Think Like A Game Designer - Jon Barry — Mastering Game Accessories with Forged Gaming: From Community Insights to Crowdfunding Masterpieces, and the Role of AI in Future Gaming (#48)

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Jon Barry is the founder of Forged Gaming, a renowned game accessories company. Jon has dedicated himself to creating a plethora of products that enhance the gaming experience, such as dice and game master screens. His pursuit of excellence and deep passion for gaming have driven him to push the boundaries of the industry, establishing Forged Games as a leader in the gaming accessory market. For those eager to learn about game accessory creation, this episode offers a wealth of invaluable lessons and insights. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe

Hello and welcome to Think Like a Game Designer. I'm your host, Justin Gary. In this podcast, I'll be having conversations with brilliant game designers from across the industry with a goal of finding universal principles that anyone can apply in their creative life. You could find episodes and more at think like a game designer.com. In today's episode, I speak with John Barry. John runs Forged Gaming, which is a producer of accessories and gaming devices and an upcoming cool new magnetic game masterboard that's coming to Kickstarter and it's probably live as this episode airs. John has been a friend of mine for about two years. I met him at Jen Con and he's really been a great force in the industry and even though he's not a game designer per se, he designs a lot

of products that players know and love and has a lot of great insights into the operational logistics and the business side of the industry. So I thought it would be a great to kind of get some exposure to those ideas and really help to clarify what it takes to take a idea from full concept all the way through to being able to sell in stores. And so he has a lot of great insights here. We talk about the process of creating 3D models and concepting.

We talk about the influence of AI and the future of gaming. We talk about how you do market research and what it takes to fulfill and become your own distributor versus working with other distributors. We really get into a lot of the behind the scenes of what happens as things get actually how games get into your local stores, how games get to you. We talk about the importance of communication skills and how to develop those skills, how to build relationships, how to create genuine value. And also I reveal a few little Easter eggs that are in some of

the Stoneblade products, which I don't think I've ever revealed before. But those come a little later in the episode. So you'll have to listen in to hear about those. And just, you know, we talk about those little details and how those little details really matter and the products we create and what it means to be an artist and to have an artistic creation, what success looks like. So there's a lot of really great content in here. We talk a lot about some of the cool products he's working on. And he'll see he comes across just a really great guy, really great person to have around in the industry.

And I thought it was just a great different perspective to bring to bear. So hopefully you enjoy this as much as I enjoyed recording it. So without further ado, here is John Barry. Hello and welcome. I am here with John Barry. John, it's great to have you on the podcast, my friend. Thanks, Justin. It's great to be here. Yeah, so this is actually going to be an interesting one because, you know, normally, you know, most people I bring on this podcast are game designers specifically. We do have some other people from areas around the industry, including, you know, CEOs and, you know, different, you know,

designers from different types of graphic design and otherwise. And you're, you're kind of more of a of an operation specialist, I guess, is how I think of you. But how would you, how would you describe yourself if you were going to kind of give people an overview of your role in the industry and what your, what your superpowers are? Well, now, now I'm a little self-conscious. No, so, no, I think that's, I think that's fair. I mean, you know, traditionally, I've got a pretty strong operations and project management background. I like to think that I am also a creative. And I do take a, a pretty active role in a lot of the product development that we do at forged. But no, you're not wrong. It's primarily my role is, is operations and keeping our projects moving along and making sure that

making sure that our customers and our stores have the have the forged products that they want when they want them. Yeah. And so I want to, I want to dig into this stuff because I think for a lot of people that are designers, what you do is a complete mystery. It's like this black box of of magic that happens that suddenly turns something into something, you know, an idea into something beautiful that's actually delivered and functional and, you know, gets into stores hands and players hands. And, you know, as someone, myself, who's, you know, both designer and CEO and have had to deal with all of the aspects of the business, I've learned the hard way how,

how difficult this could be and how valuable it is to, you know, have some insights into what works and what doesn't. And so I was hoping to bring you on until just dig into, a little bit more about your background and how you got to kind of where you are and hopefully surface some insights that would be really useful for people out there who really just don't know, you know, maybe they've got a great game idea, but they really just don't know how to bring it to life or, you know, they want to make some kind of cool accessory. What does that look like? And so, yeah, so I'm happy to sort of dig in and, you know, kind of maybe just starting a little

bit about how you kind of got into the industry and like kind of what your origin story is here. So the whole origin story is probably would take longer than this, take longer than we have here today. But as far as the gaming industry goes, that's, it's also interesting. So, but a little bit short. So I've been short. I like it. Perfect podcast content. So I like a lot of folks that you and I know, I've been, I've been involved in gaming in one way or another since I was.

kid, you know, it started the earliest that I can remember, you know, I grew up watching my stepbrothers play Risk and got really, got really into anything that they were doing. And that extended into Dungeons and Dragons when they started playing Dungeons and Dragons. And, you know, one of the things I remember is going to the bookstore when I was a kid in the mall and seeing the Dragon Lance Chronicles books on the shelf and really attracted to that Larry Elmore Art and that kind of started me down the started me down the path that I'm that I'm on today. But as far as my like professional involvement in the industry,

a few years ago, the owner of the parent company of Forge Gaming was interested in selling the company and he, I was introduced to him by a friend of mine. and we sat down and we had a conversation and we started going through the motions of what that might look like, you know, in terms of selling a company and stuff like that. And ultimately, I, we decided that, you know, it wasn't the right time. But, you know, I put on my kind of consulting hat.

