There Are No Girls on the Internet - What’s fueling the moral panic around TikTok challenges? In part, Facebook.

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

From National Rape Day to the Slap A Teacher Challenge, we’re hearing a ton about dangerous “challenges” and “trends” that start on TikTok. Disinformation researcher Abbie Richards joins to talk about what happens when concern about social media turns into a full blown moral panic.   Follow Abbie on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tofology    Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Say hello at [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Just a quick heads up, this episode briefly mentions both suicide and sexual assault. What you'll notice with a lot of the challenges is that they tend to, on some level, usually focus on an issue that we are, as a society, feeling a lot of anxiety about sexual assault. school shootings, suicide and mental health, assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties that we as a society have. There are no girls on the internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the internet. National Slap a Teacher Day. National School Shooting Day. The Blackout Challenge. You've probably heard of these challenges that supposedly originate on TikTok, encouraging young people to harm themselves,

others, or spread panic about harm being done to them. But what's behind these challenges? And what happens when concern around social media platforms like TikTok turns into a moral panic around technology? To find out more, I turned to friend of the show, Abby Richards. Well, Abby, it is so nice to have you back. You are a friend of the show. We love being able to talk to you.

For folks who may not be familiar with you, tell us who you are. Yeah, my name's Abby Richards, and I'm an independent mis and disinformation researcher who focuses on TikTok. You are someone I know that I can always count on for like a sobering, kind of like clear-headed breakdown of what's happening on TikTok, which I think is so important because the platform can be so, it can just be information overload coming at you all the time, you know, so it's like nice to have someone who can actually wades through it and break it down? I am relieved to hear that you feel like I am clear-headed. I don't necessarily. I look at TikTok and it's just so vast and huge that even as someone who studies it professionally, sometimes

I'm like, I don't have a full understanding. I'll never have a full understanding of this chaotic mess of an app that we have to deal with and all of its beauties and downfalls and little niche cultures. but I try my best. So I appreciate you saying that. I think you do a great job. Actually, that's like a great place to start, which is that you really like TikTok is your platform. It's the platform that you study professionally

in terms of disinformation research. And it's also where you make a lot of your content educating folks about disinformation and conspiracy theories. But you're also someone who is pretty honest about some of the dangers and downfalls inherent in the app. What does that like to sort of have this, this platform that is in some way so rich and allows you to tell stories and reach people and educate folks in such interesting ways. But on the other hand, does have its flaws, should be looked at

with a little bit of scrutiny like any other platform. It's a love-hate relationship. I mean, I'm the first to admit that I benefit from TikTok. I mean, I have a platform there. I've found that it's been an incredibly useful tool in educating people and creating resources where people can go to learn about these very complex issues. Like there is room for nuance on TikTok and there is room for learning on TikTok. That is not to say that it has no pitfalls whatsoever. There are so many strengths that TikTok offers as far as communication and education and community building.

And then there's also so many weaknesses when it comes to how the algorithm chooses for you what you see and the types of content that go viral the most easily and the types of rhetoric that encourages. So I see both sides of the coin. The ubiquity of social media platforms like TikTok have given rise to panics around so-called challenges and trends, trends that stoke fear in young people and their parents. Now, this kind of thing is nothing new. When I was a kid, we grew up freaked out about things like Razor Blades and Halloween candy or gang members flashing their headlights to mark you for an attack. But with the rise of social media,

these kinds of trends can spread much more quickly than they ever could just being whispered about in the cafeteria. In April of last year, I saw videos circulate on TikTok responding to videos calling a day in April national rape day. Basically, everyone was upset and panicked about alleged videos declaring that on this day, rape was legal.

Only a TikTok spokesperson said that no such video ever really existed. there were only users making videos responding with decrying National Rape Day or sharing warnings and tips on how to stay safe. And in responding, they were only legitimizing this hoax. From kids being kept home from school to wasting law enforcement's time and resources, panic around these challenges that start online can create real-world disruptions. I know the very first time I ever encountered a sort of dubious, quote-unquote, challenge, or like thing on TikTok.

I think it was a national rape day. That was giving you, I guess. Yeah, that was the first time. And, you know, I went for a gender justice organization. So when I saw that, my first instinct was, this is horrible. We need to reach out to TikTok. We need to make sure that, you know, they take this down. They need to know about this.

