There Are No Girls on the Internet - Travis Scott partnered with BetterHelp after the Astroworld tragedy. Therapy Den’s Jeff Guenther explains why it might not be a good thing.

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

After the tragedy at Travis Scott’s Astroworld festival that left 10 dead and hundreds injured and traumatized, the rapper announced a “partnership” to provide a free month of therapy through the app BetterHelp, which is basically the Tinder of therapy. Jeff Guenthr, creator of Therapy Den, has been using his platform on TikTok to shed light on BetterHelp’s practices when it comes to data privacy and the way therapists are treated. Jeff joins Bridget and producer Dr. Michael Amato to talk though why this “partnership” feels so wrong in the wake of the tragedy. Check out Therapy Den: https://www.therapyden.com/Jeff’s therapy TikToks get millions of views: https://www.tiktok.com/@therapyden/video/7007091547917372677?lang=enAstroworld Festival: How to Help Those Impacted by the Tragedy: https://www.gofundme.com/c/act/astroworld-festival-fundraisers Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast. and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations

about what happens when the brain goes off course. Listen to Intercosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are no girls on the internet as a production of IHeart Radio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, And this is there are no girls on the internet. Ten people died, including three children, and hundreds more were injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astro World Music Festival in Houston, Texas.

First-hand video footage on social media shows young people pleading with crew members to stop the performance because people in the crowd were unresponsive. But authorities say Travis Scott continued to perform for 37 minutes after Houston police and firefighters were called to what had been deemed a mass casualty event. Travis Scott even brought out rapper Drake for a guest appearance as many in the crowd screamed for help. It's not clear if Travis Scott knew the severity of the situation. But Scott does have a history of inciting crowds into dangerous behavior at his concerts. He's even faced charges for it at past concerts. And Live Nation, the company behind AstroWorld,

has a long history of safety violations. Now, the footage coming out of the event is horrifying. And because of Travis Scott's fan base, this was happening to very young people. kids. I was getting winded. I was using all the energy I had left in me, and I came to the point where I was accepting my death. In a statement, Travis Scott says he didn't know people had died until after he'd left the stage. He also announced what he called a partnership with the therapy app BetterHelp to provide a free month of therapy to those impacted by the tragedy, which on its face may sound great,

but BetterHelp has also been called out for its murky policies regarding how they use the data of clients and how they treat mental health services in general. Not to be clear, I am not an expert on digital health services, but Dr. Michael Amato, our show's producer and chief science officer, is. Michael is a psychologist who does research on digital health interventions, and he leads a data team that supports digital products which has helped hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike and I sat down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who runs therapy den, a resource to match people with diverse therapists who uses his platform on TikTok to warn people that apps like BetterHelp might not be as good as they seem. I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor. So Jeff, you run a resource

called The Therapy Den. How did this resource come to be? Yeah. So I've been a therapist of practicing therapists since 2005. I started a local therapist directory in Portland. That's where I live. And the Portland Therapist Directory grew, and I learned about what therapists are wanting and what clients are wanting when they're looking for a therapist. Then back, like, three or four years ago, I used all that knowledge to launch Therapyden.com, and it was sort of like meant to counter another huge therapist directory, Psychology Today. Psychology Today, you might be aware of, like, their magazine. You'll find Psychology Today's magazines, like, in all of the therapist.

waiting rooms. One of the things I don't like about their magazine is that basically over the like many, many decades that they've been producing their magazine, they primarily only have very good looking people on the cover, very skinny women that are predominantly white. So there's no diversity on their magazine cover. And that transfers over to their therapist directory, which is sort of like always ranking is number one on Google. So they, you can't go to psychology today and find a therapist that is competently trained in racial justice or that is competently trained in treating transgender people or for the longest time you can search therapist by gender and they only had male and female gender.

So there was like, I made therapy then directory to kind of like, challenge them and force them or encourage them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly kind of evolving. I don't think that they totally meet the needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it and I'm happy about that. So Therapy Dunn was sort of like, all right, I'm going to try to create this disruptive force in the therapist directory field, which like isn't very big. And so that was the main agenda.

And then we can get into it. But back in 2015, when, like, better help and talk space started to become a thing, I was like, oh, okay. Like, they're somebody I need to target as well. I know when I was first looking for a therapist a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a black woman. And that's partially because I had heard from my black girlfriends of these awful experiences of having to spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white therapist about things like systemic racism. And I knew that I didn't want to do that.

