There Are No Girls on the Internet - STRIKE! Writers and actors deserve fair pay! Actor Francesca Ramsey explains how studios weaponize tech against creatives

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

Hollywood screenwriters and actors have joined workers across the economy to demand better pay, better conditions, and better protections against encroaching technology. Because it’s not just about Hollywood - it’s about an entire country of working people who feel fed up with a dynamic where they get squeezed harder and harder to make someone else richer and richer.    Writer, actor, and producer Francesca Ramsey (Broad City! The Larry Wilmore Show! Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell!) says it’s about time. Technology has been a double edged sword for her. Her career in entertainment was launched on the Internet. But now she sees the ways that AI and streaming are being used by studio executives to push down wages and lock creatives out of profits.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should be able to make a living off of your work because somebody else is making a living. living off of your work. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's been a summer of strikes. And after days of bargaining last week, screenwriters are resuming negotiations

with the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers, or the AMPTP this week. Today is the Day of Solidarity, where labor supporters from across unions and sectors all rallied outside of Disney Studios to show their alliance and unity. Because it's not just about Hollywood. It's about an entire country of working people who are fed up with the dynamic where their work is commodified to make someone else rich. Americans from across industries and across the country are fighting for better contracts, better compensation, better working conditions, and importantly, better protections from encroaching technology like AI. Some of the clearest voices sounding the alarm about AI belongs

to creatives, both striking actors and screenwriters. want guardrails around how studios intend to use AI in writers' rooms and on sets. And for actor and writer Francesca Ramsey, technology has been kind of a double-edged sword. It's how she first started her career. But now, she sees the way it's being positioned to threaten the entire industry. My name is Francesca Ramsey, and I'm a TV writer, actress, and author, producer, contact creator, multi-hyphenage. That actually was going to be one of my first questions.

It's like, I don't know how to describe you because you do all the things. Like, is that how you describe yourself? Francesca kind of does it all. And it all started by being an early pioneer of the internet. Yeah. So I learned the phrase multi-hyphen it from someone else and it really spoke to me because I do have so many varied interest. And I've been really fortunate to have done a lot of really cool different jobs over the course of my career, especially because, considering I went to school and I just thought I was going to be an actress. That's what I wanted to do.

There was no social media when I was studying in college. Social media came up while I was in school. And so a lot of the work that I do, I didn't know what I would be what I would be doing. You've talked about how a lot of your early, like, online internet experiences have really shaped the person that you would become. I've read about how you would, you know, you didn't have a digital camera because it was the 90s, so you were like scanning in pictures to make these blogs. Did you ever see this activity leading to the career that you have now? No, absolutely not. I mean, I've always been techie. I went to computer camp when I was in middle school and I learned HTML and it was a really small camp.

There was maybe 20 kids and it was myself. one other girl. It was all boys. And my parents were encouraging, but I definitely remember friends and peers saying, like, what are you doing? Like, why do you care? I had a website that I uploaded, updated, and no one was reading it. It was just me. I had a bootleg of Photoshop that I got from a boy that I had a crush on. And I was like scanning my art and clipping together photos. It was just purely because I had a love for creating things. I didn't know. I could have never imagined where it would lead me to. So I really see you and a couple other folks of having this like, I see y'all as having this like very specific kind of trajectory where it was like all of

these very creative, very online young black women who were like of the culture, of the zeitgeist, who were making content online in the early. days, right, on platforms like for you, YouTube. And really now, it's like you all saw something that other people didn't see. And you got how to use it in a way that not everyone did. Like, how did that trajectory work for you in your career? It's so, thank you for saying that I, I think that's just always been me. I'll never forget. I think I was in, I think I was in middle school and I got a pair of Capri pants from like a thrift store. And, I think that's And I wore them to school and everyone was like, what's wrong with you?

Your pants are short. You're wearing high waters. What's wrong with you? And then like the next year, everyone was wearing capri pants. And I remember being like, you bitches all made fun of me, but I had capri pan. And I was like mad about it. I was really mad. It was like all the capri sets were very popular.

And I, that moment sticks out in my mind because I felt the same way when I've adapted to technology. I was on YouTube my senior year of college. I was going to school for graphic design. And I remember making these videos and my classmates being like, why? What, like, what do you get out of this? I was not making any money. I was not getting jobs because of it. It was truly just a hobby. And so I hope that people see that as inspiration for themselves. You know, you should follow things not necessarily because it's a trend, but because you have an interest in it and you have to know that when you are following your own path, there are always going to be people that don't get it. But it's your

path. And that's why you are following it. So it's really cool to see where the internet is at now. I mean, back in my day, you know, I would have to edit for hours. And now you can go on your phone and you can edit green screen in two seconds. I used to have to put up, you know, like hang the green screen, in my living room and make sure it was lit the right way because, God forbid, there's a shadow on the green screen is not going to grease here now. And now you just literally click a button. I feel, I feel like a boomer saying this, but I truly, it's mind boggling to me. editing on a phone? Never in my life did I think that everyone would be an influencer now. Everyone is a filmmaker. And I think it's really cool that it's democratized content creating. It's,

It's made it accessible for everyone, and I think that's how it should be. Today, Francesca is a successful writer and actor. You've seen her on shows like Broad City and Superstore. She's in both the Screen Actors Guild, or SAG, and the Writers Guild of America, or WGA. And both unions are currently on strike. Now, even though we might have this idea that the actors that we see on screen are all fabulously wealthy, Francesca says that it's not really the case. I had a conversation with somebody that I respect recently, and I was shocked that some of the things she was saying about the strike, I was shocked to hear.

