There Are No Girls on the Internet - So you’re the target of an online hate campaign. Now what?

Episode Date: April 6, 2021

Harassment online is nothing new, but we’ve seen waves of women in journalism being harassed on social media just for doing their jobs. Being targeted by an online harassment campaign can happen to anyone, whether you’re a public figure or not. Writer and Lyz Lenz gives a practical crash course in how to prevent it. Read Lyz’s piece When The Mob Came For Me: https://www.niemanlab.org/2021/04/when-the-mob-comes/ Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You're listening to This Informed, a mini-series from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Nobody likes talking about online harassment. When I first started the podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks, black folks,

and other underrepresented voices are doing on the Internet. And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive, the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore. Earlier this month, Chrissy Teigen left Twitter. This was kind of a big deal. She's someone who was once called the MOYCED, mayor of Twitter because she's such a prolific user. She spoke at Twitter headquarters for a company event, and on Instagram, she made it clear that she didn't blame Twitter for feeling like she had to

leave the platform. She said that Twitter staff had actually reached out and worked with her and her team to deal with the barrage of harassment she faces. And I'm sure they did. Chrissy Teigen is rich and famous and well-connected. But what about the rest of us who aren't? We've seen a wave of online harassment come for women journalists too. On Fox News, Tucker Carlson, did two nights of segments pretty much just making fun of New York Times Internet Culture Reporter Taylor Lorenz, for, as he put it, pretending to be oppressed. After she tweeted, for International Women's Day, please consider supporting women enduring online harassment. After Times reporter Rachel Abrams did a report on the conservative news network own,

the network retaliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the air and encouraging viewers to contact her, a pretty obvious attempt at inciting harassment. And it's not just people with public profiles. Harassment is just a reality when you're a marginalized person who puts their opinion or words online. If you're a woman or a person of color or a queer person who's listening, you've probably already dealt with it. I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to talk about. But writer Liz Land says that we need to start talking about it. In her piece called When the Mob came for me, she details what she's learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment for daring to be a woman with opinions online. Liz wants people to know that becoming the target of an

online harassment campaign can happen to anyone. So it's important to have a plan if it does. When I started doing this show, I initially purposefully did not focus on harassment because I was like, I want to write a or do a thing about the internet and women where it's not centered around our negative experiences. But as that went on, it was, it was becoming something that it felt like I was purposely ignoring, even though it's something that we all experience. And so I, you know, I read your piece when a mob came for me and you were writing about your first experiences with online harassment. And I was wondering if you could sort of talk us through what happened. You know, I really identify with your journey talking about harassment because I don't really

like to talk about my harassment. I find that a couple of things happen when you do talk about your harassment. People either tell you you're whining and it's not that bad or they are like, well, what'd you do to deserve it? Or, or the worst. thing is when they're like, and then what happened? You know, and you're like, oh, God, like, I don't want to, and then they're like, what kind of bomb threats did you get? And then you're like, um, okay, weirdos. I don't know. It just like, it never feels like there's a great way to have the conversation. And, um, but, but like you, I have been seeing you, we are coming out of a year where I think especially marginalized journalists are exhausted. I know.

a handful of journalists who have quit are taking breaks because just the pressures of pandemic, the intense harassment that they've received and no breaks and everything. And it just felt like there was this, it felt like there was a moment where I was like, we need to talk about this. We need to have a conversation. And so you're right. I wrote this thing that talked about my experiences and I just like want to be very clear at the outset like there's a difference between criticism and harassment like you know telling me I'm wrong or that you hate my article that's okay like I don't consider that harassment what I consider harassment is you know calling me horrible names telling me you want my kids to die telling me you want me to die telling me you're

going to bomb my house or sending me pictures of Pepe the frog raping me that's what I consider harassment And that, I feel like that's pretty, I like, I don't, I feel like there's a pretty clear line between the two. I don't know why we keep, uh, why it's hard to have that conversation. So anyway, now to finally answer your question. Yes. Um, in 2016, I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa. Right. Every four years, I write about the caucuses in some capacity. And that year in 2016, I was writing about the caucuses for vice. And I was live tweeting. you know, because that's a thing that journalists do. And I was like, I'm going to do it. And I only had like a couple thousand followers, and they were all following me

because I'd had a pretty successful mom blog for a while, not like super famous, like solid. I'd say like third tier college kind of mom blog. It's like what you settle for when you don't get into Harvard. I started tweeting my experience caucusing. And in that year, as we all know, and I, It was, you know, Hillary versus Bernie. If you were on political pockets of social media back then, you probably recall that the 2016 presidential election

could feel like a pretty polarizing time to be online. There were palpable tensions between Bernie Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters that could really feel difficult to escape. And I have no political problems with Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his, like, yelled at me during the caucuses, and this is Iowa. Like we don't yell at each other. We keep it inside and then talk shit about you behind your back.

