There Are No Girls on the Internet - What is the ‘Internet Hate Machine?’

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Black women are sometimes called “canaries in the coal mine” for online harms. On this preview of Internet Hate Machine, Bridget Todd charts how harm against Black women online has led to our current social and political landscape.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Bridget Todd, and I am here with my producer, Sophie. Hey, Bridget, hate listeners. So you might already know me from my podcast. There are no girls on the Internet. And as you can probably tell from that title, I make podcasts about the Internet,

specifically how people who are traditionally marginalized, so women, black folks, queer folks, trans folks, sex workers, low-income folks, and the like, have shaped what it means to be on the Internet. And I do that because I know that making sure the contributions of these communities are in the spotlight takes intention. It's already really easy for these communities and their voices to be overlooked unless we make a real point to do so. So it's already hard enough to make sure the experiences

of marginalized people are not overlooked, but when you add in the ephemeral nature of the internet, it becomes even less likely that these voices and their contributions and experiences will be chronicled. The internet moves quickly. Tweets are scrubbed, websites come down, who will remember what happens online if we don't do the way? work of archiving it and building monuments to it. So that's what I've been doing. And I've gotten to do a lot of that work about some of the ways that brilliant, marginalized people have been using the internet to make culture and art and movements,

and it has been so inspiring. But I am sad to say that as true as it is that traditionally marginalized people are doing really cool shit online, it is also true that those same people are the ones who are being targeted online in really scary and infuriating ways. And when it happens, it can feel like it just goes overlooked. You know, we don't really get the opportunity to learn from it or take anything away from it. And as the internet does, everyone just kind of moves on. And you know what?

I don't like that. So on this podcast, Internet Hate Machine, I'm trying to write that wrong. We'll be telling the stories of women who were harassed online, how it happened, why it happened, and what it all means for the rest of us. Because I think there is this real misconception. about online harassment, that it is individual. You know, when you see someone being harassed on the internet, people think, wow, I wonder what she did to be deserving of that kind of treatment.

Or they might think, who, I am glad I am not her. But the truth is, harassment online isn't just individual. It's systemic and it's institutional. And even if we specifically are not the ones on the receiving end of it, it still has really big implications for all of us. The first time that I really saw this play out on Bill Time was with former Saturday Night Live comedian Leslie Jones and her story, which is one of the stories

that we will talk about in depth this season, is one that really opened my eyes. So Sophie, do you remember Leslie Jones? Do you know what happened with her? Yeah, Leslie Jones is one of the best performers on SNL in all-time great, really, just one of the funniest people ever who was kind of at the time.

time somebody who seemed to really have Twitter comedy down and was very much loved universally get absolutely harassed by the internet specifically by one guy who I recall saying it's stuck with me saying that trolling was important and that with like no remorse for the the things that he he did and I'm sure it continues to do to to people to this day. Want to tell me more? Well, absolutely. You are entirely correct. So in all of my research on the way that online harassment works, I've seen time and time again that Milo Yianopoulos, former tech editor at Breitbart News and right-wing shithead, really ushered in that wave of trolling being seen as a form of activism in and of itself. Milo Yianopoulos represents the

tip of the iceberg in a rising tide of hate and abuse in social media, one he's a high. He clearly sees as a noble purpose. Trolling is very important. Trolling is absolutely essential. America needs more trolling because trolls are the only people who tell the truth these days. Many join him on this crusade. Mr. Trolling is important in himself, Milo. Yeah, cool, cool.

And so he really ushered that in as like a vibe where people who were trolling in this way saw it as a form of activism and saw it as a way to reclaim and build political and social power online and cultural power online. And so Leslie Jones, I completely agree with you. She was all-time great on Saturday Night Live. And she was one of those sort of early celebrities who was good at Twitter, you know, that brand of celebrity. She was known for live tweeting things like the Olympics or other big events. And everyone loved her, right? Like she was beloved on Twitter. Her tweets, live tweeting events would be, you know, chronicled in those BuzzFeed, listicles. Like, oh, 30 of Leslie Jones' best tweets about the Olympics, things like that.

