There Are No Girls on the Internet - Sex workers know the future of the internet w/ Dr. Olivia Snow

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

When it comes to what’s next in technology and the internet, we’d all benefit from listening to sex workers. Dr. Olivia Snow, dominatrix and researcher at UCLA’s Center for Critical Internet Inquiry, explains why people who engage in sex work have been right about the internet all along.    ‘Magic Avatar’ App Lensa Generated Nudes From My Childhood Photos: https://www.wired.com/story/lensa-artificial-intelligence-csem/ Are You Ready to Be Surveilled Like a Sex Worker? https://www.wired.com/story/roe-abortion-sex-worker-policy/   WANT TO SUPPORT THE SHOW AND GET AD FREE CONTENT? SUBSCRIBE ON PATREON AT PATREON.COM/TANGOTI See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and get ad-free bonus content. Just go to patreon.com slash tangoity. And thanks so much. As someone who thinks about the intersection of gender, sex, and technology, where do you think we are headed? To hell. There are No Girls on the Internet

as a production of IHeartRadio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. People who engage in sex work face hostility online. But they're also the ones who remain at the forefront of understanding technology, the internet, and the role that it plays in all of our lives. From increased online surveillance and legislation like Sesta Foster, it's people who engage in sex work who are often sounding the alarm

about how online harms might start by targeting one community like sex workers, but will later manifest for all of us. So in conversations about the future of the internet and technology, it's critical that all marginalized voices, including sex workers, are included. My name is Olivia Snow. I am a dominatrix and a research fellow at UCLA's Center for Critical Internet Inquiry. Olivia studies sex work, technology, and policy, and writes about it on the Internet. She's been dached and harassed online for it, too.

But that hasn't stopped her from centering sex workers in conversations about the Internet and technology. So something that I love about your work is that you really lean into and interrogate this intersection of sex work and technology in the Internet. What does that been like? Why do you think it is so important for people who care about the internet and technology to understand how sex workers show up on the internet, how sex workers use technology? And how has that been sort of prescient about where we're headed next? I feel like sex workers are sort of like they know what the fuck is happening on the internet and where we're going. Shit that like, it's like they are constantly calling stuff correctly. how is that?

I remember I was on the subway home from work at like three in the morning and I was going through I think Facebook and on my people you may know all of my coworkers were on there and like we never we didn't know each other's real names like I don't want to know

any other sex workers real names especially if we're in like a double session you know I don't want to be like mistress Megan or whatever if her name's like Emerald or something so I was like oh my God Facebook is boxing me like doxing on my cook? I mean, I guess not doxing because doxing means with malicious intent, but

well, maybe, but still. And, you know, it was obvious like, okay, like we're in close physical proximity. We're sharing the same like Wi-Fi network. Like a big sense that, you know, we're together 12 hours a day. But, you know, that's when I started really, I don't know, noticing how harmful just like being on the internet is, even if you're, or having a cell phone, even back in like the 90s and the early thousands for getting their bank accounts closed for doing sex work, which like, like how did they know? You know, even like before cell phones, like, how the fuck would like Chase Bank know that the money you're depositing is from sex work?

And like, try, like, okay, you know, if you're depositing a certain amount of money and a certain like size of bill at a certain ATM at a certain time, then like you're either selling drugs or you're selling sex. Yeah, I've read your piece about, or I've read pieces about, like, being, today, being banned from platforms like Venmo or even Grub, or it's like, I'm just trying to get a chicken sandwich. Like, I'm just trying to get lunch. And I guess I wonder, is there a lot of the people that I talk to on this show, they are marginalized people who have been raising the alarms about things on the internet. And oftentimes it's like, this harm is going to impact a marginalized group and then it's going to impact everybody. Is there a vibe that

you feel where it's like a constant kind of, I told you so, or a constant kind of like, I hate to be right all the time where folks engaged in sex work are like constantly talking about these increased levels of surveillance and digital judgment and have been kind of for a while. Oh, absolutely. And like, you know, I used to really love being like, I told you so because I'm like kind of an asshole. But like I don't love it now. I hate it. I'm working on an article right now where like canary in the coal mine is the metaphor that's usually used. But like that depends on the minor actually listening to the canary and getting the fuck out of the mind. It doesn't happen.

