Think Like A Game Designer - Jaimie Wolanski — Tough Truths, Retail Realities, and How Games Create Connection (#98)

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

About JaimieJaimie Wolanski has over 20 years of experience in the games industry, with a career spanning major brands and mass-market hits. She’s worked as a sales rep bringing games into stores like Target and Barnes & Noble, and has helped launch titles like Shopkins, Catan, Ticket to Ride, Bananagrams, and Exploding Kittens. She even worked with Justin to bring You Gotta Be Kitten Me to market. In this episode, Jaimie shares what it takes to succeed in a crowded space, how to build teams you can trust, and why knowing when to let go of a project can be just as important as seeing one through. If you care about the business of games—especially the part that happens after the prototype—this conversation is packed with sharp insights and real-world experience. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe

Hello and welcome to Think Like a Game Designer. I'm your host, Justin Gary. In this podcast, I'll be having conversations with brilliant game designers from across the industry with a goal of finding universal principles that anyone can apply in their creative life. You could find episodes and more at think like a game designer.com. In today's episode, I speak with Jamie Wolanski. Jamie has over 20 years of experience in the game's industry working with a ton of major brands as a sales rep, bringing people into mass market stores like Target and Barnes & Noble. She has worked with Shopkins and board games like Caton, Ticket to Ride, Banana Grams, worked with exploding kittens, and even worked with me to get my game. You've got to be kitten me onto Target shelves.

Jamie knows what she's talking about. And she's a really fun guest to have. We have a ton of fun on this episode and share a lot of wisdom. She talks about how to overcome fear and how to decide what your next path is in life and jump from career to career, which she does many times throughout her life and is continuing to do. And she talks about that process. We talk about how to find the right people to surround yourself with, how to know when to keep going, what makes games succeed or not succeed in the modern era. And it has changed more than ever before in the last couple years. How do you get games discovered? How do you get onto target shells? How do you manage the landscape and build something that people are going to want to play and talk about? She even

reveals after some hesitation what she thinks is the recipe for the future of games on target shelves on mass market shelves. So there's a lot of gold in this episode. And I really think you're going to enjoy listening to Jamie Talk as much as I enjoy having conversations with her. So without any further ado, here is Jamie Walansky. Hello and welcome. I am here with Jamie Walanski. Jamie, so great to have you on the podcast. I'm honored to be here. Yeah, you know, it was, it was, I was just saying this before we started recording, but like, you know, our previous guest, Carly from Exploding Kittens just had suggested

you as a guest. And I felt embarrassed immediately that I had not brought you on beforehand because you are such a great person to talk to. We have worked together. You have so much interesting knowledge to share. And so I'm excited to have you here. Long overdue. So I'm so glad you already talked to Carly.

that's amazing. She's just a powerhouse and an amazing person in the industry, and so are you. And it's just, I can't, I'm speechless that I'm here. I can't believe it. Yeah. So, so we are going to dig into all the things, especially when it comes sort of games and mass market and what works and what doesn't and what people should know about it because you are the, you know, the guru on that side. And I speak from personal experience. We would not have gotten our game. You got to be getting me into, into Target without your help. And there's a lot of storytelling there. So tons of insights. But you have like a fascinating. background and arc that I've gotten to learn part of over the years and I want to be able to share

how you got into this world. And for those that are, you know, able to watch this on video, they can see the guitars in the background that you started as a musician before getting into this crazy world of games. So tell me a little bit about that and then we'll get into the nitty gritty of this industry. I can't believe you remembered that about me. That's so funny. I have this, okay, so I was a struggling singer-songwriter in Austin, Texas, moved to Texas from Ohio after college. And I was like, I'm just going to try it. Didn't know a soul. And met a guy who produced a demo for me randomly who got a job selling electric guitars and amplifiers for a little company in Boston called First Act. And he called me up one day and he was like, hey, they're

looking for a salesperson, would you be interested? And I was like, oh, I'm going to be making more money doing that than this. So yeah, I can sell guitars, sure. All right. Let me, let me linger. Let me linger on this a little bit, right? Because the, you know, a lot of this podcast is about the, you know, various creative pursuits and how we are able to lead more fulfilling creative lives, regardless of whether this is gaming or not. And so you just said, well, I don't know anybody. And I just kind of want to try to be a singer-songwriter. And so I'm going to go to Austin and try that. that is something that would like terrify most people and very few people will take that leap like what made you do that what was that experience like before you then make the transition out of it

like bring me there a little bit tell me that story okay Justin I am a creative stuck in a left brain body I am I understand that I am a Capricorn enneagram three a high achiever high energy I am I am I'm like a goat, climb, climb, climb. If I could write a book about my life, it would be my Forrest Gump life because I could tell you a million stories of random moments where you would just go, what, you karaokeed with Reese Witherspoon at Karen Elson's house? Say what? Just random stories like that. And I moved to Europe when I was in college. I studied and nothing. I everything that I do terrifies me.

And I think part of the hardest part about getting older is I'm not as scared because I've failed before and I've done so many things. But I've always known that I've needed to pursue creativity in some way. My Instagram handle is undercover hippie, Nashville undercover hippie because it used to be that you couldn't be creative and a business person or an intellectual with out and being creative. And I think I've always leaned into that. Or maybe it was a part of me denying how Capricorn and overachiever and Neagram

3 I am. But I've always felt that life is so short. And it's you, you just have to just on a swing and a, on a wing in a prayer, just go for it and figure out. I don't know. I think that from somebody who,

who's never known what I've wanted to do, I think I had to figure out a path of what don't I want to do. I had to just go, I'm going to try this. I'm going to work at a video production company. Nope, hated that. I'm going to work at a nonprofit. Nope, absolutely hated that. Not good at it either.

