These Fukken Feelings Podcast© - Echoes of Resilience: The Sarah Gaer Chronicles - Unraveling the Threads of Trauma and Triumph |Season 3 Episode 309

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Send us a Text Message.In episode 309 of These Fukken Feelings Podcast, we have the privilege of welcoming Sarah Gaer, a luminary in the realm of mental health and a survivor of suicide loss whose life’s work has thrown a lifeline to those in the shadows of despair. Our rich and heartfelt discussion peels back the intricate layers of human emotion and resilience, shining a light of hope and understanding into the darkest corners of our shared human experience.Sarah, who comes with a robust ba...

you don't have to be positive all the time it's perfectly okay to feel sad angry annoyed frustrated scared and anxious having feelings doesn't make you a negative person it doesn't even make you weak it makes you human and we are here to talk through it all we welcome you to these fucking feelings podcast a safe space for all who needs it. Grab a drink and take a seat. The session begins now. What is up, guys? Welcome to These Fucking Feelings Podcast, season three, where we're continuing to focus on mental health. I am Micah. We got Rebecca over here virtually. She then abandoned me, and I'm going to say it until she comes back. Our special guest, Sarah. Oh my God, I forgot her name. It's Gare. Gare. Gare.

And I was like, Gare. And I was going to say Bear. Gare. Okay, got it. Sarah Gare. Am I saying it right now? Yeah. Cool. I'm glad that's the only time that we have to say your last name for a little while. So we just believe here that no one can tell you a story more than you can. So basically, introduce yourself to our audience. Sure. You know, I have a professional hat that I wear. I've worked in the mental health field since 1998. I don't like admitting that because then people try to figure out how old I am. My feelings get really hurt. Then I cry after the bit. It terrible. So, but anyway, 1998, you know, and I started off in my mind, which we, in hindsight, wasn't correct, but in my mind, you know, I just fell in love with intro to psychology class and I thought it was really

cool and I wanted to learn more and more and more. And, you know, of course now, all these years later, I realized that I was attracted to it because I had lived experience of my own and because I had been impacted by so many people in my life who had lived experience with trauma and substance use and their challenges. So that's I have the professional hat. Now I spend my time somewhat equally split between suicide prevention and trauma response work. I spend a lot of time with first responders. And more recently, I've become very involved with the construction industry. But at the end of the day, I feel like the part of me that's most important is that I am a suicide loss survivor. Also in 1998, I lost my very best friend to suicide and she was the third friend I lost in two years. And that really fundamentally changed who I was as a human being

and plays a huge role at who I am in my work. On the fun side, I am also a mom. I have two kids. One is a college student. The other one is in the United States Navy. And I ride horses. Used to ride Harleys and very recently bought myself a little sports car. So, you know, this whole little thing about not wanting people to, you know, to guess your age. You kind of gave that all away. So your kids ain't at home, which means older. So you originally from the 1900s, for real. I'm originally from the 1900s, for real?

Definitely from the 1900s, yes. Okay, I just said something. So you say you lost three people. Were they all to suicide or was it just one? Yeah, I lost three friends to suicide in about a two and a half year period. Two of them were actually very close to each other, meaning in their lives, they were close friends. So that's known as a cluster of suicides, which is actually fairly rare, but it does happen. And there's not a lot of people out there who talk about being impacted by a cluster of suicides. Each one was entirely, the circumstances were completely different. I wrote a book about law

enforcement suicide, you know, and then the second one was another, you know, very special person to me. And he also died by suicide. And then six months after him, my best friend took her life. So now were you already in the mental health field when this happened? No, when the first person died, I was 17. And then the when both of the other two died, I was 17. And then when both of the other two died, I was 19. And I don't, I couldn't even imagine, you know, I don't think I know anybody personally. My mom tells me we have somebody in our family who like jumped off a roof, but this was like generations ago and that I don't know. So I'm not directly impacted, but I can't imagine three. And many since, unfortunately. You know, it's like when you have somebody in your life who has a substance use problem, it seems like

when you become aware of something, it just seems to happen around you more often. And so I've been impacted many, many times by suicide. And, you know, people say to me, it's so dark, it's so sad, and it's obviously it is, of course it is. But it's also, believe it or not, it's also really there's a lot of hope in the work that I do. I meet the most amazing people. Like, for example, did you know that most people who survive an attempt will never will not go on to die by suicide? So this idea that like, well, once somebody's reached that place, there's nothing anybody can do. It's not true. And, you know, there's all these suicide attempt survivors out there telling their stories now. And they're incredible. And they're

so hopeful. They're so optimistic. So believe it or not, my work is actually filled with a lot of hope. And that's good to hear because, you know, I'm just, I had this one experience and I wish that I knew you at that time where someone texted. So our podcast has a dedicated phone line for the podcast. And they were texting me and basically telling me that he was standing on a bridge and he was about to jump off. And immediately, I thought it was a joke. I don't know why, but it was just, it was so random. No one ever texts that number other than people that's trying to give me business loans. So it was the most random thing. And I didn't know how I didn't, I didn't know what to do. At first I thought it was a joke. I wasn't going to respond, but then it was like, well, what if it's real? What do I do? What do I say? And I was completely unprepared for it. So I know

we're going into this a little quickly, but what would be your advice for me on the other end of that phone receiving that text? What I mean, what I did do was try to convince the person like this is a feeling. This is what you're feeling now in this moment. You may not feel this way later, you know, so like and then also, you know, seek help. Gave the suicide hotline. I tried those things. Let's call emergency assistance. He didn't want to do all that.

So it was like, OK, we'll just talk like you can call me. He didn't want to call. He just wanted to text. And, you know, and I'm over here anxiously now, dot, dot, dot. And I'm like, all right, say something. Let me know you're still there. Like, what's going on? But what would you have recommended I do?

