Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques - 183. Rethinks: How Anxiety Can Fuel Better Communication

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Reframe anxiety as a strength and use stress to enhance your communication.Stress, anxiety, nervousness — when these feelings inevitably arise, lecturer Kelly McGonigal says it’s not about making them go away, but using them to your advantage.“What I have come to value about anxiety,” says McGonigal, “is it’s a sign that I care.” As she explains, feelings of stress alert us to things that matter to us and help us stay present in the moment — particularly useful, she says, when it comes to communication.In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, McGonigal and host Matt Abrahams discuss how to channel stress toward more effective communication and to a deeper connection to our own purpose and meaning.Episode Reference Links:Kelly McGonigal Original Episode: Ep.69 Feeling Nervous? How Anxiety Can Fuel Better CommunicationEp.10 High-Stakes Communication: How to Manage Anxiety When Speaking in Front of OthersEp.33 Hacking your Speaking Anxiety: How Lessons from Neuroscience Can Help You Communicate Confidently. Connect:Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart PremiumEmail Questions & Feedback >>> [e-mail] Transcripts >>> Think Fast Talk Smart WebsiteNewsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>> FasterSmarter.ioThink Fast Talk Smart >>> LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTubeMatt Abrahams >>> LinkedInChapters:(00:00) - Introduction (03:21) - The Benefits of Anxiety in Communication (06:40) - Presence and Anxiety in Performance (08:20) - Common Communication Mistakes (12:19) - Encouraging Audience Engagement (15:23) - Crafting Effective Communication (17:20) - The Joy of Movement (20:28) - The Final Three Questions (27:49) - Conclusion ********Thank you to our sponsors.  These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost.Strawberry.me. Get 50% off your first coaching session today at Strawberry.me/smartJoin our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. 

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Hi, Matt here. us get quite nervous when we need to communicate something that is important to us. Yet, there are things we can do to tame and reframe our anxiety. In essence, we can make use of our nervousness to propel us to success. We're opening up our archive to bring you a best-of episode where I speak with Kelly McGonigal, who not only provides actionable ways to feel more calm and confident in our communication, but she shares insights into how backward mapping can help craft compelling content. How we approach our communication and how we approach others when we're nervous about our communication can make a tremendous difference in feeling confident and portraying that confidence.

I'm Matt Abrams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to ThinkBask, Pothsmart, the Pots. I am really excited today to chat with Kelly McGonagall. Kelly is a lecturer at Stanford GSP, who teaches a class on presentation and communication skills for academics. She is also the best-selling author of The Willpower Instinct, The Upside of Stress, and her latest book is The Joy of Movement, How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage. Welcome, Kelly. Thanks for being here. I am super excited to get time with you.

Oh, thank you for having me. I know we have a lot to talk about. I think we have a lot of common passions. Absolutely. So let's go ahead and get started. You have so many interesting and exciting areas that you look into and explore. I look forward to talking about all of them. But I'd like to start where I first came to know you and your work, like millions of people. And I mean like 29 millions of people. I watched your TED Talk, how to make stress your friend. We've addressed the topic of anxiety management and communication several times on this. podcast. And I'm just curious to get your take on how we can manage anxiety and leverage the benefits that it has for our communication. Oh, leverage the benefits of anxiety for communication. Okay, well, let me start by saying I'm someone who is born anxious. So I come to this sincerely and in a bit of desperation, right? So not when those people who's like, oh, I've never been nervous. And therefore, I'll teach other people how not to be nervous. It's more, I know what it's like to have a panic attack. So let's figure out how to stay engaged with life, even when anxiety is

a part of your life. And I'd say so since you said the benefit of it, I think that for me, what I have come to value about anxiety is it's a sign that I care. So, you know, for example, when I start to feel anxious now, I will say to myself, my heart is in it, which is a kind of a mindset reset. You know, I can feel my heart pounding maybe or I feel other stuff happening in my body. And saying my heart is in it is a way of embracing that one of the reasons I have anxiety is not because my nervous system is broken or, you know, I'm a person who just can't face life. I have anxiety in moments that matter where I recognize that something is at stake and I want to contribute or I want to do my best. I want to serve. I want to enjoy life. When you come to value

