These Fukken Feelings Podcast© - The Road to Self Liberation, Debi Adams' Battle with the Shadows of Her Past | Season 3 - Episode 312

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Send us a Text Message.In the latest must-hear installment of "These Fukken Feelings Podcast," Episode 312, we are joined by the incredibly inspiring Debi Adams. Her remarkable story of transformation from the dark depths of abuse to the empowering heights of healing is a masterclass in human resilience and self-empowerment. Tune in as Debi bravely unveils the stark realities of overcoming the scars of emotional grooming, abduction trauma, and the lingering pressures of guilt and shame so com...

you don't have to be positive all the time it's perfectly okay to feel sad angry annoyed frustrated scared and anxious having feelings doesn't make you a negative person it doesn't even make you weak it makes you human and we are here to talk through it all we welcome you to these fucking feelings podcast a safe space for all who needs it grab a drink and take a seat. The session begins now. What is up guys? Welcome to these fucking feelings podcast. I am Micah and we got Rebecca over here with me. She's virtually co-hosting from California. She got me all abandoned and alone inside of our studio. And we have our very, very special guest,

Debbie Adams. Now almost said Alan, right? And how many times has that happened to you? She was a beautiful woman. She was. She still is. And she's so alive. Probably, yes. Okay. I was like, oh, I think she's alive. And Debbie, one thing that we like to do here is we ask our guests to introduce themselves because I don't want to leave anything out in all of you as important.

So if you can, please tell our audience a little bit about you. Okay. Well, I am a part-time nanny, a job that I've held between part-time and full-time for about 30 years. I am the author of Winning Over Shame, Overcoming Sexual, Emotional, and Psychological Abuse. I am divorced, single, very happily so. Really focusing on trying to get my story out there, letting people know that if you were abused and you feel like it's your fault, it isn't. And there's a way to let go of

that blame for something that you didn't do. And that's a really toxic type of shame. It's very tricky. Yeah. And it's crazy because I think a lot of us actually deal with that shame in just so many aspects of our life, but especially in abuse. As we always tell you guys, if something doesn't feel right, most likely it's not right. Find your safe place, your safe person, talk to people about it, and make sure that you are okay before anything else. Absolutely. Cool. So now let's get a little bit into your story

if that is okay. Yeah, absolutely. I know it's a pretty horrible tale, but it's cool because it's ending up in healing for you and that's pretty amazing and you're sharing it with the world. So that's awesome as well. Thank you. But let's start from the beginning. Start from the beginning. For me, the beginning was between three and four years of age, actually. I'm sorry? You remember that time? I do. I absolutely do. My father had attempted committing suicide, or maybe he was playing at committing suicide in the case i was

between three and four and he was in the bathtub and my mother and baby sister were not home and he basically made me pull him out of the bathtub and jump up and down on his chest which if he was awake and alive he didn't need right pr but i think it was part of the grooming of me and i felt like that was my fault that he did that. And I must have done something wrong. Because at the same age, we had a set of puppies. And I went out to play with them one morning and they were dead. One of them was dead.

And my father went out and the rest of them were under the porch, also dead. They had eaten glass, according to him. And he said somebody left the door open. And, yeah, I was a four-year-old. It must have been my fault because my parents couldn't have done it, even though I didn't remember doing it. And that was the beginning of really thinking that I was something wrong. And I didn't, I shouldn't even exist. It wasn't that I did wrong things, but I was something wrong.

That sounds pretty tough for a four-year-old because I know being 24 and feeling that way. Absolutely. So then things just went downhill from there huh? Well when I was nine my parents were divorced by this point and my father took my sister and I after a visitation and just kept us. Wow. It was basically abduction. And he left me for a lot of the time in the care of five adults that I just called them. And they were sadistic and really, really bad people. Yeah, I can imagine. If they could make me hurt somehow, that made them happy.

Now, is this something that just happened to you or did they do it to your sister as well? I would like to believe that I protected my sister completely. I think the odds are I didn't, but I certainly did block a lot of what didn't happen to her. And she became my reason to be alive. Definitely. And I'm glad that it's so crazy to say I'm glad that she was there. But I'm glad you had a reason because you're here now to tell your story. Absolutely. Yeah.

Rebecca, go ahead. Take it away, Rebecca. What you got for me? Well, I know I was enjoying, well, not enjoying, but I was listening to her story. So I feel like she has more to tell. So I just wanted to keep hearing. And I don't have any good questions just yet. So.

Well, the book follows me from that beginning when I was three or four, pretty much till 2011. And so after the abduction, we ended up back with my mother, who it was a whole other story. I didn't want to be with her. I didn't trust her or feel safe with her. And so it really shows you the way the maladaptive behaviors can take place as you go through life and how the ramifications of it never stopped. When I was 21, I ended up in a psychiatric hospital. I ended up on disability also. I did three months of different hospitals. They kept readmitting me. And in the last one, I met my ex-husband. And he fit all my requirements in life, which was he wanted me.

