There Are No Girls on the Internet - The legacy of Nichelle Nichols and Star Trek - Best of TANGOTI

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

To honor the incredible legacy of Nichelle Nichols, we are revisiting our conversation with historian and Star Trek superfan Blair Imani. Live long and prosper.   Check our Blair’s cosplay:  https://www.tangoti.com/episode-9   Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Say hello at [e-mail]  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out.

There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase out of my skin and I just like really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. There are black people in the future, and I'm sad to say that last week, we lost somebody who helped us all visualize it. Michelle Nichols died of age 89,

and she is and always will be an icon. She lovingly portrayed Lieutenant Uhura on Star Trek. Now, there is so much to love about her. She was smart, capable, gorgeous, stylish. She rocked a Bluetooth on Star Trek even before that was really a thing. She had it all. But Nichelle did a lot off-screen as well. In the 70s, Nichelle toured around the country visiting different colleges and professional organizations

to encourage women and people of color scientists, engineers, and mathematicians to apply to become astronauts. And a lot of them actually did. According to the New York Times, Charles Bolden, a former Marine Corps Major General, who flew on four space shuttle missions and became NASA's administrator for eight years, credited Nassau's Nichols, credited Nichols for eight years, credited Nichols, credited Nichols, visiting his college with giving him the idea to apply in the first place. And Mae Jemison, the first black woman astronaut, has often publicly cited Nishel Nichols as her inspiration. To honor the out-of-this-world woman that allowed so many of us nerds to see ourselves in different timelines and universes, we're revisiting our efforts. We're revisiting our episode about Star Trek with Star Trek superfan Blair Amani.

When you think of the future, what does it look like? In 1966, Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry imagined a future where the multiracial crew of the USS Enterprise worked together to explore the wonders of space. And while they were at it, they also explored race, disability, and gender. Star Trek has a long been a vessel for people to imagine themselves in the future. When Nichols, who played Ahorah, wanted to quit the show to pursue a career on Broadway, it was Martin Luther King, a Treki himself, who convinced her to stay on so the world could see a black woman as commanding and capable.

Here's Nichols, describing the historic encounter. And I'm looking at Dr. Martin Luther King. He said you can't. And I couldn't. And I've never regretted it. I didn't leave. I couldn't leave the rest is history. Is it any surprise that MLK was a Star Trek fan?

In order to be an activist, you have to be able to imagine a future that's better than the current reality. And believe in the promise that the future includes people like you. Blair Imani is an activist, historian, and author. Like MLK before her, she's a huge trekkey, and the show helped her imagine the future where people like her aren't just included. but where they can also live long and prosper. Last year, Blair went to Comic Con in California.

She cosplayed as Jordy Laforge, the Enterprise's chief engineer played by Lavaverton. The character was a nod to George Laforge, a quadriplegic fan of the show. Jordy is blind, and a device called a visor gives them the ability to see. And if you're anything like me, you spent your childhood mimicking the device with a headband on your face.

Blair wanted to dress as Jordi, but also at our own spin to it. I have always believed that Jordy LaForge of Star Trek is a Muslim because he's born, I think, on February 16th, 2335, not I think, I know, in Mogadishu, Somalia, which is a Muslim majority country. And in 300 years, it'll probably still be a Muslim majority country. So odds are that Jordi LaForge is a black Muslim. So I thought, oh, how fun and wholesome it will be for me to bring my religiosity and myself to this space.

I did not anticipate it would go super viral. I did not anticipate pissing off Islamophobes. I mean, I kind of always anticipate that, but not in the Star Trek fandom. So it kind of turned into like some fun thing I could do. And of course, like most things, it became a political statement. You can find a link to Blair's outfit in the show notes. And I definitely suggest checking it out. Her feminized, Islamized take on Jority LaForge with a hijab went viral.