Lega, you're already an expert. Keep on talking because you know what? What people need the most is someone to listen to them. And look, I wish I could say, do these things and no one else will ever die by suicide again. We don't have those answers. We haven't figured out that magic solution. But what we know is that so often people desperately need someone to just listen to them, right? And exactly based on what you were just talking about, a very dear colleague of mine and I have been creating a training that is, it's actually called LISTEN. And it's an acronym, but the L stands for LISTEN. And it's the first and it's the most important directive is just listen to the person. Let them say whatever they need to say.

Hear them out. Right. And then we want you to inquire, you know, find out why this is happening. What's going on? Because sometimes as people start to talk about what's happening, right, you're using a different part of their brain. And all of a sudden they come to some realization. Have you ever asked someone a question and then halfway of it out of your mouth, the answer pops in your head? Right? So sometimes by just getting them to open up and

talk about it, they're starting to see things a little bit more clearly, right? And then just support them, right? And it sounds like that's what you did. And then the end, I'm not giving it all away, but the encourage is encourage them to stay alive and to, you know, to think about getting help. And then the end is notice your reactions. Right. You're scared. Somebody's life might be on the line. You're really, really scared. It's sometimes when we're scared, we actually do things that aren't helpful. My problem is I have a weird sense of humor and that sometimes my humor can be dark and I just don't know when I should joke about things. I guess that filter with me is off. And if this person, like if I see on the news tomorrow, this person, you know,

is like, what the heck? But he is okay. And he's still okay. And we actually still communicate now. So that's pretty awesome. That's a beautiful story. It's a beautiful story that this person had a number and they called it or they texted it and a human being responded to that. Oh my God. But I'm going to tell you, it made me think about like,

I'm about to take it off the website. I'm going to take my number on all my social media. I don't know if I'm immensely prepared for this. And was it immediately that you wanted to go into like suicide prevention or did you study? No, no. I ended up in suicide. You're going to laugh. Those feelings that you had dealing with that, those text messages is what got me into suicide prevention completely by accident.

So I go through several jobs in the field. Fast forward, I get my master's degree in clinical mental health counseling, right? And I think I'm going to work with combat vets. And I think I'm ready. And I find out at the very last minute that the VA won't accept my degree. I'm like, three years, $60,000. Like, what am I going to do? So I take the first job I'm offered. It's working in an inner city mental health clinic in Springfield, Massachusetts, right? And it's not what I had dreamt of doing, but I invested all this time and money. And then all of a sudden, I find myself sitting with all of these people. I'm going to estimate maybe 50% of the people I was working with wanted to die by suicide. And I was terrified, petrified, right?

Because for me as a suicide loss survivor, that's a real raw nerve. And how am I going to let this person walk out of my door and not know they're safe? Right. So I started doing the only thing I know to do, the only thing I've ever been trained to do, which is I'm sending them to crisis. And 75% of the time they're getting sent home. And the And 75% of the time they're getting sent home. And the other 25% of the time they're getting forced into a hospitalization they don't want. Neither of these things are helping. So my first thought is I'm just going to quit. I made a huge life mistake. I should never have gotten into the mental health field. This is absolutely a disaster. And then I looked at my husband who had supported me for the three years and the $60,000 and realized there was no way I could just quit. Right, right, right. You can't get a divorce.

Yeah, I'm going to make a lot of debt. So I decided that I would get a job with the crisis team in hopes that if crisis is where I sent these people, obviously, if I worked there, they would teach me how to handle all of this. And did they teach you? Not really. Not really. I mean, better. I certainly learned a lot. I don't want to be taken wrong. But did I really learn?

No. And I say that because now that I've been in suicide prevention on a national level, I know how little I knew back then. And then, you know, as things, it was sort of just all by happenstance. But I also decided to join the trauma team there, which was the beginning of my relationship with the trauma center out by Boston. And I ended up running a crisis counseling program after we'd had tornadoes in Western Massachusetts. And I ran it under that trauma center. So I begged them to keep me. I was like, what do I

have to do? Because I thought to myself, these folks, their specialty is trauma and suicide. So if I go and I work with them just for a couple of years, I'm going to get really good and I'm really going to be able to make a difference in this world. And so I went to them and I begged, like, I'll do it. And you have to understand, this is a two hour commute from where I live. I'll do anything, whatever you guys have. And the director at the time is like, well, I do have one part-time job. And I'm like, okay. And he says, well, it's suicide prevention.

And I'm like, oh, I was not planning to hop into the den quite that much. But I was like, okay, I want to hear more. And he says, and you'd have to specialize in men. Wow. And I'm like, okay, I want to hear more. And he says, and you'd have to specialize in men. Wow. And I'm like, okay. And he goes, and you'd have to travel the entire state of Massachusetts. And all this is part of time. Oh, it gets better. Then he says, ready? And we're not going to pay you well. I really wanted to be able to make a difference. I really wanted to learn as much as I could so that nobody had to feel the pain that I felt in losing my friend so that no other beautiful young person's

lives were lost like my friend's, right? So I said, I'm going to do it for like a couple years, just a couple years, and I'm going to learn everything I can. Fast forward, I was in it for, I think, almost 10 years because the deeper I got, I started to meet people from all around the country, all around the world, the most amazing human beings. They're brilliant. They're funny. They're passionate. They're working so hard. They're courageous. And, you know, so that's why when people go, oh, oh, that's what you do. It's like I understand the reaction, but I am surrounded by the most amazing human beings on earth. It's not incredible. I hate using that word. It's kind of that all trauma is the same. Like if you're not sexually assaulted or you're not beaten as a child or you're not abandoned that you don't have trauma. And I'm pretty sure that that's something you probably learned beating so many people. Well, trauma is relative, right? Trauma is relative and we never take away what is traumatic

for any person. With that said, there certainly is a spectrum of things that people go through. Some people are very blessed and fortunate and they have a minimal amount of horrible things happen in their lives. Other people have a life that's just filled with it. So. You know, so I never minimize what one person went through. I never go, oh, you think that's bad? Well, you should hear this. Right. But I also do acknowledge that some people have notable misfortune of horrible trauma. Yeah.

