There Are No Girls on the Internet - Soledad O'Brien Explores Stand Your Ground in Netflix True Crime Documentary The Perfect Neighbor

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

It’s not every day Bridget gets to talk to one of her heroes!    Soledad O’Brien has built her career on stories that hit hard and stick with you, winning multiple Emmys and Peabody awards along the way. Her work has inspired Bridget since she was a young girl, watching her coverage of the emerging Internet in the 1990s.    In this wide-ranging interview, Soledad talks about her two new documentaries, both of which are the subject of considerable online discussion.    'The Perfect Neighbor,' on Netflix, tells the tragic story of AJ Owens and examines the legal and systemic failures that almost allowed her death to go unpunished due in part to Florida's stand-your-ground law.    'The Devil is Busy,' now streaming on HBO Max, follows a day in the life of Tracii, the head of security at a Georgia abortion clinic, and the relentless work she does to keep the clinic operating safely. The documentary offers a powerful, ground-level, humanizing view of the challenges faced by those working to provide reproductive healthcare in the current landscape.    In addition to talking about the films, Soledad also shares her perspectives on journalism, online culture, and the roles of filmmakers and journalists in creating change.  If you’re listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment there to let us know what you thought about this episode, or email us at [e-mail]  Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media!  ||  instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc/ || tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc ||  youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. If you watched The Perfect Neighbor, be sure to check out the impact campaign highlighting Stand Your Ground laws and racialized violence, Standing in the Gap: https://standinginthegapfund.org/  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Do we want a world where a killer can walk free? The perfect neighbor, now on Netflix, forces us to face that question. The documentary tells the tragic story of A.J. Owens and examines the legal and systemic failures that almost allowed for her death to go unpunished. Journalist Soledad O'Brien has built her career on Starvation. stories like this one, stories that hit hard and stick with you. And this project is exactly that.

Executive produced by O'Brien with director Gita Gondbier, the perfect neighbor dives into AJ Owen's shocking death and the systems that failed her. I am so honored that you're here today, So let. I'm such a huge fan. If my parents were alive to see me talking to you, they would be so excited. You have no idea. Thank you. Thank you.

That's so sweet. I appreciate that. Now, you may know Soledad O'Brien as an iconic journalist who has earned multiple Emmys and Peabody Awards for her coverage ranging from Hurricane Katrina to the BP oil spill. But my earliest memory of her goes back even further to a short-lived but way ahead of its time tech news show about the emerging internet revolution. It was called The Site. And it aired on the early days of MSNBC, a network I would later go on to work for myself. in no small part inspired by Soledad O'Brien. Now, if you didn't catch the show, it was truly something.

Soldadad's co-host was a virtual reality character named Dev Null, voiced by real-life tech journalist Leo Leport, and they would sit around in an animated espresso bar talking about the internet. Now, in case you can't tell, this was the 90s, 1996, to be exact, long before newsrooms were covering the internet the way they do now. Soledad became one of the earliest mainstream voices explaining this new digital world just as it was also taking shape.

And for a 12-year-old Bridget, just beginning to explore the internet, it was a very big deal. I was talking to my producer as I was prepping for this and he was like, I don't know that I've ever seen you nervous to speak to anybody before what's going on. And I thought back and I realized I had a memory of watching one of your early shows

of my parents who were big news junkies do you remember the show that you did the site on MSNBC? Yes. Were you one of the six people who watched that show? Thank you. I'm going to send you a fruit basket. Yes, thank you. My parents were the kind of people who always had MSNBC on in the background.

And I loved that you had like a, you know, I was young when it was on, but I loved that there was like a virtual host. And so that was a show that I remember very clearly watching. And part of me wonders if I'd even be doing tech media, tech journalism today, if not for these memories of watching that show when I'm a show. Isn't that so crazy? When we did that, that was Leo Laporte, who was basically in a, I don't even know what you would call it, a suit that you basically had stickers, right?

You would capture, a motion capture suit. And then part of the show, the six people who watched it, would know that we would do a Q&A. And then we always had to do Retraction Monday because you'd get stuff so wrong. We'd be like, and it's Retraction Monday where we have to take back some of the stuff. Deb Null was the name of the character, got wrong. And then he was just ridiculous. We often had to lay, I just had to unplug him all the time. It was a really fun show to do.

The site really was on the cutting edge of so much in tech and media, even in the way that the show came to an end. When Princess Diana died, a night that I vividly remember because my mother was obsessed with her, the show was preempted for live breaking coverage of her death. This was before the news looked and functioned the way it does now, with 24-hour rolling updates and constant on-air coverage. In that moment, the network recognized that continuous live coverage

was the direction news and media was heading, and the site quietly slipped off the air as that new era began. The site, very much cutting edge, right, on MSNBC in an era before cable news became round-the-clock breaking. The minute Princess Diana died, that's when the switch happened, where suddenly everybody wanted updates really by the moment. minute. They needed to have rolling news all the time when there was a breaking news story. And that's not really how cable had been, which is kind of interesting. And so the site launched with MSNBC in

1996. But we only lasted about a year and a bit because, you know, with just the format, which was taped, which it took us, you know, we were using modems, right, 588 to do a tech show. So sometimes we have to like let stuff download and go to lunch. And it was. And it was, It would take us an entire day to shoot a one-hour show. And I remember when people said, you know, can you do six days a week of shows? I was like, oh, my God, I don't think so. Like, I just do not think so. But, of course, you look back now and you think technology, of course, so much to report on, so much to talk about.

