There Are No Girls on the Internet - The moral panic behind “groomers” is an attack on marginalized people

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

LGBTQ youth and the people who affirm and support them are being attacked online. Alejandra Caraballo, Clinical Instructor at the Harvard Law Cyber Law Clinic explains why it should concern all of us. WE’RE DOING A LIVE  SHOW in NYC and VIRTUALLY on 5/28! Get tickets: Tangoti.com/live  Donate to the Trevor Project: tangoti.com/trevor  Subscribe to Alejandra’s amazing podcast Queering The Law: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1949544 Follow Alejandra: https://twitter.com/Esqueer_ Find a BansOffOurBody rally near you: Tangoti.com/rally Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Say hello at [e-mail] See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We are in the middle of a full-blown moral panic around LGBTQ identity in schools. LGBTQ folks are being smeared as pedophiles or being accused of grooming kids for sexual abuse. And this comes as trans and queer people are already under attack. According to NBC, state lawmakers have already proposed a record 238 bills that would limit the rights of LGBT folks this year alone. That's more than three per day, with about half of those bills specifically targeting trans folks. So what's empowering these bills?

Well, in part, it's hateful online rhetoric, fear-mongering, and baseless conspiracy theories about trans and queer folks. And Alejandra Carabayo says we all need to be paying attention. My name is Alejandra Caravaggio. I am a civil rights attorney and currently teaching at Harvard Law School's cyber law clinic as a clinical instructor. Alejandra has spent her entire life building power for and with marginalized communities online and off. As we talked, she sat in her office at Harvard flanked by posters of historic power builders like Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson. So you are one of the first trans women of color to ever teach at Harvard.

I guess my first question is, what has that been like for you? And how did you get here? How did you get to be doing what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, it's been surreal. I mean, I've been very fortunate. I know you said one of, like, I was very fortunate to start at the same time as my, my dear friend, Anya Marino, who's working at the LGBTQ advocacy clinic. We started within like a day of each other at, you know, at the club.

So we kind of both start at the same time. We're both the first transmittment of color to teach at the clinic or at Harvard Law. I mean, it's been quite an interesting experience. Like, I've never been so close to like these kind of centers of power in this way. Like I grew up at a very middle class, like Florida suburb. Like, you know, like Harvard just seemed like this like pipe dream out there. And even then, you know, I went to Brooklyn Law School. And I did three years of direct legal work doing immigration, family law.

with trans Latinx immigrants, and then two years of movement impact litigation at the Transcendental Defense Education Fund. And then I've always been a bit of a tech nerd. So, you know, this kind of was a nice way to kind of give myself a break. I kind of really burned myself out on movement work after five years, and especially during the Trump administration, it was just, it was a lot. So it's been great. My students are my favorite thing about teaching here.

Like, they, like, I think one of the things I always say is that, you know, law students come to school, wide-eyed with a lot of hope and enthusiasm for the law. And a lot of people, once they leave law school and actually practice law, become very jaded and cynical. And, like, it's hard. I fought it, but I, in many ways, I've become very jaded and cynical about the law. And when I see, like, the next generation of lawyers and I get to work with them on projects and cases, and really see, like, how they develop throughout the semester in terms of their legal writing skills and everything else, like, and just see, like, the passion and enthusiasm they have for the work. And also just, like, the diverse backgrounds of the students that I'm teaching, all of those things, like, it just, it fills me with hope.

And, like, this, you know, right now, like, to a recording, like, I've been doing final evaluations with students. And this is, like, one of my favorite times because it's really an opportunity. not just for me to help students improve, but to help build them up. Because I have a lot of students that come from disadvantaged backgrounds that are not the typical, you know, what you think of, when do you think of Harvard Law? And they are rock stars. And as like someone here who's like not typically represented, I feel like really realized the power of visibility, right?

Like just even being visible here means like, you know, students that come and tell me things that like they probably can't tell to like their 70-something year old, cis white male professor, right? That just doesn't get it. And so that is just really huge, like that visibility. And I think also, like, I take it to the next step. Like, I have my Sonia poster behind me or my Sonya portrait. I also have, you know, I just like drew a Puerto Rican flag, Judge Jackson and Marcia and Sylvia Rivera, and then, of course, Pedro Luis de Campos. I call it, like, my wall of power. Yes. I love it. I would be so beyond stoked if I came to college or came to law school and you were my professor and I was in your office looking at your wall of power. That's incredible.