I'm one of those people. And I'm like, yeah, how do you smile? And I'm like, I don't know. It's trauma. It's so funny because of drama, you know, and that was how I learned how to deal with trauma right going back to your friend were there like any clues or anything that you knew or was there something was that hard on you though that you felt like you knew and then you didn't okay I'm gonna let you talk all three of them were totally different one of the things we talk about with suicide is the tyranny of hindsight.

In most cases, not all, but in most cases, when you look back, there are going to have been warning signs and even sometimes missed opportunities. And this is why it's so important for us to teach everyone we can about what to look for and how to show up and support people they care about. For my best friend who died, she died actually on her seventh attempt. So even though I said most people who make an attempt and survive it will not go on to die by suicide, she was in the 10% of people who did go on to later die. But every time that she made an attempt, her life flashed in front of me. And several of those attempts, I didn't know if she would survive them or not. And so it was always in my mind that I might lose her. And we call that anticipatory grief.

And anticipatory grief happens in all sorts of circumstances. Like if you have a parent who has cancer, you may experience anticipatory grief. If you have a dog and you're looking at their face and just seeing that they're getting old, you might experience anticipatory grief. For me personally, anticipatory grief is actually worse than grief because with the anticipatory grief is the dread. And I'm a pull the bandaid off person. It's easier for me when, okay, now the person's gone and I have to deal with that. In some ways it's easier. So yes, it was absolutely traumatic for me on the break of losing her. And how did you pick yourself up?

Well, I'm incredibly stubborn. So part of it is my character, but part of it and the bigger part of it was I had the most phenomenal support. I had just taken a job working at a girls' residential program when my best friend died. And I called them and said, I don't think I can take this job. I don't think I can work with these kids who are struggling. And my mother, who is absolutely brilliant, she does not know it. And please don't share this with her because I don't I really don't want her head to get like really big. And then whenever she gives me advice I don't like, she's going to be like, but you said.

I know what you mean by that with people like that. And I just want to let you know one thing, Rebecca. It's OK for Sarah to be stubborn. You're not allowed. Okay. Back to you, Sarah. This was actually like the best, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given in my life. My mother said to me, Sarah, you can always quit later. She said, take the job. And if it's too much, then you can leave. And so begrudgingly, I took the job and it was, it was very hard. It was very painful. But it was the beginning of reclaiming myself. He struggles with it all the time. It happened a couple of times over the past few years

that he's been at that school district. One particular boy, they were real close, and it hits her all the time. A lot of the Blues will be like, oh, Thomas, that's not his name. I just go with the time. Out of the blue, she'll be like, oh, Thomas, that's not his name. I just go with the name. I mean, it's okay to be supportive, but sometimes I know

when I'm in my little phase and people say stuff, I'm like, are you trying to hit her, she? You know, like, I don't hit her. But yeah, that has to... It is hard. It is hard because especially when you're friends, you know, just think back, even now, you probably tell your friends more than you tell your parents or your siblings or your,

right? So when I first lost her, there was this sort of mentality in the lost survivor community that in order to be a suicide loss survivor, you had to be famed. And that was really devastating for me because she was like my chosen family. Right. And now, thankfully, the community has really embraced friends as loss survivors. But, you know, I think the world often doesn't recognize, you know, and it's true with any type of loss. Right. People move on and they just, you know. But I remember people saying to me, when are you going to get over it? And that was probably eight weeks after she had died. That's the one thing that drives me crazy about this insensitive world we live in.

We still don't have a deadline or an expiration date. Right. And then that's just something to say to someone young. I mean, you were young yourself. Like, when are you going to get over it? Or, you know, your whole life is ahead of you. And it's like, can I just sit in my morning for a moment and just now i'm able to mourn um but i know that had to have an impact on you also did that make you feel like you were

not healing quick enough or that with that oh no that made me just not talk to those people anymore i am stubborn yeah people would say when are you going to get over it and i'd say i have no idea but when i'm over is you really good You know, we say part of your mental health is your community, which is something we're talking about. You know, it's having a safe place and then having a community. You got to feel safe first, but also having a community that can back you. And if your community doesn't back you, then you're in the wrong community. Yeah. So I want to go back a little bit to before you became Deacon, I'm going to say, for amazing suicide prevention, speaker, author, thought leader, which I want to know exactly what a thought leader is. But I did watch a little bit of your story from your childhood about where you came from.

And, you know, you started at where you became part of the suicide life, you know, suicide, where that came from and, you know, you started at where you became part of the suicide life, you know, suicide, where that came from. But before that, you know, your father, your two months, but not enough. You're talking about the most recent TEDx that I did. That's about a concept. So you asked about being a thought leader. And that 10 X is actually a really important example of what it means to be a thought leader. So most of the mental health field is talking about pathology, diagnosis, mental illness, depression, bipolar,

anxiety, OCD, ADHD, right? It's everything's a label and for which almost always the solution is some sort of medication and maybe some sort of therapy. Right. And so being a thought leader for me means that I'm pushing back on that. And I'm asking people to think about other possible ways of conceptualizing human beings. And I'm using my personal story to illustrate it. So what you were really referring to is that 10x. And in that, and it took me years to tell that story because of the prejudice and discrimination within the mental health. I had to really work my way up in this field to have the, oh, what's the word? The respect of other people in this work to be able to share that story and not fear for my professional future, which is a whole other conversation. So I, many years ago now, well, several years ago, I had taken a trip to the White Mounters. And this is the story I tell in that TEDx. And I make a lot of mistakes in my life and I really do practice pretty radical acceptance, like it is what it is and whatever happens is going to happen. Because I used to be someone

