THIS CAR POD! with Doug DeMuro & Friends! - Downfall of Tesla, TRX Replacement, Where are the EV Convertibles and Coupes? | EP05

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

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Hello and welcome to this car pod. I'm Kenan. I'm Felipe. And today we're going to talk about cars, starting with the news. And the biggest news story of the week, obviously, is Tesla layoffs. Tesla is laid off. 10% of its staff. Some key employees have either left or gotten laid off. They're not really clear, but regardless, some people have left who are big Tesla people.

The stock is down so far this year, 36%. things are not looking as great for Tesla as they once were. It's interesting. Elon Musk in the last couple of days on Twitter has talked a lot about how autonomous driving will be like the real lynch pin for whether Tesla's successful or not. I don't think that's a great strategy. But they've kind of, deliveries in Q1 were down a little bit year every year.

Demand in China and some other markets is easing. In the U.S., they're still delivering more cars than ever, that grew, but they made some big bets on, we're going to keep delivering more and more and more. I have to imagine that their profit margins aren't huge on these cars. Right. So they need to sell full self-driving. They came out with a subscription full self-driving instead of spending $12,000.

You can do it for $9 a month, which massively changes economics. I'm not surprised they have to lay off people. A lot of tech companies have. It does seem like when I hear stuff like this, it does seem like the major advantage that Tesla once had, which is an enormous first mover advantage of being this incredibly far ahead car company and tech company

started to we wrote a little bit when they switching to monthly subscription for FSD when the big update for the model 3's headlights and other stuff that most people can't even really tell we're talking I've been seeing a few room drive around you you start to realize that the big stuff the stuff that Tesla showed up and they show up with the Model S and it's like wow

and then the X shows up with Gold Wing doors wow and then the three shows up at the price point it does. Those giant advantages are not where they once were. And you start to wonder if Tesla is starting to kind of become a car company, just like a regular old car company. I think that they're suffering right now because they're, I think that their stock is still viewed as a tech company stock,

not a car company stock. Right. For the amount of cars they produce, their market cap is insane. Insane. And in Q4, a third of cars delivered and new cars in San Diego County were Tesla's. So their market share in the U.S. is rising. But analysts and stockholders are expecting tech company growth where there's insane margins,

a ton of upfront investment, but then kind of Costco down. And that's not true at a car company. It's just hard to scale at that transition point. It's hard to scale at any level, but it's especially hard to scale when you're already scaled to this point. If a third of new cars here are already Tesla's, you're not going to get to 50%. Now, there's a lot of the rest of the country to still conquer, et cetera. But there's a, I've always felt, and everybody always kind of felt the company was overvalued

from a market cap perspective from the stock price, the growth would never. There would be something that would kind of change the trajectory of the company. And maybe we're seeing that. Now, there have been other times where people have made that assessment before, and they were wrong. And you saying that you don't think it's going to be that self-driving is not the thing to bet on. If you had told me in 2011, is electric a car upstart from California going to build electric cars and take on everybody? Is that a thing to bet on? I would have said no.

So you never really know what's going to happen. Right. They, of course, have downplayed the layoffs that, hey, you know, we're just right-sizing. We're getting it. We do this every few years. We're getting into a better position for the next round. But you do start to see some cracks in the armor just in general. Sales are slowing. The cars are just so ubiquitous that the coolness factor is starting to wear a little bit. And I think that in the end, when the book is written, the focus on cyber truck at this time in Tesla's history is probably not the right focus. It's a weird vehicle that has a niche market. and they probably could have had more success with something else. Like redesigning the Model Y. Yeah, a redesigned Model Y or even a larger Model Y that isn't a Model X that is at a more affordable, reasonable price point, somewhere between those two cars. Something that isn't a pickup truck that looks like a pro truck.

Which, by the way, I think the cyber truck is super cool, and I love seeing them around. I legitimately do. But if investors are looking for scale and growth, it's an interesting concept. Software will be kind of, I get why Elon Musk is betting big on that, and especially communicating that out. I think that to tech company investors is what they're looking to hear. We'll just see what happens.

On the subject of Tesla slightly, Kenan, you have something interesting for us. Yes. In a different country, Maserati has come out with a convertible version of the Grand Turismo called the Grand Cabrio, just like the last one. But what's interesting is they're offering an electric version. So you can get a gasoline-powered car called the Trafeo. And this is the Fogieri. Forgore. Thank you for correcting my Italian.

That's the native speaker. Fascinating car in that, you know, crazy amount of horsepower. So 818, 818, thank you. A thousand foot pounds of torque. A thousand foot pounds. Three electric motors. Do we know what the range will be? So it'll be about 280 miles is what they're claiming.

But, of course, it being a Mazzarotti, it'll probably be thirstyer than you're expected. It'll probably be a little bit less than that. And the 280 number they're quoting is probably the European cycle. In the U.S., it's always a little bit lower, so maybe 240. But possibly worth it for 818 horse. a thousand pound feet. No pricing. I assume $3 million.

The fact that the regular Grand Tourism is despite looking identical is $200. The reason I brought this up as a Tesla analog is because years ago Tesla showed us the Roadster and we thought that was going to be the first electric sports car and instead somehow the first electric sports car that isn't a million dollars like the Rim McNevara.

It's going to be a Moserai that looks like the previous one. It's going to be a recycled monster. Another one. Yeah. It's exactly right. And that there's a gas version of. It's not like it's something crazy like, wow, this is your opportunity for first, no, you can buy a gas one today and a dealer for

20 grand off sticker. So, Maserati, you can hold your heads high. Yeah, we did we beat Tesla. No, it does sound pretty cool. 818 horsepower is pretty cool. In a convertible, it is, I am curious to how the market will receive this car in that, like one of the reason you buy a Maserati is like the

emotion of the sound is the Italian driving experience. You take away the engine completely. I will say Maserati is doing it the right way by offering both because we're going to find out quite quickly what the market wants. Does the market want that all-out acceleration that the electric car can provide or does the market want the sound, which I suspect more they do? And Aston Martin has shelved all plans for EVs and said, yeah, and said that they're going to just focus on gas cars for a while because there's no market

demand in their segment. Yeah, right. And I think this, I think this will also be a big signal to Ferrari too about like the direction they need to go with their cars because Ferrari is committing to hybrids. You know, that's the thing. And I think that's probably where they, should stay. The engine is just such an important part of the Italian car experience. So this will be an interesting exercise. We'll see. We'll see where... You'll have one on test at some point. We'll see where pricing ends up. We'll see what I've got it. You know the interesting part here?

They announced a coup like months ago. Is that true? And I have no idea. On the subject of Italian car situations, Filippo, give us the funniest news out of Italy this week. So this is what you see on the screen here is the Alfa Romeo, what they were going to call

the Milano. By the way, this is different from the toenail. This is notably smaller than Tonale, yes, which they really should have done some market testing around. So this is like, this is never going to come to the U.S., or at least they have no plans for it to come to the U.S. It's like a subcompact luxury crossover. But they were going to call it de Milano. All other Alfa-Meyos are named Italian names. Milan is, of course, a city northern Italy.

The Italian government said that in order to name it that under Italian law, it needs to be built in Italy. Italy has a law that's intended to make it so that you can't call cheese Padamigiano-Rijano if it's not made in Italy. There's a bunch of cultural heritage law. California wine, you can only say that it's from Napa if it's actually, or whatever. Sure. Yeah. There are these rules. But the Italian government came out fiercely against this being that if it's not built in Italy.

And obviously their goal was, please build it in Italy or at least like come to some agreement here. They had been in negotiations. They hadn't conceptualized the idea of just changing the name. Guess what they're calling it? now, Kenan. Is it the junior? It is the junior. The junior. So the Italian government stepped in. God only knows how much marketing effort they put behind calling it the

Milano. That, you know, they were going to drop all these things. The brochures were printed this week. The brochure say Milano. Of course. The press launch, a little name tags say the Bilano. I wish I was at that launch. That'd be a great thing to have. There was no Milano. The funny thing is, of course, Alfa

has previously had a car called the Milano. They were just taking a name out of their past. The government wouldn't let him do it. So they're going to call it the junior, using the letter which of course does not even exist. Correct. That's so true. They're really sticking it to the government. You want to change the name? We're just going to take a letter you don't even have. Their press release is one of the best.

