There Are No Girls on the Internet - WTF is going on at Netflix? BEST OF TANGOTI

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

WE’RE DOING A LIVE SHOW in NYC and VIRTUALLY on 5/28! Get tickets: Tangoti.com/live 150 staffers, many of them from marginalized identities, were laid off from Netflix amid the company’s first dip in subscribers in over a decade. Let’s revisit our conversation with B. Pagels-Minor, a former Netflix program manager, who was fired in the wake of Dave Chapelle’s transphobic comedy special. Netflix Blames You for Its Stock Problems, but the Real Problem Is Netflix: https://gizmodo.com/netflix-subscribers-stock-down-why-1848892573 Read B’s piece in the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/10/21/netflix-walkout-b-pagels-minor-fired-chappelle/ Donate to the Trans Lifeline: https://translifeline.org/donate/ Donate to the Transgender Law Center: https://transgenderlawcenter.org/donate Join our newsletter: Tangoti.com/newsletter Want to support the show? (thank you!) Subscribe, tell a friend, leave a review, or buy some merch at There Are No Girls on the Internet’s store: TANGOTI.COM/STORE Say hello at [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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There's a lot going on at Netflix. For the first time in over a decade, the streaming service lost subscribers. Netflix lost about 200,000 subscribers, where it originally is. expected to gain 2.5 million. And they also said that they expect to lose 2 million more subscribers in the second quarter. So who is Netflix blaming for this poor showing? Us, the viewers, for sharing passwords. But Gizmodo spoke to media analyst Michael Patcher,

who is pretty dubious of the idea that sharing passwords is to blame, saying it's just the dumbest idea whatsoever. Incidents of password sharing did not grow materially during the quarter. They've always known about it. it, he said. And Netflix pretty much agreed. The company acknowledged that a letter to investors that account sharing, as a percentage of our paying membership, hasn't changed much over the years. So, as Oprah might say, what is the truth? Netflix laid off 150 staffers, about 2% of the United States workforce, many of whom are black, brown, queer, and trans staffers who were specifically

courted from other jobs to lead initiatives that champion inclusion at Netflix. Layoffs, gutted popular programs. Like Strong Black Lead, a vertical for black content, which is often held up as a shining example of how to market and build community around inclusive content. Other verticals that focus on content, specifically for marginalized communities, were also gutted by layoffs, like the Latinx-focused contoto, Asian-American focus golden, and the LGBTQ focus vertical most. Now, it's unclear what will happen to these initiatives or to inclusive content at Netflix going forward. But the company may have given us a little bit of a hint in a recent update to their culture memo, which basically says if staffers don't want to

associate with offensive content they may put out, they should just quit. It says, if you'd find it hard to support our content breadth, Netflix may not be the best place for you. Now, this is probably a reference to content like Dave Chappelle's Netflix comedy special that led the staff walkouts and turmoil last fall. Be Paggles Minor, a black, trans, then-pregnant Netflix employee who was fired when the company accused them of leaking the fact that Netflix paid Dave Chappelle $24.1 million for his comedy special that included transphobic content. B gave us lots of good insight into the culture at Netflix. So let's revisit our conversation from this past fall. After the release of Dave Chappelle's new comedy special The Closer on Netflix, Netflix staffers and their ally spoke up about the specials transphobic material and organized a walk out. Chappelle doubled down in a newly released clip, where he said Netflix staff said they wanted a safer work environment,

but that he's the only one who's not able to get into the building at Netflix anymore. It seems like I'm the only one that can't go to the office anymore. But you want to know someone who most definitely cannot get back into the Netflix building? Be Pagles Minor, a very pregnant black trans former program manager who Netflix fired for alleging they were the source of a Bloomberg article about just how much money Netflix spent on the special. Now, B disputes this, as do their coworkers. And even after B was fired, Bloomberg continues to publish new internal metrics from Netflix, making it even more unlikely. B, along with Tara Field, a trans Netflix senior software engineer who was suspended for tweeting critically about the special,