It's more of a like Cassandra kind of situation where we're like, and you know, people like they were making it up. So like I got banned from DoorDash about a year ago. And I tweeted about it. It went like semi-viral. And a bunch of sex workers in my replies like, oh my God, this happened to me. Like what the fuck? And then a bunch of non-sex workers. were like, well, I don't know. How are you sure? Like, maybe it was something else. Like, did you

violate terms of service or whatever? Um, and, you know, like, it was abundantly obvious to me, because I've also been, you know, I've been kicked off Benma. I've been kicked off cash up. I've been kicked off Field, which is weird because that's like a kink site. I'm like, oh, really? I've been kicked off Tinder. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, like, it's, like, Like a bunch of, my TikTok account has been suspended, like, I think twice. And I've never even posted anything on TikTok ever, like, at all. So it's clear to me that there's some type of data sharing happening, whether it's, you know, that you're alwayscing device, whether, you know, other, whatever details. I don't know.

I'm not the kind of doctor. But, you know, an algorithmic sweep of high risk accounts, then sex workers are going to get caught up in it. which like, I mean, also I feel like responses, at least my personally losing DoorDash, was kind of like, like, oh, well, I'll make you a new account or like, how can I send you a sandwich? And I'm like, no, that's not the point. The point is that like fucking DoorDash is like somehow privy to this information. It's frustrating, I guess. I mean, and I don't know if it's necessarily gaslighting because like I guess people really. do believe that I'm, you know, making it up or whatever. Or like, this can't be true. You know, DoorDash isn't. Well, actually, no, DoorDash. I remember when this went viral and the New York Post reached out to DoorDash. They were like, no, we would never. So that's gaslighting. But yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, yeah, it's frustrating. It's one of those things that people really have to listen to and center marginalized people. Sex workers are very much included when you're thinking about the future of the internet. And so much of your work. is like speaks to that and looks to that and like, you know, when we're thinking about the kind of

internet that we want to have, making sure that those voices are centered. Like, you know, when we have legislation, like the Kids Online Safety Act that, you know, has so much bipartisan support, when you hear things like, oh, this is a law to legislate the internet in order to protect kids. Protect kids. What goes to your mind? Like, what do you think when you hear stuff like that? I mean, you know, if you were to ask me that question, years ago, I'd be like, we should protect kids. Like, literally nobody, at least nobody in Congress gives a single shit about protecting kids. I'm like, half these people were on like the Epstein book. Like, they do not care. It's clearly like a smokescreen for increased surveillance

to me. Like, that's all I think at this point. I do not believe anyone. I mean, I mean, we've seen it, you know, in other sectors, like the, like, rising humble. that I personally haven't seen since like 2004. That's also, you know, protecting kids from like groomers or whatever the fuck. You know, it's just I don't even think that that people making those claims at this point are doing it. Like, I don't think they're doing in good faith, period. You know, this is always, and you know, it's not necessarily about sex workers. But yeah, this is always about increased surveillance.

They do not care about kids. If they care about kids, they'd be working on guns. Are they working on guns? No. So, like, that's, yeah, it's, and it keeps working. I'm like, guys. Also, like, I mean, I know I'm, like, relatively quite privileged. Like, I'm a white woman with a PhD. Like, that's pretty high up there. And I often get pushback that's like, like, you're a privileged white woman with a PhD. I'm like, well, yeah, exactly. And you're still not listening. Like, I mean, imagine if I weren't, like, then we wouldn't even be having this argument because you wouldn't, like, deign to bother with me. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audience. across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com.

That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

At our back. Roe versus Wade was overturned almost a year ago. And since then, we've all had to navigate what online privacy really means when simply accessing information online about abortion can be used as evidence to put people behind bars. Now, this is something that sex workers know all too well. That same vast network of online surveillance and criminalization used to target sex workers also threatens people who need abortions. In a piece for wire called,

Are You Ready to Be Surveiled like a Sex Worker? Olivia points out that this post-row world is simply the next step in a larger campaign to expand state surveillance and erode the right to privacy, a campaign that sex workers have been fighting for decades. Do you see a connection between sex work and abortion rights as it pertains to the Internet and the way it's legislated?

Oh, yeah. I mean, just like the ways that they're tracked. like, okay, so this is going to be an underground economy. You're going to have to use cash. They're also going to be monitoring how you use cash. You know, your, like, geolocation will be weaponized. You know, like facial recognition technology at, like, traffic stops might be used to identify you. Like, shit that you thought was private isn't in a lot of the same ways.