But then, you know, looking at it, it was a situation where I almost kind of got a little bit duped by something that maybe wasn't a legitimate, organically grown, quote-unquote, challenge, or day or, you know, content stream on the platform. But I, in talking about it, was sort of helping to legitimize it, helping to make it something that maybe felt like a legitimate thing, even though it wasn't. Yeah. National Rape Day, for those who don't know, it was allegedly April 24th. And the idea going around was that there was some group of essentially evil men out in a group chat somewhere planning to all go out and rape on that. I believe it was a Saturday, April 24th.

And aside from the fact that that is really just not at all how sexual assault works and is not how it's perpetrated against victims. it was also something that we really just awareness videoed into existence. There was no evidence of this initial threat at all, but because everybody went, oh, well, it might be a threat. It might be a problem. Might be a problem. Then they all start turning around and sharing it everywhere just as a warning.

And then we end up in a position where millions and millions of people felt afraid for their lives that day. Like, people didn't leave the house. And we saw the same thing just, like, happen all over again just a few months ago with the National School Shooting Day, where tons of kids were then absent from school because of a threat that no one could ever even find. Yeah. I mean, I, I, National School Shooting Day, I saw that on my local news. Like, that, like, was, as you said, like, awareness, quote unquote, into existence. And I think you're absolutely right that I imagine that for some of the people who are sharing, this, they're doing it out of genuine concern for wanting to keep people safe. But maybe it's difficult to see that in doing that, you're actually helping to create more of a panic that wouldn't be there otherwise. I do think that it's like people just out of an abundance of caution trying to raise awareness, but not realizing that if we all collectively do that, A, it spreads panic. And

B, it can be incredibly disruptive, right? Like if everybody keeps their kids home from school because they're afraid of this national school shooting day that they saw on television, that's incredibly disruptive for the school day. And, you know, we should really give pause to the fact that platforms like TikTok can be this force where you can have these real world disruptions just from something that starts as like a rumor or a fabrication. Yeah, absolutely. I think the disruptions are worth, like, accounting for when we create pay. and also the way that they tend to perpetuate our misconceptions about oftentimes violence and mental health. What you'll notice with a lot of the challenges is that they tend to, on some

level, usually focus on an issue that we are as a society, feeling a lot of anxiety about sexual assault, school shootings, suicide and mental health, assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties that we as a society have and we need to be doing a lot of work to address those like major large enormous issues and then this challenge comes along and what an easy and simple answer it provides of like oh they're just doing this because they saw a TikTok about it it's it's not a massive societal problem that's been around for years and has existed long before the emergence of social media. No, this is because of kids these days on social media. Oh, it's so true. And I think especially when you look at the fact that so many of these challenges

are based around, like, localized around youth or schools, I think we're in this moment where we're, as you said, having this like national existential crisis of what's happening in our schools, where people are really, you know, stoking a lot of panic around it. I'm sure that it's probably not a super time to be a public school educator right now. And I think it's no wonder when we're seeing all of these challenges purport to be localized around something happening at schools because it's an anxiety that we're not really talking honestly or thoughtfully about and other kinds of discourse. And so this very simplistic thing of like, oh, it's the kids on those phone. She's always on that phone. That's what's happening. It's such a simple way to talk about something that is sometimes big and

scary and complex to talk about. Yeah, it really offers a very similar thing to a conspiracy theory. You take a big problem, something like, for instance, the assaulting of teachers while they're working, which should not be happening under any circumstances. They are teachers. They should not be assaulted. But they are. Like, they do face violence in their classrooms. And then we say, oh, well, it's part of this TikTok challenge. It's slap a teacher month. challenge. And that doesn't actually help teachers to stay safe because we're not addressing any of the actual issues that have led to them having to work in an unsafe environment. We're just pointing a finger at a social media trend that we can't even find.

Yeah. I mean, and that's such a good segue into how this conversation. So I learned about these fake challenges from following you. Then I got this. Yeah. I guess I would say I almost learned how to like self-regulate around them that like it's entirely possible that it's just a fabrication and that in getting it in amplifying it I am helping it grow like it kind of like inspired me to take a moment to think through the implications because yeah that national rape day thing like it I was moved by that but your work really helped me put it in perspective I guess I'll say oh thank you that means a lot that That whole week, like, really is what ended up. I was already doing a lot of TikTok misinformation research, but it really ended up pushing me full time because me and my coworker, Olivia, were so stressed at having to watch millions of people believe something

that there was no reason for them to be panicking over. And, I mean, there was also just so much uncritical news coverage of it, and that is a huge part of the problem, on critical news coverage and law enforcement, and sometimes when they're involved school boards as well, amplifying these without evidence. Let's talk about that because, you know, I mentioned that I saw on my local news a segment about school shooting day.

