There Are No Girls on the Internet - Who is driving Meghan Markle hate online? STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

After the death of the Queen, conspiracy theories and sexist, racist attacks on Meghan Markle flooded the internet. But according to researchers, negativity about Meghan Markle is being driven by less people than you might think. Bridget joined Anney and Sam at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You to discuss.  Read the entire Bot Sentinel. report: https://botsentinel.com/reports/documents/duke-and-duchess-of-sussex/report-11-09-2021.pdfSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. When the Queen died earlier this month, the internet exploded, not just with tributes to her legacy or opinions about the monarchy, but also in conspiracy theories and racist, sexist attacks on Megan Markle. Now, this is something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

The ways that our internet landscape make it really easy to amplify attacks on women and women of color. But what is really interesting to me is what happens when you dig into the actual numbers of who exactly is spreading all this hate. According to research from there are No Girls on the Internet guest Christopher Bouset of Bot Sentinel, it actually takes a lot less people than you might think

to gamify our social media platforms and dominate online discourse about someone like Megan Markle. And I joined my friends, Samantha and Annie, at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You, to talk all about it. This is kind of a convoluted segue, but I wanted to bring it up because it does bring me joy to remember me in my old Neo's Angel email receiving these things.

But also, I do think it kind of tangentially relates to what we're talking about today and that there seems to be these messages coming from we're not sure where. So I'm very eager to learn more about this. That was really, I'm going to say, podcast or to podcaster, that was a masterful transition. Thank you.

Thank you. But yes, I'm very eager to learn more about this. Can you tell us what we're going to be discussing today? Yes. So as you just said, Annie, it is sort of related about this idea of who is able to really control conversations on the internet about one specific subject. And so today, that topic is going to be Megan Merkel. As you all, I'm sure by now probably know, the queen died last week. I'm curious, do you two have any, like, strong?

connection to the royal family, the monarchy? Like, is this something that you followed or are you like, could not care less, have not followed it? Don't know anything about it. I personally could not care less. I, it's been, it's impossible to escape, I will say, right now. But I don't have any real feeling about it. I have some friends who do.

I did go through a period where I was really into, like, entertainment from the UK and specifically like I was in love with the idea of moving to London but I've never been into their royal family that's never made sense to me personally but I have friends who are so I guess I get it through them

so I'm old enough to remember like vividly remember instead of just being like kind of like yeah I was a kid I remember this the death of Diana Princess Diana and also the love for William Prince William who is is I think a couple years younger than me. So, of course, like that era of trying to figure out

watching these young princes grow up and following their stories. So not necessarily that I was caught up in the royal lifestyle or family, but I do remember that offset of seeing the huge controversies amongst the family at that point in time. Of course, as recently as everything has happened, in the past 10 years with Megan Markle, even Prince William getting married and all the different things. I have an understanding of what's going on,

kind of like you, as well as the fact that I have understood my group of people that I follow have very strong opinions of colonialism. And I'm like, yeah, okay, this tracks. So that's kind of where I stand in this mix. Totally. So I'm somewhere in the middle. I have to say right up front,

I am not a careful follower of the royal. family. I kind of bounce between like ambivalent to like, oh, I know about this. So I know that there are people who are obsessively following royal family and monarchy culture. And if I say anything that's incorrect, that is because I am not a careful follower of the royal family. But kind of like you, like I have a lot of friends who are really into it. I do have a theory that older moms, specifically like older black moms have a real affinity for Diana. So growing up. My mom loved Diana, cried when Diana died, still has People magazine from that time with like, you know, what was it? The People's Princess and all of that. Like, so definitely got a little bit

of secondhand royal family engagement from that. But I've never really been somebody who followed it carefully. Obviously, when Megan Markle came on the scene, I loved that. I was definitely like, oh, Black Princess. I know she's not a princess, but that was what we said when she came on the seen. But yeah, and I think one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by, even as someone who doesn't really know about the monarchy, why I'm so fascinated about this issue is that Megan Markle, and the way that people talk about her, I think gives us a very interesting lens into how women, particularly black women and women of color, how our online experience is shaped by other people. And Megan Markle is not even on social media anymore, neither is Prince Harry. And yet

