There Are No Girls on the Internet - What is a journalism? TikTok and the future of news (w/ Vitus Spehar of Under the Desk News!)

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

Bridget has a deeply fascinating and important conversation with the brilliant Vitus Spehar from Under The Desk News about “the news.” TikTok and social media have changed who gets to tell the news, for good and for bad. On the positive side, engaging creators are making important issues resonate with their communities more deeply than Walter Cronkite ever could have dreamed. On the negative side, social media algorithms reward outrage and encourage disinformation that entrenches polarization. It’s complicated! Fortunately we have people like V who can succinctly tell us, and legislators, what we need to know. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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business. Call 844-844-I-Hart. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. Timbo, in every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlic on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. It's not just one white man writing a story from a white man's

perspective handing it to another white news anchor to deliver on an entirely white brown major network. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. I grew up in a newspaper family, and in fact, our family always got two copies of our local newspaper, one for the family, and another one just for my dad that none of us were supposed to rifle through. I guess because the man really enjoyed having a critical. crisp, fresh newspaper all to himself. But that was a long time ago.

Today, less and less people are getting their news from traditional sources like a newspaper or a mainstream media outlet. Instead, they're getting their news from podcasts. Hey, like the one you're listening to right now. And from content creators on social media. And if you've gotten your news on TikTok, odds are you've seen Vitus Spear from Under the Desk news. That title, Under the Desk, is literal, by the way.

V actually gets down under their desk to tell their 3 million followers on TikTok what they need to know. And it started during the height of the pandemic. We were seeing a lot of journalists working from home. And so I didn't want to blur this line of like being some super serious journalist who was just working from home because of, you know, the pandemic. And so I got under my desk to create this kind of safe place where we could have like a secret and talk about the news and a way that wasn't going to be. scary to people that wasn't sensationalized and that just kind of was what I would do, you know, if I was still in the office. Like, if I had a water cooler in my home, I probably would have been water cooler talk, but I didn't. So I just had the under the desk space. So that's, that was like

the ethos and the idea of like why under a desk. Going back to that time where we all were sort of emotionally, that's when doom scrolling became a thing. And the news, it was like you couldn't, if you opened up a news app, you were like opening up this whole rush of emotions, many of them were like bad, scary, big. And so your voice was really one that was calming. It was soothing. It was like, here's the stuff you need to know, but you don't need to freak out. Here's some information. Is that the vibe you were intentionally trying to cultivate? Yeah, that was the originality of it because, I mean, if you think about, we went into our homes in March. I started the TikTok in like March or April and I actually used to do cooking.

cooking content when I first started. Because I was working for the James Beard Foundation, which is like a big chef organization. And I was trying to tell the chefs about how to apply for PPP loans and like EIDL and shuttered venue. And at that time, like on TikTok, you had to have like a kitchy thing. So I would like throw butter from across my room into the pan. And I would like make the hamburgers slap in the air. And like I was so ridiculous. And I would be teaching people about these government programs and that kind of led into explaining the CARES Act. And And then that led into the election. And then that led into January 6th, Joe Biden's first hundred days, the pullout of Afghanistan.

I mean, there was just like always something else that was really scary that watching the news was stressing me out because I'd have to watch for like hours before I just found out what happened. You know, just give it to me, tell me quickly what happened. And so I felt like I could create this space to kind of catch people up quickly and help bring them back to the news in a way that wasn't requiring such a commitment from me. them both emotionally and time-wise. You've kind of become a go-to news source for TikTok. Like when I think about people who make news on TikTok, I think of you specifically. Why do you think that TikTok is a platform that is conducive to people getting their news in like a specific

kind of way? It's not a news reader, you know, so detached from the feeling or the emotion. There's a real relationship that's being built. Why do you think that folks on TikTok are looking for that or that's taken off on the platform? So a lot of the way that I do the news is based on the way that I grew up. And my mom is who I call the original citizen journalist because she used to be home. And I remember the year that she bought a police scanner and she would just sit with her girlfriends and like drink coffee and smoke Virginia Slims and like listen to the police scanner. And then my dad had come home and she'd be like, oh my God, Paul, you're not going to believe it. You're not going to believe it.

And she would like go around and like look for the police or like they just, you know, in our little town. it was like a goofy kind of thing to do and like how much crime was really happening. There wasn't really that much. But she would like report back to him all the things that happened. And I think that people love that. They've loved that forever. People love getting their news from their peers, catching up with the girls, like just talking about what's going on in the world.

And so I think on TikTok, we get that kind of feeling. And especially at a time, most of us started during the pandemic, we kind of trauma bonded, right? This is where we were connecting with people, where we were building friendships and learning things. And so I think it's that thing that's always been a thing where you'd rather hear it from a friend than you'd rather hear it from like some stodgy person on the evening news telling you like, you know,

it's 10 p.m. Do you know where your children are and like scaring you all the time, you know? So. Yeah, moms, nosy moms who want to know what's going on in their neighborhood. Absolutely. We're the original newsbreakers, the original social media networks.