I can't believe that the PR department allowed this press release. Yeah, the press release was bitter. They were like, the government said this. They're insane. But in the spirit, the word they used was like in the spirit of cooperation or good faith or something. There's obviously some political tensions in Italy as they're all. always are. But it's just, this card came out.

And they're renaming it. Yeah. It's going to be built in Poland. So that's the issue. Because it's built in Poland, it's not the Italy. How much money do they say building something in Poland instead of Italy? They had a number, which is the number that they gave. So who knows?

But I think they said that it would cost, the car would have to cost $15,000 more if they built in Italy. I just, 15 grand a car for Italian. Alford. A male had a history of ones of trying to build a car in the Italian South where labor is cheaper. It's called the Alpha Sud. And it did not go well. So I think that they're a little reticent. Yeah, I know.

But come on. I mean, 15 grand a car to build an Italy. That is insane. Second Alpha Sud reference I've made this week by the last. This country has 12% unemployment. They would give anything for a factory. And they tried. They did what they could.

And now it's going to be named the Alpha Romeo Jr. Which is wild. Even this press picture, M.I. in the license plate. I'm sure it says Milano if you zoomed in there. And now it's going to be called the junior. Now, on the subject of Fiat,

Chrysler, great with the transitions today. On the subject of Fiat Chrysler, we have this. Theat Chrysler has revealed an image of a vehicle covered in camo on a trailer, on a flatbed trailer. But it's being pulled by a RAM. It's being pulled quite clearly by a RAM. The trailer, who knows who makes the trailer? This is the successor to the TRX.

Now, the TRX, have you mourned? Have you guys both mourned the TRX? I let a candle at my vigil on Sunday for the... I want to talk about T.R.S. The R.S. was Ram's Hellcat Engine pickup truck. Of course, they won't call it a Hellcat, and that's reserved only for Dodge. But there was a Jeep Helcat, there was a RAM Helcat, TRX.

It's gone. 24 is the final model year. This is the end of the TRX. And they have announced, or not announced, but it's become tuned to everybody, that the next one is going to be powered by a six-cylinder engine. The hurricane, I assume. And it's going to be called the R-HO. What does that stand?

I don't know. What did the TRX stand for? T-Rex, because the Ford had the Raptor. Right. And they had all those great hood, engine bay, little each-ROW. It was awesome. It was such great. But Chrysler has committed to becoming carbon neutral like every company has by 20-30-something, God knows.

And so they can't sell a car with 700-horsepower V8 anymore, Supercharged V8 anymore. Right. And so now they're actually going to go way down in power. The rumors are five-something. Oh, that's not going to be. Really? Yeah. The day, like, there are going to be a lot of cars that retreat, and some are just going to go electric instead of retreating.

But this is, like, really one of them. But why not just add electric assist and bring it up to the same power figure? Like, why not add something? I imagine cost. Packaging. But it's not like the T-RX was cheap anyway, like when it came out. People were willing to pay. They were $95,000.

Yeah, I mean, people were willing to pay. I always use that as an example of $355. The pickup trucks are more expensive than what I paid for my Ferrari. But like, why not make it crazy, powerful? Liable, better. Yeah. I don't know. And I have a suspicion that the future will be there.

But I also have a suspicion that these other automakers watched Ford debut, the lightning. And I don't think it went like everybody hoped. But not even that. just hybrid power. Like it's just like torque fill like dual. I think it might be. I mean they have RAM recently released the new RAM 1500, which has an inline 6 plug-in hybrid.

Yeah. Power train with the hurricane inline 6, which is their new design, six-filner. I don't, I assume that they'll use the same engine, but like I don't know. Because I think that they're,

ultimately, I think that they're just kind of ditching V8s. The Grand Wagoner has ditched its V8. Their new charger and Challenger. I don't know where that ended up. And I don't think they've completely announced that or whatever. but I think that we see where they're going. If they've made a goal to be carbon neutral, you don't get there by making giant V8.

It's just not going to happen. So the new TRX, I mean, we obviously can't see anything here. I'm sure it'll be really cool looking, but it definitely won't be the TRX as we know it, which is why they're not going to call it the TRX anymore. The days of the TRX help out pickup are over, and you make an excellent point about values. We'll talk about this later.

Oh, you have this in here? One of these podcasts. There was a fond week that I remember fondly around July 4th of 2020. Well, I remember. When we had three TRXs is one white, one red white, One of the site. Ran of at the same time. Quite an adventure.

It'll slewed the flag. But very America, 707 horsepower each. It'll have fewer, less horsepower, and that's unfortunate. It'll be a different car, and I agree with you

that I think that as a result, the TRX is going to be special, and that's going to be true of the Durango, and that's going to be true of the Jeep. Like, there will be a period where these cars were out there. It's like the end of the muscle car era and the move into the malaise era,

and some might look at the dawn of electrification is a bit of a new malaise era in the car roll. I'm not going to say that publicly, though, but some might look at it like that. Can I ask a very, very quick question? There's still a Raptor, which has a V6. There's a Raptor R, which has... It has a V8.

Yeah. Will that also go away, presumably? I don't know. Ford has done a better job of creating electric cars. One of the things I've learned with all these companies trying to go carbon neutral, the ones that have been able to get away with building the crazy high-powered engines are the ones that have done a better job with hybrids and plug-ins. Yeah.

So Lexus is the best example. They have hybrids and plugins out the wazoo, so they can still build a naturally aspirated 5-liter V8 and put it in the LC-500 and put it in the RCF, etc. That's an interesting thing. So Ford maybe buys themselves some carbon neutrality. Chrysler, on the other hand,

has built no electric cars and has made no commitment to this, and as a result, they have to shrink on their top end. On the subject of the future, you have one more interesting use for me. This is a quick one. So British Columbia in Canada. Vancouver. Pass a law last week, this week,

that if you have a car that is level three self-driving eligible, which right now, No cars that are sold in Canada technically are. Mercedes has two cars as a car that's approved in California to be level three, their new S class with some package. I think there's maybe one other manufacturer that has a level three self-driving car. Per new British Columbia law, you cannot drive that vehicle in British Columbia. Why? Because they're presumably they made it a little bit overly broad

and they meant that you can't use that technology. But the way that it is phrased, you cannot drive that vehicle. So if you in California are buying an EQS or an S-class with level three self-driving, don't go to British Columbia. That's a takeaway. But it's interesting, you love this tech. I do.

You fully support it. It's interesting to see how different states and provinces regulate. It's already difficult for automakers to deal with the myriad of regulations between U.S. states and Canadian provinces. It's going to get harder. Right. And this is crazy stuff,

but this is the beginning of the era of laws about autonomous and such. And there was going to be laws and there. Nevada has a special license plate for autonomous cars. Really? Yeah, it's red. It's red. And if I'm not correctly, British Columbia has like a province-wide insurer. So maybe that impacted us to your point.

There's a liability concern. Liability is going to be the issue of the day for the foreseeable future of cars. Okay, those are our news topics for today. Next, we move on to generally talking about car topics. And I want to start with my Toyota Sequoia, which I've now owned for a month. Congratulations. Has it only been a month? It's been a month.

And I have still, I'm on the first tank of gas still, because it gets great mileage. Oh, yeah? Which again? 10 miles per gallon. It's actually up to 12. No, the truth is I haven't driven it, and I don't really plan to. But I have it, and so there's that. When was the last time this car turned on?

Two weeks ago. So, like, you know, a lot of people have to maintain your exotic cars. A lot of people have to go and start them regularly. I am worried the battery will die. For you, it's your daily driver. You have to go occasionally start because you drive your Lamborghini. No, my wife and I share my Mercedes station wagon, which is great. and that's been great.

