There Are No Girls on the Internet - Taylor Swift AI deepfakes flood Twitter; Libs of TikTok gets leadership position in Oklahoma schools; AI steals from Indigenous artists in Australia – NEWS ROUNDUP

Episode Date: January 27, 2024

Kelly Osbourne addresses infamous 2015 remarks about Latinos on 'The View': https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/kelly-osbourne-addresses-infamous-2015-remarks-latinos-view-rcna134755 Researchers Say the Deepfake Biden Robocall Was Likely Made With Tools From AI Startup ElevenLabs: https://www.wired.com/story/biden-robocall-deepfake-elevenlabs/ AI-Generated Taylor Swift Porn Went Viral on Twitter. Here's How It Got There: https://www.404media.co/ai-generated-taylor-swift-porn-twitter/ Oklahoma schools gig for Libs of TikTok founder: Does it meet state's own rules? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2024/01/26/libs-of-tiktok-chaya-raichik-oklahoma-school-library/72361037007/ Conversion therapy content is being banned by social media companies thanks to the work of LGBTQ+ group: https://www.advocate.com/business/conversion-therapy-ban-social-media Man Jailed, Raped, and Beaten After False Facial Recognition Match, $10M Lawsuit Alleges: https://www.vice.com/en/article/3akekk/man-jailed-raped-and-beaten-after-false-facial-recognition-match-dollar10m-lawsuit-alleges Parents worry AI-generated influencers are promoting unrealistic beauty standards to kids: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/parents-worry-ai-influencers-promote-unrealistic-beauty-standards-rcna134814  AI is producing ‘fake’ Indigenous art trained on real artists’ work without permission: https://www.crikey.com.au/2024/01/19/artificial-intelligence-fake-indigenous-art-stock-images/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than adds supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your

business. Call 844-844 IHeart. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Joey, welcome back to the show.

It's so nice to see you. Hey, Bridget, it's nice for you too. So before folks ask, if my voice sounds a little different, it's because I'm a bit under the weather. I've been saving my voice all day. This is the first time that I've really spoken out loud all day. So hopefully it'll agree with us for me to record this. But if you're thinking, oh, Bridget sounds raspy or husky,

that's what's going on. So bear with me. Joey, I want to start with a question. I know it has been a weird week. January is also that month, at least for me, that it feels like nothing is right. Everybody is broke, tired, cold, sober if you're doing dry January. All of that said, is there something on the internet that is giving you joy in this moment? Ooh, that's a good question.

There's definitely a lot that is stressing me out right now. But, oh, my God, there was this TikTok trend recently that was, I can't remember who it was, but it was like this clip from The View and it was the person, like, you know what I'm doing? It was the clip of somebody going Donald Trump. If you kick out all the, like, whatever. What did she say? It's Kelly Osborne. I know exactly what you're talking about. Oh my God. I'm so love that you brought this up. It's Kelly Osborne. If you kick out of the, if you kick out of this country. Who is going to scrub your toilets, Donald Trump? And so it was like people doing that meme. but like different formats. But, you know, there were just, there were a lot of fun ones going around. Love a good trend.

That is one of those pop culture moments that lives in my mind rent-free. I also love the reaction of all the different people at The View because Kelly Osborne says it and she says it very, you can tell that she was like trying to make a point that like didn't land. And immediately everybody's like, oh no. And she's like, no, but in the sense that and they're just like, uh-uh, no. And I just read this interview with her about that moment because it's been taking off on TikTok. And honestly, like, we'll throw the link to the interview in the show notes if I can find it.

But she's like, you know, sometimes you have to learn in public. And I know the point that I was trying to make. And maybe it didn't land. But, you know, you have to grow sometimes. And I appreciated how she handled it. And I did see a TikTok where somebody made the point that she was trying to make more succinctly. They were like, well, if you kick out. out all of the immigrants in this country, that is going to be impactful to all of us because

immigrants give so much to our country and actually like we should be respectful and honor the different ways that their labor makes our country great. And then in his version, it's like, oh, that actually makes sense. So she was trying to make a point. The point didn't land, but it is a pop culture moment that will stick with me. Yeah, no, that was so funny. And that's good to hear that at least it seems like she's handling it, you know, with grace to something a extent. Because, yeah, that is, that is like a, you know, I'm not going to say that when she said wasn't wrong. That was definitely a weird thing to say. But, you know, we all got to make her mistakes and grow. And I do also agree with the point where it's like, yeah, we, you know, there's a conversation

about the like labor that goes unnoticed and particularly like jobs that people, you know, don't necessarily want to have and immigration and all that. And that's definitely a conversation to be had. So, yeah, but got a fun TikTok trend out of it. Yeah. I feel, I mean, as podcasters, having to grow in public and learn stuff in public has been part of the process. So I definitely feel for Kelly Osborne of, oh yeah. Oh, yeah. I embarrassed myself and a lot of people probably heard it. And that was, that was humbling. Oh, yeah. I like, I could not imagine like having to be on live TV. Like, this is very closely edited. I'm definitely grateful for that because there's a lot of times when I'm like, I need to like stop and think. Yes. Oh my God. Joey, if you're like, listeners,

if you're ever listening and you're like, wow, I can't believe Bridget or Mike or one of the guests was able to say that so eloquently on the fly. It's because we didn't. That is the magic of Joey and our other editor, Tari, making us sound smarter and more eloquent than we are on the fly. If this was live TV, never. Absolutely not. And also want to show like the view where the whole point is you're sort of arguing and like talking over each other and having discourse. I would have to be like, everybody be quiet so I can catch my thought like so I can get my thoughts together every five minutes. Yeah, definitely. Okay. So this week, election season fully kicked off. The New Hampshire primary happened this week and some voters got a call at the very last minute from someone

giving them information about the election. You know the value. So that sounded like Joe Biden, but that was not Joe Biden. That was an AI-generated audio deepfake that voters in New Hampshire before this week's primary got on the phone telling them not to vote. And I don't have a ton to say about this that I have not already said, but I'll just reiterate that it does not bode well for the use of AI to spread disinformation and make that impact a lot worse this election cycle. This is something that I'm worried about, thinking about all of the folks who I am in community. community with who also study and work on dis and misinformation, particularly how it impacts democracies, are all sort of saying the same thing, which is that AI could be poised to really make disinformation, which is already a problem, so much, so much worse. And what's worse is

that we're not really doing a ton about it right now. The nonprofit consumer advocacy group, public citizen, says that that robocall really underscores the need for federal regulation of AI generated deepfakes and that it is way, passed time for action. I completely agree. But this comes as Republican FEC chairman, Sean Cuxey, says that they're not even looking at establishing any kind of updated rules federally around deepfakes and political ads. At the earliest, they're going to do it early summer, which that is after many states have their primaries. So it just seems pretty late to be like, oh, we will be rolling that out in summertime. You know, after states have already held their primaries, feels pretty late in the

game to be trying to curb the impact of this kind of thing. Yeah. I'm glad you opened with a positive question because I do feel like, I think because the primary started now, like the reality of the fact that there's going to be an election this year has like started to hit. And it's just been like absolute terror every time I think about it. Like there really is no kind of good outcome. I can see right not to be complete pessimist.