But finding a black woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. It was like finding a needle in a haystack. Yeah, exactly. That isn't how therapy should be. Like, you should not be spending time that you're paying for to educate your client or educate your therapist on who you are, your culture, your background, the language that you use, where you're coming from, you know, your religion and your ethnicity. So that's why therapy done was created so that we can, like, create, like, a ton of filters

so that you can figure out how you can find a therapist that already matches with you in lots of different ways. And also, I've taken a stance on, like, here are a ton of different questions that clients should be asking their therapist in the first session. If you're black and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you need to ask that therapist, like,

what makes you, how can you competently treat me? What do you know about my ethnicity? How do you feel if I'm going to talk about how racist white people are? What do you think about, you know, Black Lives Matters and like all protests? And like, there's just like hundreds of like questions that you could ask your therapist to make sure that they're a good fit for you. And I don't think that a lot of clients know that they can like interview their therapist on that first session and ask that therapist, tell me like the specific training that you've

received. Talk to me about like the supervisors and the consultation. groups that you're in so that I know that you can competently treat me. So that's a whole thing. Yeah, I love that you're giving clients and just people, like, empowering them with a language and tools to advocate for themselves. I love that. So you talked about your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become ubiquitous in the last few years, things like BetterHelp and Talkspace. You know, when I first heard about these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way for folks to access my therapist. But so many therapists I've heard from do not

like these apps. Can you tell me why that is? Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right. The accessibility that these apps have like tapped into, it is so incredibly difficult. And I wish it wasn't. It's a systemic issue. But it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just like find a therapist. It's a good match for them. There's a ton of searching that you have to do. There's confusing insurance that you have to like wade through. It can be expensive. There's like a ton of roadblocks. So many therapists are booked, especially because everybody in the fucking world decided to get therapy at the same goddamn time, which is totally fine.

I get it. I understand. I love that you're getting therapy. But therapists are so busy. So you're just like, even if you find a therapist who's a good match, it's incredibly frustrating because they might not have any openings. But then BetterHelp, Talk Space, Cerebral, other apps like that have come along and they're just like, hey, click a button. We are the Uber of Therapy. Download the app, click this button, check the terms of service.

Don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways. And we will set you up with a therapist. Just any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know. We hope so. Maybe.

But like they've tapped into the accessibility part where it's just like it's so understandable. like people are getting so frustrated. So, of course, they're going to go to these apps, especially like younger people that are used to doing that. Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did identify a true need that exists out there of it's difficult to find a therapist. And we talk a lot on this show about bad things that the Internet and tech bring to us. But I was talking with Bridget the other day,

and one of the things she mentioned was how her favorite stories are about the great thing that the internet does to like bring people together or help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that they're looking for and and it really seems like they sort of zeroed in on that and it is a real need that they've addressed it is it's a real need and on the platforms there are actually amazing therapists like my beef is not with the therapists that are contracted to like provide therapy. They are like trained to, you know, and licensed and they're great. So yeah, they tap into a need and somebody needed to do it. And it's because like, because therapists in private practice cannot all get their shit together. We're all running our own little individual

small businesses. So we can't all come together and like figure out how to solve this problem. therapist that being to come together. It's just like so many layers of everything that needs to come together in order to fix this. So these tech companies, which are super savvy, they're the ones that did it. So, Bravo. I hate you. You compared these apps to Uber. And it's one of those things like, should getting a therapist, should starting the journey to like deal with your trauma, unpack your issues, should that look like an Uber business model that we know has so much exploitation, whether it's the exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of rider details and rider privacy, should that relationship mimic Uber?

And I would argue, no, it shouldn't. That accessibility is good. The idea of having a therapist at your fingertips sounds great. But when you actually think about it harder, you're like, wait, should therapy be a similar kind of business framework as something like an Uber where you can get a ride at the push of a button? And maybe this driver isn't being treated well. And maybe they aren't being super careful with my data. Who knows?

I don't know. The answers might be buried in the third page of some, you know, murky privacy document somewhere. Like, I'm not really sure. Should getting into a relationship with a therapist really be the same way that it is when you just like hail a taxi to your home? Yeah. I mean, no, I think, not at all.

