There Are No Girls on the Internet - TikTok ban signed into law. What happens next?

Episode Date: April 27, 2024

Don’t freak out! You can still use TikTok for the time being. But here’s where we could be headed. Here's what TikTok's anticipated court challenge could look like: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/26/tiktok-congress-legal-00154688  Alleged pro-Palestinian bias was part of the argument used to justify banning TikTok, but that argument doesn't make a lot of sense: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/11/13/tiktok-facebook-instagram-gaza-hastags/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. to There are No Girls on the internet where we explore the intersections of identity, social media, and technology. And y'all, I take one week for rounding up the news and we get the big update. That is the big TikTok update. Joey, were you surprised to see that Biden signed legislation essentially banning TikTok into law this week?

Like, I want to say that I was surprised, but at this point, I don't know. I've not really, not really surprised. I feel like who's to say what's happening with this administration. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. So I want to tell folks like what's going on and then I'll get into sort of my thoughts about it. So in case you have not heard, this week, President Biden signed a foreign aid package that includes a bill that would ban TikTok if the China-based parent company,

Fight Dance, fails to divest from the app and sell it to a non-Chinese-owned company. We have been talking about the potential for a TikTok ban for a while. It sounds like there was some like very serious political maneuvering to get where we are today. So earlier this year, House lawmakers overwhelmingly voted in favor the bill called the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act when it was brought as like a standalone measure with a shorter timeframe for bite dance to sell TikTok. So that timeframe was six months. It seemed like that bill, even though a lot of,

of people in the House were like, yes, this bill, like it passed overwhelmingly. It seemed like it might have had trouble passing in the Senate. Like key Senate leaders were pretty noncommittal about it. Some even signaled that they might not vote for it. So the way to get this TikTok legislation through then became bundling it into the high priority for an aid package, which essentially forced the Senate to take up the issue earlier than it probably would have otherwise. So how this worked was that in addition to separate votes on aid packages for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan, lawmakers were also voting on the 21st century Peace Through Strength Act, which was sort of like a grab bag of popular national security measures that slate reports included things like bills to seize frozen Russian assets or the ability to impose sanctions on fentanyl traffickers and a lot more sort of like national security stuff. and that the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, aka the TikTok legislation, was sort of bundled within that larger legislation.

In order to get aid for any of these countries, senators had to vote for the entire package, which included the TikTok bill. So that's kind of how we got to where we are right now, where in earlier episodes, Joey, you and I were like, oh, maybe it'll happen. Like, maybe the Senate will pass it. I guess we're going to discuss it. We'll see how we went from that to like, oh, now it is signed. into law. Yeah. It feels like the kind of thing that that like shouldn't happen in a functioning

democracy, I will say. Like I don't. It feels like the kind of thing that maybe we shouldn't just have like a grab bag of different legislation that has to all be passed together, which all on its own is, is, you know, open to scrutiny. But yeah, the peace through strength act too like that. I'm not one to say things sound like they're like 1984-esque, but that is a 1984 type law name. Like, are you serious?

Like that, I don't know. And yeah, no, I will say, I mean, like you said, I will admit, I was, I honestly did not think this is going to pass. I thought the Biden administration currently is facing a lot of scrutiny about a lot of different issues and a lot of

different issues, particularly that young people are paying attention to. You know, I would have thought this maybe would have been a little bit less priority for them, but guess not. Yeah, that is. So I want to get into that because I feel like that is really coloring a lot of the conversation is like that exact sentiment. And I feel like, I think I've said this on the show before that I thought that we

would see a TikTok ban in 2024. Like that was on my bingo card of legislation that I thought was going to happen. However, I think the fact that we were talking about this standalone legislation and then we're talking about it as bundled in these foreign aid packages, like, I guess I'm surprised by how it ended up happening, how quickly it happened. I thought we had a lot more time, but here we are. So in the previous version of this standalone legislation, Bight-Dance had six months to sell TikTok to a non-Chinese owner. But the legislation that Biden just signed into law this week extends that timeline. And so the new law would allow TikTok to continue to operate in the U.S. if ByteDance sold it within 270 days or about nine months, a timeframe that Biden could extend up to a year.

In case you're wondering, this timeline puts the date of sale and whatever happens after that sale after the election in November, which I cannot imagine is by coincidence. Wonder why he picked that date, you know. So lawmakers are really going out of the same. way to try to make sure that people don't think of this as a TikTok ban specifically. They're like, TikTok ban, what are you talking about? Like, we love TikTok. We don't want to keep TikTok from people. So Virginia Democrat, Mark Warner, who was one of the lawmakers who was really pushing

this legislation, said, I want to make clear to all Americans, this is not an effort to take your voice away. Many Americans, particularly young Americans, are rightfully skeptical. At the end of the day, they've not seen what Congress has seen. They've not been in the classified briefings that Congress has held. which have delved more deeply into some of the threats posed by foreign control of TikTok. But what they have seen beyond even this bill is Congress's failure to enact meaningful consumer protections on big tech and may cynically view this as a diversion or worse, a concession to

U.S. social media platforms. To those young Americans, Joey, I want to say we hear your concern. And we hope that TikTok will continue under new ownership, American or otherwise. What do you think about that? You know, I really feel seen and heard. I really feel like the Democratic Party definitely got at all of my concerns about this luggage relation. I, yeah. Oh, my God, that makes so much sense. Of course, it's just classified information that we haven't seen. I don't know. I mean, that's so, that's such a ridiculous statement for so many reasons. Like, first of all, that is so, so patronizing. And I feel like that, like, we're. in a weird spot where I think a lot of politicians are very much like leaning on that like, well, you know, it just, well, there's classified information you don't know about or whatever. And I don't think that's working as well in this situation because like the whole point is,

it's an issue of freedom of speech and it's an issue of like, hey, you've had all these very public congressional trials. I mean, we all saw that the congressional trial and the clip of them asking the Singaporean CEO of TikTok if he was a member of the Communist Party of China or whatever. So I feel like that that excuse doesn't hold up as well. And then, yeah, like they're, he just laid it out there. He said, you know, oh, no, no, no, don't worry. The issue isn't that we're caving to U.S. social media platforms, except that is exactly what's happening. Like, yeah, I don't know.