I had this beautiful robe from El-Hawks. design, which is based in Los Angeles, created by Katie L. Hopper. So, woman-owned business, love that. I had the Jordy LaForge visorge, which is his seeing device because Jordy LaForge is not cited. He's blind, but he uses this vision device, visor device, in order to be able to see. So I had that. And then I put a nice black hijab on top of it. Blair said only three people asked her about cosplaying as a version of Jordy who presents as a woman.

But it was the addition of the hijab that really riled people up. some of the responses were really pedantic. Like one Twitter user who said a hijab would violate the Starfleet's dress code. So, Blair, what was the reaction like online? You would have thought that I had like, I don't know, lit a holy book on fire the way some people were reacting. So you have the one group of folks who, well, actually, I wouldn't have even photographed it if it wasn't for my friend, Kalin Borowski, who, like, he's my photographer, like, primarily. And he was like, you need to get photographs of this. And I was like, okay, fine, let's do it before I go to Comic-Con.

And I just posted it for Juma, which is, you know, Friday, Friday Prayer Day. And I was like, you know, Juba Mubarak to all the Muslims across the galaxy. And the pictures came out super iconic. And so I posted them. And it was wild because cast of the Star Trek franchise, like Will Wheaton and, you know, LeVar Burton himself and Michael Dorn and Brent Spinner, saw the post and started sharing it themselves, which was like super-deeper validating. I was like on top of the world.

And then of course the fans started to see it. And then of course Star Trek.com itself started to see it. And so there was like this outpouring of like, what is this? The most exciting and kind of like, I guess, surprising aspect was that people thought I was a new character on the show Picard. And I still get emails from people who are like, when is your episode coming out? I'm so excited. So some people really liked it and some people really hated it. But Blair couldn't understand why her using Star Trek to affirm that the future includes black Muslims like her was so shocking.

Particularly given that Star Trek was meant to show a vision of the future that includes everybody. It was really polarizing. On the one hand, as far as like social media went, it was like folks who were really excited or thought that I was a new character. Then you had folks saying things like, Gene Roddenberry didn't intend for Muslims to be in space. Muslims aren't in Star Trek. And I'm like, first of all, Star Trek is fictional. Second of all, yeah, he did because, you know, Gene Roddenberry, he believed in infinite diversity and infinite combinations. And Star Trek was a beloved show of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who actually encouraged, you know, O'Hura, you know, the woman who plays O'Hura to, like continue on the show.

And Michelle Nichols. And so, like, not only is Gene Roddenberry not this, like, you know, like anti-diversity, anti-PC dude, he was. the reason there was the first interracial kiss on television between Captain Kirk and Lieutenant Uhura. And so that's huge, you know? So when people are saying there's no Muslims in space, I'm like, actually, I have evidence to back it up. But also, this isn't even a real universe. If you hate Muslims so much, maybe you should just say that instead of trying to use either, you know, your own fandom or something else to hide behind that. There's a rich tradition of activists finding inspiration and being able to see themselves

in fictional worlds. It's one of the very very important. reasons why MLK wanted Nichols to keep showing that kind of representation. Civil rights icon John Lewis was one of my heroes. And my favorite fact about him is that during Comic-Con, he cosplayed as his own younger self, crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma during the Civil Rights Movement. At Comic-Con 2016, he wore the same coat and carried the same backpack that contained the same things he brought with him back on that fateful day in 1965, an apple, a toothbrush, and a comic book, all the things you need to survive a night in jail. At the convention, dressed as his own younger self,

Lewis led kids on a little march around the convention to help them visualize that anyone could be a hero, even them. He was there to promote his own comic book, a graphic novel retelling of the March on Selma called March. Here is the late John Lewis at Comic Con 26. Here is the late John Lewis at Comic-Con 2016, advocating for a new generation to create good trouble. To march, book one, but also book two. And when book three come out would inspire another generation of young people and people not so young to stand up, to speak up and see back and get in good trouble.