And it was things like, well, you know, when I hear what Hollywood writers are making, it seems like good money to me. Like, why should they be, like, why should they be striking? Like, you know, I would love to make that kind of money. And I had this realization that I think that people might have a misconception that if you are in, involved in the entertainment industry that you're automatically, you're making millions of dollars and you're set. It's absolutely not true. I wish it was true. I mean, I, you know, I started online and then I got the opportunity to move into TV and a big part of my desire to move into TV was looking for stability. And I was very quickly surprised to learn that as fortunate as I was to transition,

into this career, it wasn't as stable as I thought it would be. And the money wasn't as good. And once I got into the career, all of my peers and coworkers were like, yeah, girl, it's hard out here. That's why we all have 80 jobs. That's why you see us on Instagram slinging, you know, teeth whitening strips. Like, I got to pay bills, you know. And the reality is for TV writers and actors, many of us are struggling to make ends meet. And the current streaming model is a big part of the problem. There are so many shows. There are so many platforms. And the audiences have noticed the change too. All the shows are getting shorter. You know, we used to have a show with 22 episodes. Now you might get one with eight or six. You're also noticing that more time is transpiring between seasons. So, you know, the kids on

on Euphoria, they've got to be grown by the time the show comes back, right? They were in high school and, you know, now he got a five o'clock shadow. That is a man. So all of those things are contributing to how much the creators and actors in these programs are getting paid. And then because of streaming, we often are not aware that we're not, we don't know how many views the shows are getting. So in addition to the residuals from the streamers being laughably low by comparison to network, we don't actually know like how much we're being screwed. They're like, here, just take this. And so the strike is essentially asking the networks to have transparency with us.

We want to make sure that the money that we are making off of our work is reflective of how the work is doing. Because if it takes it a year and a half before I get staffed on a show again, I should be making a portion of the profits that the show that I worked on is going to collect for the network and the CEOs. And the reality is, I don't believe any CEO deserves a $24 million salary when the writers and actors on the show are struggling to get qualified for their health insurance. That's just the reality. And so, yes, it is frustrating that people have this misconception about our industry, but that's the reason that you and I are having this conversation. And so many writers and performers are getting candid about the realities of our situation. There's a level of expectation that they have that is just not realistic.

And they are adding to a set of challenges that this business is already facing that is quite frankly very disruptive. So they're not being realistic? No, they're not. That's Bob Iger, the CEO of Disney, and he's talking about writers. You know, the actual people who do the work to make the things that he sells that make him rich. And frankly, I gotta say, it sounds like a pretty sweet grift to me. Bob Iger, who CNN reports as one of the highest paid CEOs in all of entertainment, can tell the people whose work makes him millions of dollars a year

that they're the ones who are being unrealistic when they ask for better treatment and better This is kind of a spicy take, and I'm curious for your thoughts. It's got to be some kind of a scam, right? Because I was watching that interview. I think it was Ted Sardonos, the CEO from Netflix, and he was like, the writers are just not being realistic. Oh, it was Bob Eiger, Disney. Bob Eager, Bob Eager. And I was like, yeah, I'm sure the dynamic where, like, you make $50 million a year from the labor and the creativity and the talent of other

people like maybe that is it possible that maybe that's not realistic. Sir, you never hung a light. You never wrote a script. You never did a rewrite. You ain't learned no lines. Like this is not a spicy take. Like what do you do? Like quickly tell me what you do. Yeah, it is, it's, it is just so that, that interview, I made a video about that because it was so like laughable and just showed how out of touch. she was to say those things. And I think that is a big crux of this issue. And you're seeing this with, you know, labor across the country, whether you work at UPS or whether you're a teacher or whether you're in health care, or oftentimes the people at the top don't understand the realities of the work, blood, sweat, and tears that their workers are putting into the business that

sustains them, whether you are working on the assembly line at Amazon or if you are staying up late doing rewrites on a script because they shoot tomorrow, you know? And so it's easy for the people at the top to say, oh, it's not realistic. It's not realistic to wait nine months between me getting paid for a job that I did successfully. And when we asked the studios, hey, you guys are historically late on payments. The studio's response was, well, we think paying on time would, you know, it wouldn't incentivize the writers. Sir, I got to pay my bills. One of the things I saw that I like screenshot it because I couldn't believe it was true where it was like the studios acknowledge that they do not pay on time. And they also say that having penalties to involve will also not make them pay on time. So you're not going to pay. It's just not going to happen. And again, to your point about about your friend, I think people see the big numbers and they're like, oh my gosh, this person got paid $100,000 for a script. Amazing. If the deal doesn't close for a year or two years, that's two years that you are waiting to get paid

that money. And in that time, you still are having to pay your bills, okay? Great, you made this money on a script. You don't get paid it all at front. It gets paid to you in thirds. You get a third when you start the job. You get a third when you turn that first draft in, and you get a third when you turn that last draft in. One of the things that we are asking for is hard timelines on that.

because what happens is you turn that script in and they go, we don't really like it. You got to do another draft. And you're like, okay, okay, do I get paid? No, no, no, no. You got to do another draft. We'll tell you when we're happy with the draft. It can take you months to another year to write that draft. And you are just hoping that on the other end, they're going to decide that it's good enough for you to get paid.

