Thinking Out Loud with Alan Shlemon - Interview: Christopher Yuan – Holy Sexuality and the Gospel

Episode Date: June 11, 2019

Guest Host: Alan Shlemon Alan interviews Christopher Yuan about his new book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel: Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God’s Grand Story. Download the mp3...

Hey, welcome to Stand to Reason and the Stand to Reason broadcast. Oh, oh, oh, oh, office as I am today, I get to work with fine people and it's a privilege to do that. Well, today I get to have the privilege of having a special guest on the show to talk about his book. And I'm guessing actually a lot of our audience is probably already very familiar with our guest today. His name is Christopher Yuan. He is a Bible teacher at Moody Bible Institute. He has an MA in biblical exegesis, which is so cool to hear because actually a secret passion of mine is exegesis and hermeneutics and biblical interpretation because I just think actually a lot like what Greg says, that that's probably one of the most fundamental things that we as Christians can learn. And I think Greg says if

there's only one thing he could teach people, it would be the art and science of biblical interpretation because it's so fundamental to what we need to understand about the Bible and science of biblical interpretation, because it's so fundamental to what we need to understand about the Bible and about what God has in store for us in that. So anyways, so he has an MA in biblical exegesis from Wheaton, and he's got a doctor of ministry from Bethel Seminary. And I think most people know about Christopher mostly from his powerful testimony and journey from being a man who spent many years of his life satisfying same-sex desires and many other biblical, or I should say unbiblical desires, and then having God get a hold of him in a very amazing way. In fact, I'll probably ask him a little bit about that, so I'm not going to try to spoil that for you right now. But God got a hold of him and transformed him in an amazing and powerful way. And then now he spends his life serving God in equally amazing ways.

So that's really exciting. Now, his first book, which was Out of a Far Country, A Gay Son Journey to God, A Broken Mother's Search for Hope, he co-wrote this with his mother, Angela. And it's a book about his journey from, let's say, from unbelief and really the crazy life he was leading to a point where he was able to trust Christ as his Savior. And this book also includes alongside his journey, the journey that his mother went through, praying and hoping for her son to turn to God. And so it's, I think, a really unique book. And, of course, it's sort of a memoir of kind of what they went through. So very, very, very, very powerful.

Now, in his new book, which is the book that I'm going to be talking to him about today, it's called Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story, which really is an excellent follow-up to his first book because I think it unpacks a lot more details about what sexuality is supposed to look like, whether you're experiencing same-sex attraction or not. And this book really shows, I think, where Christopher Yuan landed after God got a hold of him and transformed him from the inside out. Now, I think a lot of the Stand to Reason audience in particular

is familiar with who Christopher is because he has been one of our featured speakers during the last season of our Rethink Apologetics conferences. And so if you're familiar with Rethink and what we do for these student conferences, you'll know that each year we have a different theme. And last year in our sort of theme of... Actually, now I'm trying to remember the title of that theme, but anyways, it doesn't matter. During that particular theme, we had Christopher Yuan as one of our featured speakers at the different cities that we had the conference in, and his presentation and the combination of his testimony and of his clear teaching and the exegesis that he provides, it was definitely my favorite talk. And my kids, who, by the way, were 11 and 13 at the time, also who attended

the conference said, man, that Christopher Yuan's talk is so powerful. And that's intense because I mentioned their age because Christopher Yuan's testimony is just, at least the one he gave at Rethink, is just very, how do I say, raw, but a powerful testimony of God's transforming power. So anyways, that's enough of my introduction about Christopher Yuan. I want to welcome Christopher to the show. Christopher, welcome to the Standard Reason broadcast. Good to hear your voice, Alan. Thanks for having me on. Oh, man, I am so glad, Christopher.

I miss seeing you because I got to see you several times during that course in which we were doing that series of Rethink. So I'm hoping in the future we'll have to kind of get you in on another season of Rethink conferences. Yes, yes. I think I will be back with you guys this coming series. Oh, okay, great. Yeah. Everybody's looking at me like, duh, Alan, you didn't know that? I'm like, no.

Well, it's a few months from now, but perfect time for people to sign up, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we'll be, yeah, that's right. That'll be great. Oh, I'm so glad. Well, I knew that that was at least in the works, but I guess, you know, people who are organizing the conference have already reached out to you. So that's wonderful news.