Like it's, and like, and so it was like straight aggressive. And it was so shocking to me that I was live tweeting it. And he had said something like you're voting with your vagina and I, you know, quit back. You know, and it wasn't even that creative. I think somebody else had said it better before. But, you know, I was like, yeah, America has been voting with its dick for 240 years. Like, come on, man. And, you know, I was like, chill out.

And I tweeted that and just, it got picked up and used as fodder and the Bernie Hillary Wars. And I was getting, you know, I've deleted it since then. And I encourage everybody to regularly delete their tweets. But, you know, it was like, got like thousands and thousands of retweets and likes. You know, they were faves stars then. This is back in the olden days. And then, you know, and, and that's when I started getting, I got people with my DMs.

I got emails, people being like, you know, we're going to, we're going to call CPS on you to have your kids taken away. And I don't, you know, I'm not going to attribute this to like one side or the other. I think there's just trolls out in the world and they like to harass people. But yeah, I was, and that's when it was like, it wasn't like it. it took things. Like, I'd gotten criticism before, you know, where it's like, look at this dumb bitch. But like, I hadn't gotten,

now your kids are going to be taken away. And then, you know, and in 2016, so that's when my career as a writer was really starting to take off. And I was writing longer form pieces. And it just became a situation where every once in a while, like I get like a weird letter. Like, I got.

Like a snail mail? And you're at your home? Wow. Yeah. And the most disturbing one was, uh, was just like five pages, like white printer pages. And somebody had handwritten out Bible verses on them. And it was just like, and it was just like, you know, all the verses about like repent and you're going to hell. It's like, I grew up like evangelical.

Like you can't convert me. Come on. I already memorized all those Bible verses in Oana. Like I was in Bible quiz. You can't, you can't out by the meaning. And, but also it was like chilling. And I remember opening the envelope and being like, you know, like scared music in the background. And, and like stuff like that would trickle and trickle and trickle.

And then finally, a couple of things started to happen. And, you know, again, like, I don't want to be like, oh, like this one thing happened. because I think once you're kind of on a radar, then it just comes back and comes back. As Liz's public profile grew as she published bigger and bigger stories, so did the level of harassment she faced. A couple of things started to happen around 2018, 2019, is I wrote some more high-profile pieces, and then finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson, which is what a lot of people know me for. I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review, and after that, it sparked a whole year of just waves. It was, like, I liken it to like, you know, like a tide.

It would, like, flow in and flow out, but there would always be a little trickle. So basically, 2018, 2019, the wave is out right now. fingers off. But like the tides out. It was what it, but like, it just, it sparked off this whole, um, just harassment where like my phone was blowing up. I used to use a Google number that got doxed. I was getting like, um, you know, uh, it's hard to explain, but like there's this like troll community thing where, you know, they used to use Pepe. Now they use like this picture of a giant Bugs Bunny. And they call it like big chungess it's just it's just dumb right and but it's like and so i just get like pictures and pictures of that you know i was also getting you know pictures of peppy the frog

raping me like photoshopped you know and it was just like you were coming for you and and all of this and and like it never ended because i think in that time i published i started publishing some like you know bigger pieces i published a story they got a lot of attention um about my divorce food in my divorce and was titled, I'm never cooking for a man again, which was like, you know, it's like titles are always a little tongue in cheek, but it was just an exploration of like food and emotional labor and marriage and, and oh my God, that like went super viral and and just got like shit ton of shit. I've actually read it and it's it's so touching and like personal and relatable. And it's funny to me that that title was, I mean, we've all, like, having read the

piece, it is, it makes so much sense. But I could see how that title would be like, enraging for people who were already predisposed to think of you in this negative light. But that's the troll thing, right? It's like, just take things at headline value and then use that to crap on people. You know, and I had, then I also published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce, the Nazi. That didn't help. Then I moderate in 2019. I moderated a presidential forum. And it was, you know, I'll say this about the forum is we had, there were three moderators.