The Sequoia was really only bought for very specific purposes like long trips, which I will use it for significantly quite soon. But so far, I haven't driven it much. Now, I am going to drive it on Friday to try to wrap the camo fenders in just straight black. Thank you to Kevin. I'm going to try to wrap the fenders in straight black

and remove the giant Sequoia badge on the back. So I'm kind of unhaining it a little. We're then going to paint the wheels great. So there's some progress that's going to be made. Then the car will be less onerous to drive. And ostentatious to look at. Yes. but I haven't used it much.

You haven't driven it in two weeks. You want it driving? No. That's the reality of it, yeah. The reason I bring up my Sequoia is actually not to talk about how I haven't driven it in two weeks. It is because when you purchase a brand new Toyota, you are sent a thousand emails by Toyota about, what was your purchase? Here's how to work the technology. Do you want to sign up for this?

Do you want to sign it for that? One email described how to use Bluetooth. Oh. Which I, did you learn? Having used it for the last 20 years and a variety of portable speakers, automobiles, everything. I already knew. But one of the emails I received was

an email that offered me the ability to buy Toyota gifts. So I have bought presents for the two of you. Wow. And I'm going to tell you right now, these gifts are the stupidest things that you could imagine that Toyota would possibly offer. And in fact, they have offered them

and I have bought them for you. I'm so excited. Do you think that you're the first person to buy these? Yeah, and you should have seen the process. It was wow. It was clearly done by someone who had never done order fulfillment before. And so like the email comes, I select. I get an email confirming. I get a second email confirming again. I get a third email saying that they were going to be split into two different packages.

I get a fourth email saying they ship. Like it's absolutely ins like clearly no one has ever ordered this crap before. But I did and I weren't gifts for you. For Felipe. I have. I will cherish this for the day I die. And so I got him a TRD dog toy. Thank you.

With lines on it. And it says TRD. I will not be given this to my dog. because I cherish it too much. Cassie, I'm sorry. This is a special treat for a dog or you. I've never felt more valid. And by the way, that's not just a regular Toyota dog plushy.

That is a TRD dog. That is an endurance. That thing can take a lot. Yes. I should only spot clean it. Okay. So, so. All right.

For Kenan, I have bought an even finer gift. Oh. Tenon. Oh. Oh. Wow. These are Toyota socks. Oh my God.

Toyota socks. And they say on them, Toyota, with the Toyota logo, as you can see. And then there's some sort of mountain graphic. I don't know why. And then there's like some blue stripy lines. I figured you could wear these around the house and you're with Emily, just kind of kicking in on a Sunday. Or one of our ski trips. Yeah.

You could even re-gift them to Emily. I'm sure she'd appreciate them. Very, very comfortable. I'll keep these for myself. The only thing I can promise you is nobody else has these. because no one else would ever order anything from the Toyota email after you've bought your car. Sounds like you get a lot of communication, you know? Yeah, it's a lot of handholding.

It's too much to really figure it all out. Well, thank you. Can I tell a fun story about branded socks? Yeah. I have a friend who's named of Charlotte that bought a used Subaru Outback six months ago. And as a gift, like, as part of her negotiations with a Subaru dealership where she bought it, she made them throw in a pair of Subaru socks that she wears with frequency. I should have done that.

All these things were like 80 bucks because there's more. This is a gift for the office. I have bought two more gifts for the office. Number one is a stuffed goat who's wearing a shirt that is Toyota. Do you see this? That's incredible. Goat wearing a shirt that says Toyota. It has a beard.

Yeah, he's got a little beard. He's like it's like a mountain goat. That's incredible. A shirt that says Toyota. And I have a stuffed bee who's wearing a shirt that says Toyota. Now I know what you're thinking. Why? Did Toyota Mee?

Did Toyota manufacture a stuffed goat and a stuffed B with a shirt that says Toyota? I have no idea how any of this stuff is relevant to the vehicle that I bought or why they sell Toyota branded. And by the way, they designed these things. Like they did like a mountain design. Somebody spent time. Like they didn't just, this isn't also on a T-shirt and also on a mug. Like socks only. B only.

So now. Dogbone only. Right. So now we have, you guys have your special gifts. Thank you. And this is the greatest thing the Sequoia. has given us in addition to 437 turbocharged horsepower, we now have a B and a goat. It's turbocharge?

Yeah, it's turbo-hybrid. Thank you. Yes. Thank you very much. I mean, that was awesome. Thank you, Toyota for putting the effort in to make these things. Yes, 80 personal dollars I spent. This guy was 17 bucks.

Wow. I don't know what he actually cost, but he wasn't cheap and it was all wild, and I truly think I'm the only person who's ever bought one of these. And if you and home buy it just to spite me, so there's two of us, I'll be back. And Toyota wins either way. No, when you're creating, when you're creating merch like this, you're not a winner. Nobody wins. Okay, now that you've been gifted, my Toyota items, Kenan, give us something else interesting to discuss.

Yes, so you and I were having a discussion the other day. We were talking about how Lewis Hamilton happens to have a McLaren F1, which is the, and you said, well, I share something in common with Lewis Hamilton. And I was like, you're driving prowess in your mind. What could that possibly be? And he was like, no, we both have what was once the fastest car in the world. Fastest car in the world. He has a McLaren-F-1, which in Dib was, and the Kuntash, which was the fastest car in the world. Well, less brief than we thought.

Yes, less brief than we a lot. Now, we then begin talking about this list that exists on Wikipedia of the fastest cars in the world. And he asked me, what do you think replace the Kuntosh as the fastest car in the world? I said, take a guess. I'm looking at the list. Take a guess. Here's the list as it stands up. to the Kuntosh, which is his car exactly,

a 5,000 nests. So maybe before the Kuntash was a mirror, same thing, same thing, three, six five GTP. So my car did 182 miles an hour. These we all agree with. So then you're thinking, all right, well, the Kuntash in 82 is the best car in the world. What's next? Also, the mirror had quite a long life. 1962 to 82. Feels like that might not be too late.

Well, what in the 70s? What was being made that was faster? I don't know. I would have... An SV maybe, but... Yeah, it was all trash. I mean, the Daytona with a slight breeze is probably about the same speed. But, anyway. So, the point is, the answer to this question is,

the roof BTR. Which to us was a little annoying. Because that is a modified 9-11. That's not a production car. Now, roof people are going to write in, they're going to like, oh, it has its own van, and it has not a head. But it's a modified 9-11.

It's a modified 9-11. It's like, that's not a real, they built, what, 13? Something like that. And by the way, when you were I seen it on the street, You know what we look and we know what we say? Oh, 9-11. Now, it gets worse. It gets worse.

So in 83, so I was like, really? I was annoyed at that. Then the 959. The 9-59 comes along. We kind of, that's what we thought. Yeah. Then the roof CTR again comes in 87. The problem with this is the F40 came out of 87.

Everyone knows the F40 was fast car in the world. No, it was the roof CTR. This is production by the way. They built 29. Doesn't even get the F40, the icon of supercars, It doesn't even get an honorable mention in 87. Just this modified 9-11. Then...

Now, this is where the real problem is... In 1993. Everyone knows the McCarran F1 was the fastest car on the planet. It's what it's known for. One of the many things... It turns out that's not true. In fact, the fastest car on the planet

was the Dower 962 Lamont. They made 13 of them. They made 13 of them. That's not a production car. That's not real. So this list, the fastest cars in the world doesn't include the... F40 doesn't include

the McLaren F1. It's just like this is a completely irrelevant list. Completely irrelevant. Like none of this matter. Like to be honest with it, it's like, I'm understanding this car. And don't get me wrong.

CTR is cool. The door 96-Lamon is pretty cool. It is. It is. I've seen one in person. It's cool. I have two. It is very cool.