Yeah, because you don't see these faces typically in the law school, right? Like you see a lot of older white folks like, you know, famous alumni, stuff like that. It's rare that you see like people of color and like in that way. And it's like I can point that we have two Supreme Court justices, one who's in, alumni of the school and Pedroviso Campos, who a lot of people don't know about, but he was the Puerto Rican independence leader, supposed to be the valedictorian of the class of 1921 of Harvard Law School as an Afro-Latinx

Borinqueenio. And you know, Harvard couldn't at that time stand having an Afro-Latinx man be the valedictorian so they withheld his grades to delay him graduating so he wouldn't be valedictorian. But, you know,

I have him here and I am working to make sure he is more visible on this campus. Yes, carrying that legacy. I love it. I guess one of the questions I'm so interested to get into is I know it has been a hard time for trans folks. And I think something about the Elon must news was that much harder on a time that's already been very difficult. so I want to like acknowledge that. You know, what is Twitter, the experience of being on Twitter on social media been like for you as a trans woman? Yeah.

I mean, it's been, it's been something else, right? So I've been on Twitter for like 12-ish years, but I didn't really use it. I mostly just kind of had a Twitter to just check every once in a while, whatever was trending. And when I started running for city council, which I ultimately did not win, obviously. But when I, you know, I started heavily using Twitter as an organizing tool and as an ability to connect with others in a political way. And I really started building up a following like two years ago. I had like 100 followers on Twitter. And now I'm like at 16,000.

So it's like it's like it's ballooned. And that experience changes, right? When you're an anonymous account with 100 people and you just kind of interact like nobody really cares, right? But the minute you start getting a following and you start getting a lot of engagement and stuff like that, like the experience changes. You really start getting singled out for people that if you like, like for instance on Monday, like I criticized Elon Musk buying Twitter and called in a question. Like a lot of the things that he does that come off as very like white supremacists. Like him flashing the OK symbol on SNL, him having like a segregated workplace at Tesla. His parents having wealth invested in an emerald mine in apartheid era, South Africa.

I mean, I'm always just skeptical of any wealthy white person from South Africa. Like, like, major red flags. Yeah. Like, yeah, you know, the family's wealth is built on colonialism, like explicitly. But, you know, things like that. And then, you know, just a history of transphobic jokes and statements on Twitter. And, you know, I think, like, calling you the question that. And my God, I got, like, hate mail on my personal working email, which, like, that almost never happens.

And, like, I had to go private because, like, I was getting not just bombarded because, like, I have my notifications filtered. So, like, if they don't follow me, I don't, I don't see it. You know, so like people can go at me all they want and do what a ratio, whatever the hell they can. I don't care. Like, I don't see it that way. But what ends up happening is I do have my DMs open. So I can usually tell when something is going sideways when I start getting a ton of actually hate DMs. And those get filtered as well, right? So it's just like message requests. So I don't even see them unless I like specifically go. Like it doesn't even send me a notification. It just like it's just when I'm checking my messages. So I I might check them like once a day or something like that. And yeah, and like flooded with messages on Monday, and it was just like a lot and it was overwhelming. And I was like, you know, I'm taking this private. And the only other time I've gotten that dog piled was when I criticized Joe Rogan.

There's something about these like white men that just like drives others to just go to all these lengths to defend. them. I don't understand. They don't need to be defended. They have Elon Musk is a richest man in the world with 85 million Twitter followers. Joe Rogan has the most listened to podcasts in the world at like $200 million. He's going to be fine. He doesn't need a personal army to defend him. Yes. Have you ever seen that meme where it's like the Simpsons meme where it's like Elon Musk, you know, valid criticism and like internet weirdos diving in front of the bullet to save him from any kind of valid criticism. I feel like Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, there are two men who really, I feel like people must search

on Twitter for their names to be like, yeah, like someone criticizing him, not on my watch. And if you notice a lot of people who start criticizing Elon Musk or even Joe Rogan, like, what they'll do is they'll misspell his name. Like I've seen, like on my subsequent post, I was like using the name Melon Husk. Because like, they were, but they literally, that's what they do. Like, how much of a loser do you have to be to sit there and search the name Elon Musk so that when you see negative criticism, you dogpile that person and you, like, attack them? Like, it's just, oh, it's just, like, ridiculous.

Like, get a life, get a job, do something. Definitely sounds like the behavior of someone who calls themselves an advocate of free speech. So for sure. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent,

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I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week, we dive head first into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything

and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are No Girls on the Internet, is doing a live show on May 28th at Caviot in New York City and virtually from wherever you're at.

We'll have amazing guests, a meet and greet, and much, much more. Go to tangoity.com slash live and get your tickets, and I cannot wait to see you there. And we're back. We've seen increasing attacks on LGBTQ folks using the label Groomer. According to Research for Media Matters, on Twitter, the number of tweets with grumer-related language increased by over 60% in April, with over 870,000. tweets and retweets compared to nearly 545,000 tweets in March. Now, grooming is a serious thing.