Those were my entire requirements. And, you know, when you're set at that low, nothing good comes of it. Right, right. And so we were together for 12 years. And in the beginning, it was really wonderful. It filled my needs. I had somebody there 24 hours a day with me, and it was, like, magical.

Unfortunately, we got a computer, and he got onto AOL and got into a lot of extreme interests sexually, which lended in the end to us being in a swinging group. And so it was a group of 10 or 12 people. Well, 10 or 12 couples anyway. They weren't all there every time, but they became our social outlet. It's what we did on the parties. It's what we did on our weekends when we weren't at parties. And it was just a completely sexualized atmosphere all the time, which was very familiar to me.

Well, now was that something that you were okay with or it was something you did because of him? I insisted that I was okay with it very, very loudly so nobody could possibly contradict me. It was familiar. So it was comfortable and horrible at the same time. There were parts of it I really enjoyed. I enjoyed the flirting and the teasing and the playing games. If I could just let the sex out of it, that would have been better. Now, I know I was reading about CPTSD. That's it, right? CPTSD. Okay.

I said it wrong, huh? CPTSD. All right. So actually that was the first time I ever heard of that. Okay. So it's complex post-traumatic stress disorder, right? Often post-traumatic stress is caused by one very severe incident. With complex, it's a series of it. So it was something you couldn't get out of it. It goes on for an extended period of time. So when did you finally realize like, this isn't the life I want. This isn't the husband I want. I need to get out of all of this. That came from outside of me. He had, at the end, met a woman who he said was his soulmate, and he

loved her. She had children and a husband, had no intention of leaving them, and he didn't want me to leave him. He thought he should be able to just have both. And so, in the end, it became violent, and I bit him because I was afraid he was going to just have both. And so in the end, it became violent. And I bit him because I was afraid he was going to hurt me further. And he called the police and I refused to press charges. And he very happily pressed charges. So a judge ordered me no contact with

him until I get back to court, which ended up being six or eight weeks. And I spent the year before that trying to fix it, trying to make it work, did everything I could imagine. So there wasn't any niggle in the back of my head. And actually when I saw him when we went back to court, I didn't recognize him at first. Like, who is this balding big guy and why is he talking to me? It was just total disconnect.

I didn't recognize him at all for a minute. Wow. That's pretty interesting. Yeah. It was bizarre. I know. Very bizarre. It's like you have been through like we ain't even 10 minutes into this. I know. I mean we got really far into it. Is nannying

like a high point in your life? Is that like your... Definitely is one of those keep me stable and strong and alive kind of things. Because when little kids are depending on me, I can't go off the deep end. Right. Right. Now, how is it being a nanny?

See, like, I don't have any kids, and I don't want any. And then every time I see somebody with a child, it's like I consider it for a few minutes, and then it's like, ugh. Do you have children of your own? No, I was not

able to have children, and then I decided I didn't want to have children with him. Right. So I just chose not to have them. So then how did Nanny end coming to the picture? That I was actually doing from right after high school. Oh, okay. So I

had always taken care of kids either paid or not paid since when my father abducted me. At that point, I was watching the older siblings. He did childbirth. And so I was watching the older siblings while their mothers were giving birth. Wow. So it's always been a part of my life.

Yeah. So like, do you do like the live-in nanny thing? Only when I was younger. At 55, it's really hard to do that. I can imagine. It's just like you're raising somebody else's kid. Absolutely. And I'm very proud of the children that I

raised or helped raise. That's pretty amazing. And it's amazing that you can actually have the life that you have, but still want to spread joy. So we commend you for that. Winning over shame. When did you realize that you wanted to tell your story? Actually, before we even go there, when did you realize that you were ashamed of your life and the things that

happened to you? Was there something that was always present? Yes, it was very important to keep it hidden and that nobody know. Right. See, I too actually am a sexual abuse survivor. And it was kind of the same thing for me. Like I kept it quiet for a long time. And now I don't shut up about it because I'm like, look, I'm about to tell everybody. But I really understand that shame aspect of it. And a lot of shame for me came from the parts that part of me enjoyed it. My body reacted to it. And it wasn't that I enjoyed it, but I felt like my body reacted to it. Right. You didn't know your body would do that if it was forced. Right.

Which meant I was enjoying it. I had to if my body was reacting to it, you know, so that a lot of shame came from that as well. Yeah, I actually got to the point where I was initiating sexual things with them just to keep me safe and to keep some feeling like I was in control. I was nine. I was not in control. But I felt like if I did that, I could shortcut anything worse that they were doing. And, you know, it amused them. So it did moderate their behavior.