But they made 13. Yeah. I think that the production car record should not be given to a vehicle of which 29 was made based on a moded 9-11. of which 13 was made honestly this was also based on a Porsche

like that's not how it works I agree that's not real production number I don't think there should necessarily be a minimum production number because at the other day they only made 100 McLaren F1s but that's more real is it I don't know I don't I can't define it but I know it when I see it this is not a production car

this is not a production car they don't count I agree I just can't believe the F40 didn't even make the list or the McLaren F1 Which is agreed, because if you scroll down, the next one's the Varon, right? Yeah. It is agreed 100% by all human beings ever that the McLaren F1 was the fastest car in the world from the 1999-5 until 2005. No, no, not on Wikipedia.

It's the Dower 962 Lamont, which nobody listening to this has ever heard of. Also, I feel like in between the 959 and the Kuntosh lies the 288 GTO, which must have been faster. We look, the 22 is a little faster. So the Kuntash actually held the record from 82 to 85. which perfectly encapsulates my car, which is technically an 83. Then the 959. Sure.

Then the F40, which did 200, as everyone knows, the first car to go 200 miles an hour. Then I think technically... The XJ 220. Yeah. And then that's trash.

Right. That held it for 10 minutes. And then it was the McLaren F1. No, the problem of the X-Chic 20 is no one ever actually did it. Right. But in theory. Right. Then again,

the Doward 966-Lamaw over there, it says independently measured. Nobody did that. that either. So not only do they not build many of them, but it also wasn't tested by anybody of relevant. They built 13, and one of the 13 guys got out with his buddies and a radar gun, and you hit 251.4.

Whoa! And that's on Wikipedia, preserved for posterity, no. And also is this, you know, the average of two speeds? Right, which I'm sure the Bugatti is, by the way. I guarantee, yeah. Volkswagen was very keen to make sure it was very legit. There's no question. So this is a bunch of

BS, but I am... I mean, granted, it's a list on Wikipedia. But it was very upsetting. To tell this is the production car speed record list and have all these roofs in there. You get roof people, roof people are obsessed. And they get these special vins. Roofs get their own vins because they're a manufacturer. The day a manufacturer starts a car based on a car from another manufacturer. Right.

Right. Because then, yeah, like, dining is a manufacturer. What's the difference? I've never understood the difference. These roof people are obsessive. Pull up a picture. Click on that roof CTR. This is the yellow bird.

That is a Porsche 9-11. If the people saw that, he'd be like, saw a yellow 9-11 today, guys. It doesn't pass the Philippo test. Right. Oh, wow. A new test. Don't you agree? If it doesn't pass the Filipino test, it doesn't agree. I saw

this car before. I've seen this car in person. It's cool. It's awesome. It is a Porsche 9-11. Yeah, at the end of the day. Well, yeah, I totally agree with you. I was very annoyed to see these roofs. They don't deserve to. The yellow bird. It's going to tell us the one yellow bird you agree with? The only yellow bird

I agree. This is the one who hangs out with El- Oh, yeah, Sesame Street, baby. Okay, all right. Look, the point is, although we've diverted into ridiculousness here, this is very important, I think. I don't disagree that list. The fastest car in the world, and all these modded Porsches take the list instead of the F-40, the 288 GTO.

Icons. The McLearn F-1. Roof, C-TR. Get out of here. Get out of here. Ridiculous, trash. Okay. I got another topic, which is yesterday I drove the low-es-year-old.

Lotus Electro. Ooh. And I got a video coming and you're going to watch the video because it's good. It's not a bargo. I assume. No, it's not a bargoat. Throttle House had it six months ago. So tell us about this ultra-light weight.

The only reason I'm bringing it up is because it was pretty good. Really? So you're not bothered by the brand conflict. Yes. That is bothersome. And I think that as a Lotus, it is embarrassing and stupid. Okay. What is it?

I know what it is. But Lotus Electra is a fully electric. electric sport utility vehicle with 900 horsepower. I'm not exaggerating. How large is it? It's mid-size, same size as a new defender. One-10. And it has, and it weighs 5,800 pounds.

Oh. Okay. Now, this doesn't fit with a lot of Lotus's ethos. Simplify and add lightness. No. It weighs 5,800 pounds. Pure sports car, no. It has a screen in the interior that's only slightly smaller than this one.

Britishness. Pure British. No, it's built in China. But other than those things. No. These are leading questions. Is it lighter than like the EQS? No, no.

It's heavy, big, barely got it in the elevator. But here's the deal. I drove it. It's actually pretty good. Wow. If you think if you can't. Handling by Lotus strikes again. It handles well.

It accelerates well. I think it looks pretty good. It's fast. It's fun. It is not so bad. You just have to take out the brand name and everything you've ever heard about Lotus. If you can get past all that, No, unfortunately, most people have never heard of Lotus.

That's kind of part of the problem. Yeah. Like, they're trying to leverage this brand name and most people are like, what? Is there a dealer? And leverage it for an antithetical purpose. Right. So. It works for Porsche.

The problem is it's hard to complain because every one of these brands has. I mean, Maserati has one. Bentley has one. Porsche has one. But this is even more antithetical than any of them to what they exist for. Like Lotus is all about simplicity. Right. I mean, Colin Chapman's cars were.

known to be dangerous in the day because he shaved off so much weight they were death traps. Colin, by the way, the Lotus logo is on this car like 400 times. There are Lotus logos in places you've never seen a logo ever. The front trunk, you open up the front truck and there's a plastic cover for the actual cargo compartment and printer

on the plastic cover it says Lotus Pioneers since 1948. And I'm sitting here and look at this electric Chinese SUV that weighs as much as a this entire set plus that crash. I'm like, I don't know, but But it actually was fun to drive, fun to use.

The tech was good. There's some really weird quirks and gimmicks to it. So a good car just have to get over the moral implications of the moral implication. That's exactly it. The brand dissonance. Tell people you drive a Lotus and then. And by the way, that's not true of all of these luxury brandies. Like the Maserad de Levante does is not a good car.

The Lotus is a good. It was good. It wasn't bad. I'm glad to hear that. I mean, they won't. Surely they're not going to sell anything. No, that will never see them. No, that will not.

Was it competitive in the segment? Well, the problem is the price tag. So the one I draw. There's two, there's the base model with 600 horse and there's the R, the one I drove with 900 horse. Sure. That has a starting price of $145,000 or $147,000. Even the base is like 106 to start. So when you think about like the I-X is like a 6580 car.

What does that compete with the XM? High-end turbo that's well equipped. Yeah, the XM, which you don't want to be competing with the X-M. Because the X-M is competing with X-M. You can't lose that competition. No, that's true. Everyone will win that competition except for BMW. Yeah.

Who has lost the moment that car showed up in our last. lives. Wow. Yeah, it's expensive. But it's good. It was fun to drive, legitimately fun to throw around. I actually enjoyed it. Yeah, it's really nice.

It's got cool tech. It's got one of those sunroofs that you push a button and it's not a slurgy. Yeah. Yeah. And that'll last. And there certainly won't be any problems with Lotus dealership support either. For instance, I know where my local Lotus dealer is. No problem.

Of course. I see we looked it up. I have no idea. Neither does anyone else. I truly have no clue. And the concept that a Lotus dealer is now going to figure out how to service and sell and support a full size are there said a lone lotus dealers

I assume there are there is a lotus dealership it's in it's on belboa avenue which is in kerry mesa unfortunately it is permanently closed yeah so other but it but it could open someday but also there's on the mirror and that's it they are selling the mirror which is

also a pretty good car when you type in lotus dealer the closest lotus dealer is Aston Martin of San Diego which is an Aston Martin dealer right okay let's report on British account the next closest one by the way is Lotus of Orange County which is in Costa Mesa. Which is where all of them will be sold.