who would spend days just perseverating and stressing and worrying and making myself sick over every little thing. I don't do it anymore for the most part. So my first mistake was that I trusted the internet when it called Lonesome Lake a short and sweet hike. And maybe what I should have done is really looked at the name of the website, which was a h back down the mountain, right? And I am so unbelievably tired. I actually have to pick my legs up behind the pant leg to get it into the jeep. We go back to the cabin we've rented. We just, both of us, my husband and I, we just collapse into the couch. I don't know if you've ever actually melted into the couch, but I'm going to tell you that I actually had that day.

So the second mistake I made that day was instead of respecting my body and knowing I was too tired to try to do anything, we decided to force ourselves to go out to the dinner we were looking forward to. And as I'm sitting in this restaurant and watching all these people who are like happy and toasting drinks and eating smelly, good smelling food, I'm just I'm starting to cry from the exhaustion. And I thought to myself, I've never, ever, ever. And almost as soon as I had that thought, I had another thought, which is, yes, you

have. Something about this feels familiar. And I'm sitting there like, you know, and I don't know if you've ever been so tired that like your brain is foggy. So you really have to work hard to try to think. So I'm trying to place it kind of like a familiar smell. And all of a sudden, I realized that that was the exhaustion I felt in the weeks and months after my best friend died. Right. And so I and I thought to myself, yeah, but this is different because this is like,

I know this is physical exhaustion. But when when she died, that was that was soul exhaustion. So that's where the word soul exhaustion, the term was born in my mind. It's been used in other places, but it actually means something different when you hear it in other places. And that's being a thought leader. Being a thought leader means that I'm willing to think way outside the way that almost anyone else in this work is thinking. So to your point, Rebecca, what you're asking about is, you know, the more that I thought

about this soul exhaustion, even though losing my best friend to suicide was the most blatant thing that jumped out at me, the more that I thought about this idea, I came to the realization that I think I was actually born with soul exhaustion, right? And soul exhaustion, just so you know, it's, I don't know what happens when you die. Like, I don't know about the soul in that way. When I use the word soul, what I'm referring to is the essence of who you are. And so I started to really think a lot about, you know, the world I was born into. And I was born into a situation where my parents were already split up. They were, my mother had been dealing with a very volatile husband who was in very significant legal trouble, you know, was involved with very dangerous people. And so I think even when

she was pregnant with me, her body and my body were being pumped full of stress hormones. And when I was, my father went to prison when I was four and a half, five, maybe five. And then when I was six and a half, seven, I was diagnosed with all sorts of learning disabilities, including ADHD. And as a little kid, right, like I can't fight it. I can't be like, ma'am, I can't pay attention right now because I'm really worried about my dad's never going to come home, right? Like I can't advocate for myself. I can't push back. I can't be like, yeah, you know what? Actually, it is hard to read. It's hard to read because I'm really sad, right? And I'm worried about people because I'm only little. And so the world's saying to me, you're broken. There's something wrong. You have a

disorder, right? And you need to be seen by all these doctors and there's something really wrong with you. And at seven, I'm like, oh my God, there's something really wrong with you. And at seven, I'm like, oh my God, there's something really wrong with me. And I'm getting this bombardment of messages. I'm getting it from teachers. I'm getting it from psychologists. I'm getting it from Boston Children's Hospital. I'm definitely getting it from my peers, right? Because I'm the girl whose dad's in jail, right? And by the way, this was in a time when there weren't that many kids with dads in jail. And certainly in the community I lived in, I was the only one that I knew other than my brother.

You know, how do you fight back against that, right? You can't. There's such a war going on in yourself. I mean, I don't even know that there was a war going on in myself at the time. I just was accepting it, right? And like, I'm so nothing that even my dad doesn't love me because he didn't keep himself out of trouble.

When he got out of jail, he moved out of the area. Then he moved out of the state. Then he moved out of the country, right? So like, I'm so nothing that I can't do well in school. The kids all hate me. And even my own dad doesn't love me. Well, then I'm getting diagnosed with all sorts of other things like,

oh, she has depression. Do I now? Do you think that's what that is? I feel like your story is like not, I know your story is your story. And I feel like your story is very relatable to a lot of kids and a lot of teens and even adults. I'm sitting here watching it last night and I'm like, yeah, you know, a lot of that stuff you're growing up.

And, you know, I didn't have all that stuff going on. But a lot of those emotions, a lot of those thoughts, a lot of those feelings or whatever had gone on and transpired. And then, you know, you made it through all of that stuff. And it just took, you can continue your story because it's so amazing. But I just wanted to interject. It sounds like you was just stubborn. You was going to make it to the other side. And then there is, I'm actually very stubborn.

I'm very stubborn and I'm actually very competitive. So one of my personal mottos is I take spite to motivate me. Like my mom used to say, remember I told you she's brilliant. She said, Zara, the greatest revenge is success. And I have to take that to the very core of my being. In fact, you guys want to know a little secret? I don't tell anybody else this, but I'll tell you. Sure, let's go. When I self-published my first novel, I had postcards made of it, and I sent it to people who didn't believe in me. I like you. Yeah, because she's right. And those moments when I wanted to give up, and even now I still question myself. Of course I do.

I go, oh, my God, what if soul exhaustion is a stupid idea? And what if the only reason people are telling me that it's really good is because they want to support me because they love me? I still have self-doubt sometimes. And I just say, you know what? I don't care. Because what matters is when Rebecca says that meant something to me. I can ignore 500 critics if one person says, your story just made a difference to me.