It's like crazy that you had to think that way as a nine-year-old. Yeah. You know, and what's even crazier is that there's still people, there's probably still nine-year-olds in this world that still have to think this way. And that's why I think your story is so important because you fought your way out of that. And that's pretty amazing.

Yeah, for sure. Thank you. In terms of when did I know I wanted to write the book? Probably in the early 2000s. I got into a really good therapist and support group in 2007, I think it was. And I learned to start developing relationships and to have the beginnings of trust with other people. And people kept telling me, you know, your story is not average or boring or, you know, what happens to you is not nothing. And I can write.

It's a skill that I have. So spent about 10 years actively preparing to write the book. And then about a year and a half writing it. Sheesh. That's a lot. A lot of your blood, sweat, and tears went into this book. Absolutely. For sure.

So, of course, we're going to list all of the links and point everybody in the direction of your book and your website and those things. So, therapy. You went into therapy. When did that happen? When did you decide that you needed therapy? I met that therapist in 2006. I had been in therapy since junior year in high school. There was a four-year gap when I wasn't. But other than that, I'd always been in therapy. Unfortunately, I didn't trust therapists and mine left every year or two because it was just putting out fires, you know, living day to day and getting through until the next week. I did twice a week for, oh, probably 15 years.

Now was therapy a choice of yours? I wanted to figure it out. I wanted to know why I felt so horrible. Right. Did you do any other sorts of therapies, for lack of a better word, other than just the therapist type of therapy like meditation, yoga, anything like that? Yeah, I went on medication in my very early 20s for bipolar disorder and anxiety and, you know, all the things that come along with that so they like give you pills for all those things yeah yeah but you say you do not claim no more right i still take medication i just don't claim myself as crazy i'm gonna say we all a little crazy if you this is true clinically crazy right but clinically

crazy yeah i get that. But I'm like, I know I don't have some psycho moments in my life. So and so was it hard to start building up your self-confidence through all this? Like how I guess when was the moment that you knew that those things were not who I am and this is who I am? And you're probably still on that journey, I'm guessing. We are all still on that journey. Yes, definitely. The end of the book actually takes place in 2011.

And it's a day that I was perfectly happy. There was no, oh, I wish I hadn't woken up. No depression. No wishing I was dead. None of that. And there wasn't really any fear, you know. Back at that point in my life, there probably should have been. But it just was a moment and a day where I felt happy.

Like I imagine most people feel happy all the time. And so I did the normal thing. I freaked out and called my therapist and said, what am I going to do? I feel happy. What am I going to do? I feel happy. What am I going to do? And she did not laugh at me. I said, Debbie, you know that feelings pass. They always pass.

And just try to enjoy it. So we had like a 15-trainment conversation about what I should do that day. And I did. And I went out and I walked my dog and smiled at people and went out to dinner with my best friend. And it was a really good day. And, you know with my best friend. And it was a really good day. And, you know, it did pass. And it was a little sad. I think it's like when people take drugs that first time you take it.

And then every time you're trying to chase that perfect first time again. In some ways, it was like that. It never has been quite as miraculous since. But I don't get tired of being happy. Right. Right. That's a very good answer. When.

Oh, my God, I lost my question. I'm sorry. Oh, no. It's not your fault. I think of like a million. I think a million miles an hour. I always have 10 questions in my head. And when you try to put 10 questions together,

they don't come out right. Nothing ever comes right out of my mouth. But when did, so I know we were talking about like the wishing that you were dead or wishing you weren't here and those kinds of things. What motivated you to still be here or to not, I don't want to say not take your own life, but to not fall into that kind of downfall? For the longest time, it was my sister primarily. And then other people that I knew, because I have seen what suicide does to people, even when they're very peripheral to the person who did it. And I raised children. So what if they found out and I would really mess with their heads. So really it was to not hurt people I cared about. Okay. And when did it become about you and not hurting you?

Probably when I gave it up. I had gotten very weird with self-injury and had been in the hospital. And I could see my therapist starting to pull back a little bit because I think she was afraid I was going to actually kill myself at that point. And it was this big shock of, you know, if she can't handle this, what am I going to do? I got to get control over this. It's not easy. Right. She's paid for this. What am I going to do? I got to get control over this. It's not easy. She's paid for this. If she can't handle it, then yeah. So it's cool. So you kind of started to find those things within yourself a little bit. Yeah.

Go ahead. I started to learn how to have relationships with other people and to realize that what people show on the outside is not who they really are. Right. Everybody puts a cover on and they look better than they are. So I've been comparing my inside to everybody else's outside my whole life. Okay. And as I knew more people in a support group, you know, you shed your mask when you walked in the door. I learned how similar I was to many people.