But, yeah, no, I feel like this is going to be a weird, weird year. Friend, don't even get me started. It's one of those things that if I, I've told myself that I'm not going to start really thinking about the election in earnest in a meaningful way until summer. Like, I guess I'm kind of like the FEC here. I'm like, because if I start thinking about it now, there's plenty of time for me to spin out and doom and gloom. Everybody that I know who works on these issues is having almost a sort of like philosophical crisis around the upcoming election. I genuinely don't know how it is going to go. We are very worried as a community.

And it's so weird because I remember when we were preparing in the like disinpo election disinpo democracy space, preparing for the last election, we were gaining out all the different scenarios. And I will never forget one of the scenarios that we were gaming out was some sort of a, so it was like, oh, if Trump wins, here's the plan. If Trump loses, here's the plan. And then a third thing that was like, if there is a widespread election-related incident slash irregularity. And at the time, like, we didn't know what we were preparing for. Turns out it was January 6th. So that was very prescient.

Yeah. It feels like we're there all over again. Oh my God, yeah. That's so weird to think that that was like, yeah, there was the election and then that, I don't know. I feel like it all kind of blurs together. But yeah, that was such a crazy time. And it's definitely going to be an interesting next couple of months. Yeah.

Not looking forward to it. I'm not surprised to hear that people are having their own kind of crises around it. This might be like too personal, but during that election, my dad, who is chronically ill and disabled, he was in the hospital and I went to, I like dropped everything, all the election work to go be with him in the hospital. And it was a, it's a cognitive issue. And so he was, you know, not awake, was asleep for a lot of that time resting. And we were watching, it was election night, right? And so we were watching the election results in his hospital room. And so he woke up from this like drugged up medically induced sleep to seeing Donald Trump on television the day after the election claiming that he had won. And my dad was like, what? Like, what did I miss? Like did he win? And I remember being like, dad, I know it looks like the how like where I would have to start to be like, why are you, why you are watching Donald Trump on CNN claiming that he won an election and being like he didn't win. Don't worry. I know it seems like he did because what?

you're seeing on TV, but just take my word for it, you didn't. It was a very weird time, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, no. That sounds like a crazy conversation. So, you know, thinking about how I feel and, you know, civil society groups who are looking at this really feel like not enough is being done, if there was a theme to this episode, it would be do something, listen to people, don't wait till it's too late, it feels like it's becoming too late. And another way that we are seeing that this week is through non-consensual AI-generated sexually explicit deep-fakes.

So last week on the news roundup, Mike and I were talking about this New Jersey high school student who has been advocating for legislation that criminalizes non-consensual AI deepfakes after the boys in her class were trading deep-fake sexualized images of her and about 30 other girls in her school. And this week, a school district in Aurora, Colorado is dealing with the very same. thing. This week, the Aurora Police Department has released the names of schools involved in a extortion investigation, which includes two middle schools. When I was in middle school, that was grade six to eight. So, like, you're like 11, 12, 13, 14. You are so young to be dealing with the impacts of a sexually charged, deep fake extortion ring. Like, I don't think it is okay for kids to be having to deal with this. So police say that in six different instances, students, at that school district reported being a direct target of the sextortion scheme after being contacted by the suspect or suspects through Instagram.

In dozens of other cases, students received unsolicited invitations to pay to join a close friends list on Instagram where sexually explicit material had been posted. So it really is a marketplace where kids are either being invited to pay to get this sexual content or being made to pay to keep that content from being shared on these platforms a nightmare. And again, like, I don't think this is something that should just become normalized for our kids. If we did another update every single time one of these AI-related sextortion rings was reported on in a different school district across the country, it would be all we talked about because it is happening so much. This should not become a normal thing for our kids. And it seems like it is becoming normal. And lawmakers are just dragging their feet to actually do anything to prevent this from becoming a new thing. that kids just have to deal with.

Yeah, no, that's so scary. Yeah, like, exactly. Like, I don't know. I think I was like 11 when I started middle school. Like, you're a baby. That is a child. Like, and I don't know, it's, I was. So, like, when I was in middle school, that was kind of like the beginning of,

or I guess not the beginning technically, but like social media was just kind of like becoming a thing and like Instagram and Snapchat or like starting to become big. And I mean, it's so. sad because I do remember then, like, a lot of the conversations were about, like, sending nudes or, like, sending or, like, sexing or all of that or, um, you know, people getting groomed online and, and all of that. And it's, it's, it's weird now being like, wow, that all was so messed up. And it is continuing to happen. It's continuing to happen to, in a way that's, like, even more dangerous, kind of and even more sort of like out of control. which just is so scary. Like I can't imagine being a kid right now. Like, yeah, that honestly just sounds terrifying. It's terrifying.

And our kids should not have to be dealing with this. Like nobody should have to be dealing with this. We cannot have a healthy society when this is just tolerated and is like just becomes part of the experience of being a young person, which I just don't accept that this has to be part of that. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Who's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because your parents. made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard.