Ask a mom. Yep. Yep. Yep. America, America has a problem. Trust. It turns out that Americans' confidence in newspapers and television news has plummeted to an all-time low. This is according to a Gallup survey on trust in the United States' institutions conducted last year. Now, distrust in media might conjure up ideas of right-wingers who hate CNN and all journalists,

but it's more than that. Because many of us have watched mainstream media outlets fail to thought, cover our issues. And for marginalized communities, like women, trans folks, black folks, queer folks, disabled folks, this really matters. It can be life or death. But maybe social media can present a solution. Because listen to this, Pew found that U.S. adults under 30 now trust information from social media almost as much from national news outlets. So if you're somebody like V, this is a real opportunity to tell authentic stories. I don't think I have to tell you that distrust in traditional news networks is like really high, particularly with marginalized folks,

young people, Gen Z. Why do you think that is? So what I find interesting about that is a lot of the news that I'm bringing people is coming from these legacy media organizations. I mean, I was the face of the LA Times TikTok for six months and it like greatly improved their sort of relationship with the audience. Sometimes I'm pulling things from the Washington Post or the New York Times like these big legacy organizations. I think the difference here is I do believe that people trust reporters. I think if they could meet Aaron Logan from the L.A. Times, they would feel differently about her reporting than when they just read it in the newspaper and they sort of ascribe whatever

bias they have to that newspaper onto her reporting as an example. I think we have seen this rise in advertising. We know that there are certain channels that are bought. We know that the goal isn't necessarily to inform the way that the news. used to be, but since we've been on this 24-hour cycle, the goal is to occupy your time and keep eyeballs on you so that they can advertise. And that's a problem across all platforms, right? Like this idea that your ability to communicate is directly related to your ability to fundraise or to get advertisers or to, you know, raise money and stuff. And so I think that's where the distrust

comes from is people feeling like these big legacy organizations are out of touch. They're using words that are too academic for the average person. They're talking about things that are too high level for what we need to know and deal with today. They feel like they're protecting the other side. I was having a conversation recently with Sam Wally, who's a professor at the University of Austin, he talks about propaganda. And he was talking about how a lot of distrust in the media has come from the idea that journalism is supposed to be both sides totally objective. And you can't be when social issues lead the current news cycle. When we're talking about scientific research, sure, we could say, should we be gene editing humans?

I don't know, but we are. That's a good both sides, right? But when we're talking about the realistic existence of trans people, well, we can't both sides that. I think when people try to both sides it, they think that these newspapers don't have a strong point of view. They're not standing on the right side of history, whatever the case may be. Or they're leaning too far to the left and they've gone woke. And so I think a lot of it is because social issues are leading the news right now, that there's a lot of distrust.

But I do believe that individual reporters still hold a ton of credibility with the public. I was at a panel recently, like a journalism panel, and someone mentioned this reporter, Phil Lewis, who was like big on Twitter, always like the big news, he's always tweeting about it. And they were like, okay, so this is someone that you are familiar with, you follow this person, you trust this person. Do you know what news outlet they write for? And I was like, no. And it was like, the AP.

Would never have been a million years have guessed that. And it's like, clearly, it's not that Phil works for the AP or is representing the AP. I have, in my mind, turned Phil into, like, Black Twitter's Town Cryer or whatever. And it's like, it has nothing to do with the outlet that Phil is at. It has everything to do with the relationship that I feel like I have when I see Phil in my feed. So I think that you're exactly right. I also think there's really something to this idea about how we've gotten to this place where journalists, or maybe it's not even journalists, maybe it's media outlets, feel like it's their

job to give both sides of issues that really don't have two sides to it, right? Like, that's been a real frustration of mine where I'll be like, oh, this trans person wants to have rights. People on the other side say they should all be killed. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And it's like, no, it's really not. It's really not. And you're doing folks a disservice when you train them, but like this is what good journalism is.

Good journalism does not try to find the middle ground of like a position that doesn't necessarily even have two sides. Like how do we get out of that trap that trains people that this is what good journalism is? So I think that we're going to have a longer road because we're also in a day and age where I can make anything true. I can make anything true. You can find something that looks very official journalism, very official newspaper news outlet, something that's called like the daily caller or like the telegram or what, you know what I mean, that sounds like a legit newspaper. It's all lined up. It's got the columns right.

The pictures are right. It looks good. You can make anything true. And so as long as we live in a world where we can make anything true and the truth is so flexible in fact that it is more based on the opinion. in what will be received as opposed to like what is objectively true. We're going to continue to have a lot of problems with people feeling like they can't trust journalism or like there's both sides of it or everything is true because there's no solid consensus on anything at all.

And that's that's sort of the nonsense that I try to deal with under the desk is people will be like, why don't you talk about this? And I'm like, there's no way I can talk about that without just descending into absolute madness because it's too much of a third real topic and people have built their religion into the way they receive news now or their perceived religion into the way they receive news now. And so it's just people forcing something to be true, whether it is or not. And I think we have to fight that before we can expect journalists to keep up with that. Do you think in some ways we're like beyond truth?