It's used to describe the actions an adult takes to build a relationship with a child that makes that child more vulnerable to sexual abuse. And today, both online and off, extremists imply that LGBTQ folks or those who affirm LGBTQ youth are actually pedophiles who present a dangerous threat to children. It's a resurgence of a well-worn tactic of extremists. In the 70s, anti-gay activist Anita Bryant ran the Save Our Children campaign aimed at repealing a local Florida ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. And a key component of her campaign was suggesting that gay teachers were a threat to the safety of kids.

And it's not just fringe extremists. Mainstream Republicans have passed legislation attacking marginalized identities like laws criminalizing trans youth or Florida's don't say gay bill that puts vague restrictions on talking about sexual orientation and classrooms. Florida governor Ron DeSantis' press secretary, Christina Pushall, described the legislation as, quote, the anti-grooming bill, tweeting that if you did not support the don't say gay bill, quote, then you're probably a groomer or at least don't announce the grooming of four to eight-year-old children.

Honestly, it is not difficult to see the influence of the Q&on conspiracy in her comments. And it should not be surprising to find that this moral panic has accompanied a wave of violent in real life threats against LGBTQ people. It's already been kind of toxic. I think there's definitely been a vibe shift since February that I've noticed. And it's been on like anything I've ever seen the kinds of attacks on LGBTQ people, specifically labeling LGBT people as groomers and pedophiles. I never thought that would happen in that way. And it's just absolutely gross. Like it's one of the grossest things I've ever seen.

And so we saw like in February like lives of TikTok, James Lindsay, some of these like right wing trolls, Jack Pasoviig, and eventually got all the way up. And then what really changed was Desanus's press secretary, Christina Pusha labeling the don't say gay bill as an anti-grooming bill. And that was the first time we had like a government official put the imprimatur of like, you know, this is a government message that like we're, you know, if you oppose, don't say gay, you're a groomer kind of thing. And it was terrifying. Like, like, I think for pretty much all the trans people I know on Twitter, like it's like blaring red siren, like this is getting bad. Like this is going to lead to people getting killed. And we've already seen someone walk into a bar. in Brooklyn with kerosene and a gay bar and set in on fire just like two days ago someone threw bricks through a Pride Center in Burlington, Vermont. And this comes about two weeks

after I believe her name was Feather Fern was murdered in Vermont, like a trans woman. And the person tried to initiate like the trans panic defense. And so like we've already seen that. And like like the attacks on like this gay couple on an Amtrak train in California being called pedophiles and child stealers because they adopted two kids. It's just horrific stuff. And this is directly as a result of the toxic online discourse. And because of this, like Twitter has generally tried to do the right thing. But anytime it's specifically around trans people, anytime they try to make it better for trans people, the right-wing echo sphere just goes into overdrive.

Like, they just, like it is like, they feel like it's their constitutional right to go on private companies' websites to harass trans people. It's really not surprising to me that Twitter has emerged as this new battleground for the so-called culture wars. Traditionally, marginalized people use Twitter to carve out power and a voice for ourselves. We built movements like Me Too and Black Lives Matter on Twitter. And I think the idea of marginalized people building power on Twitter is incredibly threatening the people who have traditionally had all the power.

For instance, Elon Musk said that he was inspired to buy Twitter after the right-wing parody site, the Babylon B, was suspended for refusing to delete a transphobic tweet, misgendering Admiral Rachel Levine, who was a trans woman and the assistant secretary for health for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And like, that's what we saw, like we saw what was reported, right? the Babylon B being suspended for its joke about Dr. Levine was supposedly one of the last straws for Elon Musk. And so, like, they push the envelope, they push this hatred. And then when a site tries to step in and say, like, this is leading to violence, this is causing harm, they, you know,

cry free speech or whatnot. But what it really is is they want the freedom to bully. Right. Like, because if you want to say, like, I hate trans people. I don't believe they should exist. You can say that to the cows come home, right? Like, you could just go on a street corner and yell it. That is free speech. The government cannot stop you from saying that. You can scream it at a corner. You can write manifestos. You can, like, do it. Write a novel how much you hate trans people. Knock yourself out, right? But a social media company is different. They are not under those obligations. And people fundamentally do not understand that. And the problem is, like, if you make a social media company hostile to people, you're not going to stay around very long.

Like, we've seen what sites with no moderation are like, 4chan, A, A. Chan, Aikun, you know, all these sites, like, they don't have advertisers. No, like, typical person goes on there because it is filled with racial slurs, antisemitic slurs, homophobic slurs, like, just the worst of the worst. Like, it is literally filled with actual Nazis, like, posting Nazi means. So, like, we know what that looks like. And so at some end, like, Twitter has to engage in moderation.