Hey, you know, so before we get started, I was trying to think about whether we had you on the show talking about your first book, Out of a Far Country. And the best that I can recollect is that we haven't had you on for that book. Yeah, not yet. And so before we dive into holy sexuality and the gospel, I was wondering if you could just give just kind of a brief summary of your testimony, and of course it doesn't have

to be as long as what you normally do at a Rethink conference, but just so people have a good sense of kind of who you are, where you've come from, and how God's brought you from where you were to who you are today. Definitely. You know, I wasn't raised in a Christian home, but wrestled with my sexual identity from a young age. I realized I had same-sex attraction I was exposed to pornography at a young age and that was the first time I realized I had these attractions but I didn't act on it I kind of stuck them down I was I'm born

in 1970 so in the 70s and even early 80s sexuality was not talked about in grade school or in public school or an idea. So I just didn't tell anyone. It wasn't until it was in my early 20s that I came out of the closet. I'm from Chicago, Ellen, and I moved to Louisville, Kentucky to become a dentist. I got accepted to graduate school. I was pursuing my doctorate in dentistry. And it was then that I came out of the closet. And after a year of dental

school, I decided to go home and break the news to my parents. Well, you know, we weren't Christians, so they didn't really have a framework of how to kind of, how to process, and especially Asians, we don't really talk about sex, sexuality that much. So it was quite a shock for them, and my mom thought she could control the situation, kind of a typical Asian tiger mom. She gave me an ultimatum, and she said, choose the family or choose this. Well, for me this wasn't a choice, and I left home. Devastated my mom, but through that crisis, God actually brought her to

faith. But I went in the opposite direction. And here's the funny thing that I want to kind of pause on. You know, Alan, we often hear, especially in these past few years from Hollywood, from media, from pop culture, from a secular world, that Christian parents cannot love their gay children. Well, I had the exact opposite experience. My parents were not Christian, and they couldn't love me. They rejected me, and it wasn't until they became Christian that they knew that they could do nothing other than to love me, as God loved us while we were sinners, while we were his enemies. So I was in the opposite direction. Unfortunately, while in the opposite direction. Unfortunately, while in dental school, I started doing drugs, started selling drugs.

I was actually eventually expelled from dental school, moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and I kept doing at that time what I knew how to do best, which was sell drugs. And I also want to be clear, not all gays and lesbians do drugs. Not all gay men are promiscuous. Some are, some are not, and that certainly is part of my story. And I have to, when I tell you, I've got to tell everyone every aspect of it, but the reason I do that is because I want to tell people that when you encounter Christ, He will impact every aspect of your life. So I began experimenting, you know, not only experimenting, doing drugs, selling drugs, and I was doing that in Atlanta. My parents had no clue that I was doing drugs, but they knew that

my biggest need wasn't that I needed to stop being in a same-sex relationship. That wasn't my biggest problem. But my biggest problem was that I did not know Christ, and I did not surrender to the Lord. So they prayed for that miracle. They enlisted over 100 prayer warriors. They came to visit me one time. I told them to get out. My dad gave me his Bible, and I threw it in the trash. I mean, that's how hardened I was to the Gospel and to Christ and anything to do with the Bible.

And they focused just on not their hopelessness, but upon the promises of God. And my mother began to pray a bold prayer that God would do whatever it takes to bring this prodigal son to Him. And she fasted every Monday for seven years, once even fasted 39 days on my behalf. Wow. And it just seemed like things were getting worse and worse. Wow. And it just seemed like things were getting worse and worse.

Well, God kind of finally did answer that prayer, but not in the way they expected. It was a bang on my door, and on my doorstep were 12 federal drug enforcement agents, Atlanta police, and two big German shepherd dogs. Jeez. So I was charged with the equivalent of 9.1 tons of marijuana. And so with that, I was facing 10 years to life. I mean, I thought I was going to, you know, I mean, we fool ourselves into thinking that no one's ever going to catch us. You know, no one's going to kind of find us. And, you know, I'm not harming anyone.

I'm doing it. I mean, we really just make, we believe the lies that Satan is telling us. I mean, of course I was harming people, but we can all justify things. Well, I found myself in jail, walking on the cell block, and passed by this garbage can, and I looked, and I saw on top of the trash, it was a Gideon's New Testament. I took it back to my cell block, and I began reading it. And it was, you know, at first I wasn't reading it for thinking that this is any special book. I just read it because I wanted to pass some time. But as we know, the book that we study from, that we base our faith and our life on, is not just ink on paper.

But as Scripture says, it's the very breath of God. It is God-breathed. It is Scripture. And it began to cut through my heart and heart. And actually, at first, it wasn't a pretty sight, because the heart is as steep as all else. So I'm thinking, this is not good news. Well, it got worse. I got news from the nurse a couple weeks later that I was HIV positive. And that was the rock bottom, the darkest of the darkest.

But God used that. A few days later, I was in my cell all by myself, and I looked up at the metal bunk above me while I was in bed, and someone had scribbled something, and it read, If you're bored, read Jeremiah 29, 11. For I know the plan that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. And I had no clue where that plan was going to take me, but God gave me enough faith and enough strength to get through that one day and the next and the next. And God initially began just convicting me of the idols that I had

in my life, obviously drugs. But within a few months, God delivered me from that bondage. God kept bringing to mind other idols, and probably the biggest one that I felt like I just couldn't let go of was my sexual identity. I kept reading through God's Word, and I realized that I had put my identity in the wrong thing. My whole world was gay. All my friends were gay. I lived in an apartment complex in midtown Atlanta that was 90% gay men. I worked out at a gay gym. I brought groceries at what we nicknamed the Gay Kroger. I mean, everything around me was gay, and the world was, and my feelings,