Sometimes I worry that we're just in this new era where it doesn't. ultimately it doesn't really matter if something is actually true or not, even things that can and cannot, and like can and cannot be objectively true, because that's not what we're really arguing about. We're arguing about people's identities and their ideologies and their values and what they feel and all of these perceptions. And it kind of doesn't matter ultimately if the thing is true. Do you ever feel that way? I do. So, and I think that we can fix it, but I think we have to be able to name it. So like for me, the Buffalo Bills are the greatest football team that I've ever played the game. You can't tell me nothing about the Buffalo Bills, right? They're the best.

When they lose, it wasn't their fault. When they win, it's because God himself was on the field that day with Josh Allen, right? Like, I love the bills unreasonably with no end in sight, okay? And that is normal for a sports fan. That is not normal for us to ascribe to politicians. There is not one politician that should walk the way that should be treated the way that we treat our sports teams. And we've also taken the truth and made it a matter of who is winning the truth, right? So you take a politician or you take a public figure and we have a truth about them. They were found liable of sexual assault, right? So that's a truth.

That's a fact. That happened. But that's your team. That's your guy. So you're going to make every excuse about like why that might be. be a little less true or why that doesn't matter in the long run. And that's a problem too. And this has all been done on purpose, right, since the 1970s. And for centuries upon centuries, this has been done, right? This is just human nature. But what they've done so well right now is this

division of media outlets where you have like your left wing outlets and your right wing outlets. And they're fighting like sports teams. And so because you have triggered this like protective fan instinct in people, they're going to defend their team. They're going to defend their team. guy, they're gods the way that they do with religion in sports as opposed to keeping an objective lens on accountability when it comes to public figures and politicians. And so I think if we know that that's what's happening to people when they're receiving stories, we can adjust the way we're telling the story to make it make sense to that person and kind of break that haze that a lot of folks have on public figures.

Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because you're, Parents made a huge donation.

The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged, one erection.

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That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. And we're back. I never thought I'd see the day where people were like, I hate CNN. or like this news outlet. Like it's just, yeah, they're not sports teams.

And it's so curious that we're in this day and age where where you get your news is like something to be defended about you. It's like not even about the news that they create. Like I just, it's such a weird position that we find ourselves in this day and age. It's obsessive. It's intentionally addictive. They've used all of the things that used to make us addicted to making sure we watch TGIF every single Friday night or we never missed an episode of The Bachelor.

and they've built that into the ways that they news program now. So you're just as addicted to those programs and to that information as you would be your favorite television show or scary movies. You know, you want to see that next one that's coming out right away, right away. And so I think those are the things that we have to kind of overcome when it comes to media. And then we also have to overcome this feeling of better than that a lot of journalists have. I've been asking myself a lot, what is a journalism? Like, what is a journalism?

because there are some people who look at what I do and they're like, now you're a hack who reads headlines. And I'm like, okay. And then there are other people who are like, this is an incredible new media. And then there are other people who are like, well, the original reporting you do on the podcast kind of cancels out the fact that your TikTok is corny. And there are other people who are like, well, your TikTok reaches more people and has a higher finish rate than any other news outlet on TikTok. And I'm like, okay, so what is it? But everyone's still trying to decide have I earned the right to be a part of journalism, right? because that industry has been so gate-kept and so academicized, which is not a word, but it is now, where it's like people, you know, I don't claim to rival Taylor Lorenz when it comes to investigative reporting on the internet,

but both of us are really important to it getting to the public. Taylor can write something that's out, we're friends, which I'm bringing her up as an example. Taylor can write something that took her months that the Washington Post has paid her to write to investigate, to take that time to use those resources to get this incredible story together. If she can't connect with the audience because she was building that huge story and she was busy, then who's going to deliver it to them to sort of direct people in the direction of that piece? So it takes a lot of different folks to make journalism work nowadays. And I think that's a good thing if we could all embrace it and understand our place within it,

because it's not just one white man writing a story from a white man's perspective, handing it to another white news anchor to deliver on an entirely white brand major network. And that's good. Like, these are good problems to have, but I think we need to start thinking about what is a journalism who is a journalist and why we are so gatekeeping about that industry. Like, if I didn't go to Columbia School of journalism, or the best question I get all the time, did you go to J school? First of all, girl, I was like, yeah, I don't know. Like, so? I'm like, what is J school?

I'm like, I went to theater school and then I went to business school. I was like J school. I'm like, Jesuit school? I couldn't imagine what it was. That's amazing, you know? Did you want to be in journalism when you were younger? Did you see yourself being in the role that you are today? I have always been really good at explaining things and I've always been a negotiator.

And before I was doing what I do now, I worked in food policy a lot. I've always been fascinated by history and politics. And just more the society dynamics of the world, I would say, is like more what I'm interested in. And that's kind of what I speak to. So now I'm doing the news. But the news is always coming from like a society lens. How does this affect people? Not necessarily how does this affect processes or how does this affect politics.

And so I have always been like this. I did not imagine that I would be like a news anchor. but what's kind of funny is my pledge sister from my sorority is also a news anchor in Seattle. And she's like, yeah, no, this makes sense for us. I don't know why. We were just best friends and both ended up kind of as news anchors. I mean, she's like the nightly news anchor in Seattle. But I think I have a performance background.

I have a theater background. I'm very good at understanding big concepts very quickly. I'm used to explaining things that are very complicated. Like I used to explain food policy to chefs. And I love this work. And I love connecting with people. And I love being a helper. And so in those ways, I think I see myself fitting into this world.