And really what it is is like they're trying to use trans people as a wedge to basically destroy a social media site for daring to protect trans people. The way that I see it is that, you know, in the last five, ten years or whatever, social media platforms, I would say all of them, but really Twitter is like a special platform. people who have been traditionally marginalized have been able to, you know, have a little bit of more of a voice and have a little bit more power that institutionally we didn't really get to have. And I think that that's maybe one of the reasons why we're seeing this Twitter be this big battlefield right now because I think people who are threatened by that, people who are threatened when they see, you know, people who have traditionally had a harder time making their voices heard, get those platforms, get those voices. And even if a platform like Twitter does the bare minimum to make their platform a little bit hospitable to these voices, that feels very threatening. Yeah, that feels very threatening.

And therefore, they have to sort of go out of their way to remind folks, no, this platform needs to be hostile toward people who are traditionally marginalized. I want that status quo back where I can say whatever and they can't say anything. Right, right. And it's like the classic saying, right? When you're all you're accustomed to is privilege, equality feels like oppression. And that's very much what it is. Libs of TikTok is a Twitter account run by Shaya Raycheck with over 1.2 million followers that basically exist to spread lies and fear about teachers grooming children.

The account is called public schools, quote, government-run indoctrination camps for the LGBTQ, spread outlandish lies about LGBTQ youth and teachers, while also singling them out for harassment and abuse. It's also become an influential piece of right-wing online infrastructure. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' press secretary, Christina Pushall, said the account truly opened her eyes on the state of LGBTQ education in schools. I think one of the most illustrative issues of this was TikTok.

What it is is, it's all about fundamentally power, and it's power to make sure that the in-group, maintains power in society and the outgroup is minimized. And in this case, the in-group is mostly white conservatives, mostly white supremacists and others and fascists. And then what you have is the out-group is like queer, LGBTQ people, people of color, women, others, and like that they want to marginalize. And so what ends up happening is, is like you have TikTok, right? So like TikTok, or not TikTok, lives of TikTok, is specifically retweeting videos of LGBTQ teachers that likely have like maybe 100 or 1,000 views on TikTok. These are relatively obscure people that are just

posting their thoughts online. They rip those videos and they post them online with very leading titles. Some of them, like, I've watched the videos. It's just like a teacher talking about the students asking them who their husband is, and they, like, came out to the class. And they were like, if anyone comes out and if any gay teacher comes out, they should be fired on the spot. Like, that's literally what lives of TikTok's it. And so then they come out and they're like, you know, they're just exposing liberals for what they say and they're just showing up and that's what they do.

And then, like, meanwhile, like, they're sending a torrent of harassment towards these people that are relatively anonymous. And additionally towards school districts, they're creating a whole panic by like pushing this groomer libel. And then essentially, you know, they want the power to do that. And then the minute that anybody steps up

and says, yeah, this is who that person is, Shia Racheck, like they forgot to use a pseudonym when they registered their domain name and now that's public information, like they went into overdrive to a, attacked Taylor Lorenzo at the Washington Post, who didn't even expose it, by the way. Internet researchers exposed it. And they were so upset that this person was like doxed or, you know, quote unquote, or that they were exposed and that like it was so vicious and she's exposed to

harassment all this stuff. And it's like, it's literally what she does. She sends harassment and like not her directly, but it's like what's called stochastic terrorism, right? She knows that by putting somebody on blast on her Twitter, what will happen? And the fact that she was scared of people knowing who she was and the fact that they acted like it was some big thing to expose that, like grow up, grow up. Like you have an account with a million followers now. You are getting interviewed by Tucker Carlson in national media and you have an expectation of privacy. I'm sorry, you do not. and again, don't use your actual name to register a domain, a domain.

Like, just don't do it. So, but again, like going back to the dynamic, like, this is about preserving power, right? Like, that's what lives of TikTok does, right? It creates a chilling effect. How many queer or LGBTQ teachers on TikTok are not going to talk on TikTok or post a video for fear that they will be. their content ripped and then there will be fired

or have a mob at a school board meeting talking about them asking for them to be fired. Teachers making or parents making accusations against them like all these things just for existing as a queer person, right? Like it is a moral panic

that is what was going on right now. I'm so good that you brought this up because this is something that I talk about a lot on the show and just in general. So Elon Musk and people like him, they love talking about free speech. And they, from the way they talk, it would seem as though the people who are likely facing consequence for the things they say are white, conservative or libertarian men who just

like want to say slurs or whatever. But the reality is that it's marginalized people who are much more likely to face consequences for the things they say, especially online. And so, you know, I guess my question is like, how can we, and I think that just completely gets missed whenever we're having a conversation about speech and who, you know, free speech for who. How can we change that conversation, change that focus, so that it is about the reality that it's queer folks, trans folks, sex workers, activists who are either pushed out of spaces or silenced or, you know, de-platform for what they say. Like, why do you think that that when we talk, but when people who seem so obsessed with talking about speech, why do you feel like though the marginalized people

who we know are the people who are facing consequences for what they say, like, why do they get, why are they able to get left out so often? Yeah. It's mainly because, you know, again, it's insidious what these people do, right? So it again boils down to the difference between equality and equity, right? So if everyone has access on Twitter, that's equality. And so everyone's, everyone's equal here on the site.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's equity, right? Like there's all kinds of things that go into a social media site. Like, even having time to be able to post on Twitter, That's a privilege because a lot of people do not, like, there are people working two jobs, three jobs, like doing stuff. Like, they don't have time to pay attention on Twitter. They're raising kids, like, doing all this stuff. So, like, that already, like, you're already creating all these things.

