There Are No Girls on the Internet - The Internet Wasn’t Always Run by Villains. Anil Dash Explains What Happened

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Why does it feel like the main voices dominating tech today are basically super villains? Billionaires who don’t care if the world gets worse, just as long as they get a little richer. We hear them everywhere— their bad ideas, their grievances are all amplified.  Anil Dash, one of the internet’s earliest voices, says it didn’t used to be this way. He's been a highly visible and impactful techie, writer, and entrepreneur for decades. In this thoughtful, wide-ranging, and optimistic interview, he talks with Bridget about how fun and personal the early Internet was, why tech bros keep making it worse, and how we can create a better Internet that once again centers fun, compassion, and human connection.     If you’re listening on Spotify, leave a comment there to let us know what you thought about this interview, or email us at [e-mail]!   Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media! Many vids each week ||  instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc/ || tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc ||  youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us, Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall. as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now.

Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The whole internet is made of people, and I think it's easy to forget that because we've been taught these myths that it is all these giant corporations. Also the myth of like, you know, this billionaire founders. And it's like, now those dudes are sitting on top of work that regular folks made.

There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd. And this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Why does it feel like the main voices dominating tech today are basically supervillains? Billionaires who don't care if the world gets worse just so long as they get a little bit richer. We hear them absolutely every. their bad ideas, their grievances, it's all amplified. Like a handful of angry rich dudes are the only ones who matter.

But we know those are not the only people shaping tech. Because there are brilliant, diverse, ethical creators who have been overlooked or outright erased or silenced in favor of the loudest, most morally bankrupt and often wrongest voices. Writer and entrepreneur, Anil Dash, one of the Internet's earliest OG voices, says it didn't used to be this way. Anil, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

So you were one of the first wave of very cool tech people. People like you, I'm not even kidding, are why I wanted to be in tech in the first place. Oh, wow. That's really kind. And so as one of the OG, like wave of bloggers, what was it like? What do you miss about this earlier iteration of the Internet? Oh, you know, I'm always cautious about good old days, but it was something. special in terms of we knew that it was like genuinely new. Like we knew that, you know, the early

days of the social web that this was something everybody was going to be doing and that those of us that were making friends, we could see that like, oh, pretty soon everybody is going to be making friends online and and connecting and that, you know, that idea of like sharing photos with somebody online with something and everybody was going to be doing. And that seemed wild in like 1999 or 2000. What do you think has changed since then? I think all of the horrible things that we encountered,

everybody else has too. So the sense of like, you know, before we had the word catfishing, that was around. And even just the awkward parts, like even the stuff that's just not like hugely terrible, but the, you know, the ordinary indignities,

like the things where you have that, you know, frustration of, I wish I didn't have to see that person in my timeline, or I wish that I could just get a break from seeing, you know, doom scrolling or whatever. You know, that stuff all existed in its own basic way even 15 years ago, 20 years ago, a long time ago. And then you could see, again, like, this is something we're all going to be dealing with on a daily basis. And that inevitability, I think, was a big part of what we had hoped maybe we would have a solution for before now. That is a story we tell often on this show, how the, I like how you use the words like everyday indignities. These things that, you know, a particular group is experiencing and it's like kind of a canary in a coal mine where it's like, this is going to be the norm for everybody who's online one day if we don't take the serious or we don't do something about this or we don't change this. And then it just becomes what it feels like to be online. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think, and that's, you know, the classic story is obviously anybody in any marginalized group could see, you know, this is how we're being targeted or, or this is how we bonded together and how we formed our communities to protect each other or just to celebrate each other, right, in the positive sense. And so you could see that these were these just ways of being that we're going to be. inevitable that we're going to be ubiquitous. And then, you know, it just, it took in some ways so much longer to become a common knowledge. You know, you would think, okay, this will be instant. Any day now, everybody's going to have really good tools to like, you know, protect themselves or everybody's going to understand how joyous it is to find your people online and to make those connections. And, you know, a day would go by and a month we go by and a year would go

by and a decade would go by. And then you would still not have good tools or you would still not have a way of discovering. I mean, the example I always think of was, this is sort of a minor one, but there were photo sharing apps in, like, 2002 or 2003 that were pretty good. Before that, you would have to like literally scan like film photos, right? And then people were like, no, there's digital cameras. We're going to put these online. and some of the early ones were called Photonet and Flickr. And those are the first ones I felt like, oh, no, you know, you have communities online. And pretty soon they realized, wait, people are tagging locations on these.

And even some of these cameras actually know your location, like they had GPS by that time. And so, like, no, we got to take that out because people are going to stalk each other. It's going to be creepy. And I think Flickr was the first one. And it was like really the first kind of social network around photos that felt like, you know, like what we all do on Instagram every day now. And so they're like, nope, we're going to take out location. We can't have people creeping on each other and we're going to do the right thing.