I was just one of them. And they, you know, they're both the other two moderators, lovely people. both marginalized and, you know, identify as queer in their own ways. And all of the questions we had like co-written together and like many organizations, you know, had like vetted. And so I was just really just reading off of a prompter. Here is Liz Grilling Biden at the forum. You also praised Vice President Mike Pence as a decent guy.

We're a lovely person. I was asking the questions if you've been. That's also when Joe Biden called me a real sweetheart because I pushed him on some of the, you know, criminalization bills, like, that had, you know, put more queer people in jail. It's just kind of how it happened. Joe, like, no, it's like facts. And I had put, because he was like, that's not true. And I was like, well, it is.

So could you just talk about it? And so, and as we were walking off the stage, he was like, you're a real sweetheart. And I was like, I can't believe the president was snotty to me. You're doing your job as the moderator. Right. And like that's the whole thing is like, you know, I ask questions and I follow up and like, see, please answer the question. I think that's like, yes, but like, you know, and it would, you know, the power and balance.

But after that, I mean, that also kicked off a huge, intense wave. And that's when I started getting bomb threats. And one of the other moderators was talking to me the other day. And after my piece on harassment I published and he was like, you know, I never received the same kind of harassment that you did, even though we moderated the same forum. He's like, he's like, it's just because you're on the radar. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

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Liz says that once you're on the radar of a network of harassers online, anything that you say can be used against you. For her, it was a silly joke that she had made about online dating after a night out with friends. And with that kind of threat hanging over you, it can feel like it's not worth it to show up as your full self online, because someone somewhere could inevitably take whatever thing you're saying out of context to harass you.

The thing that they always cling to is this one joke I made. it was I was I had said and this happened but it was just like I was just joking about it was like a man unmatched with me after I told him I was a journalist you know what's he hiding you know time to open and it's not even that funny I think it was like a joke I like tweeted at like 11 p.m. after I'd had like drinks with friends and I was like oh this is fun you know what I mean it's like not it's not it's just like okay Liz ha ha ha you know and but like they screenshot that and every once in a while it'll just come back up and people be like did you do this did you docks an innocent man and I'll be like uh I don't even remember his name but yes that is that is my joke thank you like it's not that

but that's the thing that comes back up more often than anything else it's just it's it's weird I don't know it's so interesting how that one harmless joke that is not, you know, I mean, I've seen that screenshot. And, you know, I can only imagine what it's like for you being like, oh, they're holding this, this silly joke I made back up again. It will never go away. It's just like I just deserve better enemies. I'm always like, I have made, first of all. Like, first of all, I've made way worse jokes. Way worse. Like, do you hear how I'm talking?

Like, I, I say dumb shit all the time, just constantly. Literally fight me on literally any other dumb thing I've said. But like, and then they're all like expect me to be ashamed of it. They're like, did you stay this? And I'm like, I sure did. And they're like, did you docks a man? And I'm like, I sure didn't because it's a joke, y'all. And it's funny because, like, you know, that was one of the things that I,

that, you know, like a lot of this trolly culture is like, you know, the liberals can't take a joke. That's why we're going to like, you know, make fun of them and like taunt them. This is a really nasty way. You know, it's like it's like a generation of men who never learned that they weren't funny. Oh, God, yes. Yeah. And it's just like this is actually not, these are not jokes. I'm friends with the comedian Josh Gondleman, and I was like, you should perform a service where people can ask you, is this a joke or not?

And you're like, you know, is like a five-year-old, you know, is this a joke? Nope, sorry, that's just a fart sound. It's not a joke, you know. Is this a joke? No, you just made a fat joke. You know, you're just making a comment about somebody's weight. Not a joke. Not a joke.

Just some fat phobia. Even that joke does illustrate. how I guess I feel that on Twitter especially, we've gotten to a point where it's like bad, like we're not able to have actual conversations or even just communicate because everything is so weaponized and take it in bad faith. Anybody, like you're what you tweeted was obviously

just a joke you're kidding around, but there's this assumption that anything that you say, I just feel that Twitter is so charged. People, once you're on someone's radar, they're looking for anything. Anything that you say can be used to be like, see, she's the worst. Yeah. You know, it's so funny because that thing I wrote about online mobs.