And this is the dream that I always had. I just didn't know it was going to come in this can. I think you have a gift for spreading a message and spreading information and really making people connect and care. You know, dissemination. And to your point about how so much of media can turn people off, it really speaks to the importance of dissemination because I could sit down and write the most compelling, nuanced, well-researched,

in-depth piece on an issue in the New York Times. But some people are just never going to be the type of people who pick up a New York Times newspaper. So that message isn't getting to everybody who needs to hear it. Something that we've just started doing recently on this podcast, which is in addition to the sort of in-depth interviews, like the one that you're on right now, we also do these weekly news roundups where big issues around technology and the internet and how it's legislated, we are summarizing and making accessible. Now, we're obviously just summarizing headlines and stories written by other people, but we try to put it in everyday language, make it accessible, and give people the context. And I really feel like when it comes to tech especially, there is something about the way that these stories are framed that just, I don't know, it just always turned me off. And if it's turning me off, it's probably turning a lot of other folks off too. So they just end up tuning it out when they actually really need to hear it.

And yeah, most of these stories and the way they were framed and written just did not speak. to me as a black woman. You know, take AI, for instance. Someone will be reporting on AI and they would be talking about it like a business story rather than how will this technology impact me as somebody who is marginalized and disproportionately harmed by technology. And sometimes it seems like these stories were written in a way that ends up just shutting people out who actually need to hear it.

And we've gotten a tremendous response from doing the news roundups in this way because I think people really want accessible kind of like, here's what you need to know. know, here's how it will impact you coverage of important stories. You know, that's what folks are really looking for. They don't want to be scared into paying attention or guilted into paying attention. They just want to know, okay, what's going on? What I need to know? How will impact me? How should I be thinking about it? How can I contextualize it? How should I internalize it? And this is what I think so many media outlets are just failing to do for people who actually really do want it. So that, and that speaks to lived experience, right? Like, I always had a work. So I didn't have time,

even in college, I had to work. I couldn't possibly, so I never developed the skill to sit down on Sunday or at the end of my day or at the beginning of my day and really get into reading something and like really giving myself time to reflect on that something. I don't have a lot of time. But a lot of the people who get to speak and a lot of the people that get platform and get to write did have that experience because they immersed themselves culturally in that kind of time.

They had that kind of time. I didn't have that kind of time. And so now they're writing and they're writing expecting that the audience. has had a similar walk of life that they did. And they didn't. And so that's why for me, the news is so quick at the end of the night because I'm like, I got to tell you what you got to know in a minute and a half because we got kids to feed, we got homework to do, or I've got another job to get to, or I've got like my wife has rehearsal tomorrow night. So I'm trying to like make sure I do the news before I drive it to rehearsal. Like there's all kinds of stuff that we do, especially

from marginalized groups that take up more of our time that give us less time to reflect. So if I could get you something fast that's going to tell you how. it's going to affect you. And then you can just reflect on that one part or something. Now we've sort of like helped people catch up with the folks who have all this leisure time to dive into the theology of what's going on. Yeah. I used to watch shows like sex in the city or like movies that took place in New York. And it would be like, oh, I'm just sitting around with my stack of magazines and newspapers. And it's like, who's doing that? Like what adult has time to sit around with their like coffee in their five newspapers and just pour through them.

I lived in New York for a number of years after, during and after college. And so many people nowadays, like, because I'm an elder millennial, will be like, yeah, I remember when we used to like watch friends? Remember Sex and the City originally? I'm like, no, girl, I had to work. I never was home at night to watch. I never watched the office. I never watched any of these shows.

The last sitcom I watched was Seinfeld because I was in high school. And like, maybe I had time to watch that with my dad if I was up late, right? Like, I never watched any of these shows about New York because I lived there, and I had to have a lot of jobs. People who are, like, creating the fantasy of, like, what life looks like there is like, no, people who actually are here. Yeah, they live in Ohio. Yeah. Breaking news from there are no girls on the internet news. This is voiceover narration, Bridget.

And I'm getting reports that anyone can get a microphone and start saying anything they want about the news and current events on TikTok and try to get people to think they're a reputable source. For instance, after the tragic murder of four students on the campus of University of Idaho, a self-proclaimed internet sleuth and tarot card reader got tons and tons of views after reporting, scare quotes, about the case on TikTok and accusing a professor who had nothing to do with it of being the culprit. So for someone like me, who is invested in our internet ecosystems being places where accurate information thrives, I got to be honest, it worries me. But V says that's what happens when creators are just focused on things like eyeballs and engagement, rather than focusing on authentically amplifying stories that really matter.

Because when the latter happens, you get platforms that are flooded with helpful, thoughtful stories, especially ones that might otherwise be underreported or overlooked. Think about all the different stories in the last few years that got more visibility because of social media platforms like TikTok. Like the Tennessee 3, where three lawmakers, two black, and one a woman, were expelled from office over their protests in favor of gun control. Or Baby Chanel, an indigenous child in Alaska, living with non-native foster parents who racially demeaned her online, which shed light on the Indian Child Welfare Act.

