These Fukken Feelings Podcast© - Episode 206: Interview w/ Suzanne Yatim Aslam - Author of Post Pardon Me

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

Send us a Text Message.After much rescheduling, ailments, and just life... we were finally able to chat with Suzanne Yatim Aslam. Author of Post Pardon Me - A fickle woman’s journey into postpartum depression and anxiety and how the hell she found her way out of it. (Sort of.) Suzanne is a former actor and Miss Arab USA turned writer. In her debut book, Post Pardon Me, she addresses the dark thoughts that so many mothers have but are too scared to say out loud. We dive deep into postpartum de...

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you don't have to be positive all the time it's perfectly okay to feel sad angry annoyed frustrated scared and anxious having feelings doesn't make you a negative person it doesn't even make you weak it makes you human And we are here to talk through it all. We welcome you to These Fucking Feelings Podcast. A safe space for all who needs it. Grab a drink and take a seat. The session begins now. What is up guys? Welcome to these fucking feelings podcast. I am Christian. I'm B more. And then we have. Hi, I'm Suzanne. Suzanne. And you know what I was, it was funny because I was practicing. I was like, I'm going to introduce her. And I don't know what I do to people's names. I try to pronounce it so proper I was like Suzanne Yatim is it right it's your team yeah oh it is your team okay okay so and Aslam right

and then we got so I do have your book postpartum me so she is the author of postpartum me a fickle woman spiral into postpartum depression and anxiety and how the hell she found her way out of it and we say sort of huh it's still a work in progress right well I'm still a mother so right right right and it's kind of pretty cool how you wrote your book because you try to make it into like a comedic kind of atmosphere. But I was still very concerned for you. I was like, oh, my God. So before we go any further, this actually has been like an interview in the making.

We have been trying to get together for months. We came back with season two, but, you know, one thing led to the other. Yada, yada, yada. It's life. Right. It is. It is life. Life happens. We're actually live. know one thing led to the other yada yada yada just life right it is it is life life happens

um we're actually live this is our first time going live so we're live on youtube and facebook and a whole bunch of other places okay and look i was like i probably should have told you that in advance he didn't tell me either suzanne that's okay he didn't tell me we're in this boat together yeah yeah yeah i was like oh my god my hair anyway all right well you know what it is i i end up finding this system and i realized i spent so much time editing videos and i was like you know what we're not editing no more we're gonna stay natural all right we're gonna go live it will be streamed again on Friday. We usually post all our new episodes Friday and they go on the podcast platforms. But yeah,

we're just going to be live today. Why not? Let's do it. Why not? So cool. Let's dig right into the book. Okay. So I was like, he destroyed your life. Yes. They don't know who he is. The audience doesn't know what you're talking about. Right. Her child, her son. My kid. No, he didn't.

But yeah, he did. That's what I thought. Right. You're first born, right? And you're the mother. Is the mother of two now? Yeah, two boys. Two boys.

Awesome. How old are they now? They're five and seven oh still young yeah yeah little guys a little bit and i thought uh sammy my he's my oldest he's just gonna happen he's gonna be in so much therapy one day when he finds out you know what that was my book that was one of the questions i was gonna ask because i was like um what is he gonna do when he reads it or he can read now and he grabbed my book the other day and he just opened up a section and he just started reading. And then, okay, Sam, and I sat him down and I was like, look, mama was really sick when you were born.

And I had a hard time and I just tried to explain and he was just like, okay, and then just left. I don't know if he's just too young or. But he was like, mommy was sick. Now she's better. We're good. But essentially that's what it is. It is a mental illness, correct? Yes. But I didn't know that. I didn't know that I had postpartum depression. So I just thought being a mom sucked because I had never been depressed before. And so it came at the exact same time as I became a mother. So correlation causes. And so I'm like, and I have all these feelings. So obviously it's because now I'm a mother and being a mother is

just too hard. And why do people do this? I had no way of knowing before. And then it just, just for some reason didn't occur to me. You know, you don't really think logically when you're kind of spiraling. Like, I'm having weird feelings. What can I do to be better? No. So you just you just spiral and spiral. Now, at what point did you know that something was wrong or that you wanted to seek help? Well, I actually see here's the thing. It's really foggy because if you've ever been depressed, reality is very difficult to, to, to kind of, to see. Plus there's, you know, sleep deprivation and all of that stuff that just comes with motherhood. So I actually have a really hard time when I think back, like, okay, what exactly happened and how did it happen?

I started talking to a couple of people, like some friends who were sort of in that space. And in the book, I changed it a little bit just for the sake of the story. But it was a girlfriend who's a therapist. And she's like, have you ever considered that you might be dealing with postpartum depression and i just thought i got slapped in the face i was like wait no what come on yeah but then i was like well this would make a lot of sense um but i that doesn't mean i got help right away right i was just really depressed that i was depressed you know i had an answer but now i'm like fuck fuck, seriously, really? I have to deal with this now on top of a newborn?

I was just mad. I was just really mad. So I guess let's backtrack a little bit. When you found out you were pregnant, were you excited, happy? Was that a joyous occasion? So it was an expected thing. We decided, it's the first chapter of the book.