So there's like four million people between us on the next Lotus dealer. So they're really doing a great job with their dealer network. It's also worth pointing out there's only one dealer in L.A., Galpin Lotus. Oh, I'm not surprised at the Al-N-I's,

which is also nowhere near anything. There was a second dealer in L. C&C Motors was a Lotus dealer. Wow. Really? Yes, they were a factory Lotus dealer. That, unfortunately, is no longer true. Okay.

Filippo, talk to us about something interesting. All right. I want to talk about a little. electric convertibles and coop. So we talked earlier in this podcast about the Grand Cabrio and the Grand Turismo, both of which are EV.

As far as I can tell, outside of the original Tesla Roadster, those are the only coop or convertible electric cars currently for sale. Porsche will have the Boxter EV eventually. It seems like a,

I get why every manufacturer went for like the crossover or the sedan. But it's kind of weird. There's no like enthusiasm or even enthusiast body style. I think. think it's because I think it's because of the, again, part of the experience of being a convertible is like, you know, having the, for enthusiasts.

I don't think that, like, Chrysler had the C-Brain. That wasn't the point. Like, people like convertible, like that some point convertibles and coops, they're, like, desirable for, like, younger people attracting that market. I think also, it's probably just a matter of time. I mean, eventually, like, the Mustang will be electric and there will be a convertible version of that in every rental fleet of the country. Oh, boy, I have no idea. I mean, can't be the monkey. They'll find something else.

The, yeah, they make an electric Mustang, so what you want about? We should bring back the Thunderbird name for the electric, like, the lightning bird. The lightning bird, there we go. Yeah, it hasn't, that's true. The Remact Navarra, which costs $2 million. Right, that's not, not really in contention. The Lotus Evigia. The Lotus Evigdiae, which doesn't exist yet.

The Lotus Vigigigidia. No, we looked it up. They delivered one. The first one was delivered to Jens. and button. Okay, sure. Do you know who he is? Yes, of course. Really? Because I don't. But he's on there. He's a Formula One driver, world champion, but we'll move on. How many times did he

win? Once. I only know. One World Championship. How many World Championships are you won? I'll tell you what. Me and Louis Hamilton, we have a lot of common. I have won multiple Formula One championship. Between us. You could name last year's Formula One World Champion. Lewis Hamilton's dad also popped a career GT.

Oh, yeah. That is another thing you share in college. You even popped a career GT, but him. No electric enthusiast cars. I have a theory about the boxster because Porsche's been talking about it's electric I don't think they're going to do it. Really?

I don't think they're going to go full electric. They were like, oh, we're going to do an electric only boxter. They have the macon, which I think is a custom chassis. But that's not electric only. The new macon will be electric only. That's not going to sell.

They're going to continue the gas macon. Sorry. This is a R? Same generation, though. The thing is, This is a core competency sports car for Porsche, not one of their mass-produced SUVs. So this hits a little bit more home on their enthusiast group. So I am kind of, but I don't know, they have been so public and vocal about getting rid of gasoline power for the box.

I know, but I just don't think they'll love. No, I'm sure they're deep. Several other brands, I mentioned Aston Martin, has kind of way pulled back from their EV plans. And other brands have two. Rolls-Royce is not selling the spectres. Those are a disaster. Bentley's not selling any plug-ins. Like people in this segment, obviously those are super high end, but the sports car, the person who's buying it is a fourth car, they don't want.

They're looking for a car to row their own gears for a thousand miles a year on the weekends. I think I'm a little surprised that somebody like Kia or Hyundai, which have 17 trillion EVs, and I've gone really big on EVs, haven't made an EV6 coupe or whatever. It would be easy to do a convertible EV6. They have the power. Now I'm trying to picture a convertible EV6. Well, it wouldn't be based on the EV6. like the Morano. But they would do,

the power train and the chassis are pretty easy to do. And so like, you know, it's a different body. I mean, it's not easy, but it's not impossible.

It's not as hard as developing a convertible from the ground up would have been years ago. For sure. He was a little surprised. Yeah. And every startup is coming with EV SUVs.

I would buy an EV convertible. No, you wouldn't. He's looking at Corbett C-7. We got to get a list of all the stuff on this pod that he said he would buy. He said he would buy an alpha-164. We should start putting money on it.

Who would be on the other end? Him? He's not going to bet. He knows he's not going to do it. But if I'm thinking about what do my wife and I want to drive around at San Diego, we drive our FIFA 500 to Barth cabrily, which is a convertible, to the office and back in like around town. An EV would be fine for that. But it's not like there's options. Have you thought about a Tesla Roadster original? Too expensive.

Too bad. The Fiat 500 is coming back electric. Is that going to be a convertible? Not as far as that. It's not, to my knowledge. Hatch only. Yeah. Well, that's Hot hatch. That's a situation.

No, it's an interesting point. Yeah. No Volkswagen Eos replaced them. In hitting the EV world, they've tried to hit the largest bell curve of the buyers. Which makes sense. But I'm just surprised that somebody didn't try to be different. Yeah, it would be an interesting point. Like, you could own the segment. Well, Tesla said they would be different. And four years later, here we are. Oh, you're still waiting for your roadster allocation?

You know, I think everyone is. And then again, like, Volkswagen claimed they were coming out, the IB buzz in the U.S. Yeah, the cool EVs are we're still all waiting for. Okay, with that in mind, it is now time for our market report. Market report of interesting goings-on in the car market. Yes. I want to talk about speaking of EVs, the Tesla Cybertruck. Can you pull up our recent Cybertruck and no sales?

Hey, we sold one. All right, so Cybertruck, we came with the first run, bid to 158. That should have taken it. Yep. Should have absolutely taken 158. Next was bid to 145, and we sold 1,4 and 46, and one was bid a couple days ago for 129. We have one currently live that's currently bid to 130. 130.

But nonetheless, the point is made. These aren't doing all that great. They also can't be sold new currently. No more deliveries are happening. Yeah, for a second. They'll be fun. They'll fix that. Stop sales are common.

Everybody freaks out when Tesla has a stop sale. When I worked at Porsche, I'm in love with this. I probably under some NDAs. No, I'm kidding. But it's common for all out of it. Truthfully, it has stopped sales. And they usually fix them within a couple of weeks. Prices are not strong on the used market.

I mean, put differently, prices are 15, 20K above MSRP, and MSRP's 100. Dude, Hummer EVs we were selling for 200 over when it first came out. I truly think that was a different time. Rivian, R1Ts, R1T, they're selling for MSRP or below the new MSRP, but they changed pricing. That's the point that I was going to make.

It's a different time. Things have changed. We talked about this already on a pod, but it's even become clearer. Like, I think within six months, these will be stickers. I think within a month. Tesla's building a lot of them. They're very polarizing, and people aren't willing to pay like they once were for these things.

And it's kind of interesting to see it happens so fast. Also, demand for $110,000 pickup trucks. Is lower than it was, yeah, two years ago. R1T lease deals are what? $700 a month? Yeah. Right. Again, if Tesla had brought this to market when they said they were going to many years ago,

they would have absolutely annihilated. Especially because it would have been 21. Not only would they have been the first truck, but they would have been at the heart of one of the greatest sales periods in the entire history of automobile. These things would have been actually profitable and successful. Right. And we had such a long run of rivians when we started to get them on the site when people were submitting them. And it's clear that the run of Tesla's, of cyber trucks being well over MSRP is going to be. We're going to sell a bunch of them.

We'll still sell a lot. We're going to submit them to us. We're going to make money on them. They're going to be happy. But like it ain't going to be like it was Hummery. When Hummery v lasted a year at like a hundred over. The first ones were 200 over And then they were 100 over

And then it was like And now they're like a sticker But that was like a year I do wonder if there's gonna be They're only being sold in the US currently Yeah they didn't sell in Canada Okay North America You think Canada is part of the US

He's one of those I wasn't thinking about Canada My point was gonna be I wonder if there will be International demand for a while That keeps it at or above MSRP Because there's people that are willing to bring him To the Middle East especially

where I feel like a struggle like this would be kind of desirable as like a status symbol. He is Canadian and he's mad at you. I am struck they're not selling the Middle East. I wonder if the secondary market will. Yeah, no, surely. The Middle East gas is free though, so it's less of a thing. But this is the kind of thing that would sell the Middle East.

