There Are No Girls on the Internet - Whitney Houston: The Zombification of an Icon

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

A hologram of the late Whitney Houston is doing a residency in Las Vegas.  Spirituality writer Brooke Obie asks what this means about celebrity, greif, and technology.  Read Brooke's piece The Zombification of Whitney Houston: https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2021/11/10725817/whitney-houston-hologram-tour Read Deepfakes, dead relatives and digital resurrection: https://theface.com/society/deepfakes-dead-relatives-deep-nostalgia-ai-digital-resurrection-kim-kardashian-rob-kardashian-grief-privacy Al Sharpton Boycott flyer: https://preview.redd.it/a8fqafdn1yw31.jpg?auto=webp&s=372160136dda8598d3d621dbee936e5b3d31602c Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STOREJoin our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Say hello at [e-mail]  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the Hips since high school. Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast.

We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they hit a bogo. Well, then you got it. Listen to soccer moms on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us, this is actually going to cause

more damage because this isn't the real person. Like, you want the real person here. The real person is not here. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and UnBossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd. And this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Musical icon Whitney Houston died in 2011. But that doesn't stop her from performing. She's back from the dead and ready to entertain. Kind of. An evening with Whitney, the Whitney Houston hologram tour, first debuted in Europe in 2020, and is currently doing a residency in Vegas, leading up to a possible United States tour next year. Whitney's family and a state are involved with the show's production.

Pat Houston, Whitney's sister and the manager of her estate, raved about the hologram show, saying, we're excited to bring this cutting-edge musical experience to the fans who have supported the pop culture phenomenon that was Whitney Houston because they deserve nothing less. And while that may be true, the increasing use of holograms to recreate people who are no longer living is something that we should at least be asking questions about. rather than just accept as another new normal of our increasingly tech-enabled world. In a piece called The Zombification of Whitney Houston, spirituality writer Brooke Obie asks,

what right do any of us have to demand that our deceased heroes, loved ones, or anyone else act as a zombie for our entertainment? I had heard about this hologram tour that Whitney Houston's estate were putting on in Europe, and it was finally coming to the United States. I've been thinking about this for a really long time and really haunted by this for a really long time. But it was kind of out of sight, out of mind. But now it is happening.

There's a residency for six months in Vegas of this Whitney Houston hologram. And it was so disturbing to me. And it was also happening at the same time as Halloween. Like they released or they premiered this hologram residency in Las Vegas the week of Halloween. And I was like, wow. Yep, that is perfect. You know, if you want to exhum some ghosts, if you want to zombify an icon, why not start the week of Halloween? So, yeah, so that was really what triggered me finally sitting down and getting all of my thoughts out of my head and onto the page.

Well, I mean, the Halloween date, I think, is so kind of perfect because it is a really spooky, haunting kind of thing, especially given that, you know, I feel like for some. many of us, black women, we have this special connection to Whitney Houston. I know that she occupies a very special place in my heart. Do you feel the same way? Absolutely. I mean, she is everything. She's the voice, you know, and her life was so beautiful and so tragic and so unnecessarily ended. And so it was one of the most devastating celebrity losses that I've experienced in my life. And, you know, I was just so sad to see the people that were around her and the lack of care and the lack of regard for someone who needed help and assistance

and wasn't able to get it and wasn't able to live authentically as herself either and still have the career that she wanted to have. And so to see what's happening now, this is basically the same thing. that's happening in her life is now happening in her death. Her image is being constructed for her, you know, without her consent. And she's being put to work. Today the term zombies conjures up brains craving blood vests like Donna the Dead. But those pop culture interpretations obscure the actual grim origins of zombies and their connection to slavery.