Part of it was an interview with the journalist and author Talia Labelavon and who helped me through that year of harassment. And has used really just because she's experienced it. She wrote this book, Cultural Warlords, where she, you know, digs into these communities, online communities. communities of hate. And so, but the funny thing about it, and in that interview, you know, she's very clear. Like, she's very good at parsing the nuance of what's harassment and what's criticism. Because again, like, people are allowed to criticize. Like, and I'm going to make

mistakes. And people are allowed to call out those mistakes. And I never want to be, you know, like nailing myself to a cross just because like maybe I fucked up a column, you know, and I'm going to. Like they're not all going to be winners. I'm going to fail. And, you know, she does a really good job, like pointing out, like, people saying that Andrew Cuomo, you know, harass them sexually. That's not an online mob. Like, that's just people talking about their experiences and saying, this isn't okay. An online mob is, you know, putting a picture of somebody's house inside a crosshairs and saying, you know, I'm building pipe bombs. Like, that's the difference. And so, but like that interview was quote tweeted or like somebody quote tweeted it.

It was Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted it and was like, oh, look at the, you know, he was basically like, look at these people that don't know the difference between harassment and criticism. was like, if you were functionally literate, like, you would have read it and know that we have like three paragraphs, you know, parsing out that nuance. But again, like it's what you're saying, it's just bad faith. And it's just once you're on somebody's radar and they don't like you, everything that you do, they're just going to hate. Yeah. It sucks. I mean, what does it feel, what does that feel like for you? Like, what does it feel like to be facing that kind of a charged online environment just to do your job every day?

It was hard in the beginning. There's something my therapist likes to remind me of is that, like, you level up. You know what I mean? Like, is that as you go through life and as you become more successful, you know, you kind of have these experiences like you have to grow into. Right. And so, yes, that first year of intense harassment was a really hard. It felt like being in a tunnel. Just like I couldn't, everything was closing in all around me. And, you know, I also live in us. I don't live in a big, well, it's the second largest city in Iowa. People are always like, it's the big city. Yes, it's the big city if you're from like, you know, a like fair field or something. But if it's 300,000. people. It's not that big. And something that has happened too is like, you know, I get emails from people in town and, you know, or don't do this to people, by the way, but people like to make

me aware when other people in town are discussing me on Facebook. And I'm like, please don't. Because then it makes me scared to go to the grocery store. But yes, people have like, yeah, I remember very specifically one woman in town who's like pretty high profile who had like a whole Facebook post discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated that forum, you know, calling me showy and trashy and like I was just trying to flaunt myself and like implying that I was like a giant slut. I was wearing like it doesn't matter what I was wearing like but but I was wearing like you know just like a standard and like newscaster dress. It was bright yellow because I can wear yellow. I'm like one of the few white people who can do it. It's a tough color to pull off. It's a tough color to pull off. And it's my

one skill and y'all can just eat it. You know, and that kind of stuff, it makes you feel like you can't be anonymous. You know, I'll go for runs and people will honk at me. And it's like, like, well, am I getting, is that my friend? Is that, is that like a car full of dudes? You know, that are, you know, and it's just like, you don't know and it's scary or you go to the grocery store and people be like, oh, are you the writer? And you're like, maybe are you the one who participated in talking about what a slut I was? Like, you know, I'm just like, I don't. And it's, and most people are nice.

And most people are good, actually. And most people are generous. I think this. I believe this. But when you're in that harassment zone, and especially when things are really intense, you know, it's usually over. The intensity is over by like a day, two days. But anyway, like, you know, it's usually only intense for a couple days, but it feels like you're in a tunnel. It feels like you can turn everything off. You can turn your phone off. You can turn your internet off. And I do recommend that when things are bad. Just log off. Don't tweak through it. Just log off.

can't win, stay away, have some friends monitor it for you just to let you know if there's anything. But even if that's happening, you don't know because if they're like targeting where you live or you're like what's safe. If the door knocks, you're like, is that? What is that? You know, in the most intense times, you know, I was seeing posts like, I live 30 minutes from her town. Should I go there? What? You know, it is terrifying. And I, I'm a single mom. I have two kids. And now I have two dogs. But it's not an accident that I have two dogs, right? Like, it's directly related to some of my fears about, you know, living alone and being a target of harassment. And so, And yes, and so it feels like being in a tunnel.

One of the things I used I did in the before times when the harassment would get bad is I would just log off, you know, tell my friends, like don't, you know, just take my Twitter password, change it for a while, you know, do all this. And then I would go, don't, like, Marcus Theaters don't get mad at me by sneak little bottles of that cheap setter home wine in. and then get a big popcorn and then just sit in a movie theater. So it just was like, I'm safe because nobody knows me. I'm, you know, I'm, nobody can see me. Nobody knows. I'm like seeing this movie. And, yeah, or just, you know, go to a bar and sit outside or whatever.