She is a constant focal point on social media. And I think that we really saw that with the death of the queen. And even though the queen was born back in 1926, and there was no such thing as social media back then, by the time she died last week, social media played a huge, overwhelming role in the way that the royal family considered her death. You know, the news itself was first announced to the public on the royal family Twitter before anyplace else. And, you know, a lot of the immediate next steps and actions that the royal family took

were circulated around social media. So like halting government social media accounts and saying like, oh, official government accounts are only going to tweet, you know, essential information, no non-essential posts, and like changing the royal family website to be like a morning, you know, in memoriam kind of thing. And in addition to the way that social media has shaped

the way the royals, you know, present to the public, we have seen that it also presents this place for Megan Markle to be faced with pretty intense, criticisms, but also things like outright lies, conspiracy theories, racist, sexist smears and stereotypes about who she is. And it really is not the first time. Like, we have seen this kind of stuff going on with Megan Markle before the Queen's death, obviously. And it's so interesting to me that this event, the Queen's death, was used not just as a way to like memorialize her or like critique her reign or anything like that. It was also used as a way to further

flam Megan Markle on social media yes yes and as someone who as I said

I'm not I don't follow this a lot I don't get on Twitter a lot even I was aware that this was happening

like I saw it trending on like my brief like what's going on Twitter and I had enough knowledge to be

like I bet this is coming from a really terrible racist place when I saw like Megan Markle go home trending. So yeah, can you explain

what all of that was? What was the social media response? Yeah, I mean, it's almost exactly like you said. And I once interviewed somebody who writes about fandoms and van culture. And she described it, interestingly, she described it as an anti-fandom, which I had never heard before. And so it's just like what you think of a fandom, but in the opposite direction. So like, people who their whole thing is, I love to hate this one person. I love to create content about how much I don't like them. That's my thing. And so

that kind of messaging was in full effect. After the queen died, as you said, the hashtag Megan Markle go home, sort of trending on Twitter. And basically, what I found so interesting about that is that first, people were picking up, picking on her because she did not go to England with Harry, her husband, after the queen died. And again, I'm no expert here, but it sounds like she just like

was out invited. And so not going, well, isn't anything bad. And then when she actually did go, everybody was like, oh, go home, go home. So it's interesting how it kind of doesn't matter what she does. If she doesn't go, that's bad. If she does go, that's also bad. And I think it really illustrates how, yeah, it's like this impossible tightrope where it doesn't, it's clearly not really about her actions and what she actually does or says.

It's just about her. It's about her existence, her presence. That is threatening. That is not okay with the people that hate her. her. And ultimately, it's like an impossible situation to walk. There was this like very fascinating instance where she was videoed and somebody in a crowd handed her some flowers. And an aide seems to walk up to her and is like, oh, I'll take those for you. And she says to, she mouths something to him that's like, seems to be, oh, my God, don't worry about it. Thank you. And you would,

the way that people talked about this on the internet, you would think that she punched this aid. And it's like, actually, she's just like calmly standing there saying a sentence, smiling, and then like clearly saying, thank you. And it's like a 30 second interaction. People were dissecting it like the JFK Zepruder film. Like people became like overnight body language experts and lip readers. And it was wild. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. I want to return to that idea of anti-fandum for sure, because I think. as someone who is like a fan of a lot of stuff, I've seen this before, and it just becomes like this, where people feel justified in hating someone, and here's the proof, and I, yeah, I'm a body language expert, and I can tell you why.

But all it is is, like, they just want to hate that person who usually they feel is encroaching on their territory. Oh, my God. Like, as someone who is interested in a lot of, like Star Wars stuff, nerdy stuff, fandom stuff. I'm sure you've seen this a lot. Yes. Oh, I cannot wait to talk about it once we get more in depth about what might be going on here.

Because, yeah, it's just like it becomes, I think I've said to Samantha before, it's like this anti-findom thing is ringing so true with me because I'm like, well, you're not a fan anymore. You're just all about the hate of this. You're a hater. You just are unhappy. Right. So I don't know why you're here. It's to make everyone else feel unhappy

and to assert what you think is your power and dominance in the space. But you're not a fan. If you hate this much of it, just go along. It's going to be okay. Oh, yeah. And I mean, like the levels people will go, the things they'll do to, scare

usually women marginalized people off the internet is wild to me and then unfortunately very often successful

but they will come up with all of these things and you you brought this example of like a conspiracy theory right where they were like this something is wrong here with the Mexican Markle

yeah so like I mean the amount of wild conspiracy theory like people it's clearly a lot of like projection where people already have a negative association with someone and then any

little thing will be used as proof to stack that thinking, right? And so one of the big conspiracies that came out of the Queen's funeral was that Megan attended the funeral wearing a hidden recording device under her dress. And the reason

why people thought this is because she was photographed and in one of the pictures there's like a wrinkle or a bump on her thigh and people were like, how, like, the, the gall, she's going to be, what is she recording this for her podcast or for some Netflix special? So shameless. And it's like, yo, I have worn those kinds of recording devices in my clothing. They are so bulky. Also, don't you, if that was her plan, don't you think she would have worn an outfit that was more conducive? Like, she wouldn't have worn a dress that clings to that part of her body. She might have worn something with pockets.

