is specifically retweeting videos of LGBTQ teachers that likely have like maybe 100 or 1,000 views on TikTok.

These are relatively obscure people that are just posting their thoughts online. They rip those videos and they post them online with very leading titles. Some of them, like, I've watched the videos. It's just like a teacher talking about the students asking them who their husband is and they like came out to the class. And they were like, if anyone comes out and if any gay teacher comes out, they should be fired on the spot. Like that's literally what lives of TikTok's in.

And so then they come out and they're like, you know, they're just exposing liberals for what they say and they're just showing up and, you know, that's what they do. And then like, meanwhile, like, they're sending a torrent of harassment towards these people that are relatively anonymous. And additionally, towards school districts, they're creating a whole panic by like pushing this groomer libel. And then essentially, you know, they want the power. to do that. And then the minute that anybody steps up and says, yeah, this is who that person is, Shia Racheck, like they forgot to use a pseudonym when they registered their domain name, and now that's public information, like they went into overdrive to attack Taylor Lorenzo at the Washington Post, who didn't even expose it, by the way. Internet researchers exposed it.

And they were so upset that this person was like, doxed or, you know, quote unquote, or that they were exposed and that like it was so vicious and she's exposed to harassment all this stuff. And it's like, it's literally what she does. She sends harassment and like not her directly, but it's like what's called stochastic terrorism, right? She knows that by putting somebody on blast on her Twitter, what will happen? And the fact that she was scared of people knowing who she was and the fact that they acted like it was some big thing to expose that, like grow up, grow up like you have an account with a million followers now you are getting interviewed by Tucker Carlson and national media and you have an expectation of privacy i'm sorry you do not um and

you know and again don't use your actual name to register a domain a domain like just don't do so but but again like going back to the dynamic like this is about preserving power right like that's what lives of TikTok does, right? It creates a chilling effect. How many queer or LGBTQ teachers on TikTok are not going to talk on TikTok or post a video for fear that they will be their content ripped and then there will be fired or have a mob at a school board meeting talking about them to asking for them to be fired? Teachers making or are parents making accusations against them? all these things just for existing as a queer person, right? Like, it is a moral panic that is what was going on right now.

I'm so good that you brought this up because this is something that I talk about a lot on the show and just in general. So Elon Musk and people like him, they love talking about free speech. And from the way they talk, it would seem as though the people who are likely facing consequence for the things they say are white, conservative or libertarian men who just like want to say slurs or whatever. But the reality is that it's marginalized people who are much more. more likely to face consequences for the things they say, especially online. And so, you know, I guess my question is like, how can we, and I think that just completely gets missed whenever we're having a conversation about speech and who, you know, free speech for who. How can we change that conversation, change that focus so that it is about the reality that it's queer folks,

trans folks, sex workers, activists who are either pushed out of spaces or silenced or, you know, de-platform for what they say. Like, like, why do you think that when we talk about, But when people who seem so obsessed with talking about speech, why do you feel like the marginalized people who we know are the people who are facing consequences for what they say? Like, why are they able to get left out so often? Yeah. It's mainly because, you know, again, it's insidious what these people do, right? So it again boils down to the difference between equality and equity, right? So if everyone has access on Twitter, that's equality.

That's how everyone's equal here on the site. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's equity, right? Like there's all kinds of things that go into a social media site. Like even having time to be able to post on Twitter, that's a privilege because a lot of people do not, like there are people working two jobs, three jobs, like doing stuff. Like they don't have time to pay attention on Twitter. They're raising kids like to do all this stuff.

So like that already, like you're already creating all these things. But, you know, one of the things I always love to point out with like the difference between equity and quality, is like, let's say you had three children that were different ages and sizes. One is like three foot, one is four foot, one is five foot. And there is a four foot fence covering while they're trying to watch a baseball game. Well, you could say, I'm going to give them all a one foot block for them to stand on. The third child is still not going to be able to see. But that's equality, right?

