There Are No Girls on the Internet - The Black Women Fighting Climate Injustice

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist turned climate activist. Here's why she has hope for the future. Get Dr. Johnson's book: https://www.amazon.com/All-We-Can-Save-Solutions/dp/0593237064Listen to Dr. Johnson's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-save-a-planet/id1525955817 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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844-844-I-Hart. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises. of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments.

If we didn't talk ever again, I was probably. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to him, he's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. My favorite Mr. Rogers saying goes like this. Whenever things are scary, look for the people who are helping. There are always helpers. And what's happening on our planet right now is scary.

The climate is warming. Sea levels are rising in coastal cities like New York and Miami. The West Coast has literally been on fire for weeks. Local species everywhere are threatened with extinction, and around the world, millions of people have already been displaced because of climate change. But as scary and hopeless as that all seems, we should look for the helpers. And even though traditionally marginalized people didn't create this problem, they're the ones who are helping to fix it.

Black women like Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. Dr. Johnson is on a mission to do something about climate change. Outside Magazine called her the most influential marine biologist of our time. In 2017, she helped organize the march for science, in part because she wanted to bust the myth that science is something that happens in a lab that doesn't really impact anyone's life. She takes audiences through accessible conversations

about climate solutions on her podcast with Alex Bloomberg called How to Save a Planet. And this fall, she published All We Can Save, Truth, Courage, and Solutions for the Climate Crisis, an anthology of writing from women climate activists at the front line of climate change. Now, instead of doom and gloom,

Dr. Johnson wants everyone to feel like they have a stake in conversations around climate. How? By doing what black women always do, through creating culture. When we spoke last fall, a profile of Dr. Johnson had just been published in the New York Times, not in the science section or the news section, but in the style section. Dr. Johnson uses culture to create conversations around climate that everyone can see themselves reflected in. The daughter of first and second generation immigrants,

Dr. Johnson's mission first began when she was a little girl who fell in love with the ocean. Why oceans? I just love the ocean. It's really lovable. It's really important, too, in terms of a climate system, but that's certainly not what made me decide to become a marine biologist at the age of five.

I think for so many people, we have this moment where we fall in love with nature. whether it's in the park or in your backyard or hiking or at the beach. And for me, it was at the beach when I was five, when I learned to swim, when I went on a glass bottom boat and saw a coral reef for the first time, when I held a sea urchin in my hand and was like, what, there is the whole other world happening under the water. And I just, I want to know everything about it.

And so that wonder and awe became concerned. as I learned how threatened ocean ecosystems were and then sort of became determination as I realized that I might be able to help be part of ocean conservation solutions and figure out how we could start to turn things around. So I watched a video of you, I think in the Caribbean, talking about your work with the oceans. You were driving around the beach in a jeep, you were scuba diving, you looked very, very happy. Humane being a marine biologist look very cool and very fun. I mean, some of that's not true, right?

Like, this work is hard. When that video was filmed, I was diving like four times a day for an hour or so each. The water's like 80 degrees and you're still shivering because your body temperature drops because you're in water that temperature for so long, even wearing a wetsuit. So you're like shivering in 80 degree water and like you're just salty and wrinkled and your skin and your hair and everything is just like angry at you. And it's exhausting. It's like physically really was extremely hard work that I was doing,

trying to do this experiment to see how we could redesign fish traps to make them more sustainable. So they were only catching the fish that the fishermen wanted. And I'm so glad I did that work. And I love being outside and being in the sun and in the water. but yeah, I'm sure some of those smiles were for the camera. It's not as glamorous as it looked. Something I really like about your work is that you focus on people, you know.

You talk about overfishing and climate change and habitat destruction and the ways that it disproportionately impacts poor people and marginalized people on coastal cities. So how can we get people to understand that this is an actual issue that impacts actual people and their lives? You know, it's not a pet issue for wealthy people who just own beach houses by the ocean, you know, nor is it an issue that's really abstract. You know, when I was coming of age, the big slogan around the environment was save the whales. And yes, save the whales, but also save us, save the people whose actual lives are at risk. Allow people to live actual, stable lives and not worry that everything they love and know is going to be washed out by some superstorm. Yeah, I think it's just talking about it more. So when we think about hurricanes, for example, which are getting stronger and wetter because of climate change, and we think about the coastal communities that are most affected, it is often poor communities and communities of color along the coast who are impacted the hardest. And those are not their vacation homes, right? Like they don't have another place to go. And so there's, There's a real need to think through more proactively because we know the storms are going to keep coming. We know the sea level is going to continue rising. Even if we stopped all emissions today, we've sort of already baked in a certain amount of change that we're going to continue to see.