If not, like, almost all of the same ways. And I mean, it's all just, you know, trying to restrict what women do with their bodies. You know, like, regardless of if that, you know, is the actual outcome, I think that's the intent. On one hand, on the other hand, I'm like, I also don't care what the intent is because it's like, I don't want to waste my time being like, but why is fascism? Like, like, not the point. But yeah, no, I see them as entirely connected. I mean, same with the, like, anti-trans legislation. Like, it's all about restricting what people do with their own bodies.

It feels like we're in a much more dire place. Because the last time that, you know, before, like in the 70s before Roe was the law of the land, we didn't have this, like, vast surveillance network. We all didn't carry GPS devices in our pockets. And I feel like one of the. the ways that we're kind of worse off today is that there has been this sort of piece by piece tacit in like normalization of that. But I think that we have this relationship with tech companies that like it's fine that they surveil us. And actually maybe it's good. Like I have

nothing to hide. I'm never going to do anything wrong. Like, you know, where we don't even think about it anymore. Like when Ring released that show that was like, Ring Nation, funny videos that you get from your Ving camera. I think that's meant to, I think it is meant to signal to us that, like, this vast surveillance is actually good because it creates funny moments that you get to watch on TV,

so you shouldn't really think that critically about it. Right. No, and I mean, I think that's also tied up with, like, the way that, like, I've been calling it, like, the clout economy kind of works where, I mean, thank God I didn't tweet in 2013. I think I had Twitter.

I didn't, but, like, You know, like stupid shit, but like, you know, whatever, we've all said stupid shit that we don't need to have on the internet. That just kind of like follows. It also makes me think of like the GDPR. Like there's no right to be forgotten anymore. There's no grace. If you, I don't know, do something stupid. And you know, everything is so bad faith in a way.

I myself barely show up on. on social media because I don't want to deal with it. Like I, obviously there's like egregious cases. But like for the most part, you know, you and I are the same age. We like, we have grown up online. And so like we were, we were products of our age, products of our environment, products of like the social, political climate of the time. I don't think this is the internet landscape that we want. I don't think it's the internet landscape that actually fosters things like good faith, disagreements,

It's conversation, learning, you know, fucking up in public and being like, oh, I'm, you know, I messed up. I learned something. I don't think we have an internet climate that welcomes any of that. It's just a ocean of bad faith attacks that you have to like, like a minefield that you have to navigate through, not something that you can actually show up to, you know, learn something. And like we're living in this fascist hellscape. Like, of course it makes sense that you want to, you know, unleash that rage somewhere. Some people are very committed to weaponizing anything. And you're someone who is quite visible on social media.

As we're in this weird place with Musk owning Twitter, how is it impacted how you show up on Twitter as someone who was so visible? Well, you know, I recently went face out maybe like two or three weeks ago after like long discussions with my therapist. But like, you know, there are so many for until I got dachs, I was meticulous. I was meticulous about not even sharing my time zone, not saying anything about the weather, not saying if I was taking like a train or a bus or a car or maybe I would like say I was taking a car because I don't own one anymore. So that people wouldn't be able to track me down and at a certain point, you know, it's horrifying to be dogs obviously. Like I've had to move twice. But like my parents found my dogs, which is why I haven't like spoken to them in what over a year now, which was kind of a blessing in disguise because like fuck those two people. want to say like liberating because it's not it's horrible but um knowing that there is nothing

you can hide like or yeah we were saying like oh i don't need to hide anything like no i actually do need to hide a lot of things like my address and how i make money um but having that um just kind of pulled from you i feel like um it doesn't make things easier but it like there's a whole level there's a whole thought process that I would have to go through to be like oh did I like erase the metadata? Did I crop out the time zone? You know that I don't need to do anymore and that's weirdly well I guess not weirdly but that's you know it freed up a lot of mental energy I didn't realize I was expending.