And yeah, I think we did get a lot of people and hopefully a lot of women and young women kind of interested in tech because my approach was that I'm not a technologist. I'm just like a person and I was interested in leveraging it for my use. and I thought that was kind of an interesting POV versus other folks who were very into, you know, they were coders, they were computer science majors, they really knew a lot about tech. They wrote a lot about tech. And I was just like, I would just like this to enhance my life. I would like to figure out how to use a website. I would like to figure how to build a website. I would like to connect with ancestry.com and find long-last relatives. And it was a little more news you could use, I think. That's exactly the sort of orientation that we come at with our show. There are No Girls on the Internet. So much tech reporting and tech media either focuses on people who are super techy, right? Like I know the latest. I have the latest. I'm already totally in that world. Or it's kind of coming at it from a business perspective. What are these companies doing? What is Open AI doing? What is X doing? And it really leaves out this big group of people who are using tech every day or probably tech literate digital native. but there's not really tech media and tech stories that are really aimed at them if they don't consider themselves techies if they didn't, you know, get an engineering degree or something like that. And I do think that we should be making tech media and all kinds of media that really gets at that group and says, hey, even if you're not a techie, even if you're not a coder, you still have a story to tell about how technology shapes and shows up in your life. And this is the bulk of the people, right?

I mean, the thing, if you're looking at like a pie chart, these are most of the people are not coders and they're not people. who are going to be investing in AI startups, right? These are people who are going to try to figure out how it's going to impact them and how they're going to use it. So I completely agree with you on that. And I think the news sometimes falls short. A lot of news coverage of tech, right? Is your child cheating with AI versus, you know,

what are the really interesting things that you can do with AI? And so I feel like the news doesn't really go far enough. So I love that you do this show because I do think you need a lane for people who want to kind of embrace the technology but don't necessarily understand it fully. Soledad is the executive producer of the documentary The Perfect Neighbor, which tells the story of the tragic death of A.J. Owens, a devoted mother of four in O'Kala, Florida, who was shot and killed by her neighbor, Susan Lawrence. Susan was that kind of neighbor, the one everyone in the community

knew to avoid. She called 911 over and over again to file complaints about the neighborhood kids, including AJ's, who were simply playing or maybe being a bit loud in the grassy shared space near all of their homes. Susan would hurl slurs at the children and even throw objects at them. Police officers would show up, talk quietly amongst themselves, and leave with the impression that something was off about Susan, but even after all those visits, nothing really changed. Everything escalated when AJ knocked on Susan's door to confront her about taking her son's iPass. sad. Susan fired a gun through her locked steel door, killing AJ, and would later claim that she feared for her life. The perfect neighbor has sparked widespread discussion online and renewed scrutiny

of so-called stand-your ground laws, how they function in practice, and the real impact they have on communities. I've wanted to talk to you for the long, for most of my life, but the thing that made me want to reach out to you was watching the new documentary on Netflix that you made with director, Gita Gond Beer, the perfect neighbor. I don't know that I have, one, had a reaction to a documentary like this before and, two, seen a reaction to a documentary like this before. And I watch a lot of documentaries. I know this is a story that you've been following since it first happened. What was it about this story that you were drawn to? Yeah, from our perspective, I mean, as a journalist, right, that's a story that crosses what we would say, the wires.

although they're not really wires, but you read about it and you just think, oh my gosh, this is a horrible stand your ground case. I've covered a lot of those stand your ground case in Ocala, Florida, which is about four hours from where I am right now. For Gita, it turned out that her husband's family was friendly with the woman who was the victim. So AJ Owens was one of those such a close friend almost considered like family, we're all family. And so I think what she has said is that, When this happened, she was just like, what do we do? You know, she's a filmmaker. We're journalists, Rose R.C. is my producer and I. So we're big in, you just go, go. Just send someone go, start covering it. And so I think once that police body cam footage became something that had been gathered from the lawyers, right? This became, as a criminal case, became gathered from the lawyers. Suddenly you realize, like, this could be a really interesting view. to tell the story. The editor is a young woman named Vidi Diana Lieberman, and she's fantastic. And Gita laughs about how, at one point, you know, in the film when you have everybody coming to the scene of the ultimate crime, there's like 20 police. So keep in mind, everyone has a body cap. 20 body cams.

No one's actually shooting, right? They're just capturing. And the editor has to sort of sort through off of a giant disc or all this has just been dropped and figure out what matches with what? How do you put it together to tell a story? So it's really a tremendous feat. I mean, Gita obviously is a fantastic editor and just everything she does is fabulous. And Bury as the director also just really fantastic work. So the perfect neighbor is not your typical documentary. There are no talking heads, no narrator guiding you through the story. Instead, everything unfolds through raw surveillance. Police body

cam video, security footage, interrogation room recordings. It creates this unsettling, unblinking view of the case, showing everything from the immediate aftermath of the murder itself to the disturbing reality of AJ's killer simply living her life and moving in with family instead of being arrested. We aren't told what happened. We see it, and that makes it all the more chilling. Do you have any sense of how the decision was made that the film was going to be

almost entirely constructed through that kind of surveillance footage, whether it's body cam footage or the ring camera footage that we see. Yeah, I think generally you always start with, well, so how do we do this? And I think for Gita and she's talked about this, that, you know, once it became clear that you could almost do it as a thriller, right? It actually reads as a true crime story. You watch it unfold. And even though you start with the ending and then you backtrack, you actually, it unfolds like a thriller. And Gita's, also an editor herself. That's how she got her start. So I think she really saw it that way. And once you had the body cam footage, I think it really helped to do something that as reporters, we never do, right?