But, you know, one of the things I always love to point out with, like, the difference between equity and quality is, like, let's say you had three children that were different ages and sizes. One is, like, three foot, one is four foot, and one is five foot. And there is a four foot fence covering while they're trying to watch a baseball game. game. Well, you could say, I'm going to give them all a one foot, like block for them to stand on. The third child is still not going to be able to see. But that's equality, right? They all got the same boost. And the first kid who didn't even need it in the first place is now even higher up for a better view. But what equity is is understanding the nature of the situation and giving that first kid a two foot block, the middle kid a foot block, and then just leaving it. And they are, you know, that is equity, right? And so, understanding that. And so there's an idea here that we, you know, we've been been discussing within the clinic, you know, within our course here in our seminar, like talking about algorithmic reparations, like the designs of these sites, because people act like that these things are designed

neutrally. They're not. There's always conscious bias that goes into the design of these websites. And so if you're not actively countering it, you are permitting it. And so that's one of the aspects of the design of sites like Twitter that needs to be accounted for. And I think Twitter hasn't necessarily gone that way. They're just trying to plug holes in everything that shows up, right? But they're at least attempting. I think they have like they're trying. So that concept of equity, right? That's what they're demonizing. They're demonizing diversity, equity, inclusion. They're acting like it's this horrible thing. They're banning, you know, any talk about critical race theory, which like, I'm like, if you want to take critical race theory,

you have to be like a two or three out here at Harvard Law School. Like, we're not teaching it to kindergartners. Like, that is not what's happening. But that doesn't matter, right? Like, all they have to do is scream it. And that's all of a sudden, that's reality. And like what is even more disturbing beyond the critical race theory, which is like just a wholesale denial of this country's history, it's all to protect white innocence, right?

the end of the day. Like, that's what it's about. It's protecting white instance. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me. Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

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And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific. insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.

Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of family secrets. And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week, we dive head first into the complex power of secrecy.

how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything, and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off,

and that was the last time I saw him. Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Just in case you needed any more proof that we're in the middle of a full-blown moral panic, last month, Florida's Education Department accused publishers of trying to indoctrinate kids with math textbooks by trying to sneak in lessons grounded in emotional and social learning, which is basically a classroom methodology that helps kids understand their emotions around subjects

and demonstrate empathy for others. For example, if a math book said that sometimes math problems can look scary, or if a book said, it's good to work together to solve problems. those would be examples of social and emotional learning. The Washington Post reports that Florida's Education Department said that it rejected 41% of books, the most ever in Florida's history, even though at least 24 of those books scored high marks

from the official state reviewers for conforming to Florida's standards, but were rejected anyway. And this crackdown happens, all while people like University of Virginia recent grad, Emma Camp, who published a recent New York Times op-ed about how conservative speech is being suppressed on college campuses are uplifted.

as the face of attacks on free speech. What's more devious is like this attack on emotional and social learning. Like this is what we saw in Florida with like 40 books, math books, banned. For the crime of putting, it's sometimes better to learn together. Listen to other people. Hear what they have to say. And it's like, are you trying to raise a country of sociopaths? I mean, what is the goal of that?

Like, literally these people would like attack Mr. Rogers today. Yeah, I saw one of my favorite books growing up was babies everywhere. And it's like essentially a picture book about how there's babies everywhere. And it was banned in some state. I can't remember where. And the offending, the only like offending image, I use that in scare quotes, was one of the babies behind the baby was two men. and one of the men has his hand on the other shoulder. And so it's like, I was reading this interview with the author.

And she was like, we don't explicitly say that they're married or that they have this child. It's like they could be brothers. They could be friends. Like, we don't even say anything. But under these under in this new climate, just the suggestion like, oh, two men standing next to each other. No, can't have that in schools. Can't have anybody seeing that. Yeah.

And I mean, that that's, that's part of it, right? Like, it's erasing any sense of queerness. And this is what, like, is frustrating about mainstream coverage around this whole debate, right? Like, we constantly see op-ed after op-ed about, I don't feel like I can say what I want to say in classrooms. And, like, what they mean in, like, college classrooms or, like, college courses or college campuses. Like, I feel like if I say something, my classmates might ostracize me. And I'm like, okay, that's real life. Like, I'm sorry, that's a new concept.