And, you know, one of the roles that I have played professionally over the course of the last 20 years is marketing and marketing project management. And so I put that hat on. And I said, you know, these are the things that this is what I think you have. And these are the things that I would, that if I were in charge, these are the things that I would do. And that I think would not only increase the value of the company, but put, you know, put the, put the, put the, put the, put the forge brand on on a path to, to greater success. And a few months later, he called me up and asked me if I was interested in in, in working with him on kind of executing that plan. And that's kind of the path I've been on for the last three years.

All right. So I want to, I want to dig in a little bit more here. because that's this sort of, you've mentioned a lot of subjects here that are pretty fascinating to me. There's just the general like, okay, I feel like selling my company now. And you're having a conversation around either potentially buying it or helping him to navigate a sale or like. Yeah. So I was approaching the situation as a potential, as a, my friend and I were the potential suitors. Okay.

Okay. So then, so walk me a little bit through. What does that look like? So you're saying, okay, cool, you got a company now. What makes you decide you want to buy it? you don't want to buy it. What does that analysis look like? I'm fascinated by this sort of thing.

You know, I think for me, that's a complicated question. It was, I was at a point, and I guess, you know, you get to a point, I'm always interested in, I've always been interested in kind of being the master of my own destiny to one degree or another. And when my friend and I have, have, have, always been kind of in tangentially related industries throughout our careers. We, you know, her brother and I are best friends. So we all kind of grew up together in small town in Missouri. And she and I have,

have been in similar industries and similar roles throughout our careers. And we were just at a point at that period in time where, where we were talking about it just came up one day, you know, we should really find something that we, we could do together as a business. And she said, oh, yeah. by the way, I have these friends that have an e-commerce business and they're interested in,

you know, they're potentially interested in selling. And that's kind of how that conversation started. And so I think that's, I think that answers your question. Yeah, I guess I'm, I mean, and maybe it's not, it's too much detail for this, but like, you know, when I think about the dollars and cents of approaching it, right? So I've, I've raised money as my company and I understand the kind of prospects of doing that. There's some amount of the, you know, current financials and things that you're doing. There's some amount of the selling the dream of, you know, what's next and here's the trajectory we're on. I even had, I even was approached by another company to buy my company at one point, now, what, seven or eight years ago, which I almost went very far down that road and very glad I ended up

not selling. But, you know, I just sort of coming at this from an outsider bringing it in, I just think it's really, it's kind of intriguing if it was like, yeah, hey, this is something we'd want to do. But it's not really. right because there's something that said this isn't right and that was the business wasn't on the right trajectory or you weren't like it wasn't quite the right fit but it turned out to be the right fit for you to end up running it and doing making these changes which sounds very similar to you know buying it except less capital exposure I guess so I'm just curious like what that what that thought pattern looks like there for you so at the time it was it wasn't that it wasn't a good

fit it just it wasn't it wasn't the right time it turned out to not be the right time for me. It wasn't the right time for my friend. And really a lot of what it came down to was I didn't know anything about e-commerce at that time. And that was the primary, kind of the primary function of the parent company. And I just wasn't going to be, I just wasn't going to be comfortable and it wouldn't have been, it wouldn't have been a good, you know, I've got a lot of faith in my ability to get things done. But it, you know, it wouldn't have been the wasn't the responsible decision at that time to try to go out and raise money to to do something that I didn't really understand does that make sense yeah no that makes sense and so then what is

it that then changed or what is it that you either learned or then applied to then be able to make this more in your either you brought it more into your wheelhouse or you expanded your wheelhouse so what what were the key lessons there or or principles that helped you to actually take this company and grow it maybe it's also worth explaining what they do exactly because we haven't really talked about that yet. So, well, I mean, we start there. So the parent company of Forge Gaming is called twofold supply and plays a very, there are five brands in-house.

Forged is the largest brand in terms of kind of revenue and activity. But there are four other brands that are also successful. And ranging in, you know, ranging in markets from like office supplies and stationary to home goods like essential oil. users and things like that. So it's a pretty diverse portfolio, primarily existing, the brands primarily just online except for Forge, which now is just taking on a growing and increasing role in brick and mortar, you know, brick and mortar game stores. That was one of the things that was really important to me from the beginning, which was to create, was to create products

and to build a brand that was focused on providing great products to, you know, those brick and mortar friendly local game stores, you know, like basically like the one that I grew up in with in Jefferson City, Missouri. So, so that's what the company does. And then what brought me, what really sucked me in was the opportunity to work, you know, with a brand like Forged, in an area in a market that I had never had any professional exposure to up to that point, but had had a lifelong exposure to from a player and a fan's perspective, right?

So, you know, then taking my kind of professional career experience in, you know, marketing and marketing management, project management, branding, things like that, and really bringing that into this world in helping build the force brand into what it is today. Yeah. So, you know, and I really, I love to get into the details here, right? So you're bringing in all these years of experience and marketing management experience. And, you know, what does that translate into in concrete terms, right? Somebody out there that's listening that says, hey, I want to make a cool, a customeries company.

or I want to launch my game and take it into stores or, you know, publish other, you know, things. Like, what is it? What are the specifics that say, okay, these are areas of expertise I'm able to apply and transform this company into what it is today? So I think I can kind of approach that from a slightly different angle, right? So, you know, for me coming into this situation, it was it was doing a lot of due diligence out in the real world, like going to spending a lot of time in my local Kansas City game stores and getting a real sense of what their pain points were and what they wanted to see from

the brands that they were partnering with or, you know, from a customer perspective, what it was that they wanted to see in their stores and how they wanted to be treated. and how, you know, again, you know, what were the real pain points that they were facing in the marketplace? And then from there, kind of building, you know, building on that with the building on that with Forged and making sure that we, making sure that we were able to meet those, to meet those demands. Yeah. All right. So general principles, right, direct customer research, talk to the people you wish to serve, find out what their pain points are, find out what they're looking for, figure out. how to meet that need. And so then again, just drilling in for specifics, like what were the specific points that they said?