What do you think the role of local, especially local news media is in spreading these kinds of dubious challenges? Like when they just sort of uncritically report on it, you know, maybe, like they almost never include someone, saying, actually, we have no evidence that this is actually a real thing. It's just this sort of uncritically, like, here's what people are upset about. We don't know. In what role do you think that news media plays and helping these panic spread? I mean, they really help to start lighting the fire, especially when it comes to, like, if the thing is just on TikTok right now,

when it comes to getting adults involved in the conversation, then the parents involved and law enforcement involved and start getting that information outside of just a single echo chamber and really spreading into other ecosystems. I think local news plays a huge role in that. And one of the tactics, as you kind of said, one of the tactics they use, and we also see as a click-baked stories is that they don't say, like, there is a hopes happening on TikTok and we can't find evidence for it. They just say TikTok is full of claim saying that April 24th is National Rape Day without, that's the headline.

So, right, a lot of people aren't even going to read the story even if they did include a disclaimer that like they, there's no evidence of this. But the whole story just relies on like, well, people on TikTok are saying this. It's like, can you please fact check it? Critical coverage, please. And like that should be that should be the bare minimum, right? Like I think about that quote. I'm sure I'm going to butcher it because I'm awful at quotes. But what is?

It's not a reporter's job. If someone says it's raining, it's a reporter's job to look out the window and determine if that is true, not just print that somebody said it's raining. And I guess I wish that local media did, and not all media, but I guess I see local media really as a, you know, culprit here. I wish they would do a little bit better of a job. And I wish, you know, oftentimes these stories, they rely on law enforcement. and it'll be, it'll be like maybe somebody contacted law enforcement and it'll be like, they'll report it as law enforcement is aware of the situation.

And by including that, it adds no further, you know, fact check of what's going on. But I do think it adds a level of like, well, of legitimacy. Well, it's like, oh, well, law enforcement is aware of the situation. It could be that law enforcement has no, has not been able to verify any of these claims as fact. But they don't really say that. I think the way that they use law enforcement sometimes is incredibly damaging, I think, to the truth. Yeah.

Oh, you'll see them insert a Facebook post or a tweet from some police department somewhere. And that gives legitimacy to the claim, too, because the police department addressed it via social media, and now they can hyperlink that in their stories. And I say this also coming from, I have a deep love for local journalism. I grew up with a mother who was the editor of our local town newspaper and was always hanging out in the office. Like I love, like, yes, give me more small town journalism. I think a lot of the problems stems from when we aren't funding it and we don't give it the credit it deserves so that they are encouraged to write cheap stories like this. they don't have the time to actually give it the due diligence that it deserves.

Yeah, I'm so good that you mentioned that because I do think it's an issue of like underserving local media. And we do have like a critical crisis in this country of just the decimation of local, especially journalism and media. And that's so important. Like that's how you find out what's going on in your kids' school. That's how you find out like what's happening in your neighborhood, like on your block. And so the way that we've just underserved it and under-supported it is horrible. But I also

think a real, is really indicated by what we're talking about today that, you know, you put up a quick, cheap story that doesn't really get the facts, but does get people panicked and upset. Like, I get it. Yeah. In this capitalist economy, I totally get it. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite, unhumor me with Robert Smy and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and

Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to Then add supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety.

I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill. and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy

because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain. brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you.

I have watched some survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion of the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of, ha, who. Again, we are experts.

So make sure to tune it at a pod meets Twitter. world for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Tworl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Edward back. Who's to blame for the panic around TikTok challenges? Well, unsurprisingly, partially Facebook. Last month, the Washington Post reported that Facebook and TikTok were in what they called a bare-knuckle fight for younger users. Facebook hired targeted victory, one of the country's largest Republican consulting firms,

to orchestrate a nationwide campaign to turn the public against TikTok. The Post published a series of damning emails about how targeted victory, working on behalf of Facebook, tried to stoke controversy around TikTok by placing op-eds critical of TikTok and newspapers in major news markets, and stoking anger around so-called dangerous TikTok challenges and trends. Writing, Targeted Victory urged partners to push stories to local media, tying TikTok to dangerous teams, trends in an effort to show the app's purported harms. Any local examples of bad TikTok trends or stories in your markets, a targeted victory staffer asked.