Like, you know, she might have, don't, don't you think that if that's what, she's, she's, was doing, she would have done it better. And isn't it more possible that, like, humans who wear clothing and stand while wearing that clothing sometimes experience wrinkles? Like, isn't that more of a better explanation for what's going on? Right. I think you're being too logical, Bridget. I'll dare you be sensible.

This whole conversation is so odd to me because Megan Markle, just being present, marrying a man has caused this huge controversy. And, of course, a lot of conversations and comparisons to Princess Diana and Megan Merkel. Of course, those same people who probably were degrading and or criticizing Princess Diana would now call her an angel and then saying that Megan Merkel is the one that's, you know, disrespecting the name of Princess Diana. And everyone was like, wait, what? You were the ones who were number one in criticisms.

But also just like the fact that Megan Markle has nothing honestly to gain in this entire, entirety of this conversation of these controversies to record any of these things, to try, as they say that she's trying to make money off these things. She's not. She's literally doing a podcast about her own life, bringing in guests to talk about marginalized issues that has nothing to do with the throne in general, as well as the fact, Prince Harry's not that close.

None of his family is not close to the lineage to become king or queen or whatever or whatnot. We have already seen the graphs that happen. So, like, my mind is just this reeling of like, Why? Why take this effort to bring this conspiracy other than, hey, she is not white? So therefore, we hate her. Yeah. And you touched on something, this is a little bit of a tangent, but you touched on something that I think about all the time is how, you know, I was young before Princess Diana died. But even I know as like a child living in the United States, even I knew the way the press talked about her, even as a kid.

And so the press really tore her down. And then when she died, she's an angel. We've always loved her. And I see that so often. And I do think it's like as bad as the media in the United States is. I do feel like in the UK and in England it's like work can be worse. Like a little bit like more vicious. And I think about like Amy Winehouse is the figure because I was a huge Amy Winehouse fan.

Amy Winehouse is the figure that I think about a lot where the press. And the media loved to villainize her and really make fun of her in these, like, cruel ways in ways that I hope that when people are struggling with substance issues now, I hope that we've gotten to a place where, like, we don't cruelly mock them for it. But then when she died, the way that that same pressed rushed to lionize her, rush to act as if they had always loved her. It's just, it's hard to see. And, you know, it kind of breaks my heart.

but there's this video clip of Harry talking about this, and he's like basically feels very emphatically that the press is responsible for the death of his mother. And then when there was a time when Megan was open about experiencing, you know, feelings of self-harm. And he talked about how he felt like he was watching the press do the same thing to his new wife that he had to watch them do to his mom.

And I, something about that clip really, sticks with me of like, I don't know, I don't think I'll ever be able to understand what that must feel like to have watched that as a child and be so powerless and then watch it again and be like, no, I'm not letting this happen again. Yeah, and compounding that with the fact that this is an racist attack on a woman for just being in love with a man, point blank. But, you know, I found that interesting because for me, I actually didn't know much about this hashtag. I, I as much as I'm on Twitter and saying things. Again, like I said, my friends have very strong feelings of the queen and her responsibility and colonialism in itself.

So I had a whole different take on this conversation. So I'm kind of a surprise to know that this is happening. And I'm really wondering, where did they all come from? So this is a great question. So I have to say, I am probably in a similar digital pocket that you are because my timeline when the queen died was like very, very, much black Twitter and like Irish Twitter and like Jamaican Twitter all coming together. I know that people have, how can I put this? I came.

So when the queen died, I don't think I realized that I knew people that had a lot, had, I was surprised by how much reverence my friends in the United States had for her. So I was like, okay, she's definitely like a, I have friends that think of her as like a feminist figure. I was like, okay. Like, I was a little, again, this is not to like, I don't want to say, I don't want to say, like, I realize, I was like, oh, people have complex feelings about her. And it kind of almost became like a roar shark test of where people were at. And I was just like very surprised to see that. It had not occurred to me that that was going to be the way that it was.

I'll just put it that way. Me either. But yeah, like I said, so that's pocket eye man. So I'm out of the loop on this one. I don't know. It is interesting to me. I think that Megan Markle, and we should talk about it

because I do think Megan Markle evokes a reaction in a certain type of person, just her presence, just her being around is threatening and like deeply, I think it can like deeply challenge

a lot of people's preconceived notions, right? So I think that like, I also think that Megan Markle at this point carries herself in a kind of way that frankly I think a lot of like white people might have a problem with. Not surprising. Yeah, but that's the thing is like,

so that's the only thing I have seen. So I'm trying to figure out where all these conversations are coming from, and is it actually reflective of the rest of society, the rest of the people's and Twitters? Well, so that is a very, very interesting question. Christopher Buzet, who is a CEO of a company called Bot Sentinel, which is an organization that analyzes Twitter data to determine, you know, where conversations are coming from,

who is generating them as its real people with its bots. He did an entire analysis of Megan Markle in October of 2021. And basically, you would be surprised that a lot of the hate thrown at Megan Markle is being driven by a lot fewer people on social media than you might suspect. Yeah. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

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Oh my God, that's right. Yes, and I was shocked. And I always try to make the point, believe me, I know there are terrible racist, sexist fans. Believe me, I know that. But the data that came out was like, it's way less posting about it. I'm not going to say it's way, way, way less. But it's way less actually posting about it. And still, the perception I got was there was this huge sect on Twitter that was like,

tearing down these actors and was causing Rotten Tomatoes to, like, review bomb. And the report we talked about was like, it's actually a lot of bots. And still, it has this huge impact that changed Rotten Tomatoes and their policy.