But yes, it does. It feels like being in the tunnel. Wow. People might be thinking, you know, oh, well, I don't write about politics or I'm not like X, Y, Z kind of person. So this can never happen to me. But something that you write in your piece that I think is important to pull out, you write, people want to attribute this hate to one thing, one moment or one time that I messed up,

one story I filed. I think people do that because they want to feel safe. They want to think it will never happen to them. If you can blame me somehow, then you can distance yourself from it all. And that one nugget, I think is so important because I do think there probably are people right now who are listening to you speaking and they're like, oh, well, that will never happen to me because I'm insert thing here. And I think that was a real change for me

was what I realized, getting on the radar of people who want to make your life miserable online and offline as well, it's not one thing you did, right? And so it's important for everyone to understand that, that this could be any of us. I was randomly just talking to somebody for a story I wrote last year, and he was telling me how his son,

who is a black teenage boy in town was just getting getting that same kind of hate because he just posted a picture of himself with his girlfriend and somehow a troll army found that he just existed like just existed um and it just waves and waves and you know and and and and and since posting that you know i've heard from people who are like i'm a school board member and one time I spoke up about guns in school, you know, and like, I think, actually, I think anti-gun activists get a lot of this kind of harassment, but it's just like, you can be a school board member. Somebody reached out to me to tell me that when they were a teen, they started

an LGBTQ club in their high school, just a couple years ago, and got targeted and are still targeted. And they're just like, they're just like a human. And, you know, not high profile. Like, probably not even on Twitter. I didn't ask. But like, just like, you just existed. And you got this kind of hate. It's, yes, you don't have to be high profile and obnoxious.

And I think that like me, I'm not that high profile. Let's not get excited. But like, yes, you just have to exist in a way. that people don't like, you know, trans people get this kind of hate. And that was, you know, that was actually one of the motivating reasons where I really wanted to talk about it because I have friends who are trans who are getting a lot of this harassment, just for existing. And I made the conscious decision not to interview one of them because I didn't want to

put more of a target on their back. But like, yeah, just like, just like living your life and being enhanced. be if you do so, you know, and you get on the radar, like, that's, it's it's over. You know, there's a journalist and messaging right now who's, you know, like, maybe like 400 followers. Like, she writes about sports, but because she's a woman who writes about sports, she's like, I get, she's like, I've been getting some really intense harassment. I think that's a good point that, like, it seems to be always people. who are marginalized.

And so if you're a woman, a woman of color, LGBTQ, like, it seems like it's much worse for us when we put our opinions out there. Like, I noticed this was one of the reasons where I was like, I have to talk about harassment because it's getting to be too much. You mentioned Glenn Greenwald. A few weeks ago, there was a USA Today piece where a intern had published her first byline. Her name is Bretta Smith, and it was a co-byline with another author, Will Carrelist, who was a white man.

And it was so interesting to me. So Glenn Greenwald retweeted it and was like, I hope you're like some mean tweet. It was over to his over a million followers. Correct. And it's not like his followers are not like the most generous people on the internet. Like if you're making the conscious decision to follow him as a person and his personal brand is not like, it's not like, you know, kindness, generosity and light. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite.

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Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because you're very, Parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt Yard.

They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle age. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smygel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

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Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards.

If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel like. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladecki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me.

And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. Podcasts for wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Let's get right back into it. We talk a lot about free speech online, what it is and who has it. But we need to make room to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad. And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment. To make people feel like speaking up and putting their opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it. to make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just stop talking. The silencing effect it has can be real.

And this is something that Liz wants men to understand. I do not think these men need to stop talking. I mean, I would like it if they talked less, but that's my own personal decision. It has no reflection on the constitution or laws that I would like to see changed. But like I, you know, nobody's saying you can't talk. But what they are saying is there is a difference between when you talk and when I talk. When you talk, maybe people quote, tweet you and tell you're a potatoed brain. Fine.

When I talk, people tell me they're going to kill my kids. And that's the difference. And there is a silencing effect. And that's the point. Like the point is the silencing effect. The point is the fear. The point is to make you look over your shoulder, to make you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice before you have an opinion.