Dream would be to get stories with headlines like, from dances to danger, how TikTok has become the most harmful social media space for kids. The staffer wrote, they even circulated a Google Doc called Bad TikTok Clips, with links to pretty dubious local news stories that cite TikTok as the origin of dangerous teen trends, despite the fact that some of those trends actually originated on Facebook. Now, I hate this tactic, because essentially it's Facebook intentionally trying to stoke fear and panic for their own corporate interests in a way that takes attention away from actual social media issues that really do need scrutiny.

So I have to ask, I mean, I, in the reporting from the Washington Post, I was, I guess, a little surprised to see that so many of these TikTok. stories, these negative sort of so-called challenges and things, were actually being planted by Facebook slash meta's PR firm targeted victory, where they were getting folks to write op-eds and important congressional districts about the dangers of TikTok on youth, how they would get local media to run these stories of these dangerous so-called challenges, when in fact there was a lot of evidence that some of these challenges actually, if they started anywhere that, like, the rumor might maybe started on Facebook to begin with, yet Facebook is really invested in making

TikTok look bad. You know, it's one of those things where it's like my least favorite story in all of tech journalism to cover is like two big companies going at it. But it does seem to be there's some level of that here, yeah? Yeah, I mean, and I can understand why Facebook, I'm so sorry, meta. Meta. Meta feels threatened by TikTok. I mean, they're like the most downloaded app for last three years running. They're clearly offering something that people enjoy and are arguably addicted to. I feel like I might be a bit addicted to it. And, you know, young people are gravitating towards it. So I understand why they would take that approach in trying to smear it in the public's eye as some sort of dangerous threat. I just, I don't think that they're entirely

wrong. I think that there's a lot of issues with all different social media platforms. It's just dangerous that TikTok isn't challenges that nobody is doing. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, do you think that in inflating some of these nonsense dangers that they say are on the platform of TikTok were actually overlooking some of the legitimate dangers that could be on platforms, all social media platforms, but TikTok especially, like, you know, there are so many things that happen on TikTok where I'm like, well, that's probably not great. Like, young people over, young people trying to diagnose themselves with mental issues and then, you know, companies that sell, like private companies that sell medication for those issues, advertising to them on the platform,

like they're all kinds of legitimate. TikTok is its own can of worms. Yeah. And so I think like there are legitimate. things to be concerned about. And I think when we allow for the conversation to be dominated by things that are just nonsense, we're not talking about the things that are legitimate concerns. Yeah. Like, I've done research into how engaging exclusively with transphobic content on TikTok

pushes a user into this far right rabbit hole where they're also exposed to, first of all, more transphobia, but also homophobia and misogyny and racism and white supremacy and anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories and cause to violence, like all of those things can also be found on TikTok. And I think that the ideas that TikTok is able to place in your brain are probably more dangerous than challenges that it is supposedly encouraging you to do. That's at least how I interpreted is like the way that it impacts our society at large and what we believe and how we approach our beliefs, that has way more significance than whether or not kids are holding their breath for as long as possible. Yeah, it's, I mean, I'm definitely addicted to TikTok, dude.

I wish I didn't have to say this, but like, I'm on it way too much. I don't make TikToks myself, but I can scroll for hours and hours. And it is true that, like, I, I'm an adult. So, like, my brain is fully formed. And when I see things or I'm like, well, that doesn't sound right. Or like, this seems to be pushing a dangerous narrative or a narrative that we should at least be concerned about. I'm able to just scroll up and know that. But I wonder with such a young user base, if young people were seeing that same thing

that I'm seeing that I'm, you know, old enough to be like, okay, well, this is obviously not true. We're like, this is dangerous. That's not some kind of, that's not a narrative I want to engage with further. I wonder, like, yeah, what it, like, what dangerous things are you? young people being exposed to and steeped in and thus being walk it down on a line of engagement to sort of get further into. You know, those are all legitimate questions about what's happening on TikTok. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you think about like how popular conspiracy theories are

on TikTok and how conspiracy theories, if we stop looking at them as individuals, we look at them as a way to think about the world and how if you engage with one conspiracy theory video, you're more likely to then be like given more conspiracy theory videos. And it's not just teaching you that conspiracy theory. It's teaching you how to think about the world in that way. And that's not helpful for building, you know, a society full of engaged political citizens who want to make the world better. Because, you know, conspiracy theories fundamentally just push you to be less politically active and not really want to solve problems, just blame an outgroup for them.