It feels, it's so strange and so patronizing. And I, I think, feel very similarly to a lot of these young Americans that he's addressing that this sounds like bullshit. And I think the reason why it sounds like bullshit is that we just don't know what he's referring to. It's classified, right? So, you know, they've cited national security concerns stemming from the app's Chinese ownership. specifically they have talked about like the possibility of the Chinese government like accessing data of American users or using the app and it's like very powerful algorithm to spread propaganda or influence elections and spread chaos, right? As far as I know, like this is a little bit out of my wheelhouse, as far as I know to us the American people, that is largely like theoretical like, oh, they could potentially, they could do this. It's not like we have a smoking gun of them doing that on like a wide scale.

I'm on in these classified briefings, so I have no idea. But members of Congress are referring to information that they say that they have seen and heard in the security briefings about the potential for TikTok to harm American interests. But we just don't know about any of that because the contents of these briefings are not public. So we're just being told TikTok, this app that you're using every day that many, many of these elected officials, Biden included, are using all the time. it is this massive security threat. Just trust us. I think the real issue is I think a lot of these Congress people are just upset that they're not getting the number of followers that they thought they would get on TikTok. That's my theory.

And that's understandable. You know what? I get it. I've been frustrated sometimes when I made a video that I put a lot of effort into and I wanted it to perform better. That's understandable. If that's your reason for wanting to ban TikTok, just say that. I think you'll get a lot more people on your side. Listen, I would be sympathetic.

I tried TikTok and TikTok for me was a flop. I am not a TikTok girly. It's just like I have to accept that about myself. So I would be, if they came out and said that, I would be, they would have my sympathy. I'd be like, oh, my TikToks never do numbers either. I get it. We all been there.

So there is some talk of the need for transparency into what these lawmakers are saying that like, we don't know. Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal and Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn are calling for TikTok briefings to be declassified. so that the government can, quote, better educate the public on the need for urgent action. We are deeply troubled by the information and concerns raised by the intelligence community in recent classified briefings to Congress. TikTok is a weapon in the hands of the Chinese government and poses an active risk to our

democratic institutions and national security, they wrote. Senators Blumenthal and Blackburn, that is the duo that also brought you the Kids Online Safety Act. Oh, there we go. Take, I mean, you know, I am very curious to see what, what, I, I, you know what, I think actually, yeah, if they, if they do release this information, if they, you show the public what is, what actually is the scary classified information that that is the reason they need a ban TikTok. But knowing them in their history, it's probably just like there were trans people on the app. Yes. And like, I think that, Joey, I think that you and I talked about this, Blackburn specifically earlier, in earlier iterations of the kids online. Safety Act was like pretty explicitly when I asked like, oh, what's your beef with the internet? Like, why do you want to have this? Why do you want to regulate it in this way? She was like, oh, you know, we were planning on using it to make sure that content about trans identity

doesn't reach youth. We want to keep youth from that kind of unsafe information. And then people were like, really? And then she was like, oh, no, no, I was misquoted. I was misquoted. But it's like a video. You really weren't misquoted. I saw you say it on a video with my eyes. Guys, it was out of context. That is really good. Like, I'm glad that you added that. And honestly, when it comes to something as expansive and impactful as, like, regulating the internet or regulating the social media apps that we use, which, by the way, I don't want to make it seem like I'm like, oh, platform should just be able to do whatever they want. Like, that is not how I feel.

However, it does just highlight that like people like Blackburn who have a really clear public record of how she feels and how she is going to use this kind of internet legislation and regulation to further marginalize and criminalize marginalized people. Like we're not making that up. She says that. It is concerning to me that these are the people who are being tasked with making changes and laws about how. we access or don't access the internet. Like that on its face is really troubling to me. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy,

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your podcast. And for more, follow Tim Slica Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. And we're back. So Biden assigned this legislation. What happens now? Well, probably for all of us and all of you listening, nothing really in the short term. So first of all, TikTok is not going anywhere for at least a couple of months. The countdown clock where they need to sell has started.

But like they have eight months to do to figure that out. So it's not like TikTok's not going to work on your phone right now. But even still, this probably is the beginning of what will be a complicated legal challenge. TikTok has already signaled that they intend to fight this legislation in the courts. TikTok's chief executive show Chu said, rest assured, we are not going anywhere. We are confident and we will keep fighting for your rights in the courts. Side note, it is really interesting to me how TikTok has framed this as like, we are fighting for your rights. Like I love TikTok.

I'm actually wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right now that I got from an event, which like is not because I'm in the bag for big TikTok, although if they wanted to pay me, no, I'm just kidding. No, I don't take money from social media platforms. But yet, I mean, nobody's made me a compelling offer. This sweatshirt is very nice, but it's not going to cut it. Yeah, I think it's interesting how they've been able to publicly frame this as like, oh, we're not by. for our like platform that we run and own and make money from. We're fighting for you and your rights. Like it's an interesting framing, one that I don't totally agree with, but I get why

they're, I get why they're framing it that way. Like when I was looking at the images from some of the in-person, like rallies in support of TikTok, TikTok had clearly given out signs for folks to hold that would say like, I'm one of the however many TikTok users there are in America who wants to my rights represented. Like they've really been able to frame this as like a grassroots. Like we're just fighting for your rights kind of thing. Like Airbnb, I feel like really set the playbook for how to, how to make it seem like, oh, this isn't like a big tech company advocating in this way. This is like just local grassroots mom and pop small businesses. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, Bridget. Sounds like you have some personal experience with the Airbnb's organizing. I do. I do. That is a conversation for another day, but I know quite a bit about it, actually. Yeah, no, it has been strange, though. I mean, I understand why they're doing it. It's a good, like, for lack of a better word, propaganda technique to get people to be on your side. And I mean, I don't, I don't fully agree with what they're saying, but at the same time, it is a First Amendment, you know, issue. And I, it is a, It is definitely, it's definitely, we're in a very strange moment. I mean, I don't know, we're walking around talking about what is happening kind of on a larger scale right now in the U.S. regarding freedom of speech and the fact that there have been massive crackdowns on peaceful protests and freedom of speech happening across the country on college campuses and, you know, beyond.

