Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques - 75. Love & Money: How to Talk About Big Decisions Together

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

Do love and money mix? Labor economist and Stanford Graduate School of Business professor emerita Myra Strober says absolutely. “Separating money and love is not a good idea. I have had 40 years to think about this, and, in my class at the GSB on work and family, each semester I realize how important it is to intertwine love and money."In this episode, Matt Abrahams sits down with Strober and social innovation leader Abby Davisson to discuss the thorny topics of work, money, career, and love. In their new book, Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life’s Biggest Decisions, the coauthors provide a framework for communicating in and around tough decisions with those we love. These may include caring for aging relatives, expanding your family, changing careers or moving.“If you are in a relationship, maybe you have kids or other people living in your household, the first thing you need to realize is that your career decisions are going to affect the whole ecosystem,” Davisson says. “It’s very important not just to clarify what you want, but to anticipate and think about the impact on those around you.”Connect:Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart PremiumEmail Questions & Feedback >>> [e-mail] Transcripts >>> Think Fast Talk Smart WebsiteNewsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>> FasterSmarter.ioThink Fast Talk Smart >>> LinkedIn,  Instagram, YouTubeMatt Abrahams >>> LinkedInEpisode Reference Links: Myra Strober: Breaking Barriers at Stanford GSBAchieving Balance In Work and Life, video with Myra StroberMyra Strober: How the Workplace Works — or Doesn't — for FamiliesAn Economist’s Take on Why Parental Leave MattersHow Companies Can Solve the Pay Equity ProblemStrober and Davisson on Forbes ********Thank you to our sponsors.  These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost.Strawberry.me. Get 50% off your first coaching session today at Strawberry.me/smartJoin our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. 

Hi, Matt here. We have two days left before we close our listener viewer survey. A big thank you to all of you who have already provided feedback. Please take a few minutes to share your input on the show. We still have a few prizes left to give to lucky respondents. Go to FasterSmarter.com.com. To give us your input. That's FasterSmartter.com.com. And now, a word from one of our sponsors,

their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. If you've ever thought, I know I can do more, but something's holding me back. You're not alone. Whether you're navigating career growth, seeking better balance, or wanting to communicate with more confidence, coaching can help you bridge the gap between intention and action. At strawberry.comme, you'll get matched with a professional coach who's trained to help you clarify your goals, build lasting confidence, and make intentional choices professionally and personally. This is not therapy. It's not consulting. It's a thought partnership designed to help you take action with more clarity and purpose.

I strongly believe in the value of coaching. All of us can benefit from the help of a coach. Visit strawberry.me slash smart to get matched up with your coach today. That's strawberry.combe slash smart and get 50% off your first coaching session. It's the most affordable time ever to see if coaching is right for you. are full of decisions, both professional and personal. Where it gets interesting and potentially tricky is when both our professional and personal decisions collide. Today we'll learn how communication can play a critical role in helping navigate these issues. I'm Matt Abrams, and I teach

strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart. the podcast. I'm very excited to chat with Myra Strober and Abby Davison. Myra is a labor economist and professor emerita at Stanford University, where she was among the first female professors at the GSB. She was the founding director of the Stanford Center for Research on Women, now the Klayman Institute for Gender Research. Myra studied gender issues in the workplace and the economics of child care. Abby is a social innovation leader and career development expert. She holds master's from both Stanford Graduate School of Business and Education. Abby served as president of the Gap Foundation and co-founded the company's employee resource group for parents.

Together, Myra and Abby just published their new book, Money and Love, an intelligent roadmap for life's biggest decisions. Welcome, Myra and Abby. Thanks for being here. I am super excited for our conversation. Well, thank you. So excited to be here. Great. Let's jump on in. One way we don't define our lives is through the professional and personal decisions we make. We often get advice to not let money concerns influence our decisions about love and never to allow love to influence our decisions about money. Myra, your new book is titled Money and Love. I assume you've thought about this advice and might have some opinions on it. Is it good advice? No, it's not good advice at all.

Separating money and love is not a good idea. I have had about 40 years to think about this. And in my class at the Graduate School of Business on work and family, each semester, I realize how important it is to intertwine love and money. Love decisions, although people fight against this sometimes, love decisions do involve money. If you want to know who to marry, if you want to know how many kids you're going to have, all those decisions involve money. and money decisions involve love. When are you going to retire? Are you going to have enough money to retire?