Whenever there's a stand your ground case, and I've covered a handful of them, you go in the aftermath, right? You interview people in the aftermath, and you pick and choose who, when it's the police POV, it's not my POV. It's not Gita's POV. It's not VRI's POV. Right? This is just from body cam. And so I think it gives you a really interesting perspective. I think a lot of people have said to me they felt like it was much more true, that they didn't, they didn't doubt like, oh, is this a spin? Because the police were not shooting for us or anybody. They're just wearing body cams. And so I think it's a really interesting look at a story that unfolds in a terrible, terrible, deadly way. And you can see step by step because, of course, the police have been called for basically two years of these interesting. terrible interactions and minor interactions, right?

Some kind of, in a lot of ways, stupid interactions that just escalated and escalated until Susalorins shot her neighbor through her locked door. So when we think about these stand your ground cases, so much of them, and especially, you know, in the lead up to you and then after the Trayvon Martin incident, so many of them are these sensationalized headlines that really kind of, the conversation. just felt, feels very incendiary to me, right? It's just this splashy headline. You might get right wing talking heads on TV. But the film really to me kind of demonstrates what it would actually look like. All of the heartbreaking, horrifying details of what these cases would actually look like.

And I wonder, do you feel that that was an argument that was trying to be made in this film of like, oh, people think that you should be able to stand your ground. And if you feel threatened, you should be able to shoot anybody through a closed door. This is what it would actually look like if that was the case. I think it's always important to show things as they are, right? I mean, for me, documentaries are about getting in there and saying, this is actually what it is. This is how it unfolded. This is the ridiculously small incident that really kept spiraling and spiraling and spiraling, right? It's, it's, this is what exactly happened and you can see it. And so, to me, I think that's really important.

It allows you to sort of help people, again, see, not in the aftermath, but is unfolding what exactly is happening. And I don't think people really, you know, someone's asked me the other day, you know, do you think you'll help people change their mind on stand your ground? I was like, I think most people don't really even know what stand your ground really is. Right? They don't necessarily know it's a law, you know, but it's different in different states. But most people don't really know exactly what it is. And so for me, I think it's a really helpful way to understand. that this woman is not arrested, right, after there is a shooting.

She kills her neighbor. She shoots through her locked door. There's no, there's no guess about who did it, right? There's nobody trying to figure out, oh, my God, who was the perpetrator? And yet, she gets picked up by her family and she goes away. She's not in jail. Why is that? Stand your ground, right?

Allows them to do an investigation to see, you know, Ditchie actually fear for her life. And Susan certainly has had enough training, if you will, right, Googling. to know that one of the things you claim and stand your ground is, I feared for my life. I feel for my life. I felt unsafe. I feared for my life. So I think all of that is a really fascinating insight into, as you say, right, how these things actually unfold in real time. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

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Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. I don't even really know how to ask this, but in watching the movie, I, it, the community reminded me of the neighborhood where I grew up, right? a bunch of kids running around all the time, probably also being loud and obnoxious, I'll own that myself. A lot of adults who all look out for the kids, and that's just the community that you have. And having grown up in a community like that, I know that it's like a precious thing.

It's like I'm able to look back so fondly on my youth because that's where I was the kind of community I was lucky enough to grow up in. I don't even know how to word it. I think that one of the things Susan was actually mad at was that she lived in a place where it was, It was a multiracial community where folks got along and folks looked out for each other. And there was something about that that drove her that she could not stand. What do you think about this? Yeah, no, I don't think you're wrong. I mean, clearly, right, she would use racial slurs with small children.

So there was some major issue that she had around her neighbors, around race. Yeah, you know what I thought was so interesting is that you often hear like, this is a calm, quiet neighborhood, multiracial community. But to see it, right, to see how the. police interact with the kids to see how the police are dapping the dad and the white mom when they ask, so which, you know, which kids are yours? And she says, well, they're all mine. Yeah. And she's not kidding. And she's like, in this neighborhood, we all kind of take care of everybody. And then to see that collapse, right, after the shooting, that sense of, togetherness, that sense of, hey, the police are working with the community and everybody

gets along. It's pretty much gone. Because they had something good that is like rare and hard to find. They really had something good. Something great, I would argue, right? And again, I think the things that surprised me were like, oh, this is a community where everybody's just hanging out and getting along. Number one. Number two, here's a community where the police are constantly trying to figure out, yeah, we actually think this lady's a little bit of a, you know, crackpot. But we got to tell you guys, you know, try to keep it down a little bit.

But on the other end, they're kids, they're doing kids things. It could be much worse. They're just playing. At one point, the little girl who says, you know, we're 11, you know, because like, yes, they're small children. And we know that, you know, especially kids of color are often perceived to be older and more dangerous and more worldly, et cetera, et cetera. So I think there is a sense you really see like kids playing in the neighborhood a lot.