I can't believe that I lasted more than a month at that place. And you just move and you follow the golden thread and you say, I think you just follow the golden thread until you feel like everything in your life aligns. And when it doesn't anymore, you shift to a different, a different path, I think. I might be there now. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

Well, no, that's and that's, and that's, God, there's, I mean, there's so much wisdom in that and everything that you just said. Like, I want to, I want to just like underscore some things because I do, I believe this stuff at the core of my being, but it took me a lot longer to learn a lot of these things, I think that it took you. And it's hard when people hear it, right? The, what you said is like, I don't, it's not necessarily figure out what I want to do. would figure out what I don't want to do.

I think that's so right, that you have to try things before you know. There's a vision of like, oh, what would it be like to be a singer songwriter? That seems cool. I see somebody on TV performing. That looks awesome.

And you're like getting to the realities of the day to day. You're like, actually, this isn't that awesome. Maybe something else. And the new door opens up that you couldn't have foreseen before, in this case, the sales job,

which we'll get to in a bit. And then that moves you there. And then the willingness to let go of something when it's no longer serving you and then move to the next thing is another is another big issue for people like very hard for people to do once I said oh this was I did it I made it I'm in the thing and then it suddenly isn't isn't you anymore people feel trapped by their own choices of the past it's like somebody you know gives you like a gift like past you gave you a gift that you don't want like a like a fruit cake and you're like ah do I have to eat the fruit cake no you don't you don't have

to eat it you can say thank you for this previous gift of this career let me move on to the next thing And a lot of people just have trouble with that. And you said that you, you know, you also drop this other little pearl of like, oh, you know, it's weird as I get older. I'm just not afraid of things anywhere because I failed so many times. And like, I think that's like the main skill of like, you know, maturity or, you know, going through this enough. It's like, yeah, I still fail and I still don't know what I'm doing.

But I'm like so much more comfortable with that than I ever was. So it just makes me, you know, in many ways it's superpower that you develop. but but you're your your you're unique i think one of the ways i've i've seen you be unique is like you're you're you're you had this fearlessness early even when you know you're making these jumps was that do you think that did that come from your parents did that just come from innate like i always look at like how could somebody develop this if they're like hearing this they're like oh i can never do that oh my goodness this is crazy it's such a great question and ironically i just went home to ohio and visited my small town and my mom and my stepdad

and my college, my university, I haven't been back in 20 plus years. I took my husband and kids for the first time. It all came flooding back. And I took a picture, I'll send you this picture, of me in front of my childhood home. And I always tell this story to my kids and my husband. I remember being eight years old, riding my Blue Angel bike with the banana seat, and going down the sidewalk in every bump, you know how they were tar bumps, the sidewalk and I in saying in my head, I got to get out of here, I got to get out of here,

I got to get out of here. And years old, I was like, Ohio is not for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know I was always destined for bigger things. I don't know if it was encouraged in me. I don't think it was. I just remember feeling like I had a lot to do in this lifetime. And sometimes even now, I'm like when I'm overwhelmed with how big my life is and it's so

beautiful in so many ways. I think, why did I aim that big? I'm a big manifester. So I have to be careful with what I write down, what I think, because I have a farm outside of Nashville with 30 plus animals, mouths to feed, and an Airbnb. And it's like I've curated this space so I can give other people this retreat from the rest of the world and calm down and be in nature. and I'm the one who needs it most. But I've built, it's like I can't wait until the time in my life where that's my ending, where I wake up and I feed the chickens and I shovel manure. And that's my goal of the day instead of trying to hold all these balls in the air.

But at the same time, I think I was built for this. Yeah, yeah. My immediate reaction from knowing you was just to push back on that, right? because like you don't you could have that right you you could if you wanted to you could you could you could have that right now and you and you don't you don't make that choice because you enjoy like it's from again from my my read of it you you enjoy the struggle you enjoy pushing and supporting other people right and help it like you come alive by bringing other people's dreams to life right um you to hit the nail on the head that is why I do what I do it's not for a lot of people are

reps because they want to make a ton of money or they want a certain reputation or they just can't do anything other than sales. My greatest joy is elevating game makers, business owners, anyone in the industry who has a consumer product to sell when I know that Target is ready for them or any kind of retailers ready for them, I know the formula. I know how to get them win. And watching people I always think of Satish Palala Marti from North Star Games way back in the day, Him and Dominic. I remember how much getting wits and wagers into Target changed their lives. And unfortunately for Satish, it was a short one.

But I think of him all the time as a motivator of, no, I helped change his life. There's nothing better. Yeah, yeah. And people can listen to the previous. his episode with Dominic to hear more of that story from their side. So he's, he's been a guest and been a long-time friend as well. And so this is great because I can, you know, most of the time, not to disparage the industry, but the people who are the sales, people and the reps, they say things like would you say, but really, they're out for their own, their own interest. They are, they're very mercenary. And I know from working, that's not true. What you're saying is, you know, it is true. It's how you come across. It's how you actually, actually are. So let's let's let's let's let's give people a little bit more frame here because, you know, we talked about being a rep and, you know, and doing sales like, what, what do you say you do here? How do you describe the role of a rep? Like, I may not, it's not going to be familiar to a lot of people. So let's just frame that that job and how you see yourself and how you see the industry. And then we'll, we'll jump around to a few different places from there.

Sure. So what I do, I'm basically the middle person between a product and a brand and mostly target. Most of my business is at Target, we do a ton of business with Barnes and Noble as well. And I broker the relationship. I sell the product in and then I manage productivity. We provide all of the sales data behind it. We provide promotional strategies. It's basically year-round selling for your item and your brand internally with Target because I have day-to-day contact with most of the buyers, especially in the TWA department. And when I hear of opportunities, I can kind of pick up the bat phone and say, hey, I have this opportunity or, hey, you might want to consider going down this route or considering this trend for something in the year following. Yeah.

