These Fukken Feelings Podcast© - Finding Joy in Uncertainties: Pat Wetzel on Overcoming Disability, Mental Health, and the Power of Shared Experiences | Season 3 Episode 339

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

   Ever wondered how shared experiences can transform lives? Join us as we embark on an emotional journey with our special guest Pat Wetzel, who shares her incredible story of overcoming disability and finding joy in the unexpected—like flying gliders. Crystal, Micah, and Jonathan Niziol set the stage by revealing their favorite reads, which include a stirring mix from Arthur C. Clarke to T-Boz’s poetry. This casual but insightful chat paves the way for a deep exploration of personal growth and the power of storytelling.Get ready to be inspired by stories from the Iconic LeadHer award show in Atlanta, where achievements were celebrated and connections were made. Pat opens up about how her passion for flying became a crucial part of her mental health recovery, illustrating how even the smallest steps can lead to monumental changes. We delve into the significance of self-care practices, from meditation to exercise, and the importance of finding what works best for you—especially when dealing with life’s big challenges like cancer.From humorous anecdotes about misunderstood New York landmarks to profound reflections on life’s unpredictability, this episode is a tapestry of heartfelt stories and practical advice. Whether you’re grappling with mental health issues or seeking ways to celebrate life’s small victories, you’ll find valuable insights here. Tune in and remember, you’re never alone in your journey—every step, no matter how small, brings you closer to inner peace and personal growth.#MentalHealthAwareness #PersonalGrowth #Storytelling #SelfCare #OvercomingAdversity #Inspiration #HealingJourney #IconicLeadHer #FlyingGliders #CancerSurvivor #InnerPeace #LifeLessons #EmotionalWellbeing #PodcastLife #TheseFukkenFeelingsPodcast

you don't have to be positive all the time it's perfectly okay to feel sad angry annoyed frustrated scared and anxious having feelings doesn't make you a negative person it doesn't even make you weak it makes you human and we are here to talk through it all we welcome you to these fucking feelings podcast a safe space for all who needs it grab a drink and take a seat. The session begins now. Guys, welcome to these fucking feelings podcast. I am Micah. Got producer Crystal over here with me. Hello. Our co-host Jonathan Neisel., everybody. You might recognize him from any other little fantasy, little porn books that you ever read. Not romance novels.

We keep it above ground here. None of that 18 plus stuff. PG, PG. He's 50 Shades of Grey, Jonathan Neisel. I knew I seen him somewhere. And our special guest for this evening is, is it Pat Wetzel? Okay. So me and Crystal was arguing and I think she was messing with me. Trying to get in my head.

So Jonathan had been doing this thing before we got started. You got something for us today, Jonathan? Sure do. So Pat, we'd like to start with something a little bit lighter, lighter hearted or something just kind of off topic. Although this is very on topic and I want to ask you, besides your own book, Bump in the Road, which we will talk about at length in a bit, what is your favorite book?

The City and the Stars by Arthur C. Clarke. It was written back in the late 40s or 50s, 1940s or 50s. And it's a science fiction novel. It's ultimately a novel of two societies. One society is very narcissistic and pleasure oriented. They're not quote unquote born. They come out of the computer at random intervals so that the composition of society changes over time. But nothing really changes because they all hold the same belief systems and fears.

And those beliefs and fears keep them entrapped in this artificial world. But the creators of this town decided every now and then to throw what they call a unique into the population mix. And that unique has never been born before and does not share the same fears and concerns that everyone else does. They're essentially a change agent. Then there is another society that is very human, more agrarian oriented, telepathic, and lives to be several hundred years, but they die. They live a human life. And this is the story of one unique, his name is Alvin, who changes the destiny of these two societies forever. Wow, that's very cool. I have to look that up. It's incredible that that was written back then and it sounds like it's still very relevant in today's society.

You know, you look back at a lot of the science fiction writers of the, say, 40s, 50s, 60s, they really were very prescient and they had ideas that are manifesting today. Yeah, that's fascinating. Crystal, what's your favorite book? Before you go, Crystal, I feel like we got scammed because she was real prepared for that answer.

I think they talked. Me too. Pat was real prepared. I was like, what? Do you got the book in front was like what do you got the book in front of you did you write nothing like that but she was like the coloring the barbie coloring book i just bought yeah my favorite book um the child called it oh that was i read that in high school that was whoa that was some real real that was crazy that was some real deep stuff that was yeah yeah micah what about you my friend i don't know no love beyond the battle we'll come back to you other than my book um no really uh i don't know i feel like I read so many great books

to say one is like because I can go back and read any book I ever read and read it again so it's hard to give one answer to that I feel like I kind of need to give an answer you know what T-Biz from TLC wrote a book of poetry

oh really? yeah and so that was it was pretty cool her poems are very very very very cool very cool and i would say mine is uh how to win friends and influence people about by dale carnegie again written in like the 1930s or 40s and just about society how to treat people better um all stuff that translates to today. So, and for the listeners, um, just a heads up, uh, coincidentally, Pat and I just did, I did her podcast like two weeks ago. So we're like best friends. We've been writing letters back and forth and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, exactly.

Um, Micah, do you want to get started? You want to, I want me to get started. I thought, did you complete your thought? Actually, I want to ask you here. you want me to get started? Did you complete your thought? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I wanted to ask you here. I just wanted to get your answer. Do you have a favorite book? 48 Laws of Power is actually my favorite book.