I was trying to convince my husband. We were talking about, should we, shouldn't we? I was about the book. I was trying to convince my husband. We were talking about like, should we, shouldn't we? I was about to turn, I was going to be 30 soon. And I was like, well, do it. Like we should probably start thinking about it. I also had endometriosis and I had heard that it was very difficult to, to get pregnant. Like this might take a long time. We don't know. So we should start working on this now. And then he was trying to talk me out of it. And he's like, think of all the money we'd save. And we love to travel. And, and then, um, and then I was like, man, he's right. And I didn't really have an argument. And then I thought if we're 50 and we never had kids, we're probably going to regret it. But I don't know many people that

are 50 and then regret having those children. So for me, me it wasn't like I'm so maternal and I'm a mother who just doesn't have a baby yet and like it's in my loins I just need it it wasn't like logical tactical decision of like hey 20 years from now we're gonna wish we did this right so and then he was just like, OK, yeah, you're right. So it wasn't it didn't come from this like yearning to be a mom, you know. And then the pregnancy itself, how was that? Because I have a friend who's like the best pregnant person in the world. I mean, she loved being pregnant and, you know, she loved maternity clothes and she never complained about being uncomfortable. And it's like, are you human? I don't think she is. No, no, no.

I my pregnancy was really easy. The first trimester, like morning sickness and, you know, that stuff. Second trimester was perfectly fine. Everybody's really happy. And then third trimester, you're just uncomfortable. But it was fine. And then I gave birth naturally. No drugs, no hospital.

I was at a birth center, midwives. I was like, if my foremothers can do it, and I'm a healthy young woman, why can't I do it? So I did it. And then I walked around like the next month, and I'm like, I am such a badass. I was so impressed with myself. Oh, yeah. That is an impressive situation. I wish that mine could have been like that, but it was tragic.

Um, well, no, just like the, like with my first, um, so I was 27, I think when I had my first. And yeah, it was just like the pregnancy was fine. Pregnancy was perfect. It was just a birth that was tragic. I think that they misdiagnosed my due date. So where I'm thinking I have like another two weeks almost, I don't think I had two weeks because I woke up in the middle of the night and then I was just wet.

And I was like, oh, okay, what's going on here? So I'm like, oh man, did I, you know, did I pee on myself or something? What just happened? You know, right. And I go to the bathroom and I'm like, oh, I don't really have to pee, but I'm gonna try anyway. Then I go back to bed and I ended up getting wet again. And next thing you know, I'm like, okay, it's almost midnight. I hadn't had anything to eat because I accidentally fell asleep early. And my, um, cousin came to get

me. So we go to the, you know, hospital and all that stuff. And then they wouldn't let me, you know, leave. Then they wouldn't let me eat. Then they wouldn't let me walk. And yeah, no, no, no. It was, it was, it was tough. I think like, I couldn't go through any of the bad pregnancy stuff in the beginning because, you know, like had a job that I was standing up all the time and like I had sciatica and stuff, but you know, it was just like, whatever. I just sit down whenever i needed to and it was fine but yeah no everything was great up until the birth and it was just like that's so hard no and i was like i wanted to be one of those people that could go to the birth center and be fine and i was thinking that i had enough time but no that shit just happened and all of that went out the window yeah that's so frustrating and it's her

saying she cannot eat now you don't understand be more loves to eat so this was a real tragedy right you don't understand when she said that i was like oh no listen they went in and like okay so it was midnight on like a thursday night so i guess Friday morning no Tuesday Tuesday night going I guess Wednesday morning but then I didn't even have her they didn't even take me in for a c-section until like Thursday morning like six o'clock

in the morning so yeah I went like a whole day and they wouldn't let me eat I and then that wretched ass baby daddy of mine, his father came in there with some fucking McDonald's and I thought I was going to lose my shit.

Anyway, that was People are so mean. People are so stupid. Oh my God. And they had a bird in the tea with me with it. We didn't let anybody come to the birth center. We were like, you will see us at home. No, that's actually a good thing because that way you don't have to worry about anybody else's feelings and what they want to do and how they think things should go and all of

that stuff. Is the baby here yet? Is the baby here yet? Is the baby, that's none of their business. The baby will come in the, and then you're just thinking about that stressed out the entire time because you're like, you feel all this pressure. Yes. No. Yes. Yeah. I will say though, I had, I remember, um, when I was eight months pregnant, I went to a birthday party and for one of our friends who had, I think he was like four years old. He was turning four years old. We went to his cute little birthday party. And then, so I'm eight months pregnant. So'm pretty big and um nobody wanted to talk to me about anything other than my baby and I hated it because this was my first experience around like parents who weren't my just relatives you know it was like just other adult humans who were

and all they wanted to do was talk about kids and I'm like you people have nothing going on in your life like just can we and there was like so much happening on the stage that I was really invested in and really upset about. And, um, and I, like, I just couldn't talk about it. And I remember getting really, really sad, um, really, really sad in that moment. And then I told, uh, my husband's name is Kossum. And I was like,um we have to we have to go I don't feel well and I laid on the couch afterwards and I didn't get up for the rest of the day and I felt so heavy and yeah I was like this is my life now this is my life like I'm gonna have to drive the minivan and I'm gonna have to do the mom jeans who know that they're back in style

though so that's nice yeah right but you know and all these things that I just felt weren't me. And I'm like, well, I never have a creative thought again. Well, I never get to have stimulating conversations again. And I got really upset. And I mean, my body was physically heavy. And then later when I was writing the book is when I realized I was most likely suffering from perinatal depression, just depression during your pregnancy. But I just thought I was bummed out, but like that, that really, really stayed with me. And the analogy that I use is, do I have any Harry Potter fans in the room? Yes.

We got one. So if you're, as I already know, it's okay. I mean, what I sit down and like read the books? No. Did I watch the movies? Yes. Okay. Then you'll know if you watch the movies. I likened it to only because JK Rowling did it first, but the Dementors, if for people who don't know, they, they suck the joy out of a person and that person can like even procure a single happy thought. And. And so they don't kill you, but you're just sort of lifeless. Right. And essentially they take your soul. And so that's how I felt.