So I worry about that when it comes to how it teaches younger people to think. Yeah, that's a really, really good point. And I would say sort of on the flip side of that, one thing I had, one narrative I've seen on TikTok a lot that's really being driven by young people that I, chef kiss, love, this idea of pushing back on climate doomism that I, like, the young people on TikTok, TikTok pulled me out of the consp- like, I'm not even going to say a conspiracy.

Like, I formally believed that it was too late to act on climate. And I now have come to see, thanks to young people on TikTok, that I was actually guilty of almost kind of like a different kind of climate disinformation, right? Because like the same way that it's climate disinformation to say that climate change is a hoax, it's also not necessarily true that it's too late. We can't do anything. And I think that like the way that folks have used that platform to push back against that idea has completely brought me back from the brink in a way that I didn't know I was already at. I was at. I am so happy to hear you say that because that has been a huge thing that we've been pushing for at ECO Talk and getting creators to push that sort of messaging because you're right.

It is, you know, there's several different types of climate change disinformation. There is denialism. There's also distraction and delay tactics. but there's also doomism. And when you start thinking about climate change with the framework that it's too late to do anything, then you start going, well, why bother? And fossil fuel companies are going to absolutely love that. That works, that plays right into their hands. Because if it doesn't matter, then like, why not just keep doing all the fossil fuel burning anyways? Yeah. It's such a good point that, like, it does remind me a lot of what you said about conspiracy theories, giving into them, makes it okay to not act.

It makes you less engaged, not more engaged. And that particular mistruth around climate, climate doomism, gave me the license to not act for a while. And I'm so glad that you and folks at EcoTalk are really doing a lot of work to change the conversation. Because if you give into the reality that, like, it's not too late, there is still time. We could be doing so much.

that is what gets you in a headspace to be motivated to act and to lean in and to check in, not disengage. Absolutely. And I see that sort of that narrative being applied to other realms as well, like, you know, not giving up in the fight for reproductive rights and not giving up in the fight for racial equality. I think that we see a lot of that pushback on TikTok. It is a good space for that. And that's, again, like, we're back in this position of like,

oh, God, there's so many goods happening on that app and there's so many bads. And I guess it's just kind of a microcosm of the world in general. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David, Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcast than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-I-Hart.

Hey, everyone. It's Ryder Strong and Will Fidel from PodMeets World. And now the Podmeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season from the final attempts at

gameplay, to the desperate pleas of finalists, to a bunch of ha-hoo, ha-hoo, ha-hoo, ha-hoo, again, we are experts. So make sure to tune to to the Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to Pod Meets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience.

We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression, and the brain implant that saved his life.

What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens

when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So if you've ever wondered, I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast, that I have great news for you. We just launched our brand new newsletter where I'm going to be writing about things I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I promise we will never spam you. You can subscribe to our newsletter at tangoity.com slash newsletter.

And it's going to be like a useful newsletter, I promise. You can also support the show by checking out our merch store at the podcast. tangoity.com slash store. Let's get right back into it. When people give in to things like moral panics, conspiracy theories, and conspiratorial thinking, it actually encourages us to check out. It provides a seductive reason to just stop caring

because you don't really feel like anything that you could possibly do would actually make a difference if you've already lost. You mentioned reproductive rights. It's so interesting. The day that that leaked draft of the Supreme Court opinion came down almost immediately, you know, all of the reproductive rights disinformation folks I know circled the wagons.

And the number one narrative that we saw almost immediately was abortion is illegal starting. This means abortion is illegal starting now, starting today. And that's not true. You know, that was just a draft decision. Who knows what's going to happen. But it's so interesting that the piece of disinformation, misinformation, misinformation that circulated instantaneously was that abortion is now illegal in the United States. And how if you were someone who had an appointment to get an abortion the next day, you might be motivated to stay home.

You might be motivated to say like, okay, well, I guess that means I no longer had this appointment. Or I guess that means that I'm out of options. And I'm sure that people who want to criminalize abortion in this country would love it if that's how you felt. Because it's going to, you know, keep you from exercising your constitutionally protected rights to an abortion. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, getting people to give up and not fight back does make their job whatever they're trying to push for. It does make it a lot easier. That is so true.