And this is literally 20 plus years ago. They figured out the right thing to do. And I kid you not, literally every year since then, somebody has launched a new photo sharing app that includes the location from the photos that it gets from your camera and does not take the location out. and then somebody like creeps on somebody else and they realize oh gosh we should take the location out and it's like groundhog day like nobody ever learns this lesson and it's always some dude who's like gosh you know why wouldn't I want my location out there I didn't understand and and I just like

every time I'm like you know there is like this is a lesson that we have learned this you can just you can just look like you can just Google it like it's out there and and and I'm always like you know, this time for sure, they're going to learn. And in the 20th straight year that it happened, I was like, no, they're just never going to learn. Believe it or not, Anil and I were talking before Instagram's disastrous rollout of an opt-in location sharing feature. So when you posted a photo on Instagram, if you opted in, your location would automatically show up on a map. And the public reaction to this was not good. Instagram really could not have handled it worse.

And the overwhelming question I was left with was who exactly was asking for this feature from Instagram in the first place? We know how this story ends and people just don't learn. That's something that I really appreciate about your work is that I read your blog and oftentimes you're like, stepping back and asking the question of, do we actually want this? Or is anybody asking for this thing?

Like, is this new tech thing that everybody is trying to make us think is going to be great? Does anybody want this? Who is asking for this? That's a question. I feel like we could benefit from asking a little bit more. Is this actually serving a need that somebody has articulated? Yeah, I'm hoping. And the thing is, like, I love tech.

You know, I've been a nerd my whole life. And I was lucky. I got a, you know, a computer when I was a kid. And this is back in the 80s when that was rare. And, you know, my folks were, as immigrants, they were just like, you know, scraping by and saving for us to get a computer. And so I was really appreciative. So I still feel lucky.

Like, I can get a, you know, a new phone every couple years, and I, I geek out about it. Like, I'm not, you know, I couldn't be more pro tech. I, but I also am like, it does have to be for something. Like, it's not just for its own sake. And so part of the reason I'm, I'm, you know, skeptical or critical of it is because I like it. Right. Like, I don't want it to just be mindless because I, I like to take it apart. I like to see how it works. Like, that's part of appreciating it. You know, And I think it's sort of like, you know, like enjoying a good meal. Like you don't just shovel it in your face, right? Like, you know, you're like, I want to taste it. You know, or, you know, like anything that's really great that you love, you sort of want to sit there and enjoy. Like you almost are like, you know, whatever, you're at a concert. You're like, I don't want it to be over, you know, or a great movie. And I think that's kind of it.

It's like that that mindlessness around the tech is this, I don't think. they even love it. And so I think that's some of what I, I'm so, you know, resentful over sometimes is some of these folks making the terrible tech that, that's creepy, or they does terrible things with your data, or it's just thoughtless that makes these communities that are, that people are being horrible to each other on. I think the people making it don't love tech. Like, I think that's how you end up there. And I'm very, um, I am. resentful of it because I'm like, you know what? You're lucky to get to do this. I feel lucky to get to do this to be making, you know, even still today, like I get to make, I have a website I've been working on for 25 plus

years. I get to write stuff. On the weekends, I still tinker on it. Like I still am messing with like the style of it and the designs. It's like, you know, 10 people looking at it's like nobody looking at it. And I still feel lucky to get to do it. And, you know, I think these people that get a hundred million dollars to make an app, I think they take it for granted. They don't feel lucky to get to do it. Anil says there used to be a time where the decent, thoughtful people in tech had an easier time rising to the top and taking up space. But then came the tycoons. They erased the work of the smarter, more diverse creators and kind of convinced us that technology only happens at a handful of giant companies made by a handful of tech tycoons. And none of that, Anil says, is true.

So what changed? How did we get here? What do you think happened to get us to this point? I mean, there's so many things. I mean, the easy answer is, you know, it became the biggest industry in the world, right? And it used to be a place for hobbyists. And, you know, that's the easy answer. It's a true answer. But it sort of mirrors so many other things.

I'm a big music fan. I always look at that as one example, right? which is, you know, I think anybody who loves music can think of a undersung artist that they love, like a local indie artist or even, you know, live in New York City and I can go on a subway platform and see somebody who blows me away, you know, just an incredible voice. And you're just like, wow, this person, you know, everybody in the world should hear them. And you're like, they're a better singer than somebody I can hear, you know, on the radio or something. And so, you know, it's not always fair.