But it is this, yeah, it is a weird. situation and it is TikTok, you know, not necessarily. They don't have the best track record of honoring that freedom of speech they're claiming to be fighting for right now, but maybe they're turning a page. I don't know. So it does sound like that TikTok is going to be appealing this on First Amendment, kind of free speech grounds. According to The New York Times, the company is expected to argue that a forced sale of TikTok could violate its user's free speech rights because a new owner could potentially change the app's content policies and reshape what users are able to freely share and communicate about on the platform. TikTok actually already has some precedent for fighting bans in the courts using

exactly this logic. And the platform has actually already won similar First Amendment battles in the courts. Back when Trump was president, he tried to force a sale or a ban of the app in 2020, but federal judges blocked that effort because it would have had the effect of shutting down, quote, a platform for expressive activity. We talked about this on the show a while back, but y'all might recall that Montana tried to ban TikTok in the state last year because of the app's Chinese ownership, but a different federal judge ruled against that state law for similar reasons. So far, there's actually only been one state-level TikTok ban that survived a court challenge.

It was super narrow. It only applied to state employees in Texas, where the governor announced a ban of the app on state government devices and networks in 2022 because of the Chinese ownership and related data concerns. Professors at public universities challenged that ban in the court saying that it actually blocked them from being able to do research into the app, which actually, to me, makes a lot of sense. A federal judge upheld the state ban in December finding that it was reasonable restriction in light of Texas' concerns and that narrow scope only impacting state employee. So that was the only time that one of these bands was actually upheld in the court.

So there is like a strong track record for TikTok being able to successfully fight these bands in the courts. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember the Montana, when we talked about the Montana ban, that did not work. Like, and part of the reason it didn't work is like, it is like, surprise, surprise it's hard to like ban an app that people already have on their phones or you can then go to another state or have a VPN or whatever to download. It's really interesting because the Texas legislation is the only one that I'm like, okay, it is still ridiculous, but I get where they're coming from with that. Like, okay, yeah, sure. If it's a, the issue is like we're worried about the Chinese government spying on the U.S. Like, yeah, okay, if it's, if it's government employees,

like that I think is more or less reasonable. Again, I still don't agree with it because I think it is not coming from any, A, it's not coming from reality and then B, it's, it is still, I think, in my opinion, a freedom of speech infringement. But the fact that like, I feel like, and maybe this is me having like a like a rosy view of like the pre-Trump administration sort of conversation around this. But I feel like that is kind of would be the most extreme. in legislation you would see around this for a really long time. Like that would kind of be the what would be like the more conservative viewpoint for a while. And now it's just gone so far that it's like, no, we're just going to completely ban this app.

Yeah. That's actually what made me initially pretty convinced that we would see a federal TikTok ban in our, in 2024. Was because how many different states were banning TikTok from like government or public, like public university devices, almost like, oh, this is happening pretty swiftly. That seems to be like the, like the, there seems to be a pretty quick vibe shift around this happening. That's what kind of initially made me think like, oh, I think this might actually be something that we see.

Yeah. I think, and I think, again, like I said, I'm just, just because I don't think it's, it's, it's a reasonable legislation because, yeah, then that the element is when you're just saying government, you know, employees or property or whatever, that does also include, yeah, like public universities and a lot of things that aren't necessarily like the government government. Yeah, this is, it has been a weird road to get here and here we are. Yeah. And I think it gets even weirder when you ask the question of like, okay, so a government will be forcing a sale to a different owner that is not based in China. Is there a buyer?

Like, who would buy it? And the answer to that is like not. clear. TikTok has a pretty hefty price tag, so it's like not clear who could even afford it. You know, my initial thought was like, oh, Elon Musk. I feel like these guys don't really have money like they say. Like, they're a billionaire, but all your money is tied up in like lawsuits and shit. No, because my immediate reaction was also that too. I was like, oh no, it's going to happen again. And I was like, wait, he's still paying off his bills for Twitter. Like, no, no. We're good. I think they should just, we should like, like, they should just keep, like, bringing the price down. Like, you know, supply and demand, that whole thing.

I think, I think we can get a, a, there are no girls on the internet controlled TikTok by the end of the year. Oh, my God. Keep bringing the price down. That's my proposal version. I think we should purchase TikTok. Listeners, let's pool our money. Actually, I mean, it's.

Let's start to go fund me. Let's go. It's funny. You say this just yesterday. one of my favorite disinformation reporters, formerly of NBC, Ben Collins, announced that him and his buddies, this is going to sound like a joke, but it's not. They pulled their money and they bought The Onion. So that just happened. Something similar. Wait, really? Yes. I'm, I'm, I'm, hand to God, look it up. Ben Collins, formerly NBC disinformation reporter. They was announced

yesterday morning like, oh, Geo Media sold the onion. It's not clear. to who they sold it to. And I was like, oh, I've never heard of this media conglomerate or like this investor group. Wonder who that is. Later that evening, Ben Collins was like, yeah, it was me and my friends. We got together and pulled our money. So now I'm the CEO of the Onion. We're bringing it back. We're giving, we're rehiring everybody. We're allowing the staff to control it. To tune in everybody. So that was like a rare piece of like in my book, good media news. Like good people pulling, pulling their money and actually buying a cool thing. Like, it can happen.

It could happen. I misled to you for a second. I thought you meant like, like he was doing disinformation. Oh, no, no. He's a reporter. Yeah. Oh, no.

Oh, my God. Can you imagine that? Like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. If you're a, if you're like a bad actor who spreads disinformation and you buy a well-known satire site, like the possibilities are endless. That's how we got.