So, yeah, you just, all those things surprised me when I first saw the video. I was like, oh, I don't know what I thought the police would be doing. know how young they were, how willing they were to go back and forth and try to kind of maintain the peace, if you will. Susan would call the police constantly, but, you know, the neighbors never called the police on Susan. Never once. You know, it was obvious to everybody that Susan was a big problem. There are so many red flags. And the way that the police talk about her among each other, where they're like, oh, it's her again. She's crazy. Is there a sense from the neighbors, do you think that, I mean, I'm not even sure legally if there was anything to be done,

but frivolous call after frivolous call, I do get a sense of, I'm happy that the police were so cool with the kids and the families. But at a certain part of me is like if they had done something to let Susan know that this behavior wasn't okay, perhaps we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. Yes, really an interesting question. I don't have this, have had this discussion a lot, right, where people say the police should have done something. And I think the rejoinder to that is no one ever called the police on Susan, right? I mean, not one. No one even said, listen, I'm sick of her calling the police on us. This is not okay.

She's obviously a problem. Do they just go and arrest people? Are the calls really frivolous? They go, they talk. They, you know, there's clearly some kind of a dispute. They break it up for the most part. They move on. Yeah, it would be amazing if the police had said, we see this problem. And I think it really underscores the point of what's being discussed with the standard ground laws, right? Like how does a person who absolutely positively is a living, breathing red flag get access to three guns, right? How is that possible? How is it possible to know, this lady has a lot of guns? Maybe we should rethink the fact, right?

No, never happens. And so I think it is a classic sense of, you know, the person who is the perpetrator is the one who's constantly calling the police. the other people who will end up being the victims never call the police. And the people who really suffer at the end of the day are those folks who always suffer in stand-your-ground laws, the people who are victimized. Susan shot and killed AJ through a locked steel door while AJ's young son stood beside her. And afterward, Susan was not immediately arrested. She claimed protection under Florida's Stand-Your-ground law, which allows a person to use force, even deadly force, if they reasonably believe that they're facing an imminent threat without any duty to retreat.

Investigators later discovered that Susan had Googled Stand Your Ground Laws before the shooting, suggesting that she wasn't actually fearing for her life, but rather setting up the killing by researching exactly how to frame her defense. What do you think about the conversation that we're currently having about things like Stand Your Ground Laws? Just recently there was that horrible situation in Indiana where a cleaner came to the wrong house, knocked on the door, and when she knocked on it, a man shot and killed her through the shut door. And the case was expected to test stand your ground laws in Indiana, but ultimately that man was charged because prosecutors were like, listen, shooting somebody through a shut door simply because they knocked on it does not meet the requirements for stand your ground.

Even if that person thought, well, I'm defending my home because this person knocked on my door. And I don't know. I just think that the conversation around crime has gotten so out of control that when these things happen, frankly, I don't expect people to take a step back and say, well, wait a minute. Should we have a culture where it's normalized and okay to just shoot through a door and ask questions later? It's crazy. And again, there have been so many of these stories. You and I could tick off, probably just off the top of our heads without even having to Google it, five or six recent cases where someone's been shot or killed. or both, you know, because of a, you know, someone claiming, stand your ground. And I think that person who does it feels justified, right? They feel like I can protect my home. And if I feel even slightly afraid,

even if it's just someone pulling into the wrong driveway, even if it's someone looking at for the wrong house, even if it's someone who's just gone to the wrong place, accidentally I am justified in shooting that person and killing that person. So, yeah, it's bizarre, right? I think it's crazy that we've gotten here and what you really see. And there's a slide at the end of the documentary. that points out, you know, the people who really suffer from stranger ground laws are people of color.

You know, those are the people who, I don't have any proof for this, but I am very confident that if Susan had been a black woman and she had shot a white lady through her locked door, she would have been arrested on the spot, right? There was good. There was no question who did it. They weren't looking for the shooter. The idea that she was able to be free is obviously you see in the film, what sets everybody and just, you know, off and makes them very angry about what potentially could happen. And so the family and the neighbors have to really start marching and calling attention to the crime because it could just, like others, you know, become that salacious, talking head football that is, you know, at some point stops being focused on the case and starts being

focused on the chaos. The reaction to the film has been intense. One moment, that's been particularly talked about online is a harrowing scene where AJ's children break down after learning that their mother has been killed. It, honestly, it is one of the most gut-wrenching things I have ever seen on screen. It was a tragedy. And the way AJ's family has responded

echoes the tragedy of Emmett Till. In 1955, 14-year-old Emmett Till was falsely accused of whistling at a white woman while visiting family in Mississippi. He was lynched and brutally mutilated. His mother, Mamie Till, made the courageous and history-altering decision to hold an open casket funeral, saying that she wanted the world to see what had happened for themselves, saying, there was just no way I could describe what was in that box, no way, and I just wanted the world to see.

Photos of Emmett Till's body were published in black publications like Jet and the Chicago Defender, sparking national and international outrage. One photograph from Jett, showing Mamie Till at the funeral, standing over her son's mutilated corpse, was named by Time as one of the 100 most influential images of all time. It ran with the caption. Quote, for almost a century, African Americans were lynched with regularity and impunity. Now, thanks to a mother's determination to expose the barbarousness of this crime, the public could no longer pretend to ignore what they couldn't see.