I felt like – and J.K. Rowling used it to give you a visual cue for what depression is. And that is just the best example that I could use to come up with how – I just was like – I was could use to come up with. I just was like, I was trying to conjure up happy thoughts and think of something positive and be grateful. I just couldn't do it. And for me, that is just the epitome of trying to explain depression to somebody.

Yeah. It's actually a really, really good way to explain it. You did really good at that. Well, she did it. I just, I just borrowed it. She's so smart. It's like, love her. So funny. So now you give birth and how was life for you at that time or at that point? Like shell shock, like really, truly shocked. I actually had a difficult time believing, like really believing that this was my reality. And I kept trying to wake up. And I couldn't understand why this was how, how on earth this was real. It just felt like,

even though I had been preparing for this and I knew this was going to happen, none of that matter. I was just, I just was just, just shocked and kind of in paralysis, but you can't afford the luxury of just not moving because you have a baby right because you have a baby yes and so then it's like nothing I do is for myself at this point yeah and I didn't really understand the concept of like oh self-care and if you take your happy mom as a happy baby like I didn't really understand that so I was just like a bit of a not a martyr I wasn't trying to be one but I think I was one of the things about the baby yeah I had just like a bit of a, not a martyr. I wasn't trying to be one, but I think I was one. Everything is about the baby. Yeah.

I had a hard time nursing. I still did it. And I was still exhausted from it. I was still, never once did it occur to me to like do something else, you know, to pump or to use formula. Your brain just doesn't, it doesn't want to come up with solutions. It just, it just viral, you know yeah it's like it wallows in the problem so i was just really really really shocked and they tell you this is so people always ask me like at the end of interviews they're like okay well you know what can you tell

a potential uh new mother about about how to look out for the signs and essentially it's like okay you're gonna feel really weird and be more you understand this the first two to three weeks, you're just going to have the baby blues and that's okay. And all those feelings where you are feeling heavy and you are feeling tired and you cry for no reason and your whole body aches and whatever. And, but if that stays and it's three months later and you're still feeling that way, this is not baby blues. This is something's going on you know um and i so i just didn't know so all of those feelings that you get when you first have a baby they just stayed with me and then they intensified wow and how long was it before like from the time you gave birth to the time you noticed or wanted to

admit that you had a problem about a year wow oh yeah see i had my cousin um suffers from postpartum um and it's funny because her kids are i think the the baby now is like five and she still is kind of like trapped in that postpartum phase it's like she never got over it but um she like even the baby crying i remember going to her house once and the baby was just crying and it was like she didn't have like the strength the energy to like comfort the baby you know and you can tell it was a little scary because you can tell like the baby was crying so much that he was hoarse oh and it's crying you know and it's like i go into you know i hear the baby crying so of course i'm ready to break the door down because, you know, it's, it's weird emergency. Right. And I go in there and I find a baby and I'm,

and I look for her and she's in the closet, but she, she grabbed like all of her clothes and like put it on top of her. Oh my God. That poor woman. Yeah. And she was like, she didn't want to continue to hear, hear it. And I go and I'm looking and the door is open. And now I'm thinking something's wrong. So I got a baby in my arm. And I'm like, if someone jumps out, what the hell am I going to do? Because the first thing I'm doing is giving up this baby. It ain't mine.

No, you ain't. Shut up. But it's like I kick the door open and then I see just legs. And I'm like, is she dead? It's legs you know and I'm like is she dead you know it's like this point I'm scared to look at her now and I'm calling her calling her calling her and it's just you know now she sees a therapist but it's like for some reason she can't and she loves her kids you know we know that it has nothing to do with not loving your kids right you know um I mean I don't know that but mean, from my experience with her, you know, I could, I know that she loves her kids, but it's just, yeah, it's pretty crazy.

So, uh, yeah. Is anything ever like that ever happened to you that you just like ignore the baby or just didn't want to be bothered? Um, no, because for me, the, the sound of them whining is a, I hate using this word cause it's overused these days but it's a trigger and i like i lose my shit and i need him to shut up okay yeah whatever i need to do to get him to stop yeah whatever what i'm gonna do because the sound of it is it's like it's painful and that's probably you know some evolutionarily evolutionary construct where moms need to hear

that get frustrated so we can go and rescue our child from some sort of who knows what yeah because however it's a bullshit guys i haven't slept and because i always sleep with one ear open just yeah no and that's that oh my god i completely relate to that because it's like you never really sleep. It's like you're kind of half sleep, but still aware so that you can hear. Yep. And if you need to, like, get up and do something quickly, it is. It's the yeah, it's the weirdest thing. And it's funny because like I use that. I used to use that at one of my at my old job because I used to work overnight and sometimes it'd just be dead.

And so I would put my head down, but I could always hear when somebody walked in and I would kind of wake up so I wouldn't seem like I was asleep. And I would answer questions accordingly. But then after the fact, I was like, did I say something when I came through here? And they were like, yeah, you told them to such. I was like, oh, damn. I didn't know I was that good. Basically, parenting taught you how to sleep at work. OK.