And she was trying to use it on me the whole weekend. She got me to put all her bed together, furniture together. I don't do no manual work, Pat. None whatsoever. And I'm over here like, no, this screw goes here. I'm like, how i know this shit she tricked me into thinking i was a man anyway well yes pat one thing that we like to do here is we actually ask our guests to introduce themselves because we feel like no one can tell

your story the way that you can so if you don't mind tell audience a little bit about yourself well uh i have a podcast bump in the, and a book by the same name, Bump in the Road, 15 Stories of Courage, Hope, and Resilience. Bump came about as a result of a bump in the road. And I've had many bumps throughout life. And I think this one that precipitated the podcast was what really got me thinking, How do people navigate life's bumps? What happened was I was traveling and I had a travel blog. I'd won awards for it. And 2020 came around and obviously travel shut down. I was in Santa Fe. So I hunkered down. I had planned to actually make this travel series into a film series that was not going to happen now. And I

had arranged a great deal of financing for it. I mean, I was ready to roll, but I didn't have the cash in my hot little hand. It was just pledged. And even if I did, I would have had to return it since we couldn't travel. And contemplating all this, I thought, how do people navigate these bumps in the road? I've been through illness. I've been through, aside from illness, cancer, divorce, a lot of flying lessons, which is a topic unto itself. And I just kind of was flat footed at that point. What do I do? with the idea that I would learn from other people's experiences. And at first I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know if I could get anybody on the show. You know, all the usual concerns that go with starting something like this. And the podcast has done wonderfully well.

From the podcast came the book. The book just won an award. So I guess we're rolling now. That's awesome. Sorry. So what award did you win? It is called the Coalition of Visionary Resources. I won a bronze award. It was interesting. I had an email and I looked at it and I thought, well, I know I entered that, but they never contacted me. So I just scrolled right past it. And today I actually went back and looked at it and I realized that I had won an award. So you just found out today,

so there's even more congratulations. So now that the book come from like interviews you had or like knowledge that you gained on the podcast is that what made you decide to write the book and to share it on the book yeah this first book um each chapter actually has a common theme i tell one of my stories from aviation just to keep it consistent and then show how that relates to one of the stories of my guests i'm working on the next book now which is is Bump in the Road, Strong Women. That's going to be organized a little bit differently. I'm not going to tell my stories. But I thought for the first book, it's a way for people to get to know who I am. Fantastic. There's something that I took from our podcast that I want to start with, because it was just, I loved it so much. I said i when we had a pre-call you mentioned it

and then we had a podcast mentioned it and i would like for you to explain to our audience sorry before you go there jonathan was just on pat's podcast we talked about a brain show i just wanted to make sure people understood that part it hasn't it hasn't been published yet but it will be soon. Yes. So can you explain to them the quitters, campers, and climbers? Yeah, that's a great story. It's not my story. It belongs to one of my guests, Eric Weinmayer. Eric is a truly remarkable person. At 16, he went blind. So you can imagine the anger, the rage, the isolation, everything that goes with an experience like that. Well, he went on to climb Everest blind, the seven summits, and he spent eight years training to raft the Colorado River Rapids, which he did.

He also started a fabulous not-for-profit called NoBarriersUSA.org, and it focuses on outward-bound type of experiences for the disability and veterans community. Fantastic organization, if you're looking to support anyone. Eric tells a story, and it's a great story. He divides the world into three groups. Now, these groups are fluid. We've all been in each of them, and we've all moved between them. The first group are quitters. That's self-evident. The vast majority of people are in the middle group. They're campers. They do not want to change the status quo. They do not want to get out of their comfort zone. And in all fairness to them, maybe they've been so beat up by life, they just won't put their head outside the foxhole anymore. Very few people are climbers. And I am personally fascinated by what it takes to go from being a camper to a climber, because we all have it within us. But what is it that some of us access

it more often than others? And I would really wish for everybody to be in that climber category more often than not, because that's where you're living a realized life. So true. I just, I love that. When I heard that, I was like, that is incredible. And like Pat said, too, we've all been in each one of those camps and we've all been there. And then, and if, if you say you haven't, then you're just lying to yourself.

And some of us go back there for sure. And then we, you know, keep going back and whatever and have to pull ourselves out of it and stuff. And that's, you know, it's just an incredible, incredible idea and incredible mindset and stuff and how you how you change from one and move on to the next. And that just that really stuck with me. And I wanted to make sure we talked about that. Yeah. And I hope in my next book, Strong Women, I'll be going a little deeper in terms of what are these traits that these remarkable people have that help them pull themselves forward like that? Because we all have them within us. It's just a matter of accessing them and also being aware of them. Yeah.

I actually just went to, so I was asked to come to an award show in Atlanta and it was called Iconic Lead Her. And until I got there, it never dawned on me. I was just like, it was lead and then, you know, H-E-R. But it didn't dawn on me like that all the recipients were women and this was all about women. I just was like, why they spell it like that? It's crazy, but I don't spell it like that. And then I walk into this room and I realize, oh, wow, like all the people who won awards or nominees or being honored that night. Honorees, I guess we should say, were all women. And of course, I acted my normal self, which means I was a complete fool.

And I realized that we're sitting in a room with two women. One was a ninth grade student who was receiving a presidential lifetime achievement award. Wow. Right. Like being pinned at this award show. And I'm like, what the hell did I walk into? And how y'all going to let me act up the way I was acting up? And I'm in the world, you know, and I'm thinking, and I'm in the room with two presidential lifetime award winners, right?

They corrected me they said nah baby you here with five I was like okay get it but it was just really inspiring to see women recognize that kind of way but to also you know kind of smack me you know into like reality like that wow this is something we need to do and I'm glad that I was a part of it I think anytime when we can relate to other people who are like us, whatever that means for any individual, it's really inspiring to see people do well. It is.

It is definitely. Yeah. And I was inspired. I was like, wow, this is great. It's so crazy. I'm texting during the episode, not supposed to be texting, you know, breaking rules. You know how, you know how you do Pat, when you're rebellious. I have authority problems too. I know you did. It's in your name. I think it's like you said, Pat, when you said it's people like us because it puts a hope or, you know, it's like, oh, if they can do it, then I can. You know, it's like it's that, uh, ability to relate to

others. And absolutely. It's that relatability that is so key. And, um, you know, we can relate on human qualities. We can relate in so many different ways. That's why I think stories are so powerful because we, not only do we relate to the individual, hopefully, but we resonate with their message. And when we resonate with their message, a story becomes experiential. It's not just a flat story. It's a story that has dimension to it, emotional dimension. And that's what really inspires us to change. Right.