And because like, you know, if someone's driving you from the restaurant to your home, like, I don't know. I guess that person can kind of be anybody as long as they're a little. like good enough. You know, they're not going to bother you. They're going to like be quiet, whatever. They'll do what they need to do to get you from like point A to point B. But when you're looking for a therapist, it's not just like, are they good enough? Are they going to like talk to you or listen? It's like, are they actually qualified to treat you? Do they understand your experience in a like deep way? And you need to shop around for therapists and talk to multiple

therapist in order to find somebody who's a good enough match. And instead of just being handed one like Uber would do or like Talk Space or Better Help does. So no, I don't think so. But there are apps and tech companies that like understand that Better Help is not doing this well and somebody else needs to do it better. So there is like a newer app that I think is maybe just in like Florida or Georgia right now. called Hurtle. Have you ever heard of Hurtle?

No. Yeah, it's, I just heard about it. And they contacted me to like, let me know about what they're doing. And they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you sponsor us on TikTok? And they said, no. But only because it's sort of like conflicts with therapy then where I'm trying to connect people. So it's, anyways, I love them and what they're doing, what they've started out doing, where they're like paying therapists well.

should talk about that with better help because they're not. And they're like making sure that all the therapists on the platform are competently trained in racial justice and social justice and they're trans competent and queer competent and they're continuously going through trainings. And so like they're doing it the right way. So there are apps and services out there that are starting to do it the right way, but better help and talk space, they're like these first movers that have amazing, amazing, marketing, especially better help.

And yeah, so it might be hard to compete with them. It's interesting that you say that they have better marketing, you know, because I've looked at your TikToks and I think one of the big criticisms is how they harvest people's data and use it for marketing and advertising. And, you know, I click through. I read their privacy form and, yeah, they're just using, all of your data, including your communications with your counselor for third-party marketing. And so it made me wonder, like, how much of their business model is actual therapy delivery

and how much are they in advertising company? Exactly. Yes. They get so much amazing personal data on your mental health information, who you are, are you suicidal, one was your last suicide attempt, how much money do you make, where do you live? What are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? What's your gender? Like, they get the most detailed information about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist, if you're meeting your therapist goal, if you're making a counseling goals, like so much stuff. Incredibly valuable. I don't know, like, how much money they make off of it or if they make any money off it if they're making all of their money off of that. But they, that information is incredibly

valuable. And they did, they were a little bit more clear a few months ago when I made one of my first TikTok videos about them and going through their privacy policy about like all the information that they collect. Since I sort of like exposed them and it got, you know, over a million views of their like privacy policy and they've changed their privacy policy to make it so much more vague and so much more confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway when it comes to like sharing your data. They can share your data with their corporate partners. Do you know who their corporate partners are? Fuck no. Who the fuck knows? I have no idea. They don't list them. They can share it with their ad network. You know who's in their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a ton of

people. They can they can use it for marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to use it for. We don't know what they're using for exactly. We don't know who they're sharing it with. We don't know how much money they're making off of it. And the only way that you can use their app is if you check off the terms of service, which allows them to use all this information. I would love it if they gave you an option to not sell your data. On my HBO Max subscription, there's a little checkbox that says, are we allowed?

Can we use your third party data? And I can just be like, nope. Better Help doesn't do that. And why would they ever do it because they're probably making a ton of money? Something else that I'd like to mention is that, you know, they're able to sell your information to third parties. And so if they sold your information to a company like Facebook, Ben, you think about all the different data that we know that Facebook is able to collect combined with whatever they have from your relationship with your counselor through BetterHelp. It becomes clearer. Like, we're not talking about little bits and pieces of data.

they really can mine and harvest a real composite, like, portrait of who you are and sell that for profit. And I just, I'm, I just fundamentally believe that that is not how a relationship with a mental health specialist should look. And to me, there is not another word for that other than, like, exploitation. And, like, I guess I really see it as this kind of capitalistic mining of the most sensitive stuff about us so that corporate, interest can get better pockets. And it's just so depressing and demoralizing. Oh, God, it is. It really is. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you

funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined.

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It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reed. I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nasree. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From IHeart Podcast, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk.

One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. For free time.

Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam. Run! Saigon. starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting here's madness. The world should hear about this. There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything.

Listen to Saigon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So you might be thinking, what about HIPAA? The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect patient health information from being disclosed without consent. Doesn't HIPAA prevent our health information from being used to sell things? In this case, the answer is not really. Our producer Mike works with health information, and that means he spends a lot of time dealing with HIPAA.