Mm hmm. New skills. All right. And so now we're fast forwarding to, you know, your friend is telling you it's postpartum. And so what happened at that time? Like when did you decide to move forward or look into it more? Well, before that, I will say my bigger struggle was my lack of. OK, so my parents are immigrants and I am very grateful for the life that we have here and then i also on top of that i have a really great life with my husband we live in scottsdale

with arizona which is like a resort town and we're safe and we have clean water and we have all the possibly want and all these things that i don't take for granted because I know how my family lives overseas. And I'm just not, that's something that really, really resonates with me. So I'm upset. I have this baby, this perfectly healthy, very beautiful, brilliant baby. And I'm not happy. And I've got this husband who makes enough money that I can stay home with the child. And I'm not happy. And I've got this husband who makes enough money that I can stay home with the child and I'm not happy. And I live in this safe little city and, you know, surrounded by like,

Scottsdale's a really rich town. And I like, it was like, I'm a little poor girl from St. Louis. So when I came here, I was like, Oh my God. Um, and it's just really, really nice. And, um, I wasn't happy. And then I felt like a little bitch, to be honest with you, because I was struggling with allowing myself to be okay with those emotions because I felt very guilty for feeling that way when I should be nothing but grateful, you know, my life is perfect. And here I am sitting here bitching about how hard it is to be a mom and how I don't, I used to be like, Oh, it's so hard. I can't act as much anymore. And here I am sitting here bitching about how hard it is to be a mom and how I don't, I used to be like, Oh, it's so hard. I can't act as much anymore. And this sucks. And, um, and then, then I catch myself and I'd be like, why are you whining? Why stop it? Stop it. You're just being a little bit, your life is fine. Stop complaining,

you know, because I, I just couldn't, I just couldn't reconcile those two emotions at all. Like gratitude and depression. was just really really they just constantly fought each other and the tiny little logical part of my brain was like stop it you're being a baby and I really struggled with that because that means I didn't allow my I didn't give myself permission to feel any of the things I was feeling because there's no need for it as you know what I was telling myself so I was trying to suppress them as much as possible because yeah what is there to complain about really you know so I couldn't have asked for anything more in my life thank god so the fact that I was whining was just like oh

I just thought I felt stupid I felt stupid for feeling that way when I should be nothing but grateful right um whenever I did try to talk to people about it, the really frustrating part for me is they'd be like, no, he's so healthy. Thank God he's healthy. No, enjoy it. It goes by fast. And they would immediately, I know I see you rolling your eyes. I hate that expression so much. Enjoy it. It goes by fast. But I'm drowning. And then baby, how am I supposed to be happy right now? I hate it so much. And you can't take it in. You can't. It's just a mental block.

Yeah. And you can't take in this cliched information that is very true. I did enjoy it. It really does go by fast. But that's just not, you don't have the luxury of it. Yeah, that's not what I'm trying to hear right now. That's you dismissing how I'm feeling about something. Exactly. You know, and that's, yeah, it's the dismissive how I'm feeling about something you know and that's yeah that it's the

dismissive part that gets me the most because it's like I am expressing to you how I feel about something and you're just telling me you know oh but you know no I'm not trying to hear that right yeah yeah and that sucked so then I just stopped talking about it because why, why, what's the point? You know? And I even, even with other moms, I tried and their, their postpartum was really interesting because if any women were suffering from any of it that I was able to talk to theirs was like, Oh, I don't do enough. And now I have to go back to work and I feel really terrible. And I don't want to leave my kid and all this stuff. And mine was like, Oh, I feel like he ruined my life. And I had such an amazing life before. And I don't get that life anymore. And I don't want to be near

him. And so I got really upset at myself. Well, at first I got upset at everybody else. Cause I was like, is everybody lying to me? Right. You know, like, am I, I'm not that special. I can't imagine that I'm the only person in the world that feels this way. So somebody's lying to me. And then I would get frustrated because I just felt very, very alone. Even among other postpartum mamas, I felt really alone. And then I felt like a bad person because what kind of monster of a human being doesn't want to be near her kid and is bummed out that they even exist? So then I just didn't feel like I was a good person and that who wants to feel that way. So now do you know statistics, like how many women actually go through postpartum depression? Is it more common than it's not? I can't remember the exact number. It's, it's,

it's a pretty decent amount. It's like three out of 10 or maybe four, four out of 10 people. Yeah. But it's also anxiety too, which is a completely different beast, a completely different beast. So there's postpartum depression and there's postpartum anxiety. There are people who can, will get the anxiety. A friend of mine, I was just talking to her last week. She had the anxiety without the depression. They are two very different things. And we always combine together or are you depressed and anxious? But they really are two different things. And uh so when i wasn't experiencing bouts of depression i was oftentimes feeling experiencing bouts of anxiety and anxiety is more often where i would

feel paralysis or i'll just be like yes something's wrong and then i just couldn't do anything about it and i would just freeze and then my husband would be like what's wrong and And then I just couldn't do anything about it. And I would just freeze. And then my husband would be like, what's wrong? And I'm like, I don't know, but something's wrong. Yeah, no, it took me a while to kind of realize what was happening. Cause it was like, my chest feels full and it's kind of like, I feel like I'm a burst, but nothing's wrong. And it's kind of like, I feel like I'm a burst, but nothing's wrong. And it's kind of like, I have to fidget with something. So with me, it's kind of like, I kind of just keep kind of doing this with my hands. And then it's just like, I can't do anything. I have to go over here. Like, yeah, it's, and it took me a while to kind of realize what was happening because

and then like, there's times where it's like, why am I even mad right now? Like why, you know, it's like, what am I getting upset about? Like why am I getting all the way up here about something? And it's like, that's how my anxiety kind of goes. Mine's it's like, I have this peak of I'm either really high or really low and it's like if I have a high and I'm like great and I'm feeling wonderful and shit maybe the next like that evening or like the next morning it's like a whole 360 and it's just like wait what just happened it is yeah it took

me a while to kind of that's that's's the weird thing with depression in particular is the highs and the lows are really, really funny. Because I think if you tell people you're depressed and that person sort of creates an image in their head. I think that you see like a perpetually sad person just moving. And that's not for me how it was. It was just the example I use in the book is there was this cloud this this cloud that would just like kind of hover near me and it would slowly collect sadness let's slowly collect a little at a time a little at a time at a little time and i'd always be like kind of sad but i could still function i could still laugh and then out of the blue