and everything inside of me was telling me and affirming me that this is who you are. But as I read God's Word, I realized that this isn't who you are, that my identity needs to be in Christ alone. We are created in God's image, Genesis 1, and if Jesus is the perfect image of God, then that is who we are. So that was really foundational for me and part of why I began that in my new book with identity. And then I also had this realization that maybe I and maybe many others were falling into this wrong paradigm, that we have pigeonholed ourselves into this wrong paradigm, that we have pigeonholed

ourselves into the wrong framework, that we think that our only option is either heterosexuality, homosexuality, or maybe bisexuality. But I realized that the Scripture was actually, you know, so the logic is often, well, homosexuality is wrong, so heterosexuality must be right. That kind of seems fairly logical, but as I was reading through Scripture, Genesis to Revelation, I realized that there were a lot of times that the Bible condemned a sexual sin that was heterosexual, whether it be sex before marriage, whether it be sex outside of marriage, adultery, whether it be promiscuity. So I realized that this term was too broad, and we lived in a world of infinite shades of gray, I like to say, not just 50. Yeah, right. But, you know, we have to be, especially as Christians, be razor-sharp, clear, and not fall into grayness, and provide exactly what God is calling us to. So I came up with this concept, what I call holy sexuality, and I only introduced that in my new book, just as a very, very short chapter,

and I knew that I wanted to flesh that out more. But I got out of prison. I applied to Moody Bible Institute. I actually never got my bachelor's before going to dental school, so I had to go back and get my bachelor's and went on to get my master's and got my doctorate and wrote that book with my mother. We wrote it together. My mother wrote chapter one, she wrote chapter two.

They're alternating chapters, and that came out in 2011. But that was when I introduced that concept of holy sexuality. And finally, just this past year, I finished that big labor of love. Yeah. Gosh, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I've probably heard your testimony at least a dozen times, and I'm just never, I'm always in awe by, you know, how God brought you out of that world, and also really in awe of how faithful your mom was to be persistent in prayer for so long.

I'm just amazing. And something that you said towards the beginning of that story, you said, you know, oftentimes we hear about how Christian parents are the ones who don't love their children who identify as gay and lesbian. And you said, you know, this is the opposite for you. said, you know, this is the opposite for you. And I'm just so encouraged to hear that because, you know, being a person who often speaks on the subject, I often hear all the horror stories of how Christian parents have done it wrong. But it's so refreshing to hear how your mother, you know, did it right in this case. So, yeah, praise the Lord for that. So it sounds like to me then that after you had finished writing Out of a Far Country, that you had in your mind that you did want to flesh out this concept of holy sexuality.

Is that right? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, you know, it was just initially, and I mean, the important thing is, you know, what do you mean by holy sexuality? That's, you know, the first question. I mean, that's the title of my book, Holy Sexuality in the Gospel. What does that mean? What does it sound like? And I think, I know sometimes people have talked about, you know, sexuality and the divine or whatever, but that's kind of more of a mystical, kind of a spiritual, postmodern, or almost, you know,

way to connect with God through sex, and that's not what I mean, because that's actually quite pagan in that many of the pagan religions in ancient times, they use sex and sexuality in a sense to worship God, and that's definitely not what I mean. What I mean by holy sexuality is where this is God's calling for all of us. I mean, holiness in the Old Testament and the New Testament really meant being set apart, that we are set apart from the world, and we're going to be different from the world. And especially we can look at that today, but I don't think that's really even unique to today. I mean, we can kind of bemoan what's going on in our culture today, but to be honest, I almost look like we're not that much far different from first

century, you know, the Greco-Roman world, where Jesus came during that time. Of course, he first was initially ministering to the Jew and wasn't ministering to the Greco-Roman world, but Paul, who was the apostle to the Gentiles, did. But that's, you know, we have to be set apart. And the holy sexuality is, again, the frustration of this heterosexual-homosexual paradigm, because obviously homosexuality, whether it's the relationships that's sinful, whether it's the desire that's sinful, the temptations that one might experience are rooted in the false, so that's not God's will. But how about heterosexuality?

Because, again, that seems like the next logical step. Well, then, that's what we need to be. However, heterosexuality, first of all, is a secular term that was rooted in a kind of romantic period during the mid-1800s. German psychologists, they didn't have a term. We knew the concept, you know, where men and women would be sexually intimate. But then, on the other hand, sometimes men and men would be sexually intimate, or women and women.

There was no term for that. We knew the concept. We didn't have a term for it. So they came up with a term. But what's interesting was they didn't just come up with a term. So they came up with a term, but what's interesting was they didn't just come up with a term. They came up with a term that was then conflated with a new category of humanity. So that really confused the issues more.