And it changes how people perceive, like, Disney made creative decisions because of cowards, based on this. Like... Oh. I'm just... I'm so glad you brought that up.

That's such a good point. And I think it really goes to show that, like, A, a pretty small minority of very motivated, very vocal, coordinated, I guess, in a nice way to put it, passionate people can really change discourse. They can really change, like, they can really make an impact. And so I would also, I would argue then that, like, there is a problem with our social media platforms and our digital platforms. and our digital platforms, if a small handful, a relatively small handful, of dedicated trolls and people, like haters,

can really impact and change discourse. Like, I would argue that that means that something is broken, something is flawed. And I also think that, you know, when you have a small handful of people dictating the conversation and creating the impression that everybody hates this new person on Star Wars

or everybody hates Megan Markle, It's so much easier for somebody who is just a casual viewer of this to get the idea that like, oh, well, everybody hates so-and-so. So, like, I'm not going to chime in with, like, I like so-and-so or that I'm ambivalent about so-and-so. If I'm going to chime in, it kind of poisons the well, and it makes it so that we can't actually have honest conversations rooted in what people actually feel because it just, like, creates an ecosystem where the hate is what's dictating the conversation. And so, yeah, I would argue that that means that our ecosystems are not healthy.

and not, you know, functioning properly if hate is able to dictate the conversation, even if it's a small minority of people who feel that way. Absolutely, absolutely. Because I was under the impression. I was totally under the impression, like, oh, this must be a much bigger group of people than I thought, even if I was like, they're wrong and they're full of hate.

I still thought it was way bigger. And the numbers you brought about Megan Markle kind of shocked me with, like, how much smaller they were based on what I have seen. as a casual viewer of this? Absolutely. So let's dig into some of those numbers. So from this bot Sentinel report,

they found that only 83 accounts on Twitter generate 70% of Megan Markle hate content on Twitter. They estimate that these 83 accounts have a potential combined reach of 17 million users. So they broke it down. They found that 55, what we call, single-purpose anti-Megan Markle hate accounts, And so a single-purpose hate account is that account that, like, it only exists to hate on one person.

Like, that's what they're doing. So 55 of those accounts were these, like, primary hate accounts. And then another 28 secondary accounts that, like, mainly amplified them. And so those 28 accounts, they might post about, like, the royals more generally, but that their real function is to boost and amplify when those – that when those other primary accounts put out anti-Macon Markle hate. And so that that's really it. Like they are generating a lot of the hate online.

It is not organic conversation. And it's certainly not a reflection of how just everybody feels on social media. Because these accounts have such a big reach and such a big ability to control the conversation about Megan Markle. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that you've come on and you've talked about a lot on here. is this the responsibility of social media platforms, but also that kind of manipulation towards these hateful accounts

when it comes to the algorithm and like what people see and what gets like more traction, right? Yeah, exactly. And so I have a little bit of a different opinion than a lot of my colleagues in the platform accountability and disinformation space. A lot of people would say single-use hate accounts should be banned from the internet.

Like if you are someone who was writing an account and the only, that account only exists to hate on one specific person, it should be banned. I can understand that view, but I think that the most important thing is that platforms should not be amplifying it. They shouldn't be recommending those accounts to people. When you search Megan Markle information, those accounts should not be the ones that are prioritized and that users see first. What users see first should be like thoughtful, honest information from sites that are, that do not,

exist only to spread hate about this one person. And so it is interesting that, like, on a platform like Twitter, these 83 accounts that are driving most of the conversation around the negative conversation around Megan Markle, they kind of blatantly violate Twitter's rules. Like one of Twitter's rules is that accounts cannot coordinate to dog pile on people to harass them or to like spread negativity around them. Well, these accounts do just that, right? And they do so in like a pretty sophisticated coordination with each other. And yeah, I think it's one of those things where platforms really need to understand what's at stake when this is allowed when like a small handful of accounts are able to

bypass the rules that you have set for your platform in order to artificially control the discourse about one subject. That's not great. No. No, it's not. And it's kind of a frightening, to be honest. And you had a quote, Booze, talked about this, like making the clarification that, like, we can't just blame bots.