And I kind of just want to put a disclaimer out there. When we say people like us, we are talking about people who are healing because I know that there's somebody that's watching right now and they're thinking, I'm like, not like any of them and no one can ever relate to what I'm going through. And you know, all they passed this and I still don't know what I'm doing.

And I'm like, yeah, we've been there, you know, and that's what we're trying to say. Yeah. And that's part of the say. So when we're saying people like this,

even though you may not feel like you're a person like us right now because you are sitting healing on the screen, you can be there. And that's what we're saying. We're saying, come on over because there is somebody out there that can relate to you. There's so many methods, so many people to talk to, so many organizations to look into. If you have a specific problem that you think no one else has, there somebody that you can talk to there's a method for you so i just want to let you know that you are still a person like us right no that is so true you know across all the podcasts what i see are really the same problems or the same issues but they're just expressed differently because everyone's life is unique definitely but we But we can all feel, say, isolation.

We can all feel shame. We can all feel joy or love. Our stories may be different, but our feelings are the same. Definitely. And then it's okay to laugh about it. It was like learning that. That was such a big lesson for me. Now I probably laugh too much.

But that's because I realize that you can like laugh at some of this stuff. Some of this stuff is so. No, horrible. And that is funny, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like a dog that's so ugly, he's cute. Trauma is the same way. Well, also, after a point, you have to laugh because you can't let it bring you down. Right. I did want to ask a question. I'm sorry, Jonathan, so I can't see if your finger going up. So you legit have to stop me because I messed up the screens.

So, you know me. Did you hear that, everybody? He messed up the screens. Yeah, he's just being nice, Crystal. Don't worry, it's still you. Look, no, it's okay because even though she's a producer, she's not the video editor. So I can still get that taken out. But, Pat, so we're talking about bumps in the road,

and I'm pretty sure that before you started to think of bumps in the road as bumps in the road, you had a lot of bumps in the road. Is there anything that you've learned now that you wish you would have known back then? You will come out the other side. When you're in the middle of it, you don't know that you can't see it. I mean, you're not sure you first of all, you may not even see a light at the end of the tunnel. If you do, you'll probably assume it's an oncoming train. So I think that just knowing that wherever you are, put one one step one foot in front of the other one step at a time you will come through to a newer wiser reality yeah absolutely i mean i know like when when we talked about in our like you said we're all

we can all share that and anybody listening and stuff like that. We can, we can all share in that. And like, like I said, you know, we've done a lot of work and a lot of healing, but we're still, you know, we're still in it. You know, we're still learning. That's why I love doing these podcasts, being on, you know, podcasts like your own Pat, just because it's a constant learning and very cathartic growing space where you're just constantly learning from others and taking away from others and and really learning how to expand your uh your tool chest and and being reminded and reiterating the fact that you are going to come out the other side so and you know every we all feel so alone when we go through these difficulties we think we are the only one in the world experiencing it and you are having this, but you're not the only one.

Everyone has difficult, almost everyone I'll say, has difficult experiences. I actually, I was out to dinner with some people and I asked this one couple what their biggest bump in the road had been. And the wife turned to me and she said, I don't think we've had any. And I thought, you must've been unconscious your entire life. I know. You got so many, you don't know they bumps. I mean, I don't think that's possible. So, sorry, Chrissy, go ahead. I want to know about the flying.

Because I won't even go in a plane. Chris was like, forget the mental health stuff. Right. Let's talk about how you was like, forget the mental health stuff. Right. Let's talk about how you do. Well, the flying is mental health stuff. Because what preceded it was a decade of disability. I went from Wall Street to being very disabled. I mean, talk about an identity crisis.

Oh, my God. I got divorced. Just throw some more on there, please. And while I was going through this divorce, I took a trip cross country to just visit people thinking in back of my head, what am I going to do? Where am I going to go? I've been out of the workforce a decade disabled. What am I going to do? And I'd rented a car in San Francisco. It was a white Mustang convertible. So I'm driving up through wine country, you know, the winding roads,

beautiful vineyards, a perfect rose along the side, wind in the hair, sun. And I get up to Calistoga, which back then was kind of a rundown town, there was an airport that intersected the main street in Calistoga. And I thought, that's kind of weird. So I went over and they had glider rides. And I went for a ride. I didn't think twice about it. But when I got back east, I heard about a group of lawyers that were flying gliders on the weekend. So I invited myself out for a three-day weekend, and I flew every single day, and I was hooked. And from there, that led, well, we have a little bit of time on this podcast. I was hooked. Sam, who taught me to fly, was a naval aviator during World War II.

So I had incredible training. And he had several gliders, one of which was a 126, which is a low performance single seat airplane. So you have to just get in it and fly it. Nobody can really teach you to do this. That's an interesting experience. But I showed up at the field one day and quote quote, unquote, my 126 was not there. It had been pledged for an air show. So I was furious. It was the best soaring day of the season. It was beautiful.

Clouds popping everywhere, which meant there was lift. Clouds are an indicator of lift. And in an airplane without an engine, you need to find sources of lift. So I'd heard some guys on the radio flying from a field about an hour south. And I decided I would go down and check this out. I get to the airport, big sign, go away, no trespassing, you are not welcome. This means you. And I pulled in. And I was stunned. What three, four runways, a gas depot, multiple hangars. And on the grid were 20 beautiful, high performance, white fiberglass sailplanes, gliders. We call them sailplanes in the racing community. Just lined up one after the other in the grid. I'd never seen anything like it. And I watched them take off. And my heart, my heart just went with those planes, watching them come up off the ground and disappear into the sky.

And I was stuck on the ground. So I was just furious. I wrote a check. I joined on the spot, whether I was welcomed or not. I joined on the spot. Here's my check. And then I found out that the plane situation there is probably worse than it was back at where I'd been flying. So that sent me on a quest to buy a plane.

And I ended up buying a plane with a pedigree. It was built for a world-renowned aviator, Carl Streedick, to fly in the world. And this plane was just incredible. She flew fast. She was fun to fly. It was just, I really didn't appreciate for many, many years until I started flying a lot of other planes, how wonderful that plane was. And the plane is known as Whiskey Oscar because Whiskey Oscar are contest letters. So if I refer to Whiskey Oscar, I'm referring to this wonderful plane that I ended up owning. So that took me from the East Coast to the West. I decided to take her cross country one year, had her in the show in Oshkosh, flew along the way and ended up moving to the Tahoe area, which is one of the best places in the world to soar. Wow. Is that like one of the planes where it's a bar and then it has like...