It was very of an era. I guess I'll put it that way. And so her tweeting, her use of the platform Twitter, really got great press for Twitter as a platform, right? Like so many articles were spotlighting the way that she had really used the platform to create her brand. You know, she was like winning Twitter. And I feel like at the time, Twitter wasn't having as much of a moment. some of the other social media apps and the content and discourse happening on Twitter was really able to breathe new life into a internet staple that was kind of fading behind some of these

other popular social media platforms. Completely agree. And I would also, side note, I would also add that Twitter would not be what it is if it was not for the labor and creativity and time of black folks showing up on the platform. platform, right? And so that is just Twitter owes a huge debt. I mean, if there wasn't black Twitter, Twitter would be so boring. A thousand percent. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that makes stories like Leslie's so infuriating is that platforms owe a huge financial debt to black women and black folks showing up on their platform and making it someplace people

want to be. And so then to turn around and not really take it seriously when those same voices are threatened and harassed and abused on their platform is a real problem for me. It really illustrates a disconnect that I think that tech leaders have where they are not actually making policies that keep the people that make their platforms great. They're actually not making policies that then allow for those people to show up safely on their platforms. And so, Leslie Jones, when she was cast in the all-female reboot of Ghostbusters, was the target of a really nasty harassment campaign by Milo.

And it got so bad that eventually she left the platform. After she left, Jack Dorsey, the then-CEO-O-of-Twitter, personally intervened. He kicked Milo off the platform and welcomed her back, which, you know, that's great. I'm glad that he did that. But I don't think that you should have to be a celebrity with those kinds of connections in order to get a platform like Twitter to take it seriously when you're being harassed in this way. As you might know, Milo got his start at Breitbart News, which was co-founded by Steve Bannon.

So watching all of this unfold, watching Steve Bannon, this person who empowered and emboldened Milo, who would go on to target Leslie Jones for this racist, sexist, hate campaign online, you know, just for being a comedian who didn't do anything except for be a black woman taking up space on the internet, watching the person who enabled this become a White House advisor to former President Trump, deeply, deeply upset me. I would imagine that that kind of behavior, would make you unfit for public life, not rewarded with a powerful, influential White House position.

And so watching this, it was this wild convergence of culture and the internet and social media and political power. And I thought, this means something. Certainly this means something. And the thing was, we didn't really talk about it. You know, Milo got kicked off Twitter. Leslie Jones came back to Twitter. Steve Bannon went to the White House and then exited the White House.

and everybody, as we do on the internet, just kind of moved on, like it was just a footnote. And I remember watching this in real time and suddenly this thing that I had always felt existing as a black woman on the internet but could never really name or put my finger on, suddenly that came into much sharper focus. The harassment and abuse of women, specifically black women on the internet, I saw it as being at the heart of our politics, our discourse, and being baseless. into the experience of our social media platforms. I realized it's not a bug.

It's a feature. And it's a feature that we don't even really talk openly about. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty. that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So there are a couple of reasons, I think, that I can always feel this, but can never really put a name on it. One is the nature of the internet itself. You know, things move quickly on the internet, and there's not exactly room or time for things like moratoriums or lookbacks to really take an accounting of what happened and why.

When something happens online, we all just kind of move on and forget about it. It creates a situation where things can happen again and again and again and again. Two is just good old-fashioned, racism and sexism. In 1964, Malcolm X wrote, The most disrespected person in America is the black woman. The most unprotected person in America is the black woman. The most neglected person in America is the black woman.

And the experiences that we have online as black women and the way people respond to them or don't respond to them really shows that Malcolm X knew what he was talking about way back when in 1964. I've spent most of my career doing research into the ways that marginalized people show up on the internet and social media. And the research is super clear that black women are disproportionately targeted for things like online harassment, online abuse, threats, and disinformation online.

You know, I take no pleasure in saying this, but it is the truth. Nobody, and by nobody, I mean nobody with power, really cares about black women like that. When harm happens to black women, it is just overlooked. This is not just true on the internet. It's also true in the real world, too. And it feeds into the problem because bad actors, people out there who want to cause harm to others, they know this. They know that they can target black women, test out, and refine and perfect their tactics on black women. And that those women do speak up, nobody with power will really listen or take it seriously.