But it also was not precise enough, at least when it comes to biblical sexuality, because when it comes at least, sexual relationships, God's calling is pretty high. It's to set us apart in that sexual intimacy is only reserved for marriage, and marriage as defined by the Bible has always been between a man and a woman. But that also isn't sufficient enough. And by the way, marriage between a man and a woman, that is a form of heterosexual relationship, but it's not representative of all heterosexual relationships. So that's why I was like, okay, that wasn't, that term heterosexual isn't precise enough, but also it says nothing about what if you're not married, or what if you're not married yet, how should you live? And obviously, looking through Scripture, it is that we need to be sexually abstinent.

So I came up with this phrase to mean, holy sexuality means, quite simply, chastity and singleness and faithfulness in marriage. Those are the two paths that God has laid out for us, for us to live, to be faithful to God in regards to our sexuality. And so I kind of fleshed out that concept more in my new book. That's great. So, yeah, so just to repeat this, so holy sexuality entails chastity and singleness, faithfulness and marriage. And you would say that this is a principle, this is the principle that would guide everyone, every believer,

to follow. This would not be a principle that only applies to someone who struggles with same-sex attraction or who experiences same-sex attraction, right? Exactly. Because I think we hear today, you know, there's kind of maybe a growing movement among Christians where they will identify or continue to identify as gay, but they realize that that term isn't sufficient enough, especially if they realize that same-sex relationships are sinful. So then they have to kind of add another modifier, another adjective to the term gay, and they

say they're gay celibate Christian, they will say. Now, to be clear, I don't identify as that, because I find that wrong. It's problematic. I don't identify as that because I find that wrought with, it's problematic. But, I mean, just to, if you're using a term and then you realize, well, I need to use another modifier to modify that modifier, that kind of could be a red flag to say that maybe I need to reconsider the terms that I'm using. So there's this growing kind of movement, I guess, among especially younger Christians who think that it's okay, it's helpful, they will say, to use that term. And for them, they say, so for people who don't have same-sex attractions who are opposite, then they can either get married or they can be single.

But then, so these gay celibate Christians say that people who have same-sex attraction can only be single for the rest of their life, and I don't agree with that. I think that marriage is an option for everyone, especially in light of a sovereign God. I mean, you know, you and me and Greg and everyone at Stand to Reason, we all believe in a sovereign God. God is able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. He is able to do the impossible. And what might seem impossible to an individual who has same-sex attractions, who thinks, it's not possible for me to ever have attraction toward the opposite sex,

God does the impossible. And not that it is the norm, but I have seen in some situations where God has provided not necessarily sexual attractions for many different women, but has provided desire and affections for that one woman that God has provided to be their spouse of the opposite sex. I call that holy sexuality, which also plays into the reason why I use holy, because holiness is not something that we muster up from our own selves and kind of do on our own strength, because that's kind of what works, righteousness. But it is something that is truly a gift from God.

Holiness for everyone is a gift from God. And so when God provides that as a surprise, it's, man, thanks, God, that's a gift. Yeah. Man, so well put. Chastity and singleness, faithfulness in marriage. I like it because it's also just a nice, simple, well-packaged message, very straightforward, and again, as you said, applies to everyone. We need to take a break here in just a second. But after the break, I want to ask you to sort of unpack these notions of heterosexuality and homosexuality. Because as I read that chapter in your book, I learned so much from just recognizing how this is a false paradigm that we as Christians have kind of inadvertently adopted. So we're going to take a break.

We'll be right back with more from Christopher Yuan and his book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel. What does a silo of soybeans or an old 1987 Nissan truck have to do with apologetics? When donated, both enabled STR to provide Christians like you with the resources you need to gain confidence in defending your faith. STR's partnership with iDonate makes donating non-cash items easy. You can give personal items like vehicles, stock, jewelry, gift cards, and more. iDonate takes care of selling the items and gives the cash proceeds to STR.

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And Christopher, we were just talking about holy sexuality, and you kind of unpacked sort of what that meant. I love that very simple, clear definition. And I was alluding to the fact that I was really impressed by this notion of how heterosexuality and homosexuality really are unhelpful terms and categories for the Christian paradigm. And you do a really good job of unpacking sort of where those terms came from and why they're problematic for us as Christians. I was wondering if you can kind of share a little bit about that.

Yeah, definitely. You know, I kind of mentioned just a little bit ago how these terms, not just heterosexual but homosexual, it didn't occur, we didn't have these words in the English language or any language. And maybe I want to make a side note, because some of your listeners may have heard, maybe from gay-affirming people or gay-affirming Christians or mainline denominations, where they will say, the word homosexual didn't occur in the Bible until the early 1900s, with one of the Bible translations,

the Revised Standard Version. And so therefore, there wasn't that content before. Now, see, this is where I always tell my students at Moody, false teaching always has truth. It's grounded in some truth. It can be 90% true, but it's that 10% that will get you. Yeah, that's why it's appealing. Of course.

I mean, imagine if something was 90% false, no one would believe it. That's how Satan works. He works, he's very deceptive. How did he tempt Jesus in the wilderness? Of course, he used Scripture. I mean, he actually used truth and then twisted it just a little bit at the end. You know, his conclusion is what was the false teaching.