And it's that culture of silence and that culture of fear that is bred. And I know, I know women who are afraid of doing things, of poking their heads out. I never learned there's something deeply wrong with me. So it actually makes me bolder. It makes me, like, no, you don't get to dictate the terms on which I live my life and on how I write. And so, but I'm not saying there's a wrong way to be. You have to live the life that feels good and safe to you.

So I'm not. But it makes me sad, you know, because I do know there are voices we do not hear because of this fear. And that's the silencing and that's the thing we need to be talking about. And that's the thing that I think is interesting, right? That who gets defended and who gets attacked, right? you're right like you know quote tweeting the intern and telling them they did a bad job when it's obvious it was probably just assigned you know it was a co-by line with another man like and if you had a

problem with the piece then don't attack like just say i have a problem with this piece like i have a problem don't tell that person they're bad at their like there is a line like and and i actually think that like being harassed makes me a little bit more of an empathetic person because i it is and you know it is tempting for everybody to like think of like a celebrity or somebody who's more high profile not as a person right you're like oh well you're just an image so now i'm going to just talk about like how you look on the internet but it does make me think twice about like how i talk about people and how i how i criticize things because you know there there is a difference and there is a line and um yeah and i think too if you're high profile

enough you should know that by now and you should you know use your power for good not evil i always you know try to think like i i punch up right like hold power accountable and that's another thing i think it's always like she's always like know your power so that you don't abuse your power that's so important yeah she's like who are you going to fight like and how are you going to fight it you know she's like you need to be very conscious of those things so that you don't you know so that you don't hurt anybody. You talked about the role that Talia, who I love, played when you were harassed, and that it wasn't just, you know, keep your head up, girl.

It was, here's what you need to know. So I wonder, I saw your tweet about things that you thought that anybody who is on Twitter should do to make sure that they are protecting themselves from being targeted by this kind of harassment. Can you tell us a bit about what you would suggest people do to keep themselves safe? Yeah, very practical advice. I'm a practical Midwestern mom, so I like practical advice. So here's, I think, number one, a lot of people may not know this, but there are websites, hundreds, hundreds of websites across the internet that scrub your data and then sell it to

anybody who's willing to pay for it. And that's how you basically, that's the number one way people get docks. There are services that will scrub that data off the internet for you. And one of the services that I have used that Talia recommended to me, I think it was Talia. It was either that or it was Christopher Matthias, who's an incredible reporter who reports on extremism. One of them told me very early on, use Delete Me. This is not a commercial. Don't get money from them.

Like, I just, although the tweet did so well, they like now, if you use the promo code, L-Y-Z-L. Shit, drop the promo code. Yes. I go to the whole code. By the way, I don't want to brag, but like, I'm a promo code. So, like, I just live in that promo code life. Super famous. I told my kids, I'm like, I'm a promo code.

Treat me with respect. And they're like, we're thirsty. Please, we just want some water. What are you talking like that? But yes, delete me is a great service. There's other ones out there. Delete me is the one I've been. using for years. There is a promo code for 20% off. It's a significant amount of money,

LIZL, if you use it. And then other things, too, if you have kids, get all their pictures off the internet. Now, just do it. You know, scrub your Facebook. There are services out there. None of them are super great. So there's not one I really could recommend. I'd just Google around. scrub your Facebook. A lot of TV news stations have their newscasters have two Facebooks, you know, your private one and your public one. Consider that if you like to use Facebook. I think Facebook is necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community. You kind of need to see what's going on. But if you have the luxury of deleting Facebook, just delete it. The thing with Instagram is I have a private one and a public one now.

I recommend that. Or just keeping your Instagram private because you don't want people finding pictures of you and like photo, you know what I mean? Like in photo and like being like, oh, she went to. It's just everything will be taken in bad faith. And you never know the thing that people are going to object to like my stupid joke. Right. Like I say automatically delete your tweets.

it might feel sad. Do it. Like just delete your tweets pretty regularly. TweetDelet.net. It's a free service. You're just like, you know, auto, start auto deleting. Those are some pretty practical things you can do that it won't stop harassment, but it will protect you from people knowing where you live, for people knowing the faces of your children, or your other loved ones when I wrote about Richard's. Spencer, he went on, you know, that, that like, you know, like the chum bucket of YouTube shows where he was saying, he was saying my, the last name that I use is my married last name, even though I'm divorced now. I just like, well, last names are the same. It's just too exhausting to go back. But he was, you know, using my maiden name and my last name. And I, I started worrying about my parents, you know, I was like, oh, God, now they're going to find my parents. It just makes it harder for people to find that kind of stuff. And usually, like, if they can't find it pretty easily, then it just goes away after a couple hours. In most cases, it will go away after a couple hours. But there is something my agent said the last time I was going through some intense harassment is, you know, she's like, this happens. If you are successful, if you are good at your job, like she represents a lot of female journalists.