Here's what he had to say. I work within the constraints of HIPAA every day, and I think it's probably one of the most misunderstood laws in America. People think HIPAA protects all of their health information all of the time, but it doesn't. HIPA only applies to a very narrow set of actors and circumstances. Basically, it applies to health care providers, and their contractors. Better health is neither of those things. In a page on their website,

convincingly titled online therapy services, are they legit? Question mark. They repeatedly use phrases like HIPAA compliant therapists. What they don't say is that the therapists are bound by HIPAA because they're providing health care, but Better Health the platform is not because they aren't providing health care. They're simply connecting you with the providers, and so they are bound only by the terms of service you accept by creating an account. HIPAA was signed into law, 1996, around the same time Bill Clinton was describing the internet as an information super highway. Its authors never imagined all the ways the internet would revolutionize how we access healthcare. And so we've come to this place where most Americans believe their private health

information is legally protected, but that's just not always true. In reality, many of the digital services we use have no greater legal obligation to protect information about our health than information about what TV shows we like to watch or what types of sneakers we want to buy. So the question is, are we okay with for-profit tech companies like BetterHelp setting the precedent around privacy and digital health services? Because that's where we're at. And one of the questions that I get all the time, because you're right, they know you intimately, like so many things about you. And the question I get is like, how is this not a HIPAA violation? What is making this okay?

So if you are my client and you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm your therapist, all the notes that I write on you is actually your property. That's all yours. You can go to your therapist. You can be like, give me my notes. And a therapist legally has to hand that over to you. That's all of your medical information. We need to give it.

So if my client came in and was like, Jeff, give me all of the notes you've been keeping on me, and I give it over to them, they could take all that mental health information and they could sell it to an advertiser. They can give it to Facebook. As a client, you can do whatever you want with your medical information. And that's what's happening when you sign up for better help. You're saying, okay, all of the information that I'm providing to this therapist is mine, and now I'm giving it to you better help. You can do whatever you want with it. So that's another way that they're able to get around it. And so one of my big things, was like, oh, you know what, I can fuck over better help.

If I can like go to the state licensing boards in all of the states, I'd start with like California and New York and be like, okay, y'all, therapists are seeing these clients and they know that the client information that we like ethically, legally have to keep confidential is being given to better help and given to like advertisers. Should these therapists be allowed to provide therapy on better help.

Should these therapists be disciplined or have their license taken away? Not that I want to get those license taken away, but maybe I can put pressure on better help. And the problem is, is that, like, what I just mentioned, it's the client information, and they can hand it over. There also is something in HIPAA, where HIPAA is just like everything has to stay confidential

unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and it's anonymized. So, like, they also have that. that gray area. There's so many things that are protecting better help. It seems though that like stepping back to harvest all of this personal information about somebody's mental health and then use it to make advertising revenue, it just feels wrong, right? Oh, there's that, yeah.

It just doesn't sit well. It just doesn't feel okay. That shouldn't be happening. Obviously, like if I was your therapist now anonymizing your info and selling it to advertisers, I would lose my license, and I should. That just shouldn't be a part of the therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty,

capitalist, whatever time, where like, that's okay and they're incredibly protected and they're gonna probably continue to do that. And BetterHelp is, you know, they interacted with me a little bit by like leaving some comments on some of my TikTok videos and now they have, they're just ignoring me, which is probably a very good business

decision on their end because like, who the fuck am I? I don't know. I mean, you did, like, your TikToks had an impact when you were describing how they changed their, you know, their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you were going to say, you know, because of my TikToks, I got millions of views and they changed their privacy policy for the better. But then it was like, oh, they just made it even more vague. No, because of me, I made it worse for everybody. But like pointing this out, they're just like, cool, we need to be real fucking. shady now. So you're welcome, America. When I saw the news out of Texas, it had a really deep impact on me in a way that I almost can't even articulate why. There was something about the

videos that were coming out of it that just really hit me in a way that, you know, you think that you're desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something about those videos really stuck with me. And I think seeing like the live stream with an Apple logo on it where I knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances. I really can't shake the deep disturbed way that that, how disturbing that was to me. Like I don't know why I've not been able to sort of like move past it, but I have not. And when I woke up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering with better help, that was. that really, it just seemed like a cherry on top of this exploitation cake where these young people had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways for profit to make money for

corporate interest, whether we're talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizers, Apple, streaming platforms, whatever. And then in the aftermath of that horrific, traumatic tragedy, what they were being offered was just another way to serve them up to be further mined and exploited. And it was like it broke my brain. I couldn't even conceptualize the depths to how broken so many systems are

where that's the thing they're being offered and even still one month of it. So it's like it's already shitty what they're being offered, but it's not even that long. Some of these kids probably have like complex PTSD. It takes longer than a month to treat that. What were your thoughts on that partnership? it.