They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle age, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Human me! I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcast Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-E-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And this week, Taylor Swift was also targeted by non-consensual deep-fick images that flooded Twitter. According to Verge, these images got 45 million views, 24,000 reposts, and hundreds of thousands of likes and bookmarks before the verified blue-checked user who shared the images had their account suspended for violating platform policy. The post was live on the platform for about 17 hours prior to its removal. So 404 Media has this really in-depth

piece of reporting about how those images originated on Telegram, which we don't know what Telegram is. It's kind of like an alternative messaging platform that really gained popularity with right-wing extremists, but other folks use it too, like a lot of journalists depend on it. So Twitter actually has rules that ban AI-generated deep fake images, but I can confirm, as of this recording, many of those images of Taylor Swift, those deep-faked, non-consensual, sexually explicit images were still floating around Twitter. You know, the one user who brought those images from Telegram to Twitter might have had their account deleted, but because of the way the internet works, plenty of them are

floating around as we speak. And so the hashtag Taylor Swift AI was even trending. So you might think, like, why is Twitter allowing this? shouldn't they do something? But remember, when Elon Musk took over Twitter, one of the first things he did was gut the trust and safety team. And content moderation there has kind of been like more or less non-existent, like not totally non-existent, but there's just not a lot of robust content moderation happening there. Like the fact that this could be up for 17 hours kind of says something. Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like at this point, there's nothing, there's very, very little

that could happen that would make me think, wow, why is Twitter allowing this? Because I know the answer is Elon Musk does not care. And in fact, is probably encouraging this. I will say, obviously the story is terrible and horrible. This is weirdly the second thing

on my like 2024 predictions thing that I made at the beginning of the year to happen. What? Which is, yeah. Because, like, I don't know, there were like TikToks that were going around and stuff where people were like just making a list

and they were usually kind of goofy. And I did. one too. And one of them was, I was like, I feel like there's going to be some Taylor Swift AI controversy where like explicit photos are made and she's going to get like, I mean, I don't, we'll see where the story ends. But like, you know, I believe that the Swifties is a powerful political force. So who's to say, yeah, the other one was that Brian Gosling was getting nominated and Marco Rappi was not going to get nominated. Oh my God. But you're like. So it has been a one.

weird week of psychic predictions, apparently. Keep us posted, if any of the other predictions, the other Joey 2024 predictions come true. That one's happened to me. I predicted that this was back when he was like much more popular. I predicted that Justin Bieber was going to get caught saying the N word, and he did. I was like, wow. So you said that the Swifties are this powerful force, and you are right about that because even though Elon Musk has not been able, or Elon Musk and his team have not been able to rid the platform from these images, Swifties actually took it upon themselves to try to flood the Taylor Swift AI hashtag

with real actual content of Taylor Swift performing to drive down that sexually explicit fake content. And, you know, I know the Swifties are like a big force, like they're like an organized force for good at times. I firmly believe that like they should be being able to spend their time like, you know, like they shouldn't have to do this is what I'm saying. They should be able to spend their time like buying merch and trading merch and making bracelets and all of the, all of the fun, sparkly things that come, that go with being a Swifty.

Yeah, like they should just be a lot. Yeah, like they should be able to just be fans of a thing. They shouldn't have to be like the PR team for the volunteer PR team for like a billionaires. celebrity and not that it's on her team to like, you know, that this happened, but it is like, they shouldn't have to be the content moderators for Twitter probably. Some better way of putting it. Especially because I'm sure a lot of these people are pretty young. Yeah.

Like, we should, it should not be up to like a thousand Swifties to keep potentially illegal content off of a platform that is run by a billionaire. That's not a dynamic that I'm comfortable with. And I have to say, like, it feels really gross to talk about those images. But I just want to add, because it's something that has been in my mind a lot, is that the images are football themed. They depict Taylor Swift at a big football game. And I don't know for sure, but I have to assume that this is related to the fact that she's gotten so much attention from going to those NFL games because her boyfriend is a football player. And every time she goes to a game, it is like breathlessly reported on.

And I guess I just don't think that it's a coincidence that these images depict her out of football game. And I think they're meant to humiliate her on the basis of the attention that she has gotten from the NFL. And I think that they're meant to like, like people who make visual disinformation are so good at doing so in a way that works to get people. They're just very charged. They're very good at making images that are very charged. And I can't help but notice the ways that these images seemed charged to humiliate her in a very specific kind of way about a very specific thing about her personal life. Yeah, that definitely doesn't seem like it's a coincidence.

Yeah. And, you know, I've seen some takes that are like, well, I'm glad it's happening to Taylor Swift. She is so powerful and so rich and that like she'll be able to do something. Like certainly her team will be able to do something. But I push back on those takes because, like, these images are up, right? Like, I confirmed that before we started recording. And it's like, even if Twitter wanted to remove these images, I don't think they would be able to just by the nature of how the internet works. And I think it just speaks to the fact that the powers that be have let this problem get so out of hand.

But I don't know what a fix looks like. And if it's happening to Taylor Swift, one of the wealthiest, most popular and most powerful, the women in the world, I don't think that it's like, oh, well, she'll be able to figure out something where this won't happen to other people. It's already happening to her. So if it's going, if it happens to her and those pictures are up for 17 hours and then still up after that, what hope is there for any of us? Like what happens when it happens to a high schooler or a child or any of us? Like lawmakers have ignored the warnings and gotten no traction on legislation on this. and I just I just don't think any of it bodes well for anybody.

Yeah, definitely. Like, I'm glad. And again, I, you know, it is, it's, I don't, obviously, like, it shouldn't happen to anybody. It just kind of, it's horrible for her on a personal level. And then also, like, it just kind of enforces that sort of idea that, like, women's bodies are, like, public property, and especially if they're, like, in the spotlight. But, yeah, like, I don't think if this happened to me,

my like 300 Twitter followers would be able to, you know, change like blood the hash. Not that there would be a hashtag, but, you know, yeah, it's, it is, it is sort of concerning that, like, one of the most powerful women in the world can have this happen to her with, like, very little consequences at the moment. Yeah, I mean, that you just really nicely articulated. One of the things I always say about this kind of garbage is that these kinds of exploitative content And it reinforces the idea that women, by virtue of showing up online, our body and our images are just open for whoever wants to use them or exploit them in any way they can. And so I've seen people be like, oh, well, these pictures aren't real and she's a public figure.

So like that goes along with it. Absolutely fucking not. The cost of showing up and being a public figure and, you know, being on the Internet should not be to be sexually here. humiliated. And I do think it's something about reinforcing this idea that, yeah, our bodies are just up for the taking to be depicted however anybody wants. And then on top of that, we're supposed to not be upset by it because it's, quote, not real? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. That is a terrible dynamic. That is a terrible norm. We should all be pushing back on that because suddenly, I'm sure, you know, that high schooler who is having, the high school student who is having this happen to her

isn't saying like, oh, it's not real images. These images, whether they are real or not, they can do real damage and really impact people's lives. And, yeah, I just think that we should all be pushing for a culture that recognizes that. Yeah, and I definitely, it's, this is one of those things, too, where, like, it's terrible and it's terrible. It's happening.