the cloud would just burst and i would just get drenched in depression. Yeah. And then it's like, I have to cry. It's like so weird. Cause it's like, I feel like I got to cry because if I don't cry it out, I won't like release that energy. And then after I get like a good cry or whatever, then I'm good. Then I coast for a little while. So yeah. Yeah. And it was always really weird because it was oftentimes would be like, he's not sleeping and I would get really upset, but sometimes it would be over stuff that was wildly insignificant, but it was just, you know, just like just one little straw. That was all it took. It's just one little raindrop to make that cloud just burst. And so oftentimes it would, and that made me feel

even more stupid because i was crying over the fact that my father-in-law drank my cucumber juice and it was just the worst thing he could have done and you know and how could you what a betrayal what a betrayal off with his head yes true i still sometimes think about it it's so dumb it's so dumb but It's so dumb. No, but I understand that. And then you realize how dumb it is. And then you're like, now I'm mad at myself for even getting upset over something that stupid. Yeah. How many feelings can one person have in such a short amount of time?

Yeah. Right? You're depressed. Then something triggers you. And then you get wildly upset. And then two seconds later, you're pissed off at yourself because you're getting upset and it's very stupid and then you try to forgive that person but that just makes you like your ego explode and then

all these it's tiring it's tiring and it's all the while you're changing diapers you're not sleeping did you have a witching hour be more did you your baby yes it was oh what time was it

it was like two or three somewhere between two or three okay oh five i see i could have handled five a little bit better because i would get up around six oh no mine was 5 p.m yours was two or three in the morning yeah yeah okay so do you know what witching hour is Christian I do not okay okay so all of our children are actually werewolves and every day around a certain time when they're infants they have their own little panic attack you can can have fed them, bathed them, stimulated them, under-stimulated them. You played with them, not played with them. Like you could do everything and they will just lose their shit.

Oh, wow. And they just transform like a werewolf. It's really weird. And there's just nothing you can do. And so this is how I knew I was starting to get real bad anxiety is it always happened around like five or six. And the sun was starting, the light outside was starting to change. And I always hated, I always, I hate that time of day when it's no longer bright, but it's not nighttime either. It messes with my head because I need light.

And then after I had a baby, I realized like how much more I need light. Like I ripped off all the curtains in the house and I was trying to get as much sunlight in as possible. Cause it was like the only thing that made me happy. And, um, so he would, he would cry around the same time. It was of course the time that I hate the most of the day. Right. So my, my, he had like regulated me. So four 35 was hard to come around. I would start to get anxious before I even realized what was going on. Then suddenly he would start to cry.

My body was preparing for it. There was nothing to do. Then he just tried to comfort nurse. It was just so miserable. They're just little monsters. It was like Jacob will wake up in the middle of the night for no apparent reason and just be whatever

for like an hour and a half and I'm like what is wrong with you why how you just wake up like this I'm telling you there's things there's magical things outside of our control right controlling this child that's why they're werewolves i'm telling you that is funny hey you know it's funny because we started talking about like the evening time and it's like the moon's coming out you're right it's werewolves it's pretty funny babies and old people it's so weird it's so weird then um i also got afraid it um this is a part of my

anxiety i don't like silence um at all it's actually i looked it up when i was writing my book it's a phobia it's called setatophobia it's the fear of silence and i think it's because you for me i don't think i want to be inside my head. My thoughts were really dark and I didn't like the way I was feeling. And then there's silence and there's nothing to distract you. And it's horrific. Oh, my God. Suzanne. Oh, my God.

Yes. Christian will tell you. Christian will tell you I cannot sit in a house with nothing on. Because I love silence. So we're opposite that way. Like, I love silence. So we're opposite that way. Like, I love silence. And that's probably a bad thing. Like, this is something we need to work on, B-more.

Right. I know. I know. Like, we're driving, and it's like, I never have the radio on. So I'm never driving with a radio. Yeah, I can't get caught up in my own thoughts. Or they will spiral, and then I can't. I just, uh-uh. See, I have fun in my own head so it's like we're so happy for you right it's like i like i like being there so much so that i don't like i

just hate people sometimes it's like i don't want to be around nobody i'm i don't like humans either very much i i like the dog he's nice um the It's really weird because it music doesn't necessarily do it for me. I need the sound of people. So I'd like I have my iPad. We didn't have a TV. So I just take my iPad wherever I went. And I play like reruns of friends. Because I needed the sound of people. I needed the sound of laughter. Okay, I needed to feel like I wasn't alone. You know what I mean? Okay, music didn't, couldn't do that. Okay. It was just in that time. I mean, obviously wonderful and can be really therapeutic, but in that time, I just needed to, I just needed people who weren't my kid. Yeah. What were some of the

things that you ended up doing to get yourself out of your depression? My, my book is a cautionary tale because it's the things that I didn't do. And I want to. So this isn't like do what I did. This is a please don't do what I did. So I didn't get therapy until after my second child was born. When my anxiety increased a lot. And now I was lonely because I had two children and it was harder to leave the house. So I didn't go as many places. And it's different where like right now I enjoy being home alone and reading

my book and doing whatever and a cup of coffee, but that's not the same as having to an infant and a two-year-old to take care of and being home alone. You know, that's very different. So, um, uh, I didn't get therapy until after. So for me, I just want people, and this is the whole point of your podcast. I just want people to be comfortable saying things like I'm lonely. It's a very hard thing to say. And those words came out of my mouth. It was like, it felt gross and it felt, I felt embarrassed. And I, I, I've been working on my ego. Cause I think I do have kind of a big ego and I want to like come off a certain way. And, want to come off as like I'm tough and I don't have feelings. And but I do.