No, that's a hang glider. Okay. Okay. And then you, I'll send you a video actually, but these are like Whiskey Oscar was a 15 meter ship, 15 meters of wingspan, 50 feet. That's huge. And they go up to 20 some odd meters of wingspan. Yeah. She's just an exquisite, partly handcrafted plane of white fiberglass. And you actually sit in the plane. You know, you have a canopy and everything and you get towed aloft. And then you release and you have to go find sources of lift to fly. And as you get better at this, it becomes a sport where you fly cross country, you fly

speed triangles and things like that. And you can fly for altitude. Getting over 30,000 feet on a good day at Minden was pretty easy, but I think the record must be somewhere up around 50,000 or so. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. Luckily,

we have a really good editor. So I'm pretty sure he's going to show you guys some pictures of what it really is. I'll send you some videos. That'll help a lot. Yeah, definitely. I'm good. I'm not going to get into it. I really want to get into an airplane that got an engine. You know what I mean? I'd be like, look, I call my doctor. I'd be like, I'm traveling. She'd be like, okay, send in the prescription. Like, they already know. We don't even got to have much conversation. I got to fly tomorrow. OK, go pick it up. The thing that was really remarkable about this, I flew for about 15 years.

The thing that was really remarkable for me is I went from a decade of disability to a decade of these wild adventures. And I had a guest on my podcast recently and she has MS and she's very adventuresome and she talked about the two sides of this coin of having disability and yet wanting to have adventure and in listening to her story I realized that was my story too I went from having disability to wild adventure and I think having such extreme experiences

on both sides of the coin was really interesting. I actually turned to art was my, you know, I didn't necessarily have a disability, but, you know, I went through a lot of trauma and craziness with my cancer. It was a 15-year battle. It was ridiculous. But to me, it was finding the beauty in life.

And that kind of turned me to art. So now, like, I will travel just to go see some art. And I like modern art. So, like, I like going to see graffiti and, like, street artists and those kind of things. But, yeah, like, I'll travel. They'll be like, oh, they're doing a graffiti convention in Miami. I'm like, oh, there. Going through cancer, the one thing that I really came away with was joy.

I had an intense sense of joy that I found in the smallest things in life. Yeah, me, it was love. Love was kind of like the whole, it kind of brought it back to not realizing how much love I had in my life and just how much love I had to give. But that was kind of was my cancer lesson. Before we move on from the flying path, so you said you used the past tense. Does that mean you're not flying anymore? I'm not. However, I'm moving in September, and I'm moving to an area that has some pretty active soaring groups. So I've been just indulging on YouTube videos about cross-country soaring, thinking, you know, I think I would like to get into this again, but in a different way.

Owning my own plane and I mean, owning a plane is such a responsibility. The wings are heavy. They have to get locked in place by these huge bolts in the fuselage. You know, you have to be sure that everything's always set up properly. It's just, it's a lot of responsibility. And I'm thinking maybe there's some other ways I can approach it because I really, I miss being in the air. It must be very, I don't know, it must be a very interesting experience because the, well, the two of us who have been in a plane besides you, not Crystal, when you're in there, there's a lot of noise and a lot of it's going on. And you're up there soaring and you're in a glider and there's no engine.

And you're just, it's just peace. And can you tell us more about that? Like, how does that feel? You also have to relinquish control, right? Because you're being taken with the wind and obviously you have controls, but you're not able to just like, can you just tell us more about that? You have total control until you don't. That part.

And so you got to decide tree or water. No, but a plane flies because of the pressure differential on the wing, whether it's a big jet or a glider, they fly the aerodynamic principles are exactly the same. But you have total control over your direction. What you don't have control over is your altitude. And you have to make smart decisions about your altitude. So soaring is really a great metaphor for life, because it's about finding invisible sources of lift to go from point A to point B and then from point B to point C. And you may have different sources of lift. You'll learn about new sources of lift and your experience starts to pay off. But you know what? You also probably have a lot of, I ain't going to say a lot of failures,

but a lot of times where things don't work out and it's okay because you continue to move on past that, right? Well, assuming you move on past on past that yeah i've had a few that made me really stop and wonder about what i was doing so kind of like life but not everybody's well no it's a metaphor for life it's a little out there in terms of being a sport i'll give you that but i think all sports are great because we we learn so much about ourselves playing sports yeah yeah i kind of would think that it's beautiful kind of like jonathan saying like it got a beautiful thing i'll never try it so you i'll just take your word for it um but i would imagine that it's beautiful when in hollywood you know i saw bald eagle yesterday i was impressed by that i I was like, okay, eagle.

I see you. Actually, when you're flying on the East Coast, at least, you often see hawks. And they always know how to find the lift. So if you can see a hawk, you know there's going to be lift where they are. Interesting. Okay. So follow the hawk. Okay.

Yeah, but they outfly you. They leave you in the dust really quickly. Oh, so they're like. They're going to come at me. I follow the hawk. Okay. Yeah, but they outfly you. They leave you in the dust really quickly. Oh, so they're like, It's going to come at me. I know, me too. I was thinking like, do they try to eat you and stuff? Like, ooh, live bait.

No, you do not want to collide with a bird. That would be really bad news. See, there's too many factors. My brain can't think that many things at one time. Or I'm just going to overthink everything. Yeah. Plus, you got to find a place for your fruit rolls. Micah, you got to find like an extra spot where you can fly that.