I read this really amazing in-depth article in The Atlantic by Mike Barron. And it was about the tragic forgotten history of zombies. And so it's talking about the ways that Haitian enslaved people. Their deepest fear was that, you know, if they died by suicide because the plantations were so brutal, the French were so brutal in their slavery of Haitians that they would be trapped in their bodies and that they would be trapped on these plantations forever. And then once Haitian voodoo evolved, that zombie mythology evolved as well. And basically, there was a sorcerer that would take these dead bodies and resurrect them for evil purposes, you know, and use them for free labor. And that's what I saw. That's what I saw in my mind when I heard about this hologram and this idea of taking Whitney.

who was not able to rest and not able to control her own image in her lifetime now in death, being used for free labor, once again, and racking in money for the estate for the next six months in this hologram residency. The thing about this that strikes me as particularly sad is that I saw the ways that Whitney was stripped of her humanity and identity in life. aspects of who Whitney was as a person were obscured to make her more marketable to mainstream white audiences. Music labels were segregated by race, and in the beginning, her sound was intentionally manufactured to have white crossover appeal. Clive Davis, the head of Aistair Records, signed Whitney when she was just a teenager, after an A&R rep saw her singing with her mother's nightclub act. Davis became a huge force in shaping Whitney's image and career. He vetoed her releasing anything to black-sounding.

for her first two albums. His choice came with a real cost for Whitney. At the height of her success in the 80s, Whitney was booed by black audiences at the Soul Train Awards when the host introduced her as a nominee for Best R&B Artist. Reverend Al Sharpton even organized a boycott of her music, calling her Whitey Houston on flyers that you can check out in the link in our show description. Being stripped of this aspect of her identity was hard for Whitney. Sometimes it gets you down. You're not black enough for them, you're not R&B enough, you're very pop. The white audience has taken you away from them, she explained in an interview, and it didn't stop there. Now, in the 80s, the music industry was deeply homophobic. And to find mainstream success, an artist would sometimes have

to conceal parts of themselves. So it isn't surprising that Whitney herself did not talk openly about her sexuality, and we'll never get to hear about it in her own words. But her closest friend and confidant, Robin Crawford, an openly gay black woman, who had spent decades by Whitney's side as her assistant and creative director opened up about her romantic relationship with Whitney. They met at summer camp as kids and quickly became inseparable. But soon after Whitney signed with Clive Davis at Arista, she ended their intimate relationship because, quote, it would make our journey even more difficult. Crawford remembers in her memoir, A Song for You, My Life with Whitney Houston. In the 2000s, the years leading up to her tragic death, Whitney dealt with

addiction and family issues, like the 2003 arrest of her husband Bobby Brown for allegedly hitting her in the face. And the same media who'd once been happy to portray her as Black America's sweetheart gleefully made her the butt of jokes for failing to live up to the narrow role they'd written her into. Whitney wasn't really able to be her full self when she was alive. And now, as a hologram, rendered back to life without any of the baggage that comes with being a complex living person, Whitney is now an always on, always camera-ready version of herself who can perform on command and generate income for others forever. And in a way, the hologram suggests that that's what music executives really wanted from her all along.

I was really struck by in your piece is sort of that element of, you know, these Haitian enslaved people, how they, that was like their deepest fear, you know, being exhumed, being reanimated and being trapped in this cycle of having to work to make money from their labor forever, and how deeply kind of sad that is not being able to rest, given the kind of life that Whitney Houston did live. And I think there's something so incredibly sad, but also relatable, about the life that Whitney Houston live. You know, in order for her to be sort of like marketable as an artist,

she was stripped from so much of what made her her, right? her blackness, her queerness, so much of like the things that made Whitney who she was. And I feel that, you know, she played that game. And then when she stepped away to be a more authentic version of herself, how quickly America turned on her, how quickly America turned her into a joke. And so I do think there's some sort of cautionary tale about this tightrope that we all have to walk as black women. And that's why so many of us identify with her. But as this hologram, It's like in her death, they have been able to strip her from all of these things that make her her so that they have this marketable version that they can just make money off of.

You know, they don't have to include her blackness, her queerness, her addiction issues, her family issues. She can just be a hologram moneymaker for them in death forever. Right. And it's probably a lot more profitable for them with her not being able to be alive and to have the issues that she was dealing with, you don't have to worry about whether or not she's going to go out on stage because they can put her out whenever they want to.