It might sound strange for a civil rights icon to be talking about comics at a convention, But John Lewis says that he was first inspired to join the civil rights movement from reading a comic book about MLK called Dr. King, Martin Luther King and the Montgomery story. I think it really shows that civil rights leaders and activists are real people with real interests. They're not just sort of like someone that you read about in February for Black History Month or like a picture in a book. They're real multifaceted people. And I do think there's this connection to science fiction. and other nerdy interests and civil rights and activism

because you have to be able to sort of imagine and dream that different worlds are possible to be an activist and to fight for the kind of change that you fight for. I keep making the connections between religion and, you know, sci-fi because it is the idea of a different world. Like, you know, Dr. King spoke about the mountaintop, but we can also look at that as, you know, imagining Afro-Futurism and imagining ourselves in a different realm.

And this whole idea that we have to get beyond the limit, limitations of our own imagination. And sometimes for, you know, religious folks such as myself, it means trusting that, you know, Allah or God or Yahweh has the ultimate plan. And that is beyond our own understanding because we have a finite, you know, ability to understand in our current system. Or it could be to use, you know, graphics and art and illustration and comics and books and video and film in podcast to, you know, imagine what that looks like and transport us to a different place as a reprieve from the difficulties of the world. But it's also crucial to understand that, you know, these are tools used to transport us, but they're still being created

by people. And because of that, there's going to be limitations. I mean, the example I keep giving is that, you know, in Star Trek, they have people giving painful, you know, traditional birth, you know, via the birth canal. And I'm like, okay, well, if you can, like, zap somebody healthy with, like, a laser gun, then why can't you just like teleport the baby out of the womb? You know, like there's the limitations, you know, or the idea that we haven't surpassed this idea of, you know, pain during childbirth, et cetera, or just, you know, is there an incubation pod? Like, you know, because Star Trek, the next generation was created at a specific time in history, even the things that they make as a futuristic interpretation of a current technology, it's going to be based on that current technology.

But the other cool thing is that so many technologies are then based on, you know, the imaginings of previous sci-fi writers, even like Jules Byrne, you know. People, as they imagine, are also limited by the imaginings of each other. And so with John Lewis, I was actually able to meet him while he was on tour during the first March book created by himself and Andrew Aden and Nate Powell. And I spoke to him about why he decided to do this format, and it was because he wanted to reach as many people as possible. And so Andrew Aidan and John Lewis, they both love comic books. And that comic book that you refer to is called Dr. King, Martin Luther King in the Montgomery story. And it's beautiful because it shows how much of a Superman Dr. King was made to be. Not only is an educational tool, but these are representations.

materials of things that are happening in the present moment. I think today we get caught up in conversations about this activism is performative. You know, if you have an outfit to show up to a protest, you're being a shallow activist, completely ignoring the fact that like the Black Panther Party didn't just wake up with perfectly symmetrical afros, excellently tailored slacks and turtlenecks and berets. They didn't just roll out of bed like that. It was all intentional. And performance and art and illustration and the conveyance of information requires intentionality and that's going to deal with aesthetics. So it's not to say we have to choose one. It's not to say one should overcome the other, but that we can have both of these things in tandem and that sometimes we limit ourselves,

we being kind of like the broader community or, you know, people who, just, you know, we as a people often limit ourselves in what tools we grab onto. Because if you've only seen tweets or TikToks that cover surface level, you know, material. If the only way you've come into contact with sci-fi has been at this surface-level way, then you're probably not going to understand the fact that, you know, during the time of a crack epidemic, the Star Trek universe decided to tackle addiction. You might not understand that, you know, TikTok is being used to educate young people and people across literacy and language. And so it's all about how we use the tools. And that's why I find, you know, comics and film and TV so exciting because, yeah, it's a different world.

Yeah, it's not real life, but it can totally be a proxy for our real life and it can be a reprieve from our world. But then it's also very important to make sure that we check our own biases when creating that work. Fiction, comic books, cartoons, TV shows. All of them can be tools to help us better understand ourselves and the world around us. Blair is also an author. her books, modern herstery and making our way home, use colorful illustrations to help introduce audiences to the concept that marginalized people of the past

weren't just two-dimensional historical figures. They were complex. And the cover of both of her books kind of look like comics. Fun fact, full circle story is the reason why I'm an author is because of Levar Burton. So one, LeVar Burton made me an enthusiastic reader via Reading Rainbow.