I'm one of those people that have been through a lot of trauma. So I'm always going to think of the worst possible situation. However, I'm always going to survive too. So like if a plane crash, I already know I'm just going to collect everybody's wallet because I'm going to make it. You know what I'm saying? So they're not going to use their cash. I might as well get it but um but yeah that's kind of like where my healing is like i know the worst possible situation but i do know i'm gonna

make it through it kind of like with usa you know that's a really great good point because um part of it when i went into when i started flying i call it my life wish, death wish period. It wasn't that I wanted to die. It's that I desperately wanted to live. And I think when you go into a situation after having been through a lot of trauma or whatever, and I'm going to say you don't care if you live, it's not that you have a death wish, you are not suicidal, but you just let go of that fear. It's amazing what lives on the other side. Will you say that that is or that was or is your happy place of after going through all them bumps in the road? Like that's the reason why you started flying?

Flying has certainly been a happy place. Meditation is a happy place for me. My photography is a happy place talking about art. I stumbled into photography and I'm totally hooked. Okay. So I think there are lots of happy places and different places in different periods of your life too. I'm in my lazy phase. I don't want to do nothing.

I want everybody else to do it for me. And I just want to appreciate their work you can be a camper for a while it's cool he says that though but he's a very very driven person and he's always moving forward he says that but don't let him fool you because he's a climber he's always looking at the next thing and he's like

level up like how can we level it up but you know what Tui I'm really big on like seeing other people level it up right now too like i'm enjoying the work of other people you know like i have my my favorite mental health podcast that i watch and i listen to you know and people that i follow and and just cool things like that so it's like you know sometimes it's like okay i just want to watch sometimes you have to take that break. I was kind of a vegetable all weekend. I did get to the gym, but I really didn't do much of anything noteworthy.

And I needed the downtime. Today, after months of thinking about this, I was really ready. I just started writing on the next book and it just came right out of me. But I needed that downtime, that time off for everything to kind of arrange itself in my brain definitely no for sure so you mentioned photography that what kind of

photography are you doing um all sorts of things it started when um when i was traveling one day i was on a beach and it was sunrise and there were these little sanderlings you know that wander right along the surf edge. And they're so cute. They run up to the water and they run back. And I got a picture of one of them. And it had this beautiful bokeh, which are those like kind of golden orbs that you see in a photo, in the back. And looking at that picture now, it's not that great a picture.

But at the time where I was, it was a really good picture. And it got me thinking, hmm, what can I do with this? And kind of one thing led to another. I got into better camera gear. I met a Nikon ambassador and ended up going to Africa with three professional photographers. So it's been kind of an unfolding set of experiences in terms of just learning wow i feel like your message is just try shit like just just try shit you're like just try i kind of will i ain't gonna try that glad and shit nothing anything else though i'm cool with i'm trying but like i'm one of those crazy people like i won't get on the roller coaster but i'll get on it if it gets you wet you, you put some water in there.

I'm like, water. That's actually a theme for my podcast. It would just say yes. Right. Do it. You don't regret what you didn't do. Right. Right.

Is that a theme in your book as well? The regret part? No. The just say yes. Yes. Cool. Because I was wondering, I was like, you know, what's the, you know, people pick up your book right now. What would they get out of it?

What you would get out of it is a series of stories and some of my wisdom that came out of those stories. Right. That's wonderful. You've mentioned traveling and you mentioned the travel blog but you had um two-part question one how many continents have you been to and two if you had to pick one place what's the one place or uh i guess the situation that you've been in that had the most profound effect on you i know it's probably a really hard question. Somebody who's traveled a lot, but myself, but how many continents? And then that other question. Okay. I've been traveling since I was a little kid. Continents, Europe, North America,

South America. I haven't been to Asia yet. Africa. So four continents. Okay. I haven't been to Australia yet either either but it's on my list um profound experience wow you know what the most profound experience was as a kid i spent a lot of time in paris and i knew i lived about an hour or so outside of new york city but i knew paris better than new york and it was always one of my father's favorite places. My father died, oh, 30 or 35 years ago now. And I was in Paris back, I can't remember when, sometime in the 90s. First time I'd revisited it in a while.

And I did some of the really touristy things that I usually didn't do. And one of them was I went up to the top of the Eiffel Tower one night, and I just started crying. The tears just came out of me and it brought up so many wonderful memories and memories associated with my father. So that was probably, even though it's a place that was familiar, that experience was really very deep. Wow. That's wonderful. I actually in paris too for a while and never went to the affleck well you know what i had a friend she was czechoslovakian and she had emigrated to canada and i ended up meeting her in connecticut and she loved to do touristy things oh it drove me crazy

she wanted to do every touristy thing on the map and i'd be like oh god do we have to do this but you know what she was right yeah things are really fun yeah yeah i'm so you know we're i'm a new yorker new york city new yorker and we never went to the empire state building yeah never went to see the uh statue of liberty like in person like i seen on tv um but it's like legit a train ride you know like fool is right there and um and like a lot of those things um you know like if i went to the world trade center it was because i worked on the 12th floor you know but it was like it wasn't because it was the world trade center um so it is pretty funny to say that because i have people too when they got on i still have a place in the

city and when they want to come visit me that's what they want to do like oh let's do this touristy things and you know like last year i did a boat ride and we go by the statue of liberty and i'm like wow this is really dope right yeah so i kind of get that complete i find a lot of times when we live somewhere we take for granted these things we're like oh i'll get around to it i'll get around to it and like you know we don't necessarily get around to it find a lot of times when we live somewhere, we take for granted these things. We're like, oh, I'll get around to it. I'll get around to it. And like, you know, we don't necessarily get around to it. That's one of the things before I moved to Texas from Toronto, I was like, I want to do all those touristy things because, you know, I don't look back and be like, I wish I'd done this or seen that and whatever. And I just spent like two weeks before I moved and just doing those touristy things to make sure I checked them off my list.

And yeah, I think like you said, like we're just so busy with our hustle and our everyday, like, especially New York is such a grind, you know, just your go, go, go. And you're like, I'll get around to the Empire State. And same, I lived there for modeling a couple of times and I never went to Empire State, never went to Statue of Liberty, like didn't do those things, but. I haven't either. I wish. Right. I mean, I thought I did. I went to a cheesecake factory, but I guess that's all over the place.

You did something, huh? She was like, I went to the cheesecake factory, y'all. We all have. That podcast, Micah, that I hosted with personal trainer, Crystal's like, I went to this place. It's a nice little place. It's called the Cheesecake Factory. We're like, yeah, we know. They're everywhere.