Absolutely. And it's funny because I feel like you kind of just did a whole commercial for like the existence of our podcast, because that was the reason why we came up with these fucking films. It was simply because it was it didn't have to be about conventional therapy. It didn't have to be about diagnosis. It didn't have to be about medication, which are things that I went through too. And then finally I met this really, really dope therapist who just wanted me to talk. One thing that she taught me was how to talk. And we talked for two years. And in those two years, she did not like recommend medication. You know, there were things that she did recommend and, you know, exercise and this and that.

And it was, you know, she was concerned about my health and me being healthy. But it was talking was get all these things out. And then finally she decided to dump me. Right. But the reason she quit on me is because she felt that I learned how to talk. So she felt like now I needed to talk to people who I love. Now I needed to share what I felt with people who were affected by things that I did because of how I felt. And to me, that was why it was like, we need to like give these methods to the world.

It's so many different methods out there. It's so many different ways, like you were saying, that it can help with suicide prevention, that can help with depression and anxiety. And not saying that people don't need traditional therapy and that people don't need medication because some people need some medication. I know. He has a nose ring.

So that's what he keeps picking at. It's literally, now that I'm on this side of things, it really does look like you're picking your nose, Micah. I'm just saying, okay? So leave it alone. You see what we go through, you know? carry on i'm sorry i just thought that everything that you said was kind of like the basis for why we do exist because we're bringing any kind of method to people because it's like there's so many methods you just have to find kind of what fits you well i just said

that micah because because I had the most amazing psychologist when I was a little tiny person. And I was with him until my best right around when my best friend died by suicide. I was with him for a long time. His name, he's no longer with us. His name was Dr. Anthony Wolf. And he wrote a book called I'll Be Home Before Midnight and I Won't Get Pregnant. And, you know, another one called Get Out of My Life, But First Will You Bring Me and Cheryl to the Mall? And these were all about adolescence, and they were brilliant. And he played an incredibly important role in my life and in my recovery.

And so I'm certainly not anti-therapist. What I'm anti is putting people in boxes. That's it. Your story has just like put everything about mental health into a box for me right now. Okay. So follow me with for just the one moment. Stay with me. Okay. So you were a young girl who was born into a not a great situation, a kind of a broken home, essentially. And you grew up thinking you were not enough. You were just not okay, apparently, to the world. And you began feeling like that yourself, essentially.

You were seeing a therapist. Your peers didn't look at you in the brightest light. They looked down upon you. Sounds like a typical, sounds like almost typical of the life of an average young person these days. and you have the father dynamic, which you also went on about further information about your father, which you and I could relate on because I have a further story that won't fit into this topic so much right now. We probably won't have time for it. But anyway, maybe someday you and I will talk

about forgiveness. And so you start there and then you go into how you become who you are today and you you don't let those things of your past deter you from becoming somebody you are today you take what you've learned along your way and turn it into something so profound and educational and life-al. And it's just, it's one of those stories that I feel like you can, it's like learn everything in one place. The one stop. Yeah.

I just kind of get lost in my own head, but you get what I'm saying, right? What I'm saying is that I think that you're anybody who wants to really hear a success story or a story that makes sense. They should hear they should listen to your story because I listened to a couple of your videos last night. And I just think that you have I think you have a really good story. I mean, I don't know. Thank you. I mean, I have to be honest with you.

There's so many amazing people out there in my line of work with amazing stories who are telling them. So I'm humbled. And also, I'm in really good company. There's a lot of people. But, you know, part of what I am hearing you say, even though it's not specifically what you're saying, is the power of stories and storytelling. Yes. Identically speaking, telling people your story, talking. A lot of people out there

telling their stories, it doesn't mean that you're not dope in yourself, you know, and that your story isn't pretty spectacular. And then, of course, you have to be, because now we should talk a little bit about suicide prevention

and the fact that you had to work with men doing that. Like, how did you step into that? I grew up with a very difficult man as a father. And so I can handle very difficult men better than most people can. But you know what? It's really about humility. It's about going into it saying, I don't know. And this is one of the things that sort of bothers me about the world we're living in right now is everybody thinks that they know everybody else's circumstance. And you don't know. If you grew up male, you don't know what it's like to be female. If you grew up black, you don't know what it's like to be Hispanic. And if you grew up white, you don't know what it's like to be black. And people feel that they know everything. And for me, it's the exact opposite. I know I don't. And the only way that I can know things is if I learn from people who have lived through it. So I spent a lot of time talking to men, believe it or not, and saying, why do you think men are dying? Was there like a common answer?

Yeah. Well, the research common answer, you know, women attempt suicide nearly four times more often than men do. Men die more often, mostly because of lethality. But why are men experiencing suicidal crisis, right? Because it's a little counterintuitive in the sense that you would think, like, I mean, you know, have a lot of social um privilege that other groups don't have um and actually the majority of men dying are white men so you would expect that even less right um but it turns out that when we talk about how like sexism hurts men it does right that whole boys can't cry. That hurts boys. That hurts men. We started teaching boys that they're not allowed to have sadness. They're not allowed to cry. They're not, right? They have to be strong. And you know what? So if you're upset, the only way that it's okay for you

to show that is anger, right? That's how sexism has really damaged men you know and so I took the time to really hear from them you know what it means uh to to get help right and and how indoctrinated men in particular are right and so I went into it with curiosity I never shame people I never go oh well this is the right way right that's called cultural humility I never tell other groups of people what the right way is. I try to understand their way. And then I try to find out in their way what does help. For example, in Australia, they have built these, they're called men's sheds, right? They're garages. They're just called sheds, but they're garages and they're filled with tools and men can go there and work on projects. So if you need a saw but you don't have one at your house, you can go to the men's shed.