I'll never forget going to Dubai and discovering that Middle Easterners are just Americans. Or hey, it would be allowable in a lot of European city centers. It would not be allowed. It would be. Oh, because it's electric. It's electric. Imagine beautiful cathedral to cyber truck production.

The cyber drug would be the cathedral. You'd be the richest man in Germany. Totally. Okay. Can a next market report topic? Yes. So we have mentioned it a lot recently, but we had a Fisker Ocean that transacted. God, look at the price.

It's, yeah, for 317. Go back to that. That is absolutely hilarious. So the first two we sold were the base model. The first dude turned down 65, which was one of the greatest financial mistakes in the history of time. The second dude turned down 62, same. thing. Then we sold the extreme. That's the best one. Best one. Highest trim level. And a nice

colors. Nice color. Everything about it was wearing. And it had 700 miles. And he sold for 31750. Now the sticker on this car was 65. 162. So, so quick depreciation cash. Destination charge $2,400 on this car? It's built. It's built. It's built. It's built. It's built. So that's right. Of course. It's built on. So not eligible for tax credit. So they also currently. Only new ones are 40, I think, extremes. Like 20, 23. Is that right?

So this person lost $34,000 in 700 miles, yeah. Which works out to $50 per mile. Kenan, you ever spend $50 a mile on a car? Yeah, I had a 55. I think mine was more, actually. But at least I had a Ferrari. But this is like, I losing 34 Gs in the span of two months driving it across 700 miles. To be clear, I made it all back in the end.

This guy did not. Unfortunately for him. And it wasn't even like you had an experience. I'm into this. Whoever this was brilliant. He got out. He saw the writing on the wall

and was like, I'm not sticking around for this. Cutting the losses. He's probably thrilled. Wow. Yeah, I know. Wow. To have an actual example like this,

like, I don't know, it's like you hear it's kind of bad and then something happens in your hometown and it's like, that's really terrible. There was a recession out there and the next year. A guy in an Rage T comes and fires your dad.

This is the, that situation. On the subject of interesting recent sales, and that is a wild one. And by the way, if extremes are 31.750, ones, the base model must be.

20. Yeah. You got to imagine. We had them bid to 65, three months ago. But to be fair, addition ones were closer to extreme prices.

These EV startups, they don't require an enormous amount of, like the regulations are less to enter the market. The barriers are entry or lower because they don't have to get engines certified or even developed.

But the drawback, is they might be underfunded when they launched because they didn't take all that much to get going like it wasn't all that much. Like you could always count on a Ford. Ford ain't going to leave you behind in terms of an automaker. Although here's a little nugget. Fisker opened two dealership in Florida last week.

Why? Or like they found some group to... Ball was already rolling. It was down the hill. And actually if you look at Fisker stock, there was a day earlier this week when it was up 70%. I thought that Fisker would be listed. It was, but it still traded. It's delisted from the New York Stock chain. Okay, the stock is still traded. So the

it was up 70% so it went up a penny. It was from two cents to three I think so about that, yeah. Oh boy. Yikes. No, it's such a shame because I still think it's a good thing. Also look at those wheels. Yeah, hained wheels. All those are haynes are like kind of cool. I was sitting at a stop like the other day

in the career GT and a woman pulled up behind me, an old woman in one of these. And I was thinking to myself, huh. On the subject of interesting recent sales, can you pull up this lotus e-lease we just sold? I'm going to tell you an interesting story about the lotus E-lis which I didn't know until we sold this car. The Elise came out in the US in 05. It was sold through 11.

This is an 11 Elise R. In 11, Lotus facelifted the Elise and gave it a new front end. And then they pulled it off the market because regulations changed and they weren't able to keep selling it. They did continue to sell the Exige, which was the coup, but they couldn't sell it for road use and they were sold as race cars

only. So there's only one model where the Elise has this updated front end and this is that car. And I've never actually seen one. But we sold this one for big money. What was it? 70. 71. Yeah. 3.33. Considering that I have this Elyse view that like they're all 35 or 40 grand, this one isn't. There's a very, there's a probably very limited number of these and it was a very special car that sold for a very big amount of money that if you're into the lotus is like

this is the one. We wrote the listing obviously. And it's a third gen. It's how it refers to it. Oh really? I said third gen. Because it had a nose different. But like, I can't, I couldn't find anything else about how it was different. Welcome to the S-2000s. CR though. Yeah. Like a lot of cars, it didn't matter that it was only a little different. We're talking about small production at the very end. That's what people wanted. Of a car that was otherwise very successful and they made a lot of. Right.

So it's already a desirable car and then you have a low production. Little differentiation. Right. Little differentiated. Like the U.S. market F40s, just little tiny things. Those were worse. But yeah. Yes.

But still. Wow. You agree with my point? I don't like the bumpers. I never liked the big front bumper. Do you think they had more power? Absolutely not. And if they did, it was maybe five more horsepower.

Like, who cares? And I also think the F-O-Ruroy was underrated from the factory to begin with, but that's another story. Or 78. We're going on deep tangent here. Yeah, but it's relevant to Elise shoppers. No, I was really impressed with this. This is a wrong sale. And I was really happy about it.

Because I think that this is a special car that deserves to be recognized as being special. And that was maybe the one to buy. Also, the other release sale from this week of that track modified one, also really strong. Yeah, at leases are maybe a little stronger than I thought. There was a time when truly you could buy selling for $30,000 all day long. And those days are gone, but 40 will still get you into a decent lease. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Felipe, you have another excellent topic.

We're talking about the TRX earlier today. Terex values are kind of interesting. So MSRPs on TRX is broadly are like 90, 95. Yeah. Early when they first came out, would they trade it right around there. Like a little over that, but right around there. They're sold in the mid to high 70s. Yeah.

Which think of another pickup truck that has 30,000 miles and sells for not that much. Can I tell you another car like this? The Hellcat Durangoes and the Jeep trackhawks have all. I was hoping Trackhawk jeeps would come down. Oh, God, I imagine if they did. They never, they never came out. I'd buy a Durango before I bought the Grand Cherokee, but that's okay. Really?

Yeah. Why? Love the Durango. What? He's insane. The trackhawks the one. What? Why?

The Durango seat seven. He wants the seat. He's obsessed with seven. He's wife and his dog and family that comes to visit him occasionally. It needs room for seven. We used our rear-facing third row on the seventh. Saturday. Okay.

Okay. It's an interesting point. Obviously, it's because of the power train. Now that the truck's gone. I wonder if it'll go up, yeah. I wonder if it just stays flat because nothing is going to come out like this. The answer to the question, by the way, Raptors retain their value pretty well. Not like this.

Yeah. Raptors. But well, all the- First-gen-Raptors did. Yeah. Second-gen have retained. And ours are pretty good. Ours, yes.

Your point is well taken, though. Like, this truck is going to do well. All the Hellcat engine, non-Halkats are doing well. It's an interesting thing. Raptors still do pretty well Yeah, still do Yeah, still do. Okay. Okay, it's time to take questions, questions, questions, questions, questions, questions, questions, questions, questions.

The first question... Ask us a good one. The first question comes from that silver 86. How will low-power, lightweight sports cars age with the rise of cars having an excess of power? It seems that every new car continues to get quicker and quicker when speed limits stay the same, so what is the point of more power if you can't use it? There is no point to more power. Thank you.

That is a tailor-made question. It is also quite the transition from talking about the Durango help that, which is the most overpowered automobile known to man. Textbook overpower. I kind of have a feeling that we're going to stop talking about horsepower pretty soon. Oh, never stop. Yeah. People like to brag about horse power. Think about it this way.