So while the scene of AJ's children learning about their mother's murder is deeply harrowing, it was included because AJ's family wanted the truth to be told for everyone to see for themselves, just like Mamie Till. The scene that I don't know if I'll ever

stop thinking about it, the scene when we see AJ's children being informed that their mom has been killed. I mean, I had to stop the movie to sob because I was unable to continue watching. I've never seen a scene quite like that. I've seen some folks say, like, oh, this was too much. We as the audience should not have been led into a moment like that.

What do you think about that? I would say two things. The first is what Gita has said in her conversations, and we've spent a lot of time with AJ's mom, Pamela Diaz, who's in the film as well, but has also been, I've been lots of panels with her, and she's done a lot of traveling with the dock as you go to various film festivals. And she very clearly, has said she wanted to, she saw this sort of as a, a Mamie Till moment, right? Like, that there was this opportunity to show the actual horror of a horrible thing. So that's one thing. So it really did come with the permission, if you will, of family. Number two, I think that off of that, this is a documentary about a killing. And I don't think it's

fair to do a documentary about a killing and then say, but actually, we're not going to get to the killing. I just think the way AJ died was horrible, and I think the audience needs to understand, the impact on her children, on the community, on everything is palpable. And I think people have to understand that. And I don't know that it's a good thing to clean that up, to say, this part's kind of hard to watch. So you know what? We're just going to clean this up for you. I don't, I don't think so. I don't, this doc is about a killing and about a really terrible that causes great harm to people of color. And I think that the being, the general public being really removed from what this policy

actually translates into the real world harm on children, on moms, on communities, on families. I think people do need to see that to understand. Like it is a public policy decision or conversation in addition to being like a personal conversation. Absolutely. And also it's, this is. a documentary about a killing, a horrible killing, and we get to see the before, the middle, and the after, and the aftermath. And so I think it would be a very weird decision to sort of say,

no, no, no, this part, we're not going to show. Yeah. And as you said, I think it should be made clear that the family wants this story told. The family is out there. They, they, they, her surviving family members are adamant about this story being told. And I don't know, to me feels like it's a way, like honoring their wishes is important. Honoring that legacy is important. Yeah, I think it would be very different if they said, oh, absolutely, you know, please don't. I think that would lead to very challenging conversations, frankly, right? I think you'd have people who said, listen, we should honor the family. Other people say, hey, this is a story about a killing and try to figure it out. But no, the family was very much, I think, on board with the

idea of like, people need to see how horrible this is. They need to see the impact. There's also an impact campaign is called Standing in the Gap. I don't know if you know about that. And, you know, because again, something people don't realize, once the press goes, once the pastors go, once the lawyers go, you have families that are hurting that actually needs support, right? They're just left.

And so I think, like, being very clear and true and accurate about that is very important. And keeping the conversation going, you know, once the film is no longer, you know, the thing everyone is talking about, making sure that that conversation can continue and that we continue to educate folks on what these laws actually look like and the way that they actually impact people. Right, and who they impact the most. You know, you used to be this journalist who was really known for anchoring mainstream news outlets like CNN.

But more recently, you're making these important documentaries through your production company and the production companies of others like Gitas. Do you feel like you have more freedom to tell stories in a different way, the way that you maybe couldn't if you were still anchoring mainstream news outlets? I think the real difference is that you just get a lot of time. So if you're able to sell a dock and you get a buyer and you have a good story and you're sort of able to go ahead and produce the dock, you get to really kind of wrap a lot of time around a story.

Whereas in Daily News, as you know, you're just nonstop talking, talking, talking, talking. You might have a little bit of time to kind of give some context. But often you don't, especially in live cable news. And so what I've liked, I mean, I love doing cable news, but I really have liked the time. You know, you're not giving people a 10 second soundbite and saying, you know, here, let me explain the story to you. Here's their soundbite. They're giving it, right?

We get to tell the entire story over a fairly long period of time. So you really understand the context. And I think in cases where, as people don't trust journalists as much, you know, day after day, we're looking at a Pew Research study that I said, something like 44% of Americans say they don't trust journal. I'm a terrible number. I like the idea of being out of it. Just, you know, like we're not in it. There's no, I'm not in the middle of it saying, here's my perspective on this story.

And I met with these people, right, is just this is how it. it went down with the police who were called to the scene. And so I think that's actually really part of the reason the film is doing so well is that people believe it. You know, they just don't think there's an agenda. There's no, here's how I feel about it. Here's how Gita feels about it. Here's how message pictures feels about it. Right?

It's this is what happened. And we're going to show it to you fully. So I think that's a real plus. And it goes back to what you were saying about the choice to use a lot of, or mostly police, surveillance footage and ring camera footage and interrogation footage that those the facts speak for themselves, right? We see you, you weren't, it's not like Gita was there on the site with cameras filming a story for a certain perspective. It's just what happened. And there's not really, no one can say like, ah, this seems like women of color were biased for a certain perspective here.