Again, it's terrible that it happens to anybody. I think, like, obviously Taylor's story is going to get a lot of attention, and it is something that is happening to, like, a lot of people, and it's probably going to continue to happen. And interestingly, slash, not surprisingly, you know, it's happening around the same time and, like, by the same people that want to crack down on, like, sex workers and sex workers' rights. And I think this is another situation looking at AI where, you know,

it really is important to listen to sex workers about these issues because a lot of times they're going to be, like, the first ones harmed by this kind of stuff, slash exploited and we all are going to end up suffering because of these sort of exploitative things. So, yeah, no, I just, I think listen to sex workers about these issues, like, is the weird sort of, like, duality of, there's efforts to take away, like, agency over the bodies of, like, non-s cis men. And at the same time, like, those bodies are kind of seen as public property in these sort of situations, which is. scary. Yeah, almost every one of the tech and internet facilitated harms that we talk about on this show, sex workers have been like, oh yeah, we called that. Yeah, we were warning about that. We knew about that. And if only people with power, I don't know, listened. I wonder where we would be.

Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Oden, to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst?

Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard.

They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged, one erection. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me, I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. bind. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball, like,

after you go through a training camp with that, I said, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So from one unsavory story to another,

there are kind of a lot of unsavory stories on this episode. apologize. But also, happy your stories. No one else is new. I know. I know. I really deeply hate talking about this person. I think we've only ever talked about this person once before on the podcast, I think. But here we go. So far-right hate-mongering influencer Chaya Racheck, who runs the inflammatory account, Libs of TikTok, has just been appointed to the Oklahoma Education Department's Library Media Advisory Committee, despite the fact that this person does not live in Oklahoma, is not an Oklahoma resident,

does not have a child in the Oklahoma school system, and is a former real estate agent with no clear background or history or ties to education. And this person is going to be advising the state on what kind of media should be in school libraries. Wow. Okay. So if you don't know what Libs of TikTok is, it is an account where they will post videos, a lot of times of perceived LGBT.

youth or the adults who support those youth to their millions of followers to like make fun of them, demonize them, you know, smear them, lie about them, all of that. And in several instances, educators or school libraries or hospitals that are featured on that account will then get death threats or lots and lots of coordinated harassment. So lips of TikTok has been linked to threats at schools and hospitals across the country. A friend of mine, Will Careless, who writes about extremism at the USA Today, has chronicled how her content

has led to real-world harm and disruptions. So in Davis, California, a library received a bomb threat that included hate speech, according to police, and the library and the school nearby had to be evacuated. So this came after a group of speakers

started referring to a group of female trans athletes as, quote, biological males, a librarian asked them to leave, rightly so. that interaction is caught on a video, and then a far-right backlash from Libs of TikTok and others ensued. In Tulsa, Oklahoma, where this woman has just been appointed to, you know, guide the material that children should be receiving, well, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, their school received bomb threats the day after Libs of TikTok tweeted about the school's librarian, who posted a video that was obviously meant to be a joke, obviously meant to be tongue-in-cheek, like anybody who saw this would be like, yeah, she's kidding around.

The librarian in Tulsa posted, My Radical Liberal Agenda is teaching kids to love books and be kind. So obviously that video is meant to be a joke. It's tongue and cheek. But they took it seriously. That's another thing about these people. It's like they have the worst sense of humor. Okay.

It's two things because one, I'm so sorry. But how much of a loser do you have to be to like care this much about what's happening in like high schools? Huge loser. hold on with your life. And then, Taek and of all, yeah, that is like, that is the most basic, like, joke you can make.

I don't know. That is so weird to be like, oh, my God. They're so scary. Wow. I make this point a lot. Do you follow the comedian and writer, or I guess the actress, too, multi-hyphenate, Trace Lassette.

So Trace was talking about Dave Chappelle's most recent Netflix special, and Trace is trans, and she was talking about how, like, what is going on that, like, so, okay, we get it. Dave Chappelle doesn't like trans people. You need to release multiple comedy specials about this, these people that you apparently hate? Who spends this much time focused on and talking about and thinking about and writing about stuff like this? Like, it is not normal. It is not a normal way to exist. She's such a, if y'all don't follow her on TikTok and on Twitter, she is so cool. She's very funny. Oh my God, yeah. And no, like, absolutely. It is giving, like, why are you so obsessed with me?

You know, like, it's, it is really weird. I, I got to say, I don't think I've, I've given a single thought to what a high school curriculum is like in my time since graduating high school. And yeah, I don't typically, you know, hyper-focused on people's gender identity that have nothing to do with me or my life. But yeah, glad that's, yeah. People you'll never meet. Like, it's a wild. Yeah, I, and honestly, like, when we were doing episodes earlier in the summer about, like, book bands and stuff, one of the things that was really surprising to me is that oftentimes challenges for entire public school districts were coming from one parent who did not live in that school district and did not have kids in that school districts. So it's like, so you're just, like, obsessed over what students in a school district. that you don't have any connection to are reading?

What in the fucking world? Like that is just, that is not, who is, who does that? Like, I just like, obviously, maybe you want to be a Fox News star, whatever, whatever, I get it. But like, at the core, that is so, I just, like, cannot understand that mindset at all. I'm with you. Here in D.C. where I live, Chaya Raychick from Lips of TikTok posted a video where she films herself calling Children's Hospital, which is like our major pediatric hospital here in pretending that she was looking for a gender-affirming hysterectomy for a non-existent 16-year-old child.

She posted this recording of this conversation to lives of TikTok last summer, in which she is questioning two unidentified hospital employees about whether or not they offer gender-affirming hysterectomies to patients who are 16. So it's a little bit of a weird situation. Basically, the hospital was inundated with harassing calls and threats, accompanied by a social media post suggesting that the hospital should be bombed, and that its doctor should be jailed, placed in a woodchipper or worse. And in the end, Children's Hospital confirmed that whoever she was speaking to in that video, one, were not medical care providers for the hospital,

and that the hospital does not even perform hysterectomies on minors. The hospital said, none of the people who were secretly recorded by this activist group deliver care to our patients. The information in the recording is not accurate. We do not perform gender-affirming hysterectomies for anyone under the age of 18. Yeah. Also, it is insanely hard to get a hysterectomy as an adult. Like somebody over the age of 18, like, as somebody who, like, I'll be totally honest, my late teen years, almost every single doctor's appointment asked if I can get a hysterectomy just because I didn't want to keep getting my period and don't want to have kids. Like, it's a no every time. It is a staunch no.