Like the, it's not mapping all this to talent, right, or skill. And so some of that is, like I said, it's just commercialism. It's just like there's the maturity of an industry as there's going to be a handful of giant companies. But I think it's also familiarity, right? I do use the food analogy a lot, which is that we have a, you know, a handful of giant fast food. tech companies, you know, and, you know, if I'm in the airport, I'm going to have McDonald's and it's fine, you know what I mean? But I'm not having that every meal, you know, like, I would not feel good to have that every meal. And, you know, the answer that people are familiar with is like,

okay, well, if you don't like McDonald's have Burger King, it's like, that is not the answer, right? You've got to have a home-cooked meal and you've got to have your family recipes and you've got to have your memories of sitting down to a meal with your loved ones, right? And that the, how many of the best meals or the best memories of your life are in the kitchen with your family, right? And it's not even sitting down to the meal. It was in the kitchen cooking, right? And I think about that in tech, which is that I have so many of the best memories of my technical life building stuff with people that I care about, that I care about, that become my closest friends. I'm not kidding. It's the truth, right? Is that I can, I can remember,

you know, building a website, building an app with people that I genuinely love, that we were bonded by like, we're going to put something out in the world. And it might not be something that, you know, a billion people use, but it is something that we put our hearts into and that we care about it. And we know we're going to find other people who care about it. I mean, I had this experience, as we record this, um, over the weekend. And I had built an app with a friend of mine, Gina Trapani, that was about your social media activity, like how to make it more meaningful. This was a decade ago. And we had to shut it down.

Like, it didn't succeed as a business because you were trying to get your data from Twitter and Instagram, and they wouldn't let us keep getting the data back then. Like, they were like locking that down. And, you know, it was bittersweet. Like we tried to make a go of it. It didn't succeed. I don't, you know, I'm not lamenting that too much. And over the weekend, I got this message on Blue Sky that a developer had built a tribute to it using Blue Sky where he was doing the same kind of analytics that we had done for Twitter using Blue Sky. And our app was called ThinkUp.

And he's like, this is my tribute to Think Up. And I was so touched. Like, I genuinely got choked up. And I was just like, somebody remembered the app that we made? You know, and this is 10 years ago and made like his own version of it and sent me the link and it just out of the blue, you know, and somebody remembers what you made. And that was like, you know, there's no, that's not a, you know, that's not a app that anybody's still running. That is not something that, you know, ever got an IPO or got acquired by anybody. Like, that's not something that has any of the things that people think of as success in tech.

but it had heart and it was something that evidently the community meant something to people. And so I think people don't think of the Internet as that thing, but that is what the Internet mostly is. Most communities on the Internet are healthy. And people don't want to believe that because they see these giant ones that are full of toxic behavior, that are full of this unhealthiness. Most of the communities that have ever existed on the Internet are healthy. Most of the websites that have ever existed on the Internet were made by a person for people that they knew. Right. Most of the meals are home-cooked. And so I think that's something that people really forget. And I think people could tell that that was an app made with love by people that cared

about each other for a community that cared about each other. And that's what most of the Internet has been for most of its history. And there is no reason it cannot be that again. That's such a good reminder of health, like, of the legacy of people who cared about making thoughtful shit online. Like, we really owned the Internet for a while there. And even if it doesn't seem like it today, like that's real. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

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What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get to fly.

He running up the court, licking his fingers while he got the bar. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain.

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All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it.

Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At our back. Anil is right. It's very easy to fall for false nostalgia for the early days of the internet, which definitely had its problems. But y'all, it was also so much fun. Remember the first time you stumbled upon a weird little website or a weird pocket of the internet that made no sense but you loved for some reason? Like websites that were just weird little. flash cartoons. There was a time in my life where the funniest thing in the whole world to me

was a loop of the actor Sean Connery from the movie Finding Forrester saying, You're the man now dog for some reason. I don't know. It was stupid, but it was great. And somehow it was ours. I was sort of taking a trip down memory lane as you were speaking about what it felt like to stumble upon a website or a little pocket of the internet where you felt your people were showing up there and it felt good or you were excited about something. And I feel like, you know, we've all had that. Like it doesn't take much to prompt people about what they remember of the good stuff, you know. And I, there's so many examples.

I was watching a, you know, a YouTube video over the weekend. And it was like about a film or something. And the woman who was hosting it just offhandedly mentioned making a MySpace site, you know, back in the day. And she just sort of said it like in passing. And, you know, it's 30, 40 million people had made a MySpace site back. And they were all coders, right? Like, they had to do code to do that. And like, those folks were all still around. Like, they didn't, like, get disappeared. You know what I mean? Like, like, they didn't get Thanos snapped. Like, they're still all here. And, and so, like, there is still a latent cultural memory of, like,

I made the internet. Like, all those people made the internet. And they, know how to do it. They still got the ability to do it. Like, they can come back. And so I think that part of, like, the internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us. I think is still there. And, you know, it doesn't mean that we all have to become coders or something. I just think the sense of that it could be something that is good to us and good for us that feels a little bit more homegrown and that is not inflicted upon us. I think that is something that we could have a, you know, a cultural memory of, and that that can prompt us to ask more of it, right? That can help us believe that it doesn't have to be, like I said, as toxic

as it's become or as extractive as it's become or that it's going to constantly be surveilling us or taking our data or doing things without our consent. I mean, I think that's one of those words that I just keep coming back to over and over, especially in the sort of AI era, is, you is consent. You know, I think we just do not hear that word in an internet or technology context nearly often enough. And it is the fundamental framing that we really should be thinking about and so many of interactions with technology.