Like it's really, like I was saying in my piece, it's that the worst Black Mirror episode. That's a very, very brilliant show, but there is an episode with Miley Cyrus that's basically the same thing. They have this pop star that they're forcing into a coma and then using her music and using all sorts of other technologies to project her onto a stage so that she will behave the way that they want her to behave.

It's not a very good episode, but the concept is definitely what's happening here. And we've heard so much about how dangerous and unsafe it is for women and black women in particular in the music industry. and so I have no doubt that there are plenty of executives who would be all about, you know, how can we just make money off of this person and not have who they actually are get in the way of our money? Some musicians, like Anderson Pock, don't want to leave it up for executives or estate executors to sort out in the event of his death. Last year, the musician got a tattoo on his forearm reading, When I'm gone, please don't release any posthumous albums or song with my name attached. Those were just demos and never intended to be heard by the public.

He debuted this tattoo in August of 2020. Just a few months after the late Princess' previously unreleased album, Welcome to America, was posthumously released. While the album earned critical praise, I really can't say if the artist, who died without a will and was so notoriously protective of ownership over his music and likeness that he changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol from 1993 to 2000 would have wanted this album to see the light of day.

You talk about all these different black artists who have taken great steps to avoid their likeness being used in these ways after death, including Anderson-Pox tattoo that's like, you know, if I die, please do not use my likeness or release any songs that were not meant to be released to the public. Do you think that there is this like, like, the societal expectation that black artists specifically are just sort of there to be mined for their creativity, for entertainment and profit, even in death? And that like, specifically that we as black folks are just expected to be these never-ending wells of profit-generating creativity just forever. And, like, technology would certainly, like, facilitate that.

Absolutely. Okay, so there's this great music journalist named Simon Reynolds, who actually coined the term ghost slavery when talking about this topic. And that's, you know, what slavery is, right? It was created for, in America, it was created to inslaught. mostly African people, but also indigenous people, you know, in order to work for free and to build their wealth. And so absolutely, this is just another extension of that. You know, I do believe that, you know, black musicians and entertainers have been the people who've been able to kind of break through a bit of these white supremacist layers that exist in this country, that this country was

founded on. But they only want you to be able to do that to a certain extent. And especially if you start to become political or if you start to become a problem in any way that could jeopardize, for one, white supremacy or, you know, any of the structures that are in place, you get a little too mouthy, a little too upy. As a black person, of course, they want to put you back in their place. So I do feel like if, you know, they, as long as the music is bringing profit, there won't be a problem. But if there is a way to control black artists as much as possible, that's what's going to happen. You know, we've seen it in these 360 deals. We've seen it in so many different ways in the music industry. And that is what I think that's kind of why Rihanna's over.

Like, why would I stay here this? You know, you can't even make money in the same way. You have to be on the road. You have to do all of these different things as artists in order to maintain your integrity and to make money, it's just a lot more difficult today to be able to do that. So, yeah, I mean, I think people are starting to understand that and starting to come up with other ways to protect themselves. I don't think a tattoo is going to do it. I hope Anderson Pack has another plan, like a will.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

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I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. Oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things. that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase out of my skin and I just like really regret not living in the present more. Each week we break down the science behind what you're going through and give you real tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out.

They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming.

The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown

from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Prince Superfans, myself very much included, pan the Super Bowl 2018 halftime show when it was announced that Justin Timberlake was going to perform with a Prince hologram because Prince specifically said that he did not want to be brought back to life as a hologram. When he was asked about it in a 1998 interview with Guitar World, Prince said, certainly not. That is the most demonic thing imaginable.