have filed suits with the National Labor Relations Board, saying that Netflix engaged in activity to quell employees from speaking off about working conditions, including seeking to create a safe and affirming work environment, speaking up about Netflix products and the impact its product choices have on the LGBT community and providing support for employees whom Netflix has treated in an unlawful and disparate manner. And as much as Dave Chappelle keeps talking about how he's being canceled, you know, naturally as one does from a massive stage in front of a massive adoring audience while earning millions for it, the demands of the Netflix staffers who walked out do not include asking Netflix to take down the comedy special. Instead, Netflix

staffers are asking for things like comparable investment in trans and non-binary-led projects at Netflix and more trans and non-binary people in leadership positions. Be is clear that this is about so much more than one comedy special. So my name is B. Pagel's Minor. My pronoun are they, them, theirs, and my current title is Growing a Baby. And that's about it. So I read your Washington Post piece, and I read the piece on your blog, both of which really talked about this journey for you really kind of fully embracing who you are. I guess one of my questions for you was like, what was it like to feel seen in that way, you know, to share this truth about yourself? Like, were you, did you feel seen working at Netflix? Was it something that, you know, felt like a good fit? Yeah, you know, it's really interesting because I would say yes and no, right? So like in terms of the internal environment and Netflix,

I definitely felt like I had a lot of support to be a black person, a trans person, a lesbian, you know, loud, you know, someone who dissents very loudly, things like that. But one of the complaints I've always had and something that obviously is coming up again here is the lack of content. So it was so strange to be like this internal employee, feel pretty validated, feel pretty supported. But then when I looked at the things that were on screen, I didn't see anything that looked like me. And that cognitive dissonance was one of the things that bothered me most about working there, right? You know, I really wanted to say, like, you know, first of all, I'm from Mississippi. There are black, actually, the majority of Mississippi is black, right? Majority of Mississippi is also rural.

You know, why don't we have shows about that? I watched P. Valley last year, and it was so funny because my friends were like, P. Valley doesn't seem like your type of show. I was like, it's about black people in Mississippi. I was so excited. I was like, I finally get to see people who are like my family that I grew up around. And so it was always like that little bit of like, yes, I feel good because I have great benefits. I have a great salary.

I get to be loud. I'm doing some of the best work of my life. But no, because I really feel like we're missing the mark on showing representative lives of diverse types of people. Conversations around identity and representation at Netflix did not start. with Dave Chappelle. Internally, Netflix staffers have been pushing these conversations about whose story gets told and by who and how for years. Like many companies, Netflix has employee resource groups or ERGs, employee-led initiatives within a company that work to create inclusivity along certain demographics and identities. There's dream at Netflix to champion

immigrant representation, black at Netflix, Lechayam at Netflix for Jewish representation, Vetsflicts for veteran representation, indigenous at Netflix, and more. TransStar is the ERG that champions trans identity and representation at Netflix, that B helped lead. And after the release of the film Girl, a 2019 Belgian film about a trans ballet dancer that faced criticism for its depiction of things like body dysmorphia and self-harm in the trans community. It's so easy for people to think that these conversations happening internally around Netflix

and the content they produce, and sort of the way that the content represents or does not represent all folks, you know, trans identities, all of that. It's easy to think that those conversations began and ended with this Dave Chappelle's special. But we know that's not true. Can you give me a little bit of a history lesson of where these conversations at Netflix actually did start?

So the trans-specific conversations started around the release of Girl. So the Girl movie, it was definitely a misrepresentation of trans culture. And that's when, you know, it was almost three years ago. That's when people first started asking questions about, hey, like, why did we put that out there? This is harmful content. It's not true. It's a terrible representation of transculture. Separately, I was also the ERG lead for Blackette, right?

And the Black Ed is the oldest ERG out of all the ERGs. And they've been talking about that for like six or seven years. Right? So for six or seven years, they've been talking about Black content, Black representation, making sure content's there. So the conversation around content and having it be representative is in the DNA, of Netflix for diverse people who've worked there. The question is simply then, why the heck has it not moved forward?