And two, I thanked him for that. He started following me. me. And when I was trying to get a publisher for the book, he shouted me out and literally said, somebody published this woman's book and like, oh, to two million people who are probably in literacy to some extent. And that paved the way for me not only getting my first book deal, but my second one with the same publishing house. So LeVar Burton's amazing. And so I, you know, couldn't relish the fact that, you know, imagery and things like TV and film shaped my own understanding as a reader and as, you know, an informed person. Like, you might remember Jimmy Neutron.

Like, they actually snuck in a lot of very important scientific and, you know, engineering information into that show. Like, even SpongeBob talks about things that, like, make sense in real life. And so, and the fact that Steve Hillenberg, who created SpongeBob, was a marine biologist and wanted to convey that education to young people through his work. So I was definitely informed by that. And I think growing up in like the golden era of animation really helped me to kind of connect those two things. But I also like the idea of somebody picking up my book because it looks like a good coffee table book. It looks like a light read. And I do make my books accessible at a fifth grade level because most folks read at a fifth grade level.

And most magazines are written at a fifth grade level. But I like the idea of some sweet grandma who might have, you know, conservative politics picking up the book because it looks friendly on the front cover, giving it to her, you know, offspring. and surprise, they're getting radicalized. They're getting educated about things that are complex and intricate in a way that is family-friendly and age-appropriate, but things that might not be covered until they get to college because of the limitations of the educational system. So especially with my second book, Making Our Way Home, even though there's a gay couple on the front cover in the form of my Uncle Lester and a partner we imagined for him, I still get emails

from people saying, I didn't know this book was going to be queer affirming. Of course, they don't say it like that. But I'm like, I didn't hide anything. But because it's presented in a certain way, it doesn't detract from people who are already seeking that material. But it also invites people in who might not have otherwise engaged with something like the Great Migration or Black History that covers everything from the period of enslavement to the creation of hip hop. So I try to use imagery to sneak my way in. And it's pretty effective. So we know there are black folks, queer folks, and Muslim folks in the future.

Did Star Trek help you be able to visualize that kind of world? Yeah, and it's funny, like, so much. You know, Star Trek has really helped me envision what the future looks like. So often when we look at sci-fi, it's, you know, aliens from a different universe who have a completely different molecular structure, but for some reason they have a British accent, like WTF, you know, like white supremacy goes hard, I guess even in sci-fi. And so I'm definitely not like under any delusions about why, you know, certain biases exist. It's because it's the limitations of our own imagination as people.

But it's not only helped me understand diversity, it's helped me understand how I discuss religion at large. As a historian, and so often that means looking back in time, it's a really exciting thing to also look at sci-fi as a step towards the future. Star Trek has been fundamental in the identity formation of myself as a black woman and as a Muslim woman. And it's helped me speak about religion just to see how something as secular and something as, you know, low stakes, I guess, as Star Trek can be imbued with the same type of passion and vitriol, but also beauty that comes with religious debates. And I was actually at the School of Divinity at Princeton giving a talk and I was talking about canon. And, you know, today we talk about canon, like your fan canon, your head canon, things that you know to be true, but maybe aren't canonical to. the actual franchise, you know, say things like maybe you believe all Pikachu's are related in Pokemon, but you don't actually have a basis for things like that.

And so I was talking about how in my head canon for Star Trek, Jordi LaForge is a black Muslim. And of course, that's influenced by my own, you know, skin in the game. I would also love there to be a black Muslim in my favorite show and my favorite character to be one. So of course I'm going to imbue that, but there's also a basis in the fact that he's born in Mogadishu Somalia, which is canonical to the text. And I was talking about this in the context of religion and how, you know, we can all read the same religious scripture

and come to completely different theological interpretations. And people tend to grasp that. But I was talking about how, of course, that happens. Like, I think some people get confused. Like, how can we all read the same story of Genesis? And, you know, well, we're not even reading the same story. We're reading different interpretations, different translations, centuries-old differences.