And she's like, it never gets easier. So just find ways, find tools, find people to help you good friends, you know, because the impulses to always feel like, oh, did I screw up? You know, as if you're not like a narcissist, you're like, oh, I must be doing something to deserve this. Nine times out of ten, you didn't. Nobody deserves to get that threats. Nobody deserves that kind of stuff.

No one. And, you know, but like nine times out of ten, you didn't do anything wrong, you know, but have friends in your life who would tell you. Like, yeah, that was an offensive joke. You screwed up, delete it and go dark for a while. You know, like just get people in your life who can help you and reach out. Like if you're in like a really going through some harassment, you don't know how to handle it. Like reach out.

Like my DMs are open. Sometimes I close them. but they're open now. Reach out to other journalists. And that's another thing, too, is if you see somebody going through something like that, reaching out to them, let's, is really just saying like, hey, I see you, I see that this is happening. I'm so sorry, you know, or, you know, or just like, I'm here for you.

I like you. You know, that's, you know, that's good. That's good enough. Even if, you know, even if you're like, well, The article you wrote did kind of suck. Nobody deserves death threats. Nobody deserves death threats. And yes.

And so those are some practical things, I think. As much as I hate seeing anybody be going through targeted harassment on social media, something that I have been really kind of proud to see lately is that one, how many individual other journalists are like, we support you, you know, that community response, I think is beautiful. And then two, something I think is really important. important is the institutional response. And so when someone is harassed, when their outlet puts out a statement that is like, we support the good work of this journalist. Because I think for a long

time, if someone was being harassed, they would be calling, you know, the outlet they work for, and maybe they would be fired. We would be like, oh, we want to cut ties. Maybe they would not stand by them. I'm kind of heartened to see situations where, you know, your NBC's or ABCs put out statements standing up for their reporters. And, you know, I will say, like, I have had institutions throw me under the bus, and I have had institutions stick up for me. I will say the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of my work. And I think that Kyle Pope over there has been amazing. In the harassment that I have received, you know, for him, I have profiled. Alan Dershowitz, Tucker Carlson, Chris Zeliza, Seth Abramson. And if you think that there wasn't pushback of those articles, you're wrong. Gretchen Carlson. That was a weird one. And every single time they have stood by, first of all, you know, institutionally, they provide rigorous fact-checking

so that everything would be airtight. And then stood by me, you know, through the waves, is because they, I don't know, I've never been like, Kyle, why have you done it? But it's, I think it's because they know and they value good work. And yes, and so it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right. I hate it when institutions get it wrong. But there are some good examples of things. Let's, if we focus on the positive, I do. And I think that knowing that your institution has your back makes you a better journalist, makes you better at your job. Like, I'm more willing, you know, to say bolder things or to write bigger stories for them because I know I can trust them, that I know that, you know, they'll have a lawyer ready and they'll defend me and they'll be proud of me. Media companies and outlets are starting to catch up.

When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and Sungman Cam were harassed online for doing their jobs, their outlets put out statements sticking up for them. And some outlets have gone even further. Last week, the sports site Defector Media announced a new policy that would offer support to journalists if they found themselves at the center of a harassment campaign, including a subscription to delete me, safe housing for them and their family should their homes become unsafe, and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts. Not only is this a good way to support staff, but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real thing that staff might have to deal with. Instead of just pretending that it's something just happening online, it acknowledges the reaction. that online harassment can deeply impact our real world, our real work, and real lives. And if people are marginalized, the kind of harassment they face will be worse. You know, talking with other men, and men get this kind of harassment too, but I was talking

with another writer just the other day about this. And he was like, yeah, I've gone through harassment cycles before. He's like, but I don't think they inspire in me, the fear that they inspire in you, because you're already afraid. to walk alone at night, right? Like, these are already fears that you have, and they get compounded by your fears online. And this is not all in your head, right? Fear is a gift, read the gift of fear. Everybody read the gift of fear.

It's a great book. It teaches you to trust yourself, like, trust your gut. And I teach that to my daughter. I'm like, trust your gut. You know, if something feels weird, if an adult feels weird, get away. from them. Yes. Sometimes she'll be like, you feel weird.

