There Are No Girls on the Internet - She shaped the early days of the internet. Now she’s making it even better.

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Denise Duncan has worked in technology since the very beginning of the internet. Now, as the head for project management for Project Liberty, an initiative of Unfinished Labs, she uses tech to build a web that’s more inclusive and open. Hear more from technologists, journalists, artists, and changemakers using ethical tech to build a fairer economy and a stronger democracy at Unfinished Live, happening in-person at The Shed in New York City, and virtually on September 23rd and 24th, where we’ll be doing our first ever LIVE taping of There Are No Girls on the Internet. Go to live.unfinished.com and use promo code TANGOTI  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than adds supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business.

Call 844-844-I-Hart. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline.

And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So when I first started getting really into the Internet, I always assumed that I was an outlier. I never really saw imagery of women, let alone Black women, taking up a lot of space online.

And all the movies and media I saw about people who were really into the Internet in those days were all men. And a specific kind of man at that, you know, nerdy and almost always white. So the story I let myself believe was that women and people of color and queer folks, all of us. We were all fighting to break into this industry that was pretty much a boys club. It wasn't until much later that I realized that story I'd been telling myself, it was wrong. We'd always been there. From the earliest days of computing and the Internet and Technology, marginalized folks were at the forefront, doing the work of making it better. Now, this realization allowed for a complete shift in my thinking.

Technology in the Internet, it's our rightful domain. And even if our stories are not always told or appreciated, or worse, if they're intentionally left out of the narrative, we're still here, taking up space. And we have been from the very beginning. Women like Denise Duncan are exactly who I'm talking about. Denise has been working in tech since the earliest days of the internet. And today, she's still there, working to make sure the internet is equitable and inclusive. Denise has had a front row seat to how the internet has changed over the years. And voices like hers can help us understand where it's going next. So, you know, as a black woman in tech, what of your experience has been like?

Like, first of all, like, what brought you to this work in general? Like, how did you get here? I started working in tech in 96. I started building websites kind of like as soon as you could make a living building websites. I got a, I got an internship with a, with an organization called Xorg, which was. was a consortium that ran a UI for Linux called X Windows. And it was like an incredible place. Like the people there were so nerdy. And like a bunch of the people who worked there, like went on to work at W3C, you know.

Like, like, and they, okay, so this was 96. At that time, they were experimenting with cloud computing. Like they, I saw an experiment of somebody. running windows and Word on one machine and using it on another one in 1996, right? Like they already like made that leap at that time, right? Which is incredible. And I studied physics when I was in school. And like I said, I got involved like at the very, very beginning of the internet.

So at my like work-study job, I spent a lot of time browsing the web. You know, like, and it was Netscape 1, you know. We actually used something called links, I think, which was like a text-based browser. And like, let me just go, like, I'll geek out a little bit more. We, I actually like a whole foray, foray into kind of like the internet and the web was using gopher and Archie, which were like precursors to the web. like Archie would allow you to search a bunch of different archives and stuff for files and everything. And Gofer was like almost like the web, but it was very highly structured.

So you had to like go through all these menus and stuff, right? So anyway, like at my job. So I used like Archie and Gofer for school and stuff. And at my job, I started playing around with Netscape because my boss was like she discovered the internet and the web because she was a, um, she would go coupon shopping, right? And like even at that time, like she was finding deals and deals. Anyway, I started playing around with it and I just realized like, you know, it was very easy to actually figure out how it all worked.

Like building a web page just took like looking at the source in the browser and working it out from there. So, you know, I was kind of like at this place where I was like, okay, I studied physics. I'm pretty sure I don't want to become a research. scientist, what am I going to do with this? So I got that internship at X-org and like, um, that the rest is history to some extent. So you, you know, you talked a little bit about sort of, you know, seeing all this wild stuff like the, the early cloud computing and all of that. And you talked about how it was sort of all this geeky, nerdy stuff. Did you feel like, I have found my people when you were doing this early internet work, were you like, I have found my

people? Or did you feel like this is what I want to be doing, but showing up here as myself in this space feels fraught? Like, what were the feelings like being at the forefront of the internet in this way? Oh, wow, that's such an interesting question. And I've never really thought about that. I think in a lot of ways, I did feel like these are my people. Because I think in those early days, like, let me say this. I think the internet changed completely around 2007, 2008, when the iPhone came around, right? I think before that, it was a really different universe where it was kind of populated by geeks and nerds who just vibed on being geeks and nerds together, right? And like, it didn't matter.