Right. You also weren't you Miss Arab USA? Miss Arab USA. Yes. I say Arab week. But yeah. Yeah. So I can see you having an ego.

Don't laugh at me. No, that's not where my ego comes from like i don't you know you don't like to be wrong right you don't want people to like correct you or tell you what to do yeah it's like um the that persona i don't even tell people about that stuff it's just it's uncomfortable i don't like to brag about it that's so funny but you could I don't like to draw extra attention to myself I understand not in that way

but you have a tiara yeah closet that's so funny I couldn't have one I wear it all the time you didn't put it on display or something? I really should, shouldn't I? Yeah.

To the grocery store? That's still an accomplishment. I would wear it everywhere. Right. I would wear it everywhere. Grocery store, to the bathroom. Like, it's never going off. So I shouldn't tell you that it's cracked in half.

I think I sat on it or somebody sat on it. And it's okay. It's okay. Just when I thought we were going to be friends. You go and you let me down like that. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'll tape it and give it to you.

It's fine. Look, you know it's Pride Month. You know how many gay people or, you know. I love that tiara. Yes. You know how people from the community would love a tiara right now. Okay. And here mine is hiding in my closet broken

broke in half i'm a disappointment i understand okay look oh well it happens so uh i did have a question though because i was thinking she's like you asked questions the whole time but um did your depression get worse with your second child no my depression subsided my anxiety flared up um I think it just became a lot harder to deal with two kids and then I didn't know how to do it and then also I was starting to feel like worse and worse about myself as a person because I was like what am I doing with my life right and is this the role that I'm in now? Like, am I just a mom and nothing else? And okay, you guys, I graduated in 2008,

right at the height of the, like when the recession happened, like everybody was afraid to leave campus. We're like, if we leave, our life is over. So, you know, like work was hard to come by and I was just kind of working random jobs after I had after I graduated. And then so when I had a baby, it like kind of just like I didn't have to think about that anymore. Right. And then I didn't have like a career to go back to, you know. OK. And so then I was like, OK, well, who who am I now?

I'm just this mom who like hasn't showered in three days. And did I brush my teeth today? I now I'm just this mom who like hasn't showered in three days and did I brush my teeth today I think I did you know and yeah yeah and like my I still had spit up on my shirt and I kept forgetting it and what's the point I'm gonna just spit up on your other other shirt so you know and then so you start to like I'm like oh my god this is my identity now and I don't like her and I miss the old her yeah and she was so cool you guys I did the old her. Yeah. And she was so cool. You guys, I did a lot of cool shit in my life. So cool.

And then like that person couldn't exist anymore. Yes. It really bummed me out. And so then I'm like, okay, well, what happens when they grow up? And then who am I going to be? Like, am I just going to be this mom? And it was like a bad word. Yeah.

So I started to get anxious, not depressed. I don't know why, but I would get anxious about like, oh my God, I'm not the person that I want to be. And who am I? And how does my husband think of me? And does he, does he think that I'm like, you know, a failure and he's wildly successful and at the top of his game. And, and then I'm just, I'm the other day we were meeting neighbors and um they were like oh and so what do you do are you are you just a mom and i was like i had no words because first of all fuck all of you who think just a mom is like right right mom that's a full-time never ending job exactly and so and so for him to say that i'm just like you don't get it you just don't get it yeah yeah and so but that's how we think and then i'm like

great now everybody's gonna think of me as just a mom that's disgusting yeah right yeah and yeah it just messes with your head and messes with your persona of like trying to figure out who you are in this world and i'm just a mom right it's like uh you about to put me back into depression i just got out of it so what kind of treatments did you go through did you go medication or just therapy um i'm not a big fan of medication i'm not knocking people who use it but it just wasn't something that i wanted to do. So therapy, therapy was good enough for me. I had like, it had been at this point over two years. So by the time I had gotten myself into therapy and thought, Oh my God, I can talk about my feelings. I was like sort of coming out of it and then just

sort of trying to reassess like where my life is like now um so my cautionary tale is like you have to talk about it now you have to let your partner in because if like if i ran into you you know at a party or something i'd be like hey how are you and i'd be like i'm good how are you and that's just the script that we all yes right yes um it is a dumb script and that's it's so stupid and so costum would be like how are you and i'm like i'm fine and i just expected motherhood to be hard so what was the point of explaining oh i'm not because yeah this was this was the role motherhood is hard you were going to suffer so why bring it up you know um the whole time he was keeping an eye on me sometimes he would work from home

because he was worried about me and or the baby, but he never told me that. So he knew something was wrong. He didn't feel like he could confront me about it because he knew my ego would flare up and I'd be like, I'm failing as a mom. I suck at everything, you know? And so he was afraid to talk to me. And anytime he said, you know, how are you? I'd be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm tired. I'm just tired. I'm just tired, you know how are you i'd be like i'm i'm fine i'm fine you know i'm tired i'm just tired i'm just tired you know and i would kind of dismiss his inquiry um and i needed him to be more pushy and i needed myself to be more open right yeah yeah it's a hard cocktail to to maneuver talk to a lot of dads because dads need to like they need to be aware of these feelings and they need to be aware that now's not the time to coddle. Gotcha. And that's a good reason why we should, you know,

people should get the book. Yeah. Give it to your husbands for father's day today. It's father's day. It'd be a late, a late good father's day. Good book, you know, gift, give it to your husband. It's pretty funny that you said about medication because I actually, for a long time, I never wanted medication either. So my family suffers from depression. It's just kind of hereditary, but I'm a lot like you and my life right now is like really good. You know, it was like, I couldn't ask for anything more. I'm blessed. Thank you, Jesus. We're good. But I started losing energy. I didn't have energy. I didn't want to do anything, you know? So for a long time, you know, it was something bothered me. I just recently moved my mom in and she was talking to me one day and she was like, how's

work? And I'm like, and she was like, are you hungry? And I'm like, eh, but I realized I didn't have the energy to talk to her. You know, I didn't have the energy to talk to her. You know, I didn't have any energy. It was like, what the hell? But it was my mom. Here I moved her away from everybody because I felt like I'd be the one to take care of her better. Right. You know, and I'm not even talking to her.