I would argue that there's like a cultural dynamic now where when you show up to an online platform or something that there's just an understanding that you don't, there is no consent. Like, this is the cost of using it. Like, if you want to, you know, post your pictures, you have to also share your location with a million people that you don't know. Like, I think that we have a warped relationship where it's like, oh, the tech companies and the people that run them get to make all the decisions that can take whatever they want for me. They can benefit from what they take however they want. And I just don't get to say it.

If I don't like it, don't show up online. Don't use these platforms. We should be able to expect more. And in fact, I think we deserve more. Absolutely. It's coercive. It's manipulative. I mean, I think, you know, the sort of classic example is the, you know, at the beginning

at the social network with Zuckerberg putting up the pictures of, you know, all these women around the campus at Harvard that he's sort of rating. And, you know, those images are not gathered with consent either, right? And the, you know, I say this as like, you know, I've been the CEO of a tech company multiple times at my career. And one of the things you do is you create a terms of service, right? And, you know, there's very little case law establishing whether terms of services are actually enforceable at all. And one of the reasons why is almost every terms of service, this is a little secret to tell you as somebody who's been on the hook for these, almost all these terms of service

are basically, we can change this at any time. and like, where do they do that at? Like, what kind of contract? What, how do I never sign anything in my life that's like, and we might just change it. Like, what, what is that? And if we change it, we might let you know, maybe. Maybe. Maybe.

Maybe. Okay. Like, that's not a thing. That is not a thing. there's no contract in the world that works like that. That's not a thing. And like, I'm sorry. I'm just like, you know, and like I said, I've written some of those,

so I probably should, you know, have some feelings about it. But I just, every time we put one of those out, I was like, I don't know. I don't know about this. And so we try, you know, in fairness, like I tried to be very thoughtful about that. And we always did, you know, advanced. notice of changes on other companies that I, you know, was leading. But I think it's tough because that is the overriding principle for all these platforms. And I remember Facebook used to have a thing, people won't remember this because this is

more than 10 years ago. Facebook used to have a thing where they would have a governing council where people could weigh in on terms of service changes, right? And they're like, if more than 30% of our users don't like this, we're not going to do it. And it was like this like, you know, you get a vote. And it never happened. Like they never put anything up to a vote. Of course, they didn't, right?

And then, and this all was reminding me of the, I'm a real nerd, but at the beginning of Star Wars, the first one, a new hope. They're like, you know, the emperor is dissolved the Senate. It's like the first thing he does. They're like, now that we have the death star, we don't need to worry about that anymore. And literally, like, you know, Zuckerberg is like, yeah, yeah, we're not doing the voting on the terms of service thing anymore. And that's like the emperors have all dissolved the Senate. So I just think about like they stop the pretense that you can even vote on the terms of service. And I'm like, why did they even bother going through the reasons?

They can change it at any time on their own unilaterally. And what are you going to do? leave Facebook, right? And I think that's the other part. It's like, even if there were, like, because people say, well, why don't you close your account? And, and, you know, I think about this where like, you know, I have family, my family is one of the most rural parts of India.

And, you know, the only reasonable way to communicate with them is WhatsApp, you know. And what am I going to not talk to my cousins, right? Like not be in touch with my family. That, that is too much coercive power. That is an absurd thing to dangle over somebody's head is like you're not going to talk to your family again. I'd say, I think it's a violation of the Geneva Convention's of torture, right, to inflict on somebody. So, no, there actually isn't a way to opt out of the terms of service. Like you are not going to disconnect people from their world, from their livelihood, from their families.

And when I say livelihood, I literally mean it like in the case of my family. they're in a very rural area and they're rice farmers and they're in the rice paddy. And so they use WhatsApp to get the price of rice at the market that is often 12 hours away where they trade their rice. And so that is a, you know, livelihood sustaining information path for them. They're not going to be like, we don't like the terms of service. Therefore, we're not trading rice this season. Right?

So like these are not like, again, I don't think of most Americans or people in the wealthy world really understand the level of infrastructure that these things present for the rest of the world. But like, what are they going to say? No, we read the terms of service and we're not going to really agree to this change. And so I think those things are like, these legal contracts are functioning as government for billions of people around the world. And that level of coercive power, we have to have some kind of corrective around. And that's not the place for, these companies to be playing. That's a completely different thing than they're supposed to be.