What career are you going to pursue? And how is that going to affect the rest of your family? All money and love intertwines. So we have to consider both when we make our decisions. You do. So Abby, you and Myra provide a five-step framework to help us make complex, challenging life decisions. Can you share this framework and explain why is it so helpful?

How does it work? Well, no two decisions are alike. As you said, they're complex, they're thorny. And so we wanted to create a flexible but sturdy framework that could be applied to a number of different life decisions. Is this the person I want to spend my life with? Do we want to have kids together? Do we want to continue pursuing our careers while we grow our families? All the way through how do we care for our aging relatives?

So our framework has five steps, and I'll talk about them at the high level, and then we can go deeper and a couple of them. So clarify what's important to you. Communicate with the people involved. I know that's near and dear to your heart. Think about a broad range of choices, check in with trusted resources, and consider the consequences. I love that it's easy to remember, five C's. And as those who listen to the podcast know, I'm a big fan of frameworks. and structure. So I do look forward to drilling down a bit. And of course, I want to drill down on the

communication step of your framework. Maira, you both recommend opening up a two-way dialogue with those involved in the decisions we are contemplating. Do you have advice on how to initiate these conversations? I can imagine that this can be very difficult if the decisions we're contemplating run counter to the expectations the other folks involved have. For example, delaying marriage or starting a family, seeking to move to another job or a location, what advice can you give us? Well, the first piece of advice is don't startle the person that you're about to communicate. You know, you've just finished dinner. One of you is still clearing the dishes off the table. And all of a sudden you say, I'm thinking about a new job. That's not the best way to communicate.

Much better is to say, there's something really important I want to talk with you about. can we carve out a little bit of time tonight or if not tonight? Can we spend some part of Saturday talking about this? That would be my first piece of advice on communication. That's really helpful. My wife and I often joke that we both do this to each other. We're so busy during the day, we don't have time to think. So right as we're going to bed, we're like, oh yes, we need to talk about this. And we both feel relieved that we got it off our chest, whatever it was. But then the other person lays awake at night, staring at the ceiling, thinking about what do these means? So taking the time to be thoughtful about when you have the communication, really very, very important. Thank you.

We've talked about that a bit when we talk about giving feedback as well. The timing of that is really important. So, Abby, when it comes to your checking in step, what guidance can you provide on how we can get honest and helpful input, feedback, and advice from those who are close to us? I fear that our closest friends and family might simply tell us what they think we want to hear rather than what they really believe. It's a good point, and part of it is actually how you frame the check-in step. So it's one thing to go to a trusted friend or resource and say, what do you think I should do? And that's not what we advise. It's very helpful to hear examples of how other people have approached these decisions. So if you're trying to decide what type of job you should take, you can ask

someone, how did you think your decision about your career? Or, for example, when my husband and I were trying to decide whether to move in together after we graduated from the business school, we talked, actually we did research for our final paper in Myra's class and talked to four other couples who had lived together before they got married, three of whom had successful outcomes and were still together in one who wasn't. And we checked in with them about their approach, how they thought about finances, and that helped us inform our own approach. So how you frame the question really matters, and then doing some focus grouping, it sounds like, and going out and testing or checking with those who've been through that before

can be helpful. Certainly. That's really good advice. I need to make sure that I remember that. I find myself often in the moment so impacted by the emotion I'm feeling or the worry or concern I have about the circumstance that I often am not as rational as, as, as I think your framework suggests we should be. And I think that's really helpful to pull myself out from that.

Well, it's human nature. I mean, these are such big decisions. We're so in it. We don't like uncertainty as a species. And so we want to get to the other side of the decision as fast as possible sometimes. But what the framework does is provide an approach that helps you slow down your decision-making and gives you a way to feel more confident that you're covering all the bases before you get to the other side. Yeah, that pacing and perspective, I think, are really.

important, and I appreciate that in the framework you've provided. We've talked about conflict, influence, and negotiation many times on this podcast, but I'd love to get your take on ways to navigate some typical life decisions that many of us face. So, Myra, I'm curious, what guidance would you provide couples considering marriage and or having children? Well, in my experience, when people think about communication, they think about talking. And they think about what they're going to say. And they forget that the other half

of communication is listening quietly and carefully and attentively. And especially for tough decisions, the first step of our framework is clarify. So before you get into the communication, you want to be clear on what it is you want. But then you want to learn what the, the other person wants. And hopefully if you and the person you're communicating with have done this frequently, each of you knows that the first step is to clarify your own beliefs, beliefs, wishes, whatever it is. And if not, as the communication begins, you might say to your partner, you know, I think maybe before we talk about this, it would be good if you went back and thought about