And then you still have to pay your agent, your manager, your lawyer, your business manager. and you get a set-side money for taxes. And you still have to pay all your other bills. And then if the movie or show goes on to make billions for the studio, you get nothing? I mean, the math is literally not nothing for me. I still think there's a grift happening because the fact that the streaming model does not have transparency into the numbers, I think any kind of situation where there is not transparency around numbers, something, someone is cheating somebody, somebody's being scammed. What's going on there? Do you think? Oh, yes. I agree. I think it's

one of two things or maybe a little bit of both. I think that the streamers have realized that they shot themselves in the foot by, you know, the arms race for everybody to have a platform. There are too many places to watch content. And the reality is the numbers, I think, on their end, are not what they're saying that they are. And so, you know, every week Netflix is like, this show is blown numbers out of the water. Every week there's a new record being set. But like, what is the record? Like, what's the record that's actually being set? We don't know. On the other end, I think that they don't potentially want to tell us the numbers, because if they did tell us the numbers, we would know how much we were being screwed. So again, I think it's a little bit of both. And that if the shareholders, for example,

how low the signups were, knew how low the numbers were on some of these shows, it would really potentially negatively affect these streamers. I guess their reasoning is because they are operating as tech companies in addition to studios, the numbers are proprietary information. That's such a grift. They're like, we can't tell you how it works because then you might start a streamer. I don't want to start a streamer. I just want to get paid. Yeah, that, that like, I mean, this is something that I find frustrating, but also confusing, is that it was the networks who chose to sort of pivot to the streaming model. And now that is the same model that they're blaming to be like, well, we can't pay people. We can't give you transparency because of this model that we all pivoted to.

Like, it's a very frustrating dynamic. Right. But Bob Iger can still make $24.2 million a year. Like, why is it that the people at the top can continue to profit? And again, this is not just unique to the film and television industry. We are seeing labor being taken advantage of across all industries. And the thing that I keep telling people is if you are seeing the writer strike and the actor strike and thinking, I don't make as much money, I should be making more money. I agree, you should be making more money to your labor should be. respected, you should be able to purchase a home after you've worked somewhere for X amount of years. You should be able to afford rent in the city that you live in off of the salary that you make. I don't care if you work in a fast food restaurant or if you are a secretary or if you wash cars. You should be able to make a living off of your work because somebody else is making a living off of

your work. This crabs in a barrel mentality is helping none of us. my paycheck is not taking money out of teachers' pockets. It's not. And absolutely teachers should be paid better. So my hope, and I am taking solace and seeing the solidarity that's happening across industries and from people outside of the entertainment community, that it's creating a level of class consciousness we haven't seen before where people are saying we deserve

and demand more. and I believe we should get it. And when it comes to the writers and actors, I believe we will. I think that that tide is kind of shifting a little bit because in the beginning of the strike, the sort of thing I heard so often was like, well, teachers don't make that much.

And it's something we talk about a lot on the show is like teaching the same forces are actively de-professionalizing and devaluing teaching as a career and turning it into like a gig commodity. So if you're angry about the teachers, you should be angry about the writers as well because it's the same dynamic that it's turning the work into a commodity.

1,000 percent. And I would also go a step further to say, when the teachers go on strike, y'all do the same thing to them. You get the summer. You get the summers off and you get to end work at two o'clock. And you're just looking at coloring books. Like they do the exact same thing. Well, you chose to be a teacher.

You could get another job. You know, again, it's this false equivalency. and you see it when we're talking about raising the minimum wage so that people that work in the food industry, for example, can keep a roof with their head. Well, you know, working at McDonald's was never supposed to support a family. That's supposed to be a job for teenagers. Okay, who is supposed to be working at McDonald's when the teenagers are at school? Right. Who is the business just supposed to close between school hours? Somebody has to do the job, you know? It's like that chicken or the egg thing. where it's like, well, go to college and then you'll be able to get a good job.

But then you go to college and get student loans. And then they're like, well, nobody told you to go college. You get student loans. You should go get, you know, you should go get an industry job. It's like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. And it ultimately comes down to a number of people wanting to look down on somebody else as if it secures their future. And the reality is it doesn't.

We all are struggling in the same capitalistic society, and we all deserve better. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah.

Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. Do you have a name suggestion?

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That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast's point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

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with that Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. It feels like we're at this crossroads with so many different industries

where the question is, should the powers that be be able to squeeze and commodify every, drop, every ounce of the work that we do, the talent that we have, the joy that we have in life, to make somebody else more money. And it feels like that seems to be the like big existential question that we're grappling with right now. Do you feel that sense? Absolutely. I mean, look, Twitter is a dumpster fire and I cannot give it up. I will be there like the last people

in the Titanic just watching it go down. But what I love about Twitter, is being able to hear from people across so many different communities that I would never normally get to interact with. And there really does seem to be a sentiment growing amongst people that are like, wait a second, the actors and writers can't earn a living, the teachers can't earn a living, the nurses can't earn a living, the people working in the restaurant are earning a living. Who is earning a living? People are like, I can't afford to put gas in my car. It's really expensive to buy groceries. I don't have no health care. What is going on? And again, to your question, a lot of people are connecting the dots. This is a universal struggle across all industries.

And a lot of times we are looking at each other and counting each other's coins when the reality is many of us are not able to make a living wage. And that's. what we're asking for. I don't need to be a millionaire. I don't need multiple homes. I just need to be able to keep the lights on where I live, you know, maybe go on vacation once a year. And I think that those are rights that should be afforded, again, to everyone. And it really does seem like many people are awakening to the fact that, by your own words, it's a scam. We are being scammed. And when you look at the kind of things that the WGA is asking for, it's so reasonable. Oh my gosh. Clearly nobody is asking for like, I want a private jet every year and a million dollars.