Yeah I mean I don't share anything that is like truly. personal, like in a meaningful way with the internet, because I, I don't have it in me, I feel. Like, I feel like there's a cost, particularly for women, particularly for women who are engaged in sex work. I think there's a cost that is, that other people don't have to carry to being someone who's visible online. But what's, you know, what's most difficult for me, I think, is that like, you know, if they want to, like, expose my shit, like, whatever, go ahead. but the people close to me like my grandfather for instance or like partners, ex-partners,

friends like but I mean my partner was doused and I still don't know how those motherfuckers figured out that I was dating period let alone who I was dating excuse me and you know

that too was just fucking horrifying but also made me think you know like the person I'm dating now is able to deal with them horror more than like some of my exes that I'm still friends with. And, you know, having to just carry the burden of protecting other people's safety and other people's privacy when my own has been just taken is a lot. But I mean, that's like, like that's how it works. It's never just the woman. It's her partner. It's her mom. It's her community. Like, that's part of the

way that this kind of harassment functions. It's like, I'm not going to just come after you. I'm going to make everybody, I'm going to make there be a cost for anybody associating with you in your community. Right. Or like when I've done like panels, or you'll probably get this. When you upload this and like, however many weeks or whatever, people will be like, so I just wanted to let you know that Dr. Olivia Snow is actually a fascist. And then probably like send you some deranged Twitter friends, like, about how I'm, I don't know, like, drinking baby's blood, because that's not. Yeah, I mean, I don't, like, I have gotten, I hope this doesn't sound weird.

I have gotten only once, a DM from somebody I didn't know, just so you know you're following this person who was like, kicks puppies, kills babies. And I didn't reply, because I have a blanket rule. I don't engage with that. If you're going to tell me that someone was violent toward you or something, that totally different story. Right. I don't engage with this attitude of how can I cut this person down by making them lose followers

on Twitter. I'm not going to engage with it. Not interested at all. You know, years ago, I might have been like, oh, that's fucked up. I won't follow them or whatever. But, you know, now having had these. Well, I mean, you know, years ago, I guess I didn't have the visibility on Twitter that I have now.

So I guess it's kind of a new point. But like, you know, unless you're telling me that, yeah, like you said, like that someone was violent to you specifically, or you can give me some, like, concrete shit that I can look at and be like, oh, wow, Jesus Christ. Right. And, yeah, and even then, you know, if it's something from, like, a tweet that's taken out of context from 10 years ago, like, that's, I just, this is what you're spending your time on? Really? Exactly.

Like, I am not in the business of, like, legislating people's online grievances. This is, like, I'm, and I think it makes the internet worse for everyone when that's how people, perceive it when that's how people engage with it. You know what I mean? Yeah. I find that people tend to reach out to other marginalized people specifically to try to warn them that I'm, you know, sexist or homophobic or transva, whatever the fuck.

In a way, like, knowing that I am a part of a lot of these communities that they're trying to just sever me from. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get,

your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's IHeart, Advertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight reel. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Let's get right back into it. Last month, Elon Musk overhauled Twitter's verification system. and ramped up Twitter Blue, the $8 a month subscription service that gives users access to perks like being able to post longer tweets and videos, and giving the tweets of subscribers increased visibility. Thinking that anybody who spends money on Twitter Blue is financially supporting Elon Musk, in response, there was a short-lived campaign to block anyone with a blue checkmark. Now, Twitter is pretty much the only mainstream social media platform that will sort of allow sex workers to show up there.

adult content is not explicitly banned on Twitter like it is on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. And since some of the perks of Twitter Blue, like being able to post longer videos, could be good marketing for sex workers, it kind of makes sense that many of them would choose to stick around on the platform and pay for Twitter Blue, even if it's not an endorsement of Elon Musk or the way he runs the platform. So a campaign to block anyone with a blue checkmark on site is hostile to a community of people who already face digital hostages. all over the internet. Thinking about Twitter and your relationship to it, when they rolled out the like Twitter blue subscription,

there was a whole campaign of like block people with blue checkmarks. But then it was like, you know, there's Twitter, it seems to be a platform where a lot of sex workers do show up for their businesses to make money. And so if you're blocking all of them, like you're not really, you're not, you feel like maybe you're getting one over on Elon Musk, but who you're actually harming. is sex workers who need, you know, to make livings. And people are like, oh, you're giving $8 to a fascist.

I'm like, do you know how much money this motherfucker has? $8 is a drop in the book? Like, really? Really? Like, ridiculous. One of the reasons I'm so active on Twitter is it's the only platform that tolerate sex workers. Instagram, that hates us.