She's like, oh, I thought it was – no, Crystal, they're literally everywhere. I thought it was only in New York. It's not just your factory. Like, it's everybody's Cheesecake Factory. But you went to the one in New York, right? There you go. Well, in Albany. It one in New York. Right. There you go. Well, in Albany. It's still New York.

We're upstate New York, uh, Crystal Island right now. We're upstate New York. And, uh, dad, you made me forget what I was going to say.

I thought it was cool. And going to the Cheesecake Factory, like, I had some cheesecake. Um, like, you could buy it from Walmart now. Now, Pat, let's go back to your, your podcast and your book.

What would be a core audience? What would be a good person that should listen to your podcast or, you know, what would be your enticement into getting people to listen to Bump in the Road? Anyone who has a question or is vaguely conscious in their life that's a lot of people and you know i sometimes i think i go too broad in that regard but then like with the books i can go deeper like i can do bump in the road veterans bump in the road strong women bump in road cancer for more narrow audiences but i think that there's so much wisdom across all these life experiences.

And I really enjoy the variety. And I'm always amazed at how I relate to totally different people. And it's a pretty deep connection when you're talking about trauma or difficult things, you really get it. And I think other people help us see our own story. Right. Or allow us to see it. You know, some people don't think they have a story until they see it in somebody else. And it's like, oh, wow, because that was going to be my next question. You know, one thing that we often hear and I kind of always like to get guests perspective on is the people who feel like, oh, there's somebody out there that has it worse. So now they minimize whatever it is they're going through because there's somebody out there that has it worse. So now they minimize whatever it is they're going through because there's somebody out there that has it worse.

What do you say to a person who has that mentality? Well, I'm going to add that there, but needs to heal. I think that whatever you're facing is difficult for you. And I don't think you should judge or compare because we're all very different. And I really dislike the way we're such a hierarchical society. Do you have more likes? Do you have this or that? What's better? I think that life is nonlinear. It weaves and it goes back on itself. Sometimes it goes forward, sometimes not. And I don't think that you should compare what you're going through don't think that you should compare what

you're going through. I think that you should look for the wisdom in what you're going through. My personal mantra on a daily basis is, what can I learn? Right. Actually, I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday, somebody I met at the Iconic Leaders event, and we were texting. And I'm not going to give her name because I'm going to tell the story a little bit, but she had a stroke a few weeks ago and it was crazy. She had a stroke a few weeks ago and still put together this most amazing event. And we were kind of texting yesterday and there, she wants to get together and work on some things together. And I was like, okay, you know, you need to heal yada, yada, yada. And she was like, no, I got to do it now. And I'm like, okay, but you need to take time to heal. Like, I'm not telling you what to do. But I was like, you know, well, when

I, you know, had my situation with cancer, that was the one lesson I learned. Like I needed to step back from everything and just like take my time and heal. And her immediate response was like, yeah, because a stroke ain't nothing compared to cancer. And I'm like, you is missing the whole point. Now you got me feeling bad that like, I'm over here rubbing in your face. Like I'm like, you is missing the whole point. Now you got me feeling bad that like I'm over here rubbing in your face like I had cancer. But I'm like, you're missing the point. The point is to take your time. Like, it's OK to like get better. It's OK to take care of yourself.

It's OK. Like, we need you whole. And I feel like you're trying to rush back to work. But, you know, in that situation, too, I feel like who am I to tell anybody how to heal or what they're going to do? But I am going to be the person to tell you, I told you so. So I'm just going to put that out there. I think that's a really important point. Self-care is critical, which is why you get to be a camper sometimes. You simply emotionally or energetically have to take time off. Nobody can run at 200% all the time. I always joke around.

I have two speeds, zero and 200%. And when I run out of energy, I drop like a puppy right where I am. That's it. I have no, I have to rest or, or there's just nothing else. Yeah. I also think they call it ADHD

because I'm the same way. I could do 50 things at once or nothing at all. Like I can't just do one thing. I don't know why I just can't do it. And my work day, I end the day with what I started that morning because I started it. I skipped it. I went to something else. I got like 15,000 emails open. Of course they'll be like, did you see this email? I'll be like, yeah, I'm gonna get it. I get it, but I opened it, read it. I got to think about it. Now I'm moving on to something else.

It's like, yeah, I got to learn how to organize that. You know what helped me focus was a meditation practice. It really changed my life. I can't get my brain to slow down enough. And people be like, oh, that's an excuse. And I did the whole reggae master. And I had some guy, one of our guests, gave me like a free session. And I'm like, I promise I'm trying not to think.

But it just won't shut off right now. So I'm like, you know what, mind? When you ready to learn how to meditate, let me know. Because I'm tired of trying, okay? Because I'm a failure at this. I can't meditate. Do you like music? I do.

Music can be an entree. Sound can be a wonderful entree into meditation. Right. Well, you know, I did realize that I listen to music and I listen to the most random, probably, playlists on the history of the world because we go from rock to classical to rap r&b celine dion like i listen to dion warwick okay

no she is she's wonderful but it's just most people be like what bro what that is what friends are for but um really but it did i did learn by like creating this playlist when i put it on at night it does like help me sleep like it helps on at night, it does help me sleep. It helps me fall asleep. It does help me quiet my brain because then I end up singing the songs and that doesn't enough. So you're right. Maybe it is a form of meditation. Maybe I'm kind of doing that meditation thing because I'm like, I'm singing the song and now I could drift off.

Because if I don't have music, child, I don't think about next week. I'm already playing in the 31st and it's only the third i find that you could be doing things as well that are very meditative like when i used to run i would just go out and just pound the pavement and just you know i put my headphones in i'd go out there with a bunch of stuff in my mind and i'd just run and just be in my zone where it's just one step after the next and it was very meditative like in and i'd come back and just kind of you know i physically just exhausted but then gotten a bunch of stuff off my mind and found that was good for me because like you said like i have a hard time just sitting down and being like don't think of anything like well i've got like six things to do so i'm gonna

think about those six things i was just thinking that i keep forgetting my holy water because every time you mention exercise i'm'm going to start spraying your ass. That's a bad word on this podcast. I have a deal with a friend of mine who's actually an ex-professional athlete. So, you know, I'm being held to high standards. If I don't hit my number of workouts per week that we agreed to, I owe her $10. And the same thing for her. If she doesn't hit hers, she owes me $10.