What was missing in the marketplace? What are the things that stores are looking forward to say, yeah, I'm okay to carry this, whether that, you know, be accessories line or other ones. So I think, I think those are, it's not all that mysterious from what most, what most, what most vendors would, or what most stores would want. But in this case, it was, it was consistent, you know, things like consistency in, in, both product availability and quality. And then from a quality perspective, stores don't,

stores don't like to have unhappy customers, right? So, you know, it's important for those stores to have to present to their customers quality products, especially when you're in a price range, excuse me, in a price range, a higher end kind of premium price range like a lot of forged products, which are still really affordable comparatively speaking. but that are more expensive than dice, for example, like a set of high-quality metal dice is going to be more expensive than a set of quality plastic dice.

And so stores don't want to deal with unhappy customers. They want to be able to have faith in the fact that when they sell a product, that they've got a reasonable, they're reasonably confident that that product is that customer is not going to come back in the next day, upset because of the poor quality of the product. And so those were a couple of the things. And then variety and availability of diversity of product catalog. You know, those were the things that stores are really looking for.

And just to expand on that diversity aspect, you know, Forged is an independent distributor of its own products. And so what that means is that, you know, we're not in distribution with any of the major distributors that serve game stores in the United States or other, you know, places in the world for that matter. And so for a store to work with us, you know, they're going outside of their traditional mass market distributors. And so if they're going to make that effort, it's going to be important to them that it's worth it's worthwhile. All right. So I think this is a good opportunity now to zoom back out because for a lot of people listening, they don't understand the structure about how things actually get. How do those products that they see on their store shelves actually get to stores?

What are the, what's the, what's the system that goes on behind the scenes here? So I think it's worth maybe highlighting that what the general path is, maybe how you differentiate from it. Because I think that's like an area where you have a lot of insights for, for most people, they're just like, oh, well, you know, whatever, I just buy the game when it shows up or I buy it on Amazon. I buy it on it on your self and that's it. What, maybe you can give a little insight into like what really is going on behind the scenes here. Sure.

And, you know, I think that we can dig it in various points. Yeah. So, I mean, I think we can start at the, you know, if you're a designer or developer and you have a product that you've, that you haven't, you have a great idea and you've vetted that idea and you've tested it. You've got a new game. You're going to have to not only get that thing manufactured, but that's, you know, that's just the first, that's just the first part of it. That's probably a whole, that's probably a whole other show. But once you have that product manufactured, then you're going to need to get it. you're going to need to get it into stores you're either going to sell it yourself uh through some type of online you know e-commerce store you're going to sell it to uh you're going to or on a platform like like amazon for example um or you're going to work with a big distributor who's going to either you know purchase your product outright or or come to some other type of of uh arrangement for your for the distribution and sale of your products or you're going to have to go to you're going to have to create your own distribution network and reach out and

build store relationships and sell that, sell that product or sell that game directly to stores yourself. So, I mean, that is a big part of that's probably not every single way that a product's going to get to market, but that's, that's going to cover,

you know, 85, 90% of it, I think. Yeah. And it's, I think people just don't appreciate how much sort of work and effort is involved in those steps, right? Like so typically, you know, you'll find a deal with a distributor who can handle a large number of stores, but then they're taking a cut out of that sale and you have to

manage that versus your own, you know, warehousing and distribution solution, trying to build direct relationships with stores that they carry your product, making sure that, you know, customers are aware of it and going to those stores. Like, there's a huge pipeline of things. It takes, it takes a lot of effort. And if you're a small brand or small company trying to kind of get going, it's not easy to kind of grow that network, especially when you're doing, you know, kind of direct store to store sales as, as you guys are doing. You and I met at a GenCon was a couple years ago now. And, you know, I've noticed you being very present at conventions and, you know, hosting events and bringing people in. Is that, is that, is that been

one of your primary ways to kind of grow or are you going, calling stores up? Are you doing a roadshow? What's your main tools that you use to sort of bring these new customers in and start supporting and growing your network? So there are a lot of, it's a little bit of everything that you kind of mentioned. There's the, I don't know that I have any particular secret formula other than just other than consistency. You know, when I, but a lot of it is it's calling stores and building, you know, building those direct relationships. and then it's hard work. It takes, it's a lot of, you know, it's not just one phone call and then a store signs up and then you're selling them product.

It's a lot of, it's just a lot of work and a lot of consistent, consistent contact work and following through and making sure that you, you know, that you do what you say you're going to do. And going to conventions surely is sure is part of it. meeting, uh, meeting, exciting and interesting people. Uh,

you know, you and I, uh, we bumped into each other in the lobby of, of the Hyatt at Jen Con and, you know, just, just kind of hit it off based on the similarity of our names,

you know? That is true. We did just start joking about Justin Gary, John Barry becoming friends and I had soul forge and you had forged gaming and yeah, exactly. So, it's the best friend.

Yeah. And so and, and, and, you know, those are the types of things that are only going to happen at conventions and are only going to happen if you if you put yourself out there in some way. And so we do, you know, we have hosted a few events and we, that's a lot of fun. But really,

it, you know, for me, the, my favorite part of this work and the marketing and the kind of the grassroots effort of building the company is, is being present in not only my local game stores, but making, you know, making myself and the team available to two stores to handle customer service issues and to walk them through, you know, our product catalog and help them, help them with orders of what's, you know, what our most popular products are, what we see, what we, get kind of insights that we see in the market at the moment so that they can make the best decisions that they can at the moment with the information available to them so that, you know, they can be successful with us and we can be successful with them.