So in the same way, yes, it is true that the word homosexual, heterosexual did not occur in the Bible, in any English Bible, until the early 1900s. But then the mistake they make is, so then therefore there wasn't the concept of homosexuality or heterosexuality as we know it today. And that's utterly false. The concept was there, actually, from ancient times. It's just there was no term for it. Like many languages, Greek and Hebrew like to use euphemisms, especially Hebrew likes to use euphemisms. In other words, instead of saying someone died, we can say someone slept, you know, slept with their fathers. Or instead of saying they had sex, we would say they lay together or they knew each other. So we knew

the concept, but it's untrue to say that we didn't know the concept. So then back to kind of what I was talking about with the term really coming from German psychiatry, the world of psychiatry. What they did was so interesting. They didn't simply name the concept, you know, just a man and a man sleeping together, a woman. But they really came up, in a sense, with a new category of personhood. So we have, we're male and female. Now we're either black or white or, you know, we have the different races. or white or or you know what we have the different races and also a new category is this category of sexuality which we totally sleep scene played out today in

politics and in essence they're all equivalent and kind of what I was you know pushing back through the first few chapters of my book is we need to really reconsider is this truly something that should describe, specifically, does sexuality and our sexual desires and our sexual behavior, should that really describe who we are, but how we, or should it describe how we are? And that really helps them to kind of clear away that this concept maybe isn't something that is grounded in Scripture, concept maybe isn't something that is grounded in Scripture, especially when it is grounded in a secular understanding of who we are. I mean, what we call secular anthropology, anthropology meaning the study of humanity. You know, first of all, secular anthropology believes that there is no God, and if there

is no God, then we need to kind of create our own meanings. Remember I talked about how this came about in the mid-1800s during the Romantic period? And the Romantic period was all about, and your listeners probably know the Romantic period about where art really flourished during that time. Music, I grew up pretty young as a classical pianist And so all those, Chopin, even Mozart Their music was so emotive Getting in touch with your emotions Because they were kind of coming out of the Industrial Revolution

And so everything was so kind of black and white And scientific and logical And so we need to come back in touch with our emotions. So in essence, and also that was also moving out of kind of the... They were rejecting God and rejecting the Church. I mean, first they were really rejecting the Church, but they threw out the baby with the bathwater, so they also rejected God.

And so if there's no God, then there's no creator, and also there's no actual purpose orientation to be who we are to really blossom and grow. So, yeah, and you talk about how, as a result of that, that these terms then, and I wrote down this quote because I just love the way you put it. You said these terms turned desire into personhood, experience into ontology. Yes. And kind of like what you just said there, it's no more about this is how I am, but who I am. Exactly. I mean, to me, this is so fundamental to our understanding of why the community of people who identify as LGBT talk about this is who I am. It's not just what I do.

It's who I am. Yep. And, you know, I know your listeners probably have a co-worker or a friend or maybe even a loved one who identifies as gay and ask them next time. You know, I mean, of course,

you know, it'd be something that I would ask someone who you know well. You know, tell me more about when you, you know, I know what, you know, what gay means, but I want to hear from you. When you say I am gay, what do you mean? And I, they will not say this is what I do, what I feel.

They will say this is who I am. So that, this use from, this shift from what to who or how to who has created a radically distorted view of personhood. And I think as Christians, we really need to grasp that first. And the reason is because when we jump to, and we've all made this mistake, you know, we see this as sinful behavior, so what do we want to do? We want to warn people of sinful behavior. And so we jump to that, and we say, well, you know, what you're doing is sinful. Your behavior is sinful. But to be honest, and I get this, I thought this the same way before I came to Christ, and I thought what I heard was not what I'm doing is sin, but I heard is my

person. I couldn't separate what I was doing or my desires from who I was. So my whole person is utterly irreprehensible. And that's why it's so offensive and personal to gays and lesbians when we approach it first as sinful behavior. And I'm not saying we should not call it sin or sinful behavior, but I think we need to take a few steps back and address the presuppositions, the wrong presuppositions they have, before we can address that. And honestly, I think we should, you know, and I talk about this later in my book, but I think that before we even address the morality aspect, you know, first address the identity, but even before we address the morality aspect, I think we need to be talking about the existence of God. We need to talk about

the existence of not just God, but a God who revealed himself through his word, and who expressed his complete love for us by giving his son. So those are things that I think will be more important than really addressing, first, the morality aspect. Right. And because people now have adopted this idea, it's about who I am, not how I am, this leads really to a practical challenge. And that is, as you're talking about, you know, when we have friends and family and coworkers or whatever who identify as gay or lesbian, to them being gay is an identity. Yep. conversations with them difficult, because as you said, if the conversation does come up and you start talking about homosexuality, then they're going to interpret rejecting homosexual behavior as rejecting them as the person. Exactly. And so I know you were just kind of touching on this,

but I kind of wanted you to unpack a little bit about like, well, what would be, like, how do you recommend then we approach this challenge? Because as you said, virtually everyone, I mean, whenever I teach on the subject, I ask people to raise their hands. How many of you here know someone who identifies in this way? And virtually 99% of people raise their hands. And the other 1% are just lying, probably. Yeah, right. But, yeah, this is a practical question for all of us. What can we say then, or what practical advice would you have when we're