No one has paid anybody so far. No matter what, we are pushing ourselves and getting those workouts in. You know what? My hypothalamus is messed up from chemo and all the other crap that happens to me. So I really overheat too quickly working out. So I really, I overheat too quickly working out. So I really don't do it. And I'm pretty sure that I probably could find some exercise to do. But once I realized that I overheat and I get sick, I was like, oh, excuse. Nope, I can't work out. My doctor said I can't do it. Well, you know, ever since chemo, I've had, it was interesting

for me. I'm like a walking example of neuroplasticity because I went from being very left-brained and I had a terrible chemo brain. It was so bad. I broke down crying in Costco one day because I couldn't enter a four-digit pin. And I found that I couldn't do any of the linear things I used to do, the big spreadsheets. I mean, I, you know, got out of Wharton. I went to work in finance. I can do this stuff without even thinking about it. Couldn't do it anymore. And I found that what happened between just meditation helped a lot and changing my orientations, my right brain started to develop much more. And now as a result, I'm more right brain than left brain, though I can, I can do things on both sides, but my ability to do really detailed linear things is not very,

not very high. Yeah. The chemo changed that. Yeah. It made me sensitive, right? So I cried at everything now. And I'm one of those people like that never cried. I cry so much that I know when it's about to be sensitive and I start crying even before the sensitive moment happens. I'm like, he about to propose. He about to do it any minute now. And I watch a lot of TV with my mother and she'd be so mad at me. She'd be like, why the fuck are you crying? You know, she's a typical Puerto Rican mom. So I got the chunk a couple of times, but you know. And he forgets names. So I got the chunk a couple of times. But, you know. And he forgets names.

And that's the other thing with names. That was a big one with me. Not that I forget them. I just confuse them. So everybody is everybody else. Especially if your name got the same initial. Oh, you fucked up. I have a good visual memory.

I have to work harder at some other things. And I used to have such a good visual memory. I could, you know, think of a place in a book and almost go to it. And that would, you know, make me remember whatever it was I wanted to remember. Can't do that anymore. Interesting. And I could lose whatever I just had. Can you do that, Pat?

Oh, absolutely. I could just have it. Like, it was just in my hands. Like, I'm at the car. How the hell you lose the hands like i'm at the car how the hell you lose the car keys and you at the car like i had to lock my front door where the hell are the car keys it is the most ridiculous thing well no i'm taking age as my excuse i walk around the house with my cheaters on my head and i go where are my glasses and you know what else i started doing thinking too much it's gonna be my last example i was was vacuuming and there was a piece of thread on the floor and I'm vacuuming, vacuuming,

vacuuming and the thread wouldn't pick up. So I bend down and pick up the thread, examine it, and then put it back on the floor because I need to figure out how the hell to vacuum. And then I realized like, bro, you just had it in your hand. It was on the floor, you know, but I didn't understand what the hell was special about this thread. In fact, you won't pick it up. Like, this was some extra super duper special, like whoever made that thread.

God bless you. They didn't pick it up. I still had to end up picking it up. But yeah, it just stung and clang, you know, clang. Like when I fall in love, I want to fall in love like that thread. I'm not sure I follow that.

I won't be stuck. Probably a little psycho, but we can talk about me later. Pat, you talked about your, uh, your happy places before. And you mentioned a number of things and I obviously don't know you that well. We did a podcast together, but I would venture to say that podcasting is a happy place for you because well we did a podcast together but i would venture to say that podcasting is a happy place for you because you're such a natural at it like we from our initial 30 minute you know or 20 minute whatever conversation um about the podcast and

then our podcast itself it was such a a wonderful exchange um much like this one is off obviously but it's just you're so natural at it and just seems like you're just so, you know, enjoying being there so much. Is it, is it, would you consider it to be one of your happy places and one of the things you really enjoy doing? Yeah, I really, the thing is I really enjoy and I really appreciate people's stories. I, I, I, in a very heartfelt way, um, I can, I connect with them and I want to bring out their best in terms of a podcast. I want them to shine. The purpose of my podcast isn't for me to talk about me. It's to get my guests, to highlight my guests.

And that's actually why I started doing some really short podcasts. I call them side trips. They're usually five minutes or less because then I can talk about whatever I want to talk about. But for me, I don't want to interject that into my guest story. I want them to shine. Yeah, it really, really comes off. Make sure you guys check out Bump of the Road podcast, especially the Jonathan Neisel episode. I'm going to get the editor to wipe it out. Don't be promoting nobody else. No, I'm really just. I'll be I'll be in touch when it gets ready to come up. So, you know, we'll we'll discuss the best way to get that out. Now, once again, I guess going back to mental health, what when when was like your revelation? When did you know? When did you see the light that this was time to kind of start making a difference and kind of following that light per se?

Mental health is so important and it's something that we still don't discuss that much in society and we never used to discuss it. I think certainly cancer was the point where I realized I had to take care of my mental health because I went through six years of on-again, off-again treatment. I mean, in three rounds of chemo, it was brutal. So cancer, I would say, was the point where mental health really became of paramount importance. But looking back, there have been all these little blips have happened over time that also led up to that. Part of mental health for me is finding peace of mind, which is one of the reasons I meditate. I found, unbeknownst to me at the time, I wasn't thinking about mental health or peace, but flying, I found enormous peace, enormous terror, too, but enormous peace. It was just so beautiful, such a privilege.

I mean, to run down a mountain at 200 miles an hour and much greatly needed ability to release things that weren't working for me. Now, is that something that you can really do, like have control over your thoughts? At least I'm a yes and no. I mean, like everybody else, I have my bad days. But generally, one of the things that meditation has taught me, it has taught me to observe my thoughts. So when I get into a negative mindset, I can see it. And I know for a fact it's not real. It's not benefiting me. And it's not where I want to be.

