There Are No Girls on the Internet - Scarlett Johansson’s Open AI voice fight shows the need for consent in tech

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Scarlett Johansson says Open AI ripped off her voice for their ChatGPT4.0 even after she said no. No means no, Sam Altman!  Here’s what their behavior says about consent in tech. Scarlett Johansson Says OpenAI Ripped Off Her Voice for ChatGPT: https://www.wired.com/story/scarlett-johansson-says-openai-ripped-off-her-voice-for-chatgpt/ AI Art and the Problem of Consent https://artreview.com/ai-art-and-the-problem-of-consent/  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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844-844-I-Hart. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore the intersection of technology, social media, and identity. And all of those things intersected in a major way this week with Scarlett Johansson and Open AI. So let's talk about it. Full disclosure, I was already working on putting together an episode rewatching Spike Jones'

2013 movie Her, starring Scarlett Johansson's voice as an AI assistant. I really wanted to compare and contrast what the movie thought AI integration with our life would be like and what it actually has. has been like 10 years later. I'm really excited that the movie Her is part of the public conversation right now because it's one of my favorite movies. If you haven't seen it, I don't want to give too much away, but Scarlett Johansson is the voice of Joaquin Phoenix's AI software. The movie imagines a future where AI is less like Siri and more like a real human. People in the Her universe fall in love with AI. They have friendships and real meaningful relationships with AI. And that's partly because AI sounds like a real human person,

who speaks to you and behaves like a person would, not like a robotic voice. And as I was preparing for that episode, the whole thing was Scarlett Johansson really blew up. And the more I thought about it, honestly, the matter I got. Last night I was getting ready for bed and I was sort of angrily brushing my teeth. And I found myself thinking about this yet again.

And the kind of chorus in my mind that I kept saying over and over to myself was that these tech guys just think they own whatever woman they want. Because to me, this is not even really about Scarlett Johansson. It is about what happens when consent in technology is violated again and again and again, and how it erodes the trust that we should be able to count on being at the center of our tech experiences and how it reinforces that the most powerful companies in our world who are shaping our collective futures consistently demonstrate that they cannot be trusted to simply respect people, especially when those people are women. Okay, so here's what's going on. OpenAI,

the company that makes ChatGPT and a major player in the AI space, has been flirting with integrating voice technology to ChatGPT since around last year. But last week, OpenAI finally revealed a new conversational interface for ChatGPT that they called Sky. Yep, just like a lot of voice technology, Sky has the voice of a woman. But Sky also has a voice that is really sensitive. similar to the one that Scarlett Johansson used to play the AI assistant called Samantha in the movie Her. But then, Open AI suddenly disabled this feature over the weekend. Grand opening, grand closing. And this comes after OpenAI's head, Sam Altman, who you might remember we made an episode about he was fired for something.

We don't totally know what, but it seemed to be related to his lack of honesty. And then he was rehired and is now basically doing whatever the hell he wants. Well, Sam Altman was talking up this integration and comparing it to the movie Her and talking about how we'd finally have AI that felt like a real human that you could be friends with, which is a plot line right out of the movie. Which, spoiler alert, I do think that some of these tech geniuses might actually be low-key misunderstanding the takeaway from the movie. But anyway, so shutting down this new voice technology after Sam Altman was driving so much anticipation about it, everybody, myself included, was like, What is going on? Like, what's the story there? So then on Monday, we get the real team,

which is that Scarlett Johansson told Wired in a statement that OpenAI actually reached out to her to ask her to be the actual voice of their new conversational interface, and she declined twice. And that OpenAI basically just used her voice anyway, or at least a voice that sounds a lot like her voice. And OpenAI Sam Altman even tweeted a reference to her work in the movie Her when announcing that new chat GPT voice interface.

So there isn't really a ton of plausible deniability on his part even. Okay, so this is what Sky, OpenAI's, not Scarlett Johansson's, voice integration sounds like. I don't have a personal name since I'm just a computer program created by OpenAI, but you can call me assistant. What's your name? And here is Scarlett Johansson as the voice of the AI Samantha from the movie Her. Well, right when you asked me if I had a person, name, I thought, yeah, he's right. I do need a name, but I wanted to pick a good one. So I read a book

called How to Name Your Baby, and out of 180,000 names, that's the one I like the best. Wait, you read a whole book in the second that I asked you what your name was? In two one hundredths of a second, actually. Wow. It sounds pretty similar to me, and Scarjo agrees. Here's what she told why or than a statement. Last September, I received an offer from Sam Altman, who wanted to hire me to voice the current chat GPT 4.0 system. He told me that he felt by my voicing the system, I could bridge the gap between tech companies and creatives and help consumers to feel comfortable with the seismic shift concerning humans and AI. He said he felt my voice would be comforting to people. After much consideration and for personal reasons, I declined the offer.