So the next day I called my doctor and I was like, something's wrong. You know, ask me all those questions that you ask everybody every time you go to a doctor's appointment and they say do you have energy do you not feel like doing nothing it's like yes yes yes except i didn't want to hurt nobody and i didn't want to hurt myself you know other than that i checked off every box so i didn't you know i didn't think i was depressed so i went down another path where they thought it was my heart valves because like your heart valves make you feel that way and i kind of have you, tachycardia by nature, my heart just beats fast. And we kind of went down that way and they're like, no, it's not that. So they're like, you know what? Let's try adipopressants. Not to mention I was in therapy for two years and my

therapist quit on me. She felt like I didn't need it anymore, but I have abandonment issues. Is that her decision to make? Right. Well, she kind of felt like there was nowhere else we can go because as you can see, I'm just like, I don't mind talking. And she felt like, you know, I didn't need her anymore that I needed to count on family and friends. And she just ran out of tools for you. You're probably absolutely right. But I'm thinking, okay, I'm cured from therapy. My therapist said I'm good and I'm cured. It wasn't my heart. So they came around and said, let's try these antidepressants, see if they help. And I've been on them like two weeks now

and they have completely changed my life around. And I was a lot like that too, where I was like, I do not want to be on medicine. I don't want anything. You know, I, I had a, I'm a cancer survivor. So I've been through a lot of medication, you know, and I was no more medication. I don't want to do it no more. I'm never going to try antidepressants. I don't want something to control no more. I'm never going to try antidepressants. I don't want something to control my mood. And, you know, and here it is now that like I started them at first, I found every reason that I didn't want to take them. Oh, I got a headache. I didn't get headaches

until I started taking these pills. You know, oh, my stomach hurts. I didn't, you know, but then I started realizing that I'm making excuses, but now I have more energy now cleaning up my room. Now, you know, we're unpacking it. And it was like, it was a change for me. So it's kind of, it's kind of crazy that that happened, I guess. When you said no medicine, it would just remind me so much of me because it's like, you know, sometimes you have to want, I guess, be willing to take a risk and to try things when something ain't working. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I thought your, your comment on like asking all the questions about how you feel and how you were feeling these things, but you didn't want to hurt yourself or anybody else. I had the same thing when I went to the pediatrician, but like a little bit after the baby was born there, I didn't have any suicidal thoughts and I didn't have any thoughts of hurting my child. So I was fine. Right. Yes. And it's like,

there's a whole spectrum. There's a whole spectrum of things that were left out. Yeah. And I was, you know, and I was the same way with like, I'm on medication as well now. But it was kind of like, I don't want that in my chart. Like, I don't want that in my, you know, and it might just be weird. And it's just like, I didn't want that in my chart because I didn't want that to dictate how I treated and or cared for interesting that is interesting I hate that you have to even consider that that's so frustrating and you know and it is and I didn't think about it like that that you know what I mean but yeah it was like no because you know I go through things with exes and children's fathers and, you know, separated husbands that I don't want that to be something that somebody can try to use against me. Right.

You know, and yeah, it's fucked up to have to think about that. But in my life, you have to fake my situations. That's what I got to do. Right. Yeah. That's so frustrating. you have to fake being okay just yeah like why are we not allowed to just have moments where we're not okay exactly some people aren't allowed to fall apart and that's just the reality of the world we live

in you know exactly how it is and it's like oh well you're always so that and i'm like yeah but you don't know like i had to drag myself out the house like I was perfectly comfortable in my bed not being bothered having to talk to nobody and now I'm here having to entertain you bitches like right but it's even family you know you think about family members too you know I worried about your brother but I never had to worry

about you you always had it together and it was like yeah but I'm falling apart because you spent 30 something years holding it together. Exactly. And I know how to hold it together on the outside. I know how to, you know, make it, you know, not come across because, excuse me, everybody don't need to know. I'm fucking sad.

Seven days out of 10. You know what I'm saying? Right. So, yeah. I used to say to my kid, I'd be like, when he, you know, during all of this, when he was really little, I would say, I love you because I knew that that's what I was supposed to say. And then I was like, maybe if I say it long enough, I will feel it. And I, this connection that everybody seems to have, but I don't, I don't have, and I don't understand why I'm not connecting to my baby. So I'm just going to fake it till I make it. And I'm just going to say,