Everything is as it is and as it should be. If I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived in the same age. The whole virtual reality thing, it is really demonic, and I am not a demon. Also, what they did with that Beatles song manipulating John Lennon's voice to have him singing from across the grave, that'll never happen to me. To prevent that kind of thing from happening is another reason why I want artistic control. So Prince absolutely did not want to be a hologram. And what's even worse is that Prince didn't even really seem to like Justin Timberlake. The two had a whole history of making shady digs at each other while Prince was still alive.

So bringing Prince back as a hologram against his wishes to jam with a musician he didn't even really like just seem like adding insult to injury. Now, in the end, the Super Bowl halftime show didn't technically use a hologram. It was more of a projection of Prince performing on a screen paired up alongside Justin's performance. I think that was the problem with Prince. Prince also spoke out quite a bit about, you know, how he thought holograms were demonic. that he would never want that for his life and said that this is never going to happen to me.

But, you know, we did see that performance with Justin Timberlake at the Super Bowl would have supposed to be a tribute. And I think it really was supposed to be a hologram. And I think if not for the outcry of the public, because the public did know that Prince didn't want that, that they kind of maybe changed it to something else. You know, we still saw a projection of Prince, but it wasn't quite a hologram.

But, you know, when the estate has control over your likeness, they can do whatever they want, you know, unless you're explicitly in your will saying, this isn't what you want. And Prince died in test state. So, you know, they have complete control his estate to do whatever they want to do with his image. And so that's why you see these commercials with his music end

that you never saw before. You see people being able to go to Paisley Park, which he would never want. So there's just so many things that can happen to you once you're dead. And we've been looking at it from a perspective of celebrities, but I think this is definitely something that's going to start impacting our regular day-to-day lives in the near future as well. Yeah, let's talk about that. So in your piece you bring up, you argue that the announcement that Facebook slash meta,

if you want to say that. Like their whole argument or their whole announcement about the metaverse, do you think that the vibe is that they want, that our sort of tech overlords want to be able to reproduce and reanimate anyone, famous or non-famous, anyone anywhere, and that that will be a common, a common, you know, technological advancement available to everybody in our tech future? Do you think that that's like what they're after?

I mean, I think that is just a thing, that happens when the technology is available. So, you know, especially when people like Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of our tech overlords are concerned about profit, like we've seen, you know, several former Facebook employees coming forward and sharing damning information showing that Facebook is a company, slash meta, is a company that is for profits over people every single time. This is just something that could happen as a result of that. You know, you provide the technology. It's going to happen.

It's just like you create a platform where people can express their opinions. There's going to be harassment, you know. There's going to be racism. There's going to be terrorism. There's going to be all these other things. And so, you know, if you're not actively preventing that from happening, then, of course, it's going to happen. You're giving people the space to do what people do.

In the wake of the 2020 racial justice protests all around the globe after the murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man killed by police, change.org and the George Floyd Foundation created a 3D hologram of the late George Floyd to be projected onto Confederate monuments in the South. George Floyd's brother, Rodney Floyd, said, Since the death of my brother, George, his face has been seen all over the world. The hologram will allow my brother's face to be seen as a symbol for change in places where changes needed the most.

I had the chance to see the projection in Richmond, and it really was powerful. So holograms can be a way for a family to heal and grieve and turn their loss into something larger. But when someone's likeness becomes a symbol in this way, it's not always empowering and respectful. It also opens up the possibility that their likeness could be used in offensive ways. For instance, Floyd's is a collection of jokey NFTs that depict pixelated images of George Floyd with red eyes have co-opted his image seemingly to intentionally create outrage. We've seen this recently with George Floyd. You know, he was celebratized in his death and just his image has been, I think, one of the most exploited in recent history.