And so we owe it to each other to start to think through how to adapt to this changing world. And for coastal communities, the term that's being used right now is called managed retreat. and managed retreat is this idea or planned retreat that we can't just fortify our coastlines and hold back the entire ocean. It's just not going to work. There's not enough money. There's not enough resources.

There's not enough time. We can't build a wall around all of the United States of America and other countries to protect ourselves from the rising waters. So that becomes a question of like, well, the waters are rising. how do we plan for that? How do we adapt for that? How do we move people out of harm's way? How do we try to keep communities together in that process?

Because people are really strongly tied to the places where they're from and to the people who they share that place with. And so there's a deep cultural conversation that needs to be had around our relationship with the coastline. And I think it's just really critical that we start having it sooner than later and not have this, not continue to live in denial of the fact that like, oh, we'll just rebuild after every storm. We'll just rebuild stronger because then we're just putting ourselves and each other continually, continually in harm's way instead of actually thinking through what would it look like to adapt to this new normal. which is a really sad conversation to have to have, but ignoring it doesn't make it go away

and ignoring it means that the people with the fewest resources to move or to rebuild will continue to bear the brunt of the impacts of climate change because what we've seen all over the world is that the people who did the least to cause it, who use the least fossil fuels, who have the least money, are the ones who are disproportionately impacted.

And so this idea of climate justice and a just transition and really needing to think through how we take care of each other as we figure out how to adapt to climate change is just so critical. Otherwise, we can imagine this world in which we're just implementing these techno-utopian Silicon Valley solutions that don't actually take into consideration people and culture and really. race and class and access to resources as we think about what we want to do. What is the link between racism and climate change? One way to think about the link between racism and climate change is sort of who lives where. And often when we think about New Orleans or we think about New York, poor people and people of color live in the most low-lying, most vulnerable areas. in New York City, when Hurricane Sandy hit, that became really apparent.

A lot of the housing projects were right on the coast in these really dangerous spots. And a lot of those people were renters and didn't have insurance that would help them put their lives back together. And certainly the same was true in New Orleans as that absolute travesty played out. I'm told that the Norland police put out a call to all its officers saying, if you have a boat, bring it here, help us. These are people who do not have the wherewithal to get out of town. They didn't have cars. There's no way they could pay for a hotel room.

They stayed in their houses because they had to. And then the water came up. And I think what people don't realize when we think about these storms is that a lot of the damage is done afterwards. It's not the wind. it's the water and it's how long we wait to clean things up. It's how long it takes to start the recovery effort. It's whether or not we foolishly rebuild in the same place.

And those are all decisions that are made by people in power who prioritize certain demographics or others often. And so we've seen that play out time and time again. And certainly New Orleans is a prime example of that, just the utter neglect of the communities down there and what they would have needed to get back on their feet. So it's hard to think through these things in general terms sometimes, these connections between climate change and racism. but it's the same, it's the same system. It's the same sort of neglect. It's the same overlooking that you see in education or healthcare. When we think about who we're prioritizing as we sort of move forward as a society

and who we're sort of okay leaving behind. And so I'm just, I've just been. really pleased in the last year to see this term climate justice really become a major rallying call for the broader climate movement. And environmental justice advocates have been working on these issues for a really long time, but they haven't been brought into the mainstream environmental movement until the last few years. And now when you go to a climate march, one of the major chance that you hear is, what do we want climate justice? When do we want it now? And to hear that being like the most popular chant to me signals that we may actually be at a really important inflection point in the climate movement where people realize that we can't separate the injustices of who's bearing the brunt of these climate impacts with the need to address the climate problem more generally.

When I first heard the term climate injustice or climate justice, that blew my mind. it really helps me understand the sort of depth of the issue in a way that I feel like climate change doesn't really encompass. Yeah. I mean, when you think about who created the problem, right? It's fossil fuel companies. It's politicians who are in their pockets and not actually representing the best interest of their constituents.

It's actually like a pretty small group of people with a lot of money and a lot of power who created this mess. So it's insanely unjust when we think about poor. communities and communities of color who are just slammed with all of the impacts of that. The heat waves. I mean, just thinking about people who can't afford to run their air conditioners all the time and whose electricity bills are going through the roof because the temperatures are changing. When we think about farmers who the seasonal changes are impacting their ability to grow food

and the floods that are coming and damaging all the farms in the Midwest. I mean, all of these things, those people didn't cause them. We didn't cause this individually. There's a whole system set up to subsidize the fossil fuel industry. And until just recently, it's worked way too well. I mean, the development of solar and wind and all these renewable energies has been slowed down. by people who are worried about impacting their profits to see these other cleaner, renewable approaches become more common.

And so when we think about it in those very stark terms of who caused the problem and who's getting screwed, it becomes so clear that this is just a massive injustice. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygle and friends, me and hilarious guests, from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day

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The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged, one erection.