We're reading people imbueing their own biases while they translate all these different things. And it was so great because I was talking to this group at this very, you know, like fancy institution at Princeton, talking about how Star Trek is a case study into why there's so much religious turmoil. Because if something is, like I said, low stakes to Star Trek can start a virtual flame war over what religion is or is not in Star Trek. Then of course something as high stakes as our eternal souls is going to, you know, spark a bunch of debate. And I tell people this and I think it helps them understand everything from why, you know, I feel comfortable being a queer Muslim and owning that and owning God's love to things like why fandoms can be so fraught and disconnected and, you know, just chaotic. But the really cool thing to see is how people will use the scripture or in this case the fandom, or the original source material from the creator,

in this case, Gene Roddenberry, and not God, well, you know, to use that to protect and preserve other people. Because it was so cool seeing like, you know, Trekkies and Trekkers, which are also Trekkies, but they use their own terminology, which we respect, kind of defending me, basing this in like not only Star Trek the next generation, but Deep Space Nine, the movies, the animated series,

all showing a basis for religion in Star Trek from episodes in the original series where there's a Christmas tree to episodes in Deep Space Nine where they totally get into religion to episodes in the next generation itself. And I just felt so warm in that. Like it was like a virtual hug from all these different strangers who were like, we're not only going to protect her as a Muslim woman, but her ability to belong in this fandom. And that's the thing about being a girl or a woman on the internet is that you constantly have to defend yourself. and it's a relief when other people step in to do it on your behalf. Definitely.

That's something that I love, like one thing I love about being somebody who is like a woman online is people will ride for you. People will fight for you. They'll speak up for you. They'll shake tables for you. They'll make sure that your voice is included and amplified. And in those moments, just saying yes to that, trust falling into your community that has your back. Those have been my favorite times online. Oh, 100%.

Like, I think that when you go to Comic, or you go to a convention or any space where you're taking virtual connections and putting it into the physical realm, there's always that concern of, am I going to be rejected? And that really goes with anything, you know, just like the first day at school, your first day on the job, am I going to be rejected? And then also being in a fandom space and a geek or a nerd space, it's that constant feeling of do you even know the material well enough? Like, oh, oh, you like, like, you know, you like Beyonce, name all of her freckles, that time of thing, you know? And it's, It's like, come on now.

Like, we can all enjoy things at our different levels, but just the whole feeling that we don't know our stuff enough as women. And that's not just, like I said, it's not just with Star Trek. Like, you know, the assumption that I don't know every character off the top of my head, even though I totally bombed at Star Trek trivia recently. But it's also the implication that we as professionals as women in the world don't know what we're talking about. So that could be anything that you do.

Like I was in the communications field when we worked at Planned Parenthood. And yeah, I would constantly have people telling me not there, like, you know, thank goodness, but I'd have reporters constantly questioning how I was so young and doing what I was doing, how I was doing this and doing what I was doing. And so it's exhausting to then deal with that in a leisurely space, a recreational space. But it is that beautiful thing where people will just go for you. Like even when you're making an inside joke amongst friends and you're ragging on each other on the internet and somebody who doesn't know that your friends are like, hey, leave Blair alone.

It's like, hey, actually, we're cool. But thanks for having my back. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app.

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Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-heart to get started. That's 844-8-4-8-4-I-heart. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats.

I also bring a bit of advice into the mix, so we, too, can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like, After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back.

The future will be intersectional. There will be black people, queer people, and Muslim people. And people like Blair who exist at these intersections. But on social media, people tell Blair there's no such thing as a queer Muslim, so she can't possibly exist. Yet here she is. Existing. What's it like to have so many people online essentially saying that because you're a queer Muslim, you can't possibly exist? It's funny to me. And honestly, you know, I'm so grateful that I've gotten to a place in my heart and in my like own personal journey where I can laugh at it. Because like in my family, if we can laugh at it, no matter how

messed up it is, we've moved on or at least we were able to like view it in a way that's healthy. You know, in Islam, at least, we don't believe that a human being can then tell another human being what their salvation is going to look like, not even the prophet peace be upon him. It's this idea that, you know, Allah is a law, you know, deities are deities and humans are humans. And so I can be very comfortable in saying when somebody says, you can't be Muslim. I'm like, oh my goodness, I did not know that Allah used Instagram. How are you doing? You know? Or I have people who say things like the devil called. They're waiting for you in hell. And I'm just like, oh my goodness. You have the devil's direct line.