X. So. It's so true. Like literally it was because of it like the Babylon B getting banned or whatever. Oh my God. Yeah. No, that's wow. So yeah.

We could Tengote. We could own TikTok. Oh. On subscribers. You guys get a share of the. I watch Succession. I know how this stuff works. Yeah.

We could do it. You know, we're, we're, we're, listen, if Elon Musk could do it, Joey, you and I could certainly do it. We could run, we could run TikTok. I think we'd do really good. We would definitely do better than Elon Musk. Oh, I have no doubt, no doubt. So probably not Elon Musk buying TikTok. A big American tech company like Meta or Google, they might have the money to afford the like hefty price tag, but they probably would not be able to purchase it because of antitrust concerns. Right now, Meta is correct. fighting a federal trade commission lawsuit that alleges that its purchase of WhatsApp and

Instagram violated U.S. antitrust law. So the FTC is like actively seeking to break that company up. So I don't think that Zuckerberg and Meta are going to like pile on there right now. Back in 2020, there had been some lofty talks of maybe Microsoft with some involvement from the retailer Walmart partnering to buy TikTok. This was back when Donald Trump was pushing for a sale. But it sounds like those conversations, like, didn't really go anywhere. It could be a private equity firm or a group of investors. Former Trump administration treasury secretary, Stephen Mnuchin said that he wanted to put a group of investors together to buy it.

Like, what a nightmare that would be like a Trumper owning TikTok, Elon Musk owning Twitter, Zuckerberg owning Facebook. Like, like our, oh, I don't even want to think about that. That would be. Guys, Tumblr. still out there. Yeah. Buy Tumblr.

They're like nobody is like like I want someone to like buy one like buy Zanga bring that back right like like like like Zig instead of yeah, Zing. Well everybody's talking about these big platforms. Who's buying up like the smaller platforms to bring those back? Remember Bisco? What happened to that? I remember that was one of the first like aesthetics that was ever on my radar like the Visco girl aesthetic?

Yeah, yeah. R-IP-Visco girl. R-IP-Visco girl. What happened to Visco girl? Yeah, she had her moment. She had her time. So the entire thing is just very messy and very complicated, especially thinking through what it would actually look like logistically for TikTok

to divest from Bight Dance. There was just a recent report in the Financial Times that spoke to two dozen current and former employees that said that TikTok has only become more deep interwoven with bite dance as tensions over the app's ownership have escalated. The legislation that Biden signed prohibits any connection between TikTok and Bite Dance after a sale. Yet, TikTok employees use BiteDance software in their communications. And the company's employees are global with executives in Singapore, Dublin, Los Angeles, Mountain View, California, and elsewhere. So it's unclear if ByteDance would actually even consider selling TikTok's entire global footprint or just its U.S.-based

operations where it has about 7,000 employees, like what it would actually logistically look like for BightDance to just sort of tether its U.S.-based operations for TikTok, it's like unclear, and it seems like it would be pretty complicated. And because a big source of concern is specifically TikTok's algorithm that controls and dictates what American audiences see, there was some talk of TikTok maybe trying to move forward in the U.S. with a version of TikTok that is not controlled by an algorithm to see if that changes things. But that would also be pretty complicated. The app's recommendation algorithm, which figures out what users like and serves up content, is really a key part of TikTok. It's kind of

like what makes TikTok TikTok TikTok. But Chinese engineers work on that algorithm, which Bythdance own. So untethering all of that to move forward in the U.S. might be kind of tricky. I also read yesterday that ByteDance said that they would actually prefer to shut TikTok down in the U.S. rather than sell it if the Chinese company exhausts all legal options to fight legislation to ban the platform. So they would just be like, oh, we would rather just like not operate in the U.S., shut it down there and keep going. And honestly, like, you might be thinking like, oh, that would be a bad financial move, but I believe that that's only 25% of their revenue. Like, I don't think that TikTok is a huge part of the, a bite dance entire portfolio. Yeah. And they're also, I mean, not to diminish the like buying

power of the U.S. and how, like, important that is on a kind of economic scale, but also, like, there are many other countries out there that probably would continue to use TikTok, and I don't, I don't know. I feel like they're going to be fine. Yeah, I feel, I feel exactly the same way. And, you know, something that you were saying earlier is that, you know, Mark Warner and his statement was like, oh, well, this is, I don't want people to cynically think we're just, like, in the bag for big tech. But this is a big win for American big tech companies. I, always bristle at the framing of this as like a business story when it's so much more. But it does need to be said that Facebook has been trying to destroy TikTok for kind of a while. Folks might

recall that Facebook reportedly tried to buy TikTok's predecessor, the lip syncing app musically back in 2016, but ByteDance ended up acquiring it instead and that became TikTok. So they tried to buy it, didn't work. When that didn't work, Facebook did that thing that tech companies do, which is like, I will create a similar but less good version of my competitor. So in 2020, Facebook launches Reels, which was like, which is, you know, was like that short form video app. For a while, it was essentially just like identical to TikTok, only the content that you would see there was like a couple weeks old. Like my friends who didn't have TikTok, they'd always be like, oh, look at this reel I saw. It would be like the thing that, the thing that was like hot on TikTok like a week ago.