that anxiety is a signal of meaning often or a signal of caring, then the benefit is in staying wholehearted. So that in that moment, I don't have to say to myself, Kelly, if you don't calm down, you're going to blow it. Or Kelly, why are you anxious? What's wrong with you? I don't have to get into that self-talk. I can instead double down on the caring. I can think about who and what I care about, why this matters to me, maybe I can imagine the best possible outcome. And then I can also use the energy that often comes with anxiety. I've come to recognize anxiety as a physical state that actually really does serve me when I am in a role that I'm meant to be in. So, for example, teaching. If I don't get anxious before I teach a class, I mean any class, a class I've taught a thousand

times before, if I'm not feeling anxious right before it or even when I'm walking over to teach it, there's something wrong. It's almost like I'm dissociated from the fact that this is what I was born to do. I prepared really hard for it. I really want to connect with my students. If I'm not feeling that, something's off because I've learned that I can actually trust myself to use that energy. I know that that energy, like my body is now a vehicle for it. And that comes in part, from practice, a lot of practice, a lot of preparation, and then this developing self-trust. I really like how you literally embody the notion of greeting your anxiety. And the mantra that, you know, my heart's in it is so powerful because one of the first signs people report is their

hearts pounding and it distracts them. But if you embrace that and say, hey, this means that I care about this. And it even extends to, I care about the audience that I'm in front of. And I hear you about getting nervous about something that's important and how it clues me into this is meaningful for me. And I also get nervous before I teach. And I now look for it like you do. And if I didn't have it, I'd never happen. Like once or twice I've had a class

where I was feeling kind of numb before. And man, that things did not go well. Right. It's either one I've done before or something was distracting and you missed that. I wasn't there. It wasn't present for it. And that's even another way to reframe it,

that sometimes my anxiety is a sign of presence, which is so different from how people typically think of presence as being very calm. You know, I actually love the energy of anxiety when it's that right combination of adrenaline and endorphins and dopamine. We love this feeling. People do all sorts of things to try to get that chemical cocktail of adrenaline and dopamine and endorphins. You know, by paying attention to my physiology and other activities, I love like working out, I realize it feels very physically similar. So I just have to give myself a goal. Like, Anxiety is not as great in situations where I have nothing to do.

I will be honest about that. When it's worrying about the future and there's nothing I can do, or I'm on an airplane, and I clearly can't fly it. Like anxiety in those moments, I have other coping skills for, but since you asked specifically about speaking or that kind of performance. No, that's exactly right. And I think it's that reframing that these are the normal physiological symptoms that in many cases we seek out and enjoy. I think about first dates or exciting conversations. and we're doing the same thing, but we frame them as, hey, this is a great thing. I really like that. You and I both teach communication skills at the GSP. In fact, as part of the COVID emergency plan that was put in place here,

you and I were backups for each other. One of us got really sick. This is a smart policy, by the way. I actually think that was pretty good that we got in the habit of doing that. Yes, that was a first. Well, it reduced stress for me that I knew somebody as competent as you could step in, although I do have to admit I got a little nervous that my students would like you more than if I disappeared. I'm curious, what do you find are the most common mistakes you see our students and those you coach when it comes to communication? Yeah, so first of all, let me set the context. I work primarily with PhD students who are all doing amazing research. So they're used to communicating their research in academic settings. And my class is to help them communicate in every setting, professionally at conferences, but also to the media and to potential collaborators and stakeholders and a random person on the street. And I would say that the thing that I say over and over again, and we do all of these exercises to try to practice it, and yet is really hard for them, is to talk about crunching details, not abstractions.