These stories should be told, they deserve to be told. And with more and more people making good content on platforms like TikTok, V says that it increases the chances that those stories will reach more people, so we'll all be better informed. Back to you, interview Bridget. Do you think that having more and more people making their own news content on platforms like TikTok, do you think that that will help curb things like misinformation or be a way to help or make it worse? Like what are your thoughts?

I think the more people that are making content generally, the better. I think it's great for people to be able to express themselves and you can see people grow. Some people who weren't that good in the beginning or were like overperforming have now kind of relaxed and gotten better. other people have fallen off. What I think is great about everybody making content is once they get over that kind of, I do make it look kind of easy, right? Like there are some people who can make this look like, oh, I could do that. And that's great until you go to do it. And you're like, oh, wait a minute. There's like a level of skill here that like maybe in a walk of life that I

didn't share. But then they start to narrow on the stuff that they get positive attention for, which is oftentimes the things that they are actually good at are genuinely interested in themselves. So I think in those way, we've gotten a lot of citizen journalists or peer journalists, whatever you want to call them, news readers that have helped spread the message well. Then you have the people who really don't understand the difference between positive and negative attention and are just going to say something to get hate stitches because their metric for success is a number, not an engagement and not a likeability and not a like trust thing. And so you see those people sort of like firework up and then go away and firework up and go away.

The thing that I would warn against when it comes to making news content overall is to not just put yourself in reaction to your opposition. A lot of what we see on left-wing news talk is people finding the most atrocious take from somebody who was deeply far right with a small following often and amplifying them into the mainstream because they said this horrible thing about baiting suits at Target and they got stitched by all of left-wing news talk, right? That woman probably would not have had the platform she did if we didn't amplify her, right, we being the collective left.

Same thing happens. And what that does when people do that is it not only platforms this horrible person who's never going to be a big star on their own because the right already has their big stars. But they also invite the fox into our hen house. And now we've been, my FYP was like slammed most of pride with very hateful things that were very disheartening to me and not celebrations. So what I would love to see is us talk to our own and celebrate our own

and amplify our own as opposed to. being in reaction to what our opposition says. Now, it's important to hold, you know, the other side accountable where we can. But as far as amplifying single creators who say terrible things, their goal is just to get amplified. And you're never going to change their mind. And they're not acting from a place of reason. So there's no reason to give them any room. You saw this when Tucker Carlson came off the air. The week that he was off the air, Rachel Maddow was a little bit lost. And I really respect her as a journalist. I mean, she's incredible, right? Undeniably. But she was a little bit lost for like two or three days because her show had gotten so use to being in reaction to Tucker Carlson and all the stupid, horrible things he said.

The next week of her show, it was like the lights came on. She was talking about stuff she was interested in. She was bringing up the two new podcasts she had. She had a different kind of energy because she was getting to report on the things she cared about instead of being in reaction to that far right figure that she had to correct or try to balance. We're not going to correct or balance them. So if you're a news creator and you're looking at like, what should I do? You might get a lot of clicks up front by just sort of doing the outrage farm thing. But you will get a lot more attention. Your videos will have a higher finish rate if you are talking about something that you actually care about and sort of blocking out all the noise. TikTok rewards positive content. So they reward positivity where Facebook and Instagram and Twitter kind of reward division.

It's so hard, both as a person who creates content and also a person who consumers. Zoom's content, that line and that balance is so hard. I found myself in the beginning stages of me on TikTok really watching a lot of videos about, like, exactly like you described, like, I'm angry about this. I'm outraged about this and you should too. And boy, those videos really scratch and itch that I didn't know I had and I don't love that I have. But at the end of the day, like, it's kind of just boring to listen to somebody, be outraged. and be angry about something and be in reaction to something. Tell me what you love.

What are you about? What fills your cup? Like that is what like the outrage might get my eyeballs, but the positivity is what keeps my eyeballs and keeps me interested and helps me form a relationship. I think a big part of TikTok's infrastructure are these people who come on strong with the outrage and get a lot of engagement. But that's just not sustainable because that's not what we're looking for as humans.

I don't think that's what makes us feel good. It's why they say that social media can be bad for your mental health. And a lot of it is the doom scrolling or this outrage farming stuff or feeling you have to be in reaction or you have to correct the world. You're never going to do that. We're never going to do that. So what I have found is best is to be like, what am I adding to the conversation? What do people need to know? Every Thursday, you know, I do good news only and that's very on purpose because I was finding by Thursday,

my audience was exhausted of hearing what had gone on that week because there's always so much kooky stuff going on. So I try to stack the deck that I'm reading from that day to be like, here's something. something super important, here's something political, here's something funny, here's something super important, here's something funny so that we can kind of like make it through in a way that doesn't just suck away all of our hope. And also, I guess it's excited to see what comes in the next day. And then on Thursdays, it's just all good news no matter what. Because folks are exhausted by that point. And exhaustion is how hateful content wins, right? They have endless energy and resources to just bury you in doubt and in sadness. And so,

you could just opt out. You just don't participate. I just don't participate. I don't cover Marjorie Taylor Green. I don't cover Trump because these are things that I can't change anybody's mind on and that are so unusual and that are so overcovered by the mainstream media that I'm like, you guys have more resources than me. You do the heavy lifting on that. What I want to tell you about while you're doing three and a half hours of Trump's plane on the tarmac is the Tennessee three. I want to tell you about this little thing that's happening. That movement, started on TikTok. They wouldn't be here without TikTok and activist TikTok really taking that story as high as it could go while the rest of the media was watching Trump's plane on a tarmac. So I think there's a lot of space for good on TikTok and in news. I think you just got to check yourself a lot and say, why am I saying this? What do I care about this? What can I do about this? And is this my community? Don't pick somebody else's community and then decide that you're going to speak for them. Like, if you're a male creator, don't be like, well, my mission is going to be to uplift the voices of women. Robbie Harvey, that's going to, you know what I mean? That's not going to work.