I know the type. It was just like, we're cool because, like, you know, yeah we're cool because like we're going on alt dot whatever and checking out you know melvin songs or uh d and d tips together or whatever right so like there was and there was all of this experimentation like there were so many sites that were just like nonsense or like weird art projects and stuff like that and so i did feel like i found my people because like i was i'm all about that like Like, just like creating for creating's sake. And, you know, there's like such a short feedback loop, especially with the web at that time, like building a web page. Like, you just saw stuff instantly, right? So it was really good, like, creative medium.

I think, like I'll tell you about my first paying job that I got was a place called the internet company that literally owned the domain internet.com. we used to get okay so we had like help at internet dot com right every once in a while we get like an awesome one like hey internet

where's the porn at oh my gosh and the guys that I worked with there like so I think like two or three of the guys who founded the internet company were in like the Boston, Phoenix, like their free paper there, like the who's who of the internet at that time. So they like understood what was coming and they owned all they like one of the guys in

my office owned the domain god.com. Right. So another funny story. Like somebody wrote him as like dear God and you're a guitarist from my band and he wrote back and he was like, sorry, I play bass. I love it. I mean, it does sort of, you sort of get the sense that these were folks who, like you said, they knew what was coming and they were really putting down infrastructure, camping out in domain names that they knew were going to be big. And so you really had a front seat to a lot of that early architecture of what we know as the internet. Because she had such a foundational role of building out the earliest architecture of what the internet would eventually become, Denise feels a real sense. sends a responsibility to work to make it better, which drove over to Project Liberty, an initiative of unfinished labs that tries to transform how the internet works and who benefits from the digital economy by creating new civic architecture for our digital world. At Project Liberty, Denise uses blockchain, a digital ledger of transactions that allow for digital information to be recorded and distributed to build civic technology to imagine the next generation of the web, one that

serves people, not platforms. That's actually why, like, what attracted me to the project to Project Liberty is because, like, I was there. And, you know, in all honesty, like, I feel some responsibility for where we've ended up, right? Where the web has ended up. And, like, I'm not, I know I'm not responsible, but here's why, right? Like, at the beginning, we were all like, okay, this is cool, but, like, how are we going to make money? Like, how do we keep these awesome jobs, right? And, like, eventually, And, you know, when you were talking about finding your people, like, we would have barbecues. We'd go to this brew pub every Friday, right, with the internet company and hang out and drink a whole lot and talk and talk and talk.

And like, so we learned a lot about each other's like philosophies, right? So a lot of people there, the internet was about, like, freedom. Like the web was about the ability for people to broadcast. It was all about like individuals being able to speak for themselves, right? Like all of us believe that that's why we were there in order to enable people to have a voice. But what happened was at some point, you know, Google started, ad tech started, and all of a sudden like, oh, we are making money, right? We are able to support this. we have to sew out a little bit in order to do it, right?

But we can do it, right? And so, like, at that point, I became, like, super ambivalent about working in the tech industry because that felt like a real betrayal of, like, that, like, it's about letting people speak, right? It, you know, it wasn't about letting people speak. It was about surveilling people at that point, right? So when I talked to Brax,

in about Project Liberty, he and I go back a little while. Like, he was saying, like, I know you're interested in doing something a little different, like maybe moving on from tech, moving into, you know, something a little bit more mission driven. Like, let me tell you about this. And it was a perfect marriage, right, of the knowledge and experience I have from, you know, working in tech for so long and the desire I had to. to move into a space where I was doing things for people

because I think the other part of my ambivalence was like, you know, I realized like the tech industry is a great way to make a living. And one of the only good ways to make a living in this country right now, right? And so why is that, right? And why is Facebook like a technology company requiring people to move to San Francisco to work for them, right? Like, you know, so it, anyway, so I really saw it as an opportunity to help do a little reset back to the original ideas of what the web was founded on.