And what we used to have back in the day was we would make a, you know, at what we call it a technical level, an open standard. And this is what, like, you know, on the internet,

we used to have HTML and that's where you can make a web page and anybody can make a web page. And we would make these systems work together. And even like podcasts, right? So like a podcast, you're like, listen to this podcast on whatever app you want. Great.

So I can listen to this on all my different devices. And that's what the, you know, the WhatsApp. or even the Facebooks or the Instagrams of the world should be, like use this on whatever app or whatever platform you want. And if we have those kinds of systems, then they don't have that same coercive power

and we can sort of pick and choose which companies and which platforms we want to work with. That's how the Internet was supposed to work. That starts to have that corrective power where we can make choices about what we're doing and be a little bit less getting our arms twisted. We got to talk about this because, you know, at the end of every episode of this very podcast, I say,

listen to there are no girls on the internet on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Truly, this is not just something I say. It means something, something kind of revolutionary, actually. As Anil puts it, being able to say, or wherever you get your podcasts, is a radical statement, because what it represents is the triumph

of exactly the kind of technology that's supposed to be impossible. Open, empowering technology that's not owned by any one company that can't be controlled by anyone company and that allows people to have ownership over their work and their relationship with their audience. Honestly, that dynamic is why I became a podcaster in the first place. I'm so glad you brought up that example.

This is like a pet thing for me as a podcaster, but I did read your piece about how, you know, at the end of every podcast, I say like, get it wherever you find your podcasts. And you talked about how it's like a radical, it's like a quietly radical thing to say that is ubiquitous in the podcast space and that it is how technology is meant to be, right?

Like, it's empowering that it's not owned by one company and it can't be controlled by any one company, you know, that's not the ownership model. And I don't know, something about that is very empowering that if, let's say, for whatever reason, like I had beep with Spotify, Spotify alone could not like end this podcast. That's empowering.

Yes, it's huge. And, you know, it's funny too, because that's why you also don't hear people, you know, fussing about like, oh, you know, why is my podcast being censored? And I can't go up the podcast charts because anybody can just make a podcast and put it out there. And so it's the way it's supposed to work. Right. And I think that's a really powerful thing.

And it also proves that it can work. Like these open systems can work. And I think that the thing people that are skeptical, understandably say, well, you have to have a big company because that's the only way that you're going to get in front of millions of people or billions of people. It has to be, you know, it takes this huge infrastructure and these giant companies to really reach a big audience and to, you know, sustain something. And, you know, I understand why they feel that way because that's what they've seen from the, you know, YouTube's of the world and the Instagrams of the world. And then it's so helpful to have these

counter examples, which is like, no, no, no, there are these amazing, you know, platforms, these amazing media, you know, examples. that we can point to that are as good as anything out there that are using open systems and that are easy and that we listen to every day. And that's how the internet was supposed to work and they're still vibrant and they're still active. And I think even the rise of email newsletters

in the last several years where everybody's, you know, everybody I know is subscribing to a couple. And again, that's just a totally open system that email is decades old and still works every day. And I read them every day, you know, like friends write them. And I think those are just great reminders that like these, you know, technical architectures of the internet were built

really, really wisely and they have adapted so much and evolved so much. And also they've been constantly growing too. They're not stuck where they were in like the 80s or the 90s. Like they've continued to evolve. And I think one of the things that's so fun and interesting too is they're like they're just made by regular people, you know? The like podcasts, like a lot of the people that pioneered them. There's a technology state whiner who was one of the first people that created the spec. And, you know, he's like just a guy who lives here in New York and he's a Mets fan. And like one of the people that helped create it, that spec was Aaron Schwartz, who was a real pioneer of this stuff. And, you know, he was a friend. And I miss him. He passed away,

you know, more than a decade ago. And, and, you know, just to have like these people who are human and and pains in the ass and, you know, and creative. And they're not companies. You know what I mean? They're not billion-dollar companies and they're not global titans. They're just, you know, humans. I think that that's just part of it, too, is that people can create things that have that kind of impact.

And so I think that really sort of proves out the every part of it. Like we can be people that make podcasts. we can be people that make the technology that makes podcasts. We can make the whole thing the whole way down. The whole internet is made of people. And I think it's easy to forget that because we've been taught these myths, that it is all these giant corporations and that there is also the myth of like these billionaire founders.

And it's like, now those dudes are sitting on top of work that regular folks made. And their platforms exist because of the regular people on them. And I think that's a real important story to keep repeating. Oh, God, I have so much to say. First of all, my first ever job in podcasting was on a podcast that Aaron Schwartz was the co-founder of called the Flaming Sword of Justice. It was all about, like, using the power of the Internet to tell, like, social justice stories with all the sort of grandeur of David and Goliath myths, right? And it was back in the early, early, early days of podcasting. So like nobody knew what the fuck we were doing.