Yeah. So that's, you know, that's really just one of those things that it's, there's no, there's no substitute for just like building relationships, you know, over time directly,

being genuine, like being, you know, that's one of the things I love about this industry. And I can't necessarily compare it to too many others because it's pretty much the only industry I've really worked in. But it just feels like, Like, you know, we are here because we love what we do.

We love this space. We love gaming. We love the communities that it's here. And so everybody, you know, if you want a game store, it's not because you're trying to make the most money you can, typically speaking, right? It's not the most lucrative industry to jump into. And most people here could be making more money doing something else, but they're here because they love it.

And so being able to like share that enthusiasm and then support each other to ideally make, you know, plenty of money, but I'll, you know, just continue to do what we do and grow of the community is just, it's such a powerful and rewarding and reinforcing thing that has certainly served me well over time, just continuing to add value to the community and make friendships and relationships. And I think it's just the best, you know, it's kind of generic, but it's some of the best advice for anybody that wants to really build a career here over the long term. Yeah.

I think, I honestly, I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any substitute. I can agree with you more. There's no substitute for just being. present and putting yourself out there and meeting. If you're interested in, if you're interested in being an active part of this industry on a professional level, just being present and making yourself open to opportunities that may come along. It's the biggest, it's the biggest piece of advice that could probably give anybody. So, so let's take this because I got to imagine, you know, you and I are pretty outgoing people. We have no trouble, you know, engaging in, uh,

being active in a crowd, you know, there are some people who don't feel that way, right? Some people who feel introverted or shy or, you know, that maybe we'll have trouble kind of just going out there and, you know, putting themselves out there like that. I don't know if you have any advice for those people or thoughts on, you know, if they can still use the same approach or other ways that they can kind of build up that confidence. Or were you always like this? Or did you have to learn this skill? Or how do you think about that?

No, I was, I was a, I've probably always been this way to some degree. And, and, you know, but I've, I was a really awkward kid. You know, there's no, there's just no way around that. But I grew up in a pretty vocal boisterous household where if I, you know, if, if, if, if I wanted to be heard or I wanted to, if, if I wanted to be heard, then I had to be, I had to be loud because everyone else, if we had a big family dinner, extended family, everyone was talking. really loudly and being very passionate about whatever it was they were talking about. So I kind of had exposure to that at a very young age. And obviously, I, I reacted to it the way that I did. And it is kind of one of those things that made me who I am. And yeah, I don't, I think that that's certainly not going to be the same for everybody. And so, you know, in this context, if there's somebody out there who, who maybe isn't as as confident or is a little, little bit, or is a little bit shy, you know, talking to strangers or putting themselves in, putting themselves in situations where they might be around people they don't know.

I, you know, I'm not, I don't know what to say other than if it, if it's, if you're just a little bit trepidacious, then start small. If it's something that you're, if it's possible for you to do and it, and you're comfortable just starting small, then say hi to the, you know, know, say hi to the person at the, at the next retail experience at the cash register or whatever it is when you're checking out, just, or the person that drops off the mail or the Amazon driver or somebody that's walking their dog by, you know, just walking by, you know, and just start small like that and see how it goes. I think that a lot of, I'm going to sound very, I don't mean to sound patronizing or anything like that, but I think that modern, the way that people communicate

now is a lot different than the way that you and I grew up communicating with our peers. And so you don't, it is not necessary, it's not as necessary for individuals today to have those direct interpersonal interactions like it was for me growing up. And I said you and I, we're about the same age. So, and so, you know, kids these days. Yeah, that's where I'm really trying to. I like a kid these days, but and I'm not, I'm not saying not good, not bad.

It's just different. And so, but, but, you know, people seem to react well and positively, you know, on the whole, at least for me, to, to those personal and direct interactions. And so for those people out there that may not be as comfortable or may not have had as much experience, you know, talking to strangers, let's say. in a positive context, I would say just practice and start small and see how it goes. And if you and if and if it doesn't go well and you and you are interested in getting your ideas out there or or your game out there, but you're just not comfortable talking to strangers.

Something, a piece of advice that I would give to somebody who just couldn't do it would be to align themselves with a friend or a confidon or a trusted third party who, can play that role on their behalf? Yeah, I think that's great. I think it's great advice on both fronts, right? Yeah, sometimes, you know, if you're, you're not that, you can't be that kind of front person, you know, role and be the one that's going to do the talking, you could find someone else who can be, but I think it's always, always, always worth it for you to stretch and push to get better at that. There's no single skill that's going to unlock more doors for you than communication, right? the ability to get your ideas across, to share enthusiasm, to connect genuinely with other people.

There's just, that is the universal superpower. And so I agree with, you know, everything you said. And I think it's just practicing, I'm in the middle of teaching my, I think like a game designer master class right now and we're getting them ready. They're all going to do live pitches to real publishers at the end of the course. And it's a 12 week course. And, you know, designing a game and getting it ready to pitch to real publishers and have a whole thing in 12 weeks is very, very, aggressive. And so people get nervous, right? And it's like, no, listen, you need to practice this. And so every time you talk about your game, work on your elevator pitch. Go tell your mom, tell your friends, like go through, what does it look like? How do you explain the game in two minutes? How do you explain the game in five minutes? How do you go through these things? And just getting practice

over and over and over again is absolutely critical for being able to get better at it. Because it's not a skill that everybody has. It's not a skill that people are born with. It's a skill that you get better at the more you do it. And if you are lucky enough to have a loud family that is doing the, you know, forcing you to be loud and practice early, then no problem. If you don't have that, then you get to have that practice later on in life and it's super critical. So I think it's a, it's a really valuable skill.