I mean, as far as I'm concerned. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite on humor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, Help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying,

and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions,

the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants. answer. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin and rising hockey star, Layla Edwards.

If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs, Gabby Thomas, and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone

and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win. more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world, like, I can do anything. I can, like, I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. At our back. I know that Project Liberty is all about sort of using tech to make sure the

is, you know, open and equitable and really centered on people. Can you talk us through a little bit about how you are seeking to accomplish that, how you do that? Yeah. So it's been a journey for us, right? Because what we're trying to do is not with the tech industry is motivated by as naturally, right? We're trying to build this public infrastructure to help take social networks, the social graph, right, is the technical term for it. Take the social graph and make it a, you know,

a universally owned property so that every individual can decide what they want to do with the information that, you know, exist in that social graph. And it also means that, you know, these companies that are dominating the space now don't get to hold on to your data and don't get to hold on your relationships. Like, you own those connections, right? Because right now, if you leave Facebook, you're leaving, like, I leave Facebook. I'm leaving like 500 connections that I've built up over the years. And why is that, right? So the idea behind Project Liberty is, what we have to do is make the social graph a public good and then see what that unleashes as far as innovation, creativity, Because, you know, one of the things that we're doing is building this protocol on top of the blockchain.

Okay. And we're doing that because that allows us to manage identity and manage state in a way that we can't in other places. And it also gives us an avenue to building an ecosystem where we can really build in incentives for people to come aboard. And in that way, it's really different than the model that. that exists in Silicon Valley, right? Which is, you know, it's about who you know. It's about those venture capitalists. With the blockchain, we have the opportunity for, like,

you can invest in the project that you're interested in. We're going to take advantage of that, right? And figure out some ways to, like I said, create those incentives to bring different types of people into this in a way that we can't now with the current system. Yeah, I mean, when people hear things like blockchain, I feel like automatically what you conjure up is like bros talking about crypto. And I do wish that we could broaden the conversation to folks who are doing things like yourself to bring more people in to try to build more equitable systems and, you know, kind of build that into it. I wish that it was something that had a, it wasn't automatically conjure up the bros talking crypto, that it conjured up.

what you're talking about. You know, but that I think like, that's the opportunity that we have right now, right? Because what we have, what we have to do with this project is create this diverse coalition of people who are going to support it. And like, I don't,

I don't just mean like people of color or women or LGBT. I mean like diversity of thought, right? Like one of the issues with technology right now is it like it's a certain type of person with a certain type of background who's creating all of these apps and programs. And so naturally that's going to impact how and what they create.

And also, like, we've seen it with, you know, what's happened with some of the social networks that are out there. A lot of the impacts that we're experiencing, you know, they weren't unknown. It was because, like, people who had the knowledge weren't included in the conversation. Right. And so that's what we are, that's a part of Project Liberty. We know we have to, to create. We have to create this community that includes as much different expertise and background and experience as possible. Because that's the only way we're going to be able to create something that's usable by, you know, us all. I almost heard snapping and that I remembered we're recording a podcast. I mean, that's it, right? I have said this so many times on the show people are probably rolling their eyes.

But the reason why we need to make sure tech and the people that build it, tech leadership are inclusive, not just because it's the nice thing to do, which it is, it's because the folks who are building these tools and these platforms that dictate so much about our world, if they're all homogenous, there's a big chance for harm, right? And we know that harm will be focused on people who are already marginalized. And so it's not just a nice to have. Exactly, exactly.