We have, Ken and I have run to this issue. Tesla doesn't publish horsepower numbers. That's right. It is annoying. Nobody seems to care. Yeah. And that's the Tesla, but that's true, like, plaids too and, like high-performing ones. I think that won't become the metric we talk about in electric land,

which is probably correct. Yeah, but this person is asking about the GR86 and the yada. I don't know how they'll be looked at. I agree that they're cool. Tesla has democratized speed and horse power in a way that was kind of unprecedented. I mean, zero to 16, two seconds is. So then the question he asked,

the first part of his question, I think is they will age well because there will be always people who are interested. But the second part of the question gets to what you're saying. As cars get more powerful, what's the point if you can't use them? Yeah. Right. Which has been something, it's been an argument forever. I mean, you know, it's like, oh, do you really need a, you know, a thousand horsepower Veyron, do you really need that?

And it's like, no, of course you don't. But, like, you can, it's still like, there's something to getting to experience it a little bit. Like, and just knowing there's something, it's like having a watch that can go, be submerged 25,000 feet. You can't do it. But there's something to knowing that, like, you can. No, there's not. But I don't think it diminishes. I don't think it, you don't know.

I don't think it diminishes Like the I don't think it diminishes anything People like to have more capabilities They can use as bragging rights Or just to make themselves feel cool or whatever And so the answer to this question What is the point?

I mean what is the point of any of this stuff Like like what you know Like any sports cars Like at the end of I mean That's the kind of the point of luxury We could all drive a corolla like he would love to do Right It's just superfluous and like

And that's okay Like it's fine that it's I do think that those cars Will be viewed favorably for the overall experience Not necessarily because they're low power sports cars but because experience is much more. Exactly. You hate on something really important there is that experience,

like the experiential, like things are really wonderful. And like, it's okay if it doesn't have a whole lot of power. I don't think you're any car should have more than 220 horsepower. Okay, you're completely wrong. But you were so close and then you just like drove off a cliff. Two hundred and twenty, why is you? Why do you draw the line? Why do you need more than that?

Why do you need 220? You're also the person looking at C-7s. I think... But I drive a car with 160. Oh, how modest you are. I think the question... You answer the question is right. They will be looked at well

because they will provide a great experience that will not be repeated with electric cars under any circumstances. But the answer to the question, what's the point of more power? What is the point in? It's always been. It's cool. It's fun.

People like to be able to say it, and occasionally they do use it. Let's be honest. You got a plaid, you open it up here and there. Even when it's not legal, let's be honest with ourselves. You got a nice open stretch a straight road. You've got a passenger or three.

You want to see it happen. People do it. Yeah, yeah. And it's cool. Yeah. Can we take a quick tangent? Ionic 5N. Yeah, what's that about?

The, there are reviews out now. I saw that. You'll be seeing it next week. Yeah. They have a mode that simulates an internal combustion engine and a DCT. So they have a mode that simulates the experience somehow of a normal, of a non-electric car changing gears as you accelerate. So what they have is they've simulated disappointment is what they've. done basically. I can't wait to try that.

That's interesting. They've simulated driving in a gas car. In like a high performance gas car. How bizarre. So I'm excited to hear what your thoughts are about this. We'll find out next way. Okay, next question. Next question from Ariel Fuller. If you could eliminate one car from having ever been produced, what car would you pick?

I got like 50 of these. The BMW 2 series Grand Tour. X-M. The X-M. Now, the X-M has a place. It wouldn't, by the way, be the Morano Cross Cab. Stuff that's weird, I want. Yeah, there's some charm to how bad that car is. Yeah.

But I can come up with a million, million, million B-class electric. Come up with at least one more. Oh, B-Class Electric. Why? The B-class Electric is great. Mazda CX, or MX30. Yeah. I think we can all agree.

The original Lincoln MKX? The original Lincoln Aviator. It's tough to pick just one. Kind of like a Terra, maybe. Ooh, that was bad. Kamax made some real trash. Yeah. I don't know.

The Mustang 2. You give me one. Mustang 2 is pretty bad. Somebody, I was having a conversation earlier today with a coworker, and they asked me what my least favorite card that I most hate. Of 40s? No, and I went for, like, prior to 2012, late U.S. market Ford Focus. Yeah.

Oh, because the Ford Focus didn't change generations in the U.S. until 2012. It was wild. From 2009, 2009, 2000, to 2012. It was 2009 that they've changed it. They facelifted it. But foreign markets received a whole due generation. It was a wild decision. Prior to that point.

That was a terrible part. The U.S. one just kind of a little facelift to add Chrome. And I find that to be just. Insulting. It kind of, yeah. It was bad. Remember the Postal Service bought a bunch of those? It was legitimately insulting.

Oh, Alpinna, yeah. I agree with you. The focus, that, that gen focus was a horde. Remember they did a two-door coop? Yep. What was that? Now, they did cost $8 and the cheap as far as you could buy in the recession, but it was just deeply rude. It was insulting.

Yeah. It was bad. Yeah. That's a really good one. Your PNs have no idea what we're talking about because they got a good for focus. It's the second gen. And then the third gen, they all, they reunited again. And I own one.

Let me ask you this. If the brand infinity didn't exist after 2013, would anyone have noticed? Is that the answer to this question? Someone the other day asked me, why don't you get a QX80 and so your Sequoia? There is a newer QX80. And it's probably still nine years behind because the last one was 14 years behind. Can I ask you a question? Did they work for Infinity?

Yeah, they must have been getting employee pricing because that's the only way you could justify such trash. I think that any dealer would have given you employee pricing. I put it that way. Do you think there's any QX80s at dealers? Are there infinity? Do you could get good spec Q70s? Q70.

Remember the Q70 L? Yeah, right. You could get a good spec one of those. Remember the M35 and M45? I love those. We should consider an M45. Who should you? If you could find a clean O-Sept.

3m 45. Especially with the adapter cruise. You never will. Pull up the 03M45. Just to have one with the adapter crews because they offered it.

I think so. That car is so cool. It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. I'm so bad when I was a kid. I'm 4.5. No, don't not type in 3-5. We want the 4-5.

This, this bad boy. No. No. These were so cool. Yeah. Haneous car. You said it's gorgeous. Yeah, look at that side profile.

It's so bad. I love me. Gorgeous is not the right word, but it is interesting. 3-8. 340 horsepower and they were loaded with tech. This had adaptive cruise before. Anything had adaptive cruise.

It's just such a wild car. Oh yeah. It looks like a car that's been, it looks like a concept car that's been like flamed. Yeah. Yeah. It was so cool. I love these things.

There are none left in nice shape. They're none period. Man, this lives at a nice house. Yeah, you should have bought this one and saved it from whoever bought it next. How much did they pay? 77, 100. Pretty good deal.

Okay. The answer to that question is there's too many to know, but your Ford Focus. is a pretty good one that 09. Ford Focus facelift. Okay, next question. This is a good one. From Water X.

I love the podcast so much. Keep it up. Thank you. Thank you. No, the questions are two. Number one, what car did you pass your driving test in? And number two, what is your opinion on that specific car now? Kenyon.

It was a Chevy Malibu Max. My dad, Chevy Malibu Max. He said, he took it in. And my opinion is the same as it was then. Not a very good car. But my dad loved it. It's the only car he's ever loved. And those back seats that went forward and backwards.

That's right. The trans failed. And he had like very high trim level. So he had the DVD player that folded up in the back and had the headsets and everything. Which we never used because I don't think it ever worked. But it was. And I remember you could also like lift the headlights off of the body. They were just so badly secure.

I mean, it was a poorly built car. But I did pass my driving test in it with flying colors. Kelsupreeze. Three and a half liter v. 6. I distinctly remember consumer reports reviewed that car. and it had the best fuel economy of any mid-sized car that they'd reviewed. 26-mous-a-gallon combined. I don't know why. I remember that from 2000, whatever.

But what did you pass your driver? 2003-Honda pilot. 2003-Honda pilot. Also a car that had trans problems. Fewer than Odyssey's. But the pilots had the same. It was all bad. They kind of fixed it by O3.