That is insane. Yeah. And again, like, as an adult, there's so many hoops you have to go through, even if it's, like, a legitimate medical issue. Yeah. That's so crazy. I've heard from friends, one of my friends was able to get a hysterectomy, but she had two doctors be like, I'm not going to perform it just in case you want to have kids someday. And she's like, I don't want to have kids. I am in a relationship. I am a woman in a relationship with a woman.

So, like, accidental pregnancy is not a thing that's like on my, I have no plans for children in the future. But, like, making a medical decision based on a hypothetical, maybe someday man who might maybe someday hypothetically want to be in the mix to have a baby. It is all that to say, like, you are so right. These people are trafficking in fictions where they are just handing out hysterectomies to whoever wants one regardless of anything. that is not happening. And it's like not based in reality. These things that they, and it doesn't surprise me

the hospital has to be like, yeah, this is the thing that they said happened. That's a lie. Doesn't happen. And a similar thing happened at a children's hospital in Boston as well where their services for children,

for babies, their health care were disrupted because of all of these calls and threats and harassment because of this limbs of TikTok stunts. It's so infuriating to me. Yeah. Also, like, what, what, I mean, I guess it's the, it's the same trying to apply logic to people that are not acting logically, but it's like, I guess it's the same stuff as like people that bomb abortion clinics.

But what is the point of bombing a hospital? Like, literally, they just would rather people be dead than be trans. Like, that is, that's the end game of this, which is, yeah, scary. Yeah. It's so fucked up. So, superintendent, of public instruction, Ryan Walters, said, Chaya is on the front lines of showing the world exactly what the radical left is all about, lowering standards, porn in schools, and pushing woke indoctrination on our kids. Because of her work, families across the country know what is going on in schools across the country. This is so, like, this is like what the fuck levels of bad. But I will say, though, as bad as this is, some folks in Oklahoma are pushing back.

State rep Mark McBride, chairman of the House Appropriations Subcommittee, on education said, I don't see any need to have a 28-year-old realtor from New York that has no children appointed to this position when there are extremely qualified parents, teachers, and librarians in Oklahoma, which I think like a little bit of a drag there. Like, when somebody from Oklahoma highlights that somebody is from New York, I think it's like clear that that's not a compliment. Yeah. It's somebody from the Midwest who's from Chicago, which is a very different environment.

But Oklahoma, but like when somebody really really. emphasizes the New York. That is not a compliment. Also, I did not realize that she was 28. That's wild. Girl, you should be at the club. What are you doing? So, Representative Mickey Dallens, an Oklahoma City Democrat and former public school teacher, said that this appointment might actually violate the department's rules for advisory committees, which require members to be representative of the people served. She's not from Oklahoma, like, not apparent in that district. So, like, difficult to say how she would be representative of the people served. And something I always, I feel like I never really make it explicitly clear when I'm

talking about, lives of TikTok, which isn't often because I cannot stand this person. But you might be thinking like, well, she doesn't come out and explicitly tell people to call in bomb threats or harass educators or like prevent kids from getting care at hospitals. But that is part of the strategy. It's called stochastic terror. And it's when you use media or communications to sort of wink, wink, nudge, make somebody or something or an institution a target of this kind of harassment. And so she's never going to come out and say harass these people. She might actually come out and say like,

oh, well, I would never advocate for harassment of people, but then she'll continue to do the same thing that gets people and institutions harassed time and time again. So I would argue that she knows exactly what she's doing. And think about it. Like if every time you mentioned something that you didn't like happening at a school on your massive platform. If a few hours later, that school had to be evacuated because of a bomb threat or harassment, wouldn't you stop doing that after a while, like if you really didn't want that to happen? Yeah. It's always funny and very funny, I mean, just depressing that this is the case and probably

intentionally the case. But it was always funny that they seem to be doing exactly what they always are accusing the quote unquote radical left of doing where it's like, I'm sorry. Like the quote left you were talking about, the response to everything is just, well, go out and vote and like whatever or like give us. I don't know. It's kind of like this is, it's so crazy. You all are the ones bombing people. Y'all are the ones called in bomb threats.

Like, take a look at the mirror, please. Absolutely. And to put this in a larger context, last year a court ruled that Oklahoma can enforce its law banning and criminalizing gender affirming care for trans minors while a suit against it is being hurt. that law, if it went into effect, would make providing gender affirming care in Oklahoma a felony, right? And so when you, when we're talking about this happening in Oklahoma, it's really important to understand that larger context of what folks there are up against, the climate that they're up against. It is not a safe climate for these use. And I just think that it breaks my heart that you've got dipshits like this who are promoting people like Chaya to positions of power in a school district that she's, does not even have any connection to just to drive home how much they are not welcomed there. And yeah, it's just really horrifying. I think that superintendent of public instruction,

Ryan Walters, should really be ashamed. Because also, this is not serving the constituents and the parents and the youth of that community, like inviting a hate monger in. And they're always, like, just kind of like what you said, they're always like, oh, well, it's people on the left who are making everything woke and making everything political, blah, blah, blah. You are doing that, sir, by you bringing this person with no connection to the community in and giving them a bigger platform, giving them a position of power in your community, you are the one who is politicizing everything. You are the one who is making everything inflammatory. And I just, I really hate it. I really hate it.

Yeah. I also like, most of these people, I'm like, name a single trans kid that you know. Yeah. Like, I guarantee you are just, this is something you think is going to be a big issue. but without even really looking at the reality, which is not to say that there aren't trans kids in these communities. They're absolutely are. Like, it's always coming from people that just kind of have this imagined threat in their brain

without ever having interacted with the trans community or, again, like a single trans kid, which, you know, yeah, usually people that actually have experience talking to trans kids or talking to the trans community don't end up feeling this way, which is part of why this happens. But, yeah, or why, you know, the lack of exposure to trans people is why this happens. But yeah, it is always weird that is coming from kind of this imagined threat than even any sense of reality. Absolutely. It's infuriating. I do have a little bit of good news.