Like, why the heck have we not gotten to the point that the content really reflects all of this internal debate, internal conversation that's been very, very robust? And in fact, when you actually think about it, you know, a lot of the comments that have been made is, oh, well, Netflix is one of the first places that ever had a trans person. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we know we've

was on oranges of new black. You know, we know, you know, know me from Sensei, but at the same time, if you can only name two or three, that's probably not a good way to go about this. You know? And then we also know when Laverne was on Orange's and New Blacks, they were dubbing her

words with men in other countries. Right? Yes, they really were. I did not know that. And it was so offensive. And, for instance, Transstar is another great example of when Transstar was consulted by the dubbing team and they were like, so how should we deal with this in the future? And we were like, well, you know, we understand that in different countries, in different languages, it might be

difficult to find someone who perfectly matches someone's voice. And if that is the case, just ask the person what they think. You know, don't, don't just make an arbitrary decision, seek out support, create relationships, and honor people by letting them be representing the way that makes most sense to them. Right. You know, that actually brings up a good point, which is that I was very surprised to hear that the trans employee resource group was not really consulted at all in the rollout of this special. And so part of me was like, why even have this group at Netflix if you're not going to actually empower them to be involved when things like this are rolled out? And so for the sake of argument, let's say that the trans employee resource group had been consulted during this rollout. Are there things that you could have seen y'all actually like suggesting to make this less harmful?

Yeah. And that's been, that's actually been the number one point here. Like, there's no desire to stop creative freedom, right? Like, the simple fact is there are contracts. You move forward with the content based on those contracts, but there's no desire to stop them. And so when I, you know, thought about it, when I first saw it, I was just like, why did y'all decide to release this in October during LGBTQ Plus history month?

Like, that's a terrible idea. You know, why did you not think about the term turf and how that, because that became the, like, claxon. Like, that became the thing. and everyone was focused on. And in fact, it was external groups who were just like, you know, Dave Chappelle's a turf,

Netflix released this. It was all external people who were completely incensed that they saw something like that. And so like, you know, we could have said, you know, the TransDard group could have said, by the way, you may want to just cut that joke. Like, you know, you may want to like, you know, tweak that or like ask, and the thing is,

and when I say that, I mean, talk to Dave about it and say, Dave, your bigger point is this like, LGBTQ plus movement versus black movement. And your point is going to get lost because of this statement. Right. And so it's about making the content get to his point versus having all of this furor around it. And so that's the thing.

That's what TransStar does. That's what TransStar does. One of the other things that I did as TransStar lead was also to meet with content executives. And I call it the friendship offensive. And all we would do is go have conversations with these folks and say, hey, we're humans. We're great. We can help you make great content. And I'm going to tell you some of the pieces of, you know, productions that we worked on, I know for a fact that they're so much better.

Because we just sat down with those people and told them different ways. And they would send us emails and say, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? And all we did was consult. You know, it was never, oh, like, you know, we are the, we are the barrier to this amazing thing being created. It was how can we make it better so that Netflix's reputation isn't harmed, so that trans people aren't harmed, and so that people get a good message out of it. That's such a good point because the only thing I have heard about this comedy special is the transphobia and the turf comments and the J.K. Rowling comments. Whatever the other point Dave was trying to make, it did not reach me. It did not reach Twitter. And I have to wonder, like,

was that actually, like, I feel like if he had been open to be thought partners with you all, his special would have been that much better, that much more, you know, just that much more truthful and authentic. And it's like, what a missed opportunity to make something better and also less harmful. Like, what a win-win that was just missed. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I saw someone tweet, they were like, I haven't seen anyone drop a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, video, a gift, a meme of the special that had a joke in it. And they were like, how can the special be successful if they haven't dropped the single one? And I was like, you have a point. They've only dropped the really incendiary thing.

And so to your point, it is true. Like, you know, I do feel like the special could have been so much more powerful if there had been that partnership. Because I do think, I understand what he's trying to say. I disagree with it. Right. And I would say this because to a certain the special is trying to pit LGBTQ plus versus the civil rights movement. I am a black trans person. I'm at the intersection of these two groups. I get screwed over by both groups, right? Like, like, legitimately I get screwed over by both groups. And so, like, I do think that this oppression Olympics, like one movement hurting another movement, I don't think that's true. In fact, if you think about the same-sex marriage law that went into effect many years ago, they actually, you know,

use loving versus Virginia as part of their their, their, their, logic behind it because they're saying that minority individuals deserve the same rights as anyone else in this country. And so I actually think that both the civil rights movement, the LGBTQ rights movement are intrinsically linked and we would be empowered by uniting them versus assuming that one happens over the other one. And it just, I mean, I completely agree. We're definitely, our movements are stronger together when we support each other. And it completely erases people at the intersections like yourself. Something about Dave's comedy seems to suggest that LGBT, the LGBT, it's like that book, all the women are white, all the men are black, right?

