There Are No Girls on the Internet - The Jane Collective: How college students started an underground abortion network

Episode Date: July 1, 2022

In the wake of the devastating SCOTUS decision overturning Roe v Wade, I wanted to revisit my 2018 conversation with Heather Booth who organized an underground abortion network called The Jane Collective. What a Story of 1970s Abortion Activism Can Teach Us Today: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/06/the-janes-hbo-max-review-abortion-roe/661446/ Follow Heather Booth: https://twitter.com/hboothgo Learn more about her work: https://www.democracypartners.com/partners/heather-booth-0 Donate to abortion funds: AbortionFunds.org  Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Say hello at [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than adds supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed.

You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's a Shanti Plummer from Fudderound and Find out. This week, Azee Fud and I sat down with Step and Curry. Step talks pressure, confidence, and what it really? takes to stay great. There's different categories, I guess, on like, conditioning, shooting drills where you try to simulate kind of games. Look at her face. We have a love-hate relationship with those,

because you know you're getting something out of it. You don't look forward to those days. Listen to Futter Around and find out on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And right now, people, I think, especially need to learn this lesson. That even when time

seemed the most difficult progress, if we organize. And if we organize, we can change the world, and we need to change the world. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. In the wake of the devastating Supreme Court decision

overturning Roe versus Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion in the United States, I have been thinking a lot about the Jane Collective and Heather Booth. Today, Heather Booth is 76 years young, and when she was a young student in Chicago, she started the Jane Collective, an underground network that provided some 11,000 abortions from 1969 to 1973 at a time when abortion was illegal

and most of the United States. I spoke to Heather back in 2018 when I was the host of the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You. And we listening to her story this week, I was reminded that when she was young, she was organizing to make changes that must have seemed super far-fetched until they weren't.

It's a story. of hope and promise. And I feel like we could all use a little of that right now. And just FYI, I was a much greener interviewer and podcast host back in 2018. So, you know, keep that in mind as you're listening. Hey, this is Bridget. And you're listening to Stuff Mom Never Told You. And today, we're continuing our series all about abortion, bringing you stories about abortion that you might not know about. And today's story is the Jane Collective. Now, I want you to imagine. It's 1970. You're pregnant, and you need not to be.

But Roe v. Wade is a few years away, and abortion is still illegal. Now, before this landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision, terminating a pregnancy meant taking a gamble on a back-alley abortion provider. Maybe they'd be competent. Maybe they wouldn't be. But when you're pregnant and desperate, you don't really have a lot of options. For women living in the 60s and 70s, this was a reality. And on Chicago's South Side, women began organizing an underground network to do something about it. In 1965, Heather Booth was a 19-year-old college student at the University of Chicago.

Her friend's sister was pregnant and needed an abortion. Now, Booth had been active in the civil rights movement and connected her friend's sister to a doctor willing to perform an illegal abortion. After that, she started getting more and more calls from women, housewives, students, and the siblings of police officers. That's when Booth knew she needed to start a network. Known officially as the Abortion Counseling Service of Women's Liberation, Heather Booth started an undergris an underground network to connect women to abortions, using the code name Jane, as it was still a crime. I remember this ad that said, pregnant, need help, call Jane. So I called Jane.

Jane ultimately served over 10,000 women before Roe v. Wade made abortion legal in 1973. In the beginning, the network connected pregnant women with doctors. But eventually, they realized that many of the people providing abortions weren't doctors at all. That's when the women in Jane started performing abortions themselves. The women were not doctors, but according to the Chicago Tribune, their skills were attested to by a doctor who risked his license

by doing post-operative checkups on clients. At this point, the Jane Collective was providing abortions for as many as 60 women a week. Jane's facilities were raided by the police. During the raid, police asked all the women to identify the doctor who was performing the abortions, obviously expecting to find a man, but there was no man.

The group was arrested, and the media called them the Jane 7. after being indicted by a grand jury, their case was only dismissed thanks to the Supreme Court's legalization of abortion in 1973. After this quick break, we'll hear from Heather Booth about how Jane got started. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel helped an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-8-4-I-Hart.

Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a parameda-mapostal chin here you do. So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast. How hard can it be with Deanna Maria Riore. where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS.

All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45, how can it be getting naked at 50 with the new guy. That one's kind of hard, you know? Well, that's lighting.

They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, How Hard Can It Be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, fam, Ms. Isaiah Thomas? And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about Define the R. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us a lot. everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Today I am so, so humbled and thrilled to be joined by the legendary Heather Booth. Heather, thank you so much for being here today. Oh, my goodness. Well, you are. You're a legend.

Well, I'm so glad to be talking with the amazing Bridget Todd and what a service you're doing for the public, providing this information out about some of the stories that are not as well known. Exactly. That's really what we want to do with this series. Everybody feels like they know a lot about abortion and about, you know, reproductive health, but there are so many stories about abortion in choice that people might not know. You know, the Jane Network was such a critical thing for these women who were living, you know, while before Roe v. Wade was enacted, and, you know, people don't even really know about it. Glad to describe how it came about, and I appreciate your spreading the word to let people know that

if we organize, we can change the world, the world, and we need to change the world. And the story of organizing the Jane Network is one important example of that. So let's talk about Jane. So when you started Jane, you were just a 19-year-old student at the University of Chicago. So what was your life like before you started Jane? A little bit about my life and also a little bit about what women's lives were like in general. For me, I was brought up in a family, very loving. and believes that people should follow the golden rule.

We should treat each other as we wanted to be treated. And I carried that with me. I became active in a civil rights movement. In 1964, I went to Mississippi with a Freedom Summer Project, and some of you may have heard about it because that was a time when the civil rights movement was recruiting northern students to come down to Mississippi, because in Mississippi, black lives did not matter in 1964.

They thought that the attention of northern students might bring additional visibility and potential power on what was going on in Mississippi. And during that summer, the three young men, Andrew, the hands of the clan. What people may not know is that while they were looking for the bodies of the three men, they found bodies of other black men whose hands had been back. or feet chopped off. And those murders weren't even investigated once the bodies were found until years later. But because people organized, there was a voting rights act within a year.

And Mississippi now is more African-American elected officials than any other state in the country. I mentioned that because it was formative for some of the ideas that led to Jane, which is that you have to stand up to unjust authority, can make change, and that sometimes there are even our risks. We can really build a better world. I returned back to my campus, and a friend of mine had been raped at nice point in her bed in off-campus housing. We, to student health, to get a gynecological exam for her,

but was told that student health didn't cover gynecological exam, and she was given a lecture on her promiscuity. Now, because we sat with her, they called it a sit-in, But over time, because people protested and organized now, student health would cover gynecological exams and people would be given careful compturing counseling. And there also is support and attention about the crisis of rape on campus. Those changes happen because people organized. We still have much further to go. But it's under attack.

Progress when we organize. And those were some of the lessons that I learned also from the civil rights movement. On the campus, to give a sense, though, of how women were treated broadly, called the Women's Radical Action Program, or RAP, WRAC, studies about courted women to promote women's positions on campus. It probably was the first campus women's organization of the new and emerging women's movement in 1965, I found that professors four times as much attention to men's students as to women's students. If we can respond, how often would a teacher actually engage with us?

Because of that and other things, we found ways to support women on campus. Founding was discrimination against women faculty members. We were kept as adjunct professors and not allowed on a tenure track. And there were other issues that people need to understand the emergence of Jane. within the context of lessons from an emerging movement in civil rights, context of what's going on in the society where on the one hand public life, and yet were not treated equally. So there was this emerging women's movement in the context that many of us shared

believing that this should be a country that treated all people equally, gave people equal support. I love that. So really, one of the big things, takeaways from what you've done with Jane is that organizing and people power can really change culture and change laws and change lives that, you know, oftentimes we feel, at least I feel overwhelmed that, oh, just little old me, what can I do to change this? This seems so bad or up against so many fights. But actually, if you're, if you really work hard and organize,

you can change things. Absolutely. Absolutely. To bring us up to Jane to explain how my involvement with that and how that developed. Against this backdrop, a friend of mine told me her sister was pregnant and was nearly suicidal because she wasn't ready to have a baby. And she wanted an abortion. I had never thought about the issue before that I recall, and I've never had to face the issue myself. But I said I'd try to do what I could do to help, again, sort of as part of the golden rule, trying to do one to others. I went to the network of doctors from the Medical Committee for Human Rights, which was the Civil Rights Medical Arm.