You know, what is your thing that you can hold all the water for, that you're going to be a helper for, that you're the best person to help explain and evangelize and dig deep on, right? Make sure it's your community, too. Not that we shouldn't be uplifting other communities. Just make sure you're not speaking for that other community when you're building your content? Because it's so, I mean, like, folks on TikTok, so yes to all of that, folks on TikTok, if there's one thing they can sniff out is somebody who is not being authentic. They are so, they are so good at being like, wait a minute, something smells off here. So if you are not authentically, you know, amplifying the, if you're saying like, I'm going to like

talk about for this community, I'm going to speak for them, no. People will sniff that out so quickly. Don't. Yeah. Tell their stories, point people in the direction. Like this is what I do with some of my indigenous friends who are creators. Oftentimes we know that my face, people are going to stop and they're going to read. So when there's something important, I'll be like, hey, I'm going to tell you this story about baby Chanel, but who you actually need to follow for more information on this is XYZ people. And you make sure that those community leaders are centered. You say this is what they said. This is what they said they need. This is how you get it. And when you need more, you go talk to show. me your mask. You go talk to witchy-twitchie. You go talk to bossy. These are the people who are leading this. They're going to have your everyday events. This is their community. They're the, they're the speakers. I'm just here to make sure that y'all go look over there because I know I've got, you know, a lot of attention. So like, let me help direct your attention to somebody who has a smaller platform, but has something really important to say. I think that can be a really great

way that TikTok allows us to collaborate. The duet and stitch feature on TikTok smokes the threads feature on Twitter because you have to put your face on it. So you have to really believe what you're saying when you correct somebody or when you add to the story. And I think that that's really powerful too. Yeah, it's, it does have some features that I think like really help move the conversation forward in some ways that are better than other platforms. Like on Twitter, somebody can quote tweet you and say any old thing, whether it's true or not. You better really, like, if you're going to call somebody out on TikTok, you better really, you know, have your ducks in a row. And when you say something wrong and I've gotten, I mean, you're going to get stuff

wrong. I really try not to. It's rare that I get something wrong or that the story changes very quickly and now it's different from what we thought. And I'll always do corrections because I don't think there's anything to me embarrassed about when you have to do a correction. You should do it as quickly and as efficiently and as honestly as you can is to make those corrections because it is your face out there. So TikTok will get you. They'll hold you accountable. If you say something, I'll give you my example was the Chris Rock slap. I was watching the Academy Awards or whatever it was an award show. And he slept and I had it like this. I had it so fast.

And I got a bunch of messages from people being like, mm, mm, do you really stand by the way you reacted to that? Or do you think that perhaps sensationalizing two black men fighting is not the best way to spend your night? And I was like, you know what? You're so fucking right. Like it was to me, I just saw them as like, actors who were acting crazy. And Tabitha speaks, who was the creator who I first saw the DM from, she was like, girl, stay out of black people's business. And I was like, you know what? You are

absolutely right. You're absolutely right, right? Because I'm seeing them as actors, but this speaks to such a bigger problem that went on as we saw. I took that video right down. It was at 3 million views after like two hours when I took it down. And people were like, are you going to talk about Chris Rock? I'm like, no. So when you're told, you know what I mean? You got to kind of like, I think this is what I appreciate so much about my theater education. For years, for 40 years, I've stood in front of people who have been like, ah, your freckles are weird. You don't get the part. I don't like the way you're standing. You don't get the part, right? Like, I can take a lot of, like, very constructive and even ridiculous criticism and just go, okay, and move on to the next thing. I think you have to be

able to do that if you want to be a TikToker, even if you have the best intentions and you think you told the best story, or even if you think something's not a big deal and you're just talking about it because everybody else is talking about it. If somebody from the community you're talking about says to you, yo, that I don't think that was, I think you might want to re-look at that one or even says, yo, that was a big mess up, anything. Then you have to immediately believe them and adjust from there. And that's how you can kind of like, you know, keep people's trust and continue to try to tell better stories every day. But yeah, that was a good one. That's a great example. And there's nothing because I could have been like, what do you mean?

Everybody's talking about it. No, you know what? If you took the time to tell me that what I did was going to stand, was going to not line up, I, why I'm so grateful to you. Thank you for catching me so early. And there's nothing worse than somebody who has been kind of gently called in, but then is like, no, I'm going to double down. Like, it's not me who's wrong as y'all. Like, don't ever double down. Never double down. It's terrible look. It's so much better. It's so bad. Just, it's so much easier to just put the video on friends only while you figure. it out or whatever you want to do. No issue, no video is worth doubling down. It will, because you doubled down, three million people will triple down. Oh, yes.