Correct? So I find this super interesting because, you know, we often, when it comes to online discourse, talk about, like, well, is it bots? Is it people?

And I feel like the over-focus, like talking about bot is serious and we should be doing that. But when we focus on that and don't also bring into the conversation that sometimes it is real people. I feel like the conversation can be not as useful because it obscures the fact that like, well, it isn't all bot. Some of it is like real people. And so in an interview with BuzzFeed, Boozze said, this campaign comes from people who know how to

manipulate the algorithms, manipulate Twitter, stay under the wire to avoid detection and suspension. This level of complexity comes from people who know how to do this stuff and who are paid to do this stuff. And so, yeah, I think especially what do you think about the fact that people can profit from this. I think it really should behoove these platforms to make a change. I mean, that's the big conversation is that people are making money

and can make a living off of this and why is this something that is profitable? So it's not just they're making money, but they're profiting and literally off of hate. Because over here, I have at least four times the amount of the bots following me and I can only get three people to look at my tweets.

I mean, how? Come on. Right. That is an outrage. That's an outrage. You're right. But I find that interesting that we have had this continuous talk, and we have these prime examples of what is happening on Twitter specifically. We talked recently about one of the Canadian women who is currently working with Bumble

in making sure that there's safety for the women and those who are on their app, and that one of her big things that she was bringing out the report, showing how Twitter does not help or defend or make Twitter safe for women and marginalized people. And Ipsos just recently came out with a big research data showing that women are still being heavily targeted and are not being helped at all by platforms in general. And that the fact that the matter is people are once again profiting, have become aware of, oh, so we can make money by essentially hitting on women. in women of color and doing so in a way that not only can we get away with it,

not only can we make money, but it's making a difference in people's reaction to this. Yeah, I mean, like, and so you're exactly right. Like the research is, it completely jives with what you're saying. You are exactly, exactly right. And as bad as that is, right? So, like, platforms are, like, I would argue that this kind of negative engagement and harassment and abuse of women of color on these platforms. I would argue that is built into these business models.

Like Twitter, when somebody tweets something that is like crapping on Megan Markle and it's getting lots of engagement, it is in Twitter's best financial interest to boost that and amplify that because it's like, oh, this is clicky. People are paying attention to this. That's a problem. And I also think that, you know, we're talking about Megan Markle, who is a public figure, but she's not a political figure necessarily. We're talking about, you know, Star Wars and like fandom. Think about how that, like as bad as that is, apply that to democracy. Apply that to women and women of color who are trying to run for office. Apply that to women and women of color and other marginalized people

who are trying to engage in our democracy and be part of civic and public life. And so the implications really become clear. If it's this bad for conversations that are, you know, about pop culture and, like, celebrities, imagine how big the stakes are when that same dynamic is applied to people who are just trying to run for office or just trying to make their voices heard and participate fully in our democracy.

Right. And one report we were talking about, they were specifically focusing on journalists and talking about this is a part of their job description and I think about that all the time. I'm like, oh, my God, because technically it's a part of our job description and I hate it.

I hate it so much because I don't want to become a focal point at any point, not that we are, thank God, because we go under the radar as well. Like I said, two people like my tweets. It's fine. But we go under the radar enough that, you know, we don't have to deal with that. But for someone who has, who's being told if you don't get your views up, you're not going to get paid or you're not going to stay in this job. I couldn't imagine that level.

So I actually literally just left a summit all about this as it pertains to journalism. And when I was a kid, I wanted to be a journalist, right? Like I was obsessed with April O'Neill from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I like wanted to be a journalist. journalist. Like that was like the career that I wanted to go into. And today, the fact that young women, like, who are younger, go into journalism, like, like willingly, it surprises me. Because I think a lot of women have, women are smart enough to realize if I'm going, if the cost of doing this job is dealing with online abuse, online harassment, online violence,

and my male counterparts are not dealing with it the same. way that I am. So it's just like an extra woman tax or, you know, marginalization tax in the workplace. And institutions largely do not know how to support women who are going through this and dealing with this. And so it's like just their problem, there's an assumption that the person who is the focal point of harassment and abuse, that they've done something to warrant it. And that completely is not how it works. Like, oftentimes the thing that they're doing is like existing as a woman. And so think about what we are asking women to deal with. It's just completely unfair, and we're asking them to deal with it

and not even talk about the issue, right? And so it sets up a completely unfair dynamic. When I think about how many people have either just given up on this as a career, they're just like, I'm not going to get on social media, it's not worth it. It has the ability to suppress women from being involved in public and civic life. And the worst part is, is like, we were just now talking about it. We're so late in bringing it up. Right.