We were, like, it just, but it was so fun to be in a space where, you know, we were just making something. And like, it didn't really have the idea in our head that it super mattered how many people listened. Like today when I put a podcast out, I'm like, how many downloads did it get? Right. I didn't have the wherewithal to like really internalize that as a metric that I needed to be thinking about.

was just such a fun time. And, you know, I think this is like one of the reasons why I'm, I think you're such an interesting person in the space because you really do see the way that it's not, that tech is not just like building stuff. It's also about culture and policy and art and expression and how humans exist and fit with one another. Do you feel like that's an ethos that we kind of are losing, even though we are keeping it alive and around, but that like it becomes harder to see for all of those parts? Yes and no. What I will say is I think in an absolute number,

more people believe in technology with a soul than ever. The challenge is there's so many more billions of people online that it gets lost to the noise, right? But the communities of people who are trying to build good tech or who are building fun, weird art projects online, or who are trying to, you know, have some soul and what they're doing when they put stuff up on the Internet. It is more people all over the world doing that

than was there five years ago or 10 years ago or 25 years ago. But there's so much other noise, right, that it can get lost or it can get overshadowed. And so I think the challenge is for all of us to find each other and to amplify each other. and to lift each other up and to remind each other that it's there, you know, despite the rest of it, the cacophony of the rest of it.

But the actual number of people doing it, I think, is bigger than it's ever been. And, you know, that's a hard balance to strike because I think, you know, back in the day, that's all there was. And so it had an outsized presence. And, you know, I think there's so many analogies of like, like I said, being a music fan, I live on the Lower East Side, and, you know, there was a time when there was a music scene that was like, you know, these, you know, the indie punk scene and early hip hop and, and, you know, this sort of, you had to really, really love that music, those music

scenes to be there and, because there was zero money in it, right? Like, you know, there was nobody except the people in that club with you. And, and talking to people who are, like, we still had elders in the neighborhood who were there then and talking to those folks and they're just like you know you had to really believe and they still love the music right and so they're still listening

to the music and they still are in touch with some of those artists who were there for the music then and so they're not mad that hip hop is global they're not mad that everybody knows what happened with those punk artists right and you know they're

upset that like I was, you know, talking to one of the folks who's in Blondie, that was one of the bands that broke out from CBGB's, on the Lower East Side. They're not mad that everybody knows those songs, but they still have it there, right? And they still have it in that scene. And I think that's kind of it is, like, to hold true to, you know, this was a scene, right? The internet was a scene. And so as much as any music scene or art scene or anything else. And say, like, this still exists. There is still a community for people that want to make the internet, you know, with their hands, right, and be homegrown. And we have to nurture that and remind each other of that. But I am so heartened by seeing, you know, young creators or early

career creators or, you know, people of any age, but that are new to the sort of human internet coming in and saying, oh, I didn't know this was here because I was, you know, in the normal internet that everybody else is on. That's, that's, you know, louder and more vibrant or more visible to people. And so I think just reminding each other that there is still that that human part there, I think is really key. But I don't think it's ever gone away. You know, I don't think it's ever been silenced. And, you know, there's so many examples even of just like, you know, take something like Craigslist, right? Like, you can't kill it. You know, like cockroach website. Like, you can't kill it. And, you know, it's never changed. And it's still there. And, and, and, you know,

And they totally, totally invested into the human internet. But like, you know, next door, sure. You know, Facebook marketplace, sure. But you can't kill Craigslist. And I think that's something that sort of epitomizes that, which is like, this is like the equivalent of that for, you know, the people power of internet. Is there people just making these cool little weird things that are human and these little forums and these old, you know, these little art projects and all those things?

I think that's still there. And so I think that's part of what I want to, you know, really help people discover and remember is that it's all around. And then how do you help people find it when all they've known is the same five apps on their phone for all the time they've been online? More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel,

help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group.

The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection

Listen to humor me with Robert Smygel and friends On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me I need some jokes to make me seem funny Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora And as the number one podcaster,

I hearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast's point game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaad, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain.

In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world fighting for our lives.

All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. we're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. I don't think I need to tell anybody that things feel especially bleak right now. And if you're anything like me, maybe you have to fight the feeling that nothing good will ever happen again. But what if we're actually on the edge of something better? People are sick of algorithms or sick of AI slop, sick of tech leaders who clearly don't care. So what if all that frustration, everything we're fed up with, could spark something new? You've talked about or written about how it kind of feels like we're in 2004 again.

where like a cool sort of wave of exactly what you're talking about could be right around the corner, do you still feel that way? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, it's still fragile, right? I don't want to be, you know, a polyetta about it. Like, I don't think it's like all of a sudden everybody's going to get back to building a GeoCity's website again. But I think I'm very cautious. I don't believe in too much nostalgia.