We've seen this play out time and time again. For instance, I think most people who are online have heard of GamerGate. Sophie, have you heard of this? Unfortunately, yes. And if you have it, brave. We are jealous. Yes. If you haven't heard of GamerGate, I want your life.

I wish I could have a life that resembles yours. But I would say that most people on the internet who were on the internet around the time that happened are familiar with it. So for folks who don't know what that is, it was a time where mostly men online horribly harassed, mostly women online under the guise of being big mad about ethics in gaming journalism. And it got lots of attention, lots of press. You know, I think most people can probably remember it. But how many of those same people know that the same folks responsible for Gamergate for using those exact same tactics on black women years before Gamergate?

Women like Adria Richards, who was targeted for racist harassment online after she tweeted about not really liking a crass joke that she overheard about dongles while she was at a work event? She was horribly harassed, and it was something that I think that people might not even remember. You know, I did an interview with this researcher, Shereen Mitchell. And during our interview, she was like, most people know about Gamergate. Nobody talks about Dongolgate. Here's a bit of my conversation with researcher Shereen Mitchell. So I want to talk a bit.

You mentioned this like preparing women and girls for this moment that we're in now. I want to talk about that moment, particularly as it pertains to things like disinformation. How are you seeing disinformation impact women online, specifically black women and women of color? How are you seeing it play out? Yes, absolutely. And you and I know about women like Shafika Hussein and Anissa Crockett who basically helped to identify, you know, fake accounts pretending to be black women. Now, I was also looking at that as well as looking at Donglegate. And so I want to make sure I mark Donglegate here.

Because when people started worrying about online harassment, they started worrying about it when it was GamerGate and the media got hold. of it. Before Gamergate was Donglegate. So I followed the whole storyline about this black woman who I happened to know who was speaking up about sexism in the tech industry and she had coordinated attacks against her. That was the first moment after our first survey that I realized that not only would coordinate attacks happen, but people would defend those who are attacking her, including people who write books about her and basically say that she was the most, uh, egregious in her behavior, that calling out sexism and racism was egregious. And I was like, donglegay, what is she talking about? And even me as somebody who is like pretty

online, I had forgotten that I had witnessed that go down and I didn't even contextualize it within a larger context of the conversation of online harassment. I had completely compartmentalized it. And so I think it really shows that even people who spend a lot of time on the internet or talk about the internet might not always be able to see what's happening when the targets, when the people at the center of these situations are black women. 100%. I mean, even when you pitch the show to the Cool Zone team, Donglegate was one of the first topic ideas you had. And I was like, oh, donglegate. And I think maybe one other person on our team knew what that was. And I would say that, you know, the Cool Zone media team are

are people who are highly online and should know about this. And yet it's just another thing that we've overlooked in this systemic issue. Exactly. And I think it feeds into how bad the issue is because, you know, tech reporters and folks at places like Wired, I really like a lot of their journalism. But frankly, a lot of the people making content about the internet just don't necessarily have the range to really get into the nitty-gritty of the intersection of race and gender and identity that you would need to really fully account for what happened in these stories.

I just think people don't have the range. If you've an incredibly white newsroom or an incredibly white team, it might be difficult to really get into the intersections and the complexities of how these issues actually do play out. And so they go overlooked and we're not really able to learn from them or prepare for them or take much away from them. Another good example, would be Shafika Hudson, who in 2014 actually reported and called out bad actors using fake accounts to impersonate black women to destabilize internet communities. The women who were at the heart of that being targeted, they spoke up, they reported these things to Twitter and they were basically ignored. So why didn't that get the same amount of coverage or recognition as something like Amhergate?