I mean, I'm not on Facebook, period. I think I deactivated when I noticed that like all my coworkers are getting shocked. TikTok, obviously, like, I don't even use it and I'm not allowed on it. So, yeah, no, Twitter is the one platform where we can exist as sex workers and not have to worry about getting booted at the drop of a hat. I mean, we still have to worry about getting booted kind of at the drop of the hat, but it's like slightly less bad. But, yeah, no, and I mean, like, it turns out, I think that the Twitter blue subscription that like a lot of sex workers were getting didn't end up being that profitable, probably in large part, because of the mass blocking, which of course, like algorithmically, each block de-boosts your visibility by, you know, however many points. I've had people reach out to me to be like, oh, so-and-so is

dangerous or whatever. And in almost every case, it's been trans women. Wow. And like, are they dangerous? Or do y'all really hate trans women? Because, like, they're not. They're a pattern here and the pattern is not that's dangerous. Like so, you know, with the block the blue thing, you know, like, are you really worried that people are giving money to a fascist? Like, what is he like the second richest person on the planet now? Like really? Yeah. Yeah, like this is what you're going after and you're not trying to get, I don't know, like the IRS to collect some of the money. Like really, this is your priority. Um, and like it, are you fighting fascism? I'm like, do you just keep black workers? I mean, it's fast. I mean, it's

Like, even if it's not based in hating sex workers, which likely a lot of it is, I think it's also about like not thinking about sex workers, not like being able to see sex workers as people whose perspectives matter who you want to have a right to show up on an online space. Right. Or like who are you okay with me in collateral damage? That's such a good way to put it. I think that's exactly it. That like, well, they don't really matter. Right, or like, well, we can't just, you know, stop fighting fascism so that sex workers can live. Like, you're not fighting fascism in the first place. But beside the point, you know, like, you're just undermining your own point, number one. But like, I don't. When Olivia is asked how we build a safer internet, she bristles.

How can we have a truly safer internet when it's worn from a society that is often not safe? as Dr. Sophia Noble, author of algorithms of oppression, a groundbreaking work that confirm that search engines are built with the same old race and gender biases baked into their algorithms, has noted. Technology is not neutral. It reflects the same dynamics that exist in society and the biases of people who create them. And this is pretty clear when it comes to AI. Back when the AI image generator, Lensa, was taking over everyone's social media feed,

Olivia found that the program generated non-consensual sexualized images of her, even from images of her as a child. And she sees the way that this will be used to harass, especially harass people who are already marginalized online, like women of color, children, queer folks, and sex workers. She writes, This horror story that I just narrated sounds too dystopian to be a real threat. But as I have also learned through my own endlessly revolving door of cyberstalkers,

no amount of exonerating evidence is sufficient to quell a harassment campaign. Coordinated harassment is already unfathomably effective in silencing marginalized voices, especially those of sex workers, queer people, and black women, without AI-generated revenge porn. And while the technology may not be sophisticated enough to produce convincing deep fakes now, it will be soon. Your photos will be used to train the AI that will create magic avatars for you, and for only $399 a pop.

You talked about how Lensa, like, it not, like, non-consensually sexualizes people, even, like, images of them as children. And so I guess my question is, like, what do you think about this time that we're in where everybody is talking about AI, it seems like, if you scroll Apple Podcasts, the tech charts, every podcast is about AI, we're having so many conversations about how quickly it is developing and how it's going to change everything, blah, blah, blah, blah. do you like like as someone who thinks about the intersection of gender sex and technology where do you think we are headed to hell directly to hell I mean with that like you know with that Lenza piece I didn't reach out to Lenza because I didn't even yeah I'm not trained as a journalist so I'm just kind of like I don't know I don't have a transcript of the interview you're sorry. But I didn't reach out to them, but I think Jezebel did.

And they were like, hey, what do you think of this? It's like, it's creating, you know, child sexual exploitation material. And Lensla's response was something like, well, that person should look into the laws in their jurisdiction. And they're always like kind of de-gendering me. Like that person, they, them. And I'm like, I have a name. And whatever. anyway and you know because they might be uh like subject to certain penalties for creating

this uh like the problem child sexual quotation they create like you didn't create it right yeah and they're like well we have a policy that says no photos of kids and I'm like uh like even even if I wasn't so the reason I even thought to put in those childhood photos is because I was just like doing experiments like digging around and I had So I first ran it with like just random picture with myself. And I thought that the results were like kind of like I was like, oh, they're pretty neat. And you know, knowing that my face has been like circulated without my consent.