Yeah. And generally speaking, like as a publisher or somebody with a game or product, like you can't really do this without a rep the way that things are structured. It's pretty much impossible in my experience. Is that generally right? Like you have, they just, they're not interested even talking to us. That's so true. They're so overwhelmed by the big guys. And the big guys, I mean, the big, the Hasbro's and Metallos and spin masters of the world.

I will say it's getting harder and harder for what we call one item vendors to get placed in mass retail. And that's how I met you through, you know, these distributors. And the distributors. I unfortunately held to curate that model about, I don't know, it's probably almost 20 years ago, because games like bananagrams and quirkle and, you know, game-changing games weren't able to get placement at Target because they had a mandate to not set up one-item vendors. They just couldn't, no one would understand the target systems. The buyer didn't have a chance to fill 400 slots on the shelf with, you know, one Z, Tuesdays when they could pretty much do it with all of the big game companies.

And so we worked with one in particular, one distributor in particular to just kind of create that assortment. And it changed the game as the beginning of mass retail kind of becoming a little bit more of a hobby store in the games apartment. Yeah. And it's, and it's, so it's one of these things like, you know, as a, it's always like this dream as a small publisher to get your product into mass market. and, you know, things like Target and Walmart, et cetera.

And it's a, it's a fascinating and challenging road. And it's changed so much, right? So as you mentioned, like, you know, the 20 years ago or so, this kind of model started to evolve where, you know, distributors and reps and, you know, sort of some conglomerate forces could help you get through and, and you could, they could potentially find a product that's a, you know, diamond in the rough that could then get placed. And nowadays, it's, it doesn't seem like that's possible anymore or even, necessarily even desirable anymore, right?

In that really you've got to be able to get massive sales direct to consumer through things like Amazon before you'll even get considered for moving into something like mass. Like the whole market has changed. I even see this in the Hobby Channel too, right? It used to be when I first launched ascension now 15 years ago, right? We're in the middle of our 15 year anniversary, which is I went to Gamma, which was a distributor and retailer show.

I showed them my game and I showed it to retail and distribution. They loved the game. They were super excited about it. That builds buzz and they were starting to place orders. And then I showed it off at GenCon. And by then it was already sold out and people had it. And the distributors got excited. They told their stores. The stores got excited. They got players to buy it. And the players then, you know, spread it from there. That just does not happen anymore for my experience. And it's always the other way around. That it's now there are players that get excited about a product because you've somehow gotten it to them through whatever social media conventions, direct sales on Amazon and something. And then, that filters back in through the other, it goes the other way that now the stores want it, so they talk to the distributors, distributors talk to you. It sounds like the same sort of thing is happening in mass market. So is that aligned with your vision of this?

Are there other things that like, you know, how is the market trending in your experience? Yeah, it's never changed faster than in the last three years. And I would say, I worked really hard to protect target exclusives up until about two or three years ago

when it was very obvious to me that it was a numbers game and they were the target buyers were just looking at gaining market share and winning. And so the only way to do that was to look at the top 10 games on Amazon. And unfortunately, that comes at a cost. There is no exclusive option. Honestly, if I could go back and rewind time, I think Ascension, the exclusive version of ascension was what target should have taken. Because I think that would have been marketable.

And I think we went too obvious with you got to be kidding. Which, I mean, I just, again, there's a formula with different genres of games. Unfortunately, I think TikTok and social media has kind of dumbed us down as consumers. I think time will tell if those games have staying power, my gut's telling me let's write this down right now three years from now let's talk because my gut is telling me that most of these titles will not be on shelves or even available because most of the top sellers on TikTok they're it just feels like um they're they're going after the low hanging fruit of society and the quick purchase and it's

a little offensive to gamers. Yeah, yeah. And so it's a tricky thing, right? And obviously it's easier to kind of Monday morning quarterback than is to make decisions in the moment. But, you know, I mean, I think we made a great game with We Got to Be Kitten Me. I think it's got a kittens, you know, obviously kittens are going to, we know that those sell people like cats. And so we went, went that space. They have stickers.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah, we made an exclusive version for Target that you could have stickers with your own pets. on the cards. It was a great, it was a great hook. And, you know, I also think that just because something, you know, we were on target, we sold for, you know, it was in there for a year. At the end, because of how much we invested in the marketing and that specific thing, you know, we didn't make a ton of money off of it. It didn't end up, you know, I think it's, it got pulled from shells recently. So it's not, it didn't work in the sense that we wanted it

to work. But just because something didn't work doesn't mean it was a bad decision at the time. No. And that's another thing that, Pia. That is absolutely. Also, also, it doesn't mean that it's not going to work two or three years from now. Right. I think I encourage any game company with a deep catalog of games where even if you tried it 10 years ago, two years ago, if it's a decent game, it will have legs. I think one of the problems with mass retail right now in general is that we don't give an item, especially a new game on the shelf, enough time to establish itself.

on the shelf because, I mean, I can give you a list of a dozen games that we've launched and didn't really sell to the target's buyer standards in the last couple of years that are excellent games. And when I play them now, they're like, oh, where can I get this? Oh, well, Amazon or D to C direct on their website because you can't buy it anywhere. A game needs time to justate. And especially at mass retail, which is generally now the last place people are buying games, I mean, unless you're just buying headbands or uno. And how do you get that word of mouth? I mean, I still believe the best marketing for board games in general is evergreen word

of mouth. Yeah. No, and that's, and that's, I believe that it's also kind of the cliched true thing, but it's also easier said than done. Right. So to some degree, it's like, listen, product is great product is the best marketing. Right. That's just true.