So I don't want to know that you study the technological interface of emotions and artificial intelligence in market analysis of blah. like basically string of nouns. And I'm waiting to like, okay, would you point to something that you actually study? Like, for example, a dating app. Okay, great. And what problem are you trying to solve? How to get people better matches or something like that. And so I'm always saying like, show me the actual thing. Show me the question you ask people in your study. Take a picture of people doing the thing that you study, even if what you're doing is modeling and you never leave your computer. go out into the world and take a picture of the thing that you're modeling so that I understand. So I say that's the biggest thing we work on. I talk about coming up with artifacts for your

research, the photos, the videos, the audio samples, the objects that will help people understand what you do and using language that people will immediately understand. I think the other mistake is the mindset that a lot of academics have, in part because they're terrified. Getting a PhD is basically understanding that you don't know anything and people are even, to point that out to you. So people get in this habit of feeling like they have to prove that they know stuff, hide that they don't know stuff, and also persuade you that their research is correct. So a lot of times in research presentations or communications, my students will try to like talk fast and deliver things so fast you can barely keep up so you can't interrupt

with critiques. And I don't want to take questions because the question, questions might reveal what I don't know. There's this idea that, like, my job is to just sort of push my research at you and get through it without there being any kind of critical dialogue. And what I always say is the purpose of any really interesting communication should be for the other person to have interesting thoughts in their own head about your work. It's not to convince them that your work is right or important or that you know everything about it. You want the person who is listening to you or watching you to think, wait, what if this? Or I wonder if, or I don't think so, the degree to which they are having their own interesting, spontaneous thoughts and questions.

That's the measure of success. It really reframes what you're doing and how you do it. Those are two things we spend a lot of time talking about. Wow. So there's a lot there. I really like that the goal is to have people have their own experience about your content. Absolutely. And not only does that invite collaboration rather than challenge and threat, but it also forces you, I think, to be audience-centric. My goal is to have you have an experience

rather than me just push all that information. We do all that. I teach empathic design for talks. What do they need to know? When do they need to know it? What do they need to see? What do they need to like literally visually see? When do they need to be able to interrupt that it really is from that point of view? And it's not, this is not just for academics. anybody is in that same position. I coach and teach executives and managers who feel like they don't want to be threatened and challenged. They just want to push out their decrees and move forward. It's the same thing that we tell them is if there are problems with your work, people already know. It's so funny. I'll see students, like, they'll say something kind of interesting and I'll be like, wait a minute.

That was so fascinating. Like I'm remembering that this woman in my class had mentioned that she calculated stuff with a certain 15 minute window during market trade. And it was very specific. I was like, that's so interesting. Why that 15-minute window? And tell me more about that. She's like, well, I kind of rushed through that because I didn't want anyone to ask questions about it. I was afraid that maybe it was like the wrong choice. I'm like, no, this is that you made a choice. Right. Is interesting. And it almost doesn't matter if it's the perfect choice. I want to know that you made a choice. I want to hear why you made the choice. I want to be able to have an opinion about your choice. I think that that particular example is

really important and resonates nicely with some of the things we've talked about when we've talked with folks who are experts at improv, make a choice, commit to the choice, be behind that choice, and be willing to accept what consequences come from that choice. And I don't want to lose what you said earlier about this notion of help people actually see what you're talking about. That is so critical. It is so easy to hide behind slides and data. But if you can actually have people, help people have an experience of what you're talking about. It can be with data too. So I'm always saying, like, you know, if you've got videos of babies doing funny things

because you study infant cognition, show the baby videos. But also, if what you've got is data or a model, you know, what people always do is they put it all up there and they're like, as you can see X next. I'm like, no. Right. You don't say as you can see. Right. You walk me through it.