I'm like, I don't get what they're going to have my face. Oh no. And then I ran it a second time using like pictures where I thought I looked hot. And that was where it was creating nudes, not consentually. And you know, nudes being another. thing that you weren't supposed to submit to it. Right. So I ran it again. And did you, did you run it? No. Once I asked for money, I was like, fuck that. I tweeted. I was like, someone said me $3.99. So there were three different gender options was, I think, female, male, and I want to say other.

Right. So I ran it through the female one like twice. I ran it through the male one and I'm thinking like, well, like, did me like a beard or something. And it did maybe on like two pictures. but the rest, it was just still, like, hypersexual, just in, like, slightly different ways. And then I ran it on the, like, other gender option. And it made me look like a child. You know, I was, like, uploading pictures of, like, me not, like, in my mid-30s. And it spit out pictures where I looked like a teenager. And I think it was because the algorithm, which I just, like, hate saying, like, as a, like, the, like, that sounds the Illuminati, but, like, the algorithm, um, its way of understanding.

like not male, not female is just like totally desexualized and like infantilized, which is, you know, why I suspect that it, you know, made my adult face and body and look like that of which, well, not body, but face looks like that of a child. I think of like, like, Safia nobles algorithms of oppression, right? that like the internet reflects back our absolute worst tendencies and not just because people are bigger dickheads on the internet than they are in real life. Though that, you know, certainly doesn't help things. That like, you know, what's getting, like, the input to the internet is like what are,

like the biases that our culture actually has. and our culture, like our society, our societies are disgusting. We are racist, we're sexist, we're homophobic. We're like, we're awful as just a species. And the internet, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, make value judgments. It just recognizes patterns. And what it's going to spit back out at us, especially with machine learning algorithms. that are trying to, you know, tell us what they think we want to hear is going to be, like, the absolute worst stereotypes. So, you know, once I'm like sexualizing women, like, well, yeah, of course it did.

Because we are a disgusting society that sexualizes women and children. Yeah, and it's sad for me because I think there was definitely a time where, like, AI is so powerful that it, I would imagine that it can reimagine worlds where those kinds of harmful, like, stereotypes and racism, sexism, fatphobia, transphobia, all of that. I would imagine a world, I would like to imagine a world where it is not just simply recreating these things and reestablishing these things. But I feel like it's so clear that that's not, that's not, it'd be a nice fantasy, but that's not what we're getting.

Right. Well, and like, you know, there are some, like, some systems or features, like, some content moderation in place that, you know, prevents, like, just straight up slurs popping up in something like Chad GBT. But that, I mean, that's obviously a band-aid. That's not going to, like, just like all the micro-rogressions inherent in all of this shit. And, you know, I'm thinking, I was asked a few months ago to give a talk on, like, how to have a safer, internet and I remember pink like what that is a ridiculous question because you cannot have a safer internet until we have a safer society because the internet is just a reflection of that then intensified so like sure you can create some kind of AI to identify and take down like child sexual exploitation material but is that going to keep kids safe no like not at all you know like I yeah and it's funny because you know your experience with lens up with them saying well, you could be facing, you know, some sort of punishment.

And it's like even if Lensa, the app, even if the tool has a rule against uploading pictures of children, if there's no safeguard, if you're allowed, if you're able to do it in what way is it really a rule, right? If you can just do it and still get those images, how is it a rule? If there's no safeguards. Right. And with them, I was like, I'm not, you know, writing this to like embarrass you. it's not like a gotcha. It's like, hey, this is violent. Maybe you should work on making it less violent. And of course, the response is like, let's be more violent. Like, I'm not trying to, you know,

like ruin your business model. I'm trying to be like, hey, guys, this is actually really dangerous. This is really dangerous. Maybe we should work on making it less dangerous. And just, you know, I get being defensive. You know, I'm like, I've certainly been accused of being like, you know, a trafficker or whatever on Twitter because everyone's a fucking idiot. Like, no one likes getting that, you know, pointed out to them, especially in a public forum. But like,

you're like missing the forest through the trees here. Yeah. Are you concerned about things like AI generated deep fakes and like a marketplace for that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The only thing that makes me, that gives me some faint, horrifying glimmer of hope is that