And so because we know that actually men in particular, but people, tend to talk better side by side than face to face. That's why the best conversations happen in the car. Right? So you build these men's sheds where men can come and work together. And so it really became about trying to understand, but also, and we're making progress, but not fast enough at all. In suicide prevention, I have spent a lot of time, a lot of time talking to people who have survived suicide attempts and really trying to understand like what led up and I don't doubt it I don't I don't argue with them their experience I don't

go well the research shows right um but I've heard enough of the same things over and over and over again that I'm pretty sure I I have a pretty good grasp on how it happens you think you know what it it's so I went through a lot of sexual assault when I was younger. And I remember my mom taking me to therapists, but I always remember people making it my fault. I was too feminine, or you hung around too many girls, you have a way with you, or you should try to play basketball, be more masculine. So I grew up for a long time thinking kind of like you said earlier you know it's kind of like well if this is a therapist and he professional and he telling me it's my fault then it's my fault you know and something i'm doing is wrong so it's kind of cool that there's something that you don't do and we need more people and more therapists and more

professionals out there that know how to listen, but also know when to interject and when to give, I guess, the right statement and know how to say those right statements and let people know that they can be comfortable and safe in their feelings. And that is not saying that there's things out there that's not your fault, but those things aren't your fault. Listen, if you're a victim of a crime, it's never under any circumstances your fault. I don't care what you are wearing. I don't care what you were drinking. I don't care what you said. I don't care how you walked. I don't I don't care. We live in a culture and we could talk for hours about this that loves to victim blame and shame. Loss it. And frankly, it puts people at risk for suicide.

Yeah. Social media where it's so good is also so bad. I mean, I get trolled all the time. You know, people always all my TikTok and it's like, you really cannot believe the shit you are spewing. And I'm like, but yet I'm over here at peace and you're over there taking Zoloft three times a day. You know, I wish I had learned when I was a kid, right? Because I didn't learn it until I was in my master's program that how other people three times a day. I'm going to figure out what I did wrong and then I try to fix it. And they're like, no, you realize that your client is showing you how they engage with people. And I was like, oh, and I wish I had learned that when I was seven, that my dad's behavior wasn't about me. The other kids at school weren't about me. None of it was about me.

And exactly to your point, Micah, those people on social media who act that way, that's not about you. That's about them. That's actually a big way. I always talk about it. I had talked about it in past episodes. That was one of the big ways that I learned to get through trauma was when I actually revisited it. I had a little unconventional way that I went about my healing because I did everything alone. You know, it was like I allowed myself to go dig into some holes that I shouldn't have dug by myself because I ended up being exhausted like you were talking about. But I visited situations

and it was through visiting all those situations. I started to realize that even though these things were happening to me, they weren't about I was just a vessel that anybody could have been. If it wasn't me, it might have been somebody or most likely it would have been somebody else. But these people still would have done these things. And it was something about that that comforted me a little bit because it allowed me to know that it wasn't me. I'm not the person that's making people do these things to me, you know. So that was a really, really dope lesson that I learned on my own. But I don't recommend anybody doing those things by yourself because sometimes that's not healthy. It wasn't healthy how I kind of went on my mental health journey. And I'm still kind of like you said, every day we are still on this journey.

But I never want to get to the point where I ever want to think about suicide. You know, so it's like it's important to have a community. And that's kind of what we're trying to start here wanted before we had to get off here i just wanted to touch on your book um a little bit i know we talked a little bit about the i forget the title of it but there's one called the price good night great um and then there's a series of books, Gut, Grit and the Grind that you wrote with Sally Spencer Thomas and Frank King

and then the other one with the police, I didn't write that title down that's the price the price, okay so tell us about those well, the Gut, Grit and the price okay okay okay oh yeah so tell us about those um well the guts grit and the grind actually have one sitting right here i'm super proud of this series of books like

i love all my books i really and i'm proud of all of them but this this was a really special project um basically what happened is i was working with first responders and they would tell me one-on-one these absolutely amazing stories, right? And I always would, I would be like, gosh, I wish this guy could have heard the guy I talked to yesterday. Like I wish that I could get them to tell each other these stories, right? Because they're telling me because I'm safe, because I'm a therapist also, because I'm female, right? I'm not of the first responder community, but I really wish I could get them to tell each other. So I called up one of my very best friends in the world. She's absolutely amazing. And I said, Sally, I have a great idea. Which by the way, if I ever call you and say that, run. I said, Sally, what if we could get men to share their stories and we could

publish an anthology, right? A book. So I started doing some research. I talked to a bunch of men and I was like, what would you want in a men's mental health book? Like we put out surveys, we did all this stuff. And, you know, they said, look, we want to hear from the experts like 15, 20%, but mostly we want to hear from other men who've been through hard things. Brilliant. Right. And I said, okay, well, how do we do this? Like, how do we put it together? And one of them said to me, I think like a car manual, like, you know, we all understand how to use a car manual. And I was like, oh, okay. So I got into my back then Volkswagen Beetle and I pull out the car manual and I'm walking through it. So if you go through any one of our books, you will see it is written somewhat in the format of a car manual. And it goes through all different types of situations. The red book, this is for the overhaul after a breakdown. So this is sort of when life is really, really hit very difficult times like suicide, addiction, violence, those types of things. But each book has a different series. The blue book is the first one, and that's

an overview of the whole series. But what's so powerful is we brought together a community of over 40 men, definitely from around the country, but also we have writers from Australia. And their stories are just amazing. Amazing, amazing. You the hero's journey so that it's not all. A lot of times, Micah, when people share their stories, they like to share all the doom and the gloom and the trauma and the sort of shocking pieces. And then they're like, and now I'm great. Right, right. But in the hero's journey, only like 20% of the story should be the dark. The rest of it should be how'd you get out of there. And so we helped all of these storytellers to tell their stories in the hero's journey model. And it's just breathtaking what these men have been through.