What you're looking at here is this. Notice this. Like you zoom in. You interpret it. This dot. this slope, whatever, this means this. As you can see, it's different from that. Like, you want people to actually see it. So it can be photos and videos or it can be data. But the idea that somebody can understand something just because their eyes see it on a slide that's so different

from somebody having an actual understanding and an opinion about it. Oh, absolutely. And it takes them outside of themselves and puts them in their audience's perspective. And I just want to get meta for a second and not Facebook. But you have done a great job and the answer to that question of doing exactly what you're talking about. You helped show us and give us an experience of it. You are an excellent communicator yourself, both in writing and speaking. I'm wondering if you can share a bit about your process. What do you do as you're thinking about crafting your communication? I always start with the best possible outcome for the audience that I care about most. So you can never control everyone who's in the room or everyone who reads the op-ed that you write

or the book that you write. So I'm always thinking, well, who am I really trying to speak to or reach? And what's the best possible outcome for them? Do I want them to feel a certain way? do I want them to change their behavior in a certain way? And then I work backwards and I think, what do they need to hear? What do they need to do? What story could I tell that would make that outcome more likely? And I'm often like literally just writing this stuff down. I'm writing that out. And I start to get ideas for content blocks. And this would be true if I was drafting a chapter for a

book or giving a keynote. And I'll often think, well, what are these content blocks? Like, what's the best story that I have. What's the best case study I have? What's the best scientific study I have? You know, I really learned to put things in judiciously and that it only has to be one. I only have to tell one story for an idea. I only have to share one study. Wow. So to get back to the first part of what you said that I find so cool is you actually backward map. You start with what's the outcome and what are the steps that I need to get there. I think about for teaching too. That's how you design a class. Absolutely.

We haven't talked about that before, but it's really interesting to start with what's the end and then what do I need to add to it? And you are adding things very judiciously. Just one key example. You know, many of our listeners know that for decades I've found great benefit from doing the martial arts and I know you're a big believer in exercise in movement,

not just in communication, but in life in general. And your newest book, The Joy of Movement, is a testament to that idea. I'm curious if you could just share why exercise is so important, not just for health, but for life. And I saw in the New York Times that you've got joy exercises. And I'd like to hear a little bit about that. We all need a little more joy in our lives. People, listen, Patav couldn't see. I just did a joy move when you said that. Let's go backwards. Let's start with a joy workout. Sure, please. So one of the things I tell my

students is always start in the middle of the action. Like, start your talk with something interesting and specific. So often people start with like these general vague things. It's got to be like, an action movie. I tell my students. Okay. So let me, when I explain the joy workout, you will understand how I think about movement. So the New York Times called me up and they were like, you know, we've got all these seven minute workouts that are based on getting your heart rate up or like using all your muscles in a specific way. And we were curious, would it be possible to create a workout specifically to make people happy? And I was like, why yes? Actually, I do it 10 times a week. what they ended up doing was asking me to leverage the science of what we know about what joy

looks like and feels like in the body. And can you teach people to move in those ways so that it actually makes them happier, more optimistic, feeling more connected, more celebratory? And it's based on this fascinating research that when people are in situations where they are dynamically happy, like you get good news. And just imagine what would you do when you get good news? People pump their fists, they throw their arms in there, they jump up and down. What would you do if you saw someone that you love but you haven't seen in years? You fling your arms open wide.

You like lift your face to the heavens. There are these gestures that people do. Or even if you think about like an athlete who just did something amazing in a game, right? They pose, they show off, they do their happy dance. So it turns out that these movements are really similar all over the world. In lots of different cultures,

it seems to be a natural expression of joy. So I developed this workout where you just like jump for joy and celebrate and sway and bounce. Show people what it can look like, but you do it your own way. We put it to happy music designed to also make people feel better. And by the end of eight minutes, the idea is you can move your body in ways that get your heart rate up that are good for you physically. But you did it not as like a punishment for what you ate or not because you're afraid of some disease you might get in a decade. Or giving a presentation. Yeah, but you do it because you can have a direct experience in movement that you value.

And, you know, the research is really clear that people who are more physically active in an activity they enjoy. They're happier. They have better relationships. They have more meaning in life. I would love for all of the people we work with to experience that joy in their communication, but also in just life in general. I find your approach to both mind and body, mindset and physical movements, really empowering and so helpful. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors.