And I found a doctor, Dr. TRM Howard, who had a clinic on 63rd Street in Chicago, a friendship clinic. I know it's history at the time, but he had been a dynamic civil rights leader in Mississippi. and came to Chicago when his name appeared on a clan death list. I called him up. He agreed to do the procedure. Actually, I didn't really think much more about it. But word must have spread because a short time later,

I realized they were reeling an organizer. I decided to create a system. Over time, 1,000 abortions between 1965 and 1973, when Roe became the law of the land. of Jane lives of the women who came through, who are looking for a way to decide when or whether they could have a child. The women who were in Jane provided a basic confidence, I hope now, to say, we can make change if we organize.

So let's say that I'm a woman who calls Jane. Can you walk me through the logistics once I call what happened? Well, first there were two or three eras of Jane, eras. When I first started it, it was a very small growing and growing. When it started, someone would call up and ask for Jane. And before they said they were asking for Jane, I knew immediately there was a sort of hesitant pause on the phone, and I just knew immediately what they were probably calling about.

They were pregnant with you, then try and arrange a time where they could come in and have a longer conversation and could talk with them, and find out long they were, had been pregnant, what their medical history was. And then we'd just go through the detail. They'd want to know how long does it take, would there be pain, their side effects, how to take care of yourself. If there are any obligations, what they need to do, who they call, how much it cost. Initially, Jane cost $500.

dollars. So we negotiated down the price as the number of people came through. One, so we got it down to $250, three for the price of one. We sometimes arrangement, if someone didn't have, someone should be with them as they left after the procedure. To me in a lot of detail, what was involved. Dr. Howard died. I found another person to provide the procedures. His name was Mike. had the same process, though he had a suburban, for increasing so much of the numbers of people coming through to have my first child. It's very busy and many other things, getting a graduate degree, social change issues,

and I realized I couldn't handle it all just my sighted. I needed to recruit other people to be involved with this. And I go to meetings, and at the end of the meeting would say if anyone wants to be involved in. There's a number of people. We did a training and made sure that everyone understood the process and would provide the high quality of care that we wanted to see for all the women who came through. I turned over the effort to another group of women.

Since then, the numbers increased. One person doing the procedures wasn't going to be enough. Also turned out that the women then were helping might do the procedures that he He actually wasn't a licensed physician. And they thought, well, if he could do it, so could they. Though this was starting to learn how to do the procedures, it was actually probably safer than this medical procedure being done in a hospital or clinic or other settings.

Partly because it was illegal, one wanted it to be as safe as possible so that no one would be harmed. No one would be. It wouldn't be a fact. It also was a women's culture. He cared about women. And so the priority wasn't the profit making. It was the care for women.

Also, the only thing that there was a lot of attention on it. It's not like you were getting lost in the shuffle of, oh, am I doing an appendectomy or am I? He became the law of the land. There was a study done by a University of Illinois program called it within Chicago. And they did an analysis. It was in the results in a clinic setting. Wow. And I think for the reasons that I just mentioned.