Kind of. I drove that car a lot. It was good. I think that they... Just a car. I think that they've aged incredibly poorly design-wise. I don't think they look good

from the back still looks fine, the front looks hideous, but it was a great car. And I think it's still like a good, it was the first, that and the Highlander were the first unibody crossover family

SUVs from Japan. They were good. The next-gen pilot was really, really nice. No, the next-gen-gen pilot was the worst pilot. The jury came out in 1983. You're going to say it's not unibody. It was a good body,

but it wasn't a good, family car in the same way. Your point is sort of well taken. And it was a three row. Fine. The Ford Explorer was a unibody. All that three row. Consumers didn't make a distinction between unibody and non-unibody. They would buy its floor since. I had a 240 horsepower, 3.5 liter V6, which 242 pound feet of torque. Oh, 240 horse power, same as the E36.

And it was a five-speed auto, wasn't it? Which was a big deal in our three. Yeah. It was. It was, actually. It was a great car. I took my driving test in the driving company's car, so I don't remember what it was, but it was some sort of crappy little hatchback. However, I'll say the car that I had at that time, Volvo 850 turbo. And my opinion at the time was that it was the coolest thing in the world. My current opinion is utter trash. No, I actually still like it, but it was front-load drive and

understeree and not good and unreliable, and none of them are still on the road for that reason. Yep. And that's that. Two more questions. Two more questions. Two more questions. Number, oh boy, this one is from Schmenon. Like Kenan, but Schmenon. Oh. What do you think about the return of analog gauge clusters and physical button slash knobs and cars interior? How long will it take? It will take until the rest of time. I'm Schmenen because it will never happen. Correct. We've seen in the last couple of years

that return to volume dials because they realized that people weren't quite ready to go full, well, manufacturers hadn't yet built a good UI for that. That's like a matter of time before all buttons are gone. Yeah.

The B&W thing we do, the air, this is one of the most embarrassing innovations. Another thing that didn't need to be... Well, like, to think about, like, what do you engage with that has buttons now? Right.

Computers, sure. But the problem is not just that. I did a video on this the other day, and it hasn't caught up yet, but it's going to assume. Do you have any idea how many functions are in a modern car? Yeah. Like in a screen. People like, I want to get rid of the screen. Okay, fine.

Then you have to have all your driver assist, has a knob and a button and a switch. You have to have all your ambient lighting color change. Knob a button a switch. All of your climate controls, knob a button a switch. All of your navigation controls. You need to have a keyboard sitting there in the car like back in the day instead of a screen. All of this stuff. And if you add it up, there's like 400 controls in every screen.

Your car would look like a 747. Now, the response to this from people like him is, I don't want any of those features anyway. Okay, fine. But consumers do. And this is the idiot problem with these questions. Oh, I want my buttons back. No, consumers want too many things now to have buttons.

You've got to put them in screen. Well, you say this, but everything you described before, like laid out my car, has a button. Like the cruise control, which would be... How do you went around a navigation destination? I'm just curious. That one is annoying. Right. How long does it take you?

In my car, you can write it on a pad in nine seconds and you have it up on the screen. Tell me how you do it. Do you use a solid and push? What do you do for your driver assistant? What do you do for your driver assistant? I pay attention. This is the problem. No, you don't write it.

You use your phone like everybody else. You put the destination in your phone. CarPlay is what? That is actually not shockingly committed to using MBUX. I use it. What's for that? What's wrong with you? Wow.

It works great. I do think we're in like a growth era. in a bad way where manufacturers it takes them like 10 years to these systems are not like your phone except unless you're on Tesla they're tested there's a lot of additional thought that goes into them

that means that companies are very behind and they're using tech from seven 10 years ago to build these and that's why a lot of them once in a couple years ago are bad because they're using processing power from yeah but they're getting better exactly they're just so good it's like they're not having buttons is less of a problem because they're good

they're so good they're all instantly responsive the one of my Sequoia is so good buttons is so much worse. And think about what you're talking about. Phone, making a call. How do you make a call on your M5, sweetie? What do you do? In a normal call?

I do you have phone controls like when they work. And how do you scroll through your contacts? How do you type a phone number in? Well, I hit the button when I say call whoever and it calls who I want. Do you have voice control in that car? Yes, I do. Yes. You seem to angry.

What did you want to say? So I think that there is, I think there's a balance. I think there are certain things I want to be just like, I don't even look at. I just want to press it. And when I hit it, I want to know I hit it. He did see it when I'm driving. For instance, I don't want to look down. So, like, I think there are certain buttons that should be buttons.

But I think that there are, like, you said, many functions that screen suit. Stuff you rarely use. So I think, so although you call me basically a Luddite here, I think that the reality of it is that, like, I think this can be a blend between the two and they can be a happy medium. And I think that would ever be going to see most cars have just screens. I think it's cheaper. Your point is correct. And I hope that's where they go is the few buttons for. for stuff that you use regularly and then screens for everything else.

And for, I want a button to know I've done something. For instance, the 296 start button that's a screen. That's really unsatisfying for a sports card. Tap it. Did I tap it enough? a second time. I'm turning on already. Oh, no. Now it's turning off. Yeah. I know. It's stupid. I think that he's right that it will all turn into screens. Um, the problem I have is sort of the intellectual dishonesty with people who generally take this point of you, which is like, no, I don't want any of these things and I just want buttons. No. You want a mix. The mix is the right way to do it. Entering a net. entering a nav destination, calling somebody, et cetera. You want a screen for that, truthfully.

But these people pretend like they don't need any of that. And ultimately, the Lincoln that you had on test most recently, when you showed... The Nautilus. When you show me the screens where you could have a number of different things all split out, all of it, all at once. Brilliant. That is one of the best things like that. I think it's really... You can't do Carplay Maps in the middle screen. You don't experience it, but some of us test vehicles.

Okay. The final question, we're out of time here. The final question is going to be... Oh, the final question is going to be, what car brands from Big Time Ultimate Hater 6? What car brands do you not see making it in 10 years, excluding Fisker and Infinity? Fisker and Infinity. You got any others?

Car brands if we don't think will exist in 10 years. Yeah. Chrysler? Yeah. Dodge. No. They got to keep one, I guess. Lucid.

Oh. No, they got a ton of studying money. I'm not convinced that Lancha will exist as a brand in 10 years. Okay. Don't think it exists now. I don't think it exists now. will exist as France. I think DeSoto isn't going to be around.

Loso currently sells vehicles. They sell like one car into only Italians. Correct. And I don't think it's going to exist anymore. You're insane. I think a lot of the small like EV manufacturers that are popping up, I just don't see, there's just like. Like who? You're going to say Vinfast.

Don't say VinFest. They're conglomerate. They have amusement parks. You can get amused. Yeah, maybe they should stick to that. I agree with you about Chrysler. Mitsubishi, it's insane. Mississippi is insane.

Gotta go. I should kind of like the Alvander, but yeah. You're nuts. That's a trash car. That's a rogue. It's a rogue. It's a redskin road that looks better than a rogue. The rogue's also trash car, but you're right.

You know, they have the exact same tech, all the same switches. I'm aware. Same stuff. What do you think I am? Does Accurate continue? Yeah. Does Buick continue? That's got to stop.

At some point, that's got to stop. I think Buick continued. They came out with a bunch of new cars. They're all bad. No, they're all good. They're pretty good. But Buick is a brand. not going to succeed.

No, we'll be fine. The answer is several possibly, including Buick, Chrysler, Mitsubishi, and definitely Infinity. I wonder if Genesis will exist. Yeah, dude, they got like 50 cars now. They got the GV 90, according to him. He's already seen it. It's big.

Yeah, GV60, GV70, GV80, 60, whatever the regular 70. Is this a Dan? Yeah, whatever the 60 is. And then there's the coop that is currently Plasty dipped. Okay, that's it. We're done. We've gone over time. Goodbye, everyone. Thanks for listening.

Goodbye. Oh!