Right. And how normal some of what I felt was. So how difficult was that learning to trust people? And I ask because I still have an issue. I probably went through about 14 years of kind of molestation and sexual assault and those kind of things. And then I kind of went through a battle with cancer and almost died. And I had Guillain-Barre young. So I kind of went through a lot of different types of trauma. But I recognize now that I still don't like to be touched by men, you know, which is really hard because I have to go to a barbershop once a week. Right. Because this is where women have it easy. Right.

You always complaining, but you could just wear your same hairstyle and be good and not wash it. I don't know what women you know. Right. Well, you know, I think about like these hairstyle like a microwave you know like women to get braids and then like have it for three months and i was like i wish i could get braids for three months and didn't have to worry about getting a haircut once a week because i i'm always tense in a barber's chair when he's cutting my hair and and it's like okay now he's lining me up so now he's touching my face or he touches the lips and it always makes me feel like, ugh. So I feel like I'm still working on my trust issues.

Am I boring you, Rebecca, with my story? No, I'm so sorry. I'm tired only because of the time difference. So people don't know. So I don't know if we explained in another episode. Rebecca is actually in California working. So that's why she's here virtually. And then our producer is actually taking a sabbatical because she has some things going on with her kids.

Nothing negative. Her daughter plays volleyball and she's just a very supportive mom. So they leave me here to myself and by myself. And that's kind of traumatizing too but back to you yeah so when did you i know you said building relationship with people but how hard was that for you and then how did you get through that it was utterly terrifying right and i had my therapist and we spent most of every session unpacking the group sessions I'd been in two days before usually. And, you know, the shame I felt when I opened my mouth and said something and maybe somebody didn't take it the right way or the fear that people thought that I thought I was better than them.

You know, all these things that run through everybody's head were just crashing in on me. And I wanted to stop and I didn't. And then I kind of went backwards and learned how to make very casual friendships. I had a dog and we went to the dog park and we had this group of 10 people or so that would show up there every night and we'd stay for two or three hours. And, you know, you didn't really share anything deep or meaningful. You talked about your dogs. But they were nice people and they counted me as a friend. And I learned that I don't have to share with everybody.

I wanted to. Every time I met somebody, I wanted to just blurt it all out at them. I think I do it all the time. Yeah, he does. He does. I wanted to explain it all the time. Yeah, he does. He does. I wanted to explain my face I made just a few seconds ago because I realized in my mind that maybe that face was a little offensive maybe, but I didn't mean it that way. When you said that you worry about what you say can sometimes upset people or offend them or whatever, that is a constant thing for me. So I know exactly what you mean by that. I often might say something or do something that does upset or offend somebody. And I'm just going about my day.

And I don't know any better, I guess. And I don't know why I do that. I just feel like I'm just being me, saying my thing. And a lot of times when I was growing up, I'll actually give you a little bit of my background. I was born into a family with five children. I am one in the middle between two sets of twins. So I often didn't get listened to or heard or paid attention to. So I often just got talked over. Um, so maybe, maybe now I'm thinking I say what I need to say

without thinking just so that I do get heard. Because even still to this day, people talk over me. People don't listen to me. So, you know, it's... Talking about me, Debbie. She's talking about me. Yeah, I am. So I know what you mean by that. So we all have, and I don't have the kinds of traumas that the two of you have expressed. You know, there's one thing that we need to eliminate on this show. There is no size when it comes to trauma. I know, I know. I'm just saying no sexual trauma.

I've had my own sorts of traumas. Definitely. sexual trauma. I've had my own sorts of traumas, but I still struggle with, you know, knowing the right types of social correctness, I guess. I don't know, because of the way I grew up. Yeah, the worst for me at the worst of it was when I would smile at somebody and they wouldn't smile back or they'd look away or whatever. And I felt like I must be a horrible person that this person didn't even want me to smile at them. That was that got to the extreme as it got. And my therapist is like, Debbie, you can't live in this world if you can't walk down the street without feeling like a bad person. Right. Oh, yeah. Now, so you kind of I feel like

you say something that kind of always goes in line with kind of one thing I say. And I say that I was able to overcome my trauma when I started to realize that it wasn't about me. You know, I was kind of just a vessel at the time, but these people were doing it because they were messed up. It was about them. And I know you kind of say something similar. How did that belief come about? When I started realizing that I was not black and dirty and horrible and shouldn't be, then I had to face the fact that they were. Right.

And how hard is it to deal with the fact that these things that happen to you because other people are sick? Isn't that kind of horrible? For me, my father taught me things and then coincidentally, these people required the same behaviors. So I knew that if I just could believe like he did and if it just would be normal and good like everybody else thought it was, I would be fine. But I could not make that mental leap. Not even as a kid. Yeah, of course. Wow.