You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. I like a group channel Instagram with a couple of my friends that are all lovely And this is not a dig at them But they will often send videos And I'm like I saw it that a month ago

But thank you for sharing it again Joey thinks your reels are whack I'm sorry I'm calling you Behind the Times or whatever But nobody responds to my TikTok DMs So that's what you got So Reels has a

grown pretty steadily, thanks to its aggressive integration with Instagram. Like, when you scroll Instagram, you're basically just like getting served real. So they definitely have done some trickery there to like force us all to consume reels, whether we want to or not, whether it's against our will or or not. TikTok has maintained its hold on younger users while also making inroads with adults. For a long time, people talked about TikTok as like, oh, the dancing app for kids. That was never even really true even back then. But like, it is certainly not true now. The majority of people on TikTok, it's young people and it's like people in their 30s. And so it's this idea that it's like just an app that's popular with kids is just not true. Right. Also, again, I'm Gen Z and I'm in

my 20s. Like there are plenty of people that are Gen Z that are like young adults now. Yeah. And also use TikTok. Absolutely. So we did a podcast episode about this with TikTok. researcher Abby Richards. But basically, Facebook's big thing here was really successfully demonizing TikTok. Mark Zuckerberg talked about TikTok in a speech he made at Georgetown University in 2019, he said, while our services like WhatsApp are used by protesters and activists everywhere due to strong encryption and privacy protections on TikTok, the Chinese app growing quickly around the world, mentions of these protests are censored, even in the U.S. at the internet we want, which first of all, if you are a protester,

you're probably using Signal. And this is me, like, again, I'm not being paid by Signal. If you're a protester or an activist, you Signal, don't use WhatsApp. I don't know anybody that is like, like, like, out, like a activist, like really, really out there, activist, like, that uses WhatsApp to talk about, like, organizing. Also, yeah, like, wow, a famous, famous supporter of protesters and activists everywhere. Mark Zuckerberg. Yes. Friend to the activist. Friend to the protester. Mark Zuckerberg.

Freedom of speech advocate. I what? That it, yeah, that's ridiculous. And of course, it's not like a platform like Facebook or threads would ever suppress content about politics or protest or social movements. Like, they would never like, what do? Yeah. There definitely was an autographing going around Instagram that I reposted. A lot of my friends reposted about how to go into your settings and turn off the automatic. thing that like limited political quote unquote political content on everybody's you know for you page or or whatever it's called on on instagram stories or whatever uh that just coincidentally it's happening now and absolutely has nothing to do with uh anything happening uh in real life in and in and in college campuses right now and you know these protesters that mark zuckerberg is like best friends with they definitely definitely

this has nothing to do with that. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, we talked about this on the show before, but the Washington Post in 2022 reported that Facebook had been paying this major Republican consulting firm called Targeted Victory to push local stories and op-eds that really painted TikTok as this danger to society and a danger to young people specifically. They talked about, like, all of these dangerous viral TikTok trends, many of which happened to actually have started or been spread on Facebook. So it was just this tactic to be like, oh, TikTok is so dangerous when the things that they were calling out, Facebook either also spread or were the originators of. A lot of these narratives really caught on with lawmakers who then raised them in congressional hearings. There was also this piece in

politico about how TikTok kind of misplayed the Washington lobbyist game, counting on their large number of users to prevent Congress from actually taking action while not meaningfully responding to these national security concerns that lawmakers are bringing up until it was kind of too late. I do think that TikTok, because so many people use it and because people feel strongly about it, I think that they really relied on that, like, oh, that alone is going to be enough to defend us from these claims and to keep a strong footing in the United States. I think they perhaps misplayed their hand there. more after a quick break.

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So I want to talk about something that you've brought up, which is like what I actually think is going. on here. So we've talked a ton on the podcast about how I think that lawmakers, like, want to look tough on big tech while also remaining very cozy financially with American big tech companies. I also think that they want to look tough on China. And so this is sort of like a two birds, one stone kind of thing. But I also think that increasingly, this is really about young people and support for Palestine. So the Washington Post has a really interesting piece that we'll put in the show notes, basically breaking this down. They write, When congressional Republicans this month repeated their long-running calls for a nationwide ban on TikTok,

they highlighted a data point that they said was proof of the app's sinister underpinnings. The number of TikTok videos with hashtag Free Palestine is dramatically higher than those with hashtag stand with Israel. The gap, they said, offered evidence that the app owned by Chinese tech giant bite dance was being used to boost propaganda and brainwash American viewers. So, like, I think that's really kind of a big piece of this, why we are seeing this anti-Tick-Tick-Tock legislation being bolstered particularly right now. But as that Washington Post piece points out, Facebook and Instagram, TikTok's U.S.-based rivals, show a remarkably similar gap. On Facebook, the free Palestine hashtag is found on more than 11 million posts, 39 times more than those with hashtag stand with Israel. On Instagram, the pro-Palestinian hashtag is found on 6 million posts 26 times more than the pro-Israel hashtag. So I think that what's going on here is that I think lawmakers are seeing people being supportive of Palestine, particularly young people.

And they're like, what explains this? It has to be TikTok. It has to be foreign meddling or manipulation. It has to be like the Chinese government sewing chaos and confusion and manipulation with our youth. And I really think that is a big part of why we are seeing these renewed efforts to ban the app. Exactly. Yeah. I think talking about this too, and this is kind of, this has been an ongoing conversation is that there, there have like the, the political establishment and kind of like the powers that be for a while have been very shocked by this fact that, quote unquote, all of a sudden, I'm not, I don't think that's actually the case, but like all of a sudden.

all of these young people are being a little bit more skeptical about the kind of like established narrative of what is happening in Palestine and what's happening in Gaza. And I think, you know, I think a lot of politicians and a lot of these officials are, have been sort of surprised and taken aback by the protest. I, again, I don't think they should be because I think like, A, if you look at history, there is a, like a lot of people, especially with the protests happening right now have brought up like Kent State and brought up a lot of the Vietnam protests and sort of the similarities. It's like there isn't, it's not like there isn't a precedent

for this. And then also like, from their perspective, it's like, oh, it's the, these apps that are doing propaganda. But it's like, no, a lot of what is actually happening is just that there are videos of what's happening on the ground in Gaza that are going around social media. are, you know, families that are trapped. There are people that are on the ground there. There are reporters that are on the ground there that are able to get that information to a wider audience because of social media and are able to, you know, there are other kind of options other than just sort of these legacy media companies