It's just what happened. Yes. case in point, one of Soledad's latest projects is a new short documentary called The Devil Is Busy, now streaming on HBO Max. The film follows a day in the life of Tracy, the head of security at a Georgia abortion clinic, and the relentless work that she does to keep the clinic operating safely. We watch Tracy begin her day at the clinic with a prayer, navigate confrontations with anti-abortion protesters who are such a constant presence at the clinic that Tracy knows them all by name, and support the clinic's clients, many of whom have traveled overnight from out of state due to increasingly restrictive abortion laws. The documentary offers a powerful, ground-level humanizing view of the challenges faced by those

working to provide reproductive health care in our current landscape. We kind of had the similar strategy with The Devil Is Busy. Gita is one of the directors on that doc as well, because she's amazing. So, you know, same thing, right? No one's in it directing the traffic. No one's picking. I'm going to pick this person and we're going to lead with this.

You know, it is the story of woman's day. A woman who's kind of complicated and contradictory and an interesting character that you don't see a lot, right? A deeply religious woman who's the security guard at an abortion clinic. Usually the deeply religious people are the people who are the protesters out kind of on the street making all the noise. And so we really like that. We just, you know, we're looking at this story through,

through her eyes, Tracy's journey is what tells us what happens. I'm not interviewing anybody. The director of that, along with Gita, is Crystal in Hampton, who we do tons of projects with. And again, I guess what I would also point out was a complete sidebar, but it will be interesting to you. So often in TV news and journalism and even film of any kind, there's this idea of like, if we could only just find the black people,

if we could just find the people of color. And I just want to say, as I'm naming them, I'm like, a woman of color, black director, you know, Sam Pollard, black executive, like, it's just when you're really intentional, it's not that hard. So that's a complete sidebar to what we're talking about. But for me, every project we've done, we've been so intentional about finding and centering directors. And Gita is just a really, she's kind of an amazing mentor because what she does is she takes people and she sort of grows them. And then she'll say, okay, now you're ready to be the.

director on this or you're ready. So we're starting another project with another one of the young women. That's anybody who's younger than me, young women who, you know, will be directing this project for us, right? But really was kind of grown up, if you will, under Gita. And I just love people who are so aggressive about not just mentoring and saying, I'm going to give you some, you go, girl, going to give you some good words of advice, but like, now we slot you here. Now you need experience doing this. Now you actually need this. Now you're going to do this. And she's very intentional about it. And I have always really appreciated that because a lot of people talk about it, but very few people actually do it, as you know. How did you and Gita start working together?

That's such a good question. It's been such a long time. I'm sure I'm going to get our like origin story wrong. I don't remember the real story, but we were working on a couple of other projects before this one. And, you know, she just has an amazing track record. You know, you Google her her CV and you'll be blown away. I think this year she's got three projects that are all up for awards. I mean, she's remarkable. But again, I think she can do that because she has a lot of support and a lot of people who are working on these projects with her who she trusts implicitly. But we started working on a project actually about young people who are hungry in college. We had bet this woman, a friend who ran the journalism department at a school. And she said, you know, some of the students are sleeping in the

journalism office. And she thought they were just kind of like crashing there on a late night, but they actually had no housing, that they were hungry. And another woman did a study, which she's kind of the center of our doc, Sarah Goldgrabb. And she was saying that, you know, originally when she did her study, she thought it was kind of like the sad story of a handful of students who were just in a terrible 50%, 50%, 50% percent, 5% of students have had food and security in college. Like, that's insane. And so we decided to do that project. And I think Gita's strategy in telling that story was it just made for a beautiful, beautiful doc.

So, you know, every single thing that we have done together has just been a home run. I don't know. Thinking about some of the projects that I know that you all have worked on together, I've obviously seen the perfect neighbor, I've seen The Devil is Busy. It strikes me as the kind of topics that are so important that definitely impact traditionally marginalized people. So subsequently they're not told, you know, the way that they maybe should be. We don't run into a lot of people. Yes. I used to say that all the time.

Someone would say to me, you know, when we started doing our Black and America documentaries for CNN, we done for about nine, nine or ten years. And I would just say, you know, what I liked about it was you just didn't run into people, you know, that John Bonae Ramsey, it was me and 99 other reporters, you know, doing the 10-year anniversary of the murder of this four little girl. But when it comes to these complicated social issues, you know, often you're just out there alone reporting them, which is unfortunate because I think they're really important. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. But they're open to change. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to you. Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicel Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star, Laila. Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you,

but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladecki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world, Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning.

It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey.

I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levin this plant to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Soledad makes documentaries about important issues like stand your ground and reproductive justice, topics that many people are probably used to say. being addressed in quick segments on the news. But documentary filmmaking allows for a deeper exploration, not just of the issues themselves, but the real people at their center. Do you think there are stories that lend themselves very well to documentary, like actually telling someone's story and then you see them and you hear them in their own words? Yeah, I mean, I do, but I almost could argue that

for every story, right? If you have a good character, right, the thing, I hate the word character, because it makes it seem very fake. But if you have a good central person that you're following, right, that you have access to that story and you have a really compelling person, then you've got a great doc or even a great short story. I mean, I just think you just need those elements to be pretty amazing. And then, yeah, I think people can speak for themselves. It's why I love documentaries.

But I like a lot of forms. I like podcasts a lot. I love 60 minutes. I love, you know, I just like, I like news. Sometimes I feel unfulfilled because I think, you know, giving people a minute 20 on a story that really needs a lot more context is sometimes frustrating. But I like all sorts of platforms. Side note, I loved your IHeart podcast about JFK. Yep, Soledad likes podcasts so much that she also makes those two.