It's something that came across to me is, you know, you're particularly good at. And I think is if you're going to, you know, try to start your own business and sell your own stuff, it's, it's a, it's a non-negotiable skill. Yeah. One of the things that I, I think you kind of alluded to this, one of the things that I like to kind of say is I, you know, I want to continuously challenge myself. And I try to get, I have tried very hard to be comfortable with being uncomfortable in putting myself in situations that are challenging in a lot of different ways. And I think that I think it's just, I think it's just really important. All right. So I wanted to also talk, I know you've got a good new project coming up that you were pretty excited about. I'd love to get into some details about that and maybe I think we're shifting over to crowdfunding and kind of the decision-making process around that.

Sure. So yeah, and thanks for the opportunity to talk about it. So we've been working for the last more than a year, I guess now at this point, on a very unique game master screen project. project with a few of our industry friends. And we launched that project here at the end of, actually, nine days from now, I think. So I'm not sure when this is going to- Yeah, this recording won't air exactly the right time. So very soon, possibly, probably a lot. It'll probably be live when the time this thing goes. Yeah, so very soon, we're launching very soon.

And it has been a, it has been a very interesting exercise. We have never crowdfunded any of our products before. or any of our projects. So this is a first for us. Fortunately, we are, we've partnered with some folks who do have some experience with with crowdfunding. But really, even beyond that, this has just been a great, a very interesting experience and just the different product development process for this crowdfunding exercise versus

what we would normally do. And so we're really excited. The project is we've gotten a great response. We're really ramping up. We're really ramping up well. And I just can't wait. I can't wait for it to hit the market and see how to see how people really react. So, okay, talk to me a little bit more about this product.

What makes, I've seen, I know what a game master screen is kind of. Maybe some people in the audience don't. What is it? What is the game master screen? What makes us different? Why is this special? So a game master screen primarily used in tabletop role playing games for the, for the game master, the individual that's responsible for running.

kind of running the game and organizing the game allows them to, it's basically a physical barrier between that individual and the players of the game around the table. But what it really, rather than being a physical barrier, what it really is allows the game master to organize information that the rest of the players may not necessarily need to see for the sake of the game. And so to allow the game master to more efficiently, you know, run the game without having to take breaks to look up, you know, information in books or online or things like that.

All right. Piece of cardboard with printing on it. Cool. Now in its most basic and rudimentary form, yes. That's okay. Most of what I make is pieces of cardboard with printing on it. It's pretty much my whole career. So don't worry.

So, but so, okay, so what's, why is yours, why is your special? So what we've done is we've, we said, When we set out to do this project, we wanted to, what I wanted to do, and what we all agreed on

was we wanted to make the Game Master screen that all of us would want. You know, what is it that, what is it that's missing from other, you know, similar products on the market? And there are several. What's missing and how can we, how can we just make the best thing possible? And so basically what we did was we started with the idea that whatever it was, that we, that whatever, we ended up, we wanted it to be as customizable and as individually unique to each person that was using it as possible. And that's kind of the basis. That's where we started. That was

kind of our mission. And we landed on a basically fully, fully magnetic screen system that is metal panels and wrapped in leather. It looks amazing. It's not super. heavy. It packs down relatively small and we'll have many different fully customizable elements from, from wet erase magnets that can be used for tables all the way up to initiative trackers and other tablet holders, tablet holders, phone holders, anything that the modern game master uses to help them organize information and run their games. It's basically all going to be there. and available as part of this, as part of the system associated with the screen. Is there a plug-in for my AI Game Master to run things for me?

So as long as you can run that out of your tablet or mobile phone, yes. That's amazing. You know, we're not selling, we aren't selling the technology, though. Yeah, yeah, no, I just, the world's evolving very rapidly right now. But all right, that sounds super cool. It sounds like definitely an interesting innovation on the. on the model, well-pitched. So what made you decide then to go do a Kickstarter,

or is it Kickstarter? It is going to be a Kickstarter, yes. What made you decide to do that? All your other products, you've just sold directly at stores, launched yourself. What made you decide to switch it up for this one? You know, we, it was a long debate. And where we landed was, you know, what Kickstarter or a crowdfunding platform, at least in our case, it provided us.

us with the option to engage with our audience before we were completely, before the product was completely finished. So right now, I would say that, you know, what we're going to Kickstarter with is an 85 to 90 percent, 85 to 90 percent product. But what we've been able to do over the course of this kind of pre, you know, this pre-Kickstarter launch is work with, we've, we've, we've grown a community of people who are interested in this project. And we have posed questions to them, design questions, functionality questions. And we've really been able to incorporate a lot of that feedback into the design, into the design itself. And you're probably saying to yourself, well, you can do that. You could do that anyway with traditional, you know, traditional means like

focus groups and things like that. And that's, and it's very true. But we just saw. crowdfunding as a unique opportunity to take a product like this to and make it a reality. Yeah, no, you're preaching to the choir here. I mean, I've had, I have really loved the process of building with my audience, giving feedback from them. You know, we've done this with Soul Ford Fusion. We did this for the Sension Tactics. We have our Shards of Infinity, saga collection, Kickstarter coming up soon.