this by yourself. Okay, so now assume both of you have thought. thought. This is like a dance. So now you both come to the dance and you're ready to clasp hands and waltz around the floor. And now you may each change your mind as a result of listening to the other person. So then you have to go back and clarify again. And maybe your partner has to go back and clarify again. Then you come together. So this requires patience. This is an ongoing communication about very, very critical issues. I really like that metaphor of a dance because for a dance to be successful and enjoyable,

both people have to work together. And although I don't have really good rhythm, nor am I a good dancer, you really do have a pace and a timing for things. And I appreciate the advice to be clear on what it is you're asking for and to be patient. I also heard you say you have to be willing to be adaptive and change as you learn more information. Really, really helpful. So, Abby, let's change more to talk about career. How should we be thinking about proposing a major career change with our partner? I'm thinking about things like quitting a job, moving to a new location, taking on more responsibility and more work time.

How should we think about those situations? The first thing to realize is that those decisions, if you're in a relationship, maybe you even have kids or other people living in your household, that your career decisions are going to affect the whole ecosystem. And so it's very important not just to clarify what you want, but to anticipate and think about the impact on the others around. If you're about to take a job that requires extensive travel, that is a huge impact on the other people who will have to pick up the slack when you're not there.

So it's critical to engage in these conversations in a way that provides the space for everyone to voice their concerns, their hopes, their dreams. And I find personally that getting out of the day to day, so actually leaving the house with the piles of laundry and the dishes in the sink is really critical. My husband and I have had really important conversations. Actually, both just made big career changes. And some of our best conversations that led up to these changes, happened on hikes. So we would go out on the weekend. We'd let our kids run ahead of us. I remember one conversation where he had just left his job as the CFO of a tech company, and he was getting

head hunted by recruiters for other CFO jobs. And he said, I don't know. I'm getting these calls. Should I take them? And I think he kind of expected me to say, sure, go for it. But I said, I don't know. Do you want that? It doesn't, you know, based on what you've shared before, it doesn't seem like that's something you'd be too excited about. He said, you're right. I feel dread when I think about taking those calls. And so if he kind of, I guess the lesson there is don't assume that the other person is going to react one way or another. But being in a natural setting, having a space and ability to think broadly about it was so important to us making those big moves for our careers. Well, well, and congratulations to you for making those moves. What I'm hearing

is perspective matters, your perspective, considering everybody else who's engaged or involved in these circumstances. I like the ecosystem model that you talked about, but also being open to somebody else's perspective in that communication, not just expecting they're going to say one thing versus the other. And place matters. I love that you do a lot of your intense communication outdoors on hikes. I think it's hard to be embedded in the environment where you have your day-to-day routine to talk about things that are not day-to-day or routine. So thank you for that. Many of our leaders are managers and leaders and organizations. Abby, what advice do you have for them to better support their employees' work and personal relationship needs?

Well, managers have such a tough job right now. They are balancing a lot. They're managing up, they're managing down, they're managing sideways, and a lot of them are burned out. I think it's really critical for everyone, but particularly managers, to think about the whole person and how what's going on in their life outside of work may affect what they need to be able to do their best work and ask questions, create an environment where they feel comfortable bringing up some of those needs so that you can best create the conditions to support them. And I'll give you an example in my job at the gap, we ran a program called This Way Onward that helped young people with barriers to getting jobs, get a foot in the door, and a way in and a way up into the

workplace. And there was one store manager who hired a young man, and he was late to every shift. And she could have just fired him and said, you know what, this didn't work out. But instead, she got curious. And she said, hey, I've noticed that you've been late to every shift. Can you tell me, a little bit more about what's going on. And he said, you know, my dad works the overnight shift. My mom passed away. And my dad really depends on me to get my younger brother to school. And I have to take two buses to do that.

And then they take the bus back. And then by the time, you know, the last bus leaves, I can't be here for the start of the shift. And she said, oh, so if we shifted your start time a few hours, would that be better? And he said, yes. And then he became her star employee. And so that example illustrates that rather than having a knee-jerk reaction and just saying, you know, this isn't working, getting curious and finding out what's underneath some of the challenges could have a really transformative impact. I think the advice for managers to be curious is really powerful. And the other thing I heard you say is you have to set up an environment where people feel comfortable sharing what's going on in their personal lives in the workplace.

because many of us don't, and it is incumbent on leaders and managers to help people feel safe and comfortable doing that. I wish I, when I was younger, had more managers that did that. Don't we all? Yes, yes. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. If you've ever felt like you're trying to do everything yourself, especially when the stakes are high, you're not alone.