Like, don't do it, right? Yeah. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to SportsSlic on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Let's get right back into it. So Vee is part of a community building a different kind of information ecosystem, and they're doing it on TikTok. But all of this is threatened by a potential ban on TikTok. Back in March, when Shō-Zichu, the CEO of TikTok, came before a congressional hearing on the Restrict Act, V was there in their iconic black-brimmed glasses and suit and tie, sitting right behind him. Anytime Congress is doing something that gleefully bipartisan, I'm always like a little bit suspicious, you know, because it's not often.

And it's never really good. I was like, they are gleefully bipartisan right now. So I felt really nervous about that. And I think that they thought that they could blame China. They could look tough on China, that people would accept it, understand the key. community that is on this platform that is so strong. And again, trauma bonded because of the pandemic. This platform has offered, I think it's like five million small businesses, the opportunity to operate. So many people have achieved their dreams on this platform. It wasn't going to fly.

It was not going to go well. And so when I was looking at how they were going to do it, a flat out TikTok ban would be bad for politics. So I was looking at the people who were like, ban TikTok. Well, that's obviously against the First Amendment. I can't do that. And the 14th. So I was like, those won't pass. But this restrict act, I was like, oh, okay, 89 pages of legislation. They really thought about this one. So I printed it out and I spent a couple days like reading it. And I remember the Patriot Act. People think I'm a lot younger than I am. I'm 40 years old. And so I was in college when 9-11 happened. And I remember the Patriot Act and my dad, you know, being very involved and like why this was all happening. And that did not go well for us, allowing the government basically unchecked ability to monitor telecom because of terrorists, right? Because of threats. And so when I heard this coming, and I knew that because I keep up on politics, obviously, because of the channel, I knew that the Patriot Act had kind of expired. And I knew they were going to be looking for another way to gain access to our information. So I'm looking at it.

And it wasn't just TikTok, and it didn't even line item TikTok. It said foreign-owned technology from these different places. It would include game chat. It would include your TikTok communications. It could include encrypted communications from apps like, you know, WhatsApp or telegram or any of these other ones. And I was like, this is the Patriot Act 2.0. And so that was what I went to my senator, Kirsten Gillibrand, with. I was like, this reads like the Patriot Act 2.0.

And she was like, if you, her office was like, if you knew what I knew about security and you really loved your community, you wouldn't be fighting so hard for TikTok. And I was like, then tell me because I'm the best communicator on TikTok. And if the American public and especially my community is in danger, then you should tell me because I will tell them. Because I'm an American first and I'm a TikToker like 19th on my list of things that I am. And so if I'm a part of like a national security threat, I need to know that. I would love to know that I would never do that. They didn't have anything. And I was like, because you don't have anything.

And then I went to AOC's office. And she was like, we've never been briefed. We've never had a national briefing on a threat from TikTok. And I was like, why are they doing this? And she was like, Mark Warner, you know, he's a tech guy. Maybe he was. This is like something that a lot of people want, but it's not something that I think is well written.

She came out and made a TikTok about how she thought it wasn't well written. And I just couldn't, in the amount of it. a time that I spent in Congress with people I had made TikToks with could not get like a straight answer as to why this was happening and why the Restrict Act was so necessary. Mark Warner himself couldn't explain his own legislation well. And so the TikTok hearing came. I knew that I wanted to sit behind Showchu because I wanted there was like nine of those people on that committee that have made TikToks with me.

I wanted them to have to look at him and look at me as a comically recognizable part of TikTok. you are not just talking to him. You are talking to a whole community of people. A lot of marginalized people have built their platform on TikTok that couldn't get that traction anywhere else. You need to see the big picture here and either be more honest with the American people about what a threat it is and why and how you're going to fix it. Provide actual data privacy legislation that we're all asking for or knock it off.

And as you could see after the hearing and after the entire internet started calling the strict act, Patriot Act 2.0, they have since dropped that for now. Yeah, it kind of really came on quick and then it was like, oh, never mind, just kidding. Nobody wanted to touch it after the hearing. That image of you with the hearing, so front and center. I mean, that is like, I think that'll be in history books when people are studying media and tech in 20 years or whatever. Like, that was a real moment. And I think, you know, you talk about marginalized communities, so many communities who have been traditionally left out of conversations have been able to build up platforms and voices on social media platforms like TikTok.

And so if we just say, nah, y'all don't get to do that, I really worry for the ways that those communities will be able to have voices. There have been so many stories that I would have never heard about, if not for TikTok, that were happening in completely different, you know, subsections of the internet or different communities that I'm just not in. And so I really genuinely worried for how we would be able to get news and make news stories happen and make people care about what's going on, if not for platforms like TikTok. I thought it was a real blow to those communities. And when we think about communities, we're thinking about, and we say marginalize, we think about black and brown people, gay people.