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and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions,

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If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs, Gabby Thomas, and Katie Ladeke. The ability to show a gold medal to someone

and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win. more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning.

It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Let's get right back to it. Does the massive scale of the climate injustice happen in? on our planet, make you feel a certain kind of dread about our collective future? If so, you're not alone. Do you ever feel kind of a massive sense of existential dread?

Yes. When you think about this? I mean, like, how do you, how do you stave that all? Like, how do you not feel complete on wee, I guess, all the time? It's really scary. I mean, I read the scientific projections, and I'm, like, deeply concerned about it. the future and not just because of how much the climate is changing, but also because, like, humans can be really terrible to each other in times of crisis. There are these beautiful moments where

people come together and help each other in a moment of crisis. And then, you know, if the crisis is prolonged, people start to fight for limited resources and scarcity drives all sorts of conflict. And so I'm not just worried about like the changes to the physical climate and what the impact of that has. But like I'm worried about how we're going to treat each other. Like are we going to have the generosity that we need and the collective spirit that we need to get through this together? And so yeah, I'm really worried and I'm really scared. And the thing that keeps me going is trying to just figure out how I can contribute. because we really do have a lot in our hands of how bad it gets.

The climate has already changed. We can't stop climate change. But we certainly can think about and act on how do we minimize the impacts. How do we actually transform our society into one where we can continue to thrive that will look very different, but could be more egalitarian and sense. safer and healthier because the fossil fuel industry has also just absolutely been damaging to public health and air quality. And we think about all of the inner city communities or communities near power plants that are breathing in all these emissions. That's environmental racism too.

Right. And so not only do we have to think about the long-term impacts of our current system, but also there are some really short-term benefits of getting it together. So I guess what the science says is that there's a huge range of possible future still. Like we can't go back to the past climate, but we still have massive influence over what the future climate looks like. Are we going to warm, you know, one and a half degrees or two degrees or three degrees global average? Are we going to have, you know, three feet of sea level of sea level, of sea level rise or three meters of sea level rise. Like those are, that's within our control.

And I just, I know that we have all the solutions we need. Like, we literally have them from transforming our agriculture to regenerative practices to absorb more carbon to renewable clean energy to electrifying transportation. Like we already have the solutions we need. We could certainly use more technological advancement. But like, we could do it now with what we already know. It's just a matter of getting corporations and politicians and finance all headed in the right direction. So although I'm really, really scared, and sometimes I read the latest scientific reports and just cry on the subway, I also know that it's way too soon to give up. And there's so much that we can shift and influence and shape.

Like if black people are not part of the conversation of policymaking and the direction of financing and how we're going to adapt locally to all these impacts, then we won't come up with the solutions we need and we won't be protecting the people that we love. And so I feel like it's, I started out as a marine biologist and now I work on climate basically full-time. I'm not scuba diving and counting fish anymore. I'm thinking about how do we leverage all this amazing science and information we have to make really good decisions about the future and about how we can protect each other and minimize the risks that we're facing. So I think if I weren't participating in the solutions, I would be totally overwhelmed. But there's

a way that everyone can be part of the solution. There's a way that we can do it by voting and holding our elected officials accountable, making sure they are pushing through the strongest possible climate policy. And that's not just at a presidential level. That's at a state and local level where a lot of these decisions get made about what are the sources of energy, how are we adapting to these changes in weather, how are we making buildings more energy efficient, are we transforming our public transit systems? A lot of these are local decisions and making sure that our politicians know

that we are holding them accountable and that they have our permission to charge ahead with all these important things. That's one way that people can be involved. Another one is certainly thinking about how you can vote with your dollars. Every dollar we spend is an investment, in the future that we want to see. And that makes me feel really powerful sometimes, even though I

don't have as many dollars as other people for sure. But I think when I think about, you know, where, what bank I use or where I have my retirement fund or which funds that's invested in, am I investing in the continuation of the fossil fuel economy or am I putting my money where my mouth is and actually making sure that that money is going towards renewables and other shifts towards the future that we need. And then I also love to think about, you know, how we use our networks and our time. Everyone is super influential in their sphere, whether that's their family or their school or their church or their sports team and or their office.

And I think the transformations that we can make in those areas can be really, influential. If we can shift a place that we work towards reducing waste and renewable energy, that's massive. If we can change our school, our church, to investing in renewable energy and different transportation systems, that makes a really big deal. So I think there's this middle ground between individual actions. People like to think of it as like, I'll reduce my carbon footprint as an individual. Or you think about it as like massive social change. That's like, how can you even think about how to participate in that?