So I guess I have to ask, given all that and given what we know about the state of, you know, technology and platforms, are you, like, hopeful about the future of the web, the future of the internet, the future of platforms? like, do you feel like you are thinking that things on the horizon are going to be better or going to be worse? Like, what's your take? Oh, I think things are going to be better. I, like, you know, maybe like a year or two ago, I would have said something different. But I think the level of awareness that people have on the impact that technology is having on their lives has shifted in a really significant way. and people are ready to, you know, I think like, when like the iPhone came about and Facebook became like a dominant mode of communication, people are just like, yeah, this works, this is how it goes. And yeah, I'll give up my data because everything's free, right? But now a few years in, people are like, what does that mean? And so there are really, really meaningful conversations happening right now.

in spaces that I didn't think they would take place in. Like, okay, I was listening to a basketball podcast, and they started talking about blockchain and NFT, right? And, like, it was just like, like, it just made me realize how, like, this stuff is just everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. And I think it's everywhere, and the level of understanding is a level deeper than it was, maybe a year or two ago. And so, like, we have a real opportunity to share with people and say, like, hey, you know what?

If you're looking for something different, we have something different and for them to be able to understand it, right? And, like, I just don't mean Project Liberty. I think there's all kinds of projects and people who have this opportunity right now. I agree with you. I mean, I think it's easy to feel dejected and downtrodden and depressed, you know, when you look at the state of the internet. But I think that like, like you said, that you were describing

the early crew of internet weirdos. And I just think that there's something about it when you bring a bunch of weird, like people who are committed to thinking differently together. I believe in the power of that, I believe that that gives me a lot of hope. So that's pretty nice. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think IHart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning,

the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them?

On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness. professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that.

Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeke. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me.

And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi

on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart women's sports. Let's get right back into it. I have one more question for you. So I know that you're a musician. You were a drummer for the transmissions. The transmissions. Wow. The transmissions. Wow. Thank you. Oh, my God. Not to like putting you on the spot. I also sound like you were like playing South by South West in 2006 like early days. I mean, talk about like being foundational to all these different

places. I guess my question is like, do you see, you know, you were talking. about sort of like the creativity and the innovation of the internet. Like do you, are those things related to you like the creativity and the, you know, the, the creativity of being a musician and making music and making things creatively? Like are these sort of like, is like a Venn diagram for you? Are they related? Oh my God. Like you read my mind right there, Bridget. It totally is.

Like for me it's my experience playing music was. part of what fueled the way that I could think about technology. It was just like, I don't know if other musicians or creative people have this experience, but like I really was conscious of using like a different part of myself in my brain when I was playing drums and performing and stuff. And it just let me and help me like access some different things when I actually like went to work, right? Like I, you know, learning how to perform, I use that stuff every day. I really, really do, like in meetings and stuff, right? The, I mean, like, just like real basic, like the experience of, like, getting to South by Southwest with my bandmates, like, what an incredible experience for us. Like, what a confidence booster for us, you know? Like, we did that ourselves. You know what I mean? And so, like, yeah, all of the stuff is additive. And then, like, like, like, just, just like on the plane of like thinking about how to build things creatively and collaborating with

people. Like I draw, I draw so much from, you know, the bands that I played with, the collectives that I've been in, to the tech that I work in. It's, it's, there's totally a line for me there. Women like Denise are what makes me excited to tell the stories of all the underrepresented voices and identities behind tech and the internet. and the ways we were always there, working to make things better, more inclusive, more creative, even if our stories go overlooked and not often told. And I'm so excited to join women like Denise for my very first ever live there, no girls on the internet taping, on September 23rd and 24th at Unfinished Live.

Unfinished Live was a convening of technologists, journalists, artists, and changemakers, in person at the shed in New York City, and virtually online. It'll be two days of talks about how we can all use ethical, to build a fairer economy and a stronger democracy, alongside leading minds shaping that future. Just go to live.unfinished.com and use promo code Tengote. That's T-A-N-G-O-T-I, and I can't wait to see all there. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoty.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of I-Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Dodd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles, so how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions. about the challenges that shape them

and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, in every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicalife 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance. I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know.

Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.