No, all kinds of smaller communities. We wouldn't have had the frontline access to the war in Ukraine if we didn't have TikTok. We wouldn't have had frontline access to the women life. freedom movement in Iran if it wasn't for TikTok and all of the Iranians here that were speaking for the folks back home who have been so censored. We wouldn't have a million different stories, the Tennessee three. The George Floyd stuff came from a citizen journalist with cell phone video. It wasn't on TikTok, but TikTok was sort of starting shortly after that and has continued this movement towards justice. It's not just marginalized communities the way we traditionally

think of them, it's communities that don't get leading press. And I think if we've done one thing on TikTok over the last three years, it's really get people educated on media literacy, on civic literacy, on political activism and how to get involved and hold people accountable and see that TikTok is the place that people can be held accountable. And I think it holds a higher trust factor for a lot of folks because it's not owned by Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg. So their whole thing that this like very charming, adorable Singaporean man is the scene. CEO who's young, right, and really knew what he was talking about with some sort of villain. They were like, have you, who would you? This was my question to them about restrict act.

So you say restrict act or they have to sell it. Sell it to who? Sell it to who. Finish the sentence. Sell it to who. Which one of the white boy billionaires gets to buy it, right? Is it Elon Musk? Is it Zuckerberg? Who's got the money to even buy it, right? Is it Bill Gates? Like who sell it to who? So that the American public can have a big picture and You should also be thinking through what does that mean? The two communities that I had like in my back pocket as if this continues to go forward, we need to like activate other marginalized communities, religion, which we don't think of them as marginalized because they're so very loud.

But there are so many religious affiliations that are not Christian that are very thrive on TikTok. Christians thrive on TikTok as well and the military communities. A lot of the military communities were saying that through TikTok, they can see their member who is deployed or who is otherwise engaged way more than they were allowed to before when they only got a certain number of phone calls. Through social media, families are staying connected. And through social media, religions are building online ministries that would not otherwise exist. You're a gay kid in northwest Arkansas and you find a universalist church on TikTok, like the one led by Pastor Sarah. you're going to find a place of inclusion in a path to Jesus that you don't have in your little town. And so we can't give that up either.

And these are the things that I wish. I don't even think Congress was dumb when they did this. They were like, well, do you think the Biden administration is stupid when they backed this? I'm like, I don't. I think that they were ill-advised and uneducated on the communities. And that's the importance of diversifying your staff. Because if you had called me even one time, I would have been able to be like, yo, you're going to get hit. with all of this stuff from the communities who are going to be like, you can't shut me down.

This is providing, you know, life-saving resources to some folks. Yeah. And it's not like, I mean, like you've worked with the White House before. It's not like they don't have your number. They know how to reach you. I was like, y'all called me to make TikToks during the election season. Be, one of my last questions, the question I asked all of my people I interview, like, when you think of the future of news media, like, what do you think?

is the future of news media as it pertains to platforms like TikTok? And are you hopeful? I'm very hopeful. And I actually think my grandma used to say skirts could only get so short before the maxi dress is back in fashion. And I think that's what we're seeing now. You know, some people might say the pendulum swings or something. I think what we saw is like over the last decade or so, news has become the 24-hour news cycle, the divisiveness, the outrage farming, the personalities on cable news television, the conglomerate. of newspapers getting all bought up by these big companies and billionaires. And I think what we're seeing is a return to citizen journalism, to neighbors sharing stories, to local journalism. And I think what we have in store for a fight is not necessarily fighting these big narratives so much as finding the resources to bring back local journalism, small newsletters. We're seeing a lot of success with journalists having substacks in different places where you can follow somebody independent. of the big newspapers and big media companies because we value that and we trust those people.

So I think what we're going to see in the next 10 years is a lot more of a breakup of the power that these big organizations have. And unfortunately, we are already seeing it in the layoffs at BuzzFeed or MTV shuttering MTV News or NPR even or vice. And I think that's horrible. And I think that those are mortal wounds that really hurt us and hurt storytelling and hurt the dream of journalism. But what we're picking up is this independent journalist having a lot more power. And with that power of independence gives you a lot more ability to tell a better truth. And so I think that that's really interesting. And I think that's where we're going.

But I think finding the resources to support that many people is going to be the fight that we're actually in for. Are you ready and geared up for that fight? I am. I am ready and geared up. I also think that it's important for people to change their version of success. I used to talk about this with the chefs. I do not have a dream of being like the nightly news anchor on NBC. I don't have a dream of being Lester Holt.

I have a dream of being me. And being me requires a lot less resources, right, than being a big, huge media news star. Think about that for yourself too. What do you need to be successful to have your niche really heard? How would you support that? What does that look like? Because that might look like $200,000 as opposed to millions of dollars. That might look like having 10,000 really dedicated followers who are so down for the stuff

you talk about as opposed to 10 million nightly viewers for a big cable channel. And I think we're going to see that rise of the micro-influencer of the local newscaster. And I hope that people can find success and peace and space in just getting that successful and not having to maximize, right? Not like, oh, I hit a million followers. So the next thing for me is to try and sell my show. It's a CBS. Like, no, no, no.

Keep your show and keep yourself, you know, right here where you can be successful and give yourself space to breathe also. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

Taray Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. And every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source

the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more,

follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness. from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward.

At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world, like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human.