And it's something that, you know, I joke, it shouldn't be called Kickstarter. It should be called kick finisher because I think people, you know, if they think they're going bring a product that's not mostly done, and have it be a success, then you're mistaken. And it can be a real problem. Even when you do fund, oftentimes you don't realize how much the thing costs and too many changes. There's all kinds of problems. But if you're, you know, 80 to 90 percent done and you want to be able to take that last cross that finish line, being able to bring your customers, bring your players in to be collaborative part of that process and really help you make the best thing you can, I think it's wonderful. There's a lot of overhead and burden that

comes with it because you want to make sure you're communicating to them and managing their expectations and you know as you go but it's it's it's been very well worth it for me and it's just i love having a direct connection to the fans right it's a it's an opportunity for them to talk directly to us for them to support you know their the creators that they love directly for them to get stuff early and some cool bonuses to show off that they're you know kind of the true fans and and and then they become your alpha adopters too right they're like hey look at this cool thing i have because they were a part of making it happened and they suggested this feature that's here, this change in this card or this whatever.

And so it's a really, I think it's a great system. It's just such a cool way to be able to, you know, create and engage that was not possible, you know, 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. And it's been an interesting, it has been a lot of work. It's a different, like I mentioned, you know, it's been a different way to work. But it's been a lot of fun. And we're coming to the end of the, you know, we're getting to the part where, you know, I'm starting to, you know, as a marketing and operations guy, I'm getting a little nervous, you know, have we done? Have we done enough? Is it, is it going to be, you know, are people going to react when it, when it really comes down to it, are they going to react as positively as we, as we hope? And as we, you know, all the indicators are telling us that they will. You know, it's just, it's a very, it's just been a nerve wracking. It's been a nerve wracking process, but very, but very unique and very.

very interesting. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I've been, I've done, I don't know, I don't have lost count now, maybe half a dozen Kickstarters I've been involved in and raised probably $2 million worth. And still, every time, it's always like nerve-wracking. Did I do everything right? Is this communicated clearly? Are we on the right track? Should we change something? Is just there's no like, there's no, there's no escaping the pre-launch jitter. So you're in good company. Don't worry. Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. All right. So if anybody that's listening now is super excited and wants to go check out the Kickstarter, which will most likely be live now by the time this launches. Where should they go? How should they find it? It is theultimategamemaster.com.

The ultimate game master.com. That's a good URL. I like it. Yeah. So we, yeah. So the ultimate game master.com. That'll get you connected to both. to both the development group as well as the as well as the Kickstarter once it's live. Cool. All right. Cool. So now we've gone through your past. We've talked about the present.

What do you see as the future? What do you think as, you know, the industry is evolving a lot? You know, we kind of half joked a little bit about AI game masters and, you know, technology is evolving very quickly. The tabletop gaming space and accessory space is, you know, by it's certainly been growing, but by another measure, it's certainly, it's gotten pretty crowded. where do you see the industry growing? What things are you excited about in the future?

What things you're afraid of in the future? What's the future look like from your, from your angle in the industry? There's a lot. Depending on who you talk to right now, there's a lot of kind of short-term doom and gloom, I think, with the with the market in the industry in general. but I am pretty positive, you know. As far as like things that I want to work on, I've actually, you know, believe it or not, we can talk about this some other time.

I actually have a game idea, believe it or not. That has a lot to, that has a lot of elements that you and I have discussed on a couple of different occasions. I don't know if you'd be interested in it or not, but I'd really like to do it. Is it one you're willing to talk about on the podcast? Because I'm happy to make game ideas live.

Maybe we, maybe we have a chat and we get a little bit down the wrote on the idea together and then we talk about it in a different podcast. All right. All right. But no, you know, I think AI is interesting. It's a big topic right now. And I think I am one of these people that I think that I think the cat's out of the bag at this point.

And I don't think you're going to put it back. I think there, I think there probably needs to be some, a hard look at regulation to a degree. just to make sure that as this technology continues to develop and evolve, and I mean evolve with like a capital E, that it is done in a way that's responsible. But I think it's here and I don't think it's going anywhere. So I think rather than fight against it and fight against the use, the incorporation of this technology into our lives,

I think, you know, I am of the opinion that we should embrace it, responsibly, again, with a capital R, and take advantage of the, of the opportunities that a technology like AI brings to the table. And I think there are a lot of different ways that it can be used in gaming in a positive way. So I think it's going to be, so I think AI, and I'm not a, look, I'm not a technologist. I don't see the future or anything like that, but I think that I think it's going to be an increasingly important part of the gaming industry and just kind of our lives in general. But I think that the creators out there that I know, and I think that I would imagine the ones that you know, you included, are going to continue to have great ideas

and are going to continue to create games and products and opportunities. in the market for people to for people to engage and enjoy and for the community to grow so i'm i'm positive i'm upbeat yeah no i i i'm uh i share your your overall optimism i mean it's it's one of these times where it is you know potentially the greatest technological disruption that has ever occurred in all of human history so it's it's totally understandable to me that people are nervous and that there's you know anxiety around what's next and i think it's it's very hard for anyone to know what's next here. The evolution of it is so fast, right?

I mean, chat GPT, I think, just became publicly available in like October. So we're really like six, six, seven months or so of like public play in the space. And then GPT4 was only like three or four months ago. And so there's like a huge amounts of changes, the evolution of how much what you can do with art on, you know, things like mid-journey is rapidly evolving. You know, what does it mean to be an artist nowadays? What is it, you know, what is fair use? What is the, you know, what is the nature of the innovation of AI?