in that conversation, if it does come up? I'm not saying we brought it up unnecessarily. Of course. But we're in that conversation and they're asking us, well, what do you think about homosexual behavior? Or what do you think about homosexuality? And is there any way that we can sort of avoid unnecessarily just offending them? Yeah. Great question. You know, here's the reality, Alan. I would say maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago,

because I've been a Christian for about 20 years, and probably it would have been maybe 40, 50 percent, you know, maybe a majority, but I mean, it wasn't... I don't think everyone would have said, you know, maybe majority, but I mean, it wasn't, I don't think everyone would have said, you know, that would be something that I would be facing or could very potentially face, you know, someone asked me, do you think homosexuality is sin? But today, that's something that every Christian will face multiple times in their life, you know, maybe in a year. So this is not something that is just uncommon anymore. It is very common. So people will ask. I think, to me, this is probably one of the biggest stumbling blocks

for people to come to know Christ or to even consider faith. And it is, you know, our Christian's kind of hateful view against gays. So the question will come out, come up. And it was, it will be something like, you know, do you think gays are going to hell? Do you think homosexuality is sin? And here's where we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place, because we know we can't lie. Right. But then we know if we are honest and say, yes, it is sin, you know, then automatically, you know, we've just put a wall up,

and people are just going to shut us out or not listen to us. So I've really thought about this a lot, and I did that while I was studying through scriptures, particularly the Gospels, and I looked how Jesus, how he responded to questions which were very pointed. Now, you know, we think, you know, these people are trying to corner us. Well, look at Jesus. The Pharisees and the Sadducees, they were trying to corner him. If Jesus said yes, they had an answer for that. If he said no, they had another answer.

They really were testing him, Scripture even says, and they wanted to corner him to say something wrong, and they could say, see? And Jesus, many times, first of all, he knew their heart. He was God. But he did not answer every question. Sometimes he was silent. Sometimes he answered a question with a question. Sometimes he didn't even answer their question, but he answered a different question, a more important question. And I think Jesus recognized that many times the people asking the question don't even know what's the right question to ask, and what they're doing is they're actually asking the wrong question.

So Jesus pointed back to what is the right question, the kingdom of God and the gospel, and would actually point in that direction. So in the same way, I think we can learn from that, because ultimately, it's not the most important thing to tell people that this particular sin is sin. Because even if, let's say miraculously, I convince them of it, that's not going to save them. Right. So I want to point my conversation to Jesus Christ and to the existence of God. So for example, I mean, one way, I think deflecting is okay, because I'm not deflecting to totally ignore it, but I'm deflecting to hopefully point them into a deeper conversation about God.

So one kind of maybe easy way of deflection would be to say, you know, I value our friendship more than debating all the time. Can we focus on our similarities rather than our differences? That can be kind of a very, very easy way if you're not very prepared, but if you're prepared to have a deeper conversation, one way could simply be, you know, if they ask, do you think this is sin? I would maybe say, I know you don't even believe in God, so why does it matter what God thinks? So let's first talk about the existence of God, and that's where it comes into all the great things that the SDR is teaching us about how do you then talk about these things in a very redemptive, not a confrontational, argumentative way, but to help people to maybe see what they believe might not be so much on solid ground. So have those conversations and point them to that first,

the existence of God, the reality of Jesus Christ and His Word, and of course generally about biblical anthropology in that we're all sinners first. I mean, sometimes you can even say, you know, let's just, for argument's sake, set this one issue on the back burner. Let's just say, for argument's sake, that homosexuality was not a sin. Of course, I don't believe that,

but just say, for argument's sake, the gay individual is still a sinner. So the reality still stands. And I'll just say, I know you don't believe in God, but this is the message of all Christianity. We're not picking any person out to be worse than others. When people say, are gays going to hell? Well, according to what I believe, Scripture says that actually we all deserve God's wrath, but a loving God is one who actually took that wrath upon Himself,

and when we believe in Him, that's when the wrath of God is satisfied in Christ. So I'm always pointing, hopefully, to the message of the Gospel, to Christ, and not just picking out this one particular sin, or people who identify as gay as somehow worse than others, because at the end of the day, we're all broken, we're all sinners, and we all need Christ. Yeah, I like that a lot. That's really practical. I appreciate that. I especially like the idea of sort of looking at Jesus's approach and tactics and sort of seeing what we can glean from that and then applying it to sort of our modern conversations. I think it's a great idea. were to accept your view about ethics, morality, or sexuality. And even if they were to make a behavioral change, well, their eternal destiny would still be in jeopardy, right?