And for him, for his image to go on a hologram tour of the South to all of these former Confederate statue locations, you know, and that was, you know, something that was supported by his family. His family was behind that along with change.org. And so I just think when people are grieving, whether it's an icon that you loved, or, you know, a dear loved one, a friend or family member that you love, like people find ways to grieve. And, you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, these are becoming more and more available and affordable for everyone. everyday people. I know I have an Oculus that was given to me by HBO PR during Lovecraft

Countries run. They had some activations in the Oculus world, VR world, that they wanted press to see and they did a concert, a hologram concert. The point is they want this to be a regular situation. They want everybody to have an Oculus, especially Facebook just bought Oculus, you know, shortly after HBO did all those activations in Oculus. And so now you have to sign in with your Facebook account in order to use that. So this is definitely something that is going to be available to a great deal of people. And you can create avatars. And so who's to say somebody won't create an avatar based on their loved one, you know?

And I think, you know, we really have to decide, like, whose life is the most important. Is it, you know, the wishes of the person who's now dead or the person who's still alive and wants to grieve and needs to grieve and, you know, however they choose to grieve, you know, should be okay. I mean, it's definitely something that we should all be thinking about. So not just musicians and not just with tattoos, like, we need to start putting this in our wills. Like, don't use my image in any of these ways. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Swindley. Michael and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-Eyehart to get started.

That's 844-8-44-I-heart. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery

in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network. on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and your 20s, they can feel like a lot. On the psychology of your 20s podcast, we unpack the anxiety, the overthinking, the heartbreak, the identity crisis, all of it that comes with being in your 20s. Because if you've ever thought, is anybody else feeling this way, they definitely are. I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. Oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase out of my skin. And I just like really regret not living in the present more.

Each week we break down the science behind what you're going through and give you real, tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out. They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Rook is right that this is actually a thing that we will probably be seeing more and more of. Entertainment lawyer Brian Tuck wrote about this extensively. He writes, expect a lot more of this in the future. Look at the trends in Hollywood, where major studios crank out the same or similar blockbuster projects, one after the next. The major studios, by and large, are not risk-takers. They want bankable stars. Who better than a superstar from yesterday that can be completely controlled via voice acting and digital rendering?

This digital actor will never show up to work late, get arrested for public drunkenness, or be involved in any scandal of the types that we've seen in recent years that cause an entire production to stop. It is highly likely that these digital resurrections or recreations will absolutely become commonplace. It's such an interesting peek into kind of a bleak tech future. A big part of what we talk about on this show is like imagining what our collective futures will look like with technology. And some of it is very beautiful, but some of it is very bleak. And so this idea of being ready for whatever bleak thing will be the next iteration of our tech future, I think is a really, really good kind of like cautionary point.

And I also think, you know, talking about how Facebook, bought Oculus, there was a time where Facebook's motto was move fast and break things, right? Like their entire thing was just like, keep going, keep going, move, move, move. Don't stop and think about the ramifications. Don't stop and think about the precedent that you're setting. Don't stop and think about how this thing will be misused or can be, you know, can result in real world harms. Just keep moving.

Just move fast. And I wonder if it's if that attitude, if that climate has really got us in a place where we are making, making so many new technological advances and then normalizing them or making them commonplace, but not stopping to think about what they will, what kind of future they will actually create. Like, in your piece who used this great prince quote, if I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived at the same time. And I wonder, is there an element here of focusing so much of what we could do or can do that nobody is pumping the brakes and thinking, what should we be doing? Is this right? Is this going to make for a better, brighter future or a more harmful,

more bleak future? Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I think it's the same with concerts. You know, we should have gone out to see Whitney Houston in concert. If we did it, wow, we really messed up. You know, that should make us be even more vigilant about going to see Beyonce, going to see Stevie Wonder, going to see all these other people that we love who are icons while we have the chance. That's what life does. Life teaches us, you know, lessons. And the point is not to create a world where we didn't, you know, miss the boat. It's to learn from the mistakes and to try better, you know, with the information that you have now. So, I mean, I definitely think it is, it's teaching us a dangerous lesson that, you know, technology, we can use technology to, you know, arrange