Yeah, garbage. I thought it was a dumpster fire. I thought it was, I felt the same way that you felt. So yeah, it's like a bunch of, you know, corporations creating trauma and then sending those traumatized kids to BetterHelp where they're going to like mine their data and make a ton of money. It was disturbing. It was upsetting.

And it reminded me of when Better Help used to, I still think they kind of do this, but back in like 2018, 2019. they were going to all the therapist directories out there that attract, you know, the clients that are looking for therapists. And they were just trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote partner with them in order to like take all of their business and like direct those, those users into the better help ecosystem. And so they approached me when I like launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we go ahead and take like therapists, profiles and add them to your directory so that if any of the like people that are using your directory that, uh, you know, find, they like find one of our better help therapists and then create services or create, you know, start therapy with them. And every time, uh, somebody signs up for

um, better help through therapy then, we'll pay you $300, um, which is a ton of money. And because they're like, you could potentially make $80,000 a month. because we've had this deal created this deal with other therapist directories that are the same size as yours. And I know those therapist directories, and I know the owners and some of them are buddies of mine. So I was like talking to them about like what went on. And those therapist directories were like basically taken over and just used as like a funnel in order to like, you know, get even more people to sign up for better help. So you don't really own your therapist directory anymore.

They just sort of like take it over because they put that. thousands and thousands, 20,000 different therapist profiles or something like on your directory. And it's also like, therapy done is about like matching people with like a good competent therapist that you know is a good fit. And BetterHelp can't do that at all. It's a therapy, though. So it didn't feel okay. It allowed like loose control. Like it just didn't feel like a good match at all.

And I like started to, that's when I started to like really learn about their privacy policy and the data mining and shit. like that. And I would imagine that like all of the marketing that they do that BetterHelp does on all the podcasts and NPR and shit like that, all of those companies are probably getting like a very nice kickback because BetterHelp was like, hey, on average, we make $1,200. We bring in $1,200 when somebody signs up for Better Help. We are very much willing to like pay you $300 when we collect $1,200. Also, we're going to pay the therapist shit. So like it's not even like we have too much of an overhead cost. You talk about how the therapists are just,

not only are they not paid what like a comparable amount that they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but also, you know, I learn from your TikToks. They're sometimes paid by the word. And so once they hit their word count, they kind of have to decide if they want to continue treating a client who very well may be in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their heart

because they care about this client for free, clients can access their therapist 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which sounds really good in theory. But then you're like, should you have access to a therapist 24-7? I would say no, that maybe you should have some boundaries around how you access your therapist. It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money they must be taking in via how much money gets spent, gets given to their actual therapists who are like doing the work of sustaining this platform. Yeah, 100%. I mean, the therapists are getting maybe around 30, a little less than $30 an hour.

Ideally, if you're a therapist and you're seeing clients, you want to get at least $100 an hour. That's what we're like aiming for, if not more, if you live in more expensive cities. But our help is like, we will pay you up to $50 an hour if you work more hours per week. So if you work up to 50 hours a week, you'll get our top pay, which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand why that's a pay scale that exists. Like work 15 hours get $30 or less an hour, work up to 50 hours a week more. I don't know. That's a whole fucking thing.

I hate that. And then it's they pay you based on word count. So you can't go over the word count that they like provide. If you do start like providing more support. If you start texting more support and going over the word count, you're working for fucking free therapist. They're not going to pay you for it. So maybe they're paying you $30 an hour, but it's actually a lot less if you like feel like you need to give even more support to that client. And of course, just like Uber and Lyft or whatever, like you're not getting benefits, your contract, you're not like getting paid time off.