Like, all the LGBTQ folks are just default white. All of the black folks are default cis. And it's like, it completely erases that people exist at those intersections in a way that I feel like it's so like 1997. Like, like get your, get your attitudes and your ideas into. of 2021, you know? Exactly, exactly. And a simple fact is, you know, I think it was time like three or four years ago. They were talking about what the future of the world is going to look like. And all those people had melin it.

Okay. Right. Like that's, I mean, let's just be truthful. The way that the world is actually changing, the way that it's actually evolving. I mean, even Gen Z, such a large percentage of Gen Z around the world is completely open to not only LGBTQ plus people, but they're coming out increasingly earlier. Right. So you know, you have like, you know, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, you know, year old come out and saying, yeah, I'm a part of the LGBTQ plus community, which is not something that has ever happened before. The world is changing

rapidly, right? And so the fact that we continue to have these, like, very antiquated conversation is just very disturbing to me and is a sign of how some people are, like, this is why you have to be thoughtful and you have to listen, right? Like, I am now considered an elder, like, because, you know, I'm over a certain age. I'm an elder now, right, in my community. Because in the trans community, most, like, so there's been a statistic that says that many black trans people do not make it to the age of 35. I am not over 35. So I'm like a grandparent. Like, that's how, that's how they perceive me. And it's just so interesting to me because even for me, I have to take a step back and listen to the younger people because they're like, you're more conservative than I am. And I was like, oh,

I guess I am, right? Because I grew up in a completely different generation. I came out much later because I was afraid and you don't have that through mechanism that keeps you from being your whole self. And I actually admire you. What do you mean me to help you with? Because you're so much further along than I was. And all I'm trying to do is make sure that you have a safe place land. That's beautiful. First of all, I would have never thought you were over 35. But that's so beautiful. You know, so that's black, don't crap. It's so true. Let's take a quick break.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge.

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We'll have amazing guests a meet and greet and much, much more. Go to tangoity.com slash live and get your tickets, and I cannot wait to see you there. At our back. In 1987, Eddie Murphy released his stand-up special Eddie Murphy Raw. And Murphy has this whole bit about how gay people didn't like his homophobic jokes,

and how whenever he goes out to parties or out on the town, he feels like there's going to be a gay mob out looking for him. Only, he doesn't say gay people. He uses a slur. And there won't be no siren. It'll be a real fag sitting on the roof going, Woo, woo, woo, woo! Now something about this.

line, the idea of a gay person strapped to the top of a car as a siren really stuck with me. And the takeaway for me when I was watching was that gay people are basically less than human and that pointing this out is funny. I mean, like, listen to this crowd. They were loving it. And I interpreted that making fun of gay people was a clear pathway to acceptance from others. Now, I was watching this when I was just a kid. I'd already known that something was up with me, but I had not yet come the terms with being a queer person.

And I watched the way that these kinds of jokes about gay people got Eddie Murphy so much loud, clear acceptance from other black people. And it was confusing to me at a time when I was already really confused. In 2019, Eddie Murphy actually revisited his past homophobic comedy routines. In an interview with The New York Times, he said that he looks back on all those old jokes in cringes. I was a young guy processing a broken heart, and kind of an asshole, he said. He apologized for spreading homophobia and ignorant comments about HIV. saying that he's much more educated now.

I now have a whole lifetime of experiences to draw upon. There was a time when I was at the center of everything, what I was doing and how funny I was and how popular I was. I'm not the center anymore, he said. Now, instead of rarely against being canceled by the PC police, he reflected, he evolved. There's this attitude I've heard over and over again that what a comedian says on stage is just a joke.