Like, I don't think there's a good old days. I think the old days were bad in their own way. But I think how do you make something that you excitedly look forward to instead of like what are we fearfully running away from? And the things that were positive about that old internet in terms of it being wide open and there being a chance for people to build new things that are wide open, I think that is true again. And for people who may not have been, you know, maybe.

on the internet then or paying attention then or didn't understand what was wide open then. I think the way to articulate what the 2004 internet was about was there was no dominant search engine. There was no dominant photo sharing. There was no dominant video site. There was no dominant social network. There was no set pattern of all the tools and the apps we use every day. And if you think about your behaviors right now, you very likely swipe through the same three or four or five apps on your phone all day every day, and you probably have been for the last many years. And, you know, maybe you've added one app in the last couple years, you know.

And within those apps, there's a feed that is largely chosen for you by an algorithm that you cannot see. And that has been true for the majority of people in the internet since about 2004 or five. And that's when the majority of people, people in the world came online. And, you know, there are some of us who are as old as I am who can remember the internet before that. And like I said, it's not good old days. There were a lot of bad things about that internet. But one of the things that had a lot of potential there was people building other experiences and especially people who were not giant corporations

building some of those other experiences. And so I think that is the thing that is up for grabs right now because we have seen this extraordinary thing happen, which, one, I could not fathom, which is that, you know, the biggest search engine in the world making their search worse voluntarily. Well, that's, I didn't see that coming. Didn't have that on the bingo card. No, I mean, like a biggest own goal, like maybe in the history of the internet, like that's wild. And then, and then, you know, people already being fed up with, you know, Facebook and their feed there. Like, okay, sure.

And I think fatigue with feeds in general, I think people are kind of over it. You know, they know that they're tired of swiping and scrolling. Like they kind of burn out on that and feel a little bit like this is a lot of empty calories for my brain. I think people are very aware of that and ready for something else. And then even just like other behaviors, I think people are really ready to push back on, you know, the AI slop. I think on a number of grounds. One is they don't like seeing, you know, their elder relatives' brains cooked by obviously made-up stuff. I think they don't like seeing their favorite artists having their things taken without consent.

I think they have a lot of ambivalence about, you know, everything from the environmental impacts to the other things that are happening around AI. I think all that stuff has only raised the temperature about, you know, some of these misgivings. And then just being ready for something new. I mean, I think it's sort of saying, like, where is the good stuff? Where is the things that I like that I feel positive about all that stuff just sort of primes us for maybe there's going to be something new? And that, you know, being in this business a long time and being in the tech space a long time, you can just sort of sense it. You can feel it when there's going to be, you know, new players or new interests arising. And so all of that coming together along with, as a nerd,

I see so many new technical capabilities that we haven't seen in a generation. And, you know, I won't nerd out too much, but just the things that are available to programmers to build with feel like building blocks that we haven't seen since, you know, a generation ago. And that's exciting to me. Like as a coder, I'm playing with things.

You know, some of it is around the edges of the AI stuff, but just like, you know, technical things about how we can, like, share data and get people to be able to, you know, collaborate together. I'm like, oh, wow, there's so many creative tools that we can build there. And I see all those building blocks. And I just think, man, somebody is going to fit these together in a new way. And all of a sudden, like, the creative people of the world are going to be inventing new stuff.

So it sounds like when you think of the future of tech, you're actually quite optimistic and hopeful. I am. I am. I can't not be. One is I have to be just from my mental well-being. Like, I, you know, you can't, I can't help. But also, I think of, you know, as America, I think of the rest of the world, especially global South, and they are really ready to be free from the American-centric Internet. It's very obvious, very obvious for all the, you know, policy reasons and all the obvious reasons.

And that's what the Internet wants to be. It was always designed to be decentralized. And so there's going to be innovation there. And then I think of the creatives of the world, and there's something. saying, well, if these platforms are like I said, taking my stuff without consent for AI or they're, you know, not letting me win through the algorithm and people can't discover my content or all the other things, they're going to say, well, maybe I should have my own site or I should have my own place for my content. So the creatives of the world are going that way. That's another signal.

And, you know, and on and on. There's all these different things that are sort of pushing towards people having more agency and autonomy and control. That's just a signal. You know what I mean? I don't need to know where it's headed to know that it's going somewhere. And I just love that energy. I just love seeing that happen. And for me, I'm like, I'm like a middle-aged dad. I'm washed. Like, I'm not supposed to be the one that knows.