that are providing information about what's happening. And that is making a lot of people question the sort of narrative that they've been told about the situation. That is making a lot of people want to look more into these. and I think for a lot of people like the patterns are sort of clicking it is sort of like making sense that like hey you know this isn't this isn't like a new thing this is like you know I don't know I was growing up in sort of like the aftermath of the like Iraq and Afghanistan wars and like it's interesting like people keep pointing to Vietnam but like that was really not that long ago like

you know the the Iraq war going into the Iraq war over a like complete lie was not that long ago. Like, people remember that. People are responding to that. Young people remember that. Because, like, again, like myself, a lot of us, like, grew up in the aftermath of that. I will say, I think a lot of, this argument drives me insane. Like, I'm not surprised by it, because I do think it is, like, the easiest route for a lot of these politicians to go is just the, like, oh, it's just, it's the kids that are wrong or they don't, they're just, you know, brainwashed. there's no way that these young people that are studying at universities and are paying attention to what's happening in the news and are putting together, you know, the puzzle pieces of like,

hey, what we're seeing isn't new. A lot of this has happened before and has happened repeatedly in different contexts. Like, there's kind of this idea that like, oh, they don't, they don't understand anything. They just don't get it. They must be being brainwashed. That's the only explanation because if there's any, like, any other explanation would force me to acknowledge the fact that, like, yeah, a lot of this is very fucked up and a lot of this is, like, you know, like, it's easier to kind of be patronizing to people than it is to give them credit for how smart and thoughtful people actually can be and the fact that, you know, what is happening right now is very, very clearly wrong and fucked up and people are not happy about. it. And I think, yeah, it's easier to say, like, oh, well, they're just being brainwashed. Let's stick with the status quo than it is to actually want to make any change. Yeah. And I think, like, that, like, that's why that statement from Mark Warner hit me so weird. Because it's like, ultimately, I think that you're exactly right. These, these arguments, to me,

sound very limiting to young people. They sound very condescending to young people. It makes it seem like young people are not smart enough or with it enough to look around at what's going on and make an assessment when they absolutely are. It just feels very callous to me. And I think like given that we're in an election year and we're hearing lots of elected officials and politicians who want your vote, like signaling like, oh yeah, we want the youth vote. It's like they're saying we want y'all's vote, but we don't think you're smart enough to understand what's going on in the world. And we're also not going to listen. Exactly. Like, I mean, a lot of people have pointed out are like, calling for a ceasefire is the bare minimum.

And the Biden administration just finally, like, made a statement kind of calling for a ceasefire like a couple of weeks ago, right? Like, it's, I think, like, this is, they want, they talk a lot of talk about how important the youth vote is or how important, like, marginalized groups are or whatever to this election. And then they're doing nothing to actually address what people are asking for and what people are. And like, yeah, no, like, I'm sorry if you, if you are actively suppressing the, the freedom of speech of the group that you are trying to get to vote for you and then you're like to the point where you are sending like the cops to go mass arrest people for peacefully protesting, like, like, either you're just stupid and short-sighted or like, like, you want to lose. Like, I don't know what to tell you at that point.

Yeah. And something else that you said is that this idea that. that, oh, well, certainly this is coming from manipulation via TikTok, like, this is, young people are feeling this way all of a sudden. And that's just not true. Young Americans have consistently shown support for Palestinians in Pew Research surveys, including in a poll in 2014, four years before TikTok ever launched in the United States. And so this idea that like, oh, it's just TikTok manipulating young people with their algorithm, how do you have to account for the fact that younger people have consistently shown support for Palestinians, even before TikTok

was ever a thing here. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I don't, like, I will say, as somebody who was in college before TikTok really took off, but like, kind of, kind of like literally like right before that time, like this, it wasn't like this, again, it wasn't like this appeared out of nowhere. These were conversations that were happening. these were like there were efforts to for the camp the college that I went to there were a lot of

major efforts to get them to divest from you know fossil fuel companies and also like a lot of these companies that were you know making weapons that were like you know actively do it the companies that are that are doing the stuff that is now being you know broad like now it now I think has reached a wider audience like that it's again it's it's not like it came out of nowhere and I think anybody that is like paid attention to the news or to current events or to like contemporary like politics or like global politics could tell you that and could tell you that none of this is like new and none of this is just like appearing out of nowhere but it you know it's a very convenient narrative for the people that want to keep up the status quo that this is just popped out of

nowhere and it's TikTok's fault clearly. Yeah. And I think it really, I mean, I was there for a lot of that. I got my start as somebody who was like a leftist with campus organizing. Like that was like, like I was in high school when I was in, I think 10th grade when 9-11 happened. And anti-war organizing was just like that, like that's when that became a thing for me. And so it, I was in high school when all that was popping off. And I was just started, like, it was like my, my put up sort of political or, like, radical consciousness awakening. And I was like the exact right age for it.

I will not sit here and tell you that I had the perfect practice that everything I ever did was like, well thought out, smart, like logical, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I was 19. And I was. And 19, you weren't like a perfect political, like, I don't know. Yeah, it was 19 and I was high all the time. And I guess I say that to say like, so for me, it was anti-war organizing. It was School of the Americas Watch organizing.

Oh, my God. Yes, that was a little bit of, yeah, that was a big part of. What an institution. I am morbidly fascinated by the School of the Americas and all the very, very terrible. It is. Somebody needs to do a podcast on it because it is wild. I think they're, yeah, yeah. I think they did a, there was a, there was a,

Hide the Bastards episode about School of the Americas in particular. That was one of the things that got me on some research spiral about it. Nice plug for our podcast cousins over at Cool Zone. But yeah, I say this to say that it's hard for me to look at what's happening right now on college campuses and also look at the conversation happening around TikTok and not be really concerned. Like I, young people especially need to be able to express themselves politically and to have places where they can learn about their political selves and like express that. And like, I would not be who I am today if I did not have that space to figure it out and to figure out what that looks like.