It doesn't have any real world impact. Now, there are scores of studies that suggest otherwise. And B puts it another way. If someone is starting out from a place where many of the messages around them are telling them that they aren't even a full person, adding to that chorus makes things that much harder. Something that I'm kind of almost sick of hearing is this idea that like, oh, it's just jokes, it's just jokes. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that study after study has shown, you know, a direct correlation between transphobic rhetoric and anti-transviolence. And so, you know, what do you say to people who are like, oh, how?

Comedy specials don't translate to real-world harm. Like, what do you probably, I know that I have heard that argument over and over again. Like, what do we say to stuff like that? So first of all, we know that's not 100% true. Because if that was not, if that was true, then a five-year-old to watch a wait at our movie. Right. Like, we know that the content on the screen impacts people. Now, the thing is, is that that doesn't mean that like today, after they watch the special,

they're going to go out and beat up someone who's trans. But that does mean that someone is forming an opinion about trans people based on the content that they're seeing and that they could be discriminatory towards trans people or they could be violent towards trans people later. We also know that the content that exists on the stream also internally impacts the people who are the target of that content. Right. So like, you know, we also think about self-harm.

If you're seeing this type of content, if you're seeing people talk about, about this and this type of dialogue. And you already are in a place where you're not a whole person, right? You know, I was, when I first started out, I used to tell people, you know, naturally, I am, I wake up every day with my glass half empty, right? I'm a diverse person. I'm a multi-diverse person. And so I hear constantly, whether it's about me being black and potentially being less

than, whether it's about me being non-male and somehow not being strong, whether it's about me being trans and my difference there. Whether it's about me, you know, being marital woman and how different that is. You know, what is you like about me being married to a white woman and how I've betrayed my race? Like, all of these things

are coming through constantly. And so, when you put out this content, all it's doing is trying to diminish the little bit that's in that glass, right? A little bit of hope in the dreams there. I'm very fortunate because I have an amazing,

support system and I have an amazing amount of education and fiscal ability because I've been so successful in technology for so long that I've been able to fill that glass back up to almost full but many people cannot and so when you think about this content all it's doing is diminishing the potential of those people and then we lose out on that potential like as a society we are literally losing out on bright lights who could help change this world because of the content we're choosing to push through out there without also making sure that we put out affirming content too. How hard is it to make another pose? Really? Pose was pretty cheap. It was really cheap. We could make like five poses and people would be so happy. That's such a good point.

And I think it takes me to this idea that is obviously bullshit, but this idea, but this idea, that, oh, these Netflix staffers, they want to cancel Dave Chappelle. But when you actually look at the demands that staffers were putting forth at Netflix, it's stuff like, you know, can we invest in a comparable way for trans and gender non-conforming and non-binary creators? You know, can we elevate trans content like the disclosure documentary, which I love, you know, can we promote that on the platform? It is such common sense things. And yet it gets sort of, I don't know, telephoned into they want to cancel Dave Chappelle. And I guess my question is, how do we combat this idea when there are so many people who are just hell bent on believing

the absolute worst about the intentions here? Because when you actually look at the demands, it's just like what you're saying, like invest in trans and gender nonconforming creators. And that will actually improve the platform. Netflix will be better for it. And yet that gets sort of mistranslated into something that's just that completely not true. I mean, Oprah said it best. Oprah was just like, there's just some people who are not going to convince. Right? You're just not going to convince.

That's not the people we're trying to convince. We're trying to find that middle ground of people. The middle ground of people who are still trying to learn to be educated, who just want to know more. And so that's the main thing I'm focusing on, right? The reason I agree to go on these podcasts and things like that is to spread this message. Because the people who listen to you, the people who are looking at the outfit, those people are the ones who still have that ability to be swayed.

And the thing about that is, is if we sway a few of those people, they're also related to them other people, right? And so hopefully they'll go in and say, hey, I want to hear that today. Right. And also this new thing, hopefully, if Netflix moves forward with meeting some of these demands, there'll be a new piece of content out there at some point that they watch that has a trans character that they love just because it's a good show. And then eventually that'll work out.

Like this is a long term. This is a marathon. This is not a short-term thing. We're not going to change everyone's mind short-term. And the thing is we shouldn't. If it was that easy to change people's minds, this wouldn't be such hard work, right? When you think about, you know, the other day,

Whoopi Oldberg was talking about the civil rights movement, and she was talking about the fact that if we had waited for people, to change their mind on the value of black people, black people still wouldn't have a right to vote today. And I feel as though this is the same exact conversation. The same as that conversation that, you know, there's still so much movement we have to do for trans people, for black people, for women, for Latinx people, for Asian people.