race history. And that's not the point. The point should not be to erase history. It should be to learn from history and grow from history and do better. And I think, you know, we see, you know, someone like Kanye West, who created this hologram of Kim Kardashian's father, who's been passed away for, for decades now. And to have him show up at Kim's 40th birthday party and tell her all these things that, you know, you may want a father to tell you, but it's just like he isn't actually saying these words. You know, this isn't, he has no, you know, concepts. Perhaps, I mean, we don't really know. But I mean, like, this hologram definitely has no concept of what's going on in the present

world, you know, has no idea about, you know, her children or any of that. Like, it was just so odd. And, you know, personally, I would have divorced him off of this alone. But, you know, that's just, I definitely see us creating holograms of our dead loved ones to be at our weddings and to be at the births of our children and all of these things. You know, and I'm just, I just wonder if that is actually, I'm not a psychologist in any way, but I do wonder what the psychological impact of those things will be. Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us, this is actually going to cause more damage because this isn't the real person. Like, you want the real person here.

The real person is not here. So this fake stand-in is not doing it and they're not going to do it. And the point is to learn how to move through grief, how to expand through grief, how to increase the amount of love that you put out into the world as a result of the grief. You know, so I am concerned. I am really concerned. After a company called Kalita created a hologram of Kim Kardashian's late father, they said they were flooded with requests to do the same for regular, though presumably wealthy people asking for hologram recreations of their loved ones.

And companies like deep nostalgia, which uses AI to create digital renderings of loved ones that smile and move, are already incredibly popular with people who want to feel more connected to their lost. loved ones. So could this be a useful way to process grief and the past? In a piece for the fall called Deep Fakes, Dead Relatives and Digital Resurrection, Dr. Elaine Cassett, psychologist and the author of All the Ghosts in the Machines, says that right now, tech is ushered in new territory of collapsing the dead and the living together. Tech companies are the keepers of this information, with a one-size-fits-all memorialization mechanism. They've got ideas about what's good for you, and grief and bereavement are baked into the design, she says.

I've been in therapy for a very long time. And one of my therapists kind of repeated mantras to me is there are no shortcuts to grieving. There's no shortcuts to processing. And so, you know, if there was a technology-enabled future that allowed me to experience things that I'm like, I never got to experience or, you know, basically I, there's no shortcut to processing. And so if I was able to have a hologram of, you know, the perfect solution, like a perfect recreation of what I wish I always had, I am then not doing the work of processing the fact that I never got that in reality, right?

Like, and there is no shortcut to processing. You just have to move through it and make peace with it. And I guess I wonder if we're enabling the, if technology is enabling us to think of things as shortcuts. Like if you didn't appreciate Whitney Houston when she was here, or worse, you got on the pop culture bandwagon of mocking her and like mocking her humanity, maybe you shouldn't get to have a future enabled by technology where you can go see her anytime you want for as long as you live. Maybe you should be processing why it is that you treated her that way when she was living. And I wonder if this technology is building in this, these shortcuts.

for not having to do that deep work of processing what it is we do while we're here to people who are actual humans. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting because I also, I write fiction, you know, and a part of my process is reimagination. You know, I have a whole novel that, like, reimagines the ending of slavery in a way that is empowering for black people in a way that sets us off on a different future as a way of processing the ways in which we are existing in this present terrible future as a result of slavery that has not been addressed or repaired or, you know, and it's now trying to be, you know, by these right-wing extremists, you know, being erased from our history and from, you know, being taught in schools.

So I'm just, you know, I understand the ideology behind, you know, how reimaginations can help process and help heal and move through grief. I'm just wondering what the limitations are. You know, I'm wondering, you know, what is, I think our tech overlords should be thinking what is the worst that could happen and putting up safeguards. right now, and they're not going to do that. That's such a good point. And we, I feel like we've already seen how technology is being misused if you don't put in safeguards for the reality of how a lot of people will probably misuse it. Like, you know, we have deep fake technology. I've seen very interesting, useful interpretations of deep fakes. They're artists who like make deep fakes of Mark Zuckerberg, taking accountability

for the harm he has caused, for instance. But we already know that how deep fake technology is being used is to harass and abuse marginalized people, women, queer people, women of color. And so this idea that we can just quickly put out new technology that is going to completely change and alter how our society understands how it works and not put in those safeguards or even really stop to think about the precedent they set, I think is really a problem. Yes, absolutely.