Right. Like so many times, and I fall into this trap myself, I'm like, man, if only we had better marketing or if only were better at marketing or if we had more budget for marketing or whatever, then this would have done fine. And if I'm honest with myself, I'm like, eh, actually, that product could have been better. And if it was, then the marketing would have been easier. And, you know, so there's some absolute fundamental truth in that. But I also think that, you know, you've got to think about what the available channels for promotion are and like, how do you get that started? Because a great game is not, it is necessary

for this to succeed. It is not sufficient for it to succeed. Right. You need, you do need more. And when I think about the, you know, TikTokification of our, of our, of the marketing channels, like some of that does favor, you know, companies like exploding kittens where that is like their bread and butter. Like they are so good at making those marketing videos. And they will actually filter products. I talked with Alon about this in a previous podcast. Well, they will like, the marketing team has full veto power over their products. Like it is, if I can't make a viral video on it, we're not making it. Right. And that's like crazy to me. This is not how I think, but maybe it should be, right? Or maybe there's other, for variations of this, you know, and how can someone who wants to make, you know, a meteor game or something that doesn't fit into a, you know, 30 second bite in the same way? Like, how do, how does that, how do you get to the place where word of mouth is spread?

How do you get to the place where those things can grow? And I don't know if you have an answer to it, but I, I've always trying to think about how, you know, somebody who's not necessarily a giant behemoth or, you know, super great at making viral videos can still get notice in a marketplace like this. Well, I think of games like the one that's popping up in my head right now is magical athlete. Came out of nowhere. It's new.

It's colorful. The art is very retro electric company throwback for me and throwback for kids of the 80s. has a board. And it's popping up on hobby stores, TikToks, which I am obsessed with. I can't get my hands on it and I really want to because I think it's a game my kids would actually play it with me. That's not Uno or Skyjo. And I think I'm going to say, what I'm going to say is I think the retailers and the buyers need to say. step up a little bit and partner with the creators and the inventors. And they have to have a gut instinct or an intuition on what to hold on to and what has legs if they give it another chance.

And some do and some don't. And mass retail buyers rotate every two, three years. And so that's why I say bring it back if it didn't work before because you might have a different. creative support from that side. And I think that's where a shelf space is incredibly valuable. They obviously have numbers to make. But if you believe in something, you can partner on figuring out a way to have it, have legs. Yeah. So I think, you know, whatever, tenacity is both my superpower and my curse, right? Like, I mean, I have not only, you know, Ascension succeeded and worked on it for 15 years. I've still been building the game SoulForge in its new form, SoulForge Fusion with Richard Garfield for 14 years. I've got, you know, my projects,

I don't let them die, whether they showed or shouldn't, you know, and, you know, even you got to be kidding me, came through, came through and re-invigorated it as the target form. There's all of these different things. So I think that's, it is a valuable piece for anybody that's out there, right? Don't, but I always, there's, you know, there's a, you get two narratives that are conflict, right? One is, you know, don't give up, fight for what you believe in, like keep going. Like don't,

you know, the success is, you know, whatever, you know, JK Rowling got rejected a 999 times. And the thousands of times she got, became Harry Potter.

And there's a million of these stories like this, right? And but then there's another side that's like, hey, the universe is giving you feedback. The world is giving you feedback. This isn't working. You should pivot and change to something else. And so it's always one of those questions I ask when we give this narrative.

Like, how do you know the difference? How do you know when the universe is telling you, hey, shift here versus persist? Also, what's amazing about board games? Because you really could, you, or I'm going to say, I'm going to broaden this to just consumer products in general. The items that you think are absolute home runs that are going to just change the game, sometimes are the absolute worst thing you sell into retail.

And you could bet everything on. and you're like, what, every, they were totally set up to be the most incredible, whatever. And then the items that you're like, I mean, here's a great example. Shopkins from Moose Toys, nobody wanted to buy Shopkins. I had to, I was representing Moose Toys at the time. They were just newly into Target. And the buyer, who's now a rep, she's now on this side of the world. The buyer said, no, I don't want that.

I want this. activity thing. And I said, well, you can't have this kid's activity toy unless you make half of the N-CAP Hopkins. And she was like, okay, fine. It launched. It was sold out. I had my first daughter. I remember being in the hospital, like, just giving birth and Shopkins is the number one toy. And I was like, of course. And here I am on maternity leave and I can't even enjoy it. And it was, I mean, it made Moose toys who, it was a billion dollar property and had legs. like seven years. So you just don't know. You can't, but that's where your partners come in and help elevate you. But you have, this is where it's so important to work with the right people.

You have to find the people that have, that are aligned with you ethically and financially and have your back through those times. And if you know that you're not going to bat a thousand, it's okay. It doesn't. The gut punches. don't matter as much when, or they don't hurt as much. And let me tell you that's the hardest part about what I do are the gut punches. It's every day. It's from my vendors. It's from my buyers.

It's a gut punch every day. And after a really hard day, I'm like, why am I, why do I do this to myself? Why? It's because I care and probably my superpower and my greatest, I mean, detriment is I care too much. I really do. But at the end of the day, if that's my fatal flaw, who cares? Yeah. There are worse. Listen, it is true that your greatest strength is always your greatest weakness as well. All right. And you're going to choose. This is who I am. This is what I'm going to lean into.