So I have a conscious choice to make. And I know going down the rat hole, the negativity rat hole, will get me absolutely nowhere. And some days, you know, it's hard to say I'm not going there. I mean, everybody experiences this. But when you have conscious choice, you know, maybe there's something that breaks that thought pattern. Maybe you can go for a walk. Maybe you can listen to music. Maybe you can go work out.

Whatever it is that works for you that helps pull you back from that abyss and keep you on the sunny side of the slope. You're lucky I didn't have no holy water too, Pat. I'm just letting you know. You said it worked out. You were about to get it. But, you know, it's hard. It's like, you know, I applied for several book awards. I don't know about any of the others, and I assumed I didn't get anything,

which since it's my first book, this is not a big assumption and it wouldn't be surprising. But it's still, you know, you still feel a little hurt, like, gosh, they didn't like it at all. So when I found out that I did get an award, it was like, oh, yes. You know, it's like the old Sally Fields moment. They like me. They really like you. And congratulations again. And it's amazing it's kind of dope that you found that out today while you're with us well not that you're while you're with us but that you got to celebrate with us a little bit or we got yeah thank you that's cool and then of course we want to get a copy of the book but i want an autograph so we're gonna have to work that out we can do that okay just let me

and we'll buy it so we support we just want you know the extra you, the extra, you know, to my best friend, Michael Bravery. Thanks for all your encouraging words. I'll tell you what to put in there later. You tell me what to put. You've got it. And I'll tell you what, you don't have to buy the book, but you can subscribe to my podcast through Substack and support me there. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. And we have all of your links and hope that all of our audience does the same thing. But before we go, I did want to ask, is there anything that you want to share with our audience that Jonathan didn't give you a chance to share? Because, you know, he just kind of talks too much sometimes. I just know that. No, I would say that you have an opportunity to take charge of your life wherever you are.

And sometimes it is incredibly difficult. And all you can muster is the tiniest baby step. But that's okay. One baby step leads to another. And that's how real change occurs. It doesn't happen in a flash or overnight. And you have to be kind and patient with yourself. You have to be gentle. And you have to absolutely know that there is something better on the other side. Don't get caught up in your negative thoughts. Know, accept, trust that there is something better on the other side. Don't get caught up in your negative thoughts. Know, accept, trust that there is something better out there for you. And then one last question.

Any advice that you can give our audience, especially for people who don't feel like they don't know how they can start the healing process? You know, we people think it's easy. Oh, if you want to do it, you can do it. People really don't think that they could just do it. So what would be your advice on a starting point or a good starting point for someone who doesn't know where to start? Oh, you won't like my answer, but that's okay. I would say meditation is a really good place to start. And you can find meditation in a sport. You can find it walking. You can find it in nature. You can find it through sound. There are a million different ways to get into a meditative state, just like you do before you go to bed at night, listening to music and

starting to wind down. And the reason meditation is important, there are a few reasons. One, it gives you the ability to observe your thoughts, which is invaluable. And that leads to conscious choice. Now you can make conscious choices about where you're going. But meditation is also experiential. And let me explain what I mean by that. It's like eating chocolate, okay? You can read about chocolate all day long. There's dark chocolate, there's milk chocolate, there's white chocolate, coconut nuts, you name your combination. But reading about chocolate doesn't tell you what the experience of eating chocolate is like. That's experiential. Well, in the same way, meditation is experiential, and you can experience peace and joy and expansiveness and connectiveness. And once you experience that, it's part of you, and you take it wherever you go.

So things like road rage are a thing of the past. Maybe judgment becomes something that's much less prominent in your life. So I would say that meditation, finding a source to quieting your mind is a really important step in terms of navigating your way through just about anything. Right. And that was a really good answer. We're going to give you some, the chocolate, the chocolate. Yeah. Okay. That was dope. We give you snaps for that one. Jonathan, any last words, last minute words for the people? No, I just want to echo what Pat said. I mean, I think, as you guys know, I play hockey.

I play a lot of hockey. And that's, you know, when I'm out there on the ice, I have to be totally present and follow the puck and watch the other players. And that's a big meditative thing for me. And I get to be around my friends and stuff like that. And it gets me out of the house because otherwise. But, yes, it's a very important thing. Like Pat said, meditation looks like a lot of different things for a lot of different people.

So just try out and see what works for you. And Crystal, what you got for us? I really want to see the video. I'm sending that video over to you. Please make sure you say what you got for the people. Stop being selfish. Well, I mean, if that helped her out, you know. If we could get you flying, I'd throw your ass in a plane.

What is it called? I would put you right in a glider. You know I hear that. When I send you these links, your jaw will drop. And we're sitting here and we're talking about meditation and we're talking about all those things. And you're right. I wasn't going to like it like your answer. And I realized I might have to get a

whole lot of holy water if you keep talking about some damn hockey, Jonathan. But no, really, no, it's a really good answer. I really wish that I could meditate. Trust. I tried really hard at it. But, you know, I realized that that didn't work for me or I found a version of what it is that did work for me. And I guess that's kind of the point of all of our messages is that, you know, we all have things that we need to deal with. There are so many methods to deal with it. There's so many ways to get you out on the other side so that you can actually see the bigger picture. And that bigger picture is life, a good life, a happy life, whatever kind of life that you want. And that is the moral of the story. And just a random fact, if you want to know, I actually have to wake up the same way I go to sleep. So I go to sleep the music and I wake up the music.

And then it has to be a song that is going to get me singing, because if it's not, I'm not going to wake up. Yeah. So my brain is weird like that. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Of course, we're going to support you. We're going to follow you on all of your socials. We're going to make sure we subscribe to your podcast. And I'm actually going to listen to some episodes check you out i might be sending you some emails like what you mean by this and what you mean by this um because i always want to know the roots but it was a pleasure coming on ashley you got anything you want to say to the people

are you good all right thank you guys for watching thanks again pat and uh we will see you next week peace love and blessings. Bye.