She did a 10-part series exploring Who Killed JFK with Rob Reiner. Yes, that Rob Reiner, who first came to prom and as the son-in-law on the 70s CBS sitcom All in the Family and went on to make truly iconic films like, This Is Spinal Tap, Stand By Me, The Princess Bride, when Harry Met Sally,

and my personal favorite, The First Wives Club, and pretty much every other movie that you probably liked in the 80s and 90s. It was really well-dug. Thank you. Wasn't that a great podcast? Oh, my God. Plus, I love Rob Reiner.

It was amazing. You two should, like, I don't know. Take the show on the road, right? That's when I got to call him and tell him that. Too bad he's got this other gig that the movie director thing he does. I guess he's working on Spinal Tap 2, which will be amazing, of course, because Spinal Tap 1 was amazing. But, yeah, that was a great project. But I have to tell you something, he was awesome.

Like, he just is the kindest night. He was just so complimentary, wonderful to work with the nicest human being to everybody. As you know, sometimes people come in and, you know, if they're a big mucky muck, they might not be the nicest to, you know, somebody who's, you know, who's recording them or if something's going wrong and we can't figure it out, you know, and it's taking a little time. He just, you could not ask for a cooler, nicer, more wonderful human being than Rob Reiner. It was such a pleasure to work with him.

I literally enjoyed every moment of it. That makes me so happy to hear, you know, they say don't meet your heroes, but I'm happy. Sold out of Ryan and Rob Reiner. Very nice people. I've got some other names for you that I'll tell you not to meet, but Rob Reiner is amazing. He was amazing. And I just, I don't know, I just love watching people who are kind to the person who's taking in his audio, who's amazing to the AP, who's great to the PA, who's like, anybody need water? I just love that, you know, because often people, as you know, in this business are really not.

And so it was amazing. And I did. I loved him and he was my hero. My dad, he was my dad's favorite character. Of course, you know, we watched all in the family. So, like, you talked about, you know, your mom, if your mom was still alive, she'd be impressed. by our interview. My dad, my dad would be done. If he were still alive and he knew that I was doing a project with Rob, like, that would be it. He'd be like, now, now I can die because she's made it.

My baby went to Harvard, she's been on TV, but now, this is it. That doesn't care, doesn't care, doesn't care, doesn't care. Now, yeah. Oh, you know, I, one of the, kind of to wrap up here, I was reading your, your comments to variety about just the state of, journalism and media. And one of the things that we focus on here at the podcast is especially things like miss and disinformation. And I feel like, I don't know, part of me, I jokingly have said, I feel like we have lost the fight, you know, we gave it a good shot. We got to take the L. Sometimes people ask me like, so what do you do? And I'm like, I honestly don't know. I don't, I look at, I mean, I used to, so in a lot of time on Twitter, but I find it really

scary to Ford videos and things, because I just don't, can't verify if their true AI is so, good and can be so deceptive, frankly, that it's just, I don't, you know, there's so many things that I just don't know and there's so much information coming across the transom. It's really hard to follow. So I try not to weigh in on things that I haven't specifically covered and spent time on because I don't want to be that person who passes along things that are inappropriate and, you know, and just untrue. But it is a crazy time and it is, I don't see a near future where it improves. I mean, I was going to ask if you, when you think about the future of journalism and media,

are you hopeful about where we might be going? It sounds like maybe not so much. I mean, I think disinformation and misinformation is a different category and journalism generally, which is also struggling at this moment, as you well know. But yeah, I think the history of journalism has been like this, right? We've had really highs and lows. And so I think there's lots of, I think there are great journalists out there who are doing really good work.

I think it's a very challenging time for a host of reasons and with a host of people they're trying to interview and people they're working for and people they're trying to put on TV. So I think it's a bad time for journalists, but I do think there's always these ups and downs, you know, where people love journalism right now. People love their local news. They trust their local news. You know, and yet local news is, you know, there's local news stations and papers are dropping every day. Every day. They disappear. So we have to solve a bunch of problems, including monetization, before we can say, like, yes, journalism is going to be saved. Because, frankly, a lot of the garbage is very, you know, worth it. You know, it's just not expensive. It's cheap. And to do good reporting is expensive. And so, you know, I understand why people pick the cheap, talking heads, yelling at each other version. It's easier and it's cheaper.

And I think it speaks to the model that you were just talking about with documentary where you can spend a long time telling a story. You can tell a story over an hour and change or two hours and people are going to rock with you. You can, I mean, I love documentary. A weekend spent watching documentaries is a good weekend for me, but I know not everybody feels that way. But the fact that you told a story about stand your ground walls and it was everybody was talking about it. It was the thing that people were talking about. I don't necessarily see news stories on the news where people are moved in that way. So I do think it's, it's.