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That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upw-w-rk.com. And now back to our conversation. Before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me. you up for that? Yes. All right. I saw a big smile, everybody. If you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be? I think this is going to be unusual, but my honest answer is trust that people are adequate to their experiences. That was eight. That's all right. I'll let you go. Help me understand

what that means. Trust that people are adequate to their experiences. So this was something that I was taught by a Zen teacher talking about how we show up for other people and how important it is, particularly when you're trying to help someone, that to be present with them in a way that can hold the opposites of both, you might be suffering right now, you might be overwhelmed, you might have health challenges and whatever the situation is, and I want to help. and also to have some kind of core belief that because you're human and because this is your reality,

you're adequate to this moment. There's something in you that is adequate to the moment of your life. And this is something that it's a matter of trust or faith. It's a kind of putting a trust in the audience as well that it's their life. It revolves around them. And I'm just here in a moment of interest.

interaction. And often before I give a talk, I'll even think like, all right, I just hope that I say or do something that somebody here needed to hear. That's a lovely mantra as well. I found myself getting hung up on the word adequate because to me adequate means minimally acceptable, but in the way you're using it, it's very different. And it's an adequate and confidence. Nobody wants to be adequate, but I think what it is is it, what's saying is people often desperately feel that they're not adequate to this moment. I'm inadequate to this. I can't handle this. This is too much. And I know what that feels like. Like, I have that voice in my head, too. So there's something about, it's a kind of acceptance. Absolutely. And it's also removed some of the

pressure that I don't have to be great. Let me ask you the second question. And I'll be very curious to hear your answer. Who is a communicator that you admire and why? So this will be somebody that most people don't know, but I'll try to describe her well enough that you appreciate her. Her name is Natalie Goldberg. So Natalie Goldberg is an author and also a Zen teacher. And she has a really strong accent, like a deep, strong, powerful voice. And so she sounds very distinct. And then what she says when she talks is like just absolute ruthless authenticity. This is how it is.

This is my experience. The details. There's just something so grounded about it. And I will listen to her talk about anything because she'll tell you the color of the carpet, but because she'll tell it to you because it means something. I don't know, it's like the opposite of abstractions. And yet she's so in touch with what it means to be human, but everything that comes out of her teaching and her writing,

I just feel like it reminds me of common humanity. I think a communicator that we admire who inspires us and challenges us to change or at least reflect on who we are is the right kind of communicator. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? I have an answer that actually has three parts that I didn't even have to make up for this. Okay. This is something also that I teach in my communication class and also when I've coached people giving TED talks. This is an idea that I learned from Gail Larson who teaches a speaking style that I, I really admire. It's really about like viewing, speaking as an opportunity to change people's lives.

And she says that there are three sort of sides of yourself that you can show in any talk. One is the face of wonder, which is really, it's curiosity, it's open-mindedness. It's what you wonder about. It's what motivate to you. The second is the face of creative fire. And it's what you're passionate about. It's your drive. It's all of your time and your energy made manifest in showing that you care. And then the third is my favorite, which I don't know how often I get to do it, but it's rude magnificence. And that is when you realize there's something that people need to hear that might be difficult. And you know it because of your lived experience or the wisdom that you have acquired through your own suffering and adversity, or because you've been willing to look

and think about something for a long time, do you have an opportunity to say something that feels important and true that is, you're the one who can say it, you're the one in the room who has thought about this the most, or you have a unique life experience to share? Well, I would have expected no less from a communication teacher to share three really powerful ingredients. So the notion of curiosity, passion, and what I'm going to call authentic wisdom. Well, Kelly, this has been a true joy and pleasure for sure. I have always admired what you teach and how you teach it and the passion that you bring. And it's been a true pleasure to chat. And I'm hoping that people take away that there's so much value into reflecting on our communication,

on our physical well-being and the joy that we can bring to others. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for a Think Fast, Talk Smart, Best of episode. To learn more about anxiety management, please listen to Episode 10 and Episode 33 with Andrew Huberman. This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out FasterSmarter.io for deep dive videos,

English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our premium offering at FasterSmarter.io slash premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast Talk Smart.