This is a nonstop marathon to have diverse people be seen as equal and have the equity they deserve in this. country. The conditions that you all are creating, I think, can create change that it's lasting, this meaningful, that reverberates. It does not begin and end with Dave Chappelle's Funky Special. Like, this is a movement that has longer term longevity. And I just love to see that. And I feel like in every statement and, you know, thing that the staffers have put out, that's been so salient to me. So I've just, like, loved to see that so much. You know, one of the things that I, it's kind of a personal pet peeve of mine. So many of the people that I talk to on this

podcast, you know, they are marginalized people, they are historically underrepresented people, they work in tech companies, tech platforms. They're the ones who are putting in all this hard work of making these companies and these platforms look progressive or woke or with it. Now, internally, they might be ostracized for this work. They might be punished for this work. They might be fired for this work. But the companies are super okay with taking credit. for it and being like, yeah, we're a woke company. We're so progressive. Yeah, all of that. You know, do you feel like that sort of happening here that it is staffers who are already marginalized, who are making, like giving Netflix the shine to be like, oh, we are with it,

woke, progressive, new, fresh, all of that, but also behind the scenes punishing those same staffers? You know, the one thing I will say is that there had been an internal movement before I was like go to start rewarding people who work with ERGs financially, right? You know, to take that into account for their review. It was the first time I'd ever been at a company that it actually had that conversation. But I will say that this is thankless work typically, right? You know, you're doing all this work to create an environment that's great, that makes the company look great.

And a lot of people don't really see that as a part of your work. and so that's something that needs to change, right? Because ERG work, not only does it, you know, help the company see what's going wrong, but it also helps retain talent. I can't tell you how many times I was asked to participate in something, whether it was, you know, trans or black ad, that helped make sure that a person didn't leave Netflix, right? Because I was able to help negotiate and explain to people what was going on.

You know, when it came to the company culture, making sure that they understood where the culture had issues. You know, that type of work is super, super important. And it also is something that, you know, is it's invaluable, right? It's invaluable. There's no way to calculate how much that does for the company. And so I do think that this is something companies really need to think about is, is how do you figure out what that value is? Because it is a differentiator between you retaining someone and not retaining someone. People want to work at companies where they feel respected and safe. And I think that like that is a conversation that I feel like it's easy to be missed in this particular situation is that like I wouldn't, it doesn't surprise me that people

are not necessarily feeling respected, listen to, seen, heard, valued, safe. And I feel like these days people are unwilling to attach themselves to companies that do not respect them. And I think that's great. But people want to feel respected in their workplaces. And, you know, I think, saw that statement that the CEO of Netflix put out where he was like, oh, you know, I'd handle this badly, all of that, but not seeing the way that that trickles down to the staff. Like the at the top decisions make people feel so disrespected and unseed and unheard and unvalued. And how there are people like yourself who were going in and plugging those leaks and doing the work of doing some recon and saying like, you know, are you thinking about leaving? How are you feeling? Like, talk to me about where you're at, where your head is at, all of that. you know, that is valuable work.

Yeah, and not only that, but also his apology, which I will say is not an apology, said, like, one of them was like, oh, it's because we've been working from home. They forgot how good they have it. And I was like, that's what an abusive relationship said. Yeah. Like, I didn't hit you today so that you should appreciate me.

And I'm just like, but you hit me the other day. Like, I don't, like it doesn't work like that. So yeah, no, I definitely feel like, you know, it missed the mark, right? because it really is more about how do you show up, right? You know, folks asked me, like, what should those emails, those first memos or emails should have said? And I said, it's very simple.

It should have said, hey, we dropped a ball on this one. We should have done a better job. Let's talk. And that's three sentences. His actual memo was like two pages. It doesn't say nothing. Exactly. And so, like, that's the thing.

Apologies are just apologies. Like, you don't have to, like, it doesn't have to be convoluted. You don't have to justify yourself. It is apologize. Have a conversation. Figure out corrective action. Don't do it. More after a quick break.