And so I think, you know, in a sense, your answer, your answer shift a little bit from my question. but I actually think there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a deeper way that it directly answers it, which is, it's really about finding the right people, right? If like, how do I know if this is something I should persist in or not? And it's, I think part of that answer, if I'm hearing you correctly, is like, you've got, you're surrounding yourself with people who you trust who can help you determine that, right, that are going to stick by you, one. Two, that even if you're wrong, if you're surrounding yourself with the right people,

then that's still winning, right? You're eventually going to win because, you know, that's the, that's the real secret to it. And, and I think that that makes sense to me. And it also brings to mind one of my favorite Jeff Bezos comments about this, which is that, you know, how do you know when to give up on a project? Because Amazon, obviously, you know, insanely successful, warped the whole world in market in ways, you know, we've already started talking about. But also, they've had a million had failed projects. I mean, they had the fire phone. They had like a bunch of stuff that they've done that just has not worked at all. And so, you know, how does he decide to do this? And he's like, honestly, if there's someone who is a, someone who I respect in the organization who still believes

in it, we'll keep going. That's full stop. Like, it's a, it's a person that I, is one of my people. And they say, we believe it. Even if I don't, I'm going to disagree and commit and I'm going to go forward and, you know, we'll keep supporting until they, that last last person that really is like, you know, a player and someone who's getting things done says, all right, I give up, we're going to keep doing it. And so that is really another way to say, like, if you've got the right people, then, and somebody that believes in it. And that person could be you, then it's right to keep going and keep pushing. And that's, I think, a pretty powerful answer if I'm, if I'm. That is exactly. I have to think that game design, because it's raw and it's vulnerable,

I have to think it's a lot like songwriting. and where you're collaborating and you might be sitting in your room and you're like, I have it. And you write a riff or you write lyrics and you go into that co-write, a co-creator session and you're kind of embarrassed. And one writer might have a completely different opinion or reaction to your heart than another. And I think it really is about, I think that human beings are designed to have an intuition, whether we want to listen to it or not, that you can feel, that you can, you know whether it's right or not.

Yeah. I don't know. And have you ever worked with someone who was your competitor in a lot of ways? And you ended up collaborating and you were stronger together or you learned more by kind of letting your guard down? countless times like countless times like it's there are people who were like like sworn enemies like we were very competitive and like a little hostile who I now work with and we do awesome stuff together and it was it's yes 100% how what a is there any better lesson in life you know who taught me that and not by not on purpose at all was carly McGinnis

When she exploded on the scene, no pun intended. I, she, what I loved most about her is that she was new in gaming. And I'd already been doing it for 10 years, 10, 15 years. And she was kind to everyone. No one was her competitor. They were learning from each other. And she had no problem asking questions to anyone in the room. And I was like, you can't talk to that person.

we're competing against them for shell space. She was like, who cares? We're all in it together. We're all going to win. It all evens out in the end. And it took me two or three years to kind of unlearn that bad habit and that protective outer shell that I had, but it has served me so well. Yeah.

Yep. No, I think that's right. And I don't, you know, maybe somebody out there will come back at me for saying this, but I don't think I really have enemies anymore. Not in that sense, right? I just don't. You know, I root for, you know, everybody to do well. I'm going to strive and fight and play.

Just the same way I play a game, right? I'm going to play a game to win. But you're not my enemy because I'm competing against you. We're having fun. That's the whole point. And that's how I view business as well. Yes, that's so good. And I think that we're as we're going into the age of Aquarius, I'm going to get,

Wu, undercover hippie on you. It is about everyone winning. It's about lifting up the collective. It's not about one or two people at the top. those people will fail and fall hard. It's going to happen. So, I mean, this is just, it's collaborate and elevate. Yeah.

Collaborate and elevate is great. I think in the, you know, we've, we've, we've hit on many aspects of why surrounding yourself with the right people and, you know, being the kind of person that attracts those people and is open to that kind of collaboration is so critical, not just to like success in business, but just to like happiness and fulfillment in life, right? Like this is it. Like we are here to serve other people.

and we are fulfilled when we are doing that. Like if you're out there and you're listening to this and you're depressed or you're feeling bad about your life, do something for somebody else. Go like hold the door open for somebody. Buy Starbucks for the person behind you in line. Go, you know, do some. Those are like trivial things or go, you know, go help out and help out with somebody that's doing worse than you.

You will feel better right away. Like amazingly so. Like this is like. I needed to hear that today. I've been really kind of down in the dumps. There's something about the time change and I just kind of want to go to bed at 7 o'clock every night. And I, you know, you have the, even though I have this, the most beautiful life ever, sometimes you just go, oh, I'm such a loser, or you just start

negative self-talk. And I needed to hear that. And there's, you know, my kids and I just adopted some kids for Christmas gifts to donate to. And we all went shopping and filled up bags for them. And they had so much fun. And that is what it's about. It's like, get out of your head. Yep. we're so puny. Yeah. Listen, it's easy to fall into these traps, right? We've been programmed by many, many thousands of years of evolution to be constantly comparing

ourselves. And if you're down from where you perceived yourself yesterday or you've got, you know, we quickly adapt to the norms of our lives. And, you know, we've got, you know, one of the most powerful experiences I ever had is I went down to do a home build down in Mexico. And, you know, we were, it was something I was like, oh, I should probably do this. I felt like I should be the kind of person that does this. And I went down and, you know, to see the families that were living two hours from where I lived in, in pure luxury, that were

living on dirt and that was able to, over the course of a weekend, helped to build a home and help to bring them into a real home and transform their lives. I stole from them. I got so much value out of that experience. It wasn't about what I gave to them. I got so much value. I started doing it every quarter for many years. And I actually, The only reason we stopped was in COVID. We couldn't do it anymore. But I've actually now I'm sponsoring a new build and I'll be put that we're going out in May for my birthday. We're going to build a home and the Stoneblay team.