I just like, I just need to follow. Like, I'm excited to see it. I should be, you know, I should be the one that's just rooting for it and helping it happen. I like being the elder statesman of it now. Like I had the chance to be, you know, at the forefront of it a generation ago, I'm excited to be the one who's wild by what the next generation comes up with. Okay, well, that brings me to my last question, which is sort of a wildcard. Speaking of creative, sort of leading the way, you and I are both big Prince super fans. I have to ask, like, what is it about Prince that gets you, that, like, draws you in?

Oh, there's so many things. I mean, that's, you know, that's a big question. I think there's a couple parts. You know, I think he touches on so many of the themes that we've talked about. I think one is he comes from a scene, a community, right? The Twin Cities, Minneapolis, you know, especially, you know, the black music community in the Twin Cities is so specific of a place where, you know, they were grounded in history, right? So they have, you know, this blues music scene and the jazz music scene that his parents were part of

and that they, you know, they all sort of supported each other in. I think that part is what sort of informs his work. And I think that's sort of, it's like so tied to place. And obviously, like, you know, you have that, you know, his dad was, you know, part of the great migration comes from that blues tradition in Louisiana. I think that part, you see suffuse through his music. I think that is, well, I mean, it's the greatest American music tradition, right? So, like, that's this long history.

and then you take what he does with it and like his peer cohort, right? So he's born in summer 58. So is Michael Jackson, right? So is Madonna. Like this is this like incredible through line. And then he is a technologist through and through, right? The reason he's able to record his own records

is he learns to run an automated console when he's a teenager, which is cutting edge technology at that time. He's the first to have the Lynn LM1 drum machine, which is the first to have a digital, sample of drums, which is his signature sound, the birth of the Minneapolis sound is a story of technology. He tweaks that drum machine beyond its parameters of what is supposed to do, the reason that when you hear something like 1999 or when Doves Cry has a unique sound that nobody had heard

on the radio before is he's tuning a drum machine past what it's supposed to be able to do because he is literally programming a computer to go beyond its limits. And that is his innovation as a technology That's like he had, you know, the new iPhone before it dropped. That's literally what he's doing. And then on and on into the internet era, right, where he, pre-internet, right, pre-web, he's got a CD-ROM when that was cutting edge to deliver an interactive experience right around the time that he starts to fight for control of his master recordings. And then, you know, in the Twin Cities, the first internet service provider, ISP for

dial-up access called Goodstream, was crucial. created by engineers who worked at Paisley Park at his studio. So internet access in the Twin Cities comes through his studio, right, by people who work for prints. And, you know, it's just like the beating heart of all innovations who goes through there. And then, you know, he pioneers having everything that we look at now, whether it's a Patreon or a Kickstarter, like he has a membership fan club.

He has his own website. In fact, his first website in 1995 is so early. that he had to have an instruction page explaining how to put a credit card into the field for buying a CD from it because he was selling CDs on his website before Amazon was. Wow. That's how early he was. The next year he does a crowdfunding for CDs on his website and that is, I want to say, 11 years before Kickstarter existed. Wow. Long time, long time before.

And on and on and on, right? He does a membership club in 2001, 2002. That's like a Patreon now, right, where the fans get first access to tickets. We got to go to his pre-shows and his sound checks for his concerts because we were members of the fan clubs. I got to sit a row away from him in the audience

when he was playing at Lincoln Center. It's just unbelievable, like the amount of access And that was because he was on there. He was in the AOL chat rooms with us in the early 90s. And so that part, that's all separate from, you know, unbelievable guitarist, you know, rock and roll hall of fame, writing top 10 hits for, you know, a dozen other artists. That's all separate from 40 albums. That's all separate from, you know, just unbelievable performer.

That's all separate from, you know, 100 music videos. That's all separate from, you know, 100 music videos. That's all separate from a thousand recorded songs that he released. That's all separate from another 2,000 songs in the vault. You know, like it's just the technological innovation alone is at a level I don't think people could understand or fathom just as a technology pioneer. And, you know, when he got his Webby Award, his Lifetime Achievement Award in 2006, you know, he said everything you think. is true. And, you know, I think that, and he wrote it on the wall of his bedroom at Paisley Park, and I think he sort of was talking about how you can imagine a world, you know, that

people can't yet conceive of. And that was the same speech I gave when I got my Webby, Lifetime Achievement Award as a tribute to him. Full circle moment. That's so cool. I have to say, Like, as much as I appreciate your work in tech, talking about the ways that Prince is a tech innovator is one of my favorite things about what you do. And, yeah, I mean, it's like, why I love, he always got to shit early somehow. Like, he, like, just, like, saw stuff before anybody else did.

He knew how the system worked. Yes. He knew how it worked, and he could see it. He could see it. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoady.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy.

Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. And hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game. the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry. You just understood.

That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come into it. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky. his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA.

Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast Deeply Well with Debbie Brown. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more.

Listen to Deeply Well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you give. It's your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.