It's like, no, it's just the ability to like live, to just like, it shouldn't be a precarious, such a precarious situation just to live. You're, you're wanting to work and be able to like exist from that work. Like that shouldn't be asking that much. No, no, it really, really shouldn't. And again, I really encourage anyone who is confused about what we're asking for with the WGA or with SAG. All of our proposals are outlined very clearly on the website, sag afterstrike.org, WGA contract 2023.org. And you can see what we asked for. And you can see how the studio is countered. And I really, appreciate both of my unions because they have been so clear and transparent with the asks. They're written in plain English. Sometimes they might be a little confusing, like if you're not really up to date on some of the things we're asking for. But for the most part, it's pretty clear. And I would hope that any normal person could read them and say, yeah, that makes sense to me.

You know, one of the things for SAG, for example, is oftentimes when you book an acting job, you have to move to a different state or you might have to go to another country. You might have to go to Canada or might have to go the UK to film something. And what happens is once you move to that place, the studios consider you to be a resident of the new place that you are living. So they do not have to pay for accommodations. They don't have to pay for you to drive around, for example. That's all supposed to come out of your own check. In the meantime, you still might have to be paid.

paying rent in your home where you actually normally live. You might still be paying for your car payment, for a car you are not driving. And we said, hey, if I have to move to Canada for six months to film your little TV show, can you pay me a little extra money? And the studio is like, no, I don't think we could do that. The answer is no. What? What are you talking about? That is, that's basic. That's, again, it is, I've been in that situation. I've had to pick up and move for a job. And it's very exciting, but it's also stressful.

And this is not an uncommon experience. And again, it's not, we're not asking for a lot. It's all very reasonable. It's all very reasonable. And then when you add in like the salaries these CEOs make and you're like, oh, could Bob could like Ted Sardonos just like buy one less car? Like I feel like that I feel like that might cut it. Just can you hold off on buying a third boat?

Just you only got two boats. Do you need another boat? Probably not. Can you Airbnb in the Hamptons? Do you need to go to the Maldives? How about how about you stay in the U.S. this summer? Just this summer. I know one of the big things that WGA is striking for are stipulations around how AI will be used in writers' rooms.

WGA wants AI to be used only as a tool that can help with research or facilitate script ideas, but not as a tool to, like, replace a human writer. So this is like a bit of a pet peeve of mine. And I'm curious what you think. I don't think that we're in a place where AI fully repatrivalued. replacing human creatives and writers is a real possibility. I think that studios would perhaps love it if that were the way that it was. But I think that that's like a fantasy that is not here. And so I think this idea that we're going to,

that like it would even be possible to phase in AI in this way to replace human writers. You're still going to need human creatives. Like that's just how stuff gets made. And I wonder like, what do you think about the way that the threat that, of AI impacting the way that things get made? Like, how do you see that threat? Yeah, so our contract comes up for negotiation every three years. And so what we're asking for in terms of AI regulation, to your point, we might not have

the ability for AI to write a script today, but in two years, it might. In three years, it might. And so, you know, again, AI is a tool. the same way a car is a tool or final draft is a tool, right? The car is not what is getting you to the destination. You still have to drive the car. Like someone needs to still be there to operate the machinery. And by the same token with artificial intelligence, we are asking that AI is not learning how to write scripts based off of our work. So the way the AI works is that it learns based on whatever is inputted into it.

And there is a world in which the studio could have a studio-specific AI built for sole purpose of writing scripts. And the way that it would learn how to do that is you would feed its scripts. And the AI could say, all right, the cold open is 10 pages. And act 1 is 30 pages. And then act 2 ends on page 45. And then the whole script ends on 110. And you want this to be about a mother and a daughter.

who go to California and on the way they learn, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the AI could spit out like a bad first draft. It's not going to be good. It's going to have the skeleton of a story, and it's going to probably need somebody to go in and tweak it to your point. It's not going to be, you know, an award-winning film. But because our contract says that you get paid for a first draft in the second draft and the third draft, there is a world in which the studio could say, well, AI wrote the first draft. So you don't get paid for the first draft. You get paid for what's called a punch pass, which is essentially just going in and making

small little tweaks. And so what the WGA is asking for is to have some guidelines in place. But if we were to use AI for research, I need to know the name of every small town in California because I'm writing a script that takes place in a small town in California. and I want to make sure that I'm using the right information. AI is going to spit it out and I'm going to go, okay, cool, that's okay. We're not going to be okay with it learning how to write scripts. And again, AI is calling the internet.

It's not coming up with this on its own. It's essentially plagiarizing. And so that's what we're asking it not to do with our work. And the reality is when you are negotiating a contract, one side says, here's what I want, and the other side says, here's what I want. You go back and forth, and eventually you meet in the middle. The AMPTP refused to counter on certain things. They just said no outright. So whether it's AI or whether it's residuals or whether it's relocation fees, there are always going to be terms that are going to be adjusted because that's the nature of contract negotiation. You offer up some things that you think we're never going to get this, but we're going to use it as leverage for other things, because this thing is really important to us. And both sides have to make concessions. That's just what happens. And again, I really believe that the AI stuff is important.