And that's, in fact, these reports are specific to Twitter, but it's been happening. It's been happening on bigger platforms than other social media is, right? Oh, absolutely. It is. I don't want to give the impression that it is just Twitter because that is not the case. So Bot Sentinel also analyzed YouTube accounts, and they found that because of YouTube monetization, trashing Megan Merkel is actually big, lucrative business. they found that 25 YouTube channels

earned around 3.5 million from ad revenue and that three of the most successful anti-Meghan Merkel accounts generated almost $500,000 during their existence. And these videos are like, it's not like they're filming, you know, I got... Make up the tutorial.

I know, like, yeah, it's not like, like they're low-quality videos that basically just traffic in conspiracy theories and outright lies and, like, racist, stereotypes and tropes, right? And so, like, some of the claims that they'll make is like, oh, Megan Merkel, she faked her pregnancy, she used a surrogate. Like, it's things that are completely baseless lies. And I think that if you are able to make half a million dollars almost

trafficking in baseless lies and conjecture and racism and sexism, you shouldn't be able to, if you're able to make that kind of money from that, something is wrong. Like, something is really broken. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, agreed. Because it's like, not that this always works, but there's been attempts to crack down

on like medical misinformation. Like you can't make money off of that. It's been hit or miss. But there have been attempts. And it seems like if there's just something flatly untrue, you should not be making millions of dollars from it

by saying that it is true. And then just like the the spreading of that and how harmful that is on these platforms and we've seen it and like we said like the trickle effect of people believing

that this is the discourse and so therefore women have it hard enough already like in the public office like I just don't like her there's something about her and to have like just this overwhelming discourse of like no no one likes her

and so it just it just seems so toxic and that people are making money from it is very frustrating and I definitely agree that means something is wrong here. Yeah, and I want to be clear, like, I didn't really have strong feelings

about Megan Markle. I like that she's a black princess, or was a black princess and yeah, I know she wasn't really princess, but whatever. But like, if you don't like Megan Markle, that's fine. It's totally within your right to be like, I don't like her, rub us me the wrong way, whatever. We all have people that we don't like.

But that is very different than, you know, I am going to spearhead a coordinated campaign to make it seem like everybody doesn't like her. And that campaign is going to be built on racism, sexism, and lies about who she is. And I say that because when you do that, you're making us all less safe. It truly does threaten our democracy

when you're able to tell those kinds of inflammatory lies and have them take up so much space in the room, it makes all of us that much less safe, particularly women and women of color. It makes it so much harder for us to thrive in environments where we can be judged on our character, things that we actually do and actually say, not made up conspiracy theories about us putting microphones in our panties,

right? Like, we need to have a discourse where honest, thoughtful, accurate conversation about who we are as marginalized people dominates and crap like that does not. Yeah. Yeah. I remember very vividly this essay I read a while back that was like, you know, if a woman stands up

and then Town Square and is saying something is wrong here, and a thousand men threaten her with violence and are screaming over her, whose, like, freedom of speech is being threatened here? Because it feels like that, because, like you said, so many people leave, so many marginalize people and women leave because they're facing this, what they feel,

what is, this, like, shouting, hateful vitriol that makes you feel unsafe in this space, and it makes it impossible for us to have these healthy conversations that are necessary and needed for a democracy. Absolutely. I would also argue that, like, it's by design. It's meant to gum up the works. It's meant to have people who are interested in actual discussion and dialogue

to check out and be like, no, thanks, don't want to risk it by putting my thoughts out there. And it's meant to make sure that we can't find unity, that we can't come together, that we can't make progress on all the issues that are impacting us and have the conversations that we need to have that might move us forward on those issues. Right, right. Well, Bridget, has there been any changes? Is there any hope to discuss? There is a little bit of hope, right?

So earlier, so I mentioned how on YouTube, people are able to make big, basically just running single-purpose hate accounts against Megan Markle. Not anymore. Earlier this year, YouTube made a big change. They der-ranked anti-Megon-Marker results from their search. In a really great BuzzFeed piece by Ellie Hall, which shout out to Ellie Hall. She has done some fantastic reporting on Megan Markle and race and culture and what it all means.

Ellie Hall writes, but now you'll only find videos from verified accounts and news outlets in the YouTube search results for Megan Markle. and first recommendations in the sidebar, even if you explicitly searched for and started watching videos that accuse Megan Markle of being a narcissist or videos claiming that she wore a fake belly to make herself look pregnant,

YouTube's recommendation sidebar won't initially serve you similar videos. And so I do think that that is a step in the right direction. Like I got to give it to YouTube that that was a good call because, yeah, when you search any topic, but let's use Megan Markle in his example, it should not be in YouTube's best interest for the first search results, for the things that they're promoting, for the recommended videos that they're surfacing to you,

to be videos from people whose whole thing is hating on that one thing, right? It should be honest, accurate content. I would love to throw in thoughtful in there, but I think if we can just get accurate, that would be great. That would be a great start. Bars are so low for just, just do this, because it's gotten so off the rail. And it's just like, just be true.