You know, one of my last questions for you, one of the things I, in the Washington Post reporting about TikTok and meta, it seems like young people done with Facebook. You know, I can't say that I blame anybody for just being done with the, done with, you know, the platform. Why do you think that is? Why do you think, you know, they're just flocking from Facebook onto other platforms like TikTok? Oh, God, I think there's so many factors. And I would need a lot of data to, like, back up any hard claims that I made. I still see some young people using Instagram, but not so much. Like, really nobody is using Facebook.

And I think it probably speaks to, like, the ways that we use. social media either as entertainment or as communication and how that's shifting. Like Facebook was originally built for keeping up with your friends and then kind of added in pages and sharing. And it's more about that network with this larger group that you've created, where something like TikTok is more personalized feed that gives you what you're interested in. and then you can share that with your friends if you want, but I think it's just more personalized.

And it just needs a different need. Yeah, I think that's, I think you think you're on to something. I know for me, Facebook, and to a lesser extent, Instagram, but a little bit as well, it just feels very scummy now. It just feels like it's full of ads for products that maybe are not super legit. I got totally suckered by a Facebook ad to buy a, this purse and I kept seeing these ads over and over and over again. I'm actually going to grab it for you so you can see. Give me one second. Yes. Okay. Okay. I love this. Okay. So I saw ads

were following me all around for this purse. I eventually bought it. It took a month to come. Look how tiny this purse is. It's small. That's so small. The handle is so outrageously big. Exactly. And all I could think was, is Facebook just a platform for scams now? Market play scams and stuff. I just felt I will never buy another thing that I see on Facebook ads ever again. And it just made me feel that platform was just a place for scammy marketing. And I guess I, certainly there's some of that on TikTok as well in other platforms. But I guess I just feel like Facebook is I don't know what it wants to be. I don't know what role it's trying to play anymore in my life. Well, it was an Instagram is really trying to become

literally a shop. Like they really are just trying to sell you things. And the whole Instagram this is just my theory, but the switch from Instagram to TikTok in popularity, I think is really interesting. And it says something about our drive or desire for authenticity in our relationships with, like, influencers. Because the Instagram influencers are very aesthetically nice to look at. Like, that's all well and good. But TikTok is like having a FaceTime conversation with somebody.

Even if they're never going to hear what you have to say back, like, millions of people might be looking at their face, but it feels so intimate and really it does let your personality shine through. That's not to say pretty privilege is not a huge part of who goes viral, but personality also matters. Yeah, I've noticed this. And it's also one of those reasons why I think that people who had, were like nailing it in terms of being influencers on Instagram by being so aesthetically pleasing. That doesn't really translate all the time. Like you still like on TikTok, you need to be charming or funny or engaging or authentic. People have to want to connect with you.

Just being hot doesn't really cut it. Again, there are people who like their TikToks will be, you know, do numbers just because they're good looking. So that certainly happens on the platform. But I do think it's a platform where you have to sort of bring a different side of yourself. And I think it's really challenged a lot of people who have made their, their platform on something else. That's something aesthetically pleasing.

Yeah. It's just a different type. of marketing. You're not marketing what's a pretty picture now. And you're more marketing, your personality and how you can sell something using your personality, which, you know, might have more room for exploitation. So that's fun. I know. Either way we cut it were being exploited, whether it's like, oh, because we look a certain way or because our genuine personalities being exploited to push whatever the hell. Like, it's a exploitation. It's exploitation no matter how you slice it, I'm sure. It's just like, is my,

are my looks better for selling clothes or is my personality like better for selling bang energy? Also, wait, this is just quick pivot to the challenges again, because there's a statistic that I need to give you because I brought it here and I just have to share it because it's just too interesting. So do you know the blackout challenge? I do. Like this challenge that supposedly kids are seeing a TikTok that is encouraging them to hold their breath until they can pass out. So and a lot of the news coverage about it will point to the death of there's two instances of young children dying because of this sort of like holding your breath challenge. But what is also interesting is that.

a CDC study identified 82 probable choking game deaths among kids age 6 to 19 from 1995 to 2007, which is long before TikTok ever was a part of the picture. There are far more happening as this game that's part of our culture beyond just what's being told to us on social media. And I think that's so interesting. and I'm obsessed with that statistic now. Yeah, it's such a clarifying statistic. I'm in my 30s and we certainly had, I think we called it the choking game, right?