But my hope and our belief in the negotiations process is that we'll come to an agreement that is suitable for both parties. And as is, no regulation of the, on AI is not okay for writers and it's definitely not okay for actors. And yes, and we are in a time right now where more and more writers, Sarah Silverman just recently joined this group, are suing like chat GPT and Open AI for copyright infringement for just like taking their intellectual property and being like, oh, it's mine now. So the idea that you don't need any guardrails concurrently happening while people are literally in court talking about, actually, AI, stole my copyrighted material.

It just doesn't work. It's like, obviously there need to be some guardrails. That's why these people are in court right now. Like, it's just like obvious. Yeah, and the fact that they didn't want to counter in any meaningful way, to me that says that they have plans to use this technology. For example, the 2007 strike was large. largely around the usage of our work with the internet. You know, YouTube was pretty new. And the

WGA was like, oh, we see this internet thing happening. Are you going to put our work on the internet? And if you do, are we going to get any money for this? This is really important to us. And the studios were like, no, you don't have to worry about that at all. Internet? This is nothing. Girl, then look what happened. So like, what? So now here we are in 2023. And we said, hey, this AI thing is a little scary. Can we have some regulations? And the studio said, what? AI, you ain't got nothing to worry about. They're lying. They are lying. I do not believe you. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriters, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open to change. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle.

age, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me, I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. bind. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think

iHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-4-4-i-heart to get started. That's 844-8-4-4-I-Hart. What's up, Sam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Earlier this year, actor Camico Glenn shared the residuals that she made from

in the hit Netflix show, Orange is the New Black, that explored life in a women's prison. The amounts were just a few cents per episode, adding up to a whopping $27. She wasn't alone. Her fellow castmates shared just how little they made from the show. Beth Dover, who played one of the prison's owners, said that in the end, she really didn't make anything, because she didn't live where the show was filmed, so she had to spend what little money she did make paying to fly herself out to shoot. So back in the day, Netflix was just a DVD rental company.

They'd send you loose DVDs slipped into these red and white sleeves in the mail, and maybe you'd never get around to watching the movie, but also you'd forget to send it back so you'd just be paying to keep a copy of Scott Pilgrim versus the world on loan. But when Netflix announced they were going to start making their own content and introduced streaming, they were onto something big. And Orange is the New Black was the show that helped them do it, and helped them compete with cable giants. Orange and New Black was a runaway smash success.

You just kind of had to be there to understand how big of a cultural phenomenon it was. Hackers stole the first few episodes of season five and made ransom demands of Netflix. I remember waiting up until midnight for the new season to drop, realizing that it actually dropped at midnight Pacific time, so waiting up for three more hours just to try to watch it. It was nominated for all the awards and introduced a new way to watch television, the binge model. But the show was also a harbinger for how broken the streaming model is,

and how the CEOs at the top make tons of money, while the folks who actually make the show, not so much. The actors on Orange and the New Black became overnight celebrities, but they weren't even making enough money from the show to afford to be able to just get to set. Part of the issue is SAG's 2012 New Media Agreement, which covers shows and movies, quote, produced for initial exhibition via the internet,

mobile devices, or any other platform known, or which hereafter may be adopted. So basically, streaming platforms. But back when that agreement was negotiated, shows developed for the internet on streamers like Netflix were not a thing like they are today. So the actress just didn't, and don't, have an agreement that reflects where we are today with regard to streaming. Add to that fact that streamers are notoriously cagey about transparency around numbers. In a piece called Orange is the New Black signaled the rock.

inside the streaming economy. For the New Yorker by Michael Schulman, the Orange is the New Black cast recalls Ted Sardonos, now Netflix's CEO, was giving a toast at a SAG Awards dinner. A dinner, by the way, that the entire cast would have been expected to attend but have to pay for their own travel and own clothing.

So during the toast, Ted Sardonos raises his glass and brags about how Orange is the New Black is beating Game of Thrones in viewers. And that was the first little glimpse of transparency around just how many viewers were watching Orange is the New Black. Schillman writes, one actor called it a whoops moment, but the cast found the line less uplifting than galling. If the show was really more popular than Game of Thrones, whose top

cast members have been said to make more than a million per episode by the end, why were the salaries for Orange so paltry? And just a quick heads up, there will be an Orange is the New Black spoiler in this section. It's so clearly a lie, so clearly. a scam. And when streaming became the thing, there was a time where creatives thought, like, this is going to be great for me. And then they realized, like, oh, wait, this is

just going to be another way to chip away at what I make. Because I remember reading about the show Orange is the New Black and how, like, that show was like, if you weren't watching Orange is the New Black back when it first premiered on Netflix, like, it was like the fucking show. Everybody Everybody watched it.

When Pusei died, it was like, like, everybody, it was like, Spoiler. Well, I mean, it's been like 10 years. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. If you didn't know that she died, where have you been? Right. But, like, reading about how the people in that show had to have jobs at bar, second, third,

fourth jobs, how little they made. One of the actors showed their residual check, and it was like too small for their, Yeah. It was like, I think that it, I almost wonder if like we got caught up in a positive hype cycle about a new model and a new show without peeking behind the curtains and just asking the questions of like, how are the people who are making this thing that we love that is bringing us so much joy? How are they being compensated? What are their lives like? Yeah. I mean, I think that that is just emblematic of the industry as a whole and not just entertainment. I mean, We go to the store and we buy clothes and we don't think about how much the person who made the clothes is getting paid. You know, whether it's fast fashion and we're learning about the extreme abuses and unfair working conditions. And people are like, but I love Forever 21. It's like, okay, the people doing the job are not being treated fairly.