At least if you're going to say Megan Margle is married to Prince Harry, just say that. Just end it with that. I'll watch that over anything else. Let's just have to be accurate. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an

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And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHard. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's Iheartadvertising.com. Hey, I'm Jared Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet. Help! Somebody! Please! But there's so much more to me than me. I'm an actor. I'm a comedian. And recently, I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, hope from a hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions.

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This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura Podcast Network available on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing That man, hell get the flying He ran up the court Licking his fingers why he got the ball

Like, after you go through a training camp With that Isaiah, you figure it out real quick Get your ass up and down the court And you're gonna get the ball So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts This is the biggest conversation Like why is it significant

When people talk about Megan Markle knew what she was coming into Again it's just one of those places of like, but she just got married. But that's the end. She didn't want to be a princess because so many accusations came at her. They were like, you know what? We're leaving this royal family stuff.

We're done. We're done because we're getting attacked from every circle. Whether she's a gold digger slash, I guess, a royalty digger. Is that a name? Is that something? Or versus to her want to disrupt a family, all of these things. What just happened was they got set up. They are famous.

She wasn't that famous. She was an actress. She was good at her job. She could have kept going. She met him, got married, and that's it. She's not trying to be political. She's not trying to be royalty. She just wants to be a part of our family,

has some really good, good relationship with her mother, bad relationship with bother. Just being that. And because of that, she's getting all this vitriol being compared to the other royalties. We know what this is. We know what this looks like. And for her who is not even on social media,

who continues to be attacked, It's just one of those parts of like, she doesn't deserve this. There's nothing that she did that deserves this. There's no conversation where we think that this is earned. And she put herself out there. She's not a politician taking a stance on anything. She's just being. Like, that's it.

Yeah, something that you said, I hadn't even really thought about this, but I think that people's reactions to Megan Markle really demonstrate how women of color, especially are really not allowed to publicly be multifaceted, complex humans. It's like the fact that like, oh, she has a, you know, complicated relationship with her father, who doesn't?

Right? Like, they use these incredibly human things where it's like, yeah, welcome to being a human in relationships with other humans. Sometimes these things happen. Like, they find these incredibly human things that we all experience and they use it or they frame it. or they frame it as like a negative against her in these ways that I just think are just completely transparent

and it's so obvious what's happening. And the way that they talk about her with this like, I'll say this, they're quite good at talking about her with this plausible deniability of like, oh, I didn't mean that racially. When I called her Compton Kate, even though she's not from Compton, I didn't mean anything racially, like racially motivated there. I was just saying she's from California. and Compton is also a city in California.

Hmm. You know what I mean? It also exists. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, again, I feel like we need a new segment, Bridget, where you come on and we do, like, ramps.

But I feel like this, there's so much of this that is, like, questioning women's ambition, and it still seems to be in this very, like, old system of royalty, like, oh, she's just trying to, marry into the royal family, we can't trust anything she does. And she's trying to ruin this tradition by being her. And like just constantly questioning and calling out what women's intentions are. And they're almost always evil, I guess.

It's funny because I find myself having, I mean, these systems are so ingrained that I'm not immune to it. Like I, when I read articles about ambitious women, like, I have to really check myself internally and be like, well, are you really just like adding this like sexist trope on to this woman that assumes that she must be, you know, misleading this like simple childlike man who doesn't know any better? And oftentimes the answer is yes. And I have to step back and be like, well, let's unpack why your assumption was that this woman who is ambitious and powerful must be, you know, know, calling the shots and misleading this like dullard of a man. Isn't that kind of insulting to both of them? But yeah, it just goes to show like how ingrained these systems are and how insidious they are and the work that each individual needs to do to unpack them and myself very much included. Right. Yeah, me, all of us, I think. We all have these things that we just didn't realize

we'd internalize so much. And something like this, you know, the Royal Farrant. family, Megan Markle, can seem kind of frivolous. It's not, but it can kind of feel that way because celebrity culture kind of insights that a lot. But as we've been alluding to a lot throughout this, it does matter, right? Oh, it matters hugely. Like, I would say that the reaction to Megan Markle

really shows how easy it is for a relatively small amount of people to create an effective negative echo chamber that can be fueled by things like racism and sexism. You know, again, if it's... 83 accounts are able to generate the majority of negative chatter about one person and create the impression inorganically that that is the overall sentiment of that person, it kind of means that our digital landscape and our platforms might not be so healthy. Yes, yes.