that technology is just becoming more and more widely available. And I wonder if like deep fake revenge porn will just become so ubiquitous that the like first response will be like, oh, that's deep fake revenge porn instead of like, oh, that's real. Right. Yeah, it's. Oh, absolutely. And I mean, it's already become a problem. See, I remember in that once a piece, I wrote something like, like, you know, with like in four to six months. fake revenge porn is going to be everywhere. And then like, lo and behold, four months later,

they're like streamers and shit, just getting harassed with this. And, you know, revenge porn is interesting too. And I think this goes back to like why people like fucking with sex workers and just like marginalized people in general. Is that like it's not necessarily, it's not physically violent. You're not like punching someone in the face. You're, you're, you know, but you are. I mean, and even beyond like, damaging their reputation and damaging their career, the like psychological warfare of some of this shit, where it's just a constant environment of fear, not even of what you're actually doing, but not even what like you could be perceived as doing. I mean, I see very little

benefit to AI, if any, considering its potential for harm. Yeah. I personally have a little bit of trouble wrapping my head around all the different conversations about AI. What is PR? What is true? What is like doomism? What is marketing? Where do you think? How do you think AI is going to shape the experience of marginalized people 10 years down the line? I mean, I think that like there are some things AI is like actually good at and it's like stupid mundane office shit. Like I need to come up with a course description for a class. I've just, and I've been meeting to just get on chat GPT and be like, hi chat gvete you give me a course description for blah blah blah and then you know like tweak it or whatever but like you know writing like mundane emails and shit like i i can't even imagine the number of hours i spent in

grad school thinking like should i sign it with best or sincerely like that kind of shit you know i think is is good for but you know i cannot imagine without um without really without restriction, what will, like, I, I, I, maybe I could, but I like, don't want to, you know, like, um, you know, I don't think that AI, I know AI is not sentient. I think that's a ridiculous argument. Um, but the way that some of this gets coded gives AI, not the agency, but like doesn't restrict it from doing like wildly harmful shit. Um, and, you know, I, I really can't see a function society if AI continues at the pace that it is. I mean, and of course that like rests on the assumption that we're currently in a functioning society, which like is questionable.

I know I really can't think of how that could possibly be a reality that anyone could live in. I mean, we're in this very weird moment in technology right now. Platforms feel weird. the future of platforms feel weird. All this AI stuff feels weird. Fuck Elon Musk. Fuck you on Musk. Fuck him forever. What the fuck.

I know. It is bad. I mean, just like the people I know personally who worked at Twitter who had like their entire lives upended and like lots of livelihoods. I mean, you know, which is such a like minor piece in the puzzle of like how he has fucked up the entire fucking internet. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, when we're thinking about going forward like why do you feel it's so important to And like, why is it so important to make sure that the voices of sex workers are, like, really at the forefront when we're thinking about the future of the internet and the future of tech? Well, I mean, so sex workers, A, have to be on top of tech because we're, like, one of the first things in any term of terms of service is, you know, no sex adjacent anything. Like, like, thanks Fossa Sesta. You know, we're going to fight prostitution or whatever by making sure that, like, you know, a dominator. can't get a burrito. Right. Yeah.

Good job. Yeah. So we already have to, you know, like sex workers on the whole are a lot more familiar with like internet privacy and like how to use VPN and how to use like cryptocurrencies and shit. So like, I mean that that's the one. But the other B being like sex workers are consistently the most loathed and dehumanized people like.

period. Like I think of like no humans involved what that has referred to. It's been what was it? How did Sylvia Winter put it? I think it was like black boys without jobs. Undocumented people I want to say and sex workers.

And we're so consistently dehumanized. We're not seen as people. If we are seen as people, then it's only for like sadistic purposes that we are seen as such. and we are you know we're perceived as a safety threat

so to keep ourselves safe we have to you know be take these I want to say like see almost bizarre measures to like stay safe in an environment that perceives

our existence as a threat and you know I think what I think is unique to sex workers in that respect is having to be because like a step ahead of the curve and that like or like actually being specifically prohibited by policy because you know there are all kinds of demographics that are fully dehumanized but um you know sex workers aren't seen as like I guess like a demographic you know I've been trying to like theorize this where like the internet kind of makes sex work like a fixed identity

like even if you're not doing sex work you're still a sex worker um and you know especially with the way that that like search engines and shit go are, you know, I don't know if I would still be in sex work if I hadn't been docks by my full name, which is ethnic as shit. I'm the only one on the planet with this goofy-ass Polish name.