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podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Egelman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joining. I'm joining by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting.

I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship. To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy. because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety

and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone.

It's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from Pod Meets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge.

That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Yeah. Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season.

From the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of again, we are experts. So make sure to tune in to Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to Pod Meets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. I saw that Dave Chappelle said that he'd be willing. to meet with Netflix staffers. That no longer includes you because Netflix fired you, unfortunately.

Do you think that that would be, like, would you be willing to meet with him? Do you feel like that would be fruitful or productive? Or would that be like, is that just like not even where your head is at? I mean, I'm telling me with him. The whole point of this is to educate people. Right. And Dave says that he cares, right? Like, that's part of his statements too.

He's like, this isn't me versus them. You know, this is about, you know, other things. And so I would be glad to meet with him. And also, I don't have to be there. I could also, you know, if he wants to reach out, I can help him connect next with the Netflix people as well. Because this isn't about me, right? This is about the work and the making sure this work gets done.

And I hope that he would actually listen. And actually, I think he had mentioned recently, he was, you know, he said something like, but you have watched the special. And I'm like, we all have either read the transcript and watch the special. So we've already done all of our homework. I would ask him to look up what turf ideology actually means. And also understand a little bit more about transgender biology, you know, just so we can actually start off on the same playing field in terms of, you know,

what we're talking about. But other than that, let's go for it. In the piece that I read on your blog, you referenced this, like, really famous Baldwin quote, to be a Negro in this country is to be relatively conscious, and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage most of the time. kind of had your own spin on it. You said, to be a black trans person in America is a study in courage and a fierce desire to not be forgotten. And so it just seems like black trans folks are so easily erased and forgotten, not just in this conversation, but everywhere. And, you know,

y'all have always been here. Y'all are part of our history. And I guess I wonder, do you find yourself feeling like you have to constantly create these monuments to your existence so that it doesn't get erased. And not just monuments to your existence, but this idea that, you know, black trans existence is more than just like trauma and pain, making, making sure that there's room for black trans joy, black trans dreams, black trans brilliance. Like, how do we build monuments to all, to be 360 degrees that is black transness? Yeah. You know, it's so funny. I was talking to my cousin because, you know, my cousin, he was talking about, you know, the special and, um, how it didn't hit for him.

And we started talking about black trans people. And on, you know, trans they have remembered. The majority of the names that's going to be read out as people have been killed this year are black trans people. And it's so interesting because those people are just the people we know about. Those are the people who had someone who advocated for them who said this person was a black person. This person was a trans person because many people don't have legal name changes. like they don't have any they don't have people who are affirming of their identity to to represent their story in fact i was telling my cousin that i'm so fortunate because like

my legal name is beat like this is the name i chose my documents show that i'm a trans person there's an entire reflection now in the zeitgeist that said that i am deep so no one can take my story from me right no one can take my story from me and so that is the point is the fact that so many people live these amazing, colorful, beautiful lives that are cut short. And because of the fact that as a society, we're not quite where we need to be to understand and be respectful of that identity, right? It's actually really funny because people talk about that you should have privacy in your home. But what we actually talk about, like what we actually speak for black trans people is that as soon

as you die, your privacy goes away. You become a part of the public conversation and they choose who you. you are. And so that's the thing about all of this. This is about choice. It's like, why do we choose to harm? Why do we choose to defame? Why do we choose to let people be forgotten when we know they existed and they should be honored as such? And so that is the real core piece of this. And so it's an increasing frustrating thing for me. Because even, you know, there's a young man from Mississippi who was killed recently. And his entire family. misgendered him.

And it's his family, it's his chosen family, who has done this work to get out the message of who he was. And I just think it's someone else from Mississippi who is just so fortunate that I get to control my story. I mean, it's like, it was Hamilton. Who will tell your story? If Hamilton's wife wasn't so bombed, who knows what we would know about Alexander Hamilton, right?