I love you. And then one day that word is going to be true. And it was really, really frustrating because from the outside, people would hear me. I love you, Sammy. And they'd be like, oh, she's good. Everything's cool. She loves your baby. Oh, she's a great mother. I heard her tell us she loved him twice. You know, every time I see her, she's telling him she loves him. Exactly. So everything's fine. She's a good mom. Yeah. It's so funny. So now what would you give our, our, like our listeners and our viewers, any advice or anything you would recommend for anybody? Um, just to reiterate what I said before about the difference between baby blues and postpartum depression and anxiety. So, you know, you are going to feel really weird for a few weeks

after you have a kid and that is normal and that is okay. But if it lasts longer than a few weeks, you need to, don't be a hero. You know, don't be a hero. If you, if you need help, that's okay. If it's hard, it, it, it might not just be that motherhood is hard because it is, it is hard. And so sometimes we think, oh, this is just what it is. And it's not. So I would just say, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to not be a hero. It's okay to say you're not okay. And I think people are getting better at that, you know, the last few years, I think it's becoming more and more okay, but then but for moms, you know, like, I I don't even do you even have time to say I'm not okay no because you got to get that bottle ready and get that diaper changed it's always something when it's not that it's homework and it's always some nap time and yeah

you're right I mean just witnessing you know I witnessed my mom sacrifice you know my whole life herself you know for his kids yeah now you know now she whole life herself, you know, for his kids that now, you know, now she's older and she feels guilty because she can't, she can't cook all the time. She can't clean all the time. And I'm like, okay, it's my turn to take care of you, you know, because it's like, you have paid so much for all of us, you know, that now it's okay for you to take and to be selfish and just to love yourself and do what you want to do and buy what you want to buy. Like, it's okay to do those things. Yeah. So my book is in the series of journal entries for a very specific reason,

because I did not feel comfortable talking out loud about this with people. So I allow you in the book to go inside my head so I can be unfiltered. And I can say all of the horrible things that I want to say without judgment. So it is a dark comedy. I try to, I try to, I don't want you if you're depressed to read the book and then be more depressed. So you laugh a little bit. I give you some hope at the end. I make a lot of references to Harry Potter or Friends or, you know, just things like that, that people understand and relate to. And maybe love except for you be more. And but yeah, I just wanted to be as raw and unfiltered and irreverent. It's a bit irreverent and cheeky as possible because I needed it to be real.

It's kind of up and down. One minute, one chapter is like, he's laughed and it is so cute. Oh my God. In the next chapter, I'm like, I hate this so much. Everything sucks. I feel like he's laughing at me. He knows I'm fucking this up.

Anything new we can expect from you? Anything new you got coming up? Oh, I'm only in the first draft of my new book, which has nothing to do with motherhood. Okay. It's a whole different topic. It's written as a narrative. It's not going to be a memoir. But it is about my experience growing up in the church. I was groomed to be a missionary my whole life and

then at the end I kind of had like a whole coming of age and questioning things and then I walked away from that um uh so I just thought it was kind of an interesting story that a lot of people can relate to where you kind of become older and then you start to go do i believe what i believe because i believe it or is it because this is how i grew up and i know just to question it um so i'm going through that right now where you know we kind of grew up catholic and in the church too and it's but now it's like sometimes i'm like is there even a god um because sometimes things in this world are so horrible. Yeah. And then something happened.

Like, my mom had this plant. She brought this plant from Virginia. And, like, he was just dying. Dead. All his little leaves. Just down. That's exactly how it looked. And she's like, stop giving me so much sunlight.

And I was like, you know, it's a plant it needs sunlight yeah you know so she uh she just moves it a few inches away from the window i go down the next morning he's perky but it was weird because in that moment i saw god you know in that moment i saw something higher than me because I just knew the leaves were going to turn brown and he was just going to be dead. And it's like I go to sleep and he's just chilling. And then I wake up and it's like and I was like, wow. And it's like, you know what I'm talking about? I'm put pictures on. I'm going to put pictures online for you guys, because it was just amazing to me how dead and alive it got. Anyway, that's another story. Look, that's a conversation

for your next book. She resurrected her plant. We have all your contact information listed on our website. It's been at the bottom of the screen throughout this. Go buy the book.

I bought it. I bought it. I read it. I thought it was funny. I thought it was crazy. I was like, oh my gosh, she hates her child. And this is me not being able to understand it because God made me a gay man for a reason. It ain't meant for me to have kids you know so and then he didn't make me a woman because i would have been a whore but that's another story um you can still be a whore christian i know but you know what i don't want to be a whore because that's what people say gay people are and so i want to break the chain of you know it's it's like, you know, that joke, they say, what's a pickup line in a gay bar? I don't know it. Hello. Oh, okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So it's not wrong. It is not, it is not wrong. It is so not wrong. You know, it's pride month. I've

been out celebrating pride. I rarely do things with my community. This year, I said, you know what? I'm 40 now. I'm just going to embrace. I've never been in the closet so I don't hide it, but I'm probably embracing it a lot more. I even had on all these ripped jeans and they were tight and my ass was looking

good. I wore a thong, but that's a whole other story too. I'm sitting at a bar and a guy offers to buy me a drink and we start talking and I do trucking that's my trade is in transportation and he's a truck driver and we were just talking and he didn't believe me so he starts quizzing me

and he was like well you should help me get loads and I was like yeah I see what I can do he talked about well if I fuck you right are, are you going to do it? You know, look. We're done now. Damn. Look, and you had cute teeth.

Why I had to go there? Just had to go and ruin it. Like, by being fucking presumptuous. You know what I'm saying? Right. So it is for that reason that i said i'm not gonna be the typical gay person and be a whore you know but if i was a woman i'd be a whore quick yeah okay well so the god god knew what he was doing then yes he definitely knew what he was doing but yes people

go out there get the book um you can visit the website. It is at the bottom of the screen. You follow more what Suzanne is doing. We're going to stay in contact, of course, because you just got to keep track, see how you're doing. And I want to know what's going on with this second book. I like reading. Thank you so much for being on. Thank you. I'm glad we finally. Finally. Thank you guys so much for watching. And we will see you next time. All right. Talk to you later.

Bye. Bye.