I know that was a upsetting story for all of us. But so little good news. So-called conversion therapy is an abusive practice that is sensibly meant to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity. identity that has been widely debunked. And pretty much every medical association, like the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, consider it to be a dangerous pseudoscience, rightly. 22 states and D.C. currently have laws banning this practice from being used on minors. It's horrible, but here's the good news. Two Twitter alternatives, spoutable run by Christopher Bousay, who we actually have talked to on the

podcast before, and Post, have both banned content promoting conversion therapy. So most mainstream social media platforms like TikTok, Pinterest, Next Door, and Facebook and Instagram all explicitly ban content promoting conversion therapy. And now these smaller sort of niche Twitter alternatives, Post and Spoutable are also joining that. Glad had this to say. The leadership of both Post and Spoutable in adopting new policies prohibiting so-called conversion therapy content puts these companies ahead of many others. This is from Glad CEO, Sarah Kate Ellis. Glad urges all social media platforms to adopt and enforce this policy to protect their LGBT users. So this is good, I think, for a couple of reasons. One of them is that we've talked

on the podcast before about how changes, both good changes and bad changes for bigger platforms, can be this domino effect where other platforms feel the need to follow suit. And I think this is a good example of the way that for smaller platforms, it can create a domino effect of the same thing, where these smaller niche platforms are making this change, and that changes in being reflected for other small platforms. And so, yeah, I think it's cool to see how that domino effect can be working to create positive change for smaller alternative platforms as well. Yeah, definitely.

Great to hear some good news. And yeah, it is like the bare minimum of, you know, protecting your queer and trans users, customers, whatever. But it is such an important step to take. And it's good to see that that's becoming more common. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide. Not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. The worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah.

Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. humor me I need some jokes to make me seem funny Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

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That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball, like, After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. So we already know that technology like facial recognition is racist and sexist and unreliable and should not be used for a whole host of reasons. And here is yet another story that is a horrifying example of what happens when police rely on it anyway to make arrests. So Harvey Murphy Jr. is a 61-year-old man who was arrested in Texas for an armed robbery of a sunglasses hut retail store in 2022, a crime that he did not and could not have committed after facial recognition technology falsely matched him as a suspect. So according to the

Washington Post, a representative of a nearby Macy's told Houston police during the investigation that the company's system, which scanned surveillance camera footage for faces in an internal shoplifter database found evidence that Murphy had robbed both stores, both the sunglasses hut and the Macy's. Now, police do say that after the facial recognition technology flagged Murphy, they then showed his image to the cashier at Sunglasses Hut, who positively IDed Murphy as the assailant. But it could not have been him because he was actually already in prison in Sacramento, California, some 2,000 miles away at the time the crime was committed. And he actually only even found out that there was a warrant for his arrest for

this crime in Texas when he was going to renew his driver's license in Sacramento when the DMV flagged that he had an outstanding warrant and arrested him for this crime that he could not have done. So here's where the story gets really awful. While he was in prison awaiting trial for this crime that he could not have committed, he was beaten and sexually assaulted by three men. So hours after that assault, he was cleared of all charges and released. And now he is suing Macy's, sunglasses hut's parent company, and three people that his attorneys say were involved in the case. He's seeking $10 million in damages and says the assault left him with lifelong injuries. Yeah, that is such a horrifying story.

It's, look, also, I mean, I, we know that prisons are a place where this happens a lot of times, and it is so, for some reason, the solution is never to fix those problems. and like maybe stop so many people going to prison and do prison reform. And the solution is always just to send more people to prison. What else is new? That is, yeah, that is so horrifying. I hope he sues them for whatever they're worth. And yeah, that's horrible.

It is. And I also hate this statement from Macy. So Macy's, when Washington Post talked to them, they declined a comment on the pending litigation. But they did say in a previous statement that Macy's, quote, uses facial recognition in conjunction with other securities methods in a small subset of Macy's stores with high incidences of organized retail theft and repeat offenders. And so that statement is not about this specific case.

They were like, oh, we're not going to talk about that. However, it almost sounds like they're saying like, well, if a few people have to be arrested wrongly because of our faulty use of this surveillance text, it's okay. if it protects our merchandise. Like, I just feel like the focus on retail theft and, like, quote, organized theft, it makes it seem like the most important thing here is the Macy's merchandise, not the fact that they are routinely, falsely arresting people who then are, could be assaulted in prison.

Well, yeah, this is America where property damage is the worst crime you could commit, or property theft is the worst of front, especially if it's sort of a corporation. That is big bad. You got to be locked up. The most important thing we should be protecting are the sunglasses, Joey. I cannot stress that enough. Those sunglasses huts, that is a staple of American culture. And if we're not going to, if the facial recognition isn't going to protect it, who will apparently.

So this is not the first time that something like this has happened. We talked about Portia Woodruff, the heavily press. black woman who was arrested for a crime she had nothing to do with because of this technology. Right aid was actually banned from using facial recognition technology for five years after the FTC found that the store misused facial recognition to falsely accuse people of theft and harassed them causing embarrassment, harassment, and other harm, including physically searching an 11-year-old girl in a way that left her so distraught that her mom had to miss work. Oh my God.

Like awful. I honestly can't believe that it's like, okay, well, you can't use this. for five years. I feel like once your technology has been misused to the point where you are traumatizing children for no real reason, you should lose those privileges forever in my book. Yeah. Well, so like there's something already so dystopian about living in this like hyper police state that we're all in where it's just like we're constantly, constantly being monitored. And there is another level of dystopia to that that it's like, it's not even like, oh, you can't be doing any crime. You got to be on your best.

behavior at all times because you're always being watched. Now it's just like, you never know. And especially if you are a person of color, if you're a black person, it's, yeah, it's just, there's just like another level of dystopia. And doing it in service of like, protecting merchandise and keeping the wheels of capitalism grease. Like it's just protecting Macy's and the sunglasses hot. Like, are you kidding me? It's just so, it's just so like, it's just so sad. We deserve better. It's just so sad. And to your point about, like, we know that this kind of technology disproportionately impacts women, people of color, black people, black women especially. However, I should tell you, Murphy is white. There have been six other people that we know of who have been

falsely arrested because of this technology. All of them have been black. Murphy is the first white man that we know of that's happening to being falsely arrested because of facial recognition technology. And so, I don't know, part of me wonders if this is going to be one of those things where it's like, when the harms were impacting women and black people and people of color, people were like, eh, whatever. But maybe the harm will then extend to everybody. And then it's like, oh, wait, I could be falsely arrested for this? Like, hold on. So we will have to see, but it definitely is, again, people, like we talked to Dr. Joy Blamweeney, I'm an AI researcher on the podcast a while back, people have been very clear about the psychic, cosmic, deep threat that this