They all got the same boost. And the first kid who didn't even need it in the first place is now even higher up for a better view. But what equity is is understanding the nature of the situation and giving that first kid a two-foot block, the middle kid a foot block, and then just leaving it. And that is equity, right? And so understanding that. And so there's an idea here that we've been discussing within the clinic, you know, within our course here in our seminar, like talking about algorithmic reparations. like the designs of these sites because people act like that these things are designed neutrally,

they're not. There's always conscious bias that goes into the design of these websites. And so if you're not actively countering it, you are permitting it. And so that's one of the aspects of the design of sites like Twitter that needs to be accounted for. And I think Twitter hasn't necessarily gone that way. They're just trying to plug holes in everything that shows up, right?

but they're at least attempting. I think they have like they're trying. So that concept of equity, right? That's what they're demonizing. They're demonizing diversity, equity, inclusion. They're acting like it's this horrible thing. They're banning, you know, any talk about critical race theory, which like, I'm like, if you want to take critical race theory, you have to be like a two-all or three-all here

at Harvard Law School. Like, we're not teaching it to kindergartners. Like, that is not what's happening. But that doesn't matter, right? Like, all they have to do is scream it, and that's all of a sudden that's reality. And, like, what is even more disturbing beyond the critical race there, which is, like, just a wholesale denial of this country's history. It's all to protect white innocence, right, at the end of the day. Like, that's what it's about.

It's protecting white innocence. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs

without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win, no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quinton, Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Just in case you needed any more proof that we're in the middle of a full-blown moral panic, Last month, Florida's Education Department accused publishers of trying to indoctrinate kids with math textbooks

by trying to sneak in lessons grounded in emotional and social learning, which is basically a class-free methodology that helps kids understand their emotions around subjects and demonstrate empathy for others. For example, if a math book said that sometimes math problems can look scary, or if a book said, it's good to work together to solve problems, those would be examples of social and emotional learning. The Washington Post reports that Florida's Education Department said that it rejections, 41% of books, the most ever in Florida's history.

Even though at least 24 of those books scored high marks from the official state reviewers for conforming to Florida's standards, but were rejected anyway. And this crackdown happens, all while people like University of Virginia recent grad, Emma Camp, who published a recent New York Times op-ed about how conservative speech is being suppressed on college campuses are uplifted as the face of attacks on free speech. What's more devious is like this attack on emotional and social learning, Like, this is what we saw in Florida with, like, 40 books, math books, band. For the crime of putting, it's sometimes better to learn together.

Listen to other people. Hear what they have to say. And it's like, are you trying to raise a country of sociopaths? Like, what is the goal of that? Like, literally these people would, like, attack Mr. Rogers today. Yeah, I saw one of my favorite. books growing up was babies everywhere. And it's like essentially a picture book about how there's babies everywhere. And it was banned in some state. I can't remember where. And the offending,

the only like offending image, I use that in scare quotes, was one of the babies behind the baby was two men. And one of the men has his hand on the other shoulder. And so it's like, I was reading this interview with the author. And she was like, we don't explicitly say that they're married or that they have this child. It's like they could be brothers, they could be friends. Like, we don't even say anything. But under these, under, in this new climate,

just the suggestion, like, oh, two men standing next to each other. No, can't have that in schools. Can't have anybody seeing that. Yeah. I mean, that, that's, that's part of it, right? Like, it's erasing any sense of queerness. And this is what, like, is frustrating about mainstream coverage around this whole debate, right?

Like, we constantly see op. after op-ed about I don't feel like I can say what I want to say in classrooms and like what they mean in like college classrooms or like college courses or college campuses. Like I feel like if I say something, my classmates might ostracize me. And I'm like, okay, that's real life. Like I'm sorry, that's a new concept. You say something unpopular and people will not like it. I mean, You can't... I can't go into my office and be like, all y'all smell like shit

without my co-workers getting up again. What's the deal? It's like, yeah, it's called, it's always been that way. There are consequences of the things that you say. People can ostracize you when they don't like what you have to say. And I guess I feel like in comparison to the way that we're seeing this very clear crackdown

on marginalized voices, it just seems so like whose stories get amplified of, you know, quote unquote, having their free speech. crack down on where it's like, oh, my college classroom, when I said something, they didn't like it compared to, you know, people being five, it's just really wild to me in the mainstream coverage who gets amplified and who doesn't. Yeah. Like in that story that was in the New York Times recently, like the woman who wrote it, like had already just graduated and I think was working