And not the gift of fair, but fine. Go to your room. It's, but yes. And so like, yeah, but yes, like it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in the world, and which is, you know, so much harder for marginalized people. And it's, you know, it's not in your head. Like this, like, you know, racism and homophobia is institutionalized. And so, yes.

Yes, so it is different, definitely. And it is encouraging when you do find places that support you. And they're just doing, like, their jobs. Like, you know, to, like, say, like, we have an employee and they did this story and we're fine with it. But, like, just, I think because we've all just been so railroaded by capitalism. that when it does its job like it's uh we're like thanks mom yes our standards are very low they are so low it's like oh you didn't you didn't toss me out like the trash like great thank you but no i do i i do think uh cdr has supported me and my work in some really powerful ways

and i don't think that that's nothing and i don't think it's a mistake that i've some of my best work I've written for them, right? And so it makes good business sense to treat your employee as well. What is your advice to underrepresented people, women, people of color, who want to put their opinions out into the world, whether as a writer like yourself, whether just as a social media user, but are understandably scared?

Yeah, you know, I say obviously, like, you need to live the life, that you're happiest with. So, you know, like, so I don't think that I can tell you what that looks like, and nobody can. But, you know, and if you're scared, like, yeah, think about that, right? Like, do the work. But there are some simple practical steps you can take now, even if you're just like, I'm not famous.

Nobody cares about what I say. Who cares? Live like you're going to be famous. Start leveling up and start taking care of your shit now. scrub your stuff, you know, lock down your Instagrams, you know, figure that kind of shit out, you know, clear, do whatever you need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare. And start doing that now before it gets bad. And then I think that that gives you a place of strength from which to operate and then have like a game plan. I'm a person who loves a plan. So, you know, just and have

having a plan for, okay, if this does happen, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to log off. I'm going to have this friend do this. I've had friends monitor my email before, you know, just because like, sign out, no notifications. Can you handle it? And have those plans in place, I think it gives you a position of strength to operate from. And only write, by the way, here's another tip. If we're talking about writing, only write for editors that have your back and you'll know. Like, do not write for an editor who is going to let you publish

something shitty. I used to work as an editor for a literary magazine and there were times when I would be reading an essay that was otherwise lovely, but had like one or two sentences in it that, you know, might be fact shaming.

Might be a little bit not great. And, you know, my comment to the author was always we're taking this out because it brings down the quality of the piece and you're writing. Right. It's and, but, you know, there are websites. XO. Jane used to do this that would take people's worst thoughts and impulses, put them online, and then they'd become targets, and then they'd be like, why didn't that happen to me?

It's like, well, you wrote something terrible in a bad way. And not to say, once again, people don't deserve. threats. But, and I do think we don't, that was like the internet and the early odds a little bit. I feel like people have, most editors will have your back. But don't write for editors who are going to throw you under the bus, who are going to, you know, exploit your marginalized identity for clicks. Be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be afraid to walk away from stories if you get a bad vibe or editors if you get a bad vibe. It's fine. I've done a. a couple times just because I'm like, me, I don't, I respect you, but I feel like we're not

vibing on this piece and it's okay to walk away from it. Things like that. I also just like never advocate anybody living a life of fear. And so if you're in that place, if you feel like all you're doing is operating from a place of fear, you're not, you're not living your best life. So what do you need to do to not be there? Doesn't mean getting off Twitter, you know, you can have a life, like, not online. It's possible. Lots of people have, you know, wonderful writing careers and are not on the internet. People exist not on the internet. Things happen, not on internet. So find the life that you need to live and lead and don't live in a place of here. Please, nobody wants that for you. And don't be afraid to reach out to other people. You know,

find your community and find the people who, who, who, who, love you and want to see you succeed and really, you know, lean on them. That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up with all the amazing stuff that you're doing? Oh, like a cancel culture warrior, I also have a newsletter. It is, it's just liz. substack.com, L-Y-Z dot substack.com, and it's called men yell at me. They do.

People are like, why do you call it? I'm like, I don't know. Why do they yell? Don't ask me. But that's my newsletter. So I also have a Twitter. It's at L-Y-Z-L. I also have a website, LizLens.com.

And you can find me all of those places. If you enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from you at hello at tango. com. Disinformed is brought to you by There are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy. Not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional.

athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo. In every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the

headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.