technology poses to all of us. And police departments and retail establishments just keep using it. It's like those, it's like those warnings are just going unheard. Yeah, absolutely. Like, there's no logical reason for this to be continued to be used at such a wide scale. Like, it only causes, like, it seems like it's just causing more harm than actually, like, and I don't know what the numbers are for, like, the times to accurate or whatever, but I guarantee it's not enough to kind of justify the opposite. And again, there is something really weird about the fact that it's like, we've all just kind of given up the ability to have any sense of privacy in public, which I guess, I don't know, privacy in public, whatever,

but have any sense of privacy, have any sense of just like being able to exist in the world without having like eyes on you, metaphorical eyes on you, you know. And speaking of folks trying to warn folks in power of the harm that this kind of technology presents, parents are actually talking about the threats posed by AI to young people. A coalition of parents working alongside the group Parents Together wrote a letter to TikTok expressing concerns about AI generated influencers asking the platform, to clearly label when an influencer is not real, but AI generated. Warning that AI-generated influencers can make things like poor body image, body dysmorphia,

and self-esteem issues worse. So the letter was sent to TikTok CEO, and it reads, TikTok is flooding kids' feeds with fake computer-generated people pretending to be real influencers. AI-generated influencers created by companies to make a profit, post photos and videos of people who appear to be real but don't actually exist. These AI-generated people do things like apply makeup on flawless skin and show off perfect bodies, creating an extreme and utterly unattainable beauty standard. Most of the millions of kids who encounter these accounts won't know the people they aspire to look like are not real people at all. Right now, TikTok relies on companies that create these accounts to label them as AI, but with thousands of dollars per post on the line, they often do not.

That's why TikTok must proactively and clearly identify these accounts so young users know which accounts are real people and which are computer generated. So the parents, their concerns are not unfounded. Nearly half, 46% of adolescents, age 13 to 17, said that social media platforms make them feel worse. And TikTok has already been taken to task for kind of, maybe allowing is too strong, but containing content that glorifies disordered eating, right? Like they have rules against that content, but those rules are pretty easily circumvented. And then they kind of don't then. So they might be like, oh, like pro eating disorder content is.

disallowed, but then when people easily get around it, they don't really have a fix for that. And so right now, TikTok is supposed to clearly label AI generated content. But parents together, campaign director Shelby Knox, says that it's really kind of not doing that because how that works now is that the AI virtual influencer will just put in their bio, like hashtag AI influencer. And you would only know that that influencer was AI generated if you look at their bio, not on the content itself. Knox told NBC, I'm not sure that your average kid knows that a virtual influencer is industry speak for, this person is not real.

So because these companies are making money on TikTok's platform and it is contributing to a dangerous culture, our view is that TikTok has a responsibility to come in and figure out how to consistently and visibly label these accounts and these videos. I had never really thought about the threat posed by these AI influencers. I will say this, though. some of them really do look real, but they have this like impossibly conventionally attractive look. Like they're skinny to the point where it's like bodies like, this is not how a body looks or like they're beautiful to a point that is like unachievable and unrealistic. And it's like, yeah, because they're not real.

And so I'm an adult. When I see content like that, I generally can tell when it's not a real person. But if you're a little kid and you're looking for an influencer to look up to, you might not know. So I just look this up now because I have not had this come up on my free page yet. I have had the weird like AI kind of MPC things come up on my page all the time, which are always weird. But yeah, that is that is freaky. That is not what I expected. Those are actually like uncanny, like weird.

Like I could totally see like a kid looking at that and thinking it's a real person. That is so creepy. And again, like going to the other side of this issue is like influencing is real work that's often, you know, not taken seriously because it is primarily women that do it. It is like a lot of the kind of like are there valid criticisms of influencers? Yes. However, like, yeah, a lot of the criticism does also just come from misogyny. And it's like, you know, again, the jobs that are always going to be. affected first or kind of the people that are already are always going to be like affected workers are yeah sex workers women women of color and it's like this is another example of like an industry that is primarily female and is uh you know not taken seriously because it is primarily female being taken over by all these tech pros that are just going to make the

situation way worse and take take all the bad things about influencing and make that the main thing yeah that is so scary I can we go to like can we can we backtrack on the whole like trying to make fake people thing and like just make like if you want a fake thing to be your

influencer like can it be like a cartoon like a what's the like space jam or something where we just have like a Looney Tunes character in the real world for no reason like it's like I don't know like I feel like there's got to be a better option if you really don't want to pay a human being give Lola Buddy a spot, right?

Like, it doesn't, I guess part of her. Yeah, I think part of me is like when people were, when conversations about AI became so ubiquitous, who does, like, why is it, why are we starting from a place of like, well, AI can write our movies, be our artists, be our, be our, be our creatives, do our influencing. Like, who decided that the kind of creative jobs and creative labor that people aspire to that is, those are the jobs that we're going to have. I mean, I'm sure people who make money, that's who decided it. It's like, oh, we can cut humans who have needs, cut them out of the equation and just like pay some tech bro company to make an AI influencer. Cool. Here's your money. Right.

And it's also like, you know, the tech bros that have been told their entire life that arts and humanities aren't real important things, that it's only technology and now only seeing this kind of stuff is the products rather than the creation. The products aren't even good. Like it is, yeah, it is, we live in a weird, dystopian late capitalist healthscape. And it gets just weirder every day. Well, this last story kind of fits into what you're saying. So let's talk about this because it's like a, it is pretty depressing. So indigenous artists in Australia say that AI is basically ripping off their work without permission or credit and using it to create knockoff fake indigenous art to sell online retailers like Etsy, and it's turning into yet another threat to their livelihoods and

cultures. So these artists who are already struggling to compete with the tens of millions of dollars worth of fake art produced every year by non-Indigenous artists now have to compete with AI. So major shout-apps to Cam Wilson at the Australian news site, Kriki, for coverage on this. I'll link to Cam's piece in the show notes because it's very good. I think it's funny that there's an Australian new site called Krike. I know. It's like a fake thing. That being said, this is a very serious story and important. So I continue.

Yeah. Don't let the name, crikey, fool you. This is a very serious story. So Wilson says that AI-generated indigenous art is appearing on online marketplaces where art and derivative products are being sold and that those AI-generated fakes are often directly competing with the work from real indigenous artists, even though platforms often have policies that are supposed to protect indigenous culture from exactly this kind of thing. So Adobe and Shutterstock run popular stock images websites where people can buy AI generated images for a variety of commercial purposes.