Yeah. Well, that's sucky yes but if you get through all that in the book then you get to see some really great things okay well i know i wanted to ask you about group therapy it's something i never did not something i never thought about but i can imagine just the leap in your healing journey it went from doing a one-on-one with a therapy to now being with a group of non-professionals and a room of feelings. Yes. Well, there was one professional in the room, but yeah. One professional, of course, but you know. It was very scary. It took a lot of support to get through it. So what do you say to people who feel like they can't do it?

You can do it. I mean, we've all been through the very worst that could ever happen to us and we survived it. And I know for me, that worst is so extreme that I will never run across anything that hurts that badly and I will never be under that kind of control by another human being again. Right.

So what is your safe space? Like, do you have one that you go to when you feel down? And I know you say you like writing. I do. That's something that you do when the sadness starts to creep in? I spend as much time with little kids as I can. Okay. That'll be good. See, with little kids as I can. Okay. That'll be good.

See, that little kids are good for. See, little kids are good for two things, right? I'm going to tell you. One, to play with. Number two, chores. If I don't got to wash the dishes, I'll be all the way good. Okay? Oh, Lord.

So if he ever does have kids, they're going to be required to work like work you know what i say i want to get old enough to clean the dishes because other than that well i don't want to foster kids right okay i'm still torn i'm still torn yes i want to foster storm so they could do chores. It's really it saddens me to that we live in a world where people don't know what love is. That absolutely destroys me, you know, and then we hear your story. And I think of all the love that was absence for majority of your life. And that pains, you know, so it's cool to see you smile and it's cool to see the love in you now because i just met you but one thing is that we know you have a story and it's amazingly horrible you know it's like you can't even phantom some of the things that you know it's like you refer to people as them. This is not a good, this is not a good story. Set the alarms, you know, but it's cool to see like, okay, the love in yourself now, you know, you're giving that to us, you know, you're showing if nothing else, the love that

you have for you. And that's pretty cool. But it's still sad that there's people in this world that don't know that they can get to a level of healing where they can witness love. So part of me wants to bring people into my family because I feel like I have a lot of love to give. But it's also scary because how do you love somebody past pain that they've been through? And I know it's very easy for people to say, you just love them, but it's still a way that you have to do it. And I don't know if I'm capable of that yet, because I'm still healing myself and I'm still on my healing journey. So not that I say that I feel

like there needs to be a right time, but I feel like there needs to be a right time. You have to respect the journey and you'll always be on a journey of some sort. Right. And the hope is that you get bigger inside so you can fit more people into your love space. Right, right, right. Okay, love space. I like that. I like that.

Okay, season 2.5 was about a safe space. We're going to make season 3 about the love space. I like it. Good idea it yeah yeah that's really dope i never heard that that was a very well that was a really good way of just saying that it makes so much sense a love space you know you know you got your personal space you know so uh let's talk about that um because i'm pretty sure that you go through moments now that you feel like your personal space gets invaded especially with all that you've been through how do you handle those situations you know what i really hardly ever get triggered by

anything awesome anymore i just overcame it i didn't I was a victim and then I was a survivor. And now I just am whole, which to me is totally miraculous. And my opinion of it in botany, there's genetically different than the organism that created it. It's this once in every once in a while thing that happens. And I was placed in so much badness. There's really no way to know how I came out of being able to love anybody or even to stay alive. And I just, because I didn't learn it from anybody. There was nobody in my life to model it for me. Teachers when I got older, but that's really limited in how much it can really affect you. But somehow I was born to be able to overcome this and to love other people, even when I

didn't love myself. And to nurture children too. That's pretty amazing. You know? Right. Yeah. So you know what that be i kind of i always bring my mom up in these shows right yeah he does my best friend i love my mama okay but one thing my mom is 73 now she's gonna kill me to tell her age but she's 73 so deal with it but she's um she's going through like this weird part in her life where she kind of had a similar life

as far as no one ever taught her anything now she went through a lot of her own states of abuse and those kind of things but she never you know she was saying she always tells a story about how one time like she was just out in public and she had like a whole bunch of hair

under her arms and like a stranger told her like you need to cut that up no one in her family ever taught her about grooming and you know oh no she was you know my mom told stories about she used to disappear in her nightgown a bata and like barefoot and just like be all around Puerto Rico and just do weird things. But now she, she's like, she goes through the guilt. I feel like it's guilt of suffering that us, her children went through because she feels like, because no one taught her certain things that she couldn't possibly be the best mom that she is. I feel completely opposite. You know, I feel like because of who you are and because you are completely a self-made queen,

you know, my mom is a goddess. You know, we've seen her rise up from nothing. And this is something that we got to witness, which is why I love strong women. You know, it is like, I don't understand how women cannot be so strong because I've always had a strong woman figure in my life. Like when I grow up, I want to be a strong women. You know, it is like, I don't understand how women cannot be so strong because I've always had a strong woman figure in my life.