So what's the big, you know, how is that helping anything? So I like your point about bringing them to sort of the bigger question about the kingdom of God and where they stand with unbelief in God. So that's really great. I appreciate that. You know, it occurred to me, by the way, when we were talking about or when you were telling me about heterosexuality and homosexuality and these sort of secular categories, it made me think about the fact that perhaps this is where advocates of pro-gay theology go wrong. And it's the secular worldview that begins with the idea there is no God. And then they go from that to creating these categories of homosexuality and heterosexuality, which, of course, are unbiblical categories. And then that's how they reason to the place where they get to saying, look, this is about who I am, not how I am. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like advocates of pro-gay theology are starting with that presumption that being gay is who I am, not how I am, which is based on this secular presupposition that God does not exist. Yeah. of pro-gay theology are starting with this idea that, well, this is who I am, therefore probably God made me that way, and then they have to figure out, okay, how am I going to adapt my theology to fit my experience?

Exactly. And then they go and try to, you know, reinterpret the biblical text and stuff like that. Would you say that that's an adequate or appropriate assessment about, you know, advocates of pro-gay theology and sort of where they're starting from, this faulty presupposition? Yes, you're exactly right with that assessment. Like, for example, Matthew Vines, he wrote God and the Gay Christian, which was basically rehashing James Bronson's book, and kind of made it more readable. I mean, and he's a winsome guy. He's actually pretty, he's a sharp guy.

Went to Harvard for about three semesters, never finished, and he went on to then write his book. But he begins from chapter one, and he says that this is the core of who we are. And I will say no. I mean, actually, as I discuss in my new book, I even talk about how sexuality is really temporary. It's only a here and now reality. And this is the logic.

You know, you think, well, how in the world did you get that? Coming back to Scripture, in particular Matthew 22, where Jesus says that there will be no marriage in heaven. Well, if there is no marriage in heaven, and of course the reason why there is no marriage in heaven is because marriage here on earth between a man and a woman is just a shadow of the ultimate reality, as Paul says in Ephesians 5, of Christ being wed to his bride, which is the body of Christ, the Church. And so since that will be actualized, there's no more reason for the shadow. So Matthew 22, Jesus is communicating that there will be no marriage in heaven. Well, let's kind of then follow the logic.

If there is no marriage in heaven, and if sex is only reserved for marriage between a man and a woman, then there will be no sex in heaven either. And then let's follow the logic further, if there's no sex then there will would not be any sexual desires. Why? Because there will not be any unfulfilled desires in heaven. And so if there's no, you know, sexual desires, well, that means that there will be no sexuality in heaven. So sexuality, that doesn't then mean that we will have no desires, but all the desires, even that maybe today people feel, or even in marriage, that are being fulfilled, that are good desires, and desires that feel good when they are fulfilled in marriage,

those desires, as good as they are, as good as they feel, will pale in comparison to the ecstasy that we will be experiencing when we are in the full glory of God. But anyway, so my point is, no marriage in heaven, no sex in heaven, and no sexual desires, no sexuality. So really, sexuality is just a here and now thing. It's a here and now reality that is ultimately pointing us to our union with Christ in consummation. Yeah, so well put. Thank you. Gosh, I'm looking at the clock here, and I'm just feeling frustrated that I won't have enough time to ask what I want to ask. So I'm going to ask sort of a question that really satisfies my own personal question here.

But, you know, often when I'm talking about the subject of homosexuality and gender, you know, the concept of masculinity and femininity come up. Yeah. And I know the Bible doesn't speak a ton about being transgender, for example, but whenever it addresses crossing gender boundaries, it seems to address it in a negative way. So Deuteronomy, I think it's 22, and some New Testament passages as well. But then at the end of that, I always have to qualify what I'm saying. And I try to reassure the audience. I say, look, saying that you're male or female does not mean that we're supposed to adopt typical American gender, you know, ideas of masculinity and femininity. In other words,

if you're a boy and you don't like football and sports and blowing things up and whatever, it doesn't mean you're less masculine, right? Right. You could enjoy playing the flute or art or whatever, and you're no less a boy. And likewise, if you're a girl and you don't like shopping or Taylor Swift or sappy chick flicks, that doesn't make you less feminine, right? Right. shopping or Taylor Swift or sappy chick flicks, that doesn't make you less feminine, right? Right. You could be a girl and enjoy, you know, spending time with dad in the garage while he works on his car, or maybe you like sports or fishing or whatever, and that's okay. So we don't want to take our cues about masculinity and femininity from our culture, but then I'm always feeling

like I don't have a good way to explain, well then, what should we be looking to? Like, what does biblical masculinity and femininity look like? It's not defined by typical American gender roles, you know? So what are some essential components to being male or female, and where would we look to get that kind of answer from? Yeah, I think, you know, on these conversations around gender, masculinity, femininity, etc., and culture, and scripture, I think it's really important for us to at least realize kind of different frameworks, categories, when we're thinking about this, and also kind of comparing it to the secular world as well. So obviously the first one that we want to start is sex.