And if it had, maybe somebody with power might have listened and taken it seriously. And I think maybe things would be different now. You know, for one, Gamergate might have gone down a little bit differently, or consider the fact that six years after Shafika Hudson was reporting people impersonating black folks on Twitter to cause chaos, white supremacist groups used that very same tactic during the racial justice uprisings of 2020 to make it seem as though black activists were calling for people to loot homes and cause violence on the street. Twitter confirmed this. Twitter confirmed that white supremacist groups were impersonating black people on Twitter. They did not, though, explain why, if they knew

this was a tactic years earlier that was being used to destabilize their platforms, why they did fuck all to prevent it and did nothing to prevent it from happening at a larger scale down the line. And zooming out even further, these tactics went on to be the very same tactics that bad actors used to try to destabilize our elections and democracy. A Senate inquiry confirmed in 2019 that that same tactic in personating black people on social media was used by Russian assets in an attempt to spread distrust during the 2016 election, posing as black Lives Matter activists or like black groups on social media accounts online, bad actors tried to inflame anger around things like police brutality in the lead up to the 2016 election. And the inquiry

found that no bigger group was targeted more than black folks online. And they were trying to use drumming up all of this, this chaos and anger as a means of either getting black folks to vote for Donald Trump or to just stay home on election day. And again, had someone with power actually listened when these black women years prior were speaking up about what they experienced, maybe things would be different, but they were ignored. I think that not listening to black women when we speak up about our experiences online has big consequences, not just for the women who are targeted, but for all of us. Because when you zoom out even further, we're seeing tried and true tactics of online harassment

become an animating feature in our political landscape and discourse. And what's worse, it's becoming normalized. You know, black women are sometimes called the canaries in the coal mine for online harms. First it happens to us and then it happens to everyone. And bad actors use the same harassment tactics that they were able to perfect on black women on others. And I would argue that had people with power, you know, leadership at tech companies, policymakers and elected officials, had they actually listened when black women were being targeted by this kind of thing and they spoke up about what they were experiencing, we might not be in our current political situation,

which, frankly, I can only describe as a hellscape. Fair. I mean, think about it. The internet has been completely weaponized. It's near impossible to have any kind of meaningful discourse about any kind of real topic on our largest communication platforms because the leaders who run those platforms have built them to incentivize and amplify lies, garbage, and grifts.

We're more polarized than ever. And the grifters are basically running the show. And the reason I want to talk about this right now is that we're going into a midterm election. where we're seeing historic numbers of women and women of color running for local office. But the sad reality is at this point, serving your community by running for office also means opening you and your family up to being attacked and harassed online

in ways that male candidates just do not have to worry about. I mean, women like Congresswoman Jaya Paul, where a man went from sending her angry, threatening emails to showing up outside of her house with a gun. Because we know these threats may start online, but they do not always stay online. This climate creates a barrier for women. whether they're running for office or serving their communities by working as election workers or poll workers.

We have a national shortage of election workers heading into an election because who would want to do any of that if it means they're opening themselves and their family up to threats, intimidation, and harassment? You know, if you watch the January 6th hearing, you probably remember the way that two black poll workers, Shea and Ruby Freeman, were personally attacked by Trump and Rudy Giuliani, who baselessly, publicly, and repeatedly accused these women of tampering. with votes in the 2020 election, until angry people descended on the home of their elderly grandmother, and they had to flee for their own safety. And these are just everyday women. It's not like they had a security detail. The whole point is to silence women and to keep us from participating in civic and public

life, to create such a high cost to doing so that it just isn't worth it. And we haven't really had a real examination of how the harassment of marginalized people online is a big part of how we got here. So why not do that now? Let's not just move on from it as I know that we're so apt to do on the internet. Let's examine it so we can learn from it. So on this season of internet hate machine, we'll be exploring how online violence and harassment has led us to this political and social moment that we're in. And don't worry, we'll also be diving into what can be done about it. And I know it's going to be a wild ride, but I hope that all of y'all are down to take this ride with me. Internet hate machine is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, check out our website, coolzonemedia.com, or find us on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcast presents Soccer moms.

So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school. Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip, just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.

With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they hit a bogo. Well, then you got it. Listen to soccer moms on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be? I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered Conversations from Night Sweats to Food.

to scheduling sex. Wait, what sex? Is it just me? Or does every woman my age want to look at Pinterest instead of having sex sometimes? They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Tiana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.