But the other piece of it is their courage to share, their courage to write these stories. I mean, we have police officers, firefighters, Olympians, like, you know, and everyday people, right? We have one guy who had been battling with substance use, really severely woke up in the hospital to find out he had killed somebody in a drunk driving accident, right? So we have, yes, we have these superhero types of people, but we also have very everyday people who became superheroes. And I think that of all the work I've done, I'm very, very proud of that project. The other one is my story about a police officer. And I did that because I kept sharing like, I don't even know how that could happen, or I don't even know. And I said, you know what, the best way to help people understand why an officer might end their life, but also what

happens to their family and what happens to the department is to tell the story. And because I didn't want to share any one story, I wrote it. So that's what that book is. And then Good Night Grace is, it was probably one of my easier projects, although it took a long time, but it was one of my easier projects. But it's kind of my heart project because Good Night Grace is based on a story of a little girl who had been removed from her parents' custody due to substance use and didn't understand why her mom didn't love her. And I had to go and have a conversation with this child and try to help her understand her mother's substance use disorder. And I realized this needs to be a book. And so with her permission, I wrote the book. I had it,

you know, I had help because I'm not a children's writer. So I had somebody kid, I call it kidify. I wrote it and then she kidified it and then did all the illustrations, which are absolutely, it's a sloth. And so I brought it over the first book that I, happy I got, I brought over to the child whose story this is. And I said, you don't ever have to tell anybody that this is about you, but I wanted you to have the first copy. And so the next day she went to school and she's like, well, there's a book about me. I think I would have done the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the power of story. You know what? But it's also, we have a choice to make every day. And I know it's not as easy as I'm going to make it sound, but this is how I looked at it and it's helped me.

I can let that thing end me. I can let it devastate me to the point where I don't want to exist anymore. I don't know if I do exist anymore. And I feel as though I'm just a shadow, right? That can happen. Or I can take that terrible thing and I can do something that matters with it. And that's the choice that I make every day. I'm going to do something that matters with this terrible thing. And honestly, I think back to your point, Rebecca, earlier, how did I get here? I think that's really been it, is I have taken all of these terrible things and you guys are doing it right now too, right? Micah, you're talking about it. You're taking all this pain and you're turning it into something that matters that

helps other people and that's how we recover book two oh you did yeah i just i just got i self-published it also but yeah i wrote a book yeah love behind the battle you guys check it out it's pretty dope it's about my journey with cancer and And I feel like I survived cancer through love. It was a lot about learning how to love even my cancer in order to get through it. So it's a pretty unique story. But I wanted to take a crack at a writing. And I don't know why that had to be the first book. But I'm already on like book number five.

Who knew he could write? I'm not surprised. Really well. She's part of my trauma. She's like, did someone write this for you? Yeah, I'm like, somebody else wrote this. Are you guys siblings? Yeah. We work together in our day job, so.

Yeah, we work together in our day job. I actually was doing podcasting, and I thought that Rebecca would be really, really good for it, and she hasn't disappointed, so it's been pretty cool. It's been pretty cool. But she is also my best friend. But we do fight a lot.

So different. I don't tell him what he wants to hear. And it's not so much that. I just really love everybody. And I'm one of those people. And I make excuses for everybody. And I have to be like, Micah, listen. You can't help everybody in the world.

I know you want to. It's great. But there comes a time when you got to take care of you. And I'm working on that. I'm working on that. But Sarah, before we go, because time is running short on us, right? Suicide a little bit, because we know there's people out there that are thinking about it. There are people out there going through horrible things and they think that is the only option they have.

What is your advice? I mean, look, there's 988, which is a wonderful resource, right? It's the suicide prevention lifeline, but it doesn't have to be a suicide crisis. You can call them and just get support. They're amazing. I love 988. You know, but the other thing is there's so many things out there that are peer support, depending on what state you're in.

But there are, if you can't find things that are in support, depending on what state you're in. But there are, if you can't find things that are in person, you can find things online. And finding other people, like you said before, Micah, finding your community, the place where people understand you and accept you is so, so, so incredibly important. And so I always recommend, you know, friend. I like the term Anamkara, which in Gaelic means a soul friend. And when I heard this woman on, really important, find your community, find, there's so many amazing humans in this world, find them, you know. And also like just Google, there's all sorts of resources. If you go onto the internet and Google, depending on where you are, if you're a lost survivor, I have to recommend the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. They hold, yes, they do the out of darkness walk. That's what everybody knows them for. They do do that. But they also hold support groups for law survivors.

And then it might be a resorable question and I might just be answering it, asking it a different way. But our podcast, our audiences are people who are like um i feel like something may be wrong when or i feel like i might have some mental health issues but you know i don't have the support or the family or you know i remember growing up always hearing that uh therapist was for white people you know like only white people do therapy. So it's what what would you say to someone who doesn't know how to take that first step in reaching their healing? Well, I think you have to do some soul searching, right? I will say the thing that's really important to know about therapy is it's all about finding the right one. Just because you go into the store and you see a

pair of sneakers that look nice doesn't mean they're going to fit you or be comfortable for you. Right. And sometimes you have to try on more than one pair of sneakers. So people have this idea that like, oh, I have a therapist's phone number. I'm going to call them. They're going to be the right one. And when it doesn't work out, they go, see, therapy's not for me. No, that therapist wasn't for you. Psychology Today has a website that's super easy because you can go in and use filters like your insurance, your location, in-person or virtual. And then you can sort of see, you know, what is this person specialized? What's their area of interest? They have pictures up, right? You can get a feeling.