How much of it is copying? What is the places where it can help someone to be more productive? I mean, I will tell you, we have, yeah, I'm very intrigued by it. And I'm, I'm, you know, not just to go a little ran for myself. Like, I always love, like, what every new technology, you know, obsolete certain types of skills and encourages new types of innovations, right? And I have always tried to be at the forefront of what technology can do. When I first started working on the original version of SoulForge with Richard Garfield,

we did. It was the first really one of the first digital trading card games. It was the first really, in my opinion, well designed, natively digital trading card game, right before Harstone, before any of these other ones, because that was new technology. You could play games like that on your, you know, you had tablets and phones that didn't exist before. And then, you know, with the newer version where we're doing the hybrid digital deck, digital printing that was exciting and new was not possible before and scanning decks into an online account and managing that and now what is it now what is unlocked with AI that couldn't

be done before what types of games are possible of being created and there's huge things I know people that are playing in the space and you know again they are AI dungeon masters in fact you can even just use the basics of chat jbt to be an AI dungeon master free it's not great but it's okay and you can you know and then there's you know what NPCs and games can look like what types of you know, ideation and creation you can do. I've definitely used it to help make my rulebooks better already. You know, there's like a lot of little pieces that are already with current technology, useful ways to improve what you do.

It's not replacing any game designers I know yet. Maybe it will, but it's a fascinating space to be. Have you used it for anything of substance so far or just kind of keeping an eye on it? Of substance, not really. I've played around with, I've played around with one of the junior versions of chat GPT. Just to kind of, I mean, you know, it's, I think in the position that I'm in, I'd be silly to bury my head in the sand, you know, like I basically try to do with social media.

But, you know, so I like to understand how things work and what the capacities are. So I have played around with a, of substance, you know, no. I think I, I think the most substantive thing I've tried to do with one of the chat GPT iterations was I fed it the prompt. of a Dungeons and Dragons character I played at a campaign last year and had it right a background. So, and it was, you know, it wasn't like a backstory, like an origin story. And it was, you know, it was okay. It wasn't, yeah, wasn't great. But it was, you know, it was okay.

It was something. Well, right. Well, the fact that a machine can do that at all, and you could just like, you know, say, hey, write me the saying or, you know, it's really fun. I mean, like, we had, yeah, like somebody on my team had a rap battle between me and Richard Garfield. And it raided one that was like, wow, it knew enough. about both of us and it was like kind of hilarious and like well right we're not using that for

anything but uh it was uh impressive that it could come up with an answer like that you know or we do every one of our soul forge fusion cards because they all show up in three levels all of our um all of our flavor text is haikus so it's like one line on each of the level of levels of the three cards and so we wrote all of those ourselves at the beginning but now it's like well okay this you know it's really good at making cool you know poems hykos you know these kinds of things in a way that's like, you know, in 30 seconds, it can generate you, you know, 50 of these. So it's like a really interesting thing. Maybe you won't use them exactly, but they give you great starting points.

Like I find ideation is really helpful by just having a bunch of ideas. Even bad ideas are actually helpful when you ideate a lot of research. What's really embarrassing for me is I've probably played, I've probably played close to 20 games of Soul Forest Fusion. And I never noticed that. Yeah, yeah. That's okay. It's not, uh, it's actually one of the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

interesting dilemmas. I often advise other people about this, but if you innovate too much, you lose people, right? And so Solvortchision has so many little innovations going on that like, nobody knows. There's that piece. There's the fact that every single card is numbered. It tells you where, how many times that card was printed, when that card was printed. So you have like lots of little hidden number ones in the bottom corner of every card. You have all kinds of like little interesting things that are, you know, cool. And I like them. But most people don't know about them yet. So that's How many haikus did you have to write originally? Oh, man, like hundreds.

It was a lot. We actually, it was a lot of haikus. And I give a lot of credit to George Rockwell, who was our creative director who wrote the vast majority of them. But also we did, in our Stoneblade Discord, we ran contests. And so we'd say we'd post the image of the card and kind of a little bit about what it does. And we'd have people do haiku contests. It was awesome.

So we have a lot of them were written actually by fans, by players. And so we do that every set. We have a couple of them that are posted to the fans. So it's really an entertaining part of the process. I find having restrictions for these things is really just helpful in general. Like any kind of creating some structure around what you do is really, really valuable. Yeah, that's cool. We had another Easter egg.

I don't think I've actually ever spoiled this Easter egg. But we did, for every one of our games, for the first several releases, we, we use the same letters for the set names, for the expansion set names. We use the same acronyms. And just because making set names is just hard. And so we just did the same, we did the same thing. So it was like, we have like a return of the fallen. It was the first expansion for ascension. And Relics of the Future is the first expansion for Shards of Infinity.

and the first expansion for Soul Forge was Rise of the Forgeborn. And so just like, you know what? Let's give ourselves a little extra challenge. And so we created this little Easter egg that, again, I don't think I've ever actually revealed until this very moment. That's awesome. No, not expect anybody to ever notice those things, but it makes it more fun for us and creates these little extra fun challenges

as you're designing. Well, I think it gives, it's little things like that. I mean, and we do, you know, when we're designing, products. You know, there are things that we, you know, little elements that, you know, we will try to incorporate and maintain consistency across, across products as well. And, you know, I think that's what really gives, I mean, that's what gives your, that's what gives your creations a real depth and a, in a, in a, in a sense of, of life is not the right word, but just, uh, of being, you know, like that, that, that story background and that, the depth of

creativity that goes into the stuff that we do, just even, even as minor as it might be, of, using the same acronym for your expansion sets. I mean, that's, you know, there will be people that recognize that at some point and having never heard your spoiler. And that, you know, and they're going to, that's going to mean something. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. I mean, look, the love and care, I think the end of the day that what we've taken out

of this is that regardless of what you do, right, the love and care and detail that you put into it makes a big. difference that your, you know, players, your fans, your customers, they will, they will notice that and it will, you know, it shines through. And frankly, forget, like, forget commercial success for a minute, right? What, what matters is that you, you express yourself in your art. Like, the things you create are an expression of you and you being able to bring that forward, whether it be humor in, you know, in a haiku or a, you know, really cool extra detail about the magnetic way that the boards connect for a game master screen or you know the thing that you've always wanted to