And I don't think we went over this, but they were those, the people who are doing this, who are running these accounts know what they're doing. They know how to manipulate the system. We talked about that, but they have very specific ways. So if we are on working in these systems where these 83 people can just manipulate these rules and kind of skate being banned

and these what some people who are maybe casual Twitter users or have users assume like oh Twitter has these rules they'll kick people off but that's not working either right? No it's not working right and so I would say the fact that platforms

still allow this largely is a big problem right The fact that it's profitable that you can make money from it, and I think it's incentivized. And so, again, like we, it's, these 83 people are bad actors, but also more institutionally, platforms need to do something to make sure that a relatively small handful of people can't hijack an entire conversation about a subject. And again, I know that a lot of people that I respect

would say that the answer is to ban single-issue hate accounts or single-person hate accounts that we should be banning those. And I, again, I... I think that there's always going to be people who their thing is hating on other public figures. And so I don't necessarily think that those people should not be able to do that. Like, I don't love it. And like, I wouldn't recommend it. And I would never be friends with somebody who would do that. And I would never do that.

But I feel like there's always going to be people who are hell bent on hating on others. And I think that's just like a reality of the world that we live in. But even so, platforms don't have to make money off of it, profit off of it, amplify it, normalize it, you know, like they can take some accountability. And so I don't know. I think that the real, for me at least, the real problem here is what happens when platforms just allow this and it becomes the norm. Because I really have seen the way that this same dynamic can be applied to political

leaders, women running for office, women journalists. And I think the implications when you apply it that way really become clear. It's, they're quite dire. And yeah, people can make money off of it. The fact that we're looking at Forbes magazine with TikTok stars talking about how the number one stars make it almost $20 million per year, it's kind of like, wait, what? And the realization is literally TikTok,

the platform helped elevate these individuals and have made them a household market and have made them profitable and have created a new genre of celebrities. Is that a thing? Yeah, like a new marketplace. Right. I mean, the fact is they have a lot of power, whether we want to admit it or not. And it plays into, obviously, as you were talking about, Star Wars, it plays into movies,

it's played into what's being created, it plays into what's being pulled, it's played into who ends up being on, who ends up becoming leaders. It absolutely affects everything. And when it's specifically targeted to silence, marginalized individuals, like what has happened with Megan Merkel, but she got it. off of social media. We've seen many teen celebrities, young girls, get off social media because it's the constant berating, constant trolling, that it becomes a thing. We've seen individuals being terrorized for making a comment about someone's favorite musician. It's the whole level of like,

what is happening and the fact that this has allowed to happen and there's no one who seemingly controls it, even though it's under a platform that is a private company. Exactly. I mean, I couldn't have put it better myself. And when I think about the ways that that the younger generation, the generation coming up behind me, they're largely like an online generation. And so they're learning about politics and the world around them and civic engagement from the Internet. The ways that they exert that power and those voices are largely online.

If our online systems are so toxic that people don't even want to be part of them, that is an entire generation of marginalized young people who early on have just checked out. and that is a huge problem. Yeah, yeah. And on top of that, I think of kind of the toxic messaging we get from a very young age as women. And so you internalize some of this stuff. And then if you were exposed to these social platforms that are just reinforcing all that toxic messaging,

that's not good. That's very, very bad. Yes. Yeah. It's bad. And I guess, like, I just strongly feel. that we all deserve better. Like, we can have better.

The reason why things are not better, I would argue, or because it's lining the pockets of mostly white, straight, cis men who build these systems and profit from them. And, fuck them. We deserve better. I don't care if they all go bankrupt if it means that we can have something better for the rest of us. Yes.

Eat the rich. I like it. I love it. Well, thank you so much as always, Bridget. It was a delight to have you. Every time we have these, I'm like, well, we've got to talk about this, we've got to talk about this, we've got to talk about this. So are there any resources you want to shout out?

Where can the listeners find you both? Well, I definitely recommend checking out Bot Sentinels work. They put out research briefings that are so fascinating. And Christopher Busei has done such a good job of really helping me understand what's happening on the Internet. So definitely check them out. You can follow me on Twitter at Bridget-Marie or on Instagram at Bridgett. Maria D.C. And check out my podcast. There are no girls on the internet. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you do that. Listeners, absolutely do that. Listeners, you would like to contact us. You can or email is Stuffmedia.mastaf at iHeartmedia.com. You can find us on Twitter at Mom Stuff.

Or on Instagram at Stuff I've never told you. Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina. Thank you, Christina. And thanks to you for listening. So I've never told you as a protection of IHartRadio. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, you can check out the AHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats.

So we, too, can better understand how to face our own. seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs.

We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in. He's like, you know, I love you, dog.

You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva. And on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be? I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered conversations from night sweats to futas to scheduling sacks.

Wait, what sex? Is it just me? Or does every woman my age want to look at Pinterest instead of? having sex sometimes. They say we can't polish a turn, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Tiana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.

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