Nine months later, my friends, family, and the general public all noted how much the newest system named Sky sounded like me. When I heard the release demo, I was shocked and angered and in disbelief that Mr. Altman would pursue a voice that sounded so eerily similar to mine that my closest friends and news outlets could not tell the difference. Mr. Altman even insinuated that the similarity was intentional, tweeting a single word, her, a reference to the film in which I voiced a chat system, Samantha, who forms an intimate relationship with a human. Two days before the chat GPT4.0 demo was released, Mr. Altman contacted my agent, asking me to reconsider, before we could connect, the system was out there.

As a result of their actions, I was forced to hire legal counsel, who wrote two letters to Mr. Altman and OpenAI, setting out what they had done and asking them to detail the exact process by which they created the Sky Voice. Consequently, Open AI reluctantly agreed to take the Sky Voice down. In a time where we are all grappling with deepfakes and the protection of our own likeness, our own work, our own identities, I believe these are questions. that deserve absolute clarity. I look forward to resolution in the form of transparency

and the passage of appropriate legislation to help ensure that individual rights are protected. So I really applaud Johansson here, and I think this is the first time that there has been a legal dispute over a sound alike that is, as far as we know, not AI generated.

And I think it could set a precedent for this kind of thing going forward, especially for voice actors and creative professionals who can't afford lawyers' feeds or a big lawsuit if their likeness or voice is used this way without their consent. Her statement is also just a good reminder that Johansen has been here before.

She is one of the most targeted celebrity figures for AI deep-faked images. So finding out that OpenAI actually asked Scarlett Johansson to work on this twice, and when she said no, they just found a sneaky workaround to do it anyway. Enrages me. It enrages me as a voice professional. It enrages me as a creative, and it enrages me as a woman. You know, when I say on the show that the exploitation of women is baked into technology in a lot of ways from the ground up, that these are features and not bugs, this is a great example of what I mean. It matters that a company like OpenAI would build their anticipated voice system in a way that has the exploitation of a woman baked into its earliest foundation. And this is not happenstance.

It colors how they see women and other marginalized people as just available to take from in service of them making. money to create their vision, a vision that by design ignores and exploits us. Like, don't these people understand that no means no? I should say that OpenAI says that they did not actually steal her voice, but I also want to say that I want 100% do not believe them at all. Here's OpenAI statement. We support the creative community and worked closely with the voice acting industry to ensure we took the right steps to cast ChatGPT's voices.

Each actor receives compensation above top of the world. market rates, and this will continue for as long as their voices are used in our products. We believe that AI voices should not deliberately mimic a celebrity's distinct voice. Sky's voice is not an imitation of Scarlett Johansson, but belongs to a different professional actress using her own natural speaking voice. To protect their privacy, we cannot share the names of our voice talents. So here's my opinion about what's actually going on. I believe that they probably did work with a human voice actor, and they probably intentionally picked a voice actor that sounded a lot like Scarlett Johansson. And I think they had this person ready to go

whether or not Scarlett Johansson agreed to do this or not. Like, I don't think they really cared about actually having Scarlett Johansson's permission. And they were going to either use this sound alike or use Scarlett Johansson's real voice. Because in addition to his single word, her tweet, Sam Altman, the head of Open AI, also said that the new AI voice technology, quote, feels like AI from the movies. OpenAI's chief technology officer, Miramirati, said that that was all a coincidence. But even still, it's like they want to have it both ways. They obviously want us, the public, to be associating their new technology with the AI and the movie Her. And they're clearly trying to capitalize on that for this rollout. But they want to have all of that and benefit from all of that without actually having the consent from the real human woman, behind the voice in the movie that they're referencing.

As Bethany Frankl might put it, it is a cheater brand. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

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Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

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That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast. network on TikTok. Ed are back. So I'm not an attorney, so I can't really speak to the legal frameworks at play here. But I do think it is a good opportunity to talk about consent in technology. So in my opinion, looking at the facts and the timeline, I believe Open AI picked a voice actor that sounded a lot like Scarlett Johansson to be able to complete this vision that

they had been hyping up that merges creativity and technology for their voice tech. And I think they were betting that legally they were in the clear because they were using a sound like. But beyond what might happen in a lawsuit, to me, this is the classic story of someone trying to cover their ass after they wheezzled out of getting consent. Like the question that Open AI is asking is probably would we lose a lawsuit? The questions that they're not asking is, is this ethical? Are we crossing the boundaries of what this person said they don't want to do? Or questions like, are we further damaging the trust? between the technology that we make and that we want using it?