It's not like the old days where you're going through the yellow pages. So I really like psychology today to help find a therapist. I'm also going to say it's not really helpful right now, but I am working on my next book, which is Soul Exhaustion and Soul Care, which is really digging into that who I am, right? Because sometimes I believe it's not about a mental health condition or illness or problem. It's that something has happened to who we are. And we have to do that work like you were talking about, Micah, of digging deep, right? And figuring that out again. Who am I? And not just, you know, I don't care what everybody else.

Who are you really? And that change from day to day. You can be different from who you were yesterday. I tell people I grow up every single day. Every day I am more mature than I was yesterday. You know, what's with the look, Rebecca? You know what? We're going to talk offline.

Don't even worry about it. This might be your last. You might get fired today. I'm not worried. But also, is there anything that you wanted to tell our audience that we didn't give you a chance to say? If you want to keep track of the Soul Exhaustion and Soul Care Workbook, please go to my website and where it says subscribe to the blog. Click on that because I really don't write blogs, but what I do send out is announcements about things like the workbook. So if you want to know when that's coming out, please click there. And also, you know, just a reminder to those of you who may be having a

really hard time, like I said earlier, what we know, and the research has shown us over and over and over again, is that if you can find your way through that hard time, just a couple of days, few days, it almost always will get better. Not good. I'm not saying it's going to get good. It's going to get perfect. I'm just saying it's going to get better than it is right now. And so what I ask people to do is just give it a little bit more time. Time is the most important thing that we have to combat any of these experiences. And what do you do with fear of better? What is your recommendation for that or just any advice?

And I say that like people, I talked to somebody yesterday online and she was just saying that her life was in a good place, but she kept dreading something going wrong. Something bad is going to happen. Like I'm doing all this work, but I know it's going to happen. I know it's going to happen. Is there any advice you can give? I'm going to say for me personally, that's also time. I felt that way for years. I felt like I was an imposter, that it had to catch up to me. There was no way I could get out of this unski. And then now I'm at 25 years and it hasn't caught up to me yet. And I realized that, you know what? Sometimes we do recover. It can happen. And life can be... I don't like the whole concept of happiness. I think it's a myth that leaves a lot of people very disappointed. Life, we're never going to have happiness., we always like to do a little bit of funny thing because I know these conversations could be hard.

So we wanted to ask about your guilty pleasure. What is something that you partake in that people would not suspect? They don't usually suspect that I love Harleys, but they definitely, I think, are a little bit surprised that I love camping. I am a camper. I have an RV. I camp every weekend. Unlike most people in my line of work who have a hard time shutting the work off. Not me, baby.

Friday, 430, computer closes, and I'm at the camper. I can't do that because I'm scared of bugs. But it sounds good. I'll go camping if I can stay at a hotel. And y'all keep a net around me and have a place. So we're going to, of course, we support everybody. So I want to order your books, right? But I want to autograph something that we require. Once you came on the podcast, you didn't know that you was going to have to autograph some books for us. And then everything along. But we have no problem paying for them.

We're not asking for nothing for free other than your signature. Because I know that you're going to become real big and I want to be able to sell it one day. I mean, and I want to be able to say that I knew you. Back when? Back when. Yeah. And I'm still going to sell it just to let you know. But.

Well, let's touch base afterwards. I might be able to order them, sign them and then send them to you. So let's touch base after the podcast. able to order them sign them and then send them to you so let's touch base after the podcast but thank you that's that's lovely oh yeah and i will send you definitely i will send you one of my books a pillow but oh yes i will send you a pillow but i want to send you one of my books yes we'll send you a pillow these are our new pillows so they're like our comfort support pillows as you see I squeeze them so much because conversation, you know, especially dealing with mental health can be heavy. So, you know, but yeah. And then it's kind of sad, but they're not this big.

This was like my little flaw method. But, you know, you just scan the QR code and you can listen to our podcast. So I love it. Well, yeah. So we're going to send you a pillow. So we need your address. But I'm also going to send you a copy of my book and maybe you'll get a chance to read it and give me some advice. Absolutely.

I wrote this book and I'm going to tell you, I thought it was 3000 pages. Do you hear me? I just think that when I got it printed, it was going to be this big and it's like a pamphlet. And I'm like, where all the words go? But Sarah, thank you so much for coming on. We're definitely going to give everybody your contact information. We're going to stay in contact. We hope to have you back on because I feel like there's a million more things that we can talk about. And we appreciate you. And thank you guys for watching. And we'll see you next week.

And Rebecca, hurry up and get home. Maybe. We'll see you next week. And Rebecca, hurry up and get home. Maybe. We'll see you next week. And with that, we're wrapping up another episode of the Fucking Feelings Podcast. Thank you all for tuning in and engaging in another intense and real discussion on understanding and navigating through our feelings.

Don't forget, we're here each Wednesday bringing you brand new episodes through our feelings. Don't forget, we're here each Wednesday bringing you brand new episodes filled with stories, advice, and perspectives to help you handle those fucking feelings. So set a reminder on your calendar, grab your headphones, and join us every week. And if you're interested in exploring more ways

to deal with life's stresses, make certain to tune in to our sister podcast. Trauma is expensive. Dive deep into discussions on managing trauma, building resilience, and fostering healing with new episodes dropping every Monday. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and comment on both podcasts on your favorite podcast platform. Remember, each comment and rating can catapult us further towards reaching those individuals who could really use our discussions. Your feedback is invaluable. Before we close, we want to remind you that discussing feelings is never a sign of weakness, but a display of courage. Stay brave, stay strong,

and keep feeling those fucking feelings. Until next week, take care and keep the conversation going.