And when it comes to Hollywood, again, people assume people often conflate visibility with wealth. I see you everywhere. It must mean you are wealthy, but that's just not the case. To your earlier question about, you know, how excited we were about streaming, I think that at face value, streaming and being able to have content reach people in many different ways is absolutely exciting. You could watch, you know, I remember getting my first iPhone and being able to watch movies on the train and just thinking like, this is so cool. I can watch a show on my 30-minute commute to work, and I hadn't been able to do that before. But there were more places for people to get work. You know, it wasn't just the big networks. Now you could be in a web series. You could be on a show

on Netflix and, you know, more people were getting to see it. So I think it makes sense that people were excited about that. And a show like Orange is the New Black specifically was employing such a diverse cast, you know, from Laverne Cox to Danielle Brooks and all of these black women and all these women of different ages, right? Like women that you didn't necessarily get to see on TV. So I think we were all excited about that. But when it comes to the residual model and the low pay rates, I often remind people that if someone wants to take advantage of someone, they're going to find a way to do it. And I don't think that way. So I go from a place of like, oh, yeah, we're all starting on the same page. We're all going to treat each other fairly. But that's because I don't seek to

take advantage of people. And essentially what happened is there were certain things that our contract did not account for because we could not have anticipated where we're at with streaming. And like I said, our contract comes up for negotiation every three years. These are things that we wanted to address in 2020, but because of the pandemic, everything was already shut down. We had no leverage. We couldn't threaten to strike. We were effectively already on strike. Everybody was at home. So these are concerns that we've had for quite some time. And again, when you negotiate, you lose certain things. So I remember in 2017, we fired our agents over packaging, which is the idea that when you

sell a show, your agent could essentially give the studio a deal and say, we're giving you this show, and we're also going to give you a bunch of writers from our agency at a discounted rate. And the WGA said, that's not fair. So you're making money off of my show and you're making money. some, you know, money off of all these writers, this is not okay. We couldn't come to a resolution. We all had to fire our agents. We fired our agents for like nine months. They came back. We figured it out. So the WGA and SAG similarly have to prioritize. They're like, well, we got this thing that we don't like. We got this thing we don't like. What's the one that we're going to get the

most headway on. What's the one we're probably going to have to say, let's do this one next year? We've been asking for script fees for staff writers for years, meaning if you are the, if you're a first time writer on a show and you get to write an episode of the show, you do not get paid for it. You don't get paid. Anybody else that gets a script assignment gets paid. Wait. We have been asking for this. Just don't get paid? Well, you don't get paid a fee. So you get paid you get paid a weekly fee as a writer, and then there's what's called a script fee. And so, again, not everybody gets assigned a script. Sometimes you don't have, there's too many, or there's not enough episodes and there's

too many writers, or the showrunners like, I want to write the finale, or, you know, two people pair up and they write an episode or whatever. So we've been asking for the staff writer, which is the very first staff position, to get that script fee. We've been asking for this for years. We've never been able to get it. This is the first year that the studios were like, we'll give it to you. We're like, yeah, but you won't give us anything else.

Yeah, but we'll give you this one thing you've asked for for 20 years. So again, who knows if we'll get to keep it because today, actually, the AMPTP is officially resuming talks with WGA. Who knows how that will turn out or how long that will take? But again, the point in negotiations is you say, we really want to. want this thing, so we're willing to give up this thing. Will we keep the script fee for staff writers? I hope so. That money could be life-changing for some people, but it's all a matter of what else is on the table and what's most important. And I really think the residuals and AI are our biggest core issues for both unions. Obviously, the demands that you all have, they're like,

They seem race neutral, but I can only imagine that they will deeply impact who gets in rooms, who gets, who gets platforms, who gets legs up. And like, you know, how do you see these demands impacting the playing field and the entertainment industry more broadly? Like, if you don't have a famous name to fall back on or you're not connected to somebody famous or you're a marginalized person, a person of color, like, how do you see these demands connecting to the kind of industry or space? that you hope to see. Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head by talking about nepotism, right? Like, nepotism is not exclusive to this industry. But the reality is if you have familial connections, if you have money to lean back on, you can wait nine months to get paid for a job. You can take an extremely low rate. You can break into the industry because your mom has an agent. And you can say,

I want to work in TV. Can you get me an agent? You already live in Los Angeles. You already, you know, have a home, a roof over your head. So the things that we're asking for are going to make the industry more equitable for everyone. But to your question, it will be especially helpful for folks from marginalized identities who are already facing so many hurdles in order to get into the industry. If you don't live in New York or L.A. for example. There are some things in the SAG contract where we're asking for opportunities for actors that don't live here. If you are an actor in Atlanta and you are super talented, you should be able to audition for a show. And if you book the job, you should not be barred from the job because

you can't afford to come to L.A. on short notice and get an apartment and, you know, get that plane ticket and do the show. If you're the best person of the job, you living in Atlanta, should not keep you from getting the job, right? So another thing that SAG has been asking for is hair and makeup equity. And those are things that are things that pertain to people of color, making sure that when I come to set, they have the foundation that's going to match my skin tone, but they have somebody who's going to be able to cut my hair, that they have somebody who's going to be able to lay those baby hairs. That is not the norm. And it's not saying, that, you know, we need to make sure we know we can dictate who's the makeup artist, who's

the hairstyles. We're just saying we want to be part of the conversation. That's going to ensure that marginalized folks who are on set, if you're a plus size person, we got to make sure we have the clothes that are going to fit you and are going to make you look good and feel comfortable on set. So while the demands, so to speak, are neutral and that they are not specific to race and gender and sexuality, oftentimes the people who need those specific accommodations who need that access because they don't already have it are folks from marginalized identities. You don't want a situation where it's like, oh, for black women, they just pay for their own hair at a pocket if they want their hair to not look a mess, right? Like that's like, yeah.