At that point, the women started to take on doing procedures themselves. Versive that, a larger group that was recruited to actually be the service, which is what we called it, what they called it Jane. Women came in, there was a front or one apartment, someone's apartment, that was designed in a very cozy, homey, supportive, way, sometimes there were kids there, and a number of women who would be waiting for their own procedure would gather there in a supportive environment, and then they would be taken to the apartment where the procedures would be done, and then they were, while they were recovering from the procedure, and then would be sent off with full information at what to do if they're are any issues, as there often are with any medical proceedings, and then told numbers to call,

and people could be in touch with them afterward to make sure that everything worked out okay. So that was a broad process. There's a book called Jane. There's also a movie about it, and actually I'm now told there's at least two Hollywood made movies that are being made about Jane, as well as a new documentary. and there are more details of it about Jane. So Heather, you're a part of this

really robust tradition of Jewish activism. I actually read some place that at one point you wanted to be a rabbi, but that you heard that women couldn't be rabbis. Do you feel like your background as, you know, part of the robust legacy of Jewish activism and social change work, did that also impact your work with Jane?

It did. It was part of my moral upbringing. I believed justice justice I shall pursue, saying justice twice because it's that important, really believing prophets should guide us in some ways that it's the people who should rise and not just those in wealth and power. There also was a history of struggle. Passover story, Passover's coming and even going 40 years in the desert to us. The promise is so precious, and I believe that that was embracing. So that was part of the moral upbringing that I had and had tried to carry that on into the organizing work I've done. And since that time, to carry it on in so many ways, I started a training center for organizers called Midwest Academy.

People encourage your listeners to pursue Midwest Academy because it's a place to learn to, skills of organizing. Their website is WWW Midwest Academy stop running stations for advising them. I was strategic advisor for the immigration reform campaign with the Alliance

for Citizenship. I ran the campaign for financial reform that won the Dodd-Frank bill. I was a coordinator around the marriage equality campaign. I just was the field director around the campaign to stop the

There's and billionaires, security, Medicare and Medicaid, and education and other essential human services. So the struggle continues. And right now, people to learn this lesson. The most different progress if we organize. And if we organize, we can change the world and we need to change. I could not have put it better myself. These fights are still fights that need to be fought. And we can get complacent and we can get comfortable.

but as you said, we need to be organizing. And I'm so glad that you're in the fight doing this work with us because we need you, Heather. And I'm so glad that we have you. Well, and I'm so glad that we have you to spread the words, spread the message. I'm so glad we have those who are listening in. I hope they'll take, they probably have been taking action. We need to continue taking action and unify and give people confidence

that we can organize and when we organize, even in times that seem the most difficult, we can change the world. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group? perform. We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com.

That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast's point game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level they would.

we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have

Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some

playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a perimenapausal chin here you do. So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast. How Hard Can It Be with the Adamania Reba, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that?

I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How high can it be? I'm getting naked at 50 with the new guy. That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting.

They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Well, Spinty listeners, now I know abortion can seem like an issue that we no longer have to fight for like we did in the 70s. Okay, hi, it's 22, Bridget, and wow, how wrong I was. So right here in the original episode, I started going on and on about how even though Roe was the law of the land, we still needed to be vigilant because of state-based attacks on abortion. And now, here we are in 2022, and as you know, Roe versus Wade has been. overturned. And even though it is truly devastating, abortion advocates have been preparing for this moment for a very long time. There are organized networks of abortion funds and bail funds and providers who are ready to assist folks looking for abortions. We're not in a place where scrappy

college kids need to invent underground collectives out of whole cloth like Heather did with the Jane collective back in the 70s. There are people who care and who want to help who are prepared for this moment. Go to abortion funds.org and support them. And, you know, in this moment, which I know seems so dark and so tough, remember, we are the majority. There are more of us than there are of them. And we won't back down. If you're looking for ways to support the show,

check out our merch store at tangooty.com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. Edited by Joey Pat.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHartRadio, check out the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game. the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season, and I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was probably. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come until he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's a Shanti Plummer from Fud around and Find out. This week, Azee Fud and I sat down with step and curry. Step talks pressure, confidence, and what it really takes to stay great. There's different categories, I guess, so on like conditioning, shooting drills where you try to simulate kind of games. Look at her face. We have a love-hate relationship with those because you know you're getting something out of it. You don't look forward to those days. Listen to Futter Around and Find out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.

I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move, and he went out the front door, and he jumped in a car and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him. Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.