Like, it was a, yeah, that's what we just called it. This was before TikTok or social media was ever a thing, this idea that it's a new danger that is being presented to children on their phones. It's just not true. Yeah. Like literally 82 children died between 1995 and 2007 from the, this game. It's horrific. Like, it's a completely unnecessary death and not a healthy thing for us to do to our brains, even if we don't die. But it's not new. And I think a lot of these panics often

center around something that, like, is a much larger problem than not new. Oh, yeah, they're not new. And it really just collapses these big, complex issues into such simplistic terms. That's fascinating. I couldn't believe I was lucky enough to even find that statistic. I didn't know that it existed. But I do feel like it sheds light on how we frame our social media challenges as somehow new when they've been around in our culture for decades. Absolutely. I'm so glad that you. That is fascinating. It's, yeah, very, very sad, very fascinating. The challenge I've been dealing with all day is the Labello challenge, which you probably haven't seen yet. No.

Oh, it's in, it's all in French. It's a TikTok challenge. I'm using air quotes. That you use like Labello chapstick every time you feel sad. And then when you run out to the end of the tube, you do. you take your own life. Oh. And it's going, like the ministry of the interior tweeted about it last week.

Like they tweeted and which gave so much credibility to this challenge that completely misunderstands why somebody would take their own life. Like they are not killing themselves because social media. said to do it at the end of their chapstick tube. They're doing it because they're in pain and don't feel like they have somebody to go to. And it's so infuriating. And I've been this is what I've been doing with like all day

trying to debunk it and understand like where it came from. It's just like, you wonder why your kids won't go to you about your feelings. But then your understanding of mental health seems to be so limited that you think that they would kill themselves because of the TikTok trend. And it's like I kind of get why they feel like they can't talk to you. And like if you were a young person who was struggling with suicidal ideation, and this is what the adults in your life or in your atmosphere were telling you that they believe about what you might be feeling, I can imagine that being incredibly isolating.

And, you know, and again, it kind of goes back to what you were saying that it's probably so much easier to think, you know, youth suicide is being fueled by this social media trend and then have it end there as opposed to, you know, youth suicide and youth mental health issues are being fueled by a complex network of issues that are systemic and personal that we need to talk about and solve. Why get, why, you know, grapple with that, which is complex and big and scary and complicated and, you know, feels unsolvable? But you can just be like, it's the phones. It's the technology. It's, yeah, it provides a very simple answer. And I mean, also, the way that social media, and this is for all platforms, like, I think we saw this a lot with Tumblr, we're seeing it a lot with TikTok, and they become

spaces where people can talk about their struggles with mental health and things like, you know, suicidal ideation, things like eating disorders. And it's this weird gray area because it's not necessarily against like the guidelines of the platform. And it's potentially a space where they can find support and find community. But it also might be glorifying those types of behaviors. It might be making them more prevalent. It's just one of those things that we don't know yet. and we still need a lot more research into. But it's certainly not like black and white, good and bad, like that people on social media do have spaces where they are talking about these things.

And then imagine that the adults get wind of some meme you made about how you're feeling horrible. And their response is to just like take away your phone and take away. the place where you do have community, that makes me nervous. Yeah, I mean, it really goes back to what you were saying about how these platforms, on the one hand, they can be such a great place to build community and have these conversations around discovery and all of that and feel less alone, but that they also can present this like very dangerous landscape as well. It's like, you really, it's, I don't know what we do with that. It feels very unsatisfying, but I guess that's what it is.

Yeah, I don't have a very satisfying answer. for that. Sometimes the community is simultaneously like providing support and being toxic. And what do you do? I don't know. That's why I'm like more research, I guess. Yeah. Well, I feel like more research is like always like a good place to start maybe. Always definitely a good starting ground. If you don't know the answer at all, you're like, can we at least commission some research on it? Well, I'm glad that folks like you are, doing that research, you know, I'm obviously so grateful for you. I'm so excited that you're working on your thesis. Thank you. When I'm done, I'm going to make you, maybe I'll come back on

and be like, can I just read my whole thesis? Do you want to hear all 100 pages? Open invitation. I definitely do. So let's keep me posted on when that's done. We'll do. Definitely will do. Abby, where can folks follow all the amazing stuff that you're up to? Yeah, I'm on TikTok at Topology. I'm on Twitter at Abby ASR and Instagram at Abby SR. And I guess wait for my thesis to drop. We're talking about it like it's a mixtape. It is.