But there's this whole middle ground of things that we can do to shift whatever our sphere of influences. And everyone's got these special skills, right? So like, if you're a podcast host, obviously we should be talking about this everywhere all the time. If you're a lawyer, there's so much work to be done. If you're an artist, there's so much cultural work that needs to be done to shift the status quo and just change the public discourse. If you throw great parties, like, we need to be bringing people together around these issues. If you're good at getting people to open their wallets, like, we need to fund this transformation. So whatever it is that people are good at, they can bring that to this work.

and we don't have to create something new. We can collaborate under existing structures. We can join existing organizations. And there's just lots of different ways to plug in. So I really want people to understand that everyone can be a part of the solution. There's a role for everyone to play no matter how much money you have or how much time you have or what your area of expertise is. Like this is this incredible all hands on deck moment.

And we have to completely transform society. And we need everyone to be a part of that. And thankfully, this movement is finally diversifying. So it's a more welcoming home for everybody too. As big and scary as climate change feels, there are still reasons to be hopeful. Our climate movement is becoming bigger and more inclusive, with more and more people feeling like they can meaningfully take part in it. And whereas climate was once treated like a niche issue a few years ago,

now politicians are actually incorporating it into their plans. During the Democratic presidential primary, Dr. Johnson helped then presidential primary candidate Elizabeth Warren draft the first ever Blue New Deal, a plan for our oceans. In the same way that this election cycle has seen every Democratic presidential candidate release climate policy proposals. I'd love to see more people step up and think about their ocean policy proposals as a part of that and more broadly. We've seen this really beautiful race to the top in terms of who has the best climate policy being a thing that people are now competing for, which is totally unprecedented.

It used to be like a side issue. And now, even though the moderators at the debates aren't really asking enough questions about it, and even though it's not really getting enough coverage on major news outlets, the Green New Deal in particular, the candidates are talking about it anyway because they know that the voters are super concerned. Climate is the number one issue for a huge number of voters. And communities of color are more concerned often than their white counterparts about how this will impact them because communities of color know they're on the front lines of these changes. So we have now, for the first time, reached this tipping point where their majority of Americans are concerned or alarmed about the impacts of climate change.

And so politicians are following our lead to try to address these concerns. And so culture leads politics. And so there's this great opportunity to combine our. and culture to think about how do we want to envision and design the world we want to live in and how can we push policy to help facilitate that transition that we need? Absolutely. Like that's exactly what we want to do, sort of be part of that cultural shifts because not everybody is, you know, a scientist.

Not everybody can get involved in that level, but just like what you were saying, everybody has their role to play, whether you're a podcast host or you're just like, the mouthy person in your family who's going to, you know, make your mom stop using single-use plastics or whatever, you know? And I think that's really important that we talk about it because a lot of people think that other people aren't concerned. They don't want to bring it up. You don't want to have an argument with like a climate denier. But the vast majority of Americans know that climate change is happening and are really concerned. And the more that we can talk about it and talk about what we want to do about it, the faster we can get these solutions up and running. And so I just want to

encourage everyone listening to talk about this with your friends and your family and your coworkers, because if we ignore it, that's certainly not going to help. And if we don't talk about it, other people don't know that it's okay to talk about it. It's okay to be concerned. And if people don't hear others talking about it, you think, well, maybe it's not that big a deal. Maybe I'm just, like, freaking out for no reason. And so that is one thing that absolutely everyone can do is just start talking about it so we can all work through this crazy mess together. For a long time, the climate movement felt so overwhelmingly white. How does it feel to know there are so many amazing black women leaders in the space? You know, I think some folks might be surprised to find that out. I mean,

I mean, who was surprised that black women are leaders? Like those people clearly haven't been paying attention to American history, right? I think this intersection of climate change and social justice means that, you know, and it's to people who are in this field or related fields, it's so stark and we need to do what we can to address. that. And so the NAACP has had a climate and environmental justice program for over a decade led by Jackie Patterson, which is amazing and doing really important work. There's Kendra Pierre Lewis, who's on the climate desk at the New York Times, writing some of the most important stories about this work. Rihanna Gunn Wright, who's one of the policy leads for the Green New Deal.

There's a whole crew of incredible, brilliant, and generous, and and big-hearted women of color doing this work. And it's just such a joy to get to collaborate with them and see how they're doing this work and approaching it in a much more nuanced way. And that gives me a lot of, it makes me really happy. It's really beautiful.

And the sass and the joy and the, creativity that black women are bringing to this space is just overwhelmingly beautiful. So if anyone else wants to get in the game, there's plenty of room and there's so much work to be done. Dr. Ayanna Johnson, saving the planet while also talking style in the pages of the New York Times. Oh my God, that was bananas. Which, by the way, the coolest thing I've ever seen. So awesome. Trying to get this in the center of culture, right?

Like if climate and ocean issues are just in the science section, then we lose. This has to be in the style section. Like, help me make this cool, Bridget. Well, I think you're doing a great job. I'll do what I can. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com.

There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts.

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help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything.

Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season, and I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry.

You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

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