That's, yes. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, I know when I've been on shows, I have, um, I have, taking care of my own hair, either waking up super early and getting a haircut or getting a haircut the day before or, you know, when I had locks doing my own hair, going to the hair salon, because I had had enough situations where the people on set did not know how to take care of me. And it is, it's a harsh reality. I even learned how to do my own makeup for that reason. I hired a makeup artist to teach me how to do my own makeup so that I could have the right foundation because it's different makeup on camera than it is for, you know, a weekend out on

the town. So I spent my own money to do that because I'd had enough times where I had come to set and they said, oh, your skin is beautiful. You don't need anything. Oh my God. I've been told the same thing. Listen, I know what I'm working with. But when you're on camera with those HD 4K camera, you don't want to see my pores. You don't want to see my shiny forehead. I need foundation. I need powder. You don't go on TV bare face. You look like a mole rat. I don't care what your skin looks like. You need something under all those lights. But the fact that you've heard it tells me this is, again, a systemic problem. How are you a makeup artist and you don't have foundation to match every shade of the rainbow? You should be able to do everybody's makeup.

Again, this is not an extraordinary ask. This is basic. How about you come to work, prepared to do your job? That sounds like something that you should be able to do. Yeah, your job. Your job. You are the makeup artist, Mama. You should be able to do this. I can't tell you how it. And again, I know how to do my makeup now because I invested in learning how to do it. But I've never worn a lot. lot of makeup. I've always been less is more girly. And I've had too many times where the makeup artist is like, what color do you like? What? I don't know. You tell me what color I'm supposed to be wearing. Why am I going on TV looking casket ready? This is not, this is not acceptable. Not casket ready. I mean, you know, who did the body? She looks so good. It looks like she's sleeping. I'm alive.

I don't. This is not okay. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard herds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Remember me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like, After you go through a training camp with that, I said, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

At our back. I've seen a lot of inaccurate information about the strike. Some fans who are supportive of the strike suggested that supporters should cancel their streaming accounts to stand in solidarity with striking workers, even though that is not something that either union is asked for. More importantly, is the question of who can and can't work right now. This has been particularly tricky for influencers. With writers and actors on strike, what studios approach influencers to make movie and TV

content instead? Francesca has kind of become a one-woman truth teller, combating misinformation about the strikes on social media. So you had this very interesting response to a content creator who was, and voice actor, who basically was saying that, like, making projects, if you are like an influencer or a content creator, or for whatever reason, don't consider yourself like an actor and you're not in the union now. They were like, oh, well, here's why it's like actually fine and not scabbing.

I've seen so much incorrect information floating around the internet. Like some people saying like, oh, if you, like you shouldn't cosplay. Like I've just seen so much information that is not correct. And I guess my first question is, can you set the record straight? But then my second question is, on top of everything else that you personally are dealing with right now with this strike, how does it, like, how did you become the person who was like, and on top of everything else? I also have to like correct people's misinformation about what is and isn't scabbing. Like, aren't you doing enough right now? You know what I mean? Wow. I feel so seen. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's really interesting because the WGA has been on strike for a little over 90 days. And SAG is. but on strike for three weeks. And I'm a member of both. So when the WGA strike was called, I had to cease

working on projects. I wasn't really acting in anything. But when the SAG strike was called, some of the things that they're asking for is a pause on promoting struck work, meaning any work that is produced by the studios. And it was really disheartening to see so many people, again, three weeks now. But this was like week one. It was maybe three days. There were people that were like, I can't talk about these movies. I'm like, bitch, it's been three days. Like, calm down. I haven't been able to work for months. Months I had to stop working. And again, no one is being forced to do anything. People could do whatever they want. But our reunion rules state for both SAG and WGA, that anyone who is potentially seeking future membership is being asked to join us in solidarity

and not promoting or engaging in struck work. What does that mean? That means a movie is coming out, you're not talking about it, you're not sharing it, you're not doing the work that the studios would be asking the actors and writers to do. When the strike was called, the actors walked off the red carpet. They stopped doing the press tour. I stopped promoting on social media. The studios are like, need people to watch these movies. So who are we going to go to? Let's go to the influencers. Hey, can you do reviews? Hey, can you be on the right carpet? Hey, we're going to send you a box of goodies so that you can talk about it. You are essentially replacing the role of the writers and actors. Whether or not you have aspirations to be an actor or writer in the future, that's what's happening. You are doing the work

that normally we would be contracted to do. And what was, again, very frustrating to me was, this insistence that, well, I'm going to get mine. Absolutely. Get yours. When and if you want to join the union, you are not someone that we are going to want to be in community with because you want to work with people that have your back. When you are spending 12, 13 hours on set, you want to be surrounded by people that you trust and that are of high caliber and are ethical and honest And if you see the strike as an opportunity to get paid, again, do what you got to do. But the reality is people in this business are not going to trust you. And so you are essentially saying, well, I now want to join the union.

But like when it was time to like really buckle down and support us, you couldn't do it, do it? Fourth, we own week three. Week three? And again, this was like three days into the strike when it happened. You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of when the pandemic started and all those celebrities were singing Imagine. And it was like day three.