That sounds like a problem, you know? So I can really have fun with it. But at the same time, it's really breaking down the fact that in my belief, you know, Islam, faith, you know, regardless of the faith that you come from, those things are so deeply personal. And yes, they have, you know, accompaniments like religious texts, the Quran. You have hadiths, which are, you know, stories passed down from the prophets time and from other leaders. And it is up to you how you walk into that. And so for myself, I will never let another human being tell me what Allah believes about myself. Because as human beings, yes, we can communicate to God through prayer, but it is, again, through the limitations of our own understandings and our own biases.

So I own up to that. But then I also encourage others to think of that as well, not to say this is how you should do Islam, this is how you should not do Islam, but to say what speaks to you. And so it used to really bother me. I think also it used to bother me was being told that I wasn't a black woman because I, you know, am lighter skinned. And what's so frustrating to me is that I so often see lighter-skinned black women using that as a reason to perpetuate and continue being colorist. Instead of grasping the fact that colorism isn't the same as getting made fun of for being lighter skinned. It's not the same as getting made fun of for having a sunburn. It means that as a lighter-skinned black woman, I have enjoyed the benefits.

and the privilege that are unearned of living in a society that calls me beautiful at the peril of my darker skin siblings. And, you know, then understanding that your feelings shouldn't get in the way of you dismantling that. Your feelings, yeah, those are valid, but they should not get in the way or step on the necks of the people who are already being harmed by those systems. So I'm constantly thinking about systems of oppression and systems of privilege and making sure that I'm, you know, quickly and easily discerning when something is from the self-serving interest or input of an individual who wants to do me harm versus when it's something that's worth listening to and being called in. Things like my religion, those are non-negotiable. But of course I'm going to be, you know,

I'm always going to understand things like privilege, class privilege, abled privilege, and be receptive to those conversations. But it is a line to walk between when people are trying to hurt you and when people are calling you on your BS. In 2017, Blair went on Tucker Carlson's Fox News show to discuss the surveillance of Muslim communities. Carlson clumsily tries to call her out for trying to speak on behalf of the Muslim and LGBT community.

Again, the underlying assumption being that Blair couldn't possibly be both Muslim and queer, and that's how she ended up coming out and from millions of people on Fox News. Have you noticed that all identity politics kind of converges in the end? So it's not just about Muslims, it's about the LBGT community, it's about black, it's like, you know, at some point. Well, some of us like myself exist in all of those communities. But I thought maybe you would get, well,

So okay, fun story. I was just feeling really coffee because I had spent the previous year working at Planned Parenthood, you know, educating folks in all parts of the country about abortion and abortion stigma and doing it to like solid effect, where I would have conversations with people where they would come at me and say things like, y'all are the devil. And at the end, they'd be like, oh, maybe I can take my daughter to Planned Parenthood for Sex Ed. So I was feeling on top of the world. My talking points were working.

Messaging was working. I get an inquiry from this guy. It's my last month working at Planned Parenthood because my grant was over. And so I was like, yeah, I can do this. Who is this guy? I was not thinking about like, oh, maybe I should do some counter-in-intel, figure out who he is. I'm going to plan to come out on national TV.