I don't know if I'd still be doing it. But at this point, I'm like, it's kind of a waste if, you know, why would I be applying for academic jobs in fucking literature when they're going to Google me and find out that, you know, I was a dominatrix in 2019? I might as well be making money off of that. that because, you know, now I'm always going to be a dominatrix. Like, that is always going to be

online. The way that, like, sex workers work, too, has been kind of like misunderstood and misapplied, which, you know, sex workers work means that or should mean that sex workers deserve labor protections, like any other worker or workplace safety protections. Or, like, sex workers should, you know, he experienced violence should be able to, you know, report that and be protected for it, or from it. Um, but it's, Instead, I feel like the popular view is like, sex work is just another job, like working at, like, the mall, which means I can treat sex workers as terribly as I treat other low wage workers. No, that is not it. Like, no.

Yeah, and like, well, why don't you just get another job? And like, that's not what, you know. And I get like, I think it's hard to, to communicate that, you know, like, Horphobia is kind of like an amalgamation of all these other, like, biases or like matrices of oppression. And that like the stigma is so bad that in almost every scenario, you're not going to turn to sex work unless you have exhausted every other option, which is why, you know, sex workers are usually like working class or poor or women of color or trans people think that sex work or like horophobia is something you can like opt out of or like you could just quit being a sex worker versus like I can't quit being like a Jewish woman. But like no you can't actually like even if I wanted to no one will let me. And I don't know I think that that kind of nebulousness of sex worker as an identity also makes us such like.

a ripe test population, I guess, for this kind of shit. I saw this headline maybe like a week or so ago, and it was like the FBI or the, you know, Secret Service or whatever misused some surveillance technology that was supposed to identify January 6th writers, which sign note was my worst birthday. No, your birthday is January 6th? No. Whomp. Wompe.

Olivia. But it was like, surveillance technology meant to identify January 6th fighters was used against Black Lives Matter organizers. And like, I think it said like misused. I'm like, was it misused? Because I think that's why it was made. I think that was the point of the tech. It's a feature, not a bug.

Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, these few demographics, I think Black Lives Matter gets, is more visible than sex worker, like obviously. Maybe not obviously. I don't know. And no one's going to argue like, you could just opt out of being black. Right. Yeah.

But I don't know. As far as voices that are like a threat to, I don't want to say social order. But or hegemony. I don't even know what word I'm trying to think of. I know what you mean. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that these voices that kind of threaten the status quo are intentionally the most marginalized

and therefore need to be amplified all that more. You know, I was thinking, I was in this workshop maybe like two weeks ago and everyone was talking about center marginalized voices, center marginalized voices. I'm like, okay, but the thing about marginalized voices is that they are marginalized. Which means no one wants to believe them and no one's going to listen. Like, you can say center marginalized voices all you want,

but like, does that mean that people are actually going to listen to those voices you're centering? No. So, you know, I don't know how to push back on that exactly other than yelling on the internet, which I do a lot of. Well, I always end my interviews with asking when it comes to the state of the internet and technology, are you hopeful? Do you have any hope? And if so, what is it that gives you hope? Is it a hard no? Yes. You know, I... okay so one thing that does kind of give me hope and this maybe sounds like I was in this workshop that was just the marginalized voices one I was just describing like I was invited

to this workshop to work to work on AI policy and you know figure out what to do going forward and it was sponsored by the MacArthur Foundation and right I'm like hmm like you're like right I say nice hotel for free but the fact that they're inviting a sex worker at all to something like that.

And it wasn't with me and then, I mean, as far as like people you wouldn't expect to see at these kind of events. And I think there were two, like a formerly incarcerated person and another similar organizer who was invited. But the fact that some voices, like, the most privilege of the marginalized are getting listened to a little bit, makes me think that's a step in maybe the right direction. Because, you know, I don't think that's something that was happening 10 years ago. Yeah, take the hope where you can get it. Yeah, that's, you know, my one faint glimmer is that. And, like, of course, I don't, and I, like, always try to, like, I always try to, like,

when I say like, well, it gives me hope that I specifically am being listened to it. Like, no, it's not about like me specifically or about sex workers specifically because, you know, at the end of the day, this is all going to affect everyone. So, you know, the fact that somehow these like more vulnerable silence voices are getting heard just a little bit, I think is hopefully excited for the stuff in the right direction. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com.

There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app,

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