One of the biggest shifts I see in effective leaders growing their organizations comes from focusing on the right things. But that's hard to do when you're stretched thin. You need to be able to delegate some tasks to competent professionals. That's where Upwork can really help. Upwork is a one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across areas like marketing, development, data and analytics, and more. It gives you fast access to specialized talent so you can move quickly, fill key gaps, and scale your work without, taking on full-time overhead. You can browse profiles, review past work, and get support scoping your project so you can hire with confidence. It's a simple way to focus your time where it matters most.

Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upw-w-rk.com. And now back to our conversation. Before we end, I'd like to ask you both the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me. Are you up for that? Sure. Go for it. All right. Here we go.

So, Myra, we'll start with you. If you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be? Listen and tread lightly. We heard you mentioned those a little earlier, and I can see how important they are. So listening is very clear. And that has become more and more of a theme on this podcast about communication is how important listening is. Can you remind us and give us a little more detail on the treading lightly? Well, this example comes from my class, actually.

There was a fellow in the class who had a lot more business experience than most. And we were talking about maternity leave. We hadn't yet come to the world where we talked about paternity. leave, but this was maternity leave. And he was very proud to say that when he was a manager, he encouraged all of his employees who came to him and said they wanted maternity leaves to take the longest maternity leave possible and that he would go to bat for them and get them the longest maternity leave possible. And one of the women in the class who was not shy said, I'm glad you were not my manager. I don't want a long.

maternity leave. I want the shortest maternity leave I can possibly have so I can get back to work as soon as possible. He was shocked. And in the course evaluation, he wrote that this was the most informative part of the class for him. And he realized that he had to listen, that he couldn't just assume that his employees wanted one thing or another. And so I think the listened part is so important. Right. And then what I hear in the tread lightly is you can assert or you can ask, right? And by asking, it's a little more tentative and you can learn more from that. And that's really powerful. So I'd like to move to question two and we'll start with you, Abby. Who is a communicator that you admire and why? Well, I am a big Peloton person. And so for me, Robin Arzon, who is the first instructor

now does a lot more at Peloton is very impactful. She's authentic, she's confident, and she makes me feel really good about myself when she's making me work real hard. So a lot of inspiration and motivation. Of all the people we've talked to and asked this question of nobody has mentioned a Peloton instructor, but they are absolutely motivational. I have done some Peloton, and I absolutely agree. Very good communicators. Mara, can I ask you the same question? Who's a communicator that you admire and why? Well, my answer is probably more common. I admire Oprah. I love to watch her interviews. I think she really listens. And she takes people wherever they're at and makes you understand that it doesn't matter whether you agree with the person you're interviewing or not. You need to help the audience understand where that person's coming from. She does that. She's vulnerable. She talks about herself. She lets you know about herself. She asks great questions. She's my model.

Amazing communicator for sure. In my strategic communication classes, we'll use her as an example. The part there that I want to highlight is she connects the audience to the people she's talking to. And that's really, really important in communication. Thank you. All right. Our third and final question, Abby, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe. I think the conditions are so important to the idea of getting in a place where you are physically able to communicate emotionally, mentally, all of those pieces really matter to set up a good communication. The second I would say is to give grace to the other person that you are talking to. Don't make assumptions. Tread lightly. Give them the benefit of the doubt. And then the third, I think, is to have patience.

These big life decisions don't need to get solved overnight. And it may take a number of conversations. And you might have to come back to the topic because things are getting heated. And that's okay. Good communication doesn't always look pretty and elegant. It can get messy and awkward and uncomfortable. And that's real. But having faith that you'll get to the other side of it together is important to the recipe.

so many important things there. What I took away immediately was this notion of good communication can be, and in some cases should be messy. And from that, you can get some honest, really clear results and the idea of making sure you're in the right place and that you give yourself and your partner grace really, really important. This has been phenomenal. Thank you, Myron, Abby. Your Five C's framework is incredibly helpful. I'm already thinking about how I can apply it here in my work, but also at home. I've got a wife. I've got teenagers. I've got aging parents. This framework can be really helpful, not just for me, but to everybody listening. And I wish you great success on your new book, Money and Love, an intelligent roadmap for life's biggest decisions. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast, from Stanford Graduate School of Business. This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, me, Matt Abraham's. Our music was provided by Floyd Wonder. For more information in episodes, find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And please make sure to subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening.

It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to be. to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast Talk Smart.