The last time I saw that, I would say Katrina, right? Like if you could think of a time where everybody was talking about a thing, was Hurricane Katrina. And it was a time, I was telling someone yesterday that we were coming back. When I was covering Katrina, we'd spend a month in New Orleans and a month out, you know, back and forth. My co-anchor would go in and back and forth. And I remember we were coming from. through the Baton Rouge airport. So I'm leaving at the end of my month. And we haven't showered because, of course, there was no showers. And we're all really dirty. Although my hair does get

better, the dirtier it is. So I was actually fine on that front. But we're just gross. And I remember I had my CNN cap on because, of course, everything was gross. And we got a standing ovation. We got a standing ovation in the Baton Rouge, Deep South Airport, CNN. And I just remember thinking, like that's because we are doing the thing that we're supposed to do, right? We're getting a standing ovation, not for me or any of the people. We're getting a standing invitation because they feel like, yes, that was what we needed you to do. Yes, that. And I think the same thing with perfect neighbor, right? It's like, yes, thank you. Thank you for helping us understand this story. Thank you. I hate the way that journalists are demonized today, but that I think that story, people do

actually want to have their story told authentically and thoughtfully and truthfully. People do want to hear these stories. I don't know. I think it's very easy for me personally to get caught up in. I'm so angry about the way that people trashed journalists. And I feel that way, but not buying into it that everybody feels that way because people do, there is trust. When stories are told well and authentically, there is trust. Listen, when we were doing Black in America for CNN, the number of people are like, why would we do this?

You guys never come here. You never come to our neighborhood, you know, and it was a lot of work to get people to understand. Here's what we're trying to do. It's a documentary six out, you know, but I get it. So, I mean, some of the lack of trust is earned, right? It's earned. And when people say to me, so how do you get back trust? I always say that it's like the bad boyfriend theory. You know, there's no baby, you got to trust me, right? It's, it is, you have to be trustworthy, right? You've got to show up again and again and again and be trustworthy. Like, there's no other way to get people's trust and to do that. And so I really think that that, you know, that's what's going to happen. So to some

degree, you know, journalism has made some big errors and lost some trust. I mean, I remember when I worked again at CNN, which is a long time ago now. It's probably been almost a dozen years. I don't know if you remember this. They had this breaking news. You know, it was when they had the app and you had the app and it was Britney Spears had cut her hair. Do you remember that? And it came across the CNN breaking news, the breaking news app that's Britney Spears had cut her hair. You're just like do you realize how much you undermine when you're doing other news about how there has been a tsunami or there has been a hurricane or there has been a shoot, right? Like you realize when you put Brittany in this thing, God bless her.

She seems like a lovely person, but it is not breaking news that she cut her hair. And so I think to some degree, right, we have lots of examples of how we have undermined ourselves, frankly. And it trains your audience to tune out. It's like, oh, I don't need to, I get a million of these notifications. Who cares? You know? Exactly. Exactly. One of my last questions for you is just, what does it feel like to see the response to the work that you've helped put out into the world? I mean, the response has been huge. What is that like?

You know, it's really, really nice. But I will say that sometimes you do great projects that nobody really sees. You started talking about the site. The site was a great show. We literally had six viewers. We were in hash marks, which means it didn't have enough viewers to actually count them. I love doing that show. That was a great show, right? So ahead of its time. But no one watched it.

And so, you know, I guess it's always great when the work that you've done and you're associated with is seen, because that's awesome. You just want people to see it, especially in documentaries. You want people to see it. So it's amazing. It feels great. But also, I think there's just a zillion other projects. of course, since it's award season for docs, you end up watching everybody else's dock, too. So all I do is watching docs all the time.

There's a zillion fantastic projects out there, a zillion. And so I would say people should be more like you and learn to love docs, maybe more than watching a lot of, you know, talking heads rotating through every half hour. Oh, my gosh. I've said it on the show before. There's no truer, better medium things, like actual stories that have been told and happened, will always be more interesting, more layered, more complex than anything anybody could come up with. Documentary is where it's at. Yep, yep, I agree. From your mouth to God's ears, let me say.

Soledad O'Brien, I'm completely geeked out. Thank you so much for being here. It's an honor. I have chills. Where can people follow you? What do you've got? Like, how can people keep in touch to you? We always have projects we're doing. So we, obviously, we are on the, um, award circuit now, which means we're doing a lot of screenings, et cetera, et cetera. It's been really fun to go to some of these awards shows because I'm getting to pull out some old gowns and, you know, squeeze in on them. So if anything that you want to follow around, that kind of stuff, I'm on Instagram, of course, at Soledat O'Brien, one word. I don't do a lot on X. People sometimes reach out. So every four weeks I go in and respond to a million people who I've ignored. So apologies

to anybody's reaching out to me on X. But it's just, It's a little bit. I feel like everything you post to post later becomes something about white supremacy. Yeah. I finally, like for my own sanity, I was like, you know what? I cannot do this consistently. So I hop in and out. And yeah, follow me on Instagram.

You'll see a lot of what we're doing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions, about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward.

At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano.

It's our favorite time of the year. on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow.

Then after that game seven, Marquis come until he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest.

When I did podcasts, I wear my sleep masks. I like where this is going. So if you guys will indulge me. That's right. The incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We've got two.

I'm ready to go right up to present day. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Ashanti Plummer from Fudd Around and Find Out. This week, AZ Fud and I sat down with Step and Curry. Step talks pressure, confidence, and what it really takes to stay great. There's different categories, I guess, on like conditioning, shooting drills where you try to simulate kind of games. Look at her face.

We have a love-hate relationship with those because you know you're getting something out of it. You don't look forward to those days. Listen to Fud Around and Find out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.