Like when I grow up, I want to be a strong woman. You know what I'm saying? So that is what I want to be. I want to be like my mama. Just showed everybody my gray hair. But what I wanted to ask Debbie, I actually wanted you to give my mom some advice right because I I try to always tell her like you just got to let that stuff go like you did amazing there was never a time that I feel like she wasn't the best version of herself at that time yes did

she get better with time of course but you always gave us the best that you could in the moment. And what you said just made me think, like, that's a great lesson from my mom. Like she needs to move on from those things. And I know that's very, very hard to say. But what would be your advice to my mom or people like my mom? Start loving yourself. Take everything you give to other people and give it to yourself. Right. Because I wanted to kill the inner child probably for a decade. I just couldn't see how I could be happy with that yucky little thing hanging around.

I'd be so happy if I could just kill her. And people said it a lot, but eventually I realized that I can't kill her because she isn't really a different person. Right. And it's me. And maybe that's why I wanted to die for so long. But once I decided I couldn't kill her, I started doing a lot of imaginary fantasizing, you know, go back and talk to her, that stuff that they say. And when I was able to accept many different broken parts you know this one happened when I was nine

this happened when I was 12 I learned to accept all of them and she wasn't ugly and dirty anymore and she wasn't a secret and she wasn't something who hurt me anymore right you just have to get to that point and many of the stories in the later part of the book are about things I did to try to come to terms with that little child. That was me. Right. And you said something, I guess, amazing again, acceptance, you know, I feel like acceptance is a big part of the healing process. Excuse me. I'm over here burping. That's real rude. Like that's the most masculine thing I did all day.

I have a question, but I don't want to interrupt anybody. No, no. But can I ask that question? How much how much would you stress acceptance to people? Like accepting that this happened to you or accepting, you know, it's like, really, that's the way to kind of get past it. You have to stop living as if that's now. That's the very first thing you have to do. You have to put some space between that and who you are now. I thought I was nine years old in that house for so long, probably into my 40s, because that's where I was stuck. That's where I hated myself so completely. And I was being treated so horribly that I just felt it every minute of every

day, like it was yesterday. So you got to get that space in there. Okay. Hey, Rebecca, I'm going to cut you off okay now I can yeah um okay um so what's your relationship like now with your sister in I don't know if your father mother you have a relationship with them my sister is my very best friend I love her to. I love her as she was my child when I was little. I love her as the person who kept me alive and who gave me some mothering growing up. And I love her because she's a wonderful, beautiful person. And I like being with her. My father. Hi, sister.

Sue. Sue. Hi, Sue. My father, I have not had contact with for a long time. Shortly after I met my ex-husband, I stopped contact with him. And I picked it up again at one point because my sister was talking to him. And I thought, well, maybe

he's not so bad anymore. And that lasted less than a year. And then I just had to cut him off again. And I felt a little guilty. Like, I shouldn't have come back if I'm going to leave again. And I thought about staying because of that. And then I was just too healthy to do it oh my god my mother and my stepfather i uh mostly talk to on the phone they're getting too old to travel so i don't see them very often but i talk to them on the phone in limited doses so have you found forgiveness for your father at all? I mean,

is the forgiveness that needed to be said? I think more it all became irrelevant. Right. I mean, he's not stuck in my head as a voice. He was a voice in my head for a long time. And I don't care what happens to him, but I

don't wish anything bad to him either. Right, right, right. It's like, if I don't wish anything bad to him either. Right, right, right. It's like, if I never see you again, it's okay. I don't know. There's no reason for me to, because I lost that whole side of my family. Right, right. And they're not your family, they're your relatives.

My relatives, yes. You were born into that. Family is who you love, what you make, and who you bring into your circle. I have that, too. I have that too. I'm very fortunate. And yes, that's clearly amazing. Have you and your sister ever had a conversation about things you went through? Inlimited amounts.

I asked her not to read the book, and I have not told her a lot of things because I did it to keep her from getting traumatized back then. So why on earth would I want to traumatize her now? Very good answer. Yes, definitely. You think she's stuck in radio? I know she doesn't want to. She's afraid of what she would find out. I know.

Now, was there ever any kind of resentment or anything towards your sister because your life was harder than hers? No, there really wasn't. I was just grateful that I had her. I tend to be a pretty grateful sort of person. I don't get resentment or envy very often. How do you do that? I always compared myself to me my whole life. Right.

You know, I spent several years in a really bad ghetto type school system. And I didn't learn much, but I did learn how to teach because the only way to get past what a subject we was doing was to get my classmates to be able to pass the test so we could go on to the next thing. So I, it was partially to make them safe because I was giving them something and then maybe they won't hurt me.