Yeah. I also want to add because I think Bridget, I think we've had like very similar experiences with this. And I something that I know has come up. And I'm not going to say what this group is because I don't want to give them. any more attention. But there is a group that targets and docks is students and university faculty that do, that support Palestine or support or they have a very broad definition of what being, quote unquote, anti-Israel or in their words, like, anti-Semitic is. I like literally had a Jewish history professor who like called herself a Zionist,

was a liberal Zionist and was targeted by this group. But I know this was something that this particular organization, like I had a couple of like older people in my life that recently found out about them just because of some like, you know, obviously they've been doing a lot of toxic lately. But I remember having a conversation with my dad actually about this and he was like so shocked that this was happening. And he was like, this is awful. Like I can't believe that like they're targeting students. And I was like, yeah, no, like I have a lot of friends that were doxed by them when we were like 19. Like we were like we were still teenagers like that was and like I think like you were saying like I think you know obviously I like I support the protesters. I'm standing here and I agree with the protesters. Even if you don't, you should be supporting people's like ability to use college as an experience to like explore different political ideas and realities and learn about there's always this big you know like the right loves to throw a thing. over like oh like these like liberal campuses are in a in a bubble and they don't know the real world like

no no no actually the point of college a lot of times is to meet people that have different experiences than you and to like form these different and learn about these different ideas and form these different ideas and like we should not be at a place where simply trying to learn about other issues or trying to learn about different perspectives or whatever at like if that's what you're doing or like advocating for causes you care about like that should not be reason to who we doxed, like, before you could even legally drink. Like, that is that, that's not something that should be happening. Yes. And, like, I mean, like, I, we have a, we're, I'm in the works on a whole episode about this.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but it is how I feel. Having adults who might not even have a real connection to university campuses saying things like, oh, if a college freshman says XYZ thing that is supportive of Palestine, we should put their name and their information on a truck and drive it around their community and make sure that nobody ever hires them for the rest of their life. Who is that helping? Like, like, I think that it's an environment that like the conversation around the campus protests that are happening right now, it's just really scary to me. I guess I'll just put it that way. It's really scary. I think none of this is new. is like a lot of what we're talking about.

I think that the advent of social media and the fact that like, obviously, like, as we're talking about, there are a lot of positives and we're, you know, having this conversation to say that the TikTok ban is not going to be a good solution to all of what's happening. Like, there are a lot of positives of social media, but I do think there is also a lot of negatives

in the fact that because it is so much more visible, the reaction is going to be so much stronger and there is going to be, and yeah, yeah, and I, again, I 100% agree with, you and like like nobody a what these students are advocating for is they're advocating for peace they're advocating for like the bare minimum like stop the fucking violence like there's so many so many people have died this is insane and but regardless of what is happening regardless of what they're fucking protesting regardless of what is being spoken about nobody should be yeah nobody should be docks

Nobody should have their life potentially ruined or, like, attempted to be ruined because of something they said when they were 19 or 20 or whatever. Exactly. And folding it into the TikTok conversation, if young people are not able to express themselves politically on their college campuses at college, and then the digital spaces where they would do that, Twitter, you can't really do that effectively right now. If TikTok is banned, I just worry that we are losing both IRS. and digitally, places where people, particularly young people, are able to safely show up to express their political beliefs, understand their political beliefs, refine and sharpen their political beliefs. And that's not good. Like, I really see these two things as related, the fact that we have all of this suppression and crackdown on campus protest, while also the places and spaces where you would digitally be able to show up and do that are also being undermined. I just, it's, it just is,

I can't help but see those two things as happening together. Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of the voices that are talking about this moment in time, I think are like really leading with a lot of anxiety and sort of like, I don't want to say concern trolling, but like a lot of anxiety around youth and social media and like youth are miserable. They're supporting Palestine because they're on their phones, which are making them miserable. I just, I just feel like we're not having good substantive conversations rising to the top about what. going on in this very particular moment in time. Yeah, actually, I'll, off of that point, not to sound conspiratorial or whatever, but I think it's interesting. There were a lot of, like, articles and stuff that were coming out that I, but I do think we're very valid. I do think

make a good point, but they're about this fact, but like, and again, as somebody who is kind of like the beginning of Gen Z, I lived through a lot of this, but it was like all of these young people are sort of beginning to, you know, question whether having iPhones all the time or having smartphones all the time is actually good for us. Or like having like growing up with this access to the internet and social media from such a young age was a good thing. Like maybe it was actually sort of harmful. And now we're seeing this next generation go through it. And, you know, there were all, there were a lot of articles that were coming out about like, here's this group of like 20 somethings that have decided to get like Nokia phones instead of like, yeah, yeah,

yeah. And like all of that. And I know like I think that's great. And I totally agree. And I will say like again, as somebody who spends a lot of time online and a lot of time the internet, like I definitely, I need to detach a lot. And I see a lot of the negatives too. But at the same time, it's like, I still believe like, and I mean, I get like, this is a lot of the philosophy of the show is like the internet is a thing that exists, the thing that it is a tool. It can be a tool for bad, awful things.

It could also be a tool for organizing and activism and, you know, changing the world to be a, or trying to make the world a better place. Like, it can be, and it also can be a place for community. It can be, like, I have, I have found a lot of communities. community and online spaces. I think like just just inherently demonizing the idea of like the internet and social media and whatever part of that is what gets us to things like this where then it's like but then we can't even look at the fact that no like social media in this case like again

if we're talking about like the protest happening for Palestine right now social media has been a really really important tool for organizing and for getting information out there. It hasn't been the only thing that it's been important. there are also like a lot of other you know actions that need to be done and things that need to be done and whatever but you know like I'm not saying that just posting a bunch of graphics on your Instagram is like you know peak activism or whatever but also it is like it has been a very important tool of getting information out there and getting and helping to organize these protests and I think if we if we forget that that's just going to end up hurting all of us and I think that's kind of the direction we're going with this legislation that's That's scary. And I think it just adds to this feeling of just loss of faith in democracy and institutions. And I think that like, particularly right now, that like people are feeling so checked out from democracy that I just don't, I don't think we need it. I don't think that people need any other reason to be even more disengaged and checked out. V. Spear from Under the Desk News to we've had on the show before. You could think of V, they're kind of like the Walter Cronkite of TikTok. They made it really, yeah, like V is everywhere.