for Reason magazine and like was being pushed up by fire and, which is like a big or like libertarian org and like has like these powerful people behind her like performing and she's like she went to university of Virginia which is like already like one of the top schools in the country and so she's like went to a top school is working at a national media and is like I can't say what I want to say in the college classroom meanwhile the most banned books in the country are literally is like literally um anything dealing with LGBTQ people I mean we're literally talking about like books that each are like two penguins. Like it's it's insane like and there are like entire like there are school boards like saying that books should be burned. Like I'm sorry like on what way is

any of this like on an equal plane like that is a much greater threat because like you know as the cliche goes like where they burn books they will burn people like that is far. That is far scarier because that is much more systemic and that is using the levers of government to achieve it. It's not a private company deciding who is coming into their little social media site and saying stuff. Like that is that they're using the government. And so like that is on, that's explicitly what the first amendment was to protect. The first amendment is to protect us against the government censoring speech. So we have governments censoring speech, banning books, And, like, barely a PIP.

And, like, all of a sudden we have, like, one white girl on a college campus who feels like she can't say something. And, like, that's on the front page of the New York Times. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm, you lost me. I guess, you know, do you see this kind of climate that we're in that is so hostile to, or where we're seeing such a backlash against marginalized voices? Do you, that, you know, we know, brew online and brew on social media sites.

Do you see this as a direct threat to democracy? Yeah, I absolutely do. I mean, we've seen what social media can do when it's unchecked. Literally, all we have to do is like a 2016. I mean, I remember being in the middle of it on Reddit. Like, Reddit was a heavy site for disinformation in the 2016 campaign. And, like, I felt like I was losing my mind. And, like, reading similar stories of people in Ukraine in 2014,

like, that's what it feels like when you're subjected to that kind of disinformation because you will talk to people in real life. And like nobody talks that way or believes anything like that. And like there's one thing to be said about social media bubbles and like stuff like that. But it's a whole other one is like this just like completely out of left field stuff. And just the kind of vitriol that gets, you know, shared online. And like we've seen where that leads, right? Like Trump was most definitely like it's probably not the only factor.

Like there's a million things that went into it. But a huge reason why Trump was elected. was because of disinformation on Facebook, on Twitter, on Reddit, on all these sites. And so for people to think that this doesn't have like a potential threat to democracy, it has the ability to influence democracy. Like a conspiracy theory on Twitter got a man to go with an assault rifle to a pizza shop because of conspiracy theories around like the whole Pizza Gate conspiracy. There are people who believe that Wayfair is shipping children in furniture.

Like, if you, and like, was the, I feel like this one's always misquoted, but the Voltaire quote is like, if you can get people to believe in absurdities, you can get them to commit atrocities. And like that, that's exactly the kind of thing that I think about because like if you start labeling like trans people as this like groomer cult that are going after children and dammed. their bodies, quote unquote, and doing all these things and like all of this, like, and just the language you're using, it is a matter of time. It is not an if, it is a when. Someone is going to take matters into their own hands and they're either going to go shoot up a gay bar or they're going to bomb a gender clinic. I mean, we've seen this is the kind of stuff that's going on around like the organizing around gender clinics is the same kind of stuff that was happening in the 90s around abortion clinics.

And we, like, we've seen what happens around that. And so, like, this kind of amped up rhetoric, it's stochastic terrorism. Like, you can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online, but the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed it to happen in the first place. Yeah, I feel the exact same way. I live in D.C., so I remember very clearly when that happened at Comet Pingpong, the Pizza Place here in D.C., like, like, But, and I think I was, even before we just got on the call just now, I was reading that, I think the FBI arrested a man who was threatening to attack Miriam Webster, the dictionary, because he did not agree with the way that they were defining man and woman.

And yeah, I just, I just feel like we've come to this place where the temperature has been raised so much. And I see that as a direct result of things happening on social media, of social media algorithms really, you know, prioritizing the most extreme context. the most, you know, inflammatory rhetoric. And just, yeah, I guess I really, I hadn't intended for this interview to sound so alarmist, but it's, it is, I feel it. So, you know, it's just a lot. And I don't, I don't like, I don't feel good about, when I ask, you know, where does this end? I don't really like imagining what the answer to that question is.