Right. And I was intelligent and there was no challenge in that school. So I was the only one I could compare me to. I didn't see anybody around me that I was trying to rise up higher than. Right, right, right. That is my, I tell people all the time when they tell me like, I'm not perfect or nobody's perfect. And it's like, who are you comparing yourself to? Because if there's only one you, how can you not be perfect?

So you kind of said that in another way. So I guess to get serious though, a little bit. So there are a lot of people who watch us who are on that cusp of maybe I have trauma, but I don't want to admit it. And I wanted you to ask, you know, like, what would you say to those people? What would you tell those people, those people that are watching now that, you know, number one, that story is not bad as yours because that is a concept that people have. Oh, I should be grateful that he's

only beating me because of people getting killed. No, you shouldn't be grateful for anything that makes you feel bad. Great nothing should be in it. It's not great. You don't feel grateful. It's not a great time. If it feels bad, it's not for you. So I guess I want two-part question, of course. What would you say to people who just aren't speaking up or don't know better or don't know how to take that leap into really seeing if they have trauma and then people who are scared of it completely? If you think that there's something wrong, there's something wrong. People do not walk around thinking. I'm a horrible person for no reason. Most

people have some kind of brokenness in them, but to believe that you probably didn't have trauma because you can't remember it or because you think you're comparing your story to mine and yours was only blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We don't tie around pain in us for no reason. And sometimes you don't need to know why. It's better from what I've seen in other people. If you don't have to dredge up the why, if you can just move forward and build habits and relationships, and it just becomes irrelevant in the best case scenarios. But don't minimize yourself, best case scenarios. Right. But don't minimize yourself, I would say.

Definitely. And, you know, and I kind of just wanted to add and say that you might find that what you thought was bad is not bad, but it's still worth knowing for sure. You know, it's not worth knowing for sure, honestly. I've known people that just choose to start believing in themselves into rebuilding themselves and you know sometimes it's just that you had a mother who's mentally ill this is not a just but if you had a mother who's mentally ill

she didn't give you the skills the skills you needed as a normal, so to speak, person. She is not capable of teaching you emotional regulation or how to get along with other people or how to stand up for yourself. So even if you've never beaten or raped or molested, there was still a broken part. And we all come with broken parts. I come with a lot of broken parts. Me too. But I keep with a lot of broken parts. Me too. But I keep a wrench and a screwdriver handy.

Oh my God. That has got to be the corniest thing you've ever said. I just, it was, America is turning off our podcast right now. Oh my God. No, they're not.

Cause they're watching Debbie. Okay. Well, after. No, they're not because they're watching Debbie. Okay. After you said that, I'm sorry, Debbie. But I hope they continue watching. Keep watching, people. You know what, Rebecca? You're fired. No, I'm not.

Sorry. Okay, sorry, Debbie. Yeah. Really, I'm not. Sorry. Okay, sorry, Debbie. Yeah. Yeah, it's all in fun. Really, I love, I really, really, really, really, really, really love you. Those little ones should treat that. Denise does love me. Oh, my God.

I told you I love you. I told you. You know what I got? I was born with my mom's look, but my dad's sense of humor. And if you weren't an ugly bitch, that means he couldn't stand your ass. So people will want to be called an ugly bitch. It's like, you just going to sit here and let him call you ugly bitch? Yes, because that means he loves me.

But they knew his way up. My dad, actually yesterday was two years that my dad, since my dad been gone, passed away from coronavirus. Yesterday was two years. And you know, it was funny.

I was going to write something about it. Actually, when you guys see this, it's going to be past all this. So October 4th was two years. And I was thinking I was going to write it to somebody. But I was like, you know what? I'm pretty sure I was not going to write something to somebody. I was going to make a post or, you know, social media or something.

Just, you know, just honoring him. Right. But I felt like the best way I can honor him was not to rub it in everybody in my family's face. You know, because I'm like, you're scrolling through Facebook and you're seeing 13. Oh, we miss you. We wish you was never here. And, you know, I felt like it was I needed to let everybody grieve their own way without adding my grieving to their grieving. But it's a day after. So now I'm going to talk about it. Fair enough.

Right. So now your book took a really long time. You've released it. How, was that a big part of your healing also? Kind of getting it out into a book? Really, by the time it went into a book,

I felt healed. Largely before I started writing the hard parts. Because I couldn't write any of it until I had resolved that specific issue. When it didn't hurt anymore, that's when I knew it was time to write about it. And then when did you feel it,

or why did you feel it was important to tell your story? Because I didn't just survive. I think most people that experience that level of pain have become addicted to something somewhere along the line that really makes their life hard and makes it hard to come back from. And I feel so fortunate I didn't do those. I became, I had an eating disorder, which is horrible enough. But to get into those substance abuses, I never would have come back out again. So me getting choked during sex, though, that's not necessarily a bad thing, right? You getting choked up during sex?