It was day three of the strike. And it was like, what if there was no money? Nothing has happened. You're in a mansion. You're fine. So if you, you know, and again, maybe you don't want to be an actor. But we also represent host. We also represent podcasters and influencers and stamp people and radio DJs and dancers and singers. There are so many different types of people, audio book performers.

And I've said this many times. I was an influencer. I know how those checks are. They don't always be checking. And while this industry is not perfect, the reason that we are striking is to make it better. The strike is not going to last forever. And when the industry comes back, it's going to be better for it. And so if you have aspirations to be a part of this industry and or you just believe that we deserve fair pay, we're asking you to support us. And I know it's hard. Again, I had to stop working on something that I was working on for three years. Three years I've been working on this project. And I just had to stop. And I don't know when I'll get to go back. I don't know if the project is dead. Don't know if I'll ever get paid. I don't know. It sucks. It's not

fun. The strike is not meant to be fun. It's meant to be disruptive. And in order to do that, we need as much support as possible. So again, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. If you're interested in doing it the right way, we just ask you go to the website, sag afterstrike.org. All the rules are laid out there for journalists, for influencers, for fans. And again, I appreciate the support. Again, I know it's really hard. But you do things because they're the right things to do, not because they're the easy things to do. Francesca, how can people listening, even if they're not entertainment folks, they're inspired by your words and they want to support? What can they do? If you're in New York or Los Angeles, we would love to see you on the picket lines. You do not have to be in the industry. You can go to the websites, WGA Strike 2023 or WGA contract 223.org,

sag afterstrike.org to join us on the picket lines. You can also donate to the entertainment fund. The entertainment fund provides financial assistance for writers, actors, crew members, that includes assistants and makeup artists and hairstylists and anybody who is being financially impacted by the strike. So you can donate there. SAG after also has a strike fund that you can donate to via their website. And also just continuing to amplify our message.

I think oftentimes people want an easy solution. I'm seeing lots of people being like, well, should I cancel my subscriptions? No, we're not asking you to do that. We're not asking you. We know you want to help. But what you can do is amplify our message, dispel the misinformation that people might be sharing or digesting about the strike, share this podcast episode, for example. All of that helps.

And again, I appreciate anybody that is standing in solidarity with us. It really means a lot. And I have to say you individually, Francesca, have been such a clear voice. I've listened to you on multiple podcasts in preparation for this. I've read multiple interviews. Like, you are out here doing the work of helping folks understand what people are asking for the stakes, how they can get involved. And I just really appreciate that you're doing that. Like, you have been kicking ass at this strike. Thank you so much. I've joked many a time that the

studio is really fucked up because I ain't got no job now. So my job is the strike. And you can, and you make videos like you like something will happen on 10 o'clock in the morning by 11. I see her TikTok. I'm like, she's on it. Yeah, you know, again, this is a weird time, but it has been a creatively inspiring time for me. And I think that's really been the silver lining is that when you turn your creative passion to a job, it's a double-edged sword because you love what you do, but now you're creating by committee. It's like, we got to get on a Zoom to talk about, you know, whatever, whatever you submitted. And so there's something really freeing about, yeah, something happens at 10, and I'm like, ooh, I have an idea for this. And I'm just going to make it.

And I don't have to get approval from anybody and I don't have to wait. And the success is not tied to how many views it gets. It doesn't matter if it does a million views or 10 views. Like I liked it. I had a good time making it. People enjoyed it. And so it's a success for me. And I have to admit that that was kind of missing from my work in years past. And so it has been really nice to just like create with reckless abandon. And my hope is that when the. strike is over, I can kind of sustain that and infuse that in my paid work because it has been really, it's been really fulfilling. Well, that's beautiful. Like what a good, what a silver lighting. Yeah. Yeah, I try. Shout out to my therapist because she real good at being like, hmm, sounds like something positive happened. And I'm like, okay, Shawnee, okay, okay. Well, Francesca, you know, I firmly believe that TV and movies are like one of the last things we have that are just

purely good and that we should get to have good stories and also have the people that make them being treated like human beings and being fairly compensated for what they give us. Because like we don't have a lot of things that are just purely good anymore. And that's like that's like one thing that we have. Yeah, it's true. I, there's so many times that you come home for like a long day and you turn on the TV and you get to enjoy like a story and immerse yourself in it and feel seen and or just like turn your brain off and forget all the things that are stressing you out and just laugh. And I feel

really fortunate that I've been able to do that. And I've been able to work in this business for a little over a decade. And I've met so many incredible people. And I just, I'm excited to continue doing it. And I'm, I'm really excited about the potential to create a pathway for more people to join this industry. Because I think it's really, really, really beautiful. And especially as someone who came from the internet and now has gotten to make my dreams come true. I want that for anybody who wants it. And so that's what we're fighting for. And again, I've said it so many times, but we're fighting because I know that we will win. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find

transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Ritchatod. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio,

check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest,

SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be? I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered Conversations from Night Sweat. to futas, to scheduling sex. Wait, what sex? Is it just me, or does every woman my age,

want to look at Pinterest instead of having sex sometimes? They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American soccer is about to explode. The World Cup is coming. Ramers sending on the only school.

You're at the chip. Score! I'm Tab Ramos. I'm Tom Boca. On our podcast, Inside American Soccer, you'll get the real storylines, the biggest decisions, and the truth about the U.S. national team.

It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals. Listen, Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tab Ramos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.

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