V made a really interesting point. They said, the consequence is not that TikTok gets banned. It's that the American public loses faith even more in the institution of government than they already have. And I think that really, for me, like sums up how I think a lot of folks are feeling. Like I've seen people say things like, oh, they'll ban TikTok before they ban guns. Or just like how weird it is to be having these conversations. Like seeing conversations where it's like, how close to death does someone who is pregnant have to be

before their doctor can abort their non-viable pregnancy? It just feels wrong when we have all of these other really huge issues happening to be like, oh, and then they're going to ban TikTok. Like that's what they're doing. Like I could understand how somebody watching this moment in time. It's just like, that's it. I have lost what faith I had in the institution of government because of this moment.

Like I understand the way that people are responding in this moment. Yeah. And I mean, like I said before, I think for all the hand-wringing, the Biden administration is doing right now or the Democratic Party is doing about, like, oh, my God, like, we're losing young people or not having young people engaging or we're losing the sort of like loyalty, quote unquote, of like all these marginalized groups that, you know, previously would have been a big part of our, our, voter base, for all the hand-wringing and for all the complaining about that,

they're not doing anything to motivate people to want to support them. And they're not doing anything to actually show that, yeah, like, that we live in a functioning democracy. Like, this is a, like, this is very clearly a sign that that is not what's happening, but this is not a, this, this is an example of democracy, not functional. the way that it is supposed to. And I think like you can't be having that sort of like moral high ground or yeah, like hand-wringing about it. If then you're not actually going to put in the work to, to make these systems work the way that you claim that they are supposed to work.

Exactly. And then folding in the breakdown of these tools that have been used to allow people who are marginalized to build platforms and express themselves and build political power, you know, like if there's no TikTok and there's no real Twitter and meta is deprioritizing political and social issues content on their platforms, where will we get the next Black Lives Matter? Where will we get the next Me Too? How will we like build power and mobilize? Like I am a person who believes that marginalized people will always find a way. Like we'll always make a way out of no way. That is what we do. But I just don't want to get into this place where we have to keep rebuilding. We have to keep building new platforms. One platform, one platform, one. We're going to be able to. goes poof. And so we have to spend all of this energy and time. Our resources that we know are not infinite. They're finite rebuilding and redoing this. Like it just, after a while, it gets really tired and like people get burned out. And I just think like, yeah, we're just in this very particular moment that I really see a lot of those, a lot of those chickens coming home to roost. And this is why I think we need to revive Tumblr and we all need to go back to Tumblr and start using Tumblr again.

but although that's not also not a very functional website. This is why there are no girls on the internet community needs to band together and buy TikTok. And buy TikTok. Exactly. Support our GoFund me. I'll send the link around for folks to donate and we'll get a Google doc going. I'm like your organizer friend who's like as soon as the idea is floated like, I will circulate the Google Doc. So we'll get, we'll get our content moderation policies together in that Google buck.

Joey, thank you so much for being here. This was, like, when this news came down, I was like, I cannot wait to find out with Joey things. You're my, like, TikTok correspondent. In a lot of ways. Where can folks keep up with you? You can find me on Twitter or Instagram at Pat Not Pratt. That's P-A-T-N-O-T-P-R-A-T-T. I also want to give a shout out to if you like listening to there are no girls on the internet or any other of our IHeart media podcast and you want to support the fantastic producers that work super hard on those shows.

You should check out the IHeart podcast union socials. You can find us on Twitter and hopefully by the time this episode drops also on Instagram at IHeart. pod union that's yeah i heart POD union hopefully you can find it you'll figure it out you'll figure it out you'll figure it out I'm not going to tell you guys my TikTok

but if you find it come say hi I don't know it's a lot of me like talking about like whatever piece of media I've hyper fixated on for like a couple month span so I don't know if you want to yeah right now it's been like DC comics. So if anybody is interested, you're welcome to try to find that, but I will not be telling you what my, my username is. I could see you having a podcast that's just called like Joey's

recent hyperfixations. I heard if you want to green light that right now. Let's make it happen. I mean, like that's what I, oh yeah, and that I will, that that's kind of been my repertoire on stuff mom never told you. Another show that I am occasionally on is usually. been, hey, there's this thing that I just like have been obsessed with lately. Can I come talk about it? But I will be having an episode coming out on Smitty or on

Stuffbom, never told you soon about the Swifties and some of the darker side of online fandom. Don't have a set date for that, but I will update you guys when I do. I cannot wait.

You'll be here. When that episode drops, you will we'll be discussing it. We didn't have a whole like conversation about this. Please. We didn't do like a roundtable. I was, yeah. Like a Swifty roundtable? A Swifty roundtable.

I feel like I like I'm not I'm not a Swifty. I mean, you know this about me. I've gone from like not loving Taylor Swift to being like, oh actually I, I'm neutral on her to now being like, I don't know anything about her music. But like I would like to be a Swifty and include me in your community, people. My thoughts on Taylor Swift are, I love her music. I grew up listening to her music. She has been one of my top artists on Spotify for like forever. The fandom concerns me a lot.

But I do think she herself, I understand a lot of the criticism and I support. I don't, I think there's a lot of her as a figure is an interesting person. I try to keep her separate from the music. That's my keeping the art separate from the artist, I think. To Joachian is Taylor Swift. But yeah, I don't know. The latest thing is a bunch of Swifties are mad at me because I said that one of the lines and one of her most recent songs

sounded kind of dumb. And I apparently don't understand how metaphors work. What's the consensus in the comments section. But, yeah. Well, that's a great teaser. for swiftly convos to come. Joey, thank you for being here. Of course. Thanks for having me, Bridgett. And thanks to all of you for listening. I will see you on the internet. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our merch store at tangoity.com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing

in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangooty.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangooty.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and unbossed creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smyl and friends.

me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most. most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet, lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network

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