So I have to ask, you know, in reading your piece, it's obvious that this piece is sort of like a love letter to Whitney Houston and her legacy. What is your, do you have a favorite Whitney Houston song or moment that you want to share with us? There might be a hard question because there's so many to pick from. There really are. I mean, I feel like I want to dance with somebody. And I know she was, it really hurt my heart to hear how she. she was criticized for this song by, you know, like Al Sharpton and, you know, other prominent black people back when this was released. But I remember my dad had a VHS of just like Whitney

Houston videos and stuff like that. And I remember as a kid watching that video. And she was so happy. And, you know, I, in the hair, you know, like it was just so beautiful. and I just thought she was the most beautiful woman. And I was like, yes, how nice would that be to dance with somebody who loves you? Like, how ideal. Like, I just, I remember so vividly as a kid being just, like, so enthralled by this video. And my dad also had this, the, her original record, you know, where she's got the, I think her hair is pulled back. But it looked like she had just like a low, like, shaved head.

And I just remember like, like, Like, yeah, all you see is her stunning face. And I'm like, wow, this is the most beautiful woman. I just, I remember being so touched by her music so early on in my life. I mean, the bodyguard was my favorite movie. I wanted to be an actress because of the bodyguard. Like, I mean, there's just so much. Waiting to Exhale is like hands down the best soundtrack that has ever existed to a movie.

You know, she's just, she was so gifted and she was so talented. And then when I found out later on that she has literally. produced like all the teen girl movies, like the princess diaries. And I mean, just, she did so much that shaped my childhood, including Cinderella. I mean, that, you know, we definitely, that was appointment television. Like, we stopped everything as a family to watch Cinderella and to watch Brandy, who I also loved so much, be the first black Cinderella and to have Whitney Houston be the godmother. I mean, it just, there are so many things and so many of those songs as well. Like I just, I remember always having this kind of countercultural mind as a kid and just

these ideas, these feminist ideas that I didn't know what the words were or how to describe them. But like, I just felt like Whitney Houston in her music and definitely in the music in Cinderella, like it was so much about, you know, just feeling empowered as a woman and not taking the positions that we are put in in society laying down, you know, to fight, to be an individual and to use your own voice. And so then to later find out that there were so many ways that Whitney was not allowed to do that was just very devastating, very hard to hear an experience. And, you know, it definitely gave me fuel to make sure that.

I and the people around me as much as possible were given the space to be who they are and to be celebrated and supported for who they are. So that nothing like this would ever happen. It's a tragedy that we lost Whitney Houston. And it was so unnecessary. It didn't have to be this way. We could have made a society that was not queerphobic, that was not lesbophobic, that was not anti-black, that was not misogynistic, that would have allowed Whitney's. in Houston to thrive. And we, you know, we all can play a role in creating that world so that it doesn't happen

to another person. That's so beautiful and so right. I mean, Whitney taught me that nothing is worth living your authentic life and living your authentic truth. Exactly. That's beautiful. Brooke, is there anything that I have not asked or have not brought up that you want to make sure it gets included?

I think that was pretty much it. I got in my dig about Mark Zuckerberg and Justin Timberlake, so I feel accomplished. Like every chance I can to just be like, fuck Justin Timberlake. Like, I just want to say that. Zuckerberg can go to hell. Like, that's it. I think that's, I think we're good. I do love that, like, as a culture, we all kind of collectively are like, you know what?

Fuck, fuck Justin Timberlake. Like, we don't like him. Forever. Like, you can't come back. from that. Like, it's not pay reparations to Janet or, like, just be quiet forever. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoity.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart

Radio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us, Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall, as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about design. fantasy, identity, and how we love now.

Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcasts presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school.

Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. with all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they hit a bogo.

Well, then you got it. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventures, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges.

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