A bunch of us are going to come down and do it like getting that started again. And it just lit me up as soon as I decided to do it and a bunch of, you know, it is. So, you know, we're getting a little bit, a little bit off topic here, but, but hopefully. We are going to bring it back. Yeah. This is why I love game designers and board games. This is why I love selling board games. because we are creating experiences and the opportunity to commune together and share humanity

together, I don't see that that is ever going to go out of style. And the best thing we can do is share that gift with others. What a gift. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And the things that, you know, when I think about what it is with my job is like very much it is about that building community, like providing that opportunity for people to gather around the table together and bond with their family to come to conventions and play

and, you know, compete with other people and create entire communities around. I mean, you know, my career started because of my pro magic playing background. And it wasn't about the money or even the game. It was about the people. Like the friendships like literally, just today, as we're recording this, I'll just give him a shout out, Jason Zela, who's somebody I met and I've known in the Magic Pro Door for over 28 years now, something like that. He celebrated his 10-year anniversary with my company today.

And just amazing human being to get to grow together and have those friends. And we would never have, you know, that friendship formed because of magic. And today we get to now create these experiences that bring and create the new friendships out there. So it is exactly that journey. Again, more of we have small lives. We're affecting, we employ a small amount of people respective to a publicly traded company or whatever. But we are making massive impact. to, and they're making massive impacts to our lives, to be able to, I just think it's such a gift.

I think it's so cool. Yeah, and the, you know, whatever, the millions of people around the world that play my, you know, my games. Maybe it's not the hundreds of millions I want to get it to, but it's still like a lot of people that have impacted. And when I have a father and daughter that come meet me at Jen Con and say, hey, we've bonded over playing Ascension. And, you know, she's like 11, which means she wasn't even born when I made Ascension.

Like, that's so cool. Like, that's the stuff that lights me up. It stands the test of time. That's so cool. So to get away a little bit from the woo-woo, we're all, we're all friends here. We all love each other. I'm sure we'll get back to it. But like, no, I want to, I want to say because we've talked so much about the importance

of people, surrounding yourself with the right people, bringing those people together. Like, how do you find those people? How do you know and how do you get to those people? Because that's, you know, the ones who are going to stand by you when, you know, the shit hits the fan, for lack of a better term, the ones we're going to get, you know, be supportive of you, but also give it to you straight when you're, you know, you're off track. the ones who you need to rely on, like, how do you build those connections? What is it that creates that thing, which we both agree is the most important to your long-term success and happiness and

well-being? I don't know if it's any different than just looking for a job or being curious about a new hobby. I think you ask around for referrals. And I think you just start saying, here's my goal. Here's what I'd like to do. I don't know when I'm going to do it. Do you know anyone I can talk to. And I probably give my time more than I should to game designers or people that have a game. I mean, after 2020, everybody invented a game. Everyone invented a game. I mean, that was pretty fun. Not fun. But lots of conversations. But you ask around. And if you already have a game that you think is ready for retail and you want to send it to the buyer, ask the buyer who they would recommend partnering with, ask who they enjoy working with because,

or have three recommendations, but who's your top glowing recommendation who's going to give you the time? And then start having those Zoom chats and coffee talks and explaining. And you'll know, I think you'll know from those conversations. Yeah, yeah, I think that's good advice. And I think, you know, would would break it back to the advice that you kind of gave on, on career finding, which is, you know, find the ones that you don't want, right? Like, you will encounter plenty of people for whom they seem like they might be a good fit. And you learn very quickly that they are not. And then through that filtering process.

Yeah, walk around gamma for one day and say, here's my goal. Who should I not talk to and who should I talk to? and you'll have a list and you'll know. You'll know, exactly. Yeah, and my experience on this one also is like, you probably can relate to this because you talked about how, you know, as you get older, you're sort of more immune, not immune to failure, but, you know,

your emotional regulation around failure gets better because I've done it so many times that it's not going to disfaze me. And I think the same, it becomes a really powerful filter for the people that you know you can trust, right? Like, so, for example, I went and I worked at Upper deck before I started my own company. And during the window that we were there, man, things went real south, right? The, you know, lawsuits and things falling apart. And, you know, I described the owner as a bond villain of being both evil and incompetent and all these things started happening.

And then you really got to see people's true colors, right? Because there were some people who were just like, cover my ass, like, whatever I need to do to keep my job. Like, I don't care. And there's other people like, no, I care about the product. I'm going to be honest with you. We're going to get this on we're going to figure it out. Like we care about it. And those are the people who when I quit and start my own company are the first ones I hired because I knew that they could be relied on.

And you just don't know. It's easy to be, you know, friendly and nice and when everything's going well and everybody's making money and everything's fine. It's the people, in many ways, I'm grateful for the times where things have gone wrong, you know, because the people that I knew I could count on then, I know for sure I could count on again.

So it really makes a big difference. It really does. And you, you, I've signed contracts with vendors that didn't feel good. And I knew the minute I signed, I was like, I really don't want to work with them. My gut's screaming at me. And I can, I just picture the day that contract ends or I've resigned from major national brands because they brought in a new CEO who couldn't handle whatever it was. I know in that case, it was a female, a strong female, owning the target business, could not handle it. And I resigned. And I still watch, I brought this brand back

from the dead on the target shelf and I have to watch it grow every day going, should I have done that? Because he ended up getting fired. But I did, I do feel good about it because that's my integrity. I get to lay my head down on my pillow at night. And now I know when I have that Ugi feeling, I'm not even sending them a contract. I'm just saying I don't align with these people. It's not it doesn't matter if we all make gobs of money. It's not good. It's not not worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And as as as you know, you sort of describe yourself as you know, kind of creative undercover hippie with a left brain, right? And you speak to this. The, you know, intuition can can come across as like woo-woo and fuzzy, but it is, it is not. Like it is there as a, I have, I have,

Over time, both cultivated my ability to hear and listen to my intuition and the, you know, creating space for that to come up. Right. And so for those of the left-brained analytical folk out there like me that, that maybe are feeling a little bit allergic to this. Like, just think of it as like your brain perceives and takes in so much more information than you're consciously perceiving. Like we know this for a fact.