You know, like you have to provide all of your equipment. You know, so it's just like it's a bunch of bullshit. that therapists are getting exploited and they're able to exploit these therapists that are usually like fresh out of grad school or just looking for a little part-time work or something. And yeah, 24-hour access to a therapist, clinically, no, not okay. That's not creating self-reliance. You need to be able to kind of like go and do your thing and then be able to check back with your therapist.

I understand why that's appealing, though. But imagine, understand that that therapist with a caseload of like 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, clients a week, they're getting pinged all the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist is able, but like a therapist must have to, it's in their contract, that they have to respond within 24 hours, no matter what day or time it is, which is not very realistic. Plus, there's this thing where like if there's, if BetterHelp has like a flood of people signing up, they're like, okay, I know that you have a ton of clients, but will you take these

new clients, we'll pay you more for these new clients, which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their old clients that they're not getting paid enough for in the first place, to then take the new clients. It's such a stupid fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell? It's so fucked up, and this is not how therapy is meant to be. This is not how it should look to access mental health care.

And in the wake of the Astro World thing, it's like, it is like an exploitation layer cake where the clients, the potential clients are going to be exploited. The therapists running the site are being exploited. Everybody's being exploited except for the tech overlords who are possibly like making money from the people that are being referred from this tragedy. Honestly, talking to you has helped me make sense of why it made me so deeply, deeply angry and disgusted. Like I had such a visceral reaction.

Also just the use of the word partnership, like, you know, using this tragedy as a branding opportunity. I really found it deeply, deeply, like, just disgusting. And I think talking to you is really made it so clear that, yeah, that wasn't, that was almost about to say, like, an irrational response. That was a rational response because it is really fucked up, but it is really disgusting. Yeah, it's a very rational response to a very irrational thing that's occurring, totally. You've described all these numbers of, like, caseloads of 40 or 50 patients a week, which, Like, what a joke. How can you be providing, like, high quality of care?

I haven't heard you say anything about, like, the evaluation process or, you know, any sort of quality control. Do you know if they do? Like, I just have to imagine that the quality of care that patients are receiving is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is that something that they look at or measure or talk about? Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question.

I've never come across any sort of, like, data or survey about the quality. of care. So I don't know. And I just feel, I feel bad for everybody involved. I feel really bad for the therapists that are getting burnt out that are kind of like forced to work longer or more hours. And this is, I don't know. I don't know if I can say this.

So, well, whatever. Maybe we'll cut it out. But there's, I'm going to say this. If you want to, if you're someone. somebody that's seeing a better help therapist and you really like like your therapist because there's a ton of really great therapists on there. And this conversation is upsetting or disturbing you. If you wanted to ask your better help therapist if they have their own private practice

and they are accepting clients, then that's something you can ask them and you can talk to them about the better help therapists, obviously, are not allowed to be like, I have a private practice if you want to see me there and you know even pay me if you like pay that therapist the same amount that you're giving better help then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled you know by that time um so so because i get a lot of like feedback like oh but i love my better health therapist well stick with that better help therapist i'm so happy for you also maybe you can like see them in their private practice and get out of like better help if you want to i think i can say that i'm pretty sure keeping it yeah yeah

I think that's good advice because it sounds like you're being so clear that you're not trying to say that BetterHelp doesn't have great kick-ass therapists on the platform, but that the platform itself does not support these therapists for giving the best quality of care that they can. And so there might be other ways to access that same therapist that you might love who is on BetterHelp in a way where they're not being sort of set up to give you not as good, not as good of care as you could be getting otherwise. Right. Exactly. And your therapist in their private practice probably won't sell all your personal mental health information. Most likely they are not going to do that. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Reader Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play. game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nass, but get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Now, I'm not the only one who has a problem with BetterHelp's partnership with Travis Scott in the wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response has not been good, and BetterHelp is working overtime to correct what they're calling misinformation about their platform. Now, it's worth noting that BetterHelp waited until the partnership got negative reactions online to clarify pretty basic details about the arrangement. Frankly, making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought.

They released an FAQ where they say that people who use the free month of BetterHelp services will not be billed after that month is up. And they say that Travis Scott isn't making any money from the partnership. Now, I've heard a lot of tech company corporate doubles speak in my day, and I'd like the company to clarify whether this also pertains to any business or philanthropic entities Travis Scott might be affiliated with. They also answer the frequently asked question, is information members enter on better health ever sold to advertising platforms or third parties? Now, they answer this with an emphatic, no, period.