You say something unpopular and people will not like it. Yeah. I mean, you can. I can't go into my office and be like, all y'all smell like shit without my coworkers getting about that. What's the deal? It's like, yeah, it's called, it's always been that way. There are consequences of the things that you say.

People can ostracize you when they don't like what you have to say. And I guess I feel like, in comparison, to the way that we're seeing this very clear crackdown on marginalized voices. It just seems so like whose stories get amplified of, you know, quote unquote, having their free speech crackdown on where it's like, oh, my college classroom,

when I said something, they didn't like it, compared to, you know, people being five. It's just really wild to me in the mainstream coverage who gets amplified and who doesn't. Yeah, like in that story that was in the New York Times, recently, like the woman who wrote it, like, had already just graduated and I think was working for Reason magazine and was being pushed up by fire, and which is like a big org, like,

libertarian org. And like, has like these powerful people behind her, like, platforming. And she's like, she went to University of Virginia, which is like already like one of the top schools in the country. And so she's like, went to a top school, is working at a national media and is like, I can't say what I want to say in the college classroom. Meanwhile, the most banned books in the country are literally, is like literally anything dealing with LGBTQ people. I mean, we're literally talking about like books that feature like two penguins. Like, it's, it's insane. Like, and there are like entire, like, there are school boards like saying that books should be burned.

Like, I'm sorry. Like, on what way is any of this, like on an equal plane? Like that is a much greater threat because like, you know, as the cliche goes, like, where they burn books, they will burn people. Like, that is far scarier because that is much more systemic and that is using the levers of government to achieve it. It's not a private company deciding who is coming into their little social media site and saying stuff. Like that is, they're using the government. And so like that is on, that's explicitly what the First Amendment was to. protect. The first amendment is to protect us against the government censoring speech. So we have

governments censoring speech, banning books, and like barely a pip. And like all of a sudden we have like one white girl on a college campus who feels like she can't say something and like that's on the front page of the New York Times. Like I'm sorry. Like I'm you lost me. I guess you know, do you see this kind of climate that we're in that is so hostile to or where we're seeing such a backlash against marginalized voices, that, you know, we know brew online and brew on social media sites. Do you see this as a direct threat to democracy? Yeah, I absolutely do. I mean, we've seen what social media can do when it's unchecked.

Literally, all we have to do is like a 2016. I mean, I remember being in the middle of it on Reddit. Like, Reddit was a heavy site for disinformation in the 2016 campaign. and like I felt like I was losing my mind. And like reading similar stories of people in Ukraine in 2014, like that's what it feels like when you're subjected to that kind of disinformation because like you will talk to people in real life. And like nobody talks that way or believes anything like that.

And like there's one thing to be said about social media bubbles and like stuff like that. But it's a whole other one is like this just like completely out of left field stuff. And just the kind of vitriol that gets, you know, shared online. And like we've seen where that leads, right? Like Trump was most definitely like it's probably not the only factor. Like there's a million things that went into it, but a huge reason why Trump was elected is because of disinformation on Facebook, on Twitter, on Reddit, on all these sites. And so for people to think that this doesn't have like a potential threat to democracy, it has the ability to influence democracy. Like a conspiracy theory on Twitter got a man to go with

an assault rifle to a pizza shop because of conspiracy theories around like the whole PizzaGate conspiracy. There are people who believe that Wayfair is shipping children in furniture. Like if you and like was the, I feel like this one's always misquoted, but the Voltaire quote is like if you can get people to believe in absurdities, you can get them to commit atrocities. and like that that's exactly the kind of thing that I think about because like if you start labeling like trans people as this like groomer cult that are going after children and damaging their bodies quote unquote and doing all these things and like all of this like and just the language you're using it is a matter of time it is not an if it is a when someone is going to take

matters into their own hands and they're either going to go shoot up a gay bar or they're going to bomb a gender clinic. I mean, we've seen this is the kind of stuff that's going on around like the organizing around gender clinics is the same kind of stuff that was happening in the 90s around abortion clinics. And like we've seen what happens around that. And so like this kind of amped up rhetoric, it's stochastic terrorism. Like you can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online.

But the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed it to happen in the first place. Yeah, I feel the exact same way. I live in D.C., so I remember very clearly when that happened at Comet ping pong, the pizza place here in D.C., like, but, and I think I was, even before we just got on the call just now, I was reading that, I think the FBI arrested a man who was threatening to attack Miriam Webster, the dictionary, because he did not agree with the way that they were defining man and woman. And yeah, I just feel like we've come to this place where the temperature has been raised so much. And I see that as a direct result of things happening on social media. Of social media algorithms really, you know, prioritizing the most extreme content, the most, you know, inflammatory rhetoric. And just, yeah, I guess I really, I hadn't intended for this interview to sound so alarmist. But it's, it is, I feel it.