Not thinking about that. I still have friends who are in the classroom. comms and like PR field who just think I'm a genius who orchestrated the whole thing. Not true. I would like to claim that, but no. I was just correcting him. I forgot that we were on stage. It got to this point where I was so fed up with him dancing around it and really trying to erase me and poke and prod at me that I just snapped back in a very eloquent way. And I said, well, actually, in addition to being a Muslim woman, I'm a black queer person. And then I immediately realized I came out on TV and I could feel my phone vibrating.

in my pocket and I could, you know, my partner was actually on set with me because it was remote, so I've never breathed the same air as Tucker Carlson. Alham de la, praise God. But my partner is like standing there looking at me and I can't totally look off camera because, you know, you got to hold a face and I have a pretty good poker face. But if you watch it with that knowledge, then it kind of becomes apparent that like then when I stumbled over my words, it was because I had just come out on national TV. And so everything changed immediately. People who were homophobic. but in my life and then found out who I was, or, you know, am, removed themselves, which I consider to be a blessing, but it still was hard.

Sarah Kay Ellis, the president and CEO of Glad, reached out. And that was awesome because Glad basically scooped me up. And they will do this anytime somebody comes out publicly, they make themselves a resource. They help you tell your story. If you want to do press, they'll make sure that you get connected. And I really just felt scooped up and embraced by the community. and it was just like a really beautiful thing. For a year after that, I felt like I was like the bell of the queer ball

in the same way that I felt like that about Star Trek. I was like, oh, look at this. You know, I feel popular. And I felt like that after I converted to Islam as well, it was kind of this feeling of being new in a community and being exciting. And I also learned as I was dealing with, you know, experiencing those beautiful euphoric things,

that privilege was showing up. Because I had the privilege of growing up in a context where I can be myself. Now, it's not to say that these things should be a privilege. You should be able to be yourself and your sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, regardless of the religious or cultural context you come from, but that is not the case.

Blair didn't want to be the black queer Muslim. She didn't want her story to obscure the stories of other marginalized people who didn't have the ability to come out like she did. So I wasn't realizing that, you know, people were calling me the queer Muslim, that people were looking at me as the queer Muslim. You know, I was becoming very tokenized. And so once I became awake to that,

then I started to really immerse myself within other queer Muslim contexts and start to use my profile or increasingly large profile to help fundraise for organizations like Hidaya, LGBTQ, both in the UK and the US, Muslims for progressive values, and start to feel that this wasn't just me on, you know, like the Blair show, but a responsibility that I had to use, this newly found visibility for the upliftment of others. Because as I was telling stories that are authentic to myself,

and that's important to do, I wasn't realizing how it was harming other people. Like, you know, I was talking about how I've never second guessed myself for being queer in my whole life. But I'm not trying to tell that story in a way that makes others feel bad for going through a homophobic, you know, queerphobic existence.

That's not what I'm called to do. That's not what my role should be. And so now, and I don't think it's completely shifted. I've always tried to be very responsible in how I tell my story, but it's this increased responsibility. So when I have young people reach out to me and they're like, Blair, how can I be out like you? I first explain to them and remind them of the context of the world that we live in and that that's something you have to decide for yourself. And that whether you're out or whether you're not, you're valid, your queerness is valid. And you're not lying to anyone just because you're unable to share your truth with people.

because it is incumbent on our society and on the people that love you to be able to make space for you. And if they don't do that, that's not your fault. And so I've really shifted from this idea of, you know, come out, have a rainbow flag, all types of beautiful things. Those are important, but that's not all queerness is. The people who are living closeted, the people who can't come out, those stories are important. And if I can help to shed light on those or ease the lives of those people, then I'm absolutely going to do that. So, you know, your books are really about archiving and preserving all of the ways that women and non-binary people and black women in particular, you know, the contributions that we really have made to history and society and to culture. Why is preserving that so important to you?

And what can we do to make sure that these voices and these stories don't get overlooked or erased or lost? That is the biggest, most terrifying thing for me, the idea that we will only remember people through the lens of those who remember them. Because, you know, we see it happen often, unfortunately, where we'll have someone who was being critical in calling, you know, Representative John Lewis, all types of, you know, besmirching names, then post a, you know, a beautiful eulogy. Or you have, you know, idiots like Marco Rubio posting the incorrect black person with him while also claiming to honor his memory. If you can't even tell us apart, then no, I'm not going to trust that you remember us for the work that we did. And we saw it when Elijah Cummings passed and people thought that John Lewis is just so frustrating that we are constantly collapsed. So no, I do not trust the institutions that collapse us into one monolith or, you know, sanitize our legacies like what we see with Dr. King. I do not trust those institutions to do us justice.