And these are important questions that they should be asking because once that trust is damaged, it is not easy to win back. And the entire thing makes me incredibly uncomfortable because I can't not see that we're talking about a woman whose body is being used to financially benefit people who are mostly men. And these people who are mostly men have appointed themselves the architects of our future and have shown themselves to be the kind of people

who are not interested in clear of life. affirmative consent. I can't help but think that they feel as entitled to the body and likeness of a woman as they do to everyone's data and information online that they use to train their AI without consent for their own profit. It's about entitlement. And why would anybody watching trust these people? If Open AI thinks, like their statement says, that this was done working with the creative voice talent industry and meant to be done in a respectful way, I think it's fair to say that as an industry, we are not buying it. We're smart enough to see these tricks

and know that if this is how you're moving, that none of us should trust you. And I think that Open AI really needs to understand and internalize why we are also skeptical. It's because of their own behavior. This is a natural consequence of their actions. Scores of writers and artists and creative professionals have already had to sue Open AI specifically

for using their intellectual property to train their AI without their permission. and a big bulk of the Hollywood writer strikes was about AI stealing the work of creative professionals and then being used to replace those same creative professionals. Like Open AI doesn't get to act all shocked that people are then naturally skeptical of their intentions. And there just is a better way.

On the podcast I make with the Mozilla Foundation called IRL that explores ethics in AI, we spoke to artists Matt Dryhurst and Holly Herndon who are building AI consent systems at have I been trained.com that allows people to search popular AI training datasets to see if their work shows up in them and makes it easy for people to opt out of having their work used to train AI models.

Holly's a musician, and she built this publicly available version of her own voice that anybody can play with. So they're both big advocates of what can be created using AI when consent is at the forefront in a piece for art review called AI Art in the Prime. problem of consent, they underscore the importance of the intersection of AI and creativity being grounded in consent, writing, my hope is that a new era of abundant media will affirm this social value of art and artists. And this is why establishing new protocols of consent is so vital. I am a deep

believer in AI augmented expression and have no desire to limit experimentation or enshrine outdated IP laws. I would simply like to avoid what a world looks like in the absence of consent. When consent is absent, beautiful relationships and connections are stymied that could instead have been nurtured. I hope the dress rehearsal of an AI art future we are witnessing highlights what an opportunity we have to finally fix those damned broken links. And I think that's exactly what we have here. Trust has been eroded, consent has been violated, and those links have been broken. So what's next? Well, Scarjo is not backing down, and Homegirl is notoriously not afraid of a lawsuit. This is the woman who mounted a legal contract dispute against Disney, a notoriously litigious company, and walked

away with a settlement. So I don't see Scarlett Johansson's team backing off without a fight. OpenAI did pause the use of Sky and apologized directly to Johansson, saying, we are sorry to Miss Johansson that we didn't communicate better. And I want to get into all of this more on our episode breaking down her, but even the conversation about them wanting to use Scarlett Johansson's voice tells me a lot about how OpenAI is thinking about technology in this moment. It's like they want to give us the illusion that they're finding thoughtful ways to link creativity, connection, and technology in our futures, which is why they're trying to reference Johansen's voice from her, a movie that is at its core about sad, lonely, creative people

surrounded by technology and searching for connection. But it's just that, like a shallow, empty movie reference. Open AI cannot actually give us connection or community. The best they can do is a movie reference that uses a smooth stolen voice to kind of mimic those things if you don't look at it too closely. Sam Altman told Scarlett Johansson that using her voice would give people comfort and ease around this technology, people who maybe were a little bit anxious about how quickly AI technology has proliferated. And it's like they can't actually sort out a way to make technology that gives people a genuine reason to feel comfort about it. They can only offer a quick workaround.

And worse, in trying to reference this, tech leaders are showing that they think it's okay to do all of this without a strong foundation of consent. They think they have rights to whatever woman's body or whatever woman's voice they want without permission. And none of this bodes well for the kinds of futures they are going to use technology to try to create. And if these are the people who have appointed themselves to build all of our futures, then for everyone's sake, they have got to be better.

Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor. me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear.

Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicalif 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.