So, you know, it's just a lot. I don't, I don't like, I don't feel good about, when I ask, you know, where does this end? I don't really like imagining what the answer to that question is. Like, where does this end? I don't know. Probably nowhere good. So is what I've been reading. Oh, my God.

So you're just like, like, really. Longful of doom scrolling is what I call it. So, no, I held it the. the book Gay Berlin, which I talked about like pre-Wymar, but also mostly Weimar Republic era, Germany and how, you know, it was a haven for LGBT people. Had like the first, the first surgery, gender affirming surgeries. It had some of the first attempt, like first administrations of hormones. The first serious attempt at a study of queer and trans people,

lesbians and gays and others. There's like it just like by Magnus Hirschfeld, like all those things. And there was just kind of this like golden era where it was like it that never really existed in that way in the West of tolerance, right? In Berlin. And it all just came crashing down so quickly in 1933. But like if you have been paying attention, like it wasn't a surprise. Like a lot of people got out like starting in the late 20s, early 30s.

Like they saw what was happening. And so it's like I think people just think that like these things come out. nowhere. And like, you don't, you know, and I always hate, like, it's like Godwin's law, like, bring up the Nazis and stuff like that. Because that's kind of, we just have so much media, so that's like it's easier to relate to. But I think, like, if you, you don't need to go far, you can go to contemporary examples. You have Hungary and Poland. Hungary has banned the existence of trans people. They've banned all legal recognition of trans people in the country. They have passed gay propaganda laws, which the press secretary,

for Ron DeSantis in Florida admitted now that it was based on the ban in Hungary. So they're getting these ideas from these like far-right authoritarian, illiberal countries. And like Russia just dissolved the biggest

LGBT rights org in the country and they've passed a gay propaganda law. Like they see that and they see that as a model. Like that is their goal. That is their inspiration. And that's terrifying. because like that's exactly the same kind of stuff. Like queer people right now are like that canary in the coal mine.

And I would argue like before that, it was, it's very much been immigrants. Like having been an immigration attorney for three years, the kinds of stuff that people would say about immigrants, the kinds of policies we have here in the United States, like, like are the conditions that we hold immigrants in and detention and the rights that they have like would violate the genie of a convention. Like, it is atrocious what we do. It is a human rights, like, violation and crime, what we do around immigrants. And, like, we saw the rhetoric with Trump, right? And then now it's LGBTQ people. And we already start to see this kind of massive reactionary backlash to the George Floyd protest, the Black Lives Matter protests.

And, like, it's only a matter of time. Like, this is going to get worse. And it always reminds me of that poem. It's like, you know, and I posted this. viral and, you know, some people were like, well, you, was this group or was that a group? I'm like, that's not the point. There's not a point of being a first group. It's the point that like, if you don't stand up for a marginalized group, like, it's not going to stop. And so I posted the, you know, the famous poem. It's like, first they came for trans people

and I did nothing because I'm not trans. That they came for the lesbians and gays. And I did nothing because I'm not lesbian and gay. And I was like, we are here, right? Like, especially after this like groomer rhetoric and it was just like it was mind-blowing to me to see conservative gay men freak out and like oh this has gone too far like like Andrew Sullivan was like apoplectic about the groomer labor being applied to him is happy to talk happy for that label to be applied to trans people but the minute it got applied to him was like whoa whoa this has gone too far and it's like where did you think this was going like did you think that they could just delineate between trans people and queer people, like, they can't.

Like, they're all the same. They think we're all degenerate. They think we're all, like, need to be wiped from this planet. Like, that, it's exterminationist. They are not going to make some fine distinction for the good ones. And be like, oh, no, no, no, he's okay. No, not going to happen. Well, you know, I always end my interviews with a question.

Are you hopeful? I guess I feel like, I mean, I'll ask. It doesn't sound like you are. When you look at the state of things today, are you hopeful? I posted about this on my Twitter the other day. I am a pessimist. I am a pessimist. I love the quote from and I'm a huge Marvel nerd. Like I love the MCU. I've watched it. I just completed a whole rewatch of the MCU for like the fifth time. But there's like a Zendaya's character MJ and Spider-Man and she's talking Linda. She's like, you know, I always expect disappointments. That way, you know,

if it happens, then, you know, I won't be disappointed. And that's the kind of attitude I have, which I feel like a lot of people, like that doesn't work for them and that's fine. Like some people need to be optimistic. Nothing wrong with that. The way I function, the way that I cope is pessimism because if I'm wrong, which I always hope I am, things worked out much better than I anticipated. And so that's always kind of served me well.