And on both of those platforms, there are dozens of fake indigenous art style images. The images do have a label that they have been created using AI, but they're often like vaguely listed as being Aboriginal or indigenous art. On Adobe, people can upload AI images for sale and then earn a cut of the money every time those images are purchased. Now, the company is meant to only allow users to submit images that they own the intellectual property of, but it's not really clear, like, how is being policed. Platforms like Etsy and eBay are filled with cheap, digital AI generated prints intended to be printed and framed. And some of these online platforms do have policies in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening, but it's like not

clear how or why it's not really being enforced very well. So when we'll see at Cricky spoke to a spokesperson at Adobe, they didn't answer questions about whether AI-produced indigenous art violates their policies, but instead gave kind of a general blah, blah, blah, we care statement. They said, we are continually auditing, evaluating, and improving the Adobe stock collections to serve our customer's needs. That's like, you may as well have said nothing at that point. Like that's, that is a statement that says nothing. eBay's policy say that sellers must not list, sell, or promote materials, products, or services. that use indigenous culture and intellectual property in unauthorized ways, according to their spokesperson.

But when pressed on whether or not AI-generated art would violate this policy, they said how an artwork is created is irrelevant, and that a listing using indigenous art in an unauthorized way may breach that policy. Etsy has a policy that prohibits users from selling items falsely listed as being produced by indigenous people, but only in North America and does allow, quote, indigenous style products by non-indigenous people. So yeah, it just sounds like people are stealing from indigenous artists. AI is being trained on artwork and cultural work that has been stolen from indigenous artists. And then that fake artwork is being used to undercut actual indigenous artists who already have to compete with

non-AI generated fake indigenous artwork, a complete mess. Yeah. It's really just technology. You know, the latest technology aiding further colonization and colonial kind of ideas. And I, that is really messed up. Also, like, again, I was surprised to hear that Etsy prohibits users from selling, like, items that, you know, are listed as being produced by identity as people that aren't. Because, again, yeah, I feel like there's a lot of ways people get around that. Like, there's a lot of weird, especially, like, within, like, new agey kind of stuff, like a lot of very coded words that, you know, people use to kind of ignore the fact that they are just culturally

or like appropriating cultures that aren't their own or that aren't, you know, being made by the people that it's claiming to come from and all that. But yeah, that is, that is depressing. Yeah. And it's just like another way, just like you said, another way, that AI is being used to further oppress people who are already oppressed and already face so much, right? Like, it's just such a grim use of technology to continue to cut people out of their own culture so that other people can profit off of it. Yeah, right. And kind of like what I was saying with the other story too, where it's like, I feel like a lot of this is coming from these companies that don't understand that like art, like the value of art is that.

like part of it is the actual process of making the art and the culture that it's coming from and like art is culture art is a part of who we are it's it's so like it's such a closed-minded kind of it's such an almost honestly it is a sad kind like I feel sad for these people if your only view of art is like oh well like but computer can do it faster and cheaper and like that's what people want definitely like that's just that's just sad at a certain point. Like, I truly, like, you must not have any, like, do you feel joy at all? Damn, okay.

I don't know. And, like, I mean, this was the thing that struck me over the conversations around, like, screenwriters and actors and AI over the Hollywood strikes. It's like, if you value something so little, why do you want to be in charge of it? Why do you want to be a part of it? If you cannot see what makes this stuff great and special and what brings people and makes them feel connected to it, why do you even want to, why do you even want it? Why do you even want to be part of it?

It's like, if you can't see that, then what are you doing? You clearly don't get it. It's like another way that, like, rich people, we talked about this in a previous episode. I can't remember which one. My brain is mush from being sick. But rich people, they buy, they use their capital to acquire things and then they hate or don't understand those things. They buy things and then they hate those things and then ruin them because of that.

It's just like such a. It was the pitchfork. Messed up dynamic. Yeah. It was the pitchfork story, right? Last week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was.

It absolutely was. Yeah. I, like, it is so, it's so weird that, like, the people that are ruining the world and, like, the livelihoods of all of these people are, like, the people that also, it's like, what are you doing? Like, seriously. Like, where do you, how, how is this, how, why you've chosen to live your life? Like, do you not, yeah, do you not derive joy from anything?

if this is how you're viewing the world, it is, it is really weird. It is, but, you know, line go up, brain, I guess. Line go up. Yeah, and this is a real issue. I mean, indigenous artists have already have a hard time competing with people who create fake art and then try to pawn that art off as indigenous, even without AI being part of the conversation. A 2022 Productivity Commission Report found that 75% of indigenous-style goods were created by non-Indigenous people. Online art businesses were particularly bad. One stock image site analyzed

the commission had 80% of its indigenous style images authored by non-indigenous people. Similarly, 60% of listings on a print on-demand marketplace were also produced by non-indigenous creatives. Kriki spoke to this indigenous artist, Amy Allerton, who said that this is really offensive because oftentimes the art will just be like a random mish mash of designs. And it's like, will mix or mess up very distinctive and special styles from different indigenous nations and artists and just sort of like mush them together. Allerton said, it's a very colonial mindset that they are entitled to the entirety of us. Indigenous people don't have the power for self-determination that we want. This adds to the weight of all of that. It's like making me redundant. I think about myself,

if I were made redundant, that would be devastating. And yeah, I just really think that like does everything have to be a soulless cash grab? Does everything have to be about that, even art? It just, that's not the world I want to live in. Absolutely. But the world I do want to live in is one where I get to rebound up the news with you, Joey. So thank you so much for being here. Where can folks, what do you got going on that folks should know about?

Maybe the answer is nothing. Maybe you want to plug something. Thank you, Bridget. It was lovely, as always. even as the dystopian chaos continues. If you want to hear more

things that I'm working on, you should check out After Lives, the Layland Polanco story. Hopefully some new projects along the way. I should be on Stuff Mom never told you soon talking about more TikTok chaos in the state of

TikTok at the moment, which will be a fun time. So TVD on that. But yeah, if you want to follow me, as always, you can follow me on Twitter or Instagram at Pat Not Pratt. It's T-A-T-N-O-T-R-A-T-T-T. The first time I had you on the show, Joey, I think I credited you as Joey Pratt, and you were like, it's actually Pat not Pratt. That's actually why it's my social. Yeah. It has been my social since I was 16, and it was because I have had my entire life people calling me my last name Pratt, which is an understandable mistake, but that is not, in fact,

my last name. Pat not Pratt. Thank you for being here. And thanks to all of you for listening. If you want more ad-free content, check out our Patreon at patreon.com slash tangoity. See you on the internet. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our merch store at tangoity.com slash store.

Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say? Hi. You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your

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