Not sex as in the action, but sex as in the noun. That sex is male and female. This is grounded actually right in Genesis 1, verse 27, the Imago Dei verse, where it says, you know, that God created him in his own image. In his image, God created him, male and female, he created them. So clearly, this male-female is talked about, and actually it's communicated in a way how there's a correlation with the image of God, and also it's communicating that it is essential

to who we are, just as the Im communicating that it is essential to who we are, just as the Imago Dei is essential to who we are. So male-female sex is not only a physical, biological, genetic reality, but it is a spiritual reality. So that's really important. So that's the first framework that we need to think about. The second framework is a secular framework, and it's the framework of gender. Now, this is where it gets confusing, because we have often, at least for the past several decades, equated sex and gender,

male and female. But now, recently, in the past decade or so, we have now split the two, recently in the past decade or so, we have now split the two, where sex is just more biological, physical, and gender is psychological. So in other words, I feel like I'm a woman, even though my genetics and biology is male. So that's what the world now called transgender or jet having gender dysphoria whereas you know gender and tax do not uh... is that they're they're incongruent so that gender so first first category of first framework is fax mail if you look at biological that physical that genetic that

spiritual as well but then the second framework is gender which which is what you feel about, what you think about yourself, and that's purely a subjective reality, which is interesting why the world puts a subjective reality over against a very objective reality. But again, that's a very postmodern thing to do. But then the third category is then what you're talking about, masculinity and femininity. And these are really secular, or I'm sorry, these are social categories, social constructs, because like you were saying, here in America, how we would define masculine is quite different than how we might define masculine in Asia. Quite different. So those, we have to admit, masculinity and femininity

are more social constructs, and therefore also subjective. Now the fourth category that I want to bring up is one that the world doesn't acknowledge, but it's one that we do, those of us who hold to the Bible, and it's something that I would call, and has been discussed previously, is biblical manhood and biblical womanhood. What does it mean to be a man, you know, according to Scripture? Now, of course, we ground those things in Scripture. And so anyway, having thought of those four categories then helps us to see that there are these frameworks, and unfortunately what the world does is they say, well, masculinity

is culturally defined, and then here's the, and I will agree with that, that is true. But here is where then the mistake is made. They say, so therefore, male and female is also culturally defined. You see that? I mean, that's the whole, in a sense, just completely abolishing the clear binary system between man and woman, male and female. But if we as Christians can at least discern and see how it is true that masculinity and femininity are more culturally defined and are more social constructs. But then talk about how the male and female, and of course, if you're talking to an unbeliever, you don't have to go to the spiritual aspect or Genesis 127, but at least say,

biologically, I do not believe that doctors assign gender at birth. I think that's basically science. They don't assign anything, they just observe. It's an observation. They're not assigning anyone, they're just observing one's genetics, one's physical characteristics, one's sexual organs, and they are just recording what they see. So anyway, I mean, there's a lot of things that I say, and I do address some of that about how male and female is a clear category, sex, male and female in Scripture, and how that's correlated with the image of God. But anyway, with that said, you know, we know that, what are we going to put more emphasis on? Because the world, again, this is going back to how it was going back to the secular philosophies, how they elevated what I think to be true.

Because honestly, I see transgenderism as not a battle for what is male or female. What I see transgenderism truly at the core, when we get at the presupposition, is this, that it's a battle for what is true, for a battle for what is real. Because post-modernism and coming out of romanticism and existentialism, it's really communicating, you are what you feel, you are what you think. And God is saying, no, I am telling who you are because I created you.

So truth is not something that we, because I feel something, then it's true, because I think something that is true, because Scripture is saying something quite contrary, that is, the heart is deceitful above all else who can know it. And also Paul says in Romans that do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind, that I can't trust my thoughts, I can't trust my feelings, and therefore I need to submit it to God. And so therefore, we're not going to put my psychology above my biology, but what God has created me to be, that I need to not trust my mind because we all have a darkened mind, Paul says in Ephesians 5. And so that, I think, helps us then to better understand, you know, this kind of confusion around sex, gender, masculinity, femininity, and then manhood and womanhood.

Right, right. Man, that's so great. So basically, I was looking at, so the biblical, the first and fourth categories, I'm sorry, the first and fourth frameworks are the ones that the culture doesn't really accept. They just go to basically two and three, which is the secular gender notion, which is completely subjective. Yep. And, of course, the social construct of masculinity and femininity. Which is subjective. and, of course, the social construct of masculinity and femininity. Which is subjective.

Right. So we just need to make sure we emphasize the biblical, you know, Imago Dei and then, of course, the biblical manhood and womanhood, which come from Scripture. Amen. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Well, you know, Christopher, I can't believe it's been an hour.

And so we have to wrap this up. I so appreciate you taking the time today just to be able to spend it with us and share a little bit about your book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel by Christopher Yuan. I strongly encourage you to get it. I read the whole thing. I loved it. Every part of it is good. I think it's required reading for every believer today, especially in our culture that's just so highly sexualized.

So, Christopher Yuan, I appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks for having me on, Alan. Oh, you bet. I look forward to seeing you again, brother. Amen. You too. All right.

Hey, that's all I got for you today with Stand to Reason. Hope to talk to you guys soon. And as Greg says, give them heaven.