So, you know, I had made a joke, I think probably a couple years ago that I was going to write my own eulogy. But I also started to think about how that opportunity is denied to so many people. And that's constantly happening to us as black people, as black women, as, you know, black non-men, non-binary folks, etc. And so it's fighting against all of that and really trying to go back to the original text, you know. Like I was able to pour over some of the, you know, handwritten letters that my partner's grandmother had that she corresponded with her husband. And finding those firsthand accounts, there's all types of things. There's pop culture references. There's mentions of just so many minute yet infinitely important things that might get glazed over because, you know, whatever white historian didn't give a shit or whatever, you know, academic historian couldn't be bothered with because they, you know, viewed it as not important.

And because they didn't view it was important, it gets erased, which is terrifying because, you know, it is so, we have so little power. as a people, as black people in this country because of things like enslavement, reconstruction, the New Deal being a, you know, same old, same old deal that, you know, really shafted black folks. Just I could go on and on, but just all of this equal, inequality in the country. And not only do we not learn about those things, but that just makes our condition worse because we are blamed for what we have endured, instead of praised for getting through it while also being held down by centuries and centuries of weight, but we then, you know, have to do this whole mind, mental gymnastics

of figuring out why our conditions are so poor, while we also see, you know, model minorities and white folks uplifted as evidence that the system works, but we're just not trying hard enough instead of actually learning the context. So it's one of those things where it's a cycle and the only way we can break it is by elevating the truth and by changing who is. telling that truth because people are going to tell the truth that's important to them, and it's going to fall along biased lines, especially if the people who are telling those historical truths are faceless and nameless. More after this quick break.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts

than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ was at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid.

He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers

why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone.

I'm Cheryl Strayed, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix, so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside.

We're coming into this world fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate. other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep. Yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get your podcast. Let's get right back to it. If Blair has anything to say about it, the future of history won't be nameless or faceless.

She's building a future where our stories aren't told carelessly. One of your life mottos is to boldly go, you know, from Star Trek. What does your vision for a bold, queer, black, Muslim future look like? Man, I mean, it would be great if we didn't have to get surveilled, you know, just basic things. Like, I think, you know, one of the most basic things of, you know, being a marginalized person or historically marginalized person, is the ability to direct your own future and to have the resources and abilities to do that. Just basic things like having, you know,

Gil Scott Heron says like, you know, I just want a family and a wife and a food and a children and, you know, some food to feed them every night. And it's just those basic things. The fact that there's premiums on water and health care and, you know, the fact that black maternal mortality is egregious and it's not just because black women can't give birth. It's because of the medical system and medical racism.

the fact that the Tuskegee syphilis experiments went on well beyond there was a cure for syphilis and these people went untreated until they were called out in the New York Times in 1972. It's so many of those things. And, you know, it's nothing's going to, you know, let me not limit myself in my own imaginations. There could be something that changes everything overnight, but there's going to be so many things that need to change. And the whole goal, I think, is that we can determine our own futures, not that we have to, you know, endure racelessness or lose our identities, but that our identities and who we are doesn't,

because of the systems we live in, inhibit us from living our full futures. It doesn't mean that I want to suddenly live my life as a white Christian woman. No, I like being who I am. I would just like to be able to be who I am without the consequences of oppressive systems and what those systems put on to me. What do you think of when you think of the future? Who does it include? Who feel safe there? Who's supported there? Star Trek helped a generation of activists like MLK and Blair imagine a future that included them and imagine a future where they could break out of the oppressive systems

that keep us all from being free. And that is a future worth fighting for. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman. help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs.

We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to him, he's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love.

This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become. when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks, and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase out of my skin.

And I just like really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.