But that can't be the whole story because on the first. their own privacy policy in the section called purposes for which information is used, they say your information may be used to, quote, personalized website experience, including targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third-party sites, and via email or text message. They also say, quote, we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent companies within our corporate group. So who are these other companies in their corporate group?

And what products are being advertised? is Better Health using your personal mental information to buy ads or sell ads? Why rely on such vague language when discussing something as important as our health and privacy? I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language and gray areas in their privacy policies to mislead the public, which under normal circumstances is bad, but it's especially egregious to do that after a tragedy. Do you feel like the public is owed a little bit of transparency about this partnership? I feel like especially given that the folks who were at that festival are like a lot of them are young people. I feel like it is a public good for better help and or Travis Scott to say,

hey, we're doing this therapy partnership for folks who are impacted by this tragedy. Here's who's making money on it. Here's how your data is going to be used. You know, like whether Travis Scott better help or both are making some sort of like cut or kickback, Do you feel like it's in the public interest for us to have that, like, information in a transparent way? Oh, my God, 100%. Yes. And, like, in my most recent TikTok video that's on Twitter and everywhere else, I'm saying that, like, what's going on? Like, let's be clear here. Who's getting paid? Do, how do you continue care after that one month? How much is it going to cost in order to, like, continue? Like, it's just all so murky. So yeah, I would love if there's more transparency around it.

But the way that better help operates is just like they're very good at like making shit real vague. And unfortunately, whenever I push against them or anyone pushes up against them, they just get even more vague and more vague and get into that gray area. So hopefully this will like get more people to become concerned and ask them to be more transparent about what they're doing and the deal that's being set up with Travis Scott. Yeah. I just feel like we're in this age where things that. technology that is meant to be like a wellness-focused thing or a mental health-focused thing, we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind of scammy and like not really regulated.

And so we have all of these apps that are sort of mental health-ish or like wellness-ish or like medical care-ish. And you just have to, like, are these regulated, are they safe? Am I actually getting good information from like a competent, trained medical health professional? I wonder, like, do you feel the same way that we're in this sort of Wild West where there are so many tech platforms offering us wellness or, you know, medical care, but in this very gray area way where they can sort of avoid having to answer some of these questions about, you know, the quality of care that you're actually getting? Oh, yeah, for sure. And they're so savvy. They're so slick. They know exactly what they're doing. So you just kind of like give this like these ish services and it works

well enough. And also, you know, all these like podcasts or MPR or whoever, like it's such a good look for them. Like, oh, therapy. You know, like it looks like they're, it's so nice to the quote to quote, quote, partner with them because it sort of like lifts their brand up, you know. So it's just like this feel good, lovely thing, but we don't know what's going on like right behind the scenes. And NPR, fuck you NPR. I hate that NPR is like running ads all over the place. I mean, it's all over Oregon with like NPR and OPP over here where they're just like constantly hearing better help. And I'm emailing NPR and Oregon public broadcast. I'm like letting them know like, like, I want to be on your show. This is not okay. If you understood the values of this company,

you would have a fucking ameurism about it. But like, oh, they're not responding to me. they're not doing anything about it. So it's this weird, like, halo effect that happens when they do partner with these BetterHelp. And, like, yeah, no, yeah. I don't know. I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying. So, yeah. Yeah, and it's, I mean, you've said a mouthful.

And I know in the podcast space specifically that BetterHelp has a, it's like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear. If you listen to a podcast, you've definitely heard a Better Help ad. And I have, you know, friends and colleagues who I'm sure do Better Help ads. And I'm not trying to, like, call. call anybody out. But I also feel like you have to take a little bit of responsibility for the, for like, not, so it's not just a financial arrangement where they pay you and you read the ad, but if you sound like you're endorsing their values and endorsing their practices, and if you're

using your like MPR voice to make this service seem really good and progressive and like a good, like a good idea. Like, I do think we have to step back and ask some hard questions of ourselves about whether or not we're allowing brands whose values do not align with our own to be kind of brandwashed by our, like,

you know, slick podcaster voice or, you know, or be like the relationship that podcast listeners have with their hosts, right? Like, I feel like it, like, it exploits the connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to make brands that are not so good seem like they're actually aligned with their values, I guess. You said it.