Is that what you're saying? When you're having sex and you're getting choked and you... Oh, never mind. We're losing... Yeah, we're losing viewers every second. You think so. We just gained three. I was just going to say, maybe we're gaining a bit.

A lot of people like being choked out there okay it's okay it's a little bit if you like it if it's something that appeals to you remember that oh one thing fits all but you should never feel in danger you should never feel your life is at risk you should never feel like someone's trying to harm you remember those things are important they are important once you start to feel those ways, uh, yeah. Uh, you know, we always say find yourself a safe place so that you can find your love space. Okay. Oh, there it is. That was perfect.

So now we can get your book probably anywhere books are sold or. Yes. Um, I'll give you the link. You can buy it from me directly, or you can get the paperback on Amazon. The ebook is on most ebook platforms. Cool. Now Barnes and Noble, et cetera. We're going to buy a book, but I need an autograph. Okay. Okay. Look, it's one part of the deal if you're on the podcast i need an autograph book but we'll pay for your book so we'll definitely order it of course and we just believe in

supporting you in your amazing journey um it's really really cool i i'm sitting here and i'm thinking about like you're saying like just kind of forget about those things and they don't need to be open and my healing was a little journey journey was a little different because i kind of opened and went through all those things. So it's it's kind of cool to me. It's kind of cool because I feel like we might be at our same place, almost a similar place in life where it's just, hey, this is me. This is who I am. You know, actually, you know what happiness is like, too, and what peace is. And that's pretty incredible but i don't think

forgetting it would have worked for me wouldn't work for me either but people that just have this little niggle that maybe there's something could be possible to be able to just resolve the feelings without getting in touch with the original trauma that's what the mDR does a lot. Okay. And that's a good point. But it just goes to show you guys that there's so many ways to healing. Absolutely. Being happy, I'm going to say for more than just a day, is important. But if you could just get that one day. Let's start with that one day, that one hour, that one minute.

Or a moment. Yeah. It's worth discovering what makes you happy, what's your peace. Debbie, any last words, any last advice, anything you want to give our audience, anything that we didn't let you talk about because I talked too much? No, not at all. But just know there are specific things that worked for me that are in the book that people can take as it is and take something away from it and do something similar for themselves. A lot of it had to do with relationships and I used a lot of creativity. I had very magical thinking for a very, very long time, you know, like till yesterday. And so I am able because of that to, for example, take a doll and love that doll and then feel like I'm being loved as I love that doll.

So there's some really cool different skills in the end of the book. And I am also available to talk with groups or to run workshops, which are based on the skills in the book. Plus ones I've learned since the book learned since the end of the book. And you work with anybody with any kind of trauma, correct? Or is it just mainly around sexual assault? No, not mainly around sexual assault, mainly around done to you. So if you feel guilty because you did something wrong, my methods and ideas probably wouldn't work for you because the whole point is it wasn't your fault. And you stopped blaming yourself. You didn't do it because you wanted to have sex.

You did it because you wanted to survive. Right, right. Definitely. And it is completely two different things. Rebecca, what you got? Any last words for people watching that you think turned off the podcast, but they didn't? Talk to them. Yeah, no.

Thank you for staying with us, even though Micah is crazy. But I'm sure Debbie is grateful that you stayed with us as well. Thank you, Debbie, for sharing your story with us. And I think that anybody who reads your book is reading it because they need to, and I am very sorry. They've had to experience anything that they've had to, that has prompted them to um but like micah said find your safe space to find your love space right that's what you said right it's close enough it is yeah okay but i also wanted to say can i just add on to you real quick i know you just finished talking about how people cut you off but i thought it was important to say like don't feel like you need to have experience what Debbie experienced to

read the book because read the book. Number one, you never know what you can get out of it. Number two, there are methods of healing literally in that book because you see it in front of you and it may work for you. But I also feel like it gives you a knowledge to maybe see something in someone else that you can pass the book on to. Absolutely. So just get the book. Okay. We're going to list all of the links before and I'm going to pass it back to Rebecca to close it out because I cut you off. That's okay. Well, thank you again for watching and sticking with us. I know it may have been challenging here or there, but again, thank you.

I made two jokes. I made two jokes. Okay. Too, too many. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But again, thank you so much for Debbie. And we will have all of your contact information running across the screen and where they can buy your book and so forth. And yeah, thank you for watching everyone. Thank you for watching. Thanks guys. We'll see you next week. Thank you so much, Debbie, for being on and for showing us what it looks like to love yourself after pain. We really appreciate you. And we'll see you next week, guys. Until then,

peace, love, and blessings.