And so, like, for me, like, I see this going down a very dark path. and I don't think there's anything changing and is only accelerating and getting worse. And like I fully believe like by 2024, like by November 2024 or early 2025, like I think we'll see a like basically collapse of democracy in the United States. And things can go very south very quickly. And so I've been starting to prepare. I'm getting my passport ready and I'm starting to save up a ton of money and like getting ready to like, yeah, hey, Europe sounds like.

good around this time of year and like, you know, and I know there's not an option for everyone. It really isn't. Like, a lot of people can't just immigrate. A lot of people can't get passports. A lot of people can't get the money to even fly, right? So, like, that's a privilege in of itself, but like, we've got time. If you can, like, you know, save money, like all those things. I feel like I'm being very alarmist and, like, negative. But, hey, if it doesn't, if everything turns out fine and I'm catastrophically wrong, which I'm like, hope I am. Well, now I've got my passport and I got a ton of money and I can go on vacation. Oh, there you go. That's a like, you know, a little silver lining on this shit sandwich that is our

democracy and our country. Oh, I mean, it's bad. I used to, I used to joke years ago back when I thought it was impossible. So my organizing background is in the reproductive rights movement. And I used to joke years ago that like, oh, if Roe ever falls, I hope I'm, I will be reading about it from the newspaper in a different country. And now it seems like, oh, well, I'm still here in the United States and it seems like it's going to happen. So guess that didn't work out for me so well. Yeah. I mean, like, ask, you know, LGBTQ Russians, right? Like, I used to have some friends who, who were from Russia. And it was like, when is it going to get too bad to go back, right? Like, for them, like to even visit their family.

And, you know, now, obviously, things have gone to a point where it's like not, not really okay. But for a thousand people, like, was it in 2013 when they passed the gay propaganda law? Was it like 2017 when Chechnya started a concentration camps for gay men? Like, is it now that they start the word? So, like, there's always a question of like, why is the right timing? And I don't think there really is. Like, if you left Berlin in 1929, you'd be fine. If you left in 1932, you'd be fine.

If you've even left in 1933, you'd likely be okay. If you waited until 1935 or even 1939, you are not going to be okay, right? And so it's like learning our history so that you can see the signs and knowing, okay, this is my red line, like, I need to get out of here. Or in having an exit plan, because things can also move quickly. I feel that like knowing your history and knowing history is empowering. I mean, I'm glad that we have folks like you in our institutions who are helping, you know, the next generation to really have that power to be empowered by our collective shared history. Try as conservatives might to make that impossible to study and know and learn from. Yeah, exactly.

Where can folks keep up with all of the incredible work that I know that you are up to? Yeah, you could find me. All my social media handles are S-queer, underscure. So ESQU-E-E-R. It is a portmanteau of Esquire and Queer. Again, you can find me at S-square underscore on Twitter, Instagram. And you can catch my podcast, Queering the Law. We typically release weekly on Mondays.

You can find out basically anywhere where podcasts are issued. And, yeah, thank you so much for having me. Is there anything that I did not ask, but you want to make sure it gets included? Yeah, please, please donate to the Trevor Project. There is going to be a massive smear campaign against the Trevor Project this week or this upcoming week. This is how low they've stooped. They're attacking a suicide hotline. It's fucking sick.

Like that's all I'm going to say. So please, if you can, $10, $20, $30. It's life-saving work. Our youth are bearing the brunt of this. and they need the help and support. So please, if we can, donate to the Trevor Project. So I try really hard not to get too negative on this podcast, and it's been a little bit difficult lately.

If you're listening in the United States where I'm based, it's been difficult to ignore what feels like a coordinated attack on marginalized people in the United States. From attacks on LGBTQ youth and educators to attacks on abortion access, we are witnessing an anti-democratic rollback of our rights. On Saturday, May 14th, in cities across the country, we'll be mobilizing to demand protection of abortion access. I'll be there in D.C., so if you see me, please say hello.

And you can go to tangoity.com slash rally to find an event happening in your city. Now, I know it is a hard time. I know it's so easy to check out and disengage. I feel tempted to myself sometimes. But I also know that when we come together, we are powerful, and I believe in us. Hope to see you there.

If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our merch store at tangoody.com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoity.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks and just,

first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I, like, was just so wanting to, like, be out of that phase out of my skin. And I just, like, really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests, like Amelia clerk. When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever. And my first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do?

Rather be disappointed in. Do that. David O'Yelloo. I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. Dennis Leary, Gaten Moderato from Stranger Things. Tena Monsu. Camilla Morone.

Carrie Kenny Silver and more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man.

They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. On the podcast, reality with the king, I, Carlos King, Recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the T, everybody's talking about. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human.