see that wasn't there like being able to bring that stuff to life is just that's what to me that's what success looks like right that's what a part of that you know in in in in an artistic expression that's kind of the the end goal so regardless of if nobody ever notices it you know it's still a part of why you know why we create things in the first place yeah no i couldn't i couldn't agree with you more you know I, my, the greatest compliment that I can get is, is having, you know, seeing the look on somebody's face when, when they, you know, when they react, you know, when they react positively to a product that I've had a hand in designing. And they, and it makes them, you know, brings them joy. It makes them, you know, brings them to a place where, you know, where they are going to, you know, they're going to have a positive and personal connection to that. you know, to that set of dice or or or or that dice tower or whatever that thing is that may

seem, you know, really minor. That's what really, that's why I just keep doing this, you know, like it's that, it's that, that reaction being able to bring, you know, being able to make that connection with somebody. So. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And I don't know if you have if you have more insights into this, but I think it's something that's really interesting, you know, the, what you bring to the table with these accessories is a lot. of this like this tactile this like presence this like feeling that changes right like i can i could play dungeon dragons with any set of dice but if i use this set of dice and this die you know rolling tower right it like it changes the vibe and the feel of what's happening do you i don't know if you can break this

down in any more detail but i think it's like a really fascinating thing's like what is it that makes that jump right what are the are there certain traits or things that you look for when you're like no no this is what's going to bring this thing to life or this this feel or is it just kind of you know it when you see it and you touch it. Man it's such a difficult it's such a difficult question to answer. I mean sometimes it's a sometimes it's a big process of trial and error, but most of the time you nailed it. It's just you know it when you see it. You know, I work with an extremely talented 3D illustrator and their capacity to take what I call, how I explain it to people is like their capacity to take the crazy out of my, out of my mind and whatever my scribblings are on paper

and turn it into, you know, turn it into this like just beautifully rendered version of what I saw in my, you know, what I saw in my mind. I mean, it's just, you, you, you do know it when you see it, you know, and, and, uh, we, we constantly try to push the boundaries of, of what our, uh, you know, what technology that are available to us can, can do with this, with the products that we, that we, that we, that we develop and design. So, and I just, I want those things to be, I want those things to look as good and be as cool as they possibly can be at the, at the most accessible, at the most accessible price that they, possibly can just so that most so that more people can can can can can can can can can can

can feel and and and and and just uh engage uh in a way that they weren't able to before yeah yeah and so so that that process as you kind of outlined it is sort of like you'll have an idea you'll describe that idea you have a 3D designer that'll kind of draw it up mock it up for you you'll maybe go back and forth with them till you get something that you're you're that mirrors what you're looking for, then you'd go to a factory to quote it out and see what it would look like and then maybe get a prototype done? Or is that, is that the general flow for you typically? That's pretty close. You know, we so I mean, typically how we would, how we do. I mean, there's a couple of little nuanced differences there. But I mean,

yeah, so, so for, for one of the three, you know, three dimensional like hand-painted resin pieces that we make, you know, we'll have an idea. We'll have an idea. Our artist will sketch it out, we will go back and forth and, you know, fine tuning, you know, fine tuning the small details. And, you know, those small de scales could be as fine as the, as the, as the, as the, as the, as the grain in the wood of a piece or the, or the, you know, the font of the, you know, font of lettering or something, just something really minor. But like, it's those those aggregated small details, uh, or the weathering on some, some metal strapping or something. like those small details that really bring that really bring a piece an art piece like this really to life. And so we'll go back and forth on those details. And then we'll either, we will either, you know, 3D print a prototype.

If it's a dice tower, for example, like we'll make sure that we'll make sure that it functions the way that it needs to function. And then once we have, you know, once we have a working, once we're happy with the prototype, then we'll send it to mold. And we'll, we'll have the mold made. and then we'll have a test print, you know, we'll have a test, a test product made from the mold. We'll make sure that it, you know, we'll make sure that it works. And then we'll have our, you know, we'll have our, we have some painters that are in-house that are really good at what they do. And we'll have them finalize the painting scheme. And then we'll take photos of that and we'll send that to the factory.

We'll make sure that everybody agrees. And that's kind of it. And then once we're, once we're, once we're there, it's ready to go. You know, I, and then there's other stuff too. you know there's packaging there's upcc's you know making sure that the the box is the right size and that the padding in the box is is appropriate for the product inside so that you know it passes the three foot drop test you know stuff all that stuff happens as well so but yeah we probably like you said we probably need a whole other episode to really dive enough into the the whole man you

I mean it's open to bigger door it didn't mean no no it's I mean I am also fascinated by that stuff but yeah I agree I don't think we have time today for that um but I think it's It's really key to, you know, just to give a highlight of all the stuff that goes into it, designing products well, you know, going, you know, through the totality of idea into, into stores. And so I think we've covered a lot of that here. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing that because I think a lot of people just don't, don't have that insight.

So it's been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. Yeah. So, okay, so we've already talked a little bit about, you know, how they can get access to the Kickstarter. But what are the best ways to find you, find your stuff, if they want to follow up and see all these things you're creating we're pretty easy to find we're forged gaming dot com so f-o-r-g-ed-g-d gaming dot com and then uh if you're if you're interested in in some pretty

pictures of pretty pictures of dice or dice towers you can find us on instagram at uh at forge dice awesome all right man well this has been a pleasure and uh i am uh sure that we will get to share more stories together at uh at a convention soon and good luck with the campaign hey thanks jeston It's great talking to you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. If you want to support the podcast, please rate, comment, and share on your favorite podcast platforms, such as iTunes, Stitcher, or whatever device you're listening on.

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