Like, where does this end? I don't know. Probably nowhere good. This is what I've been reading. Oh, my gosh. So you're just like really. Long-term doom scrolling is what I call it. So no, I held up the book, Gay Berlin, which I talked about like pre-Wimar, but also mostly

Weimar Republic era, Germany, and how, you know, it was a haman for LGBT people. had like the first surgery, gender affirming surgeries it had some of the first attempt, like first administrations of hormones the first serious attempt at a study of queer and trans people of lesbians and gays and others.

Like it just like by Magnus Hirschfeld like all those things. And there was just kind of this like golden era where it was like it never really existed in that way in the West of tolerance, right? And Berlin. And it all just came crashing down down so quickly in 1933, but like if you have been paying attention, like, it wasn't a surprise.

Like, a lot of people got out, like, starting in the late 20s, early 30s. Like, they saw what was happening. And so it's like, I think people just think that like these things come out of nowhere. And like, you don't, you know, and I always hate, like, it's like God wins law and like bring up the Nazis and stuff like that. Because that's kind of, we just have so much media. So that's like it's easier to relate to. But I think like if you, you don't need to go far.

You can go to contemporary examples. You have Hungary and Poland. Hungary has banned the existence of trans people. They've banned all legal recognition of trans people in the country. They have passed gay propaganda laws, which the press secretary for Ron DeSantis in Florida admitted now that it was based on the ban in Hungary. So they're getting these ideas from these like far-right authoritarian, illiberal countries. And like Russia just dissolve the biggest LGBT rights org in the country.

And they've passed a gay propaganda law. Like they see that and they see that as a model. Like that is their goal. That is their inspiration. And that's terrifying because like that's exactly like the same kind of stuff. Like queer people right now are like that canary in the coal mine. And I would argue like before that it was it's very much been immigrants. Like having been an immigration attorney for three years, the kinds of stuff that people would say about immigrants, the kinds of policies we have here in the United States, like, are the conditions that we hold immigrants in and detention and the rights that they have, like would violate the genie of a convention.

Like, it is atrocious what we do. It is a human rights, like, violation and crime for what we do around immigrants. And, like, we saw the rhetoric with Trump, right? and then now it's LGBT people. And we already start to see this kind of massive reactionary backlash to the George Floyd protest, the Black Lives Matter protests. And like, it's only a matter of time, like, this is going to get worse. And it always reminds me with that poem.

It's like, you know, and I posted this and it went viral. And, you know, some people were like, well, you, was this group or was that group? I'm like, that's not the point. There's not a point of being a first group. It's the point that, like, if you don't stand up for a marginalized group, it's not going to stop. And so I posted the famous poem. It's like, first they came for trans people and I did nothing because I'm not trans.

That they came for the lesbians and gays and I did nothing because I'm not lesbian and gay. And I was like, we are here, right? Like, especially after this like grumer rhetoric. And it was just like, it was mind-blowing to me to see conservative gay men freak out. And like, oh, this has gone too far. like Andrew Sullivan was like apoplectic about the groomer labor being applied to him. He's happy to talk, happy for that label to be applied to trans people. But the minute it got applied to him was like, whoa, whoa, wow, this has gone too far.

And it's like, where did you think this was going? Like, did you think that they could just delineate between trans people and queer people? Like, they can't. Like, they're all the same. They think we're all degenerates. They think we're all like need to be wiped from this planet. Like that, it's exterminationist. They are not going to make some fine distinction for the.

good ones. I'd be like, oh, no, no, he's okay. No, not going to happen. Well, you know, I always end my interviews with a question. Are you hopeful? I guess I feel like, I'll ask. It doesn't sound like you are. When you look at the state of things today, are you hopeful? I posted about this on my Twitter the other day. I am a pessimist. Like, I am a pessimist. I love the quote from I'm a huge Marvel nerd. I love the MCU. I've watched, I just completed a whole rewatch of the MCU for like the fifth time. But there's like Zendaya's character, MJ and Spider-Man,

and she's talking, like, I always expect disappointments. That way, you know, if it happens, then, you know, I won't be disappointed. And that's the kind of attitude I have, which I feel like a lot of people, like that doesn't work for them, and that's fine. Like, some people need to be optimistic. Nothing wrong with that. The way I function, the way that I cope is pessimism. Because if I'm wrong, which I always hope I am, things worked out much better than I anticipated.