Totally. 100%. I keep on saying it, but BetterHelp has one of the best marketing teams I've ever seen. They're so good. And they know exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok videos. Is they off right now? Oh, they're totally fucking off.

Because all the TikTokers are just like, whoa, we don't like this. This is like, thank you, Jeff, for, like, being transparent and, like, explaining their privacy policy. We're going to spam all their TikTok videos, and you can't. They block everybody. Like, they know how to turn all that shit off. So, yeah, I think podcasters and everyone with their NPR voices, like, really need to think about. And also, like, I fucking guarantee all these podcasters are not getting their therapy through better help. Like, no way are they actually doing that.

So yeah, you got me all around up. I agree. It's interesting you mentioned the, you know, the halo effect there. And, you know, this moment that we're in where there are all these potentially scammy-ish mental health services. And it's like mental health, it's only sort of recently become a thing that we all are talking about and acknowledging as like something that needs to be dealt with. But it's still like a very private personal thing. And I wonder if that like contributes to the viability of scams like this. Maybe it's a scam, maybe it's not.

But like when an actor is going to participate in delivering mental health services, but not respect that like privacy piece of it and just, you know, completely violate those norms in pursuit of profit. it's a pretty dangerous tech-enabled place. One of the good things is that it's sort of like breaking, it's mental health stigma is like reducing. So that's also one of the things that's like a good thing that's happening. But at what cost?

Because there's like so much information and data sharing and like ads being directed more towards you because of this. So like yay for accessibility, yay for like these stigmatization. But like, this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing and we need to talk even more about it. Well, I mean, so we we don't fuck with better health, but as we know, like, it can be so hard to get access to a therapist. So like what are some alternatives to services like better health that might be a little less scammy and exploitative if folks out there, want to access mental health services but don't know where to start. I mean, I'm biased, but I love TherapyDem.com.

Start there. There's another therapist directory that I am in love with, Inclusivetherapists.com. Same sort of vibe and mission and values as TherapyDem.com. The thing is, is like, you kind of have to be okay or accepting accepting of the fact that, like, this is going to be a journey for you. Finding a therapist is going to take some time. And the reason it's going to take time is because you need to find somebody who's a really good match and who can competently treat you.

So you're going to have to, like, interview three, four, five, ten therapists possibly to, like, find somebody who's a good match for you. It's grueling and it sucks and I don't like it. But starting at Therapyden.com, inclusivetherapist.com, even just like boogling somebody, you know, like trying or going to Psychology Today.com to like go through their therapist directory. Find a therapist that's in private practice. You'll like the quality of care is through the roof compared to the quality of care that you get from Better Health just because of the way the better health is like set up. So have some patients really educate yourself. Ask all of the

questions that you want. Like, how can you competently train me? What's your background? But also, like, if you want, you can be like, are you married? Do you have kids? Are you from this city? Where do you hang out? What do you think about? Like, who's your favorite sports team? Do you garden? Whatever the fuck you want. Like, are you, like, ask all the questions. Therapists don't have to answer all these questions. But I want you to ask all the questions that will make you feel more comfortable talking to that therapist. Ask them, like, do you diagnose? What do you think my diagnosis might be? What is treatment going to look like? Are you cool? Whatever you need to do. So you need to start, TherapyDen.com, wherever the hell you want to start and then understand

that you have to, like, go on a journey. Honestly, if it was not for your TikToks, I would not have known any of this. Like, I don't think there's a lot of resources out there to help people understand companies or platforms like Better Health. And so I'm so glad that you're making the content that you are because I think that you're helping people take ownership over there, or you're empowering people to advocate for themselves and take ownership over how they access these services. And so I'm so grateful for you.

Where can folks keep up with you? Yeah. So you can look for Search for Therapy Den on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. am. I am also, I produce a podcast called Swoon, Love Lessons with Julian and Gina. So Julie and Gina are sex therapists and experts, and every now and then I'll hop on and be on a podcast episode with them. So you can find me there talking, like giving love advice. I'm an amazing at giving love advice. So that's where you can find me. And you can personally email me. me at hello attherapidep.com if you have any questions.

The astral world disaster has turned into a hotbed of conspiracy theories. In our next episode, we'll hear from researcher Abby Richards about why this tragedy has resulted in satanic panic on social media platforms like TikTok. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoati.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel,

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano.

It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season, and I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Mark keep coming to you.

He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast.

And for Mental Health Awareness Month, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations

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