I'm going to put the whole thing on SoundCloud. Yeah, the hottest thesis of the summer. Air horns. out my SoundCloud. It's me reading all 100 pages in monotone to you. And now it is time for another installment of our newsletter column, Dear Internet, where I take your internet questions, conundrums, etiquette concerns, and answer them to the best of my ability. So if you want to get more of these, subscribe to our free newsletter at tangoity.com slash newsletter, where you can submit your questions and you might even hear them on the air.

Here's today's question. Dear Internet, my sister is obsessed with filters and apps like FaceTune. When she posts pictures on social media, I barely recognize her to the point where it's a running joke with our friends and family. We joke with her about it, but, you know, to each their own. Except when she posts pictures of us together, she facetunes and filters everybody in the photo, including me. Recently, she posted a family picture on Instagram, and she added, egregious filters to everybody, including my pre-teen daughters. Now, it's one thing if my sister doesn't mind stickers behind her back regarding her use of filters.

But do we all have to be included every time she posts the picture? So I wanted to share this letter because she is not alone. According to research by Dove, 85% of the girls that they surveyed had to use an app like FaceTune to change the way they look in photos by the age 13. And in some cases, young people are even getting cut. cosmetic surgery to look more like their digitally face-tuned and filtered selves that keep in mind don't actually exist. And I also think this is an interesting question because I don't really think there's a hard

and fast answer around it. To be clear, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of any adult filtering and face-tuning a child because we should let kids be kids. We should let them understand that their looks are not everything. But when we're talking about adults, I think it gets a little bit murkier. Now, to be clear, I have not always. always been above using a little bit of a filter or face tune every now and then. You know, if you've got a big zit in a picture and you want to just zap it out, I've done that.

And I also think I was really using Instagram a lot during this era of the Instagram influencer when there was this real pressure, I think, for all of us to look perfect and airbrushed on Instagram because that was what the app was telling us got engagement. And so if you wanted to get a lot of engagement on the app, the best way to do that was to post a really polished filtered photo of yourself. And I'm not going to sit here and act like I have not done that. at myself. But as I've gotten older and really like these kinds of apps have played less and less of a role in my life, I really don't care that much anymore. I'm not going to sit around and

face tune and filter a bunch of photos. And also, I just think it's important to show up as yourself. You know, this is what a 30-something-year-old woman looks like. You know, why lie about that? But I also think we need to leave room for the fact that not everyone feels that way. I don't begrudge anyone using any of the apps at our disposal to look and feel their best. I think it's a really a personal thing. And so that said, the idea that it's a personal thing, I think it really warrants a frank conversation with your sister. You know, she might very well see face tuning and filtering your photo when she posts them as being polite. You know, oh, if I'm going to touch up my photo, it's rude to not touch up my sister's photo as well. Maybe she feels bad about the idea of posting

a photo where in her mind she has perfected herself and she's keeping you natural. So I think that it's important to not assume malintent around why she's filtering your picture so much. But I also think it's a personal thing. You know, you should be able to have a little bit of say around how you show up digitally, even on her feed. And so I think if you're close, it warrants a real conversation about her motivations and just being really clear about where your comfort level lies. And listeners, I really want to hear what you think about this. Do you use filters and facetune on your photos? How would you feel if a friend or family member added one for you.

Subscribe to the newsletter and let me know at tangoity.com slash newsletter. We've got brand new merch and then there are no girls on the internet store. So one of the most consistent themes on this show is that technology is not neutral. It actually reflects the same systemic privileges and disadvantages that we see elsewhere in society. So we've got a brand new design that says just that. Technology is not neutral. Check it out on our website at tangoity.com slash store. and take advantage of a 35% store-wide sale on all merch

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You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangooty.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and the psychology of your 20s. is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks,

and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I, like, was just so wanting to, like, be out of that phase out of my skin, and I just, like, really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body. Having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-HeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests like Amelia Clark.

When, like, young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever. And my first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that. David O'Yellow-O. I love this call. whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts Dennis Leary, Gaten Moderato from Stranger Things, Tana Monsu, Camilla Morone, Carrie Kenny Silver and more.

Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.