Like, you know, that's the thing that's crazy about this. That's beautiful. B. Where can folks support you, support you, you support black trans folks more broadly? And what should folks do to support the Netflix staffers who are continuing to speak out? So first and foremost, for the Netflix staffers, continue to spread the message about what's really been asked for. So if you look at Twitter, there's a trans at Netflix Twitter handle, and so the ask are there, continue to share those asks so that people can understand what the real ask is here. Two, watch trans things. So

So disclosure documentary is great. Also watch Pose because Pose really, so as a young black trans person coming up, Pose that actually definitely represents a lot of my communities that I first met and who helped me become cool because I was a dork. So I think that's really great to support Black trans content, especially Pose too.

And then for just generally, this is just the beginning, right? So this is just the beginning. So there's a lot of organizations out there. is a great organization. Howard Brown Health in Chicago is one of the premier institutions treating trans folks and doing research on trans folks. The Transgeneral Law Center is also an amazing place to support to. They're doing really, really great work.

Glad is a great place to support because they're trying to help talk about this media representation and change that. And then for me, I'm B. Pagel's Minor everywhere. Follow me on Twitter, you know, because that's rarely where I post a lot of content that I find that I think is very interesting. They can help people understand a little bit more context as well. But first and foremost, educate yourself. If there's a curiosity that you have that you don't really know what's going on,

chances are there's a document. There's someone who's tweeting about. There's someone who can help give you that context so that you can feel more comfortable. Because, like, you know, this is a long journey. Like, you know, it's definitely not something that you figure out overnight. Okay, I actually have one last curb ball question for you. He struck me as someone who likes movies, likes TV, likes music. Do you remember a time when a piece of media or a piece of content or piece of art made you feel seen and affirmed?

Pose is a great example of something for me where I cried when I first saw it. Like I could not believe that those were the like the drag shows, the ballroom. I was just like, this is literally what I first got exposed to. right so this is before I came out as trans because like I was I refused to acknowledge the fact that I was trans and I was in Memphis Tennessee I was home from college and my mother my mother of all people took me to the club to see a drag show because she was just like I feel like you need to see this I was like mama's no they know they know they know mom's no and so like I ended up going to this drag show with my mother which was really bomb and I met a bunch of like a bunch of like the drag community you know who are also trying to trans. And so some of the first things imposed, like, literally feel like they were exactly the exact same thing from when I first came out or when I first started to discover that maybe I might be different. And so that's a huge thing. And the second example, which is like really strange, and I don't know why I feel this way about this, but the second example is Purple

Rain. So I think it's because of Princess Androgyne. And so, like, I kind of felt like, you know, I felt a little scene. And also it was so complicated, right? Because he was like this brilliant artist, but he was also so, like, messed up. And, like, I just felt like I just really got it. Because, like, I just, yeah. And so I mean, I watched,

I rewatch that movie, like, probably multiple times for year. And the whole soundtrack is like, that's my soundtrack. If I'm in a mood, I got to listen to that soundtrack. B, you have no idea. If I could turn you around and show you all the different prints, iconography in my apartment, Purple Rain is my thing. Prince is my thing. And again, like, Prince was someone who made me feel seen, especially in the black community because, you know, I grew up in the South and I grew up with my uncles making gay jokes and using slurs. And everybody liked Prince. Like, it didn't, like, even though there was, like, Prince was, like, Prince was like, like, Prince was like, as my uncles would say, fruity, people fucked with Prince. And so to see the power that he had in our community was, it was intoxicating. I completely feel you on the.

friends completely feel you. And he can get anybody he wanted man, woman, trans, like anybody in the whole world, I'm pretty sure Prince could walk into a room and just look at you, you'd be like, all right, okay, where are we going to go? I think that's the other part of it

is that it just completely redefined what masculinity, what femininity, what everything was. And I think that that's one of those things that he probably did more work for so many different types of people than almost any other artists. And he wasn't trying to.

Not a woman, not a man, something you'll never understand. The power of art, I mean, the power of representation, the power of art, the power of creativity, it's unmatched. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our merch store at tangoody.com

slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoadie.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Taray Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts.

For more podcasts from IHartRadio, check out the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an

a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't

resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance, and then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face. I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks, and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I, like, was just so wanting to, like, be out of that,

phase out of my skin, and I just really regret not living in the present more. You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joey Dardano, and on my new podcast, Hope from a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we Riff Rant recommends some of the most legally dubious advice known to me. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know.

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