And so that's always kind of served me well. And so, like, for me, like, I see this going down a very dark path. And I don't think there's anything changing. And it's only accelerating and getting worse. And, like, I fully believe, like, by 2024, like, by November 2024 or early 2020, I think we'll see a like basically collapse of democracy in the United States. And things can go very south, very quickly. And so I've been starting to prepare.

I'm getting my passport ready and I'm starting to save up a ton of money and like getting ready to like, yeah, hey, Europe sounds good around this time of year. And like, you know, and I know there's not an option for everyone. It really isn't. Like a lot of people can't just immigrate. A lot of people can't get passports. A lot of people can't get the money to even fly, right? So, like, that's a privilege in of itself, but, like, we've got time.

If you can, like, you know, save money, like, all those things. I feel like I'm being very alarmist and, like, negative. But, hey, if it doesn't, if everything turns out fine and I'm catastrophically wrong, which I hope I am, well, now I've got my passport and I got a ton of money and I can go on vacation. Oh, there you go. That's a, like, you know, a little silver lining. on this shit sandwich that is our democracy and our country. Oh, I mean, it's bad.

I used to joke years ago back when I thought it was impossible. So my organizing background is in the reproductive rights movement. And I used to joke years ago that like, oh, if Roe ever falls, I hope I will be reading about it from the newspaper in a different country. And now it seems like, oh, well, I'm still here in the United States. and seems like it's going to happen. So guess that didn't work out for me so well. Yeah.

I mean, like, ask, you know, LGBTQ Russians, right? Like, I used to have some friends who were from Russia. And it was like, when is it going to get too bad to go back, right? Like, for them, like, to even visit their family. And, you know, now, obviously things have gone to a point where it's, like, not really okay. But for algebra people, like, was it in 2013 when they passed the game? propaganda long? Was it like 2017 when Chechnya started a concentration camps for gay men? Like, is it now that they start the war? And so like, there's always a question of like,

when is the right timing? And I don't think there really is. Like, if you left Berlin in 1929, you'd be fine. If you left in 1932, you'd be fine. If you even left in 1933, you'd likely be okay. If you waited until 1935 or even 1939, you were not going to be okay. Right. And so it's like, learning our history so that you can see the signs and knowing, okay, this is my red line, like I need to get out of here, or in having an exit plan, because things can also move quickly. I feel like knowing your history and knowing history is empowering. I mean, I'm glad that we have folks like you in our institutions who are helping, you know, the next generation to really have that power to be empowered by our collective shared history.

try as conservatives might to make that impossible to study and know and learn from. Yeah, exactly. Where can folks keep up with all of the incredible work that I know that you are up to? Yeah, you can find me. All my social media handles are S-Q-E-R, so E-S-Q-U-E-R. It is a portmanteau of S-S-squire and queer. Again, you can find me at S-square underscore on Twitter, Instagram, and you can catch my podcast querying the law.

We typically release weekly on Mondays. You can find it basically anywhere podcasts are issued. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. Is there anything that I did not ask that you want to make sure it gets included? Yeah. Please, please donate to the Trevor Project.

There is going to be a massive smear campaign against the Trevor Project this week or this upcoming week, this is how low they've stooped. They're attacking a suicide hotline. It's fucking sick. Like, that's all I'm going to say. So please, if you can, $10, $20, $30.

It's life-saving work. Our youth are bearing the brunt of this, and they need the help and support. So please, if you can, donate to the Trevor Project. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our merch store at tangoody.com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi?

You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcast. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joey Dardano, and on my new podcast, Hope From a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice.

Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, and recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to me. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from a Hypocrite Wednesdays on the Iheart radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us, Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall,

as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021.

And I'm Conky, his best friend, and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 Podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.

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