There's plenty of data to support it. And you can't always process it in a conscious way. but your body and the rest of your, your intuition does. And so there'll be, it'll come up in feelings and, you know, a kind of sense that you,

if you, if you pause and give it space to listen to, it can tell you, hey, this isn't right. This isn't working. And then knowing when and cultivating that really becomes something that is not easy to do,

but once you do, it really can empower a lot of, of important choices that move you in the right direction, which it sounds like you have, especially when it comes to making these big, big decisions like, hey, I'm very successful in this business and this role and I'm going to leave it. Or there's a penitative deal and I'm not going to sign it.

And that's a hard choice to make. It is, but it always works out in the end. And I think that's where, again, when you fail so many times, you just trust. So for those that are that are out there that are newer in the space that are looking for their opportunity to fail, the the the the the the you know let's say you know you have a lot of conversations with game designers who want to say hey I want to you know I want to get my game to target I want to be you know get get this this next chapter I want to move this forward what what advice do you give you know kind of generally and then maybe we'll we'll dig into some specifics yeah so reach out to someone

like me have a quick conversation and understand what you want from your game. Do you want to create a game and license it to a publisher that already has established vendor numbers and marketing ties and understands the business? Do you want to start with one game and grow it into an empire? I think of Dolphin Hat games with Taco Cat Go Cheese Pizza. They were Taco Cat for many, many years and go through a distributor until they decided, thought to thoughtfully expand and then grow your company. Do you want this to be a legacy company that your kids can take over? Or do you want to make a quick buck and sell it in five to six years?

The path to market is all very different based on what your goals are. But if you just have a good game that you love, it's probably not enough. to survive the sharks that are mass retail. And I say that, I wouldn't have said that five or six years ago, but I say that now as retailers are struggling, as the world around commerce seems to be shifting, it's unpredictable right now. So you really have to believe in something.

And again, align with people that will support you through the end. And sometimes it's okay to make an amazing game and license it out and make mailbox money for the next five years. Because someone else is helping push it for you. If you don't have gas in the tank to figure it out and do yourself, don't worry about it. Yeah. No, as someone who went through the process of starting a company and launching a bunch of products, I will tell you that like, if you don't need to do this, don't do this.

Like go, go license your games and just work on games. Like my life could be way, you know, easier if I just made the games and licensed them. And, you know, I like the challenge and I like the stuff that I get to do here. But like, it is a, it is, uh, part of that is my, you know, potential control freak, uh, nature that I want to have all the details and move everything forward. Uh, but if you don't have that, you don't need to do that, I definitely advise people to, to, you know, work with another partner, especially at first, right, just to even get your feet wet and like learn the ropes, like having somebody else that knows that and is taking

some of that burden off of you is, is fantastic. Um, so I definitely agree there. And I think the other thing that I heard you say that is worth emphasizing, is like, you know, knowing what your real goals are is so important, right? Because if you're just chasing the like, I, oh, I should have this on a target shelf. It's like, why? Why do you want that? Like, what is it that is it? What is it that you actually really want here? And if it's, you know, I want something a game I'm proud of that's on store shelves. Okay, that's one thing. If it's I want to be able to spend my life, I want to have a career making games, it's another thing. If it's actually,

I really just want something that's really cool that my friends and I can play. Like, that's a totally different thing. And it's totally valid. Right. Like, and if you confuse one goal for the other, you start chasing the wrong goal and you spend a lot of time and resources moving down that path when you realize what you actually wanted to something else, you know, then you're going to end up, you know, whatever. Sometimes that's the only way to learn the lesson. But if you can avoid that by really just being true to yourself, it's going to make a big difference. Yeah, I agree.

And I respect the people with healthy boundaries. The Stonemeier, you know, Jamie Segmire, he has very clear like, no, I'm not doing that. and it's frustrating as it is for me sometimes from the mass retail, but we could sell this many games. I respect that. And it's probably playing the long game. And I like that. Yeah.

Yeah, I think. So what is it then that you're looking for in the people that you would choose to work with? So you've been very generous with your time and you said people can reach out to you. But if it's someone that's like, you know, this is like very likely to be a home run for you as a partner and someone you think you could sell in. What are the either traits of the person or the game or the, you know, know, it's a situation like what does you look like nowadays? That's maybe different than it was five

years ago. Yeah. I mean, so I wish I could say hardcore strategy gamers reach out to me. I would say that's an absolute no unless it's a title that has legs and has history that we can create something exclusive and special and we can find 30,000 individual people to go into a target store and buy that exclusive version because it has a unique component, that would be tough for me. I think someone who already has their foot in the door with hobby, I think that's huge. Even though that doesn't necessarily dictate success, it does, it's a start and it shows that you understand retail in general and goals. Someone, oh, here's what I can do something with.

I am looking for, I have in my mind, and this is why I go to Essen every year in Nuremberg, I'm a trend spotter. I'm just like, I'm trying to predict what is going to be new next. I am looking for the next, just absolute new game mechanic that is accessible for multi-generational people and that mass reich tailors could get behind that everyone no one can stop talking about the game and I would say again I haven't played magical athlete yet I feel like that might be one but the last time I had that feeling was with code names and that's plus years and I I I'm like where they can you can come out of anywhere but if you have a new game mechanic that no one else is thought of, bring it to me

and I'll connect you with the right people and we'll bring it to life. That's what's so exciting and I will say I don't even know if I should give this away. I'm going to hold that to myself but I'll tell you after. I mean I just I have a gut instinct of what the future of mass retail gaming

is. Yeah. And I will say I think card games, the card game mechanic over. Just please stop with the card games like just stop. There are too many. It's oversaturated.

Like, come on. Yeah. There are a lot of card games. As someone who makes a lot of card games, there's a lot of card games. I agree with that. I know.

Well, the party game, the adult party game, the 17 plus party games, stop it. Can we just, like, aim a little higher?

No, I agree. There's definitely an oversaturation there. And I think that there's a, yeah, I mean, it's, it's always,

you know, I've had a, a lot of on the podcast as well talking about code names and the creation of that is just is amazing. But it's everybody, it's the dream everybody has where you want like it's, and I'll even, you know, even speaking for myself, like I've done a lot of products where I see a cool game mechanic out there and I'm like, I could execute that better. Being able to create something that's a new mechanic that nobody's seen before, very, very difficult, very difficult and definitely fun, fun to pursue, but but not easy, not easy to find a nail.

I have a feeling you're going to figure it out in Malaysia. And I did decide I will share this with you. Oh, okay. Here we go. Exclusive. I think this has been in my brain for the last probably six to 12 months. And I'm more convinced than ever that there is a need and a desire for throwback game play experiences with a classic game board and mover pieces. and the simpler, the better.

I mean, I miss that personally. I think there's a way to incorporate more components. And we've gotten away from that from an environmental perspective. Why bother when you can do it all with cards? I agree wholeheartedly. But I think that if you can make a board game feel like an experience again, like that monopoly feeling when you're first opening it. Yeah.

So I do have a product like this, but that one I will not share on the air because it's not ready for on air share, but I do have another part. Yeah, we'll talk later about that. But there are some really cool. Well, and so to speak more broadly, you know, I think, you know,

something I've often thought about when it comes to making games is like, is table presence, right? Like this idea of like, what does it feel like and look like I see this thing on the table. And will that get my attention? And what does that evoke for me emotionally? At the end of the day, all we're creating is games are a form of art.

And we're trying to create emotions in our players and the people who see it. And so I think when you say classic board, I think not just like, hey, there's something that feels familiar here. It makes it feel accessible. I think nostalgia is a massive driver nowadays. There's tons of nostalgia problems. products and people like that that that that that want that experience. So I think all of those are our are actually, you know,

are important trends. And I, I always when I, when I, I wrestle with the, you know, the past and the future and how do I bring them together, right? Like I think I love being at the forefront of technology, right? With SoulForge Fusion,

we built digitally printed cards that were unique and could be scanned into an online account. And I've tried to, you know, wrestle that. I've been playing around with what are ways you could like build some kind of AI variance into a game. and funky stuff like that.

Like, you know, I love the different ends of the spectrum, I think, are great areas to explore. And like, how do you take something that feels classic and, you know, wholesome and familiar and then give it that new twist that nobody's seen before. And like, that's, I think, what a home run recipe looks like most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Fun stuff. I want to come out and come to your little Airbnb farm and come hang out with the aminals and maybe

bring some board games with me. You have a new stray cat that showed up today. Yeah, all the donkeys and the horses and the goats and the chickens. It's truly the best. I will tell you when you're having a bad day, when you start out the day, shoveling stalls, manure and stalls, you're just like, you literally like, I just shoveled shit. What could go wrong?

Nothing is going on. Right now. No phone call at the end of the day. Like no gut punches that day. It's really humbling and it's just, it's really magical. It's kind of how I feel when I do a, do some, you know, an ice. bath in the morning. It's like really, really unpleasant. And I get out. I'm like, I feel good now. Okay, Justin, you're coming because we have a sauna.

We have a barrel sauna and a cold plunge right next to it in the woods, the middle of the wood. All right. Great. Well, so now I've got a new plan to go. And this is where the great new idea is going to come from, which we'll... That's right. Everybody. I love it. I love it. All right. Well, so I think, you know, you have been generous in your your, your, your, your, uh, request and or commitment that you know, you talk to people and they should reach out to you. If people do want to find more from you or reach out to you or see your stuff or whatever, where should they go? How do they do that? Okay.

Well, I own a company called the upside agency. So it's just the upside agency.com. That's very businessy. You can email me at Jamie, J-A-I-M-E. I was named after the Bionic woman, Jamie Summers. Shout out to 98. J-A-I-M-E at the Upside. agency.com.

And then I am on Instagram, Nashville undercover your hippie. And if you're interested in the cabins, honestly, it's pretty magical in the middle of Tennessee. It's the cabins at Center Hill Lake on Instagram. And I keep my kind of photo library out there. And the purpose of that space, I love curating that space, but the purpose of that space is to reconnect with yourself and through nature and quieting down, quieting down your mind, even though we have incredible Wi-Fi.

and it's an amazing creative space. And I invite vendors out there all the time. We do a lot of business planning there and it's really sweet. Okay. Love it. Thank you so much, Jamie. I knew this was going to be amazing. And it was.

I am very excited to come and do this next time, IRL on your farm and we'll have many more fun chats ahead. I can't wait. This is amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. If you want to support the podcast, please rate, comment, and share on your favorite podcast

platforms, such as iTunes, Stitcher, or whatever device you're listening on. Listener reviews and shares make a huge difference and help us grow this community and will allow me to bring more amazing guests and insights to you. I've taken the insights from these interviews, along with my 20 years of experience in the game industry, and compressed it all into a book with the same title as this podcast. Think like a game designer. In it, I give step-by-step instructions on how to apply the lessons from these great designers and bring your own games to life.

If you think you might